Discover the groundbreaking world of Emotional Brain Training (EBT) with Dr. Laurel Mellon, a distinguished retired professor from UCSF and an experienced nutritionist who offers insightful critiques of traditional psychotherapy. Dr. Mellon reveals how the mental health and obesity epidemics may share common roots in stress-induced neurophysiology, a topic often overlooked by conventional therapeutic approaches. Learn how EBT empowers individuals to erase harmful circuits, addressing the core of psychological and physiological issues through a method that promises long-lasting change.
Unpack the intricate ties between obesity and mental health as we explore the cycle driven by stress and emotional disconnection leading to food addiction. Hear a moving account of a mother's journey watching her daughter transform through EBT, a system designed to rewire the brain's stress response by accessing deep-seated emotional circuits. With an emphasis on reaching states of joy and compassion, EBT offers profound tools to navigate and transform negative emotions, providing relief from conditions like depression, anxiety, and eating disorders.
EBT is emerging as a powerful alternative to traditional therapies, promising a shift from short-term fixes to addressing root causes. Through intimate group sessions, individuals learn to rewire specific brain circuits, fostering emotional connections and holistic well-being. As EBT becomes more accessible globally, thanks to new funding and resources, Dr. Mellon's new book, "One, Two, Three, Joy," provides a comprehensive guide to this promising approach. Tune in to explore how EBT is set to revolutionize emotional health and well-being on a global scale.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Richard L. Blake (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Laughing Through the
Pain Navigating Wellness.
Today, we're going to find outwhether the mental health crisis
and the obesity crisis arecaused by the same thing, with
Dr Laurel Mellon.
Andy Esam (00:16):
Yeah, and I love the way she spoke about mental
health effectively beingphysiological.
I think we kind of think of themind and body as separate
entities quite a lot and she wasobviously very much pointing us
in the right direction thereand that it's not.
Richard L. Blake (00:33):
Yeah, and she talks a lot about the
ineffectiveness of traditionalpsychotherapy, something that I
have sort of seen firsthand andshe's diagnosed that problem and
she has a pretty goodprescription, which is this new
type of therapy ebt emotionalbrain training I'm I'm really
interested in actually yeah, I'mfascinated, I'm gonna read this
(00:53):
book and I may even do hertraining yeah, one, two, three
joy, and, and she did she's.
Andy Esam (00:59):
500 000 people have used it, which seems high to me,
but I mean, if it's aseffective as it seems to be, um,
it will grow exponentially, asshe, as she's hoping for yes,
well, she has a very impressivebackground.
Richard L. Blake (01:12):
Uh, she's a professor, was just retired from
being a professor at ucsfuniversity of california, san
francisco school of medicine,which is one of the top medical
schools in the world, by the way, and her background is as a
nutritionist.
But she then found this linkbetween nutrition and mental
health and, uh, yeah, obviouslyshe has a phd and she's written,
(01:34):
I think, 14 books, according toher amazon, so she's a highly
credentialed person yes, notlike, not unlike yourself rich.
Andy Esam (01:45):
I haven't written 14 books thank god uh, no, I
thought it's um.
Yes, it's brilliant.
As she said to us off air,she's sort of retired so she
could work more.
It seems like she's reallygoing for this and um in
retirement.
Very, very impressive, and I'msure it'll go places.
It sounds incredible.
Richard L. Blake (02:03):
Yeah, well she's convinced me, so hopefully
she'll get you too.
Listener, yeah, enjoy, hey,listener.
If you're enjoying the insightsand stories we share on our pod
, then don't miss out on any ofour episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
Andy Esam (02:27):
Dr Mellon, thank you for joining our podcast.
We're going to start off niceand easy for you.
What is wrong with currentpsychotherapy?
Dr Laurel Mellon (02:36):
Well, there's so much right with current
psychotherapy We've been doingthe best we can but there's a
missing link here that's veryfoundational, which is it's not
based on physiology, andessentially, psychology is based
on chemicals and electricity inthe body.
And when, in fact, thosechemicals and electricity due to
stress, are not optimal, that'swhen circuits form in the brain
(03:00):
that cause trauma, causeaddiction, cause mood problems
and cause most psychologicalproblems.
So, unfortunately, what'shappening with psychotherapy
right now is they have a lot oftalk therapies and a lot of
specific therapies for onecircuit or another that
someone's working on, but that'sreally not the problem.
Based on neurophysiology, theproblem that we're seeing that's
(03:23):
so rampant right now becausestress has not been treated is
that people are not able toactually rewire the circuits in
the brain that are emotionalcircuits.
They do not change withthoughts or decision-making or
even mindfulness.
They change with emotionaltools that actually roust out
those circuits from youramygdala, which is in your
(03:46):
emotional brain, which storesall of our life experiences, and
when you don't feel good andyou're stressed and you're
disconnected, people blamethemselves or want to analyze
what's wrong with them.
There's nothing wrong with you.
It's a circuit in youremotional brain and all you need
is the skills to switch offthat circuit and then use the
same tools over time to actuallyerase that circuit.
(04:09):
So you don't respond in thatway.
So the problem withpsychotherapy is it's not based
on neuroscience, andneuroscience is all about stress
physiology, because it's whenwe're in stress that we create
all these circuits, and so it'sthe missing link.
They're trying to treatsomething without the mechanism
in place to give people thepower to do a lot of this work
(04:31):
themselves and to make their ownwork as therapists so much
easier.
Because science is very pureand there are methods now
emotional brain training.
So people use simple skillseven that I've taught children
and they switch off thosecircuits in one or two minutes.
And that's what we want, and wewant to empower people to
realize these issues andproblems are endless.
(04:52):
If you just deal with them on acognitive level and don't go
into the amygdala with youremotional tools and rewire them,
you just substitute one problemfor another and another, rewire
them.
You just substitute one problemfor another and another, and so
people go to therapy foreverand they're not going to change
at a root level, because thesecircuits are physiologic and
when they're activated, whathappens is that they're
(05:14):
activated through no fault ofour own.
All of a sudden, you're out in aconversation with people and
something in your brain goes,ooh like this a circuit is
activated and you arebiochemically different.
Those biochemicals of stressthere's eight of them and they
fuel overeating and weight,obesity, diabetes, most chronic
diseases and most mental healthproblems.
(05:35):
And so people are beingbiochemically affected by these
circuits and instead of waitingand not doing anything about it
and then getting a lot ofmedications self-medicate,
naturally with emotional braintraining, there's tools where
you just you know you feel bad,you know it's biochemical,
you're driven or you feeldepressed or you feel you can't
(05:58):
find your joy.
What happens is you say it's acircuit.
You should switch off thatcircuit and then, once you've
learned to do that, any circuitsthat are really important in
your life maybe a depressioncircuit, or maybe a distancing
circuit, or maybe a food circuit, or an addiction, whatever,
that is, procrastination,whatever bothers you you can
then learn the skills to erasethat circuit so you have lasting
(06:20):
change.
And when you do that, over timethe brain stops being in the
stress habit which is called thestress set point, which is
called allostasis.
And in our work what we do ispeople stay with it until
they've rewired enough circuitsso their brain essentially goes,
defaults, to his position ofconnection, of flow, of optimal
(06:44):
physiology, and that's their newset point.
And when that happens on alllevels emotional, relational,
spiritual, behavioral, physicalthey are at their best and
that's what we call set pointone and that's the goal.
But you have to do three thingsFirst you have to learn how to
use your emotional pathways inyour brain so that you can get
(07:07):
from stress to that optimalstate of joy in a couple of
minutes.
And then you have to learn howto use the same tools with more
persistence until you notice thesymptom you don't like could be
overeating, it could be getting, you know, really negative, it
could be anxious or whatever.
Whatever that symptom is, itstops.
Richard L. Blake (07:37):
And when the symptom stops, you know you have
rewired the circuit and thenyou go on to the next circuit
until you have raised the setpoint of your brain, and that's
back to therapy.
Why do you think it's been sopopular and dominant in
healthcare systems if it's beenso ineffective?
Dr Laurel Mellon (07:53):
I think that it has been popular because it's
better than nothing and a bigpart of psychotherapy in fact,
overwhelmingly it's theemotional connection between the
therapist and the patient, andthen they add on various
different modalities, but by farpeople need to emotionally
connect with themselves andothers in order to heal, and
(08:16):
having a secure place to gowhere someone will listen to you
, where it'll be safe andsupportive, is enormously
helpful.
And all we're doing withemotional brain training is
tacking on to thatscientifically-based skills so
people can use it with others,with peers and with their EBT
provider.
So they can essentially getthat therapist in their pocket
(08:38):
all week long and aren'tcompletely dependent upon the
therapist.
They are able to have a guidethere to guide their way, to
stay with it and to use it well,but they have other people in
their small group that they canconnect with during the week.
So I think that there's a hugehunger for being seen, heard and
felt, and therapy does awonderful job of that, and we
(08:59):
want to keep all that's goodabout therapy but update it so
people get better results andare also empowered with the
skills so they are not dependenton the therapist.
They use that as a springboardfor their own emotional and
spiritual and physical evolution.
Andy Esam (09:16):
And so how did this new technique come about?
How did you come to findemotional brain training?
Dr Laurel Mellon (09:24):
Very slowly.
I'm 75 years old.
I have been working on this for45 years and I started by
getting lucky and I got afaculty position at the
University of California, sanFrancisco School of Medicine and
I was a nutritionist at thetime and this grant that I was
on for a long period of time,they didn't really know what to
(09:44):
do with me as a nutritionist, soI got to do what I wanted to do
.
What I wanted to do is find theroot cause of why people get
out of control, and particularlywith food.
And so I looked back in theliterature to 1940 and found an
article by Hildebrook, who was apsychiatrist at Baylor College
of Medicine in Texas, thatshowed it was about the
connection between people.
(10:05):
And I thought to myself I was28, really young and very.
I thought, oh well, that's noproblem, I will teach in the
clinic.
I will teach parents andchildren the tools of nurturing
and setting limits, in otherwords, to connect.
And of course, since I'm ascientist and I'm at the
university, words to connect andof course, since I'm a
(10:25):
scientist and I'm at theuniversity, what we have to do
is study it.
So we studied it and whathappened was we were surprised
that it was enormously effective.
And particularly, you know,obesity is a great way to study
intrapsychic phenomenon becauseit's really due to stress
chemicals.
If you're not in an environmentwhere you have a lot of
emotional connection and you'regetting your rewards met
physiologically in a healthy way, the easiest thing to do is to
(10:48):
reach for food.
It requires no effort and thenonce you start doing that, it
becomes pretty addictive, inthat the food itself makes
things worse.
So what we found with thesefamilies that we were teaching
this was they said what's goingon?
His mother came to me in thehall at UCSF and she said what
are you teaching to my daughter?
Because she used to be stealingmoney from my purse to go get
(11:09):
food and all she would thinkabout was food.
And now she has no use for food.
She wants to go out and play.
And I knew that I didn't knowwhy it worked in the brain and I
decided to dedicate myself tofinding out.
So we began that research.
It would take 30 years beforethe research confirming EBT
would come out, and once wemoved it to adults, then we
(11:32):
moved it to wellness and wemoved it to every health problem
, because under all theseproblems is physiologic stress.
But what was exciting was in2007, which was a while ago, my
mother was dying and I was alsoteaching medical students at the
university EBT, with mycolleague, igor Mitrovich, who's
(11:52):
a neuroscientist and aphysiologist.
In the meantime I went back toschool and, with my faculty job,
went ahead and became a healthpsychologist.
But here's what happens I waswaking up in the morning at
about 4 am and I was bonechillingly lonely.
I was alone in my house.
I realized my mother was dyingand the night, the day before,
(12:13):
the night before, I had beenteaching this class to the
medical students about thereward center and at that time
the method was three levels ofstress.
You know you get to balance andyou go to stress and there's
something in between.
And here I was feeling sotraumatized by all this going on
.
I realized that my method up tothat point was wrong.
There weren't three levels ofstress in the brain, there were
(12:37):
five, because I was in a traumastate at the time and none of
the tools were working, and alsoI knew that all of the tools
needed to go to joy.
It's not enough to be calm,because the stress response, the
HPA axis, does not shut offwith mediocre moods.
It best shuts off when we're inthat state of love or joy or
(13:01):
compassion or all that state ofneural integration.
So I had to stop everything fora number of years to move it to
a five-point system and then,once I did that which we now
have with emotional braintraining, it took another 10
years to get it so thatindividuals could rewire their
own trauma circuits, because theemotional brain does all sorts
(13:22):
of things to avoid rewiring them.
And so we found ways to useprecision EBT it's called so
that even regular people can goin and be in our groups and you
learn how to use the app so thatthey can bring up a memory and
then safely dip down, activatethat circuit with stress.
You have to stress, activatethe circuit just for a moment.
(13:45):
That unlocks the synapticconnections between the neurons
and whatever is done in the nexttwo to four hours updates the
circuit.
So this is what is so out ofdate with so much of the
therapies.
They're looking to calm people,and that's really helpful,
because if you start to feelyour feelings when you're
(14:05):
stressed and you don't haveemotional brain training, in
other words, these provenpathways of emotions, you get
stuck.
It's not safe to feel yourdepression or your anxiety or
whatever, because in fact,that's why we eat, drink, spend
or do whatever we have.
We want to get away from thatbecause it feels like we're
going to be annihilated.
Expand or do whatever we have.
We want to get away from thatbecause it feels like we're
(14:26):
going to be annihilated.
And so in the past, it wasreasonable not to feel our
feelings because we needed a wayto drop down into whatever
misery was going on, whateverbad feelings are going on, and
then we had to simply get rightout of it.
Within a minute you get out ofthat state and that's what EBT
allows you to do to dip downinto the bottom of your brain,
spark the aliveness of thatcircuit, the exact circuit
(14:47):
that's making you feel bad.
Even a brain scan cannot findthe circuit that's making us
depressed or making us overeator making us do whatever.
All you have to do is use youremotions and, because of
evolutionary biology is based onadaptation, based on being able
to have plasticity in yourbrain so that you can change
(15:10):
your response to differingenvironments.
So the brain's set up for this.
But you can't be cognitive.
You have to release, control,use the emotional skills say
complain a little bit, reallycomplain for about 20 seconds
about something.
(15:31):
Use the emotional process of VBTstraight down into the bottom
of the brain, activate thatcircuit.
It will tell you exactly what'sthe message is in that circuit
that's in the unconscious mind.
Once you have those exact words, you are off and running,
because you can use those wordsto actually confront the circuit
and erase it.
So it used to be that youdidn't want to feel your
feelings.
Now you have the tools.
(15:51):
You have the pathways in yourbrain, in your app, with your
group, you can dip down,activate that circuit and then
change it to whatever newmessage you want.
So you are in control wow,amazing.
Richard L. Blake (16:06):
I love the how you explain things.
You know how people don't wantto feel their feelings and and
how there's that threat ofannihilation.
That's definitely something Ifelt.
I I had an eating disorder whenI was younger and depression
and anxiety, and I think that'sreally interesting, that you
have linked, you know, the food,the obesity crisis and the
(16:27):
mental health crisis.
So do you think the growingobesity problem, the growing
mental health crisis?
So do you think the growingobesity problem, the growing
mental health crisis, what doyou think is causing these
increases?
Dr Laurel Mellon (16:35):
I think that there's just unlimited amounts
of proof to show that the stressresponse was not appropriate
for our life today.
It was essentially evolved fora very different kind of life,
where you're not having constantpsychological probes to get
stressed, and so our stressresponse overreacts to stressful
(16:56):
situations that are really notthreatening, but they're
perceived as threatening, andthen it encodes wires in our
amygdala so that we repeat thatprocess over and over again.
What's important is to say yes,it repeats that response, but
the response is biochemical.
So let me give you the exampleof obesity.
What's going on right now ishorrific, and what's going on is
(17:20):
that people are self-medicatingwith food, and once you start
doing that, it's hard to stopbecause the circuits in your
brain are pointing in onedirection food, food, food.
And essentially, when you'restressed and have these food
circuits in your amygdala, itactivates eight chemicals that
are the proven chemicals tocause obesity.
They're all stress related.
(17:41):
So what happens is that whenyou are stressed, what happens
is the cortisol will make youhungry, the dopamine will make
you crave those foods, theleptin will make you store
whatever you're eating as fat,so you cannot lose weight, and
then there's drained serotonincauses the kind of foods you're
(18:02):
attracted to or increase insulin.
Then there's PYY and there'sGLP-1 and there's ghrelin.
So these are the eightchemicals.
All of them are controlled bystress.
Ebt is the only method otherthan weight loss surgery that
has been shown in clinicaltrials published in
peer-reviewed journals to notonly cause people to lose weight
, but to keep it off aftertreatment ends.
(18:23):
That means we got to the rootcause in the brain.
Now, so what happens?
Enter the pharmaceuticalcompanies and they say oh, we
understand that there's eightdifferent chemicals that make
people gain weight and regainthe weight afterwards and crave
foods.
And we're going to take one ofthem and we're going to engineer
it GLP-1, and then we're goingto charge you a lot of money for
(18:44):
it.
What it's going to do is withEBT.
It's natural.
As you rewire your stress center, what happens is people stop
overeating.
We used to have informationabout food available for people.
No one uses it Because when thebiochemical drives shut off
(19:04):
because you've changed all ofthose stress chemicals, you lose
your interest.
It's like a love affair, likeif you had this wonderful love
affair and you just were just soinfatuated with this person and
then, two years later, you lookback and you say what did I
think?
What was I thinking?
That person isn't the mostdesirable person on earth.
And the same thing that happenswith food.
When you rewire the circuit,the love affair is over, because
(19:25):
this is why You're getting yourchemical needs met for reward
and safety, naturally from yourown brain.
And if they're not met, whathappens is we do get a survival
drive to do something, to feelrewarded and safe, and again
food is the way to do it.
Or if you can't do that, youget a shot.
(19:47):
You get an injection of onechemical GLP-1, which makes most
people nauseated, doesn't.
You can't do that, you get ashot.
You get an injection of onechemical GLP-1, which makes most
people nauseated, doesn't workin the long term and makes
people dependent upon somethingthat's really not going to solve
their problem, when all theyreally have to do is rewire
those circuits and they havelasting and profound change and
not these other symptoms.
But the only side effect ofsymptoms of EBT is a lot of joy.
(20:09):
You have to learn how to be injoy.
Andy Esam (20:13):
I had a question.
It's probably a bit basic, but,as Rich will tell you, I like a
basic question Emotional braintraining, I mean.
Presumably you're helpingpeople to actually recognize
their emotions as well, becauseI think I've come across plenty
of people who can't actuallyspot their own emotions.
Dr Laurel Mellon (20:29):
Great, that is true, but we go one step
further.
The reason that knowing youremotions are so important is
because then you figure out whatyou need.
If you know how you feel, youcan figure out what you need.
But in the day of stressoverload which is our life now,
the speed of change that's goingon, the information overload,
(20:51):
the temptations, we are livingin a very stressful environment
and where there's no turningback.
But most of us are not inwhat's called a homeostatic
state, in other words, aconnected state.
There's a tendency for us toeither be low and then medicate
for our anxiety or depression,or just go numb or go to a false
(21:13):
high, and in no circumstanceare we really looking at our
accurate feelings.
So what we've done is to sayit's great to know your feelings
if you're in a brain state thatthey're accurate.
So let me just describe to youwhat goes on with EBT.
There are five levels of stressin the brain and emotions are
very different at each stresslevel and the brain area in
(21:35):
charge is different.
So let's just go to the top ofyour head.
If you put your finger on themiddle of your forehead, that's
brain state one.
When you're there, all thehappy memories are there, all of
your feelings are beautiful.
They're like love andcompassion and hope and
forgiveness, and awe and joy.
You don't have any needs.
Then go down to just above youreyebrow.
That's brain state two.
(21:56):
You feel not great, but youfeel good.
In that state you are connected.
You are still what's called inhomeostasis.
All the chemicals are healthy,you feel good, but you don't
feel rewarded.
Now go down to your cheekbones.
You're now at brain state three.
Now this is the process that isnot homeostatic and healthy,
where the feelings flicker andthey're accurate.
(22:17):
Knowing how you feel reallymatters.
Now the feelings go haywire.
The limbic brain is in charge.
You're feeling a littlestressed.
Then down further, then thenumber four.
You're feeling definitelystressed, you're feeling
depressed and bad, and thelimbic brain starts, the
reptilian brain starts to takeover and then down at five.
You are in overload.
So three, four and five.
(22:38):
What happens with EBT is there'svery simple tools that will you
say.
I'm at three, I use the toolfor brain state three and it
spirals me up to one.
I use the tool at brain statefour.
It's called the cycle tool.
It spirals me up to one andthen the one at five spirals it
to one.
So we use emotions to.
(22:58):
What we know is if we're instress.
What our real need is toprocess our emotion in this
highly effective, quick way.
So we get back to a state wherewe really can tell our deepest
emotions and what we really need.
So that is the new stressmanagement.
Stress management is not onesize fits all.
Knowing what you feel, so youknow what you need.
(23:18):
That works at brain state oneor two, but we have to have the
whole compliment.
There's five different toolsfor five different brain states
and then you are solid for therest of your life because you
can control your physiology andyour emotions, thoughts and
behaviors just by using thesetools.
Richard L. Blake (23:35):
Amazing, and you mentioned trials there.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout the evidence?
How robust is it?
What kind of effect size haveyou seen?
How does it compare to existingtreatments in the results?
Dr Laurel Mellon (23:47):
There are only I think at this point 14
studies on EBT and those studiesare impressive for a couple of
reasons.
Number one that they showlasting change which has never
been shown before.
In two studies we have a twoand a 13-month, two-year and
six-year follow-up and whathappens is that people learn the
(24:10):
skills they change their brain.
And when they change theirbrain, what happens is they get
lasting effects because they'vechanged their physiology,
because all of psychology andhealth is based on physiology
and these circuits control it.
So, number one lasting changeafter treatment ends.
When I was a young woman, youhad to have five-year follow-up
(24:32):
or they wouldn't even look atyou.
Now no one even talks aboutthat because nothing is working,
everything is short-term,because they're not going to the
physiologic root cause.
We want everyone to keep allthe methods they have now and
just bolt on EBT as foundationalto the health.
The other thing that's veryimpressive about EBT is you know
a lot of people talk about CBTbeing effective and it is not
(24:55):
effective.
It is effective for oneparticular problem you have in
the short term, and you knowwhat, as a consumer, that
doesn't work very well becauseit means you have to stick with
it.
But the reason it does not workvery well is because it doesn't
go to the physiologic rootcause, so it doesn't generalize.
So it's both not generalizingand not lasting.
(25:17):
So this is what happens withEBT.
Someone comes in.
Let's say their doctor says youshould lose weight and we say,
great, okay, come to, you shouldgo to EBT.
So they go to EBT and we saywe're happy to help you, but
your job is to be in this smallgroup.
The emotional brain requiresemotional connection.
So we've made that affordableand fun by having these
(25:38):
telephone groups.
So you go to your group and thefirst thing you do is you
rewire one problem and then yousay, oh my gosh, I just rewired
food, or oh, I just rewiredanxiety.
And then you say, oh my gosh, Ijust rewired food, or oh, I
just rewired anxiety, and youknow the difference.
And then you say you know, butthere's more circuits, and so
you rewire several of them thatbother you and then you begin to
get lasting change becauseyou've changed the set point in
(26:00):
the brain.
But our research shows thiswhatever someone comes in for,
they can solve that, becausethey can go right to that
circuit and rewire it, butbecause they stay with the
program to have a more globaleffect.
What we find is that they haveimprovements in all domains of
life, whether it's relationshipsor mood or health.
(26:21):
So when it generalizes, itmeans, in contrast to CBT, where
you have to pinpoint the exactthing you want to change, in
contrast to CBT, where you haveto pinpoint the exact thing you
want to change.
Here you are, you know you canrewire circuits that are really
triggering you, but in generalwe're changing all of physiology
so you are protected to havegreater well-being and prevent
some problems because your wholephysiology is different.
(26:43):
So I would say the tworemarkable parts of this is
post-treatment improvements thatlast and changes that are broad
spectrum, not just focus on oneissue or problem.
So people feel overall likethey have a new life.
Andy Esam (26:59):
And you mentioned the follow-up trials, but in terms
of the initial rewiring and thegroup training, what sort of
timescales are we talking aboutthere?
Dr Laurel Mellon (27:08):
Well, when we come in, please appreciate that
most people don't know about EBT.
We only have 500,000 peoplewho've ever used it, so it's
relatively given that it's ascientific breakthrough in
medicine.
It's relatively unknown and weknow that.
Everyone comes in and they haveto learn first of all.
I don't have problems, I justhave circuits.
(27:29):
So the initial knee-jerkreaction that people have when
they don't feel good is why?
And why is a four-letter word?
Because asking yourself whyputs your neocortex in charge,
which we don't want to do.
We want the neocortex to be incharge of figuring out what
stress level you're at orwhether you're rewiring or not.
So they first need to learn alittle bit about that.
(27:51):
You don't have problems, youjust have wires and so reframe
it.
And they also learn about howto use the pathways in the brain
.
There are five differentpathways and it's a little
unnerving at first.
The most common reaction whenthey say what just happened to
me?
I felt bad and now I feel good.
I've never had that happen inone to two minutes.
(28:12):
So we don't want to scare thebrain.
So the first month people are intheir group.
They're just trying to get thewhole idea down of what they're
doing, and then we encouragethem to go right into rewiring
four major circuits, usually amood, a relationship pattern, a
habit, and then one other eithera body image or work stress and
(28:32):
they narrow in the next monthor sometimes two months if they
want to go at a slower pace.
They do that and then the restof the program.
Their set point is really highand they just do a kind of a
clean house and clear out otherfear, memories, other situations
, have a cohesive narrative oftheir life and raise their set
points.
So their brain is wired forhigher purpose and so the
program can take six months.
(28:53):
It can take a year.
Some people like to go slowly.
It's all been studied for solong.
It's a video program, so youjust go through the videos and
you learn something every dayand you use the app to spiral up
out of stress and you're withyour group and so people take it
at their own pace.
Andy Esam (29:08):
And the emphasis on group is that, just so it
reaches more people.
Dr Laurel Mellon (29:12):
No, the app is amazing.
People just go in and they lovethe app.
We don't let anyone have theapp.
The reason we don't let anyonehave the app is because it would
be out of integrity.
We have a tremendous amount ofdata that supports.
When people get in a smallgroup where they have other
brains there, you know thateveryone has the same goal
(29:32):
raising their set point rightand they help each other with
these community connections.
We had five minutes using yourapp with another person.
Listening transforms the brainand so, without that other
person listening, the tools workvery well on your own.
Most people use most of thetime.
They do it about 10 times a day.
It takes a minute.
It works, but having thatperson listen not only creates
(29:56):
loving connection, which we allneed, but it helps.
The tools go all the way downto the trauma circuits in the
brain and so, if you think aboutyour brain as being a chest of
drawers or a file cabinet, thenumber one memories, all the
great memories, are in the topdrawer and all the trauma
memories are in the bottomdrawer.
(30:17):
We all have some things in thebottom drawer.
To be able to stay present toyour emotion, using these
scientific, simple toolsrequires emotional connection.
So when someone's listening toyou, instead of getting down to
the fourth drawer of the brainand rewiring that circuit, you
get down to the fifth drawer ofthe brain, the very bottom.
(30:38):
We've also learned that thesetrauma circuits and again I'm
not talking about having beenonly in a traumatic childhood,
although that's included too butalso the brain perceives stress
, even with slightdisconnections or misattunements
.
So it's normal for everyone tohave some of these five circuits
(30:59):
.
If you use EBT just forself-regulation, it is
enormously effective and peopleuse it their whole life.
You know people, these groups.
They continue to use it forself-regulation.
But if you don't get the fivecircuits, they live there and
they get bigger and stronger andyou think you're on a false
high.
You think everything's fine,but you have this feeling that
(31:21):
you're a little bit on edge andthen boom, those circuits hit
and you're overeating, overdrinking, distancing, judging
all the things that comenormally and naturally from
stressful experiences, when wehaven't rewired the circuit.
So what that means is we wanteveryone to be in an environment
where they can get their fivecircuits and get the job done,
(31:41):
and that requires eitherone-on-one therapy.
But it turns out that ourstudies, for example at
University of Kentucky, showedthat it was the number of these
little connections that you doon your app by phone with
someone who's a groupmate thatyou know.
There's only six people in agroup.
You know them because they'reall working together over this
period of time.
When people do that, theirhealth status changes.
(32:05):
They love EBT and they lose theweight and they improve their
lives and they stay with it forone year.
The average person stays inthese groups for one year
because it is so powerful andeffective and this is the great
part it is fun.
You know how traditionalpsychotherapy is.
Oh, what's wrong with me andwhat are my issues and what are
(32:26):
my problems.
People come into EBT when I geton the phone because they're
all phone groups so that it'seasy to get into.
So I get on the phone andeveryone's laughing and
everyone's talking and I said,okay, who wants to do some work
today on rewiring a circuit?
And then when someone rewires acircuit, we have a little party
, people clap and celebrate.
So in other words, this isempowering people to take
(32:48):
control of their lives in abrand new way that's not only
scientific and affordable, butit is fun to do.
It's fun to be in power.
It's fun to have that control.
Richard L. Blake (33:00):
And your understanding of trauma.
Trauma is something that comesup a lot on this podcast because
I think it's become the conceptcreep.
Trauma has become anything andeveryone has it, apparently, and
I don't necessarily agree withthat.
So your understanding of traumahow does it happen in the brain
and how can we avoid trauma aswell?
Dr Laurel Mellon (33:23):
Well, there's some great ways to do that.
First of all, trauma is anallostatic circuit.
Some great ways to do that.
First of all, trauma is anallostatic circuit.
Okay, so stay with me for asecond.
All of EBT is enormously deep,but it's very simple.
So let me just tell you thesimplicity of it.
There are only two kinds ofcircuits in the amygdala.
There is a homeostatic,effective circuit that makes you
(33:44):
healthy and happy, and there'san ineffective allostatic
circuit that makes you sick,including the trauma circuits.
Okay, so these allostaticcircuits this is physiology, not
psychology, it's completelyaccepted the allostatic circuits
have no shutoff valves, so whenthey get activated they have to
(34:07):
wear themselves out and becausethey're so strong biochemically
and they have no shutoff valves, they can make for a really bad
day or a really bad week whenthey get activated.
So there's two kinds ofcircuits.
What we're doing in EBT isactivating the allostatic
circuits of the person's choice.
They do it and they'reessentially rewiring it into a
(34:28):
homeostatic circuit.
Okay, that's what they're doing.
That's the overall plan, untilthe set point is in connection
and homeostasis.
Then, within those allostaticcircuits, there are two kinds.
There is a survival circuit,which is the most fun kind.
A survival circuit is againbiological.
That's been studied a lot at AUby Ledoux, joseph Ledoux.
(34:51):
But this is what it is.
It's real simple.
When I got one of them when Iwas 11, I'd been ridiculed at
school.
I came home I was reallyembarrassed I didn't know how to
talk about my feelings with mymother counter.
There was cinnamon rolls withthe white frosting on them and I
(35:12):
reached for the cinnamon rollsand I ate three of them.
Okay, this is important.
And I was ashamed because wewere you know that was you're
not supposed to eat food withoutpermission in our family.
So, but I didn't know that inthat moment what had happened in
my brain was essentially astress response.
A fight or flight circuit agargantuan fight or flight
(35:32):
circuit was activated and thenthis little tiny food circuit
got hooked in with it.
So if in that moment I had usedEBT and processed my emotions,
by the end of the day thatcircuit would have been
dismantled, I would have gone tobed that night and I would
still have a healthyrelationship with food.
I didn't know that.
(35:53):
So by the time I woke up thenext morning because the
circuits are stored byhippocampus into long-term
memory at night what happenedwas.
I had a food problem.
The same thing, I got adepression circuit that way.
Okay, these are called survivalcircuits and what they do is
they activate strong reactivedrives to repeat whatever we did
when we were in stress.
(36:13):
So if we were even stressoverloaded, to that extent,
that's a trauma circuit, okay.
So when people first come intoEBT they rewire the four of them
, because four of these survivalcircuits are what caused their
lives to be out of control.
But trauma is a little bit morethan that.
It's not only can be thatcircuit.
So there's a survival circuitwhich is a false association
(36:36):
between fight or flight drive toget something that's not going
to meet our need.
That becomes compulsive andaddictive.
The other is a core circuitwhich they do a lot of in CBT,
but they just don't go to thedeep level like we do in EBT.
Let's say, in a moment I was infront of my house when I was
four years old.
My brother, because he wasolder, got to go across the
(36:56):
street with his friends and Iwas left out.
I had to sit there, stand therein the front yard and my brain
encoded I am bad.
Okay, a moment when I felt badgot encoded in my brain as a
core circuit that generalizes toI'm always bad.
Now, you hear a lot about thisin CBT, but they keep it on a
thinking brain level and thecircuit is not in the top drawer
(37:20):
of the brain, it's in the fourand five level and you've got to
activate it, or the circuitstress.
Activate it just for ananosecond or it won't rewire.
So in trauma, let's say there'sa traumatic situation and what
happened was someone probablygot something they did during
that time.
They reached for food or theyreached for judgment, or they
shut down emotionally orwhatever it is.
(37:42):
There'd be a survival circuitthere.
There could also be a few ofthese core circuits like I am
bad or I'm not worthy, and therecould also be a few fear
memories.
So in EBT, this is how we workit.
I don't believe that we shouldrewire everything in our brain.
Who has the time?
Life is not perfect and we havea lot of fun that we need to
have, and so when people come inand they have something that
(38:08):
bothers them let's say it's foodwhat happens is you rewire the
food circuit, but embeddedwithin the program are other
tools, like the travel back tool, and you find out when you
actually use this tool to goback to when it was encoded and
have a reattachment experience,a reattachment experience to
rewire it.
If there's any othermiscellaneous clutter, we call
it clutter.
We call it clutter because it'semotional clutter, because we
(38:31):
make it fun, right.
And if there's any othercircuits down there, you just
use the same exact tools.
There are only five tools toclear it, so that you take the
suppressed emotions and youquickly turn them into emotions
that are healthy and normal andthe tension goes out of your
body.
You feel emotionally lighter.
So that's how we rewire trauma.
(38:52):
They're basically five circuits, but they can have other
circuits associated with it andyou have the tools in EBT.
If there are other fear,memories or other core circuits,
you rewire them too until thesymptom goes away.
So we never judge the symptom.
It's coherent in the circuit.
If your circuit is telling youto do that, don't try to stop
(39:12):
overeating.
It's just a circuit.
Understand that.
It makes perfect sense.
You'd be doing that.
Go back to that circuit, rewireit and you rewire it until you
don't have the symptom anymore.
And then you know you're home,free and the changes are lasting
to that circuit.
Rewire it and you rewire ituntil you don't have the symptom
anymore, and then you knowyou're home free and the changes
are lasting.
Richard L. Blake (39:27):
And does it work for compulsions as well,
like OCD?
Dr Laurel Mellon (39:32):
Yes, so essentially OCD is a whole bunch
of survival circuits.
So over and over again we'retriggered and then, once it's
also there could be some corecircuits there.
But that pattern of OCD isproblematic to people, just like
being addicted to alcohol orfood or being addicted to
numbness, whatever that is thecircuits.
(39:53):
This is why it's so simple andwhy we train mental health
professionals in this prettyquickly, because it's very
simple.
You know we have all these waysin psychology and diagnostics
to look at 278 or whatevernumber of diagnoses they are,
but they really comebiologically down to these
circuits and anyone can learnthe skills to take charge of
(40:14):
their circuits.
Obviously it's better done witha health professional who can
emotionally connect, and that'swhy we want all mental health
professionals to be certified inEbt, because that emotional
connection and that stability isgoing to essentially help them
go deeper into the circuits inthe bottom of the brain and have
a more complete experience well, I about the training.
Richard L. Blake (40:37):
I'm actually thinking maybe this is something
I should look into, something Ishould add on to my training
how, how does the training work?
How long does it take?
Do you need to be licensed insome way?
Dr Laurel Mellon (40:48):
First and foremost, we are trying to
license as many mental healthprofessionals as possible.
We believe in the power of therelationship between the
therapist and the participantand in order to have an
authentic relationship, thetherapist needs to use the tools
.
Because you're speaking fromyour own experience.
The first time you rewire acircuit and everybody has them,
(41:10):
you say, oh my gosh.
And then there's a new energyto wanting to share it with
other people and it's more of anequal relationship where you're
the guide, but you're also ableto say you know, I rewired my
circuit here and there, so thetherapist doesn't have to be
this perfect person, becauseinstead it's more authentic than
that.
So it takes a distance learningof three hours a week, plus
(41:31):
some listening to tapes andreading science on the side, for
four months to get the basicskills of what we call the EBT
algorithm for neurophysiologicresilience.
Okay, so to get that algorithmso that you can go in and give
that therapy to anyone.
You start very similarly to howyou would start now as a
(41:54):
therapist, and that is, you takea moment and you say how can I
help?
You listen to them, talk aboutwhat's bothering them, but then
you shift gears and you havethem find the circuit and
express the emotions prettyrapidly.
So it's very compatible fortherapists.
And then, if you want to do theentire program and raise your
set point, you can continue foranother six months and that gets
(42:15):
done.
So, yeah, we don't.
It's interesting.
What we don't do is we don'tgive the app out, because it
doesn't work without humanconnection and so you need at
least to be in a group and thenyou get the app and you get
actually daily drop-in emotionalsupport groups.
Andy Esam (42:30):
So it's comprehensive services and we don't train
health professionals in itunless they are willing to do
the work themselves, becausethen they have that authenticity
and they have that integrity ofbeing able to share their
experience, so doing the workyourselves.
I think you mentioned 500,000people have used the technique.
(42:51):
How widely available is itcurrently?
Dr Laurel Mellon (43:00):
It's currently not very widely available and I
will blame myself for that,because I'll go back to some of
my own emotional clutter, whichis in 2007,.
We had EBT all over the countryand I realized that it could be
damaging to people because theself-regulatory tools are so
effective that they put peopleon a false high, and unless we
can get down to the bottom ofthe brain and have everybody
rewiring their trauma circuits,that is out of integrity.
(43:24):
So I shut down the whole thingand it was then completely
reconfigured, based onneurophysiology and
evidence-based practices.
And then we found out thatstill people were having a hard
time with the circuits that werereally deep in their brain, and
so we discovered what's calledprecision EBT, and then we
(43:44):
decided people had needed.
It's too expensive for people,so we decided to make the groups
less expensive and give morecomprehensive services, and so
we're now at a point with EBTthat my perfectionism and my my
word is that I don't want tohurt anyone and that I want
everyone to be able to get tothe bottom of their brain is we
(44:04):
receive $500,000 from a gratefulpatient.
One of the things that EBT doesbest is relationships, because
relationships can only get tointimacy at brain state one and
at brain state two they'retransactional I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine and atset point three, four and five,
(44:25):
we really treat ourselves andothers like objects.
And so we have several peoplewho have donated quite a bit of
money to EBT saying every humanbeing on earth should have these
skills, and they came not fromweight people lose weight and
keep it off but from savingtheir family.
And so we had the funds to dothe research to make EBT very
(44:46):
precise and very inexpensive,and that's what we're doing now,
and so that's why I'm here withyou today is we're at the point
now where we want everyone tohave it.
Richard L. Blake (44:54):
Amazing, Amazing.
So how going forward then?
How do you see this rolling out?
Dr Laurel Mellon (44:59):
I see it rolling out in an interesting
way, because we have lots ofpeople at UCSF and at other
universities who say, laurel,you're the only one that's
applied.
The science that people haveworked for years Bench science
has to get out.
And I think what is going tohappen now that we have covered
all our bases, I think that it'sjust a matter of it's going to
(45:20):
explode Because, right, and Ibelieve, the emotional brain is
also the spiritual brain.
It's the seat of the soul andthis work, when you connect to
the, to yourself emotionally andspiritually, what happens is
I'm getting goose pimples, justsaying it these emotions like
love and forgiveness, and hope,and and these emotions start
flowing and people feelcompletely differently and they
(45:44):
know that they have the skillsto create that by choice, not
chance.
And so what I believe hashappened to EBT is what's
happened is it wasn't going toreally get into the mainstream
for all people until the timewas perfect, emotionally and
spiritually.
Okay, and this world is now sohurting and we have topped out.
(46:07):
We can't make any moremedications.
We're now making medications totreat medications and
therapists are exhausted becauseeveryone's going to therapy and
it's very hard on the therapistbecause all of that stress
comes into the therapist's brainand it's like the whole world
is screaming that this is theperfect time for EBT.
So I believe in how the worldworks, is all perfect in its own
(46:32):
way, and this is EBT's time.
Andy Esam (46:35):
Wow, that's an amazing way to finish and I wish
you all the very best with it.
But before we let you go, canyou let us know where to find
you?
Dr Laurel Mellon (46:44):
Yes, it's very easy to find me.
It's Emotional Brain Training,is EBT, just like food stamps in
the US ebtorg.
It's also called ebtconnectnet,but ebt like food stamps org.
That's where the portal is,where you can get all of the
(47:04):
program, all of the support andthe app and the entire
experience.
I also have a new book out,which is One, two, three, joy.
It's actually about weight loss, but I wrote it for all
audiences because anyone who'sinterested in the science and
practice of EBT.
I documented everything there.
So in one book you will seeeverything and probably more
than you want.
(47:24):
But there's stories, there'slots of different tools and so
that 123joy, but mainly come toebtorg.
It also is ebtconnectnet and wewill greet you there and you
can get right into a group andyou can start making some magic
with these tools.
Andy Esam (47:40):
Fabulous Well, thanks again for giving us your time
and yeah, it certainly soundsamazing.
We'll be following yourprogress very keenly.
Dr Laurel Mellon (47:48):
Well, and I'm so grateful to you for inviting
me.
It was a pleasure.
Richard L. Blake (47:52):
Yeah, it's great to have you.
Thank you very much.
Dr Laurel Mellon (47:55):
Thank you very much.
Andy Esam (48:02):
Welcome back.
I am sure you found that asfascinating as we all did.
One thing I particularly likedis the um normality of these
circuits and the fact thateveryone's got them and we're
all um shaped in a very similarway, and there is something we
can do about it every single oneof us and it only takes two
minutes.
Richard L. Blake (48:23):
Yeah, it sounds amazingly quick and I
love the guideposts.
It's kind of like a map ofoneself.
I feel like when people arestruggling with their mental
health they feel lost orcertainly I felt lost and a lot
of my clients do too.
And when you give people a, amapping system, a protocol, it
(48:44):
can just be so relieving thatyou, you know you're not so lost
in the wilderness.
And it sounds like ebt is isdoing exactly that.
Andy Esam (48:53):
Yeah, I'm going to be very keen to uh follow the
progress because I think it willgrow exponentially absolutely
yeah, yes.
Richard L. Blake (49:01):
So, listener, go, go check out dr melon.
Uh, ebtorg, ebtorg.
And yeah, let us know what youthink if this is something you
want to try, we we would love tohear all your thoughts on the
podcast.
You can reach us on oninstagram, you can find andy at
andy esam and you can find me atthe Breath Geek and there's
(49:24):
also a feature now.
You can reply on Apple Podcasts.
You can send us direct messages.
So, send us a direct message ifyou have any thoughts or
questions, and we'd love to hearfrom you and thanks again for
Dr Mellon's time Fascinating yesabsolutely All right and thank
you, listener.
We will see you soon.
Bye-bye, see.
Hello and welcome to Laughing Through the
Pain Navigating Wellness.
Today, we're going to find outwhether the mental health crisis
and the obesity crisis arecaused by the same thing, with
Dr Laurel Mellon.
Andy Esam (00:16):
Yeah, and I love the way she spoke about mental
health effectively beingphysiological.
I think we kind of think of themind and body as separate
entities quite a lot and she wasobviously very much pointing us
in the right direction thereand that it's not.
Richard L. Blake (00:33):
Yeah, and she talks a lot about the
ineffectiveness of traditionalpsychotherapy, something that I
have sort of seen firsthand andshe's diagnosed that problem and
she has a pretty goodprescription, which is this new
type of therapy ebt emotionalbrain training I'm I'm really
interested in actually yeah, I'mfascinated, I'm gonna read this
(00:53):
book and I may even do hertraining yeah, one, two, three
joy, and, and she did she's.
Andy Esam (00:59):
500 000 people have used it, which seems high to me,
but I mean, if it's aseffective as it seems to be, um,
it will grow exponentially, asshe, as she's hoping for yes,
well, she has a very impressivebackground.
Richard L. Blake (01:12):
Uh, she's a professor, was just retired from
being a professor at ucsfuniversity of california, san
francisco school of medicine,which is one of the top medical
schools in the world, by the way, and her background is as a
nutritionist.
But she then found this linkbetween nutrition and mental
health and, uh, yeah, obviouslyshe has a phd and she's written,
(01:34):
I think, 14 books, according toher amazon, so she's a highly
credentialed person yes, notlike, not unlike yourself rich.
Andy Esam (01:45):
I haven't written 14 books thank god uh, no, I
thought it's um.
Yes, it's brilliant.
As she said to us off air,she's sort of retired so she
could work more.
It seems like she's reallygoing for this and um in
retirement.
Very, very impressive, and I'msure it'll go places.
It sounds incredible.
Richard L. Blake (02:03):
Yeah, well she's convinced me, so hopefully
she'll get you too.
Listener, yeah, enjoy, hey,listener.
If you're enjoying the insightsand stories we share on our pod
, then don't miss out on any ofour episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
Andy Esam (02:27):
Dr Mellon, thank you for joining our podcast.
We're going to start off niceand easy for you.
What is wrong with currentpsychotherapy?
Dr Laurel Mellon (02:36):
Well, there's so much right with current
psychotherapy We've been doingthe best we can but there's a
missing link here that's veryfoundational, which is it's not
based on physiology, andessentially, psychology is based
on chemicals and electricity inthe body.
And when, in fact, thosechemicals and electricity due to
stress, are not optimal, that'swhen circuits form in the brain
(03:00):
that cause trauma, causeaddiction, cause mood problems
and cause most psychologicalproblems.
So, unfortunately, what'shappening with psychotherapy
right now is they have a lot oftalk therapies and a lot of
specific therapies for onecircuit or another that
someone's working on, but that'sreally not the problem.
Based on neurophysiology, theproblem that we're seeing that's
(03:23):
so rampant right now becausestress has not been treated is
that people are not able toactually rewire the circuits in
the brain that are emotionalcircuits.
They do not change withthoughts or decision-making or
even mindfulness.
They change with emotionaltools that actually roust out
those circuits from youramygdala, which is in your
(03:46):
emotional brain, which storesall of our life experiences, and
when you don't feel good andyou're stressed and you're
disconnected, people blamethemselves or want to analyze
what's wrong with them.
There's nothing wrong with you.
It's a circuit in youremotional brain and all you need
is the skills to switch offthat circuit and then use the
same tools over time to actuallyerase that circuit.
(04:09):
So you don't respond in thatway.
So the problem withpsychotherapy is it's not based
on neuroscience, andneuroscience is all about stress
physiology, because it's whenwe're in stress that we create
all these circuits, and so it'sthe missing link.
They're trying to treatsomething without the mechanism
in place to give people thepower to do a lot of this work
(04:31):
themselves and to make their ownwork as therapists so much
easier.
Because science is very pureand there are methods now
emotional brain training.
So people use simple skillseven that I've taught children
and they switch off thosecircuits in one or two minutes.
And that's what we want, and wewant to empower people to
realize these issues andproblems are endless.
(04:52):
If you just deal with them on acognitive level and don't go
into the amygdala with youremotional tools and rewire them,
you just substitute one problemfor another and another, rewire
them.
You just substitute one problemfor another and another, and so
people go to therapy foreverand they're not going to change
at a root level, because thesecircuits are physiologic and
when they're activated, whathappens is that they're
(05:14):
activated through no fault ofour own.
All of a sudden, you're out in aconversation with people and
something in your brain goes,ooh like this a circuit is
activated and you arebiochemically different.
Those biochemicals of stressthere's eight of them and they
fuel overeating and weight,obesity, diabetes, most chronic
diseases and most mental healthproblems.
(05:35):
And so people are beingbiochemically affected by these
circuits and instead of waitingand not doing anything about it
and then getting a lot ofmedications self-medicate,
naturally with emotional braintraining, there's tools where
you just you know you feel bad,you know it's biochemical,
you're driven or you feeldepressed or you feel you can't
(05:58):
find your joy.
What happens is you say it's acircuit.
You should switch off thatcircuit and then, once you've
learned to do that, any circuitsthat are really important in
your life maybe a depressioncircuit, or maybe a distancing
circuit, or maybe a food circuit, or an addiction, whatever,
that is, procrastination,whatever bothers you you can
then learn the skills to erasethat circuit so you have lasting
(06:20):
change.
And when you do that, over timethe brain stops being in the
stress habit which is called thestress set point, which is
called allostasis.
And in our work what we do ispeople stay with it until
they've rewired enough circuitsso their brain essentially goes,
defaults, to his position ofconnection, of flow, of optimal
(06:44):
physiology, and that's their newset point.
And when that happens on alllevels emotional, relational,
spiritual, behavioral, physicalthey are at their best and
that's what we call set pointone and that's the goal.
But you have to do three thingsFirst you have to learn how to
use your emotional pathways inyour brain so that you can get
(07:07):
from stress to that optimalstate of joy in a couple of
minutes.
And then you have to learn howto use the same tools with more
persistence until you notice thesymptom you don't like could be
overeating, it could be getting, you know, really negative, it
could be anxious or whatever.
Whatever that symptom is, itstops.
Richard L. Blake (07:37):
And when the symptom stops, you know you have
rewired the circuit and thenyou go on to the next circuit
until you have raised the setpoint of your brain, and that's
back to therapy.
Why do you think it's been sopopular and dominant in
healthcare systems if it's beenso ineffective?
Dr Laurel Mellon (07:53):
I think that it has been popular because it's
better than nothing and a bigpart of psychotherapy in fact,
overwhelmingly it's theemotional connection between the
therapist and the patient, andthen they add on various
different modalities, but by farpeople need to emotionally
connect with themselves andothers in order to heal, and
(08:16):
having a secure place to gowhere someone will listen to you
, where it'll be safe andsupportive, is enormously
helpful.
And all we're doing withemotional brain training is
tacking on to thatscientifically-based skills so
people can use it with others,with peers and with their EBT
provider.
So they can essentially getthat therapist in their pocket
(08:38):
all week long and aren'tcompletely dependent upon the
therapist.
They are able to have a guidethere to guide their way, to
stay with it and to use it well,but they have other people in
their small group that they canconnect with during the week.
So I think that there's a hugehunger for being seen, heard and
felt, and therapy does awonderful job of that, and we
(08:59):
want to keep all that's goodabout therapy but update it so
people get better results andare also empowered with the
skills so they are not dependenton the therapist.
They use that as a springboardfor their own emotional and
spiritual and physical evolution.
Andy Esam (09:16):
And so how did this new technique come about?
How did you come to findemotional brain training?
Dr Laurel Mellon (09:24):
Very slowly.
I'm 75 years old.
I have been working on this for45 years and I started by
getting lucky and I got afaculty position at the
University of California, sanFrancisco School of Medicine and
I was a nutritionist at thetime and this grant that I was
on for a long period of time,they didn't really know what to
(09:44):
do with me as a nutritionist, soI got to do what I wanted to do
.
What I wanted to do is find theroot cause of why people get
out of control, and particularlywith food.
And so I looked back in theliterature to 1940 and found an
article by Hildebrook, who was apsychiatrist at Baylor College
of Medicine in Texas, thatshowed it was about the
connection between people.
(10:05):
And I thought to myself I was28, really young and very.
I thought, oh well, that's noproblem, I will teach in the
clinic.
I will teach parents andchildren the tools of nurturing
and setting limits, in otherwords, to connect.
And of course, since I'm ascientist and I'm at the
university, words to connect andof course, since I'm a
(10:25):
scientist and I'm at theuniversity, what we have to do
is study it.
So we studied it and whathappened was we were surprised
that it was enormously effective.
And particularly, you know,obesity is a great way to study
intrapsychic phenomenon becauseit's really due to stress
chemicals.
If you're not in an environmentwhere you have a lot of
emotional connection and you'regetting your rewards met
physiologically in a healthy way, the easiest thing to do is to
(10:48):
reach for food.
It requires no effort and thenonce you start doing that, it
becomes pretty addictive, inthat the food itself makes
things worse.
So what we found with thesefamilies that we were teaching
this was they said what's goingon?
His mother came to me in thehall at UCSF and she said what
are you teaching to my daughter?
Because she used to be stealingmoney from my purse to go get
(11:09):
food and all she would thinkabout was food.
And now she has no use for food.
She wants to go out and play.
And I knew that I didn't knowwhy it worked in the brain and I
decided to dedicate myself tofinding out.
So we began that research.
It would take 30 years beforethe research confirming EBT
would come out, and once wemoved it to adults, then we
(11:32):
moved it to wellness and wemoved it to every health problem
, because under all theseproblems is physiologic stress.
But what was exciting was in2007, which was a while ago, my
mother was dying and I was alsoteaching medical students at the
university EBT, with mycolleague, igor Mitrovich, who's
(11:52):
a neuroscientist and aphysiologist.
In the meantime I went back toschool and, with my faculty job,
went ahead and became a healthpsychologist.
But here's what happens I waswaking up in the morning at
about 4 am and I was bonechillingly lonely.
I was alone in my house.
I realized my mother was dyingand the night, the day before,
(12:13):
the night before, I had beenteaching this class to the
medical students about thereward center and at that time
the method was three levels ofstress.
You know you get to balance andyou go to stress and there's
something in between.
And here I was feeling sotraumatized by all this going on
.
I realized that my method up tothat point was wrong.
There weren't three levels ofstress in the brain, there were
(12:37):
five, because I was in a traumastate at the time and none of
the tools were working, and alsoI knew that all of the tools
needed to go to joy.
It's not enough to be calm,because the stress response, the
HPA axis, does not shut offwith mediocre moods.
It best shuts off when we're inthat state of love or joy or
(13:01):
compassion or all that state ofneural integration.
So I had to stop everything fora number of years to move it to
a five-point system and then,once I did that which we now
have with emotional braintraining, it took another 10
years to get it so thatindividuals could rewire their
own trauma circuits, because theemotional brain does all sorts
(13:22):
of things to avoid rewiring them.
And so we found ways to useprecision EBT it's called so
that even regular people can goin and be in our groups and you
learn how to use the app so thatthey can bring up a memory and
then safely dip down, activatethat circuit with stress.
You have to stress, activatethe circuit just for a moment.
(13:45):
That unlocks the synapticconnections between the neurons
and whatever is done in the nexttwo to four hours updates the
circuit.
So this is what is so out ofdate with so much of the
therapies.
They're looking to calm people,and that's really helpful,
because if you start to feelyour feelings when you're
(14:05):
stressed and you don't haveemotional brain training, in
other words, these provenpathways of emotions, you get
stuck.
It's not safe to feel yourdepression or your anxiety or
whatever, because in fact,that's why we eat, drink, spend
or do whatever we have.
We want to get away from thatbecause it feels like we're
going to be annihilated.
Expand or do whatever we have.
We want to get away from thatbecause it feels like we're
(14:26):
going to be annihilated.
And so in the past, it wasreasonable not to feel our
feelings because we needed a wayto drop down into whatever
misery was going on, whateverbad feelings are going on, and
then we had to simply get rightout of it.
Within a minute you get out ofthat state and that's what EBT
allows you to do to dip downinto the bottom of your brain,
spark the aliveness of thatcircuit, the exact circuit
(14:47):
that's making you feel bad.
Even a brain scan cannot findthe circuit that's making us
depressed or making us overeator making us do whatever.
All you have to do is use youremotions and, because of
evolutionary biology is based onadaptation, based on being able
to have plasticity in yourbrain so that you can change
(15:10):
your response to differingenvironments.
So the brain's set up for this.
But you can't be cognitive.
You have to release, control,use the emotional skills say
complain a little bit, reallycomplain for about 20 seconds
about something.
(15:31):
Use the emotional process of VBTstraight down into the bottom
of the brain, activate thatcircuit.
It will tell you exactly what'sthe message is in that circuit
that's in the unconscious mind.
Once you have those exact words, you are off and running,
because you can use those wordsto actually confront the circuit
and erase it.
So it used to be that youdidn't want to feel your
feelings.
Now you have the tools.
(15:51):
You have the pathways in yourbrain, in your app, with your
group, you can dip down,activate that circuit and then
change it to whatever newmessage you want.
So you are in control wow,amazing.
Richard L. Blake (16:06):
I love the how you explain things.
You know how people don't wantto feel their feelings and and
how there's that threat ofannihilation.
That's definitely something Ifelt.
I I had an eating disorder whenI was younger and depression
and anxiety, and I think that'sreally interesting, that you
have linked, you know, the food,the obesity crisis and the
(16:27):
mental health crisis.
So do you think the growingobesity problem, the growing
mental health crisis?
So do you think the growingobesity problem, the growing
mental health crisis, what doyou think is causing these
increases?
Dr Laurel Mellon (16:35):
I think that there's just unlimited amounts
of proof to show that the stressresponse was not appropriate
for our life today.
It was essentially evolved fora very different kind of life,
where you're not having constantpsychological probes to get
stressed, and so our stressresponse overreacts to stressful
(16:56):
situations that are really notthreatening, but they're
perceived as threatening, andthen it encodes wires in our
amygdala so that we repeat thatprocess over and over again.
What's important is to say yes,it repeats that response, but
the response is biochemical.
So let me give you the exampleof obesity.
What's going on right now ishorrific, and what's going on is
(17:20):
that people are self-medicatingwith food, and once you start
doing that, it's hard to stopbecause the circuits in your
brain are pointing in onedirection food, food, food.
And essentially, when you'restressed and have these food
circuits in your amygdala, itactivates eight chemicals that
are the proven chemicals tocause obesity.
They're all stress related.
(17:41):
So what happens is that whenyou are stressed, what happens
is the cortisol will make youhungry, the dopamine will make
you crave those foods, theleptin will make you store
whatever you're eating as fat,so you cannot lose weight, and
then there's drained serotonincauses the kind of foods you're
(18:02):
attracted to or increase insulin.
Then there's PYY and there'sGLP-1 and there's ghrelin.
So these are the eightchemicals.
All of them are controlled bystress.
Ebt is the only method otherthan weight loss surgery that
has been shown in clinicaltrials published in
peer-reviewed journals to notonly cause people to lose weight
, but to keep it off aftertreatment ends.
(18:23):
That means we got to the rootcause in the brain.
Now, so what happens?
Enter the pharmaceuticalcompanies and they say oh, we
understand that there's eightdifferent chemicals that make
people gain weight and regainthe weight afterwards and crave
foods.
And we're going to take one ofthem and we're going to engineer
it GLP-1, and then we're goingto charge you a lot of money for
(18:44):
it.
What it's going to do is withEBT.
It's natural.
As you rewire your stress center, what happens is people stop
overeating.
We used to have informationabout food available for people.
No one uses it Because when thebiochemical drives shut off
(19:04):
because you've changed all ofthose stress chemicals, you lose
your interest.
It's like a love affair, likeif you had this wonderful love
affair and you just were just soinfatuated with this person and
then, two years later, you lookback and you say what did I
think?
What was I thinking?
That person isn't the mostdesirable person on earth.
And the same thing that happenswith food.
When you rewire the circuit,the love affair is over, because
(19:25):
this is why You're getting yourchemical needs met for reward
and safety, naturally from yourown brain.
And if they're not met, whathappens is we do get a survival
drive to do something, to feelrewarded and safe, and again
food is the way to do it.
Or if you can't do that, youget a shot.
(19:47):
You get an injection of onechemical GLP-1, which makes most
people nauseated, doesn't.
You can't do that, you get ashot.
You get an injection of onechemical GLP-1, which makes most
people nauseated, doesn't workin the long term and makes
people dependent upon somethingthat's really not going to solve
their problem, when all theyreally have to do is rewire
those circuits and they havelasting and profound change and
not these other symptoms.
But the only side effect ofsymptoms of EBT is a lot of joy.
(20:09):
You have to learn how to be injoy.
Andy Esam (20:13):
I had a question.
It's probably a bit basic, but,as Rich will tell you, I like a
basic question Emotional braintraining, I mean.
Presumably you're helpingpeople to actually recognize
their emotions as well, becauseI think I've come across plenty
of people who can't actuallyspot their own emotions.
Dr Laurel Mellon (20:29):
Great, that is true, but we go one step
further.
The reason that knowing youremotions are so important is
because then you figure out whatyou need.
If you know how you feel, youcan figure out what you need.
But in the day of stressoverload which is our life now,
the speed of change that's goingon, the information overload,
(20:51):
the temptations, we are livingin a very stressful environment
and where there's no turningback.
But most of us are not inwhat's called a homeostatic
state, in other words, aconnected state.
There's a tendency for us toeither be low and then medicate
for our anxiety or depression,or just go numb or go to a false
(21:13):
high, and in no circumstanceare we really looking at our
accurate feelings.
So what we've done is to sayit's great to know your feelings
if you're in a brain state thatthey're accurate.
So let me just describe to youwhat goes on with EBT.
There are five levels of stressin the brain and emotions are
very different at each stresslevel and the brain area in
(21:35):
charge is different.
So let's just go to the top ofyour head.
If you put your finger on themiddle of your forehead, that's
brain state one.
When you're there, all thehappy memories are there, all of
your feelings are beautiful.
They're like love andcompassion and hope and
forgiveness, and awe and joy.
You don't have any needs.
Then go down to just above youreyebrow.
That's brain state two.
(21:56):
You feel not great, but youfeel good.
In that state you are connected.
You are still what's called inhomeostasis.
All the chemicals are healthy,you feel good, but you don't
feel rewarded.
Now go down to your cheekbones.
You're now at brain state three.
Now this is the process that isnot homeostatic and healthy,
where the feelings flicker andthey're accurate.
(22:17):
Knowing how you feel reallymatters.
Now the feelings go haywire.
The limbic brain is in charge.
You're feeling a littlestressed.
Then down further, then thenumber four.
You're feeling definitelystressed, you're feeling
depressed and bad, and thelimbic brain starts, the
reptilian brain starts to takeover and then down at five.
You are in overload.
So three, four and five.
(22:38):
What happens with EBT is there'svery simple tools that will you
say.
I'm at three, I use the toolfor brain state three and it
spirals me up to one.
I use the tool at brain statefour.
It's called the cycle tool.
It spirals me up to one andthen the one at five spirals it
to one.
So we use emotions to.
(22:58):
What we know is if we're instress.
What our real need is toprocess our emotion in this
highly effective, quick way.
So we get back to a state wherewe really can tell our deepest
emotions and what we really need.
So that is the new stressmanagement.
Stress management is not onesize fits all.
Knowing what you feel, so youknow what you need.
(23:18):
That works at brain state oneor two, but we have to have the
whole compliment.
There's five different toolsfor five different brain states
and then you are solid for therest of your life because you
can control your physiology andyour emotions, thoughts and
behaviors just by using thesetools.
Richard L. Blake (23:35):
Amazing, and you mentioned trials there.
Can you tell us a bit moreabout the evidence?
How robust is it?
What kind of effect size haveyou seen?
How does it compare to existingtreatments in the results?
Dr Laurel Mellon (23:47):
There are only I think at this point 14
studies on EBT and those studiesare impressive for a couple of
reasons.
Number one that they showlasting change which has never
been shown before.
In two studies we have a twoand a 13-month, two-year and
six-year follow-up and whathappens is that people learn the
(24:10):
skills they change their brain.
And when they change theirbrain, what happens is they get
lasting effects because they'vechanged their physiology,
because all of psychology andhealth is based on physiology
and these circuits control it.
So, number one lasting changeafter treatment ends.
When I was a young woman, youhad to have five-year follow-up
(24:32):
or they wouldn't even look atyou.
Now no one even talks aboutthat because nothing is working,
everything is short-term,because they're not going to the
physiologic root cause.
We want everyone to keep allthe methods they have now and
just bolt on EBT as foundationalto the health.
The other thing that's veryimpressive about EBT is you know
a lot of people talk about CBTbeing effective and it is not
(24:55):
effective.
It is effective for oneparticular problem you have in
the short term, and you knowwhat, as a consumer, that
doesn't work very well becauseit means you have to stick with
it.
But the reason it does not workvery well is because it doesn't
go to the physiologic rootcause, so it doesn't generalize.
So it's both not generalizingand not lasting.
(25:17):
So this is what happens withEBT.
Someone comes in.
Let's say their doctor says youshould lose weight and we say,
great, okay, come to, you shouldgo to EBT.
So they go to EBT and we saywe're happy to help you, but
your job is to be in this smallgroup.
The emotional brain requiresemotional connection.
So we've made that affordableand fun by having these
(25:38):
telephone groups.
So you go to your group and thefirst thing you do is you
rewire one problem and then yousay, oh my gosh, I just rewired
food, or oh, I just rewiredanxiety.
And then you say, oh my gosh, Ijust rewired food, or oh, I
just rewired anxiety, and youknow the difference.
And then you say you know, butthere's more circuits, and so
you rewire several of them thatbother you and then you begin to
get lasting change becauseyou've changed the set point in
(26:00):
the brain.
But our research shows thiswhatever someone comes in for,
they can solve that, becausethey can go right to that
circuit and rewire it, butbecause they stay with the
program to have a more globaleffect.
What we find is that they haveimprovements in all domains of
life, whether it's relationshipsor mood or health.
(26:21):
So when it generalizes, itmeans, in contrast to CBT, where
you have to pinpoint the exactthing you want to change, in
contrast to CBT, where you haveto pinpoint the exact thing you
want to change.
Here you are, you know you canrewire circuits that are really
triggering you, but in generalwe're changing all of physiology
so you are protected to havegreater well-being and prevent
some problems because your wholephysiology is different.
(26:43):
So I would say the tworemarkable parts of this is
post-treatment improvements thatlast and changes that are broad
spectrum, not just focus on oneissue or problem.
So people feel overall likethey have a new life.
Andy Esam (26:59):
And you mentioned the follow-up trials, but in terms
of the initial rewiring and thegroup training, what sort of
timescales are we talking aboutthere?
Dr Laurel Mellon (27:08):
Well, when we come in, please appreciate that
most people don't know about EBT.
We only have 500,000 peoplewho've ever used it, so it's
relatively given that it's ascientific breakthrough in
medicine.
It's relatively unknown and weknow that.
Everyone comes in and they haveto learn first of all.
I don't have problems, I justhave circuits.
(27:29):
So the initial knee-jerkreaction that people have when
they don't feel good is why?
And why is a four-letter word?
Because asking yourself whyputs your neocortex in charge,
which we don't want to do.
We want the neocortex to be incharge of figuring out what
stress level you're at orwhether you're rewiring or not.
So they first need to learn alittle bit about that.
(27:51):
You don't have problems, youjust have wires and so reframe
it.
And they also learn about howto use the pathways in the brain
.
There are five differentpathways and it's a little
unnerving at first.
The most common reaction whenthey say what just happened to
me?
I felt bad and now I feel good.
I've never had that happen inone to two minutes.
(28:12):
So we don't want to scare thebrain.
So the first month people are intheir group.
They're just trying to get thewhole idea down of what they're
doing, and then we encouragethem to go right into rewiring
four major circuits, usually amood, a relationship pattern, a
habit, and then one other eithera body image or work stress and
(28:32):
they narrow in the next monthor sometimes two months if they
want to go at a slower pace.
They do that and then the restof the program.
Their set point is really highand they just do a kind of a
clean house and clear out otherfear, memories, other situations
, have a cohesive narrative oftheir life and raise their set
points.
So their brain is wired forhigher purpose and so the
program can take six months.
(28:53):
It can take a year.
Some people like to go slowly.
It's all been studied for solong.
It's a video program, so youjust go through the videos and
you learn something every dayand you use the app to spiral up
out of stress and you're withyour group and so people take it
at their own pace.
Andy Esam (29:08):
And the emphasis on group is that, just so it
reaches more people.
Dr Laurel Mellon (29:12):
No, the app is amazing.
People just go in and they lovethe app.
We don't let anyone have theapp.
The reason we don't let anyonehave the app is because it would
be out of integrity.
We have a tremendous amount ofdata that supports.
When people get in a smallgroup where they have other
brains there, you know thateveryone has the same goal
(29:32):
raising their set point rightand they help each other with
these community connections.
We had five minutes using yourapp with another person.
Listening transforms the brainand so, without that other
person listening, the tools workvery well on your own.
Most people use most of thetime.
They do it about 10 times a day.
It takes a minute.
It works, but having thatperson listen not only creates
(29:56):
loving connection, which we allneed, but it helps.
The tools go all the way downto the trauma circuits in the
brain and so, if you think aboutyour brain as being a chest of
drawers or a file cabinet, thenumber one memories, all the
great memories, are in the topdrawer and all the trauma
memories are in the bottomdrawer.
(30:17):
We all have some things in thebottom drawer.
To be able to stay present toyour emotion, using these
scientific, simple toolsrequires emotional connection.
So when someone's listening toyou, instead of getting down to
the fourth drawer of the brainand rewiring that circuit, you
get down to the fifth drawer ofthe brain, the very bottom.
(30:38):
We've also learned that thesetrauma circuits and again I'm
not talking about having beenonly in a traumatic childhood,
although that's included too butalso the brain perceives stress
, even with slightdisconnections or misattunements
.
So it's normal for everyone tohave some of these five circuits
(30:59):
.
If you use EBT just forself-regulation, it is
enormously effective and peopleuse it their whole life.
You know people, these groups.
They continue to use it forself-regulation.
But if you don't get the fivecircuits, they live there and
they get bigger and stronger andyou think you're on a false
high.
You think everything's fine,but you have this feeling that
(31:21):
you're a little bit on edge andthen boom, those circuits hit
and you're overeating, overdrinking, distancing, judging
all the things that comenormally and naturally from
stressful experiences, when wehaven't rewired the circuit.
So what that means is we wanteveryone to be in an environment
where they can get their fivecircuits and get the job done,
(31:41):
and that requires eitherone-on-one therapy.
But it turns out that ourstudies, for example at
University of Kentucky, showedthat it was the number of these
little connections that you doon your app by phone with
someone who's a groupmate thatyou know.
There's only six people in agroup.
You know them because they'reall working together over this
period of time.
When people do that, theirhealth status changes.
(32:05):
They love EBT and they lose theweight and they improve their
lives and they stay with it forone year.
The average person stays inthese groups for one year
because it is so powerful andeffective and this is the great
part it is fun.
You know how traditionalpsychotherapy is.
Oh, what's wrong with me andwhat are my issues and what are
(32:26):
my problems.
People come into EBT when I geton the phone because they're
all phone groups so that it'seasy to get into.
So I get on the phone andeveryone's laughing and
everyone's talking and I said,okay, who wants to do some work
today on rewiring a circuit?
And then when someone rewires acircuit, we have a little party
, people clap and celebrate.
So in other words, this isempowering people to take
(32:48):
control of their lives in abrand new way that's not only
scientific and affordable, butit is fun to do.
It's fun to be in power.
It's fun to have that control.
Richard L. Blake (33:00):
And your understanding of trauma.
Trauma is something that comesup a lot on this podcast because
I think it's become the conceptcreep.
Trauma has become anything andeveryone has it, apparently, and
I don't necessarily agree withthat.
So your understanding of traumahow does it happen in the brain
and how can we avoid trauma aswell?
Dr Laurel Mellon (33:23):
Well, there's some great ways to do that.
First of all, trauma is anallostatic circuit.
Some great ways to do that.
First of all, trauma is anallostatic circuit.
Okay, so stay with me for asecond.
All of EBT is enormously deep,but it's very simple.
So let me just tell you thesimplicity of it.
There are only two kinds ofcircuits in the amygdala.
There is a homeostatic,effective circuit that makes you
(33:44):
healthy and happy, and there'san ineffective allostatic
circuit that makes you sick,including the trauma circuits.
Okay, so these allostaticcircuits this is physiology, not
psychology, it's completelyaccepted the allostatic circuits
have no shutoff valves, so whenthey get activated they have to
(34:07):
wear themselves out and becausethey're so strong biochemically
and they have no shutoff valves, they can make for a really bad
day or a really bad week whenthey get activated.
So there's two kinds ofcircuits.
What we're doing in EBT isactivating the allostatic
circuits of the person's choice.
They do it and they'reessentially rewiring it into a
(34:28):
homeostatic circuit.
Okay, that's what they're doing.
That's the overall plan, untilthe set point is in connection
and homeostasis.
Then, within those allostaticcircuits, there are two kinds.
There is a survival circuit,which is the most fun kind.
A survival circuit is againbiological.
That's been studied a lot at AUby Ledoux, joseph Ledoux.
(34:51):
But this is what it is.
It's real simple.
When I got one of them when Iwas 11, I'd been ridiculed at
school.
I came home I was reallyembarrassed I didn't know how to
talk about my feelings with mymother counter.
There was cinnamon rolls withthe white frosting on them and I
(35:12):
reached for the cinnamon rollsand I ate three of them.
Okay, this is important.
And I was ashamed because wewere you know that was you're
not supposed to eat food withoutpermission in our family.
So, but I didn't know that inthat moment what had happened in
my brain was essentially astress response.
A fight or flight circuit agargantuan fight or flight
(35:32):
circuit was activated and thenthis little tiny food circuit
got hooked in with it.
So if in that moment I had usedEBT and processed my emotions,
by the end of the day thatcircuit would have been
dismantled, I would have gone tobed that night and I would
still have a healthyrelationship with food.
I didn't know that.
(35:53):
So by the time I woke up thenext morning because the
circuits are stored byhippocampus into long-term
memory at night what happenedwas.
I had a food problem.
The same thing, I got adepression circuit that way.
Okay, these are called survivalcircuits and what they do is
they activate strong reactivedrives to repeat whatever we did
when we were in stress.
(36:13):
So if we were even stressoverloaded, to that extent,
that's a trauma circuit, okay.
So when people first come intoEBT they rewire the four of them
, because four of these survivalcircuits are what caused their
lives to be out of control.
But trauma is a little bit morethan that.
It's not only can be thatcircuit.
So there's a survival circuitwhich is a false association
(36:36):
between fight or flight drive toget something that's not going
to meet our need.
That becomes compulsive andaddictive.
The other is a core circuitwhich they do a lot of in CBT,
but they just don't go to thedeep level like we do in EBT.
Let's say, in a moment I was infront of my house when I was
four years old.
My brother, because he wasolder, got to go across the
(36:56):
street with his friends and Iwas left out.
I had to sit there, stand therein the front yard and my brain
encoded I am bad.
Okay, a moment when I felt badgot encoded in my brain as a
core circuit that generalizes toI'm always bad.
Now, you hear a lot about thisin CBT, but they keep it on a
thinking brain level and thecircuit is not in the top drawer
(37:20):
of the brain, it's in the fourand five level and you've got to
activate it, or the circuitstress.
Activate it just for ananosecond or it won't rewire.
So in trauma, let's say there'sa traumatic situation and what
happened was someone probablygot something they did during
that time.
They reached for food or theyreached for judgment, or they
shut down emotionally orwhatever it is.
(37:42):
There'd be a survival circuitthere.
There could also be a few ofthese core circuits like I am
bad or I'm not worthy, and therecould also be a few fear
memories.
So in EBT, this is how we workit.
I don't believe that we shouldrewire everything in our brain.
Who has the time?
Life is not perfect and we havea lot of fun that we need to
have, and so when people come inand they have something that
(38:08):
bothers them let's say it's foodwhat happens is you rewire the
food circuit, but embeddedwithin the program are other
tools, like the travel back tool, and you find out when you
actually use this tool to goback to when it was encoded and
have a reattachment experience,a reattachment experience to
rewire it.
If there's any othermiscellaneous clutter, we call
it clutter.
We call it clutter because it'semotional clutter, because we
(38:31):
make it fun, right.
And if there's any othercircuits down there, you just
use the same exact tools.
There are only five tools toclear it, so that you take the
suppressed emotions and youquickly turn them into emotions
that are healthy and normal andthe tension goes out of your
body.
You feel emotionally lighter.
So that's how we rewire trauma.
(38:52):
They're basically five circuits, but they can have other
circuits associated with it andyou have the tools in EBT.
If there are other fear,memories or other core circuits,
you rewire them too until thesymptom goes away.
So we never judge the symptom.
It's coherent in the circuit.
If your circuit is telling youto do that, don't try to stop
(39:12):
overeating.
It's just a circuit.
Understand that.
It makes perfect sense.
You'd be doing that.
Go back to that circuit, rewireit and you rewire it until you
don't have the symptom anymore.
And then you know you're home,free and the changes are lasting
to that circuit.
Rewire it and you rewire ituntil you don't have the symptom
anymore, and then you knowyou're home free and the changes
are lasting.
Richard L. Blake (39:27):
And does it work for compulsions as well,
like OCD?
Dr Laurel Mellon (39:32):
Yes, so essentially OCD is a whole bunch
of survival circuits.
So over and over again we'retriggered and then, once it's
also there could be some corecircuits there.
But that pattern of OCD isproblematic to people, just like
being addicted to alcohol orfood or being addicted to
numbness, whatever that is thecircuits.
(39:53):
This is why it's so simple andwhy we train mental health
professionals in this prettyquickly, because it's very
simple.
You know we have all these waysin psychology and diagnostics
to look at 278 or whatevernumber of diagnoses they are,
but they really comebiologically down to these
circuits and anyone can learnthe skills to take charge of
(40:14):
their circuits.
Obviously it's better done witha health professional who can
emotionally connect, and that'swhy we want all mental health
professionals to be certified inEbt, because that emotional
connection and that stability isgoing to essentially help them
go deeper into the circuits inthe bottom of the brain and have
a more complete experience well, I about the training.
Richard L. Blake (40:37):
I'm actually thinking maybe this is something
I should look into, something Ishould add on to my training
how, how does the training work?
How long does it take?
Do you need to be licensed insome way?
Dr Laurel Mellon (40:48):
First and foremost, we are trying to
license as many mental healthprofessionals as possible.
We believe in the power of therelationship between the
therapist and the participantand in order to have an
authentic relationship, thetherapist needs to use the tools
.
Because you're speaking fromyour own experience.
The first time you rewire acircuit and everybody has them,
(41:10):
you say, oh my gosh.
And then there's a new energyto wanting to share it with
other people and it's more of anequal relationship where you're
the guide, but you're also ableto say you know, I rewired my
circuit here and there, so thetherapist doesn't have to be
this perfect person, becauseinstead it's more authentic than
that.
So it takes a distance learningof three hours a week, plus
(41:31):
some listening to tapes andreading science on the side, for
four months to get the basicskills of what we call the EBT
algorithm for neurophysiologicresilience.
Okay, so to get that algorithmso that you can go in and give
that therapy to anyone.
You start very similarly to howyou would start now as a
(41:54):
therapist, and that is, you takea moment and you say how can I
help?
You listen to them, talk aboutwhat's bothering them, but then
you shift gears and you havethem find the circuit and
express the emotions prettyrapidly.
So it's very compatible fortherapists.
And then, if you want to do theentire program and raise your
set point, you can continue foranother six months and that gets
(42:15):
done.
So, yeah, we don't.
It's interesting.
What we don't do is we don'tgive the app out, because it
doesn't work without humanconnection and so you need at
least to be in a group and thenyou get the app and you get
actually daily drop-in emotionalsupport groups.
Andy Esam (42:30):
So it's comprehensive services and we don't train
health professionals in itunless they are willing to do
the work themselves, becausethen they have that authenticity
and they have that integrity ofbeing able to share their
experience, so doing the workyourselves.
I think you mentioned 500,000people have used the technique.
(42:51):
How widely available is itcurrently?
Dr Laurel Mellon (43:00):
It's currently not very widely available and I
will blame myself for that,because I'll go back to some of
my own emotional clutter, whichis in 2007,.
We had EBT all over the countryand I realized that it could be
damaging to people because theself-regulatory tools are so
effective that they put peopleon a false high, and unless we
can get down to the bottom ofthe brain and have everybody
rewiring their trauma circuits,that is out of integrity.
(43:24):
So I shut down the whole thingand it was then completely
reconfigured, based onneurophysiology and
evidence-based practices.
And then we found out thatstill people were having a hard
time with the circuits that werereally deep in their brain, and
so we discovered what's calledprecision EBT, and then we
(43:44):
decided people had needed.
It's too expensive for people,so we decided to make the groups
less expensive and give morecomprehensive services, and so
we're now at a point with EBTthat my perfectionism and my my
word is that I don't want tohurt anyone and that I want
everyone to be able to get tothe bottom of their brain is we
(44:04):
receive $500,000 from a gratefulpatient.
One of the things that EBT doesbest is relationships, because
relationships can only get tointimacy at brain state one and
at brain state two they'retransactional I'll scratch your
back if you scratch mine and atset point three, four and five,
(44:25):
we really treat ourselves andothers like objects.
And so we have several peoplewho have donated quite a bit of
money to EBT saying every humanbeing on earth should have these
skills, and they came not fromweight people lose weight and
keep it off but from savingtheir family.
And so we had the funds to dothe research to make EBT very
(44:46):
precise and very inexpensive,and that's what we're doing now,
and so that's why I'm here withyou today is we're at the point
now where we want everyone tohave it.
Richard L. Blake (44:54):
Amazing, Amazing.
So how going forward then?
How do you see this rolling out?
Dr Laurel Mellon (44:59):
I see it rolling out in an interesting
way, because we have lots ofpeople at UCSF and at other
universities who say, laurel,you're the only one that's
applied.
The science that people haveworked for years Bench science
has to get out.
And I think what is going tohappen now that we have covered
all our bases, I think that it'sjust a matter of it's going to
(45:20):
explode Because, right, and Ibelieve, the emotional brain is
also the spiritual brain.
It's the seat of the soul andthis work, when you connect to
the, to yourself emotionally andspiritually, what happens is
I'm getting goose pimples, justsaying it these emotions like
love and forgiveness, and hope,and and these emotions start
flowing and people feelcompletely differently and they
(45:44):
know that they have the skillsto create that by choice, not
chance.
And so what I believe hashappened to EBT is what's
happened is it wasn't going toreally get into the mainstream
for all people until the timewas perfect, emotionally and
spiritually.
Okay, and this world is now sohurting and we have topped out.
(46:07):
We can't make any moremedications.
We're now making medications totreat medications and
therapists are exhausted becauseeveryone's going to therapy and
it's very hard on the therapistbecause all of that stress
comes into the therapist's brainand it's like the whole world
is screaming that this is theperfect time for EBT.
So I believe in how the worldworks, is all perfect in its own
(46:32):
way, and this is EBT's time.
Andy Esam (46:35):
Wow, that's an amazing way to finish and I wish
you all the very best with it.
But before we let you go, canyou let us know where to find
you?
Dr Laurel Mellon (46:44):
Yes, it's very easy to find me.
It's Emotional Brain Training,is EBT, just like food stamps in
the US ebtorg.
It's also called ebtconnectnet,but ebt like food stamps org.
That's where the portal is,where you can get all of the
(47:04):
program, all of the support andthe app and the entire
experience.
I also have a new book out,which is One, two, three, joy.
It's actually about weight loss, but I wrote it for all
audiences because anyone who'sinterested in the science and
practice of EBT.
I documented everything there.
So in one book you will seeeverything and probably more
than you want.
(47:24):
But there's stories, there'slots of different tools and so
that 123joy, but mainly come toebtorg.
It also is ebtconnectnet and wewill greet you there and you
can get right into a group andyou can start making some magic
with these tools.
Andy Esam (47:40):
Fabulous Well, thanks again for giving us your time
and yeah, it certainly soundsamazing.
We'll be following yourprogress very keenly.
Dr Laurel Mellon (47:48):
Well, and I'm so grateful to you for inviting
me.
It was a pleasure.
Richard L. Blake (47:52):
Yeah, it's great to have you.
Thank you very much.
Dr Laurel Mellon (47:55):
Thank you very much.
Andy Esam (48:02):
Welcome back.
I am sure you found that asfascinating as we all did.
One thing I particularly likedis the um normality of these
circuits and the fact thateveryone's got them and we're
all um shaped in a very similarway, and there is something we
can do about it every single oneof us and it only takes two
minutes.
Richard L. Blake (48:23):
Yeah, it sounds amazingly quick and I
love the guideposts.
It's kind of like a map ofoneself.
I feel like when people arestruggling with their mental
health they feel lost orcertainly I felt lost and a lot
of my clients do too.
And when you give people a, amapping system, a protocol, it
(48:44):
can just be so relieving thatyou, you know you're not so lost
in the wilderness.
And it sounds like ebt is isdoing exactly that.
Andy Esam (48:53):
Yeah, I'm going to be very keen to uh follow the
progress because I think it willgrow exponentially absolutely
yeah, yes.
Richard L. Blake (49:01):
So, listener, go, go check out dr melon.
Uh, ebtorg, ebtorg.
And yeah, let us know what youthink if this is something you
want to try, we we would love tohear all your thoughts on the
podcast.
You can reach us on oninstagram, you can find andy at
andy esam and you can find me atthe Breath Geek and there's
(49:24):
also a feature now.
You can reply on Apple Podcasts.
You can send us direct messages.
So, send us a direct message ifyou have any thoughts or
questions, and we'd love to hearfrom you and thanks again for
Dr Mellon's time Fascinating yesabsolutely All right and thank
you, listener.
We will see you soon.
Bye-bye, see.
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