July 26, 2024 • 56 mins
Discover how the power of vulnerability can transform your relationships with our special guest, game designer Dan Schreiner. In this enlightening episode, Dan introduces us to his groundbreaking game, Truth or Fate, which combines psychological insights with the mystical elements of tarot. Learn how this unique game facilitates deep connections and personal revelations, offering a fresh perspective on modern relationships. With insights drawn from over a hundred psychology books, Dan shares how Truth or Fate can help you connect more authentically with romantic partners, friends, and family.
Explore the complexities of today’s social landscape as we discuss how Truth or Fate addresses pressing societal trends, such as the decline in emergency contacts and dating among younger generations. The game’s mechanics prioritize vulnerability and compassion, fostering a safe space for meaningful interactions. Dan also shares his journey into the relationship-building industry and his mission to create engaging, meaningful experiences that counteract growing social apathy. From the significance of nurturing relationships to the potential economic and social implications of decreasing birth rates, this episode provides a comprehensive look at the importance of human connection.
Uncover the profound impact of shared struggles and vulnerable moments through the lens of influential thinkers like Carl Jung, Viktor Frankl, and Esther Perel. We also delve into the fascinating interplay between truth-telling, unconscious beliefs, and the mystical elements of tarot and fortune-telling in Truth or Fate. Dan’s personal anecdotes and reflections bring to life the therapeutic value of curiosity, active listening, and caring in relationships. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer in the mystical, this episode offers valuable insights into how games like Truth or Fate can reveal personal truths and strengthen the bonds that connect us all.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to Laughing Through the
Pain Navigating Wellness with me, Richard L Blake and Andy Sam.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello Andy, it's great to see you, as always, are
you all right?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yes, that's fine.
We have spoken to Dan Schreiner.
So Dan is a game designer,effectively.
So he has created this gamecalled Truth or Fate, which is a
relationship game, and it hasaspects of psychology.
He's read like a hundredpsychology books to create this
(00:34):
game and tarot, so it's got abit of this kind of fortune
telling type thing.
So we delve into, well, thepsychology of relationships, why
we need help with relationships.
What's happened to society thatpeople need games to be able to
form relationships as well as,uh, tarot.
What is tarot is it?
Is it a hoax?
We ask him that is it a hoax?
(00:55):
So you'll find out whether ornot this is a big old hoax yeah,
no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
He's obviously very well um read and the game is so
well thought out and considered.
But then even he said there isan element of it that he can't
explain a very positive impactthat it seems to have.
So there is maybe an element ofmagic to it as well.
Who knows?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
yeah, he doesn't think there is some kind of
magic.
I guess You'll hear why hethinks there's a mechanism
behind this type of thing thathe explains, and he's an artist
as well.
His deck is beautiful.
His deck D-E-C-K is beautiful.
I think it's an audio feature,but if you're watching this on
(01:40):
YouTube, you'll see some oftheir design and it was nice.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, it looks really well considered and, yeah,
fantastic.
And it's not just romanticrelationships either.
It can be played betweenfriends and family as well,
obviously, if you're comfortabledoing so.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yes, absolutely All right.
Well, enjoy, listener, and wewill see you in about 50 minutes
.
Listener, want to be part ofour growing community?
Then follow us on Instagram atthe Breath Geek and at Andy Esam
for behind the scenes content,updates, snippets and more.
Dan does the fact that youcreated a game to help people
(02:24):
form relationships stem fromwider societal problems.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, of course, absolutely.
I mean I don't think a singlegame is going to solve them.
I think they're compound veryinteresting problems, but there
(03:07):
does seem to be a rise in thethought of individualism and a
disconnect, curiosity aboutpeople and finding the value in
people.
So yeah, I do think it's acomplex problem, but I don't
know.
I think, uh, people are greatand I want other people to see
how great people can be.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I guess awesome.
So could you tell us a littlebit about how the game works?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
sure, yeah, I have a copy and I've recorded.
I'll talk about what it is.
So, yeah, truth or fate is agame I designed over about four
years.
It's based on a hundreddifferent books about psychology
and connection from variousauthors, but it also has a fun
spin to it.
It's an interpersonal,authentic, relating game.
But the trick, the hook to itis, after it asks you questions,
(03:51):
it tells your future.
Like Tarot, cards was inspiredby the art of Pamela
Coleman-Smith and I did all theart with help from a great
artist named Sarah B Moore andthen designed the box and
everything.
But the way that the game worksis it's divided into three
parts the past, the present andthe future.
In the past, you draw cards andyou do what their white side
(04:14):
says.
They have a white side and thenan artistic side on the other
one and then you discard thecard, put it into a discard pile
.
In the present, you take thegame, comes with a little like
notepad of paper and everybodywrites a message to the person
to the left of them and theyexchange them sight unseen and
secret and it's just a nicelittle way to kind of clear your
(04:36):
mind and I don't know, sort ofsay whatever you want to say,
without any thought aboutjudgment, because they're not
going to be able to read ituntil they're not in your
presence.
It's kind of like a gift, apresent in the present and in
the future.
You take the discard pile thatyou've all been doing.
You turn over the card and eachcard has a prophecy written on
the bottom of it and then a pagenumber.
So you'd lay out three cardsfor someone interpret what you
(04:59):
think they mean, which issurprisingly.
Even people that have noexperience at all in tarot or
reading they do an amazing job,especially after you play the
game.
And then you'd ask somebodywhat their favorite card is, and
there's a page number on thebottom.
You just turn to that pagenumber in the book and just read
what it says.
And, like I said, every card isinspired by a book, so it'll
give you a book recommendationas well as like what the future
(05:22):
means.
So, yeah, that's Truth or Fate.
You can as well as like whatthe future means.
So, yeah, that's truth or fate.
You can play it with one personor up to eight people.
It does get longer if you havea lot of people.
I think eight is probably topsemi and somebody you could do
more if you wanted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
So we're not just talking about romantic
relationships here, then we'rekind of talking about any kind
of friendships.
I mean, is there a certainlevel of familiarity you need to
have with someone before youplay this?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I've played it on first dates many times.
I think it's awesome for it.
I've had many people say thatwas like the best date they've
ever had.
It does take a little bit, Iwould say, of priming.
There was a study done I can'tcite it directly, I remember it
was from another book but it wasbasically found that people are
more willing to answervulnerable questions than they
(06:05):
are willing to ask them, and sopart of the design of the game
is that the cards are reallyasking the questions you're not,
and then I also spent a lot oftime working on the questions to
make them not so to give you anout every time.
There's other authentic relatinggames out there, but sometimes
their questions put people inthe spotlight very quickly in
(06:25):
kind of a harsh way and theydon't give you kind of a way to
deviate and they can also drumup some pretty heavy things that
if you're not psychologicallyprepared to support those people
, can be difficult.
So I tried to keep that in mindwhen I was designing the card
mechanics and the questions tomake that so you can absolutely
play it with friends and family.
You can play it on a date.
It's a great way to trulyconnect with someone and gives
(06:48):
this sort of a simulation of anequitable, deep, compassionate
conversation.
That's why it'll feel magical,because there's some
psychological trickery in theretoo, but it's all for the
greater good.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Mischief is a big thing for me, okay so just um,
just going back to the start ofyour journey.
So we met at the biohackingconference.
You were working on arelationship stand, as obviously
you are in the business ofrelationships, but what made you
get into that?
(07:24):
What was it that made you think, oh my God, the world is really
in need of relationship help,whether it's games, whether it's
workshops.
I know there are statistics likein the past, in the 70s, a man
or a woman could say I wouldhave five people to call in an
emergency.
Now the average number is zeroDating.
I know with Gen Z, supposedlythey're not getting into
(07:45):
relationships as much, they'renot forming relationships as
much.
I'm going to look up somestatistics on that as well.
And then I know that the birthrate is such a big issue in that
we have such an agingpopulation that this could be a
civilizational threat.
I know that someone recentlysaid South Korea is done as a
country.
I know that someone recentlysaid South Korea is done as a
(08:07):
country.
It's got a 0.4 birth rate perperson and they just won't have
a replacement rate to deal withthe older people.
And I know we need to all have2.1 children to create a
replacement rate, otherwise theeconomy just collapses unless
there's something like AI andthings like that.
So were those the types ofthings that made you think right
, I'm going to take action here.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I think I have a fascination with sort of common
knowledge that's actuallyincorrect, like when you a
relationship is one of the mostimportant things to cultivate.
Your relationships will, likethey'll help you live longer,
they'll increase your quality oflife, and yet it seems like a
lot of people are just kind ofwinging it.
(08:45):
They're just sort of like Ihave friends.
Sometimes I don't necessarilytreat them that well or like oh,
I've got a girlfriend or a wifeand she married me, so my work
is done.
You know, it's not really theway that I look at it.
It's an opportunity.
Your friendships and yourpersonal intimate relationships
are an opportunity to givewithout an expectation of return
(09:09):
, and to grow with someone,whether it be friendships or the
people and that sense ofcommunity.
We evolve in tribes and smallcommunities and we have a huge
hunger for it and a longing forit.
And you can see it's actuallyit's one of the things I love
about Truth or Fate, but it alsomakes me deeply sad.
For the promotion for Truth orFate, I hired a bunch of actors
(09:30):
that hadn't met each other and Ibrought them into the set
blindfolded and they weremeeting each other for the first
time and playing the game, socomplete strangers opening up,
and I just didn't force them tosay anything, I just let them
play and at the end of it it waslike an hour and a half shoot
when it came of like two peoplecame three and it came of five.
At the end I could not getpeople to leave each other
(09:53):
because they were just like wewere rapping, trying to like get
out of there in production,trying to get things going, and
it was like you could tell thatthey were so hungry for that
connection and for people tojust ask about them that they
just didn't want to leave.
In fact, like the end of Truthor Fate, you always read the
last page to kind of bringpeople back because it can be a
(10:13):
pretty like deep and connectedexperience.
And so the end says thank youall for playing, for sharing
your stories and giving yourunique gifts.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice for sharing
your stories and giving yourunique gifts.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice.
Its magic comes from people whoare kind enough to ask, brave
enough to listen and wise enoughto care.
We always hope you choose tostand for truth and kindness,
(10:34):
always remember your future issometimes told, but it's always
made Be kind, be you begin,which is what the thing is there
.
But that phrase I deeplybelieve.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice.
It's magic comes from peoplewho are kind enough to ask,
brave enough to listen and wiseenough to care.
I believe that with every fiberof my being.
I think it is incredibly mean tonot be curious about other
(10:58):
people, and that's something Icame from the Bay Area in
California, and people do notask questions there.
That's where I am.
You from the Bay area inCalifornia, and people do not
ask questions there.
That's where I am.
You can tell, yeah, yeah, theyjust don't ask questions.
I don't I do understand it to adegree that it's like, well, we
don't have time and time ismoney, and you know we're all
kind of trying to do the best.
But it's super strange to mebecause it's like that is all of
(11:20):
my success came from justtalking to people and asking
them questions and being like,oh, how can I help you?
And then there, it's likeeveryone's trying to status top
each other and it's like you'renot going to do it that way,
like you can tell when you'reamongst people who really get it
.
They're curious about otherpeople.
It's like it's a superpower andthen brave enough to listen.
(11:40):
It's like you know sometimespeople will tell you things.
They to listen.
It's like you know, sometimespeople will tell you things.
They'll tell you what youactually need to hear.
You actually just need tolisten to it.
It's like a big lesson withinit is that criticism is if it's
coming from a place of likeanger and envy, it's bad.
But a lot of times people aretrying to tell you how they feel
about something.
So like listening to them is avaluable skill.
(12:00):
It's not just listening, likeunderstanding somebody.
I think the number oneprofession that people tend to
fall in love with things ispsychologists, therapists,
things like that.
It's just because they'reputting you in a state where
they're actually listening toyou and you can be vulnerable
and open with them and it's veryeasy to gain a connection and
then an attraction in that stateand then wise enough to care.
(12:23):
We have like a societal bingeon apathy.
It's also very exciting andcool to value youth and to not
to kind of scoff at likeexpertise.
You know, like there's movieswhere it's like scientists and I
also.
I find that so dumb.
(12:44):
Like you should care.
Apathy is lazy and it's weakand it's cowardly.
Caring is brave People that I'mincredibly.
I admire people who care a lot.
I think they're amazing andit's something that I work on
and try to care.
So yeah, I know that's a littleoff the beaten path, but I hope
that kind of answers yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, no, I really like the idea that we should be
asking more questions.
And I wonder if the Bay Area isjust because everyone here is
in tech and maybe slightlyneurodivergent and that's why
they're so good at softwareengineering but maybe not so
socially well equipped.
But yeah, there's that story.
I think it was about the wifeof an aristocrat in the UK back
(13:27):
in the 1700s.
She met Benjamin Disraeli andPitt the Younger.
They were two prime ministers,not at the same time, but one
after the other.
When she left dinner, aftersitting next to one of them, she
said I left dinner and I feltlike he was the most intelligent
man in the world.
And then she went for dinnerthe next night with the other
(13:47):
guy and he asked her loads ofquestions and seemed like he was
really interested in her.
And she said when I left, Ifelt like I was the most
intelligent person in the world.
And of course, she voted forthe man who made her feel like
the most intelligent person inthe world.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, I don't think people understand.
One of the things I really likeis that you have so much
potential Every person has somuch potential and you have so
much potential in your abilityto connect and your ability to
attract.
And attraction kind of gets alittle muddled as a word.
It can seem like manipulation,but attraction is a wonderful
thing when you're leaving thatcuriosity behind behind.
(14:27):
You're leaving behind a deep,wonderful ability to connect
with people.
That's regardless of sexualityor gender.
It's like a skill, it's like amagic.
That's kind of like truth orfate is it's magic, but it's
based on psychology.
It's a young, the Jungian, andsome Adler, other psychologists
and thoughts behind it.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So anyway, Sorry, it was Gladstone and Israeli, not
Peter Younger, Sorry.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I'm failing my A-level.
You're joking yourself.
Yeah, I like that, it's good.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I like that.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Daniel, you mentioned bravery.
I mean, is there a certainlevel of courage that it takes
to actually play this game,because it sounds like it could
be quite revealing and you haveto be quite vulnerable, and I
know some people who aren'tprepared to go there in certain
instances.
So, yeah, what's required toactually play the game?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I mean, I think anyone can answer these
questions.
I don't personally think thatthey're that.
I spent a lot of time kind oftooling with them.
There's probably maybe only twoquestions in it that I would
say are vulnerable but worthexploring.
One is why do you think itmight be difficult to be in a
relationship or in a friendshipwith you?
(15:39):
That's an interesting question,but to me, if someone is not
thinking about that and doesn'thave any recollection of that,
that's a little bit of like ared flag.
It's okay to say like, oh, like, I'm good at this, but I
actually like, if I was toanswer that question, I would
say, oh, like I can get veryfocused on the creative and what
(16:01):
could be and distract myselffrom the present and like what
is?
It's very easy for me to bestuck in the future and
relationships require you to bein the present with someone and
be there with them, and that's ayeah, that's not the most.
I mean that's probably one ofthe toughest questions in the
deck and it's not too bad.
(16:22):
I mean most of them it's morejust about exploring your
thoughts and I'm trying to kindof evoke positive emotions.
Some of them are like what isyour favorite memory.
Or you know what's the kindestthing anyone's ever said to you,
Trying to kind of evoke apositive response as opposed to
like who hurt you.
I don't say that, that's not aquestion.
(16:44):
There's definitely a value tothat, but I don't want that
right away.
There's definitely a value tothat, but I don't want that
right away.
And I'm genuinely surprised.
Even with people who are morereserved, or once you get kind
of permission, psychologicalpermission to be yourself and be
honest, people tend to justopen up.
And the other cool thing is themechanics of the cards.
Let me explain this becauseit's a little confusing, I guess
(17:05):
.
So the cards there's like threedifferent types of cards.
It's a little confusing, Iguess.
So the cards there's like threedifferent types of cards and
they're all designed based offof that concept of like you're
not asking the question, thecard is asking the question.
So it's like you want to givethe person playing kind of that
understanding, just based off ofthe mechanics.
So the first card has a littlelike planchette, a little
pointer on it, and you spin thecard, just kind of like spin the
(17:28):
bottle, and whoever pointsclosest to they answer the
question.
If it points closest to you,you answer it.
So it's not really you askingit, the card's asking it.
In that case it's also very fun.
It evokes if you ever playedspin the bottle.
It's a cool, emotional, pivotalmoment.
So it's nice to kind of bringthat up in a way.
And then the next card hasthese like three little symbols
(17:50):
on it and you would choosesomebody, and I'll just actually
choose you.
Andrew, if I were to give youthese three words, which of
these words speaks to you themost?
Trap hunt or howl Hunt thosewords to you like hunt.
And so because you said hunt, Iwould ask you to tell a story.
Actually, by looking at me,what would you guess I want the
(18:10):
most in life and don't have yetwhy?
And so that would be thequestion I would ask you.
There's no wrong answer to that, but I'm actually trying to
kind of figure outpsychologically what your
impressions are of me just bylooking at me.
It's interesting.
People don't ask that, but it'slike people make judgments and
perceptions about each other allthe time and it'd be cool to
(18:32):
know what they are.
And then you just discard itand then the final one is the
toughest one, but I think it'sthe best.
I like it.
These questions are a littlemore vulnerable, but they're not
too bad.
I'm going to give this one toRich.
So you choose somebody and youask them the question at the top
Rich in one word or a shortphrase what is a lie that you
(18:56):
think other people choose tobelieve.
After you answer, pause.
Then tell us why, in one wordor a short phrase, a lie do you
think other people choose tobelieve?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
that the life is fair and there's justice in the
world wow, wow, wow, that, wow.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
You think a lot of people believe in that
equanimity and it's not there.
That's interesting.
So fairness in that sense, kindof that.
So because you said fairness,fairness starts with an F and I
would have to read and do anactivity for the group, but if
you would have chosen a wordthat started with these letters,
I would have put this back inthe box and the game comes with
(19:32):
25 fully illustrated activitieswith like step by step.
They're all kind of designed ina group dynamic to kind of
bring people closer.
I'm very, very proud of some ofthese.
Like one of them is so freakinggood, just like it's so good,
like it's honestly like I loveit.
I don't want to toot my ownhorn too much, but it's so good,
like it's it honestly, like Ilove it.
I don't want to toot my hearttoo much, but it's so good.
(19:53):
So, yeah, they're all designedto kind of allow you to be
present with those people or tokind of give to those people.
Just that one which is just asan example yeah, oh yeah, and
that one, I would have to dosomething okay, I'm interested
in the psychology of this.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So I know you said a lot of the time the questions
are designed to elicit apositive emotion, but actually
as well negative emotions canreally bring people together,
Negative experiences, like warveterans.
They say that I was closer tothe people in my unit than I was
with anyone else, with my wife,with my family.
Sebastian Jung has written thisamazing book called Tribe.
(20:34):
All about this.
Crossfit brings people togetherbecause people suffer together.
Grief brings people together.
Talking more about thepsychology, how did you come up
with these questions?
Was there the idea ofstruggling together to bring
people together?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I mean, a lot of the questions are derived partially
from the books that they'reinspired by, and then the art as
well is inspired by that, andthe fortunes and stuff for each
one.
There's a hundred differentcards and a hundred different
books from people like EstherPerel, the Gottmans, carl Jung,
viktor Frankl all sorts of folksBooks that changed my life and
(21:11):
helped me kind of see anotherside to things, and a duality in
things.
That's something that happenswithin Truth or Fate.
That I guess.
Yeah, I'll say this, there's aduality in the cards.
Even though it's funny as a nameTruth or Fate kind of like
truth or dare it actually has adeeper meaning, because the game
was inspired by a quote by CarlJung that said until you make
(21:33):
the unconscious conscious, itwill direct your life and you
will call it fate.
And when I heard that quote itfelt like I was getting slapped
in the face by the universe andI thought, wow, that is
interesting.
So it's like, okay, truth, areyou willing to tell the truth
within the moment or are youpushing your life to fate?
Are you pushing it to theunconscious and say I'll handle
(21:56):
it?
And that's a tough question,it's not an easy one to answer.
I think there's a duality andeven in those vulnerable
questions, the darker questions,there's kind of a light.
You can see something positivein that and then even sometimes
in the purely sugar-coated happyquestions, there's a bit of a
darkness too.
To say, okay, what does thisperson value and has it
(22:18):
connected?
There was the 36 questions tofall in love that was developing
in mind.
The two sociologists I thinkcame out of like in the New York
Times and I think it was great.
But I think psychologicallythey made a huge misstep.
Because if I approached both ofyou and said, hey guys, let's
get together, let's ask eachother these questions to fall in
(22:40):
love, you'd be like what?
So?
Like what are you talking about?
Same with a lot of authenticrelating games.
If you're going going to playit with someone, the value
proposition of the game is notthere.
The difference within truth orfaith that makes interesting is
I can confidently say I can tellyour future and we will play
this game and it will tell youwhat your future is and give you
(23:03):
advice on how to make yourfuture better.
And I can 100 confidently saythat.
And that's where the game getscrazy.
It's like actually the cardsthat drop for people is wild.
I know the secrets but it'sstill amazing, even to me within
that.
But yeah, I hope that kind ofanswers your question.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, you mentioned truth-telling and making the
unconscious conscious.
So how does the game combinethat truth-telling with almost
an element of can we call itfortune telling?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
sure.
I mean the cards are dividedinto four different categories
for the fortune sides, and thatalso plays in the mechanics as
well.
Oh, that's a good one.
So there are truth cards, truthfortunes basically, which are
like kind of life advice thatyou would give pretty much to
anybody.
There are fate cards, which areall dedicated to unconscious
(23:56):
beliefs that could destroy you.
It even has there's a card foreach one of the four horsemen.
Are you familiar with that Fromthe apocalypse?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, oh well, there's the apocalypse, but no,
I mean the four horsemen of theapocalypse.
Uh, no, I'm in the fourhorsemen of apocalypse, isn't
that?
Isn't that in the revelationsof the bible?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
yeah, pestilence and, uh, I don't know, famine, I
don't know.
There's a bunch of them.
The one I'm talking about isactually john and julie gottman
set up this uh apartment intheir organization and they
would film couples over thecourse of like 20 years and John
determined that there werethese four characteristics that
would destroy any relationshipif they were left unchecked.
(24:37):
And those are the four horsemenand I think people should know
what they are and why they're sodangerous.
And that's kind of theirunconscious kind of beliefs and
ideals in truth or faith.
And there's a card for everyone.
Then there's choice cards whichwill say that there's like a
choice coming up in your life soit will split what are the four
horsemen?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
yeah, asking for a friend.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah it's good you want to know.
Yeah, yeah, I'll.
The first one that I actuallypulled the card for was
defensiveness.
That's not me, no, I knew it.
How could it be?
That's one of my favorite jokesof a friend who says anytime
somebody says the word, he'lljust like scream.
That's not what gaslightingmeans.
(25:22):
I love that.
I think it's such a funny joke.
But the next one is contempt.
And then the third one I canfind all of them is stonewalling
and the final one is criticism.
Stonewalling, contempt,criticism and defensiveness, and
(25:44):
by understanding how you kindof fall into them and the truth
of the unconscious beliefs aboutthem and stuff, I think is the
way that you kind of overcomethem.
And they're dangerous, not justin intimate relationships,
they're dangerous to yourfriendships as well.
I would say.
But then yeah, big time.
Those are the four.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
The four big ones.
Okay, so moving on to tarot, asmy Spanish wife would call it.
I love that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So what is tarot?
Well, tarot, funny enough,comes from Italian word tarosi,
which means foolishness.
It's a long, long history ofmagic through foolishness.
That's the actual origin oftarot.
That's why it's tarot but nottarot.
But I like when people saytarot, I think it's adorable.
But the idea behind it wasthere was originally you know,
(26:38):
the standard cards, diamonds,and there was originally like a
parlor set of cards that hadkings and queens or whatever,
and people developed this systemItalians that would say that
would kind of fortune tell basedoff of the sign of the card.
And then this was developedfurther by these people named
Rider Waite and I'll alwaysmention Coleman because I think
her art was amazingly importantto this as well and they
(27:01):
developed an entire occultarcana system to explain things.
But the idea behind it I wouldsay there are two sides.
Once again, there's a dualityto it.
As it is.
Actually, this is a good way toexplain the story.
Part of Truth or Fate came from.
I love planning experiences andstuff for people and I started
(27:23):
by planning dates, actuallyplanned and made a date for
someone, and after I plannedthat first date, I was like
something magical happened here.
This was, and it was me and itwas them, but it was something
else.
It was like a mini golf dateand I planned like made a card
game to accompany mini golf.
So if we like, if somebody likewon the hole, they would get a
(27:44):
question.
And then afterwards we went todinner and then the only way you
could ask the question back isif you answered like a dare.
So I had like two decks.
It was kind of very simplemechanics, but that night was
like the person was like I feltamazing, that was awesome, thank
you.
And I was like wow, this isinteresting.
I'm going to keep doing this.
I'm learning from it and I did.
And one of the dates I plannedwas an arrow archery date, where
(28:08):
I made these like targets andwherever the arrow I like do
archery on the side.
So wherever the arrow landed,we would go and do that activity
.
Like I made special targets.
So it's like the arrow was kindof like a fate date, a date
decided by fate, and one of thearrows landed.
I'm going to go see a fortuneteller together.
I'd never done that before.
This was like five years agonow.
So it was like five years agonow.
(28:30):
So it was like okay, cool, Iwas like I'd heard it was
recommended to go with a date toa fortune teller.
This would be great.
So we did this like cute little, like yellow house in Campbell
California.
We live in South Bay Well,maybe she's still there, I don't
know.
She had a huge impact on my lifefrom this and so I like sat
down and I'm like pretty awareof improv and cold reading
decent at it.
(28:50):
So I'm like I'm gonna get coldread.
This will be cool.
And this person's gonna likesee that I'm on a date.
They're gonna alley, oop, helpme out, uh.
And she's like are you sure youwant me to read your guys's
futures?
So I was like, yeah, sure we'retogether.
And she's like, okay, and so wesit down and she turns over a
couple of cards.
She looks at me and says youput more effort into
(29:12):
relationships than anyone you'veever met before.
Until you meet someone who putsin the same amount of effort,
you're not going to be in lovewith them, you're not in love
with her and you never will be.
Wow, absolutely destroyed thedate.
This was third date.
I've had a lot of goodwill, butjust absolutely killed that
(29:32):
date.
Like I mean, it was like theentire mood, energy, everything
changed and it was we kind ofleft in the wake of it.
She also said some very kind ofpersonal and pretty accurate
things about a date and I waskind of like just bewildered by
it, although I understood it andpart of like my way of
understanding it was developingtruth or fate.
(29:55):
So it was like what happenswithin tarot card reading is
somebody reads cards for you.
You believe that what they aresaying is true and then it comes
true and then it comes true andthat, if you understand the
mechanics of that, people putway too much emphasis on that
someone's reading your truth.
They should put more emphasison that.
(30:15):
You believe what they're sayingis true and how it changes your
life.
That's where all the magichappens within tarot.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
So so is that like law of attraction.
Then is that what's at work?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
there kind of it's a little bit of both.
There's once again psychologyand magic together.
There's this effect inpsychology called the barnum for
effect we were.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What is that from barnum and barnum statements and
the circus.
You know, it was the film.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Yeah, yeah for sure, every person's a sucker, but it
actually.
The four part is moreinteresting to me and it's also
kind of sad and so I like it asa story.
So Forer was a psychologist andat the end of one of his
semesters he's a professor hesaid I've been analyzing my
entire class this entiresemester.
I'm going to hand you all apiece of paper based off of my
(31:05):
analyzations and I'll tell youlike you tell me how accurately
I analyzed you.
So he handed out a piece ofpaper.
Everyone was like, oh my gosh,I think he averaged like a 97%.
It was in the 90s, very high.
The people were like, wow,you're like the real deal.
The thing is he wrote the exactsame thing on everybody's piece
of paper.
(31:33):
And there is a reality, aprofile in that enforcer's
profile that everybody adheresto.
And if you can vaguely kind ofspeak confidently within that
profile, it will apply to anyone.
And also our brains,psychologically, are primed to
want to align.
When somebody tells ussomething about ourselves, we
want to believe that it's true.
I mean even just law ofattraction, aside from a perfect
perspective.
If I tell you today, blue cars,blue cars, blue cars, you will
(31:56):
see blue cars.
You always saw them before, butyou didn't notice them.
You're just priming your mindto kind of look for that truth
and to follow that pathway, andthat's really where,
psychologically, the magic comesfrom.
But there are some weird thingstoo when you get into this
community and the way thatpeople have, like, dedicated
their lives to it, and I've metpeople who run giant companies
(32:18):
who run their decisions basedoff of tarot cards, which is
wild, but it's interesting inthat regard.
So I don't know if I'm takingthat as well.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah Well, some people are going to think this
is Tarot's a hoax.
I recently watched got intoPeaky Blinders in there in one
episode Not a spoiler alert butone of the ladies goes to a
fortune teller and she tells herthis thing and then she really
believes it and she's cryingbecause there's terrible things
happened.
And then this other gypsy agypsy family, another gypsy
(32:49):
comes and tells them did you goto see that fortune teller?
Oh yeah, everyone knows aboutit, because what they do is they
find out what you alreadybelieve and then just confirm it
.
So it is like it is a trick,it's not magic and things like
that.
So how do you defend tarotagainst people who would accuse
it of being a hoax?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I, people who would accuse it of being a hoax.
I think the thing that's toughis that there are two sides to
everything.
I like when people discuss bothsides.
I find that interesting.
So on the one side, absolutelyYou're putting people in a very
vulnerable situation because Iknow psychologically both of you
are primed right now that if Ispoke confidently about your
(33:26):
futures, you would, even if youdidn't want to, subconsciously
you'd probably partially believeme, especially based off of
even if I had like a perfunctorySherlock Holmes level.
You know, if I had like a lowskill and I could kind of put it
together, you would want tobelieve it.
And it's also an interesting,it's a very satisfying thing to
be analyzed in that way.
On the other side of it, I thinkthere's nothing more dangerous
(33:50):
to people than the things thatthey leave unsaid and having
somebody in your life that youcan talk to openly and honestly
whether that be a therapist, Ithink, who's better trained for
it or in a lot of cases, that'swhat these tarot readers become.
Is they become this sort ofthing for people to talk about
their future and hopes for thefuture and other stuff like that
(34:11):
.
Now, is that right or wrong?
Especially if you're likemanipulating them and say, oh,
you need to come back to me.
I don't like that, but I dolike the idea of people being
honest and thinking about thedecisions that they have to make
in the future and future tothemselves.
I think there are therapistswho are manipulative and we're
like, well, you need to comeback to me.
(34:31):
I think that's something my dadlikes to say.
Is what do you call the guythat graduated bottom of this
medical class?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, my doctor, Dr Blake.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
So I think I mean I'm a believer in the five
agreements probably soon to besix when they discover new ones
but one of them is to listen butbe skeptical, and I think that
that's a valuable thing to do isto say, oh wow, like there is
good in this, there is bad inthis, and I would say that
that's true of a lot of things.
The thing that I will say thatI've been Absolutely surprised
(35:09):
and delighted by is the tarotcommunity has been incredibly
welcoming and inviting to me,and I haven't gotten any of the
gatekeeping or any of the stuffthat I really did expect to see.
People are incrediblyenthusiastic and are, like, very
excited about the deck that arein the space, and I'm very
(35:29):
honored and actually very happyabout that.
It's very, very, very cool.
It's nice to feel that wayinstead of feeling like, oh,
like I made a deck too, and Idon't want people to be mad at
me for that.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So I don't know if that answers question overall
yeah, well, I have done quite abit of sort of you know, not
necessarily, not necessarilytarot, but you know, psi ability
type thing.
I did like an eight weekprogram at the Royal Institute
not of chartered surveyors, Idid do that separately the Royal
Society for like psychicability it was founded by Sir
(36:03):
Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote youknow, my wife's done quite a
lot of that stuff.
She's in like a mediumshipgroup, or she was when she was
in London, and she often doesreadings for our friends and
family.
Wow, I'm still on the fence,though.
I'm not sure whether or not itis just people being very
(36:25):
skilled at reading someone andtelling them what they want to
hear, or if there's actuallysome kind of magic, psychic
ability.
And I've read a lot of work by.
I've forgotten all the books'names, but I've read a lot of
books on this stuff and I'mstill not convinced.
So are you convinced thatthere's something magical
happening and that some peoplehave magical abilities?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I can't definitively say.
I don't really fully know.
I understand the value of likehaving a firm belief and like
standing up for a belief andthings like that.
When someone says, oh, there'sno, I would say I'm more
agnostic than anything.
When someone says there's nofricking way or whatever, it's
like actually there absolutelyis a possibility of it, does it
(37:09):
mean that I'm going to likechange my life completely for it
or like not, you know, listenand still be skeptical?
No, but I do think diminishingthe power of belief in that
regard would be a mistake.
I mean, a placebo effect isinsane, something just based off
of belief that is studyableagain and again and again and
(37:32):
it's accepted as fact and yetpeople think about it in medical
terms it's like, well, it couldcompletely apply to your life
and the way that you addressthings.
And that alone my partner wentthrough like a side K experience
, like a course work with theclass, which is like kind of
modifying psychologically yourdeep beliefs and trying to kind
(37:54):
of reprogram the way you thinkand believe on a deep level.
And I find it to be yourbeliefs kind of form, your
thoughts, which form youractions, which then form your
beliefs again, and it's thislittle sort of cycle and so I
don't want to diminish thatrelationship and the power of
that, because I have experiencedsome weird things with belief
(38:16):
as well, things when I'm likeI've read Power of the
Subconscious Mind by JosephMurphy, interesting to me,
entire Joe Dispenza's work andthere's other.
There's just stuff that is justit's strange and you could
obviously there's everyoneshould do work within
correlation versus causation aswell, a grain of salt.
(38:37):
But at the same time I thinkit's interesting.
I think that it seems like themore we know, the more there's a
lot of space within the unknownand I don't want to
definitively say, oh, it'sbullshit, I don't believe any of
it, because it's like I don'tknow, it's a strange thing to
see, oh, it's bullshit, I don'tbelieve any of it, because it's
like I don't know it's a strangething to see so as rich was
asking that answer.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
But no, no, I was thinking.
As rich was asking thatquestion, I was reminded of one
of the many retreats that hesent me on.
Rich sent me on this one thingcalled the path of love and it's
been meticulously put togetherand honed in.
There's a lot of psychologicalresearch that sits behind it.
Parallels to your game in somuch as you put so much you said
like 100 psychology books, somuch has gone into it and yet
(39:18):
there's still that level.
Even the organizers of path oflove don't understand.
They say it brings out somesort of magic they have no
answers to.
And in the same way you saidthere were those moments in your
games and maybe when you gotthose actors in to launch the
game, you just thought what ishappening here?
So is that what we're talkingabout here?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
yeah, I've been very fortunate and lucky enough to
have lived like 37.
But I've had a lot of differentexperiences and stuff and it
was in the bay area as a motiondesigner and event designer and
other stuff and then moved overhere and with part of a bunch of
like artistic miscreants andthings like that out there.
But you'd come across stuff andone time I was giving a friend
(39:57):
a ride to like a christmas partyin the bay and he was like you
should go to this workshop.
I just think you should go.
And I was like getting cultyvibes from what you're saying.
But I was like I'm gonna go,I'm gonna say yes and see what
it was.
And the group was the HumanAwareness Institute out in.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Northern Ireland.
Oh yeah, I went to a tastersession of those in the UK Big
culty vibes.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, my experience of that workshop I was very
impressed with the way that theylaid it out and there was a
sense of magic over that weekend.
It's literally just peopletalking to each other and
connecting on a very deep leveland it's just people are just
starving for it.
It's sad, but it's just thatpeople are really starving for
(40:47):
it.
And, like I said, that quotewas something I thought of while
I was there that it's verydangerous to you to leave things
unsaid and so like havingsomeone in your life that you
can talk to and you trustwhether it be friends,
therapists, your family orsomething I think is a really
important thing.
And if that's a tarot person aswell, I would just hope that
(41:07):
that person was kind enough tolisten and also be kind and not
manipulate them.
But I have seen both wayswithin that.
But, yeah, I would recommendHuman Awareness Institute.
By the way, I was a littleafraid of that as well.
I was like I'm going to be ontheir mailing list and they're
going to tell me to wear whitelinens and leave my family
behind, and I was like I've beenaround folks like that before
(41:31):
but didn't seem that way, atleast at the workshop and stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
I was very impressed with it and it was a great
experience for me, okay yeah, no, I just went to like afternoon
in london and we just I don'tknow, maybe it's just the people
there were.
Just you know, you don't haveto like everyone, so maybe we
just had a bad group.
So, andy, I won't be sendingyou on that one, so you're
welcome.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
How did that go?
And that was the other-.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, it was really good yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, path of Love.
Yeah, that's in Boulder.
Well ahead of it is in Boulder.
I just had lunch with him theother week.
I would definitely recommendPath of Love, yeah, but I just
want to pick up on the pointwhere you say people are
starving for connection.
That's definitely true.
A lot of people are.
However, I do have some friendswho are not starving for
connection and they don't seethe value of friendship and
(42:17):
relationship.
I know one of them will belistening to this and I'm always
trying to tell him you shouldhave some more friends.
He's got three kids and a wifeand he's got a very happy family
and he loves his routines andhe's very healthy and he does
his ice baths and triathlonfamily and he loves his routines
and he's very healthy and hedoes his ice baths and triathlon
.
Also, he lives abroad, he livesin China, and he doesn't have
the same camaraderie as he wouldwith his school friends.
(42:39):
So why do you think peopleshould have relationships?
Because I'm always strugglingto say, like you should have
more friends, and he's just likewhy Are they annoying me?
Like it's really hard toorganize things with them?
I'm much better when I'm justin charge with my family and
they provide social connection.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I don't need any for it I love the quote from uh
james clear that you won't riseto the level of your goals,
ambitions or dreams, but you'llfall to the level of your
systems.
So he's created a social systemwithin there, within his family
, and that's like providing himwith that emotional connection.
So far, however, if thatfalters, if that's your single
(43:14):
source of emotional connection,and it absolutely can, or like
you might, do somethingdestructive or be unaware that
you're doing somethingdestructive within those,
without context of other peopleand exposure to other
relationships, friendships andthings like that, and as you get
older, it's just there'snothing, I know.
It's sort of like oh my gosh,the effort, the effort to,
(43:35):
especially in today's day andage, the flakiness is unreal,
unbelievable, but it is part oftruth, or faith's understanding
is that giving is not reallygiving.
It's like you will receive.
You just have to kind of keepreally giving.
It's like you will receive.
You just have to kind of keepbelieving and giving to those
(43:56):
relationships from a place ofkindness and be realistic,
listen, but be skeptical and say, okay, like is this person just
using me in this case?
And should I like, do I?
I should talk to them aboutthat if I'm feeling this way.
But on the other side of things, your friendships will open up
entire gateways like lives thatyou just never would have
(44:16):
imagined.
Friends I met, I got into eventplanning because of a friend of
a friend, and then my entirecareer, any of my wealth and
stuff came from just chasingthat down.
I would consider myself heavilyintroverted, but I can't deny
the positive, gigantic effectthat other people have had on my
life, and I mean as much ashe's had probably gigantic
(44:39):
negative effects from somepeople.
I would bet if you talk to himthere was probably some people,
including yourself, that havehad a grand effect and it's like
well, why wouldn't you wantmore of that and more of a
perspective?
Relationships become thesemirrors to us that we can't see
things about ourselves thatother people can clearly see.
(45:00):
There's a comedian and a writerthat I follow named Dan Harmon,
and he has a friend, an amazingwriter, creator friend, named
Rob Schrapp, who did thisawesome graphic novel and they
went to this acting classtogether one day and I thought
this was brilliant.
The premise of the acting classwas that you get typecasted as
a certain role and you shouldn'ttry to fight against that.
You should try to figure outwhat that role is and then lead
(45:21):
into it, which is very smart Ifyou think about it.
People are trying to do it andso he said what they did was you
would walk into a room andpeople tell you their first
impressions of you.
And he said you know, they'rein like tiny little groups.
And his friend Rob he heard himin another room saying I'm not
C-3PO.
I was like very mad about it,but that's exactly what C-3PO
(45:44):
would say and I thought that wasso funny and interesting that
it's like, oh, like you.
The value you get from seeingyourself from other people's
eyes is insane.
I used to hate criticism.
I love criticism.
The best possible things comefrom like why did Rich feel this
way about me?
Why did Andrew think this?
(46:05):
What was that about?
And instead of just being like,ah, he's a dick or whatever, to
truly understand that, you willfind gold, like absolute gold,
the people that have chased that.
They've made entire careers forbetter or for worse, and I
think it's a wonderful thing andthat's only established through
people.
So, from an economicalstandpoint, from a social
(46:27):
standpoint and also medicalstandpoint, there's I'm sure
there's tons of documentationabout how your relationships
extend your life and they'reimportant to your ecosystem.
Personally, people are goodpeople are good.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Hell is other people, according to john yeah, that's
one funny.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Yeah, I'd say like both.
I think there's just a value induality and looking at both
sides of it, because certainlythere are.
It's uh, I remember who saidthat originally, but it's like
you feed the wolf, like you havetwo wolves inside you and you
you feed the one that helps you.
I like that idea is that you'relike, okay, like I can
(47:13):
absolutely look at this bothways and I'm comfortable looking
at this both ways, but I haveto kind of see it.
See, there are human atrocitiesthat are insane and people are
capable of absolutely terrible,horrible things, but they're
also capable of wonderful thingsand your life and the life's
further.
So it's like, what would youlike like to do?
(47:34):
Would you like to live in thatworld or would you like to try
to support and encourage thepositive wolf?
I guess in my mind it's hard tosay, hard to do, but yeah, I
like sartre too.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
So yeah, the two wolves.
I think it's a native americanparable.
I've got it here.
Actually, just chat gbt.
I'm going to read it, sorry.
A grandfather tells hisgrandson about a battle between
two wolves inside everyone.
One wolf represents evil,including anger, envy and greed.
The other wolf represents good,including joy, peace, love and
(48:05):
hope.
The grandson asks which wolfwins?
The grandfather replies the oneyou feed.
So there you go, that's storytime very good.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, it's good I like I mean I really can say one
of the books that's recommendedin truth or fate is by brown
o'weiss.
It's called 101 essays.
To change the way you thinkthat's a phenomenal book.
She just kind of lists it outand some of them are gut punches
.
One of them that was reallyvaluable to me is she said okay,
I want you to like write outthe things, the behaviors,
(48:37):
beliefs, the things that you seeon the people that you hate or
dislike, and really spend timeto do it.
And then you guys almost allknow this, you can sense it.
She's like okay, how are thesemirrors and things that you see
in yourself?
Yeah, and you're like, ugh, andthat is a very valuable.
(48:59):
I mean, that's a very.
When I feel those negativethings greed, envy, jealousy,
anger instead of viewing them aslike negative things, I kind of
view them as indicators of likewhat do I need to sort of see
in myself that's happening hereand what can I kind of learn
from that?
And the same I would say on theother side of it.
I've just been reading this bookcalled like I think it's called
(49:21):
hacking american minds,basically talking about how, as
a society, we've kind of lostthe connection between pleasure
and happiness like that.
There's a big separationbetween those two and I don't
think maliciously, but I thinkjust because it worked.
We developed as a society waysof getting people to buy more,
(49:43):
consumerism and also to sellingto individuals as opposed to
selling to groups.
Because if you think about itfrom a business standpoint, that
makes more sense sell to theindividual, you make more money,
but that diminishes the powerof groups and the power of
communities, and people sense it.
You can just tell when they'rein a communal thing they're like
oh my god, why can't lifealways be this way?
(50:04):
And it the truth is it, can youjust have to kind of believe in
it and support it that way, sokind of police it in your
yourself and then and otherpeople, I guess yeah, all right
I can say it's clear yourinterests extend far beyond
truth or fate, although it'sawesome that you're launching
(50:25):
that soon.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
So can you tell us a little bit more about your kind
of your future, what you'reworking on next?
Speaker 3 (50:31):
yeah, I mean truth or fate.
It's already out, it's instores and you can buy it on
truth or fatecom if you want.
I'm doing everything myself, soso it'll be me shipping it to
you.
But yeah, it's been really cool.
It's gone over all over theworld and people have great
feedback.
I want to.
I'm in the process of creating afollow-up game based on the
(50:52):
things that I've learned.
That acts as an expansion to it, but also there's a standalone
game very exciting.
I'm not going to talk too muchmore about it, but I'm going to
try to get a kickstarter out bythis year I think by the end of
this year for that one and Ithink it's very cool, it's
tested really well and, uh, Ilike it a lot.
Once again, learn from yourcriticisms, don't be mad about
(51:13):
them.
Truth or fates All of its goodthings came from criticisms.
I also have other games thatI'm designing and working on
more med spaces.
I work with Spectra Artspace inDenver.
They do little art spaces intheir back of house house and
then they sell artist merch inthe front, and I think there's a
(51:34):
lot more potential withinimmersive art experiences, and I
like making board and cardgames.
I have other games that I'm indevelopment for that have
nothing to do with tarot but aremore developed to try to create
positive social experienceswith friends and loved ones and
stuff like that.
Create positive socialexperiences with friends and
loved ones and stuff like that.
I think there's a lot of spacewithin authentic relating games
(51:56):
for improvement with gamemechanics and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's pretty much most ofit.
Yeah, and how do people findyou?
I run all the Truth or Fatestuff truthorfatecom, truth or
Fate on Instagram, tiktok, whileit's still around.
I need to put more content tothat.
I'm a pretty busy person.
(52:16):
I also animate under the nameshiny and shiny posts, so I'm a
professional animator andillustrator designer.
And then, yeah, we'll be havinga lodge party for truth or fate
in Denver within the nextcouple of months.
That'll be really fun.
I'll be designing all the nextcouple months.
That'll be really fun.
I'll be designing all theexperiences there and that'll be
cool.
But, yeah, you can reach me atany of those things.
(52:37):
It's all me clicking away.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
So awesome, fantastic .
Well, best of luck with all ofit.
I'll um be following closelyand, um, yeah, thanks so much
for giving your time.
It's it's a fascinating conceptand nothing out nothing else
like it out there, so, yeah, I'msure it'll do well.
Welcome back, listener.
Hope you enjoyed thatconversation as much as I did.
Um rich.
(53:00):
What do we learn?
Speaker 1 (53:02):
I learn a lot.
I learned that relationshipsmatter and friends are good and
we need more friends becausewe'll be happier, healthier.
Uh, I learned about the fourhorsemen.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
I was gonna say I did love that bit, I know I was
like there's a tick box,exercise in what rich does in
his relationship.
The four horsemen, yeah, um,yeah, that was so he wasn't
gonna go there and then suddenlyyou're just like um, what are
the four horsemen?
Um, that really interesting.
Yeah, I love the um.
(53:36):
I love when he described the uhmoment with the actors when
they kind of didn't want tobreak from the game because it
was just so um, I guess, someaningful.
So makes me really want to playit.
Maybe you and I should play itone time, mitch, yeah we should,
yes, we should.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
When next time we're in person, maybe I'll buy Dan's
game and we'll get even closerand get into that in some regard
, I can leave it there.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, okay, okay, it made you awkward enough.
Yeah, yeah, but it's also verycompelling.
You know, you think if he putsthat much effort and um thought
into that kind of game and ithas that kind of impact, you
know where, where is he going togo next?
Because he's obviously someonewho's got such varied interests
and such a wealth of knowledge.
(54:23):
So I'm intrigued.
He's only he said he's 37, solots more to come.
Very young, I turned 37 yeah,exactly I've got a vested
interest in thinking thatobviously so have you.
But uh, no, it's a very cooldude and, um, yeah, he's, uh,
he's in colorado.
So I guess, if any of ourlisteners uh want to check out
those spaces that he mentioned,uh make sure you do that yeah,
(54:47):
absolutely all right.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Well, thank listener Andy.
Where do they find us?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Oh, great question.
Laughing through the pain andnavigating wellness on all good
and bad podcasting sites.
Rich is at the Breath Geek onInstagram, I am at Andy Esam and
Rich has got a website which isrichardlblakecom.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
And thebreathgeekcom.
Yeah, you nailed it.
They're both right, I'm justkidding.
Okay, Just running.
And how could the listener helpus if they liked our show?
Andy?
Speaker 2 (55:20):
Leave a review, ideally with five stars or the
equivalent, on whateverpodcasting thing you're looking
for, and leave some words aswell.
Words are always helpful and,as we just learned from Daniel,
we learned from criticism aswell, so if you've got any
comments, send them our way.
Don't be afraid Pull us up onanything.
Ideally not in the review.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah, I am very sensitive to criticism, so if
you do criticize me, expect tobe criticized back.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, Criticize Richard through me and I will
filter it in a way that I thinkhe can understand.
Thanks so much for listening,always looking to improve and
hopefully shining some light onsome great people.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Yeah, all right, thanks listener, thanks Andy,
and thanks Dan, see ya, bye-bye.
Hello and welcome back to Laughing Through the
Pain Navigating Wellness with me, Richard L Blake and Andy Sam.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello Andy, it's great to see you, as always, are
you all right?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yes, that's fine.
We have spoken to Dan Schreiner.
So Dan is a game designer,effectively.
So he has created this gamecalled Truth or Fate, which is a
relationship game, and it hasaspects of psychology.
He's read like a hundredpsychology books to create this
(00:34):
game and tarot, so it's got abit of this kind of fortune
telling type thing.
So we delve into, well, thepsychology of relationships, why
we need help with relationships.
What's happened to society thatpeople need games to be able to
form relationships as well as,uh, tarot.
What is tarot is it?
Is it a hoax?
We ask him that is it a hoax?
(00:55):
So you'll find out whether ornot this is a big old hoax yeah,
no, I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
He's obviously very well um read and the game is so
well thought out and considered.
But then even he said there isan element of it that he can't
explain a very positive impactthat it seems to have.
So there is maybe an element ofmagic to it as well.
Who knows?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
yeah, he doesn't think there is some kind of
magic.
I guess You'll hear why hethinks there's a mechanism
behind this type of thing thathe explains, and he's an artist
as well.
His deck is beautiful.
His deck D-E-C-K is beautiful.
I think it's an audio feature,but if you're watching this on
(01:40):
YouTube, you'll see some oftheir design and it was nice.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, it looks really well considered and, yeah,
fantastic.
And it's not just romanticrelationships either.
It can be played betweenfriends and family as well,
obviously, if you're comfortabledoing so.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yes, absolutely All right.
Well, enjoy, listener, and wewill see you in about 50 minutes
.
Listener, want to be part ofour growing community?
Then follow us on Instagram atthe Breath Geek and at Andy Esam
for behind the scenes content,updates, snippets and more.
Dan does the fact that youcreated a game to help people
(02:24):
form relationships stem fromwider societal problems.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, of course, absolutely.
I mean I don't think a singlegame is going to solve them.
I think they're compound veryinteresting problems, but there
(03:07):
does seem to be a rise in thethought of individualism and a
disconnect, curiosity aboutpeople and finding the value in
people.
So yeah, I do think it's acomplex problem, but I don't
know.
I think, uh, people are greatand I want other people to see
how great people can be.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I guess awesome.
So could you tell us a littlebit about how the game works?
Speaker 3 (03:27):
sure, yeah, I have a copy and I've recorded.
I'll talk about what it is.
So, yeah, truth or fate is agame I designed over about four
years.
It's based on a hundreddifferent books about psychology
and connection from variousauthors, but it also has a fun
spin to it.
It's an interpersonal,authentic, relating game.
But the trick, the hook to itis, after it asks you questions,
(03:51):
it tells your future.
Like Tarot, cards was inspiredby the art of Pamela
Coleman-Smith and I did all theart with help from a great
artist named Sarah B Moore andthen designed the box and
everything.
But the way that the game worksis it's divided into three
parts the past, the present andthe future.
In the past, you draw cards andyou do what their white side
(04:14):
says.
They have a white side and thenan artistic side on the other
one and then you discard thecard, put it into a discard pile
.
In the present, you take thegame, comes with a little like
notepad of paper and everybodywrites a message to the person
to the left of them and theyexchange them sight unseen and
secret and it's just a nicelittle way to kind of clear your
(04:36):
mind and I don't know, sort ofsay whatever you want to say,
without any thought aboutjudgment, because they're not
going to be able to read ituntil they're not in your
presence.
It's kind of like a gift, apresent in the present and in
the future.
You take the discard pile thatyou've all been doing.
You turn over the card and eachcard has a prophecy written on
the bottom of it and then a pagenumber.
So you'd lay out three cardsfor someone interpret what you
(04:59):
think they mean, which issurprisingly.
Even people that have noexperience at all in tarot or
reading they do an amazing job,especially after you play the
game.
And then you'd ask somebodywhat their favorite card is, and
there's a page number on thebottom.
You just turn to that pagenumber in the book and just read
what it says.
And, like I said, every card isinspired by a book, so it'll
give you a book recommendationas well as like what the future
(05:22):
means.
So, yeah, that's Truth or Fate.
You can as well as like whatthe future means.
So, yeah, that's truth or fate.
You can play it with one personor up to eight people.
It does get longer if you havea lot of people.
I think eight is probably topsemi and somebody you could do
more if you wanted.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
So we're not just talking about romantic
relationships here, then we'rekind of talking about any kind
of friendships.
I mean, is there a certainlevel of familiarity you need to
have with someone before youplay this?
Speaker 3 (05:44):
I've played it on first dates many times.
I think it's awesome for it.
I've had many people say thatwas like the best date they've
ever had.
It does take a little bit, Iwould say, of priming.
There was a study done I can'tcite it directly, I remember it
was from another book but it wasbasically found that people are
more willing to answervulnerable questions than they
(06:05):
are willing to ask them, and sopart of the design of the game
is that the cards are reallyasking the questions you're not,
and then I also spent a lot oftime working on the questions to
make them not so to give you anout every time.
There's other authentic relatinggames out there, but sometimes
their questions put people inthe spotlight very quickly in
(06:25):
kind of a harsh way and theydon't give you kind of a way to
deviate and they can also drumup some pretty heavy things that
if you're not psychologicallyprepared to support those people
, can be difficult.
So I tried to keep that in mindwhen I was designing the card
mechanics and the questions tomake that so you can absolutely
play it with friends and family.
You can play it on a date.
It's a great way to trulyconnect with someone and gives
(06:48):
this sort of a simulation of anequitable, deep, compassionate
conversation.
That's why it'll feel magical,because there's some
psychological trickery in theretoo, but it's all for the
greater good.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Mischief is a big thing for me, okay so just um,
just going back to the start ofyour journey.
So we met at the biohackingconference.
You were working on arelationship stand, as obviously
you are in the business ofrelationships, but what made you
get into that?
(07:24):
What was it that made you think, oh my God, the world is really
in need of relationship help,whether it's games, whether it's
workshops.
I know there are statistics likein the past, in the 70s, a man
or a woman could say I wouldhave five people to call in an
emergency.
Now the average number is zeroDating.
I know with Gen Z, supposedlythey're not getting into
(07:45):
relationships as much, they'renot forming relationships as
much.
I'm going to look up somestatistics on that as well.
And then I know that the birthrate is such a big issue in that
we have such an agingpopulation that this could be a
civilizational threat.
I know that someone recentlysaid South Korea is done as a
country.
I know that someone recentlysaid South Korea is done as a
(08:07):
country.
It's got a 0.4 birth rate perperson and they just won't have
a replacement rate to deal withthe older people.
And I know we need to all have2.1 children to create a
replacement rate, otherwise theeconomy just collapses unless
there's something like AI andthings like that.
So were those the types ofthings that made you think right
, I'm going to take action here.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
I think I have a fascination with sort of common
knowledge that's actuallyincorrect, like when you a
relationship is one of the mostimportant things to cultivate.
Your relationships will, likethey'll help you live longer,
they'll increase your quality oflife, and yet it seems like a
lot of people are just kind ofwinging it.
(08:45):
They're just sort of like Ihave friends.
Sometimes I don't necessarilytreat them that well or like oh,
I've got a girlfriend or a wifeand she married me, so my work
is done.
You know, it's not really theway that I look at it.
It's an opportunity.
Your friendships and yourpersonal intimate relationships
are an opportunity to givewithout an expectation of return
(09:09):
, and to grow with someone,whether it be friendships or the
people and that sense ofcommunity.
We evolve in tribes and smallcommunities and we have a huge
hunger for it and a longing forit.
And you can see it's actuallyit's one of the things I love
about Truth or Fate, but it alsomakes me deeply sad.
For the promotion for Truth orFate, I hired a bunch of actors
(09:30):
that hadn't met each other and Ibrought them into the set
blindfolded and they weremeeting each other for the first
time and playing the game, socomplete strangers opening up,
and I just didn't force them tosay anything, I just let them
play and at the end of it it waslike an hour and a half shoot
when it came of like two peoplecame three and it came of five.
At the end I could not getpeople to leave each other
(09:53):
because they were just like wewere rapping, trying to like get
out of there in production,trying to get things going, and
it was like you could tell thatthey were so hungry for that
connection and for people tojust ask about them that they
just didn't want to leave.
In fact, like the end of Truthor Fate, you always read the
last page to kind of bringpeople back because it can be a
(10:13):
pretty like deep and connectedexperience.
And so the end says thank youall for playing, for sharing
your stories and giving yourunique gifts.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice for sharing
your stories and giving yourunique gifts.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice.
Its magic comes from people whoare kind enough to ask, brave
enough to listen and wise enoughto care.
We always hope you choose tostand for truth and kindness,
(10:34):
always remember your future issometimes told, but it's always
made Be kind, be you begin,which is what the thing is there
.
But that phrase I deeplybelieve.
Truth or Fate is a guide, butit's also a choice.
It's magic comes from peoplewho are kind enough to ask,
brave enough to listen and wiseenough to care.
I believe that with every fiberof my being.
I think it is incredibly mean tonot be curious about other
(10:58):
people, and that's something Icame from the Bay Area in
California, and people do notask questions there.
That's where I am.
You from the Bay area inCalifornia, and people do not
ask questions there.
That's where I am.
You can tell, yeah, yeah, theyjust don't ask questions.
I don't I do understand it to adegree that it's like, well, we
don't have time and time ismoney, and you know we're all
kind of trying to do the best.
But it's super strange to mebecause it's like that is all of
(11:20):
my success came from justtalking to people and asking
them questions and being like,oh, how can I help you?
And then there, it's likeeveryone's trying to status top
each other and it's like you'renot going to do it that way,
like you can tell when you'reamongst people who really get it
.
They're curious about otherpeople.
It's like it's a superpower andthen brave enough to listen.
(11:40):
It's like you know sometimespeople will tell you things.
They to listen.
It's like you know, sometimespeople will tell you things.
They'll tell you what youactually need to hear.
You actually just need tolisten to it.
It's like a big lesson withinit is that criticism is if it's
coming from a place of likeanger and envy, it's bad.
But a lot of times people aretrying to tell you how they feel
about something.
So like listening to them is avaluable skill.
(12:00):
It's not just listening, likeunderstanding somebody.
I think the number oneprofession that people tend to
fall in love with things ispsychologists, therapists,
things like that.
It's just because they'reputting you in a state where
they're actually listening toyou and you can be vulnerable
and open with them and it's veryeasy to gain a connection and
then an attraction in that stateand then wise enough to care.
(12:23):
We have like a societal bingeon apathy.
It's also very exciting andcool to value youth and to not
to kind of scoff at likeexpertise.
You know, like there's movieswhere it's like scientists and I
also.
I find that so dumb.
(12:44):
Like you should care.
Apathy is lazy and it's weakand it's cowardly.
Caring is brave People that I'mincredibly.
I admire people who care a lot.
I think they're amazing andit's something that I work on
and try to care.
So yeah, I know that's a littleoff the beaten path, but I hope
that kind of answers yourquestion.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, no, I really like the idea that we should be
asking more questions.
And I wonder if the Bay Area isjust because everyone here is
in tech and maybe slightlyneurodivergent and that's why
they're so good at softwareengineering but maybe not so
socially well equipped.
But yeah, there's that story.
I think it was about the wifeof an aristocrat in the UK back
(13:27):
in the 1700s.
She met Benjamin Disraeli andPitt the Younger.
They were two prime ministers,not at the same time, but one
after the other.
When she left dinner, aftersitting next to one of them, she
said I left dinner and I feltlike he was the most intelligent
man in the world.
And then she went for dinnerthe next night with the other
(13:47):
guy and he asked her loads ofquestions and seemed like he was
really interested in her.
And she said when I left, Ifelt like I was the most
intelligent person in the world.
And of course, she voted forthe man who made her feel like
the most intelligent person inthe world.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, I don't think people understand.
One of the things I really likeis that you have so much
potential Every person has somuch potential and you have so
much potential in your abilityto connect and your ability to
attract.
And attraction kind of gets alittle muddled as a word.
It can seem like manipulation,but attraction is a wonderful
thing when you're leaving thatcuriosity behind behind.
(14:27):
You're leaving behind a deep,wonderful ability to connect
with people.
That's regardless of sexualityor gender.
It's like a skill, it's like amagic.
That's kind of like truth orfate is it's magic, but it's
based on psychology.
It's a young, the Jungian, andsome Adler, other psychologists
and thoughts behind it.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So anyway, Sorry, it was Gladstone and Israeli, not
Peter Younger, Sorry.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
I'm failing my A-level.
You're joking yourself.
Yeah, I like that, it's good.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I like that.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Daniel, you mentioned bravery.
I mean, is there a certainlevel of courage that it takes
to actually play this game,because it sounds like it could
be quite revealing and you haveto be quite vulnerable, and I
know some people who aren'tprepared to go there in certain
instances.
So, yeah, what's required toactually play the game?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I mean, I think anyone can answer these
questions.
I don't personally think thatthey're that.
I spent a lot of time kind oftooling with them.
There's probably maybe only twoquestions in it that I would
say are vulnerable but worthexploring.
One is why do you think itmight be difficult to be in a
relationship or in a friendshipwith you?
(15:39):
That's an interesting question,but to me, if someone is not
thinking about that and doesn'thave any recollection of that,
that's a little bit of like ared flag.
It's okay to say like, oh, like, I'm good at this, but I
actually like, if I was toanswer that question, I would
say, oh, like I can get veryfocused on the creative and what
(16:01):
could be and distract myselffrom the present and like what
is?
It's very easy for me to bestuck in the future and
relationships require you to bein the present with someone and
be there with them, and that's ayeah, that's not the most.
I mean that's probably one ofthe toughest questions in the
deck and it's not too bad.
(16:22):
I mean most of them it's morejust about exploring your
thoughts and I'm trying to kindof evoke positive emotions.
Some of them are like what isyour favorite memory.
Or you know what's the kindestthing anyone's ever said to you,
Trying to kind of evoke apositive response as opposed to
like who hurt you.
I don't say that, that's not aquestion.
(16:44):
There's definitely a value tothat, but I don't want that
right away.
There's definitely a value tothat, but I don't want that
right away.
And I'm genuinely surprised.
Even with people who are morereserved, or once you get kind
of permission, psychologicalpermission to be yourself and be
honest, people tend to justopen up.
And the other cool thing is themechanics of the cards.
Let me explain this becauseit's a little confusing, I guess
(17:05):
.
So the cards there's like threedifferent types of cards.
It's a little confusing, Iguess.
So the cards there's like threedifferent types of cards and
they're all designed based offof that concept of like you're
not asking the question, thecard is asking the question.
So it's like you want to givethe person playing kind of that
understanding, just based off ofthe mechanics.
So the first card has a littlelike planchette, a little
pointer on it, and you spin thecard, just kind of like spin the
(17:28):
bottle, and whoever pointsclosest to they answer the
question.
If it points closest to you,you answer it.
So it's not really you askingit, the card's asking it.
In that case it's also very fun.
It evokes if you ever playedspin the bottle.
It's a cool, emotional, pivotalmoment.
So it's nice to kind of bringthat up in a way.
And then the next card hasthese like three little symbols
(17:50):
on it and you would choosesomebody, and I'll just actually
choose you.
Andrew, if I were to give youthese three words, which of
these words speaks to you themost?
Trap hunt or howl Hunt thosewords to you like hunt.
And so because you said hunt, Iwould ask you to tell a story.
Actually, by looking at me,what would you guess I want the
(18:10):
most in life and don't have yetwhy?
And so that would be thequestion I would ask you.
There's no wrong answer to that, but I'm actually trying to
kind of figure outpsychologically what your
impressions are of me just bylooking at me.
It's interesting.
People don't ask that, but it'slike people make judgments and
perceptions about each other allthe time and it'd be cool to
(18:32):
know what they are.
And then you just discard itand then the final one is the
toughest one, but I think it'sthe best.
I like it.
These questions are a littlemore vulnerable, but they're not
too bad.
I'm going to give this one toRich.
So you choose somebody and youask them the question at the top
Rich in one word or a shortphrase what is a lie that you
(18:56):
think other people choose tobelieve.
After you answer, pause.
Then tell us why, in one wordor a short phrase, a lie do you
think other people choose tobelieve?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
that the life is fair and there's justice in the
world wow, wow, wow, that, wow.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
You think a lot of people believe in that
equanimity and it's not there.
That's interesting.
So fairness in that sense, kindof that.
So because you said fairness,fairness starts with an F and I
would have to read and do anactivity for the group, but if
you would have chosen a wordthat started with these letters,
I would have put this back inthe box and the game comes with
(19:32):
25 fully illustrated activitieswith like step by step.
They're all kind of designed ina group dynamic to kind of
bring people closer.
I'm very, very proud of some ofthese.
Like one of them is so freakinggood, just like it's so good,
like it's honestly like I loveit.
I don't want to toot my ownhorn too much, but it's so good,
like it's it honestly, like Ilove it.
I don't want to toot my hearttoo much, but it's so good.
(19:53):
So, yeah, they're all designedto kind of allow you to be
present with those people or tokind of give to those people.
Just that one which is just asan example yeah, oh yeah, and
that one, I would have to dosomething okay, I'm interested
in the psychology of this.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So I know you said a lot of the time the questions
are designed to elicit apositive emotion, but actually
as well negative emotions canreally bring people together,
Negative experiences, like warveterans.
They say that I was closer tothe people in my unit than I was
with anyone else, with my wife,with my family.
Sebastian Jung has written thisamazing book called Tribe.
(20:34):
All about this.
Crossfit brings people togetherbecause people suffer together.
Grief brings people together.
Talking more about thepsychology, how did you come up
with these questions?
Was there the idea ofstruggling together to bring
people together?
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I mean, a lot of the questions are derived partially
from the books that they'reinspired by, and then the art as
well is inspired by that, andthe fortunes and stuff for each
one.
There's a hundred differentcards and a hundred different
books from people like EstherPerel, the Gottmans, carl Jung,
viktor Frankl all sorts of folksBooks that changed my life and
(21:11):
helped me kind of see anotherside to things, and a duality in
things.
That's something that happenswithin Truth or Fate.
That I guess.
Yeah, I'll say this, there's aduality in the cards.
Even though it's funny as a nameTruth or Fate kind of like
truth or dare it actually has adeeper meaning, because the game
was inspired by a quote by CarlJung that said until you make
(21:33):
the unconscious conscious, itwill direct your life and you
will call it fate.
And when I heard that quote itfelt like I was getting slapped
in the face by the universe andI thought, wow, that is
interesting.
So it's like, okay, truth, areyou willing to tell the truth
within the moment or are youpushing your life to fate?
Are you pushing it to theunconscious and say I'll handle
(21:56):
it?
And that's a tough question,it's not an easy one to answer.
I think there's a duality andeven in those vulnerable
questions, the darker questions,there's kind of a light.
You can see something positivein that and then even sometimes
in the purely sugar-coated happyquestions, there's a bit of a
darkness too.
To say, okay, what does thisperson value and has it
(22:18):
connected?
There was the 36 questions tofall in love that was developing
in mind.
The two sociologists I thinkcame out of like in the New York
Times and I think it was great.
But I think psychologicallythey made a huge misstep.
Because if I approached both ofyou and said, hey guys, let's
get together, let's ask eachother these questions to fall in
(22:40):
love, you'd be like what?
So?
Like what are you talking about?
Same with a lot of authenticrelating games.
If you're going going to playit with someone, the value
proposition of the game is notthere.
The difference within truth orfaith that makes interesting is
I can confidently say I can tellyour future and we will play
this game and it will tell youwhat your future is and give you
(23:03):
advice on how to make yourfuture better.
And I can 100 confidently saythat.
And that's where the game getscrazy.
It's like actually the cardsthat drop for people is wild.
I know the secrets but it'sstill amazing, even to me within
that.
But yeah, I hope that kind ofanswers your question.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, you mentioned truth-telling and making the
unconscious conscious.
So how does the game combinethat truth-telling with almost
an element of can we call itfortune telling?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
sure.
I mean the cards are dividedinto four different categories
for the fortune sides, and thatalso plays in the mechanics as
well.
Oh, that's a good one.
So there are truth cards, truthfortunes basically, which are
like kind of life advice thatyou would give pretty much to
anybody.
There are fate cards, which areall dedicated to unconscious
(23:56):
beliefs that could destroy you.
It even has there's a card foreach one of the four horsemen.
Are you familiar with that Fromthe apocalypse?
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, oh well, there's the apocalypse, but no,
I mean the four horsemen of theapocalypse.
Uh, no, I'm in the fourhorsemen of apocalypse, isn't
that?
Isn't that in the revelationsof the bible?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
yeah, pestilence and, uh, I don't know, famine, I
don't know.
There's a bunch of them.
The one I'm talking about isactually john and julie gottman
set up this uh apartment intheir organization and they
would film couples over thecourse of like 20 years and John
determined that there werethese four characteristics that
would destroy any relationshipif they were left unchecked.
(24:37):
And those are the four horsemenand I think people should know
what they are and why they're sodangerous.
And that's kind of theirunconscious kind of beliefs and
ideals in truth or faith.
And there's a card for everyone.
Then there's choice cards whichwill say that there's like a
choice coming up in your life soit will split what are the four
horsemen?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
yeah, asking for a friend.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah it's good you want to know.
Yeah, yeah, I'll.
The first one that I actuallypulled the card for was
defensiveness.
That's not me, no, I knew it.
How could it be?
That's one of my favorite jokesof a friend who says anytime
somebody says the word, he'lljust like scream.
That's not what gaslightingmeans.
(25:22):
I love that.
I think it's such a funny joke.
But the next one is contempt.
And then the third one I canfind all of them is stonewalling
and the final one is criticism.
Stonewalling, contempt,criticism and defensiveness, and
(25:44):
by understanding how you kindof fall into them and the truth
of the unconscious beliefs aboutthem and stuff, I think is the
way that you kind of overcomethem.
And they're dangerous, not justin intimate relationships,
they're dangerous to yourfriendships as well.
I would say.
But then yeah, big time.
Those are the four.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
The four big ones.
Okay, so moving on to tarot, asmy Spanish wife would call it.
I love that, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So what is tarot?
Well, tarot, funny enough,comes from Italian word tarosi,
which means foolishness.
It's a long, long history ofmagic through foolishness.
That's the actual origin oftarot.
That's why it's tarot but nottarot.
But I like when people saytarot, I think it's adorable.
But the idea behind it wasthere was originally you know,
(26:38):
the standard cards, diamonds,and there was originally like a
parlor set of cards that hadkings and queens or whatever,
and people developed this systemItalians that would say that
would kind of fortune tell basedoff of the sign of the card.
And then this was developedfurther by these people named
Rider Waite and I'll alwaysmention Coleman because I think
her art was amazingly importantto this as well and they
(27:01):
developed an entire occultarcana system to explain things.
But the idea behind it I wouldsay there are two sides.
Once again, there's a dualityto it.
As it is.
Actually, this is a good way toexplain the story.
Part of Truth or Fate came from.
I love planning experiences andstuff for people and I started
(27:23):
by planning dates, actuallyplanned and made a date for
someone, and after I plannedthat first date, I was like
something magical happened here.
This was, and it was me and itwas them, but it was something
else.
It was like a mini golf dateand I planned like made a card
game to accompany mini golf.
So if we like, if somebody likewon the hole, they would get a
(27:44):
question.
And then afterwards we went todinner and then the only way you
could ask the question back isif you answered like a dare.
So I had like two decks.
It was kind of very simplemechanics, but that night was
like the person was like I feltamazing, that was awesome, thank
you.
And I was like wow, this isinteresting.
I'm going to keep doing this.
I'm learning from it and I did.
And one of the dates I plannedwas an arrow archery date, where
(28:08):
I made these like targets andwherever the arrow I like do
archery on the side.
So wherever the arrow landed,we would go and do that activity
.
Like I made special targets.
So it's like the arrow was kindof like a fate date, a date
decided by fate, and one of thearrows landed.
I'm going to go see a fortuneteller together.
I'd never done that before.
This was like five years agonow.
So it was like five years agonow.
(28:30):
So it was like okay, cool, Iwas like I'd heard it was
recommended to go with a date toa fortune teller.
This would be great.
So we did this like cute little, like yellow house in Campbell
California.
We live in South Bay Well,maybe she's still there, I don't
know.
She had a huge impact on my lifefrom this and so I like sat
down and I'm like pretty awareof improv and cold reading
decent at it.
(28:50):
So I'm like I'm gonna get coldread.
This will be cool.
And this person's gonna likesee that I'm on a date.
They're gonna alley, oop, helpme out, uh.
And she's like are you sure youwant me to read your guys's
futures?
So I was like, yeah, sure we'retogether.
And she's like, okay, and so wesit down and she turns over a
couple of cards.
She looks at me and says youput more effort into
(29:12):
relationships than anyone you'veever met before.
Until you meet someone who putsin the same amount of effort,
you're not going to be in lovewith them, you're not in love
with her and you never will be.
Wow, absolutely destroyed thedate.
This was third date.
I've had a lot of goodwill, butjust absolutely killed that
(29:32):
date.
Like I mean, it was like theentire mood, energy, everything
changed and it was we kind ofleft in the wake of it.
She also said some very kind ofpersonal and pretty accurate
things about a date and I waskind of like just bewildered by
it, although I understood it andpart of like my way of
understanding it was developingtruth or fate.
(29:55):
So it was like what happenswithin tarot card reading is
somebody reads cards for you.
You believe that what they aresaying is true and then it comes
true and then it comes true andthat, if you understand the
mechanics of that, people putway too much emphasis on that
someone's reading your truth.
They should put more emphasison that.
(30:15):
You believe what they're sayingis true and how it changes your
life.
That's where all the magichappens within tarot.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
So so is that like law of attraction.
Then is that what's at work?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
there kind of it's a little bit of both.
There's once again psychologyand magic together.
There's this effect inpsychology called the barnum for
effect we were.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What is that from barnum and barnum statements and
the circus.
You know, it was the film.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Yeah, yeah for sure, every person's a sucker, but it
actually.
The four part is moreinteresting to me and it's also
kind of sad and so I like it asa story.
So Forer was a psychologist andat the end of one of his
semesters he's a professor hesaid I've been analyzing my
entire class this entiresemester.
I'm going to hand you all apiece of paper based off of my
(31:05):
analyzations and I'll tell youlike you tell me how accurately
I analyzed you.
So he handed out a piece ofpaper.
Everyone was like, oh my gosh,I think he averaged like a 97%.
It was in the 90s, very high.
The people were like, wow,you're like the real deal.
The thing is he wrote the exactsame thing on everybody's piece
of paper.
(31:33):
And there is a reality, aprofile in that enforcer's
profile that everybody adheresto.
And if you can vaguely kind ofspeak confidently within that
profile, it will apply to anyone.
And also our brains,psychologically, are primed to
want to align.
When somebody tells ussomething about ourselves, we
want to believe that it's true.
I mean even just law ofattraction, aside from a perfect
perspective.
If I tell you today, blue cars,blue cars, blue cars, you will
(31:56):
see blue cars.
You always saw them before, butyou didn't notice them.
You're just priming your mindto kind of look for that truth
and to follow that pathway, andthat's really where,
psychologically, the magic comesfrom.
But there are some weird thingstoo when you get into this
community and the way thatpeople have, like, dedicated
their lives to it, and I've metpeople who run giant companies
(32:18):
who run their decisions basedoff of tarot cards, which is
wild, but it's interesting inthat regard.
So I don't know if I'm takingthat as well.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah Well, some people are going to think this
is Tarot's a hoax.
I recently watched got intoPeaky Blinders in there in one
episode Not a spoiler alert butone of the ladies goes to a
fortune teller and she tells herthis thing and then she really
believes it and she's cryingbecause there's terrible things
happened.
And then this other gypsy agypsy family, another gypsy
(32:49):
comes and tells them did you goto see that fortune teller?
Oh yeah, everyone knows aboutit, because what they do is they
find out what you alreadybelieve and then just confirm it
.
So it is like it is a trick,it's not magic and things like
that.
So how do you defend tarotagainst people who would accuse
it of being a hoax?
Speaker 3 (33:06):
I, people who would accuse it of being a hoax.
I think the thing that's toughis that there are two sides to
everything.
I like when people discuss bothsides.
I find that interesting.
So on the one side, absolutelyYou're putting people in a very
vulnerable situation because Iknow psychologically both of you
are primed right now that if Ispoke confidently about your
(33:26):
futures, you would, even if youdidn't want to, subconsciously
you'd probably partially believeme, especially based off of
even if I had like a perfunctorySherlock Holmes level.
You know, if I had like a lowskill and I could kind of put it
together, you would want tobelieve it.
And it's also an interesting,it's a very satisfying thing to
be analyzed in that way.
On the other side of it, I thinkthere's nothing more dangerous
(33:50):
to people than the things thatthey leave unsaid and having
somebody in your life that youcan talk to openly and honestly
whether that be a therapist, Ithink, who's better trained for
it or in a lot of cases, that'swhat these tarot readers become.
Is they become this sort ofthing for people to talk about
their future and hopes for thefuture and other stuff like that
(34:11):
.
Now, is that right or wrong?
Especially if you're likemanipulating them and say, oh,
you need to come back to me.
I don't like that, but I dolike the idea of people being
honest and thinking about thedecisions that they have to make
in the future and future tothemselves.
I think there are therapistswho are manipulative and we're
like, well, you need to comeback to me.
(34:31):
I think that's something my dadlikes to say.
Is what do you call the guythat graduated bottom of this
medical class?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah, my doctor, Dr Blake.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
So I think I mean I'm a believer in the five
agreements probably soon to besix when they discover new ones
but one of them is to listen butbe skeptical, and I think that
that's a valuable thing to do isto say, oh wow, like there is
good in this, there is bad inthis, and I would say that
that's true of a lot of things.
The thing that I will say thatI've been Absolutely surprised
(35:09):
and delighted by is the tarotcommunity has been incredibly
welcoming and inviting to me,and I haven't gotten any of the
gatekeeping or any of the stuffthat I really did expect to see.
People are incrediblyenthusiastic and are, like, very
excited about the deck that arein the space, and I'm very
(35:29):
honored and actually very happyabout that.
It's very, very, very cool.
It's nice to feel that wayinstead of feeling like, oh,
like I made a deck too, and Idon't want people to be mad at
me for that.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
So I don't know if that answers question overall
yeah, well, I have done quite abit of sort of you know, not
necessarily, not necessarilytarot, but you know, psi ability
type thing.
I did like an eight weekprogram at the Royal Institute
not of chartered surveyors, Idid do that separately the Royal
Society for like psychicability it was founded by Sir
(36:03):
Arthur Conan Doyle who wrote youknow, my wife's done quite a
lot of that stuff.
She's in like a mediumshipgroup, or she was when she was
in London, and she often doesreadings for our friends and
family.
Wow, I'm still on the fence,though.
I'm not sure whether or not itis just people being very
(36:25):
skilled at reading someone andtelling them what they want to
hear, or if there's actuallysome kind of magic, psychic
ability.
And I've read a lot of work by.
I've forgotten all the books'names, but I've read a lot of
books on this stuff and I'mstill not convinced.
So are you convinced thatthere's something magical
happening and that some peoplehave magical abilities?
Speaker 3 (36:47):
I can't definitively say.
I don't really fully know.
I understand the value of likehaving a firm belief and like
standing up for a belief andthings like that.
When someone says, oh, there'sno, I would say I'm more
agnostic than anything.
When someone says there's nofricking way or whatever, it's
like actually there absolutelyis a possibility of it, does it
(37:09):
mean that I'm going to likechange my life completely for it
or like not, you know, listenand still be skeptical?
No, but I do think diminishingthe power of belief in that
regard would be a mistake.
I mean, a placebo effect isinsane, something just based off
of belief that is studyableagain and again and again and
(37:32):
it's accepted as fact and yetpeople think about it in medical
terms it's like, well, it couldcompletely apply to your life
and the way that you addressthings.
And that alone my partner wentthrough like a side K experience
, like a course work with theclass, which is like kind of
modifying psychologically yourdeep beliefs and trying to kind
(37:54):
of reprogram the way you thinkand believe on a deep level.
And I find it to be yourbeliefs kind of form, your
thoughts, which form youractions, which then form your
beliefs again, and it's thislittle sort of cycle and so I
don't want to diminish thatrelationship and the power of
that, because I have experiencedsome weird things with belief
(38:16):
as well, things when I'm likeI've read Power of the
Subconscious Mind by JosephMurphy, interesting to me,
entire Joe Dispenza's work andthere's other.
There's just stuff that is justit's strange and you could
obviously there's everyoneshould do work within
correlation versus causation aswell, a grain of salt.
(38:37):
But at the same time I thinkit's interesting.
I think that it seems like themore we know, the more there's a
lot of space within the unknownand I don't want to
definitively say, oh, it'sbullshit, I don't believe any of
it, because it's like I don'tknow, it's a strange thing to
see, oh, it's bullshit, I don'tbelieve any of it, because it's
like I don't know it's a strangething to see so as rich was
asking that answer.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
But no, no, I was thinking.
As rich was asking thatquestion, I was reminded of one
of the many retreats that hesent me on.
Rich sent me on this one thingcalled the path of love and it's
been meticulously put togetherand honed in.
There's a lot of psychologicalresearch that sits behind it.
Parallels to your game in somuch as you put so much you said
like 100 psychology books, somuch has gone into it and yet
(39:18):
there's still that level.
Even the organizers of path oflove don't understand.
They say it brings out somesort of magic they have no
answers to.
And in the same way you saidthere were those moments in your
games and maybe when you gotthose actors in to launch the
game, you just thought what ishappening here?
So is that what we're talkingabout here?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
yeah, I've been very fortunate and lucky enough to
have lived like 37.
But I've had a lot of differentexperiences and stuff and it
was in the bay area as a motiondesigner and event designer and
other stuff and then moved overhere and with part of a bunch of
like artistic miscreants andthings like that out there.
But you'd come across stuff andone time I was giving a friend
(39:57):
a ride to like a christmas partyin the bay and he was like you
should go to this workshop.
I just think you should go.
And I was like getting cultyvibes from what you're saying.
But I was like I'm gonna go,I'm gonna say yes and see what
it was.
And the group was the HumanAwareness Institute out in.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Northern Ireland.
Oh yeah, I went to a tastersession of those in the UK Big
culty vibes.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, my experience of that workshop I was very
impressed with the way that theylaid it out and there was a
sense of magic over that weekend.
It's literally just peopletalking to each other and
connecting on a very deep leveland it's just people are just
starving for it.
It's sad, but it's just thatpeople are really starving for
(40:47):
it.
And, like I said, that quotewas something I thought of while
I was there that it's verydangerous to you to leave things
unsaid and so like havingsomeone in your life that you
can talk to and you trustwhether it be friends,
therapists, your family orsomething I think is a really
important thing.
And if that's a tarot person aswell, I would just hope that
(41:07):
that person was kind enough tolisten and also be kind and not
manipulate them.
But I have seen both wayswithin that.
But, yeah, I would recommendHuman Awareness Institute.
By the way, I was a littleafraid of that as well.
I was like I'm going to be ontheir mailing list and they're
going to tell me to wear whitelinens and leave my family
behind, and I was like I've beenaround folks like that before
(41:31):
but didn't seem that way, atleast at the workshop and stuff.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
I was very impressed with it and it was a great
experience for me, okay yeah, no, I just went to like afternoon
in london and we just I don'tknow, maybe it's just the people
there were.
Just you know, you don't haveto like everyone, so maybe we
just had a bad group.
So, andy, I won't be sendingyou on that one, so you're
welcome.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
How did that go?
And that was the other-.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
Yeah, it was really good yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, path of Love.
Yeah, that's in Boulder.
Well ahead of it is in Boulder.
I just had lunch with him theother week.
I would definitely recommendPath of Love, yeah, but I just
want to pick up on the pointwhere you say people are
starving for connection.
That's definitely true.
A lot of people are.
However, I do have some friendswho are not starving for
connection and they don't seethe value of friendship and
(42:17):
relationship.
I know one of them will belistening to this and I'm always
trying to tell him you shouldhave some more friends.
He's got three kids and a wifeand he's got a very happy family
and he loves his routines andhe's very healthy and he does
his ice baths and triathlonfamily and he loves his routines
and he's very healthy and hedoes his ice baths and triathlon
.
Also, he lives abroad, he livesin China, and he doesn't have
the same camaraderie as he wouldwith his school friends.
(42:39):
So why do you think peopleshould have relationships?
Because I'm always strugglingto say, like you should have
more friends, and he's just likewhy Are they annoying me?
Like it's really hard toorganize things with them?
I'm much better when I'm justin charge with my family and
they provide social connection.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I don't need any for it I love the quote from uh
james clear that you won't riseto the level of your goals,
ambitions or dreams, but you'llfall to the level of your
systems.
So he's created a social systemwithin there, within his family
, and that's like providing himwith that emotional connection.
So far, however, if thatfalters, if that's your single
(43:14):
source of emotional connection,and it absolutely can, or like
you might, do somethingdestructive or be unaware that
you're doing somethingdestructive within those,
without context of other peopleand exposure to other
relationships, friendships andthings like that, and as you get
older, it's just there'snothing, I know.
It's sort of like oh my gosh,the effort, the effort to,
(43:35):
especially in today's day andage, the flakiness is unreal,
unbelievable, but it is part oftruth, or faith's understanding
is that giving is not reallygiving.
It's like you will receive.
You just have to kind of keepreally giving.
It's like you will receive.
You just have to kind of keepbelieving and giving to those
(43:56):
relationships from a place ofkindness and be realistic,
listen, but be skeptical and say, okay, like is this person just
using me in this case?
And should I like, do I?
I should talk to them aboutthat if I'm feeling this way.
But on the other side of things, your friendships will open up
entire gateways like lives thatyou just never would have
(44:16):
imagined.
Friends I met, I got into eventplanning because of a friend of
a friend, and then my entirecareer, any of my wealth and
stuff came from just chasingthat down.
I would consider myself heavilyintroverted, but I can't deny
the positive, gigantic effectthat other people have had on my
life, and I mean as much ashe's had probably gigantic
(44:39):
negative effects from somepeople.
I would bet if you talk to himthere was probably some people,
including yourself, that havehad a grand effect and it's like
well, why wouldn't you wantmore of that and more of a
perspective?
Relationships become thesemirrors to us that we can't see
things about ourselves thatother people can clearly see.
(45:00):
There's a comedian and a writerthat I follow named Dan Harmon,
and he has a friend, an amazingwriter, creator friend, named
Rob Schrapp, who did thisawesome graphic novel and they
went to this acting classtogether one day and I thought
this was brilliant.
The premise of the acting classwas that you get typecasted as
a certain role and you shouldn'ttry to fight against that.
You should try to figure outwhat that role is and then lead
(45:21):
into it, which is very smart Ifyou think about it.
People are trying to do it andso he said what they did was you
would walk into a room andpeople tell you their first
impressions of you.
And he said you know, they'rein like tiny little groups.
And his friend Rob he heard himin another room saying I'm not
C-3PO.
I was like very mad about it,but that's exactly what C-3PO
(45:44):
would say and I thought that wasso funny and interesting that
it's like, oh, like you.
The value you get from seeingyourself from other people's
eyes is insane.
I used to hate criticism.
I love criticism.
The best possible things comefrom like why did Rich feel this
way about me?
Why did Andrew think this?
(46:05):
What was that about?
And instead of just being like,ah, he's a dick or whatever, to
truly understand that, you willfind gold, like absolute gold,
the people that have chased that.
They've made entire careers forbetter or for worse, and I
think it's a wonderful thing andthat's only established through
people.
So, from an economicalstandpoint, from a social
(46:27):
standpoint and also medicalstandpoint, there's I'm sure
there's tons of documentationabout how your relationships
extend your life and they'reimportant to your ecosystem.
Personally, people are goodpeople are good.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Hell is other people, according to john yeah, that's
one funny.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Yeah, I'd say like both.
I think there's just a value induality and looking at both
sides of it, because certainlythere are.
It's uh, I remember who saidthat originally, but it's like
you feed the wolf, like you havetwo wolves inside you and you
you feed the one that helps you.
I like that idea is that you'relike, okay, like I can
(47:13):
absolutely look at this bothways and I'm comfortable looking
at this both ways, but I haveto kind of see it.
See, there are human atrocitiesthat are insane and people are
capable of absolutely terrible,horrible things, but they're
also capable of wonderful thingsand your life and the life's
further.
So it's like, what would youlike like to do?
(47:34):
Would you like to live in thatworld or would you like to try
to support and encourage thepositive wolf?
I guess in my mind it's hard tosay, hard to do, but yeah, I
like sartre too.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
So yeah, the two wolves.
I think it's a native americanparable.
I've got it here.
Actually, just chat gbt.
I'm going to read it, sorry.
A grandfather tells hisgrandson about a battle between
two wolves inside everyone.
One wolf represents evil,including anger, envy and greed.
The other wolf represents good,including joy, peace, love and
(48:05):
hope.
The grandson asks which wolfwins?
The grandfather replies the oneyou feed.
So there you go, that's storytime very good.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Yeah, it's good I like I mean I really can say one
of the books that's recommendedin truth or fate is by brown
o'weiss.
It's called 101 essays.
To change the way you thinkthat's a phenomenal book.
She just kind of lists it outand some of them are gut punches
.
One of them that was reallyvaluable to me is she said okay,
I want you to like write outthe things, the behaviors,
(48:37):
beliefs, the things that you seeon the people that you hate or
dislike, and really spend timeto do it.
And then you guys almost allknow this, you can sense it.
She's like okay, how are thesemirrors and things that you see
in yourself?
Yeah, and you're like, ugh, andthat is a very valuable.
(48:59):
I mean, that's a very.
When I feel those negativethings greed, envy, jealousy,
anger instead of viewing them aslike negative things, I kind of
view them as indicators of likewhat do I need to sort of see
in myself that's happening hereand what can I kind of learn
from that?
And the same I would say on theother side of it.
I've just been reading this bookcalled like I think it's called
(49:21):
hacking american minds,basically talking about how, as
a society, we've kind of lostthe connection between pleasure
and happiness like that.
There's a big separationbetween those two and I don't
think maliciously, but I thinkjust because it worked.
We developed as a society waysof getting people to buy more,
(49:43):
consumerism and also to sellingto individuals as opposed to
selling to groups.
Because if you think about itfrom a business standpoint, that
makes more sense sell to theindividual, you make more money,
but that diminishes the powerof groups and the power of
communities, and people sense it.
You can just tell when they'rein a communal thing they're like
oh my god, why can't lifealways be this way?
(50:04):
And it the truth is it, can youjust have to kind of believe in
it and support it that way, sokind of police it in your
yourself and then and otherpeople, I guess yeah, all right
I can say it's clear yourinterests extend far beyond
truth or fate, although it'sawesome that you're launching
(50:25):
that soon.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
So can you tell us a little bit more about your kind
of your future, what you'reworking on next?
Speaker 3 (50:31):
yeah, I mean truth or fate.
It's already out, it's instores and you can buy it on
truth or fatecom if you want.
I'm doing everything myself, soso it'll be me shipping it to
you.
But yeah, it's been really cool.
It's gone over all over theworld and people have great
feedback.
I want to.
I'm in the process of creating afollow-up game based on the
(50:52):
things that I've learned.
That acts as an expansion to it, but also there's a standalone
game very exciting.
I'm not going to talk too muchmore about it, but I'm going to
try to get a kickstarter out bythis year I think by the end of
this year for that one and Ithink it's very cool, it's
tested really well and, uh, Ilike it a lot.
Once again, learn from yourcriticisms, don't be mad about
(51:13):
them.
Truth or fates All of its goodthings came from criticisms.
I also have other games thatI'm designing and working on
more med spaces.
I work with Spectra Artspace inDenver.
They do little art spaces intheir back of house house and
then they sell artist merch inthe front, and I think there's a
(51:34):
lot more potential withinimmersive art experiences, and I
like making board and cardgames.
I have other games that I'm indevelopment for that have
nothing to do with tarot but aremore developed to try to create
positive social experienceswith friends and loved ones and
stuff like that.
Create positive socialexperiences with friends and
loved ones and stuff like that.
I think there's a lot of spacewithin authentic relating games
(51:56):
for improvement with gamemechanics and stuff like that.
Yeah, that's pretty much most ofit.
Yeah, and how do people findyou?
I run all the Truth or Fatestuff truthorfatecom, truth or
Fate on Instagram, tiktok, whileit's still around.
I need to put more content tothat.
I'm a pretty busy person.
(52:16):
I also animate under the nameshiny and shiny posts, so I'm a
professional animator andillustrator designer.
And then, yeah, we'll be havinga lodge party for truth or fate
in Denver within the nextcouple of months.
That'll be really fun.
I'll be designing all the nextcouple months.
That'll be really fun.
I'll be designing all theexperiences there and that'll be
cool.
But, yeah, you can reach me atany of those things.
(52:37):
It's all me clicking away.
Speaker 2 (52:40):
So awesome, fantastic .
Well, best of luck with all ofit.
I'll um be following closelyand, um, yeah, thanks so much
for giving your time.
It's it's a fascinating conceptand nothing out nothing else
like it out there, so, yeah, I'msure it'll do well.
Welcome back, listener.
Hope you enjoyed thatconversation as much as I did.
Um rich.
(53:00):
What do we learn?
Speaker 1 (53:02):
I learn a lot.
I learned that relationshipsmatter and friends are good and
we need more friends becausewe'll be happier, healthier.
Uh, I learned about the fourhorsemen.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
I was gonna say I did love that bit, I know I was
like there's a tick box,exercise in what rich does in
his relationship.
The four horsemen, yeah, um,yeah, that was so he wasn't
gonna go there and then suddenlyyou're just like um, what are
the four horsemen?
Um, that really interesting.
Yeah, I love the um.
(53:36):
I love when he described the uhmoment with the actors when
they kind of didn't want tobreak from the game because it
was just so um, I guess, someaningful.
So makes me really want to playit.
Maybe you and I should play itone time, mitch, yeah we should,
yes, we should.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
When next time we're in person, maybe I'll buy Dan's
game and we'll get even closerand get into that in some regard
, I can leave it there.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, okay, okay, it made you awkward enough.
Yeah, yeah, but it's also verycompelling.
You know, you think if he putsthat much effort and um thought
into that kind of game and ithas that kind of impact, you
know where, where is he going togo next?
Because he's obviously someonewho's got such varied interests
and such a wealth of knowledge.
(54:23):
So I'm intrigued.
He's only he said he's 37, solots more to come.
Very young, I turned 37 yeah,exactly I've got a vested
interest in thinking thatobviously so have you.
But uh, no, it's a very cooldude and, um, yeah, he's, uh,
he's in colorado.
So I guess, if any of ourlisteners uh want to check out
those spaces that he mentioned,uh make sure you do that yeah,
(54:47):
absolutely all right.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Well, thank listener Andy.
Where do they find us?
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Oh, great question.
Laughing through the pain andnavigating wellness on all good
and bad podcasting sites.
Rich is at the Breath Geek onInstagram, I am at Andy Esam and
Rich has got a website which isrichardlblakecom.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
And thebreathgeekcom.
Yeah, you nailed it.
They're both right, I'm justkidding.
Okay, Just running.
And how could the listener helpus if they liked our show?
Andy?
Speaker 2 (55:20):
Leave a review, ideally with five stars or the
equivalent, on whateverpodcasting thing you're looking
for, and leave some words aswell.
Words are always helpful and,as we just learned from Daniel,
we learned from criticism aswell, so if you've got any
comments, send them our way.
Don't be afraid Pull us up onanything.
Ideally not in the review.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah, I am very sensitive to criticism, so if
you do criticize me, expect tobe criticized back.
Speaker 2 (55:46):
Yeah, Criticize Richard through me and I will
filter it in a way that I thinkhe can understand.
Thanks so much for listening,always looking to improve and
hopefully shining some light onsome great people.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
Yeah, all right, thanks listener, thanks Andy,
and thanks Dan, see ya, bye-bye.
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