Unapologetically Masculine: Navigating Challenges and Brotherhood with Craig Barlow

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Dr Richard L Blake.
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you, andy?
Not bad thanks very much.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
yeah, we're good.
I'm looking forward to theepisode where we talk to, let's
be honest, a proper man's man.
A man, yeah, are we men's men?

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Yeah, no, I don't know.
I don't know.
That's a tough question.
I think maybe we need to.
I feel like I'm a man.
I even have a man bun, rightthat's a manly thing.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Can you say so so?

Speaker 1 (00:31):
we're speaking to Craig Barlow.
And you have highlights that'sa manly thing.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I did bleach my hair, yeah, can't deny it.
Craig Barlow, who does Wild manChallenge as well as other
awesome men's groups, and hiswhole thing is about challenging
yourself as a man, and we talkabout that and it's amazing
really, isn't it?
Because it kind of.
He mentioned Goggins.

(00:57):
That's where my brain went tostraight away when we were
researching it, in terms of justreally challenging yourself,
pushing yourself out of justreally challenging yourself,
pushing yourself out of comfortzone, pushing yourself to
failure.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
Easily said, not so easily done absolutely yeah, and
I think some of the things hesays are going to challenge some
people.
People might find that theydisagree with that kind of stuff
, and I think Craig would befine with you disagreeing with
anything he says, um, but uh, Ithink, yeah, it's a really

(01:31):
useful perspective.
What he's doing seems to bereally working and I think some
people need to hear this andsome people may need to filter
out some of the stuff he says aswell yeah I talk a lot about
filtering out opinions thataren't necessarily for you,
because you are so manydifferent types of people in the
world and some people maybethey need to hear this and some

(01:51):
people they don't.
They should avoid this anddisregard it.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Or just listen to someone who has different
opinions to yourself.
You'll be fine at the end of it, without trying to silence.
and make people and make I alsothink it comes across genuine
because the stakes are so high,because he mentioned that he
struggled when he wasn't livinglike he is and he didn't stay
true to his philosophy.

(02:16):
So he's not going to compromiseon that because the stakes are
too high.
He doesn't want to fall backinto struggling, he wants to
live his best life and that'show he thinks he has to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
So good on him, I say yeah, and I think there'll be a
lot of what aboutery.
Have you had that term before?
Yes barry glendening, whataboutery?
So he's giving his perspective,what's worked for him, the
challenges he's faced, andthere'll be a lot of people who
say, well, what about this?
What about this type of man?
What about this type of person?
What about this?
And maybe other people needdifferent things, different

(02:49):
drinks for different needs, as II am david brent always say um,
but I think it's yeah.
I feel like this message needsto to be in the ears of some
people and uh hopefully that'syou, hopefully you're, the less
you listener need to hear thisand it's gonna help you in some
way and at the very least he'san interesting man.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
He's had a interesting life, so hopefully
there's something in there foreveryone enjoy listener.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Do you love what you're hearing?
If so, drop us a like, shareyour favorite episode with
friends and help us grow byleaving a review wherever you
get your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going.
So tune in, follow, like andreview today.
Craig, welcome to the podcast.

(03:44):
Can you tell us what it meansto be unapologetically masculine
?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
um, straight in there .
Uh, I I honestly think thatlooks different to, obviously,
the individual, but for me, Ithink the way I look at it is
coming from my background.
I've been in the navy for 13years.
It's a very colorful environmentto, in a sense, grow up in
because I was in fm16.
So it's very, very unfiltered,very unapologetic, very non-pc,

(04:16):
and I really, really lovefeeling that environment.
It was so much fun, almost in asense like a bit of freedom to
just fully be yourself, becauseeveryone's a little bit crazy.
And then, coming out of thatenvironment, you realize that
that's actually not the norm in,let's call it, the normal world
, and so for me it is, yes, inthat kind of buzzword of
authenticity, but for me a lotof it's unapologetic, is one of

(04:43):
the things in terms ofmasculinity, like being
disagreeable, not on purpose,but not just being overly
agreeable and overly peoplepleasing speak in your mind
being clear and direct, whichsounds very simple, but from
what I find is, a lot of peopleare not clear and direct and a
lot of people take offense and alittle bit sensitive.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
So they're some of the main things that I see from
my personal opinion, without andso, like by you saying that are
you, do you think that we'vehad to be to apologize as being
men more recently in terms of,like what we're seeing in the
media and the patriarchy andstuff, are you finding it it's
harder to be a man perhaps?

Speaker 3 (05:24):
um, I I don't, personally I don't think it's
harder it's depending on whatyou're looking at to determine,
like what you should be or whoyou should be as a man, like how
you should express that, what'sokay, what's not okay, what's
good, what's bad, and like.
There's a lot of bullshit outthere and and if you listen to

(05:45):
it, then in a sense you aregoing to suppress a lot of
yourself as a man, a lot of yourkind of masculinity.
I think that actually comesfrom a um, a lack of of
self-assuredness, because if youare very self-assured and
comfortable with yourself, thenyou wouldn't really be overly
concerned by that so much whatkind of bullshit are you seeing

(06:07):
out there see?
kind of a lot of approachestowards men is like it's
approaches that are generic,like self-development, that are,
I think, a bit more feminine,and not to say that they're all
wrong.
It's like some of them work anddepending on who you are, but
there's a big missing partthat's specific for men.

(06:28):
That gets missed, and I tend toget a lot of backlash for that,
which I'm okay with.
I don't mind that.
Again, coming from the military, weirdly, I kind of enjoy it.
I love language, but yeah,there's a lot of these
approaches, even things aroundmen being more emotional.
Is this like that gets skewedas well, as it's like is it

(06:49):
being more emotional or is itbeing more emotionally aware,
being able to self-regulate youremotions, being able to control
your emotions, being able toactually talk about how you feel
without kind of being chaoticand being a mess, and there's
some of these things where Ithink the intention is is there,

(07:12):
but I just think it's justthrown in the bucket with normal
self-development and like godyou know, men and women are,
they're just the same, theycan't need the same things, and
I really think that's one of thebiggest problems so just to be
clear there.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
So you're're saying that men should have emotions
and they should express them.
They should just not do it inlike a chaotic way, lose control
.
Can you tell us more about thesort of the ideal of how a man
should deal with his emotions?

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Well, again, from my perspective is like, of course
is like we're human as well,right, but it's like we deal
with emotions differently thanwomen do.
For example, a lot of women willsit and they'll talk about
their emotions all the time withtheir girlfriends and feelings
and emotions all the time withtheir girlfriends, and men don't
do that so much and it can bereally hard for men to really go

(08:04):
into that by you know, sit withyour guy friends drinking wine
and eating ice cream and talkingabout your feelings and
emotions.
It's not common, but like, forexample, I do a lot of adventure
based and nature based workwith guys.
It's like you take a bunch ofguys on a hike or on an
adventure and do some cool shitand some challenges and pat kind
of like automatically from thatis you're gonna, you're gonna

(08:27):
talk about things, like thingsare gonna come up, you're gonna
open up a little bit more, butwithout trying or without being
forced.
It's like this the differencebetween, like you know, women
are more eye to eye like I fixed, kind of talking conversations
about feelings and emotions, andmen are more kind of shoulder
to shoulder kind of doingsomething.
It's like like the action first, chat later.

(08:47):
Philosophy is like we go dosome shit and then we talk
during or after.
It's like it comes through thekind of the action of doing,
rather than just sitting like ina therapy chair staring at
somebody, someone looking backat you and then going okay, talk
about your feelings andemotions yeah, I think that's
supported by, as we mentioned, aprevious episode with ryan park

(09:09):
and his talk about testosterone.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
His prescription for men is just get your
testosterone up and then you canmaybe talk about your emotions.
So, doing some adventure, doingsome exercise, doing, you know,
driving a fast car, choppingwood, whatever it is is, uh is
what he's prescribed for people.
So, yeah, it sounds like you'reon the same page there.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, and I honestly think that's why I think men
struggle so much because theythink something's wrong with
them if they can't.
And sit, and again you get alot of women that are looking at
men through their women'sbrains and being like, well, do
what we do, you know, sit andtalk about your feelings and
your emotions, like with us allthe time.
It's like it's easy, but it's.
I don't think it's the umpredominant way for men to

(09:55):
actually work through emotionsand I think that's why a lot of
guys find it extra difficult,because it's almost like they
don't know really how to do thatbecause it's never been taught
it really.
So it's like, okay, fit intothis bracket and then wonder why
it still feels so hard.
But you actually give you putguys into an environment that's
more suited for men in the waythat Dr Richard L Blake how are

(10:18):
you?

Speaker 1 (10:19):
I'm good, how are you Andy?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Not bad.
Thanks very much.
Yeah, all good.
I'm looking forward to theepisode where we talk to, let's
be honest, a proper man's man.
A man, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Are we man's men?
Yeah, no.
I don't know, I don't know.
That's a tough question.
I think maybe we need to.
I feel like I'm a man.
I even have a man bun right.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
That's a yeah, it's a manly thing you say, so we're
speaking to craig and you havehighlights.
That's a manly thing I didchange my hair, yeah, I can't
deny it.
Um, craig barlow, who does awild man challenge, as well as
other awesome men's groups, andhis whole thing is about
challenging yourself as a man,and we talk about that and it's

(11:10):
amazing, really, isn't it?
Because he mentioned Goggins.
That's where my brain went tostraight away when we were
researching it, in terms of justreally challenging yourself,
pushing yourself out of yourcomfort zone, pushing yourself
to failure.
Easily said not, so easily done.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
absolutely yeah, and I think some of the things he
says are going to challenge somepeople.
People might find that, uh,they disagree with that kind of
stuff, and I think craig wouldbe fine with you disagreeing
with anything he says, but Ithink, yeah, it's a really
useful perspective.
What he's doing seems to bereally working and I think some

(11:52):
people need to hear this andsome people may need to filter
out some of the stuff he says aswell.
You talk a lot about filteringout opinions that aren't
necessarily for you, because youknow there are so different, uh
, types of people in the worldand some people maybe they need
to hear this and some peoplethey, they don't.
You know they should.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
they should avoid this and disregard it or just
listen to someone who hasdifferent opinions to yourself,
you'll be fine at the end of it.
Um, without trying to silenceand make, I also think it comes
across genuine because thestakes are so high, because he
mentioned that he struggled whenhe wasn't living like he is and

(12:31):
he didn't stay true to hisphilosophy.
So he's not going to compromiseon that because the stakes are
too high.
He doesn't want to fall backinto struggling.
He wants to live his best lifeand that's how he thinks he has
to do it.
So good on him, I say.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, and I think there'll be.
Live his best life and that'show he thinks he has to do it.
So good on him.
I say yeah, and I thinkthere'll be a lot of what
aboutery.
Have you had that term before?
yes, barry glendening, whataboutery?
So he's giving his perspective,what's worked for him, the
challenges he's faced, andthere'll be a lot of people who
say, well, what about this?
What about this type of man?
What about this type of person?
What about this?
And maybe other people needdifferent things, different

(13:06):
drinks for different needs, as Iand David Brent always say.
But I think it's yeah, I feellike this message needs to be in
the ears of some people.
And hopefully that's you,hopefully you listener need to
hear this and it's going to helpyou in some way.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
And at the very least he's an interesting man who's
had an interesting life, sohopefully there's something in
there for everyone Enjoy.
There we go All right.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Listener.
Do you love what you're hearing?
If so, drop us a like, Shareyour favorite episode with
friends and help us grow byleaving a review wherever you
get your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going.
So tune in, follow, like andreview today.
Craig, welcome to the podcast.

(14:01):
Can you tell us what it meansto be unapologetically masculine
?

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Straight in there.
I honestly think that looksdifferent to, obviously, the
individual, but for me, I thinkthe way I look at it is coming
from my background.
I've been in the Navy for 13years.
It's a very colourfulenvironment to in a sense, grow
up in because I was in fm16.
So it's very, very unfiltered,very unapologetic, very non-pc,

(14:32):
and I really, really lovefeeling that environment.
It was so much fun, almost in asense like a bit of freedom to
just fully be yourself, becauseeveryone's a little bit crazy.
And then, coming out of thatenvironment, you realize that
that's actually not the norm in,let's call it, the normal world
, and so for me it is, yes, inthat kind of buzzword of
authenticity, but for me a lotof it's unapologetic, is one of

(14:58):
the things in terms ofmasculinity, like being
disagreeable, not on purpose,but not just being overly
agreeable and overly peoplepleasing speak in your mind
being clear and direct, whichsounds very simple, but from
what I find is, a lot of peopleare not clear and direct and a
lot of people take offense and alittle bit sensitive.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
So they're some of the main things that I see from
my personal opinion with thatand so, like by you saying that
are you, do you think that we'vehad to be to apologize as being
men more recently, in terms of,like what we're seeing in the
media and the patriarchy andstuff, are you finding that it's
harder to be a man perhaps?

Speaker 3 (15:41):
um, I I don't.
Personally I don't think it'sharder it's depending on what
you're looking at to determine,like what you should be or who
you should be as a man, like howyou should express that, what's
okay, what's not okay, what'sgood, what's bad, and like
there's a lot of bullshit outthere and and if you listen to

(16:02):
it, then in a sense you aregoing to suppress a lot of
yourself as a man, a lot of yourkind of masculinity.
I think that actually comesfrom a lack of self-assuredness,
because if you were veryself-assured and comfortable
with yourself, then you wouldn'treally be overly concerned by
that so much.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
What kind of?

Speaker 3 (16:22):
bullshit are you seeing out?
There, see, kind of a lot ofapproaches towards men is like
it's approaches that are generic, like self-development, that
are, I think, a bit morefeminine, and not to say that
they're all wrong, it's likesome of them work and, depending
on who you are, but there's abig missing part that's specific

(16:44):
for men.
That gets missed, and I I tendto get a lot of backlash for
that, which I'm okay with.
I don't mind that it's againcoming from the military, so,
weirdly, I kind of enjoy it likea love language.
But, um, but yeah, there's a lotof these approaches, even
things around you know, like menbeing more emotional, is this
like that gets skewed as well,as it's like is it being more

(17:04):
emotional?
That gets skewed as well.
It's just like is it being moreemotional or is it being more
emotionally aware, being able toself-regulate your emotions,
being able to control youremotions, being able to actually
talk about how you feel withoutkind of being chaotic and being
a mess, and there's some ofthese things where I think the

(17:26):
intention is is there, but Ijust think it's just thrown in
the bucket with normalself-development and, like you
know, men and women are, they'rejust the same.
They can't need the same things, and I really think that's one
of the biggest problems so justto be clear there.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
So you're saying that , uh, men should have emotions
and they should express them.
They should just not do it inlike a chaotic way, lose control
.
Can you tell us more about thesort of the ideal of how a man
should uh deal with his emotions?

Speaker 3 (17:56):
well again, from my perspective is like just of
course, is like we're human aswell, right, but it's like we
deal with emotions differentlythan than women do.
Like, for example, like a lotof women will like sit and
they'll talk about theiremotions all the time with their
girlfriends and feelings andemotions all the time with their
girlfriends wake.
And men don't do that so muchand it's it can be really hard

(18:19):
for men to kind of to really gointo that by.
You know, sit with your guyfriends drinking wine and eating
ice cream and talking aboutyour feelings and emotions.
It's not common.
But like, for example, I do alot of adventure based and
nature based work with guys islike you take a bunch of guys on
a hike or on an adventure anddo some cool shit and some
challenges and Pat kind of likeautomatically from that is

(18:42):
you're gonna, you're gonna talkabout things, like things are
going to come up, you're goingto open up a little bit more,
but without trying or withoutbeing forced.
It's like this the differencebetween, like you know, women
are more eye to eye, like Ifixed, kind of talking,
conversations about feelings andemotions, and men are more kind
of shoulder to shoulder kind ofdoing something.
It's like like the action first, chat later.

(19:04):
Philosophy is like we go dosome shit and then we talk
during or after.
It's like it comes through thekind of the action of doing,
rather than just sitting like ina therapy chair staring at
somebody, someone looking backat you and then going okay, talk
about your feelings andemotions yeah, I think that's
supported by, as we mentioned, aprevious episode with ryan park

(19:25):
and his talk about testosterone.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
His prescription for men is just get your
testosterone up and then you canmaybe talk about your emotions.
So, doing some adventure, doingsome exercise, doing, you know,
driving a fast car, choppingwood, whatever it is is, uh is
what he's prescribed for people.
So, yeah, it sounds like you'reon the same page there yeah,
and I honestly think that's.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
I think that's why I think men struggle so much,
because they I think they thinksomething's wrong with them if
they can't and sit, and againyou get a lot of women that are
looking at men through theirwomen's brains and being like,
well, do what we do, you know,sit and talk about your feelings
and your emotions with us.
All the time it's like it's easy, but I don't think it's the

(20:10):
predominant way for men toactually work through emotions
and I think that's why a lot ofguys find it extra difficult,
because it's almost like theydon't know really how to do that
because it's never been taughtit really.
So it's like, okay, fit intothis bracket and then wonder why
it still feels so hard.
But like you actually give you,you put guys into an
environment that's more suitedfor for men and the way that we

(20:33):
actually deal with things likephysiologically or
psychologically, and it's likeit's actually so much easier.
It really is.
It's not that difficult forguys to kind of start talking
about stuff when you're like,say, when you're in some sort of
action.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yeah, absolutely yeah and I definitely think the
prescription for men over thelast whatever since it's, I
don't know, since feminism 3.0came along, or Me Too it's just
men you just need to be morelike women and then you'll be
okay, and it's not panning out.
I think a lot of people havetried that.
A lot of people have becomeeffeminate and emasculated and

(21:08):
they're worse off than before.
But I think at the same time,there were problems of
masculinity.
The term toxic masculinity hasbecome sort of ubiquitous and it
gets thrown around too much inmy opinion and I don't think
it's helpful anymore.
But are there dangers of beingtoo masculine?
Well, what's too masculine?

(21:29):
Well, how about?
What are the negative sides ofmasculinity that maybe we want
to cut out?

Speaker 3 (21:37):
I don't.
I don't think there's.
If it's genuine likemasculinity, I don't think there
is any dangers of it.
To be honest, if it's in thathealthy expression, then it's
actually masculinity itself, isnot?
It's not dangerous, it's moreprotective than anything.
So so, yeah, I don't see thosearguments.
When people talk about that andlike, especially the toxic
masculinity, I'm like well, it's, it isn't masculinity then, is

(21:59):
it?
It's just behavioral.
So I think if you want toprotect, like masculinity is
like, you've got to take thoseextra terms out and go well,
masculinity itself is extremelyhealthy, it's protective, it's
safe, it's trustworthy and is ityou know with, as guys?

(22:20):
Yeah, we have a lot of work asa whole to get ourselves into
that place.
That's our responsibility asindividuals and as groups, you
know, as groups, especiallybecause that's where men will
thrive in the area.
But yeah, I don't see, um,anything in that in terms of
unhealthy aspects of masculinityI like that reframing it.
So they yeah, it's not that it'stoxic masculinity it's just not

(22:43):
masculinity yeah, and just justto add on to that as well, I
mean, like a lot, I'll come fromthe military, right, so it's
like a lot of people are notexposed to that, those
environments, and it's like alot of people are not exposed to
those environments and it'slike you know the parts that
people like to call toxic ordangerous or aggressive.
As men is like they are thefirst guys you want on your
fucking back, by your shoulderwhen the shit hits the fan or

(23:06):
something kicks off.
It's like your first respondersas well.
Right, it's like the military,your first responders, your
responders, your fire service,your police, like all of these.
I'm not saying that they're allextremely healthy, masculine,
but if you want to give anexample, it's like you know what
people see is too aggressive orviolent or dangerous.
It's like, well, you need that.
That is a part of masculinity,but it's how it's managed and

(23:28):
handled.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
That's our job you almost preempted my next
question, craig, but I was goingto say you said you.
I think you said you joined thenavy at 16 and stayed for 13
years.
I mean, yeah, that's a hugepart of your life for those of
us who don't come from militarybackground, could you?

Speaker 3 (23:43):
give us a bit of sort of insight into what you learn
and what are the key takeawaysfrom that time um, besides being
able to drink copious amountsof alcohol and still go to work
with no sleep, which is adifferent lifetime now, well,
there's a lot of things that arelike that that, to give more
context, I suppose into that.

(24:04):
It's like I didn't notice thatbecause it was just my normal
environment until I left and Istruggled and I was like why am
I struggling?
It's like what's going on and Ididn't have the awareness and
to go oh yeah, of course I'vejust left.
An environment it's like is ithas a massive structure.
It is you know you're in anenvironment surrounded by men

(24:24):
all the time, going throughshared challenge.
You have a leadership hierarchy.
Is you go through difficulttimes together and you kind of
suffer and struggle together.
Is you're constantly trainingand practicing in skill sets and
leadership and training in forhigh risk environments, so
you're continuously developing.
But I never equated anything todo with that.

(24:47):
It's just a man, I was just inthe navy, you know.
So there's a lot of thosethings that for me, are core
principles for guys in some wayshape or form.
Not, say, go and join themilitary, but to be able to
extract them and integrate theminto day-to-day life somehow is
like for me is like foundationalyeah and so, yeah, you

(25:07):
mentioned a little bit aboutlike struggling.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
Was that to adjust to what were you doing after the
military, or was it just nothingto do with what you're actually
doing, more just like takingyourself out of that environment
?

Speaker 3 (25:18):
A lot of it's identity.
And so you know, I'm 16, I'mstill developing, and then I'm
leaving as a 30-year-old andthis has been my whole identity.
So there's that part which wasprobably one of the scariest
times in my life, because I'venever really struggled before,
to be honest.
And so there was that part.
There was the structure,because obviously there's a

(25:40):
massive, massively helpfulinfrastructure in the military
that is very useful, that youkind of slot into.
So when I left, I was chaoticand I had a lot of anxiety and I
didn't know what I was doing.
I was really struggling becauseI'm like, oh, I've got to
create my own structure now.
I've never done that beforebecause I just slotted into it.
I'm like, oh shit, this is hard, I've got to create my own

(26:05):
structure now.
But the thing is, with all thesestruggles, what it made me
realize is like, oh, I couldfall back on something, is like,
oh, I could fall back onsomething.
I've got experience, extensiveexperience, that I can fall back
on.
And I'm like, oh, all of thisis actually useful for me to
just kind of remold andimplement now.
And it kind of hit me holy shit.
It's like that's all right forme, but what do guys do that

(26:27):
they haven't had, that, theyhaven't been in a structure or
trained in that way or been in agroup or trained in that way or
been in their group of men thatway, and what do they fall back
on?
And it's nothing, absolutelynothing.
So it's kind of like a blessingin disguise, really, for me to
kind of understand at a deeperlevel of what I had and how, how
it can be restructured intointo everyday life so can you

(26:51):
talk a bit about the men's workyou do to help other guys sort
of maybe avoid some of thosechallenging times that you had?
uh, I wouldn't say avoidchallenging times.
I'd say the opposite is like gofind some challenge and let's
make some challenge.
So again, I look at it from aleadership perspective.
I've been down the routesmyself.
I've, like you know, I've gonedown different avenues in in men

(27:14):
work.
I've gone into the masculine,feminine dynamics and a lot of
the kind of the self developmentstuff around men and like and
it's cool, but something justkind of.
And when I started explaining itto men in the form of
leadership, they were just likeoh yeah, I get that, I
understand that no-transcript,all these sorts of things

(28:01):
assertiveness, decisiveness,taking action is clear
communication, like all thesethings I would learn in the navy
that I didn't even realize I'dlearned and they were just
normal.
So again, remolding those andlike teaching it in the form of
leadership, guys just understandand it's honestly, it is really
simple for guys to understandthat.

(28:21):
And when they focus on thosebasics you could refer to like
basic training right, but in asense like military basic
training is like men's basictraining that you didn't get and
then everything starts toimprove.
Businesses start to improve istheir finances, their
relationships, their, theirhealth and social circles.

(28:42):
They're going off and doingmore cool shit and then going on
adventures and taking onchallenges, and it's certain
things that I think men need,that we don't have because it's
so comfortable in normal lifethat I don't think men see that
as like you need to go do somehard shit, like you need to
create some adversity.

(29:02):
You need to create somechallenge, because if you don't,
and you don't get used to beingable to build up your
resilience and mental toughnessand emotional regulation and
stress management is it's goingto be so much worse.
So, and I don't think you can'tget that from sitting behind a
screen.
There's a certain amount of,you know, good work you can do

(29:24):
sat behind a screen, but fromwhat I found is like you take
guys out into mountains, or wehave a signature event of like
called wildman challenge as well, where you do some intense shit
, you're carrying logs andboulders up mountains and it is
is hardcore, and the guys arelike how do we do that?
It's just like I don'tunderstand that and it's really,

(29:47):
really hard, but they, they gofor those shifts and those gears
and those switches instantly,in the moment.
You have to experience it, inmy opinion, not just sit behind
the screen and do you knowbehind the screen?
Coaching?
It's like it.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
It does work to a level, but I don't think
anything can replace thein-person work yeah, I think it
makes a lot of sense, this whole, the coddling of our society,
the coddling of the Americanmind one of my favorite books
and for people who, or men, who,don't understand why they're
happy and they're living thislife behind a screen, I think

(30:23):
it's fairly obvious that thebody seeks challenge, just like
we were reading about theastronauts in space at the
moment.
Because there's no gravity,their hearts are atrophying.
They need the stress of gravityfor their hearts to maintain
strong, and if we have nochallenge other than I don't
know whatever it is behind acomputer screen, then our, our
minds atrophy in in some ways,and I think that goes a long way

(30:47):
to explaining a lot of people'smental health challenges.
Yeah, um, yeah, you want to saysomething?

Speaker 3 (30:53):
on that I was gonna say no, I, I totally agree with
that and I and I think it's kindof like a catch-22 where a lot
of guys resist that because theydon't feel confident in
themselves or they, they, theyfeel weak or timid and they
don't want to put themselves inan environment.
And obviously a lot of us guys,when we're doing that, we look,
you know, pretty jacked andaggressive and but it's also a

(31:16):
lot of fun and we, you know,give each other shit and
camaraderie.
But even that I think a lot ofguys aren't used to that.
So when you're in a group ofguys and again a bit of the
military aspect is which I thinkis really healthy in a group of
men to be able to have that, tobe able to shit, talk each
other and the camaraderie wherethat's not the total of the
communication, of course youneed to know that, like you know

(31:37):
, if you've got something goingon, obviously you bring that to
the table, but I think a lot ofguys aren't used to that.
They shy away from it, but it'sactually a big part of, I think
, of what you need to getyourself into and then when
you're around that and you'regoing on these challenges,
you're like shit man.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I didn't realize how much I needed that yeah,
absolutely, and I think that thesort of the rugby club,
military football clubatmosphere it has a lot of
positives to it and I played,played a lot of sports for a lot
of different teams as a youngperson but there definitely were
some environments that I, youknow, I absolutely hated clubs

(32:13):
where there was that sort ofone-upmanship and there was that
sort of like nasty tinge tothings and I I would have let, I
left those clubs fairly quickly.
So how do you sort of you know,walk that fine line between
bullying and, you know, healthyinteractions?

Speaker 3 (32:30):
well personally, when I look at it in our groups, is
that I just know, and if there'sany of that that escalates
because you know it can easilyescalate and there can be a fine
line with that.
But I think because I crossedthat many times in the military,
I kind of know where that is.
But you can just tell whenpeople are doing that.
You can just tell how peopletalk to other people, whether
it's coming across as a bitsnide, or if someone's insecure

(32:51):
and trying to put someone elsedown because they feel shit
about themselves.
The way we do it is.
I'm really clear on that.
So guys know there's no fuckingtolerance for that in our groups
.
And also as well, if someone istaking something a bit too far,
it's also your job to speak upas well.
Also, because a lot of it'srespect is like the honor in a

(33:14):
group of men is just like, yes,you can do that, you can have
the camaraderie, you can ribeach other.
I think that's actually a bigpart of men bonding together as
well.
But it's not from a place ofI'm really insecure, so I'm
going to put you down and giveyou shit.
It's just like you just don'ttolerate it.
But but it weirdly is because Idon't know.
I think sometimes it's how youcome across as a leader.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
People just don't even try it, to be honest yeah,
I've looked into the sort of thepsychology of bullying and, as
you say, like in these maleenvironments, there is normally
a pecking order.
There is normally a leader anda second, a third, fourth, fifth
, and it's never like the firstand second person in the
hierarchy.
That's bullying.
It's the person who's likesixth or seventh and they're

(33:58):
bullying someone who's likeeighth or ninth in the pecking
order because they want to, youknow, pick someone weaker than
them or with lower standing toimpress the people higher up.
But yeah, when that does happen, that's when it comes to to
good leadership, you know themen at the top.
Yeah, absolutely, I think whatum?

Speaker 3 (34:16):
but what I do with that as well is we, we lay, we
lay it down, like when we do thechallenges in the mountains,
because I know what's going tohappen in that, like you are
going to get a bit reactive,it's like you're probably going
to get a bit angry and pissedoff.
You're probably going to tell meto fuck off.
Uh, and that's fine.
It's like it's expected becauseyou're really pushing yourself

(34:36):
beyond an edge and it bringsemotional stuff up.
It brings stuff up that youhide, maybe a bit of that darker
side that men don't tap into.
We actually want that to comeout.
So it's like so, I'm aware ofthat.
So, before we even start thesethings, we just we lay things
down and say you know, this isprobably going to happen, this
is what's okay, this is not okay.
And if this happens, it's likeyou'll be asked to leave, and so

(34:58):
it's just laid down straightaway.
And you find, like guys respectthat, but I think that comes
from the leadership of just likeoh, okay, people will fall into
so you mentioned a bit aboutthe structure of it.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Can you give us a bit of insight into what it looks
like when you do the wild manchallenges or some of your men's
groups?
How does it all?
How do you give?

Speaker 3 (35:25):
them the structure that's so needed it depends
they're.
They're different.
So I I do that myself in, likemy with my personal clients as
well, so it might be like apersonal just one-on-one, which
is an intimate experience.
There's only two of you.
Go in the middle of nowhere, goin the mountains, you're
camping out, you're having a lotof deep conversations.
It's a little bit of challenge,of course, because it's still

(35:47):
hard work.
It's not a walk in the park,but you've also.
That also brings to thoughtyou're in nature, you've got no
distractions, you've got nothinggoing on.
So it's some of it's a removalprocess.
So you're removing alldistractions, all reactivities
from day to day and I think whenyou do that, stuff naturally
comes to the surface.
So in a way it's quite aneffortless process.

(36:08):
In that respect, we do have asignature wildman challenge
which is very hard.
It's like five or six days andit is full-on.
It is it's like you're doingstuff constantly, like, say, you
might be carrying boulders ormountains.
We go to different locationseach day for different kind of

(36:29):
tasks that we do.
You might be carrying eachother up mountains.
Again, there's a lot of.
It is like is to bring the guystogether and bond the guys
together, because when you dothat the conversations in the
evening around the barbecueagain, the community, the guys
together and bond the guystogether.
Because when you do that theconversations in the evening
around the barbecue again thecommunity, bring guys together
in community is theconversations will go.
Sometimes you get tears as wellif you start talking about
fathers.
That's always a good one tobring up.

(36:51):
Where guys will be like likestraight away.
It's there on the surface so itcan seem very military-esque or
we kind of pitch it as like it'sa mix between SAS who dares
wins, a Spartan race and anultramarathon all rolled
together.
But that is created to bringguys together because it's that

(37:14):
concept of the military right.
Why is the military anenvironment where men see it as
like a brotherhood, likeprobably the tightest I've ever
seen, or like why we watch, uh,military movers or war movies
and you see the guys togetherand for that they're like our
chick flicks and um, it'sbecause of that shared challenge
that brings us guys together.

(37:34):
You go through hardshiptogether.
You'll build trust and rely onother guys more than probably
you ever have, and that's a realchallenge for guys to like is
that to be able to trust someonenext to them, and when you do
that you'll open up and talkabout all your shit like easily,
way more easily.
So it is kind of like a trojanhorse of here's some really cool

(37:56):
hardcore stuff you're going todo in a moment is to push
yourself physically and mentally, which is again it's really
provoking all of that otherstuff to the surface.
And that's when we kind of sitaround the table in the evening.
We, we all cook dinner together, we sit there and just like
having those conversations allnight.
We'll drop little seeds in orstart one off.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
It just kind of unravels from there and is there
any of the misogi concept inthere?
Have you heard of misogi?

Speaker 3 (38:26):
yeah, the comfort crisis yeah, so it kind of is
for a lot of guys that is,they're not like.
They say that kind of like youknow once a year is having a, so
you challenge right is for alot of guys that's their
lifetime.
Um, the sogies, it's like theysay that's the hardest thing
I've ever done in my life.
Um, but also like one of thebest and it's so.
Yeah, it is kind of that, butnot intentionally.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
Um, yeah, so, yeah, and you know what a misogi is?
No, so misogi is this?
Yeah, is this japanese conceptof you take on a challenge that
you're probably going to fail,like carrying a really heavy
boulder up a really big hill?
I think it's the one from thecomfort.
Oh, that's the one that?
What's his name?
The bow hunter does?
I've got this quote up on mywall.

(39:10):
Yeah, cam Haines.
Yeah, nobody cares, work hard,I've got that in my corner there
.
But, yeah, the Masogi is.
The idea is that failure is theteacher.
You push yourself past thatperceived limit and the goal
isn't necessarily to achieve thegoal.

Speaker 3 (39:23):
The goal is to get as far as you can and learn from
failure yeah, it's also as wellbecause, like a lot of people
say, oh, it's like, oh, you knowwhat.
So you take guys out and thenyou break them first and like
and I'm like, no, actually, no,it is like, it might seem like
that, but's not, it's to takeyou to a perceived breaking
point and then being able tokind of taper that so you can

(39:46):
keep pushing and keep pushing.
Because what it is is likewe're showing guys, not talking.
We're showing guys look whatyou're capable of, look how much
you've actually got in the tank, look of how much of yourself
you're leaving on the table.
And when they do that, becauseall the excuses come up and this
is why we do it all the excusescome up, all the bullshit

(40:08):
stories come out, all the angerand frustration comes out, the
the injuries.
Oh, my shoulder hurts, my leghurts and we're like don't care,
keep going.
And they're like oh, someone'sgonna get an injury.
Look, it's not my first rodeo,I know how this works.
And a lot of the time the guysthey keep pushing through
they're like oh man, thatshoulder thing I had is gone now

(40:29):
.
Or that issue in my groin whereI could hardly walk is gone now
.
They're like how is thatpossible?
Like I'm like mate, does itmatter?
All it is is showing you thepower of like body and mind and
that, rather than talking aboutit is push yourself as far as
you think you can go and thenkeep pushing yourself further.

(40:49):
So in a sense, you're kind ofcreating this endurance mindset
in men, which I think is reallyimportant, because you might
have to push longer than youwant to and in a sense, you
might have no choice and itmight be tough shit.
You've got to keep pushinguntil it's done, until the job's
done.
And that's a really hardconcept for a lot of men to
accept and I don't think it'sreally taught that much, but
it's one of the I think it's oneof the truths for guys.

(41:11):
It's like you, you really needthat skill set to have yeah,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
I know one of the things you talk about is
standards.
So do you think people'sstandards are too low these days
?

Speaker 3 (41:41):
honestly think it's 100 true, and it's sad as well,
because if men realize how muchthey actually had to do to stand
out and separate themselvesfrom that and have high
standards, it's not a lot, and Ifind this really is like.
I found this really surprisingof when I was working with these
kind of senior managers,corporate leaders, business
leaders etc.
I thought, oh, you know,they're all down with leadership
, they've got the basics nailedand everything like that.
I'm like it's really not thetruth at all.

(42:03):
And the only thing I had tocompare against was the military
.
I've never been in those otherenvironments.
I've been literally militaryand then pretty much coaching in
some way shape or form.
So I was really shocked.
These guys are paying me a lotof money and we're kind of
really focusing on really basicshit.
But then you start to see islike but I understand that again

(42:25):
, it's like a military basictraining is the basic training?
For a reason guys are skippingthe foundations and like when
you actually nail those down andyou're consistent with them
over a long period of time andyou've got a really good
structure in all areas of yourlife, is other things seem to
start falling into place andthis is the thing of like oh,
the shiny shit, right, the shinyhacks, the shiny tools, the new

(42:49):
program or the new concept,well, maybe at higher levels for
tweaks, but not for most people.
Most people don't need that toreally get their shit in order
and raise their standards.
Focus on the basics.
It reminded me of a guy.
Actually, we had one of ourprograms and part of it do,

(43:11):
because we use a lot of physical.
You know, get your health inorder, right, get your health
and your well-being in order.
So a lot of that's your foodyou eat, your exercise, all this
stuff like the basics thatpeople seem to know but not so
many people seem to practice.
And for weeks he was saying I'mstruggling to lose this weight
and I says, well, have you justtracked your calories to see
where you're at?
Not to track them constantly,but just to see where you're at.

(43:34):
You know, get some data and seewhere you're at.
It's like oh, yeah, yeah.
Then he's like oh, I saw thisvideo by andrew hooberman when
he talks about shaking to likelose body fat and I was like,
dude, shut the fuck up.
Is this like?
Why are you watching videos?
I'm shaking.
I'm like just do the basics.
Just do the thing you'reavoiding and you will see the

(43:54):
results happen very quickly.
And then, like a few weekslater, he'd come back as oh yeah
, so this has happened now and Idid this thing, as, oh my god,
I'm so fucking shocked.
Um, so it's like looking forlike an easy fix or or a magic
secret, yet those things areactually the basics that people

(44:16):
deem too simple.
Oh, it's too simple.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
It's too simple that there must be something else
that's quicker and easier um,have you seen that south park
episode where on ozempic whereozempic is this new weight loss
drug and kartman goes in andthey tell him about ozempic for
losing weight and then they sayhow much it is?

(44:40):
It's, you know, a couplethousand dollars a month and his
mum can't afford that.
So, like, okay for you, weprescribe you body positivity
and Lizzo, so rich people get it, poor people get body
positivity and Lizzo.
And I think, like the reason Ibring that up is one, it's funny
, but two, it's because wereally do need to filter out a

(45:01):
lot of the rubbish.
Like, yeah, I, in terms ofstandards, I think, like to
think that I'm aiming for, youknow, top 10.
I don't want to be average, anda lot of people are just happy
being average and they try to.
I feel like a lot of timepeople try to pull me down from
having those high standards.
Yeah, and it is a realchallenge to filter these things

(45:22):
out.
You know people will say likeyou don't need to do that.
You know, just have fun, letloose, have some drinks.
You know, screw your disciplineto go to bed late.
Like, just have fun and partywith us, and one of the things I
think that is needed forsuccess in whatever filter is
discipline and to be able tofilter those things out.
And I really noticed with you,craig, is like you have such

(45:43):
certainty in the things you say,and I think this is one thing
that's really sort of undermined.
Men is this sort of the oneaspect of toxic femininity which
is supposedly indecisiveness,so how do you manage to say,
stay so certain?

Speaker 3 (45:58):
I think stubbornness is a big part of that.
But I think, from again, themilitary gave me so much
confidence because I take a lotof my principles out there.
I know they work without adoubt.
I know for 100 that they workif applied, and also because I
have lost my way.
When I left I did go down thattrack where I was kind of a bit

(46:19):
lost and disconnected frommyself and I was in this shit
man.
I've lost my identity.
I don't know how.
And when you're uncertain ofyourself you look around to what
other people are doing and whatother people are saying, oh, I
guess I should do this or Iguess I should be like this.
And fortunately for me, I hadcontrast where I loved who I was
in the military and I fuckinghated who I became outside of

(46:39):
the military.
And there's a balance point forthat, obviously, because
there's certain parts I neededto develop as a man that were
very boyish in the military.
But I think having the contrastof that and going well, I liked
myself there, I don't likemyself here.
I'm going to go back to likingmyself and being like that and
if other people have a problemwith is not my problem.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
That's kind of how I see it, to be honest is that why
you say roy keen is your spiritanimal?
Uh, he was just stalking myface?

Speaker 3 (47:08):
it is no, but you know, it's like.
It's like a kind of like,because I love to use humor as
well and this is a big thing,right, he's like is humor is
such a missing superpower inmen's work.
Um, right now, and basically inall self-development, people
are so fucking serious andsensitive.
If you can make fun of stuffthat's supposed to be serious,
you're, you're doing really well.

(47:29):
It's like that's, that's asuper tool, that is.
But like roy keen, like, look atroy keen, he's, he's like he's,
he's kind of unpurposely funny,like people.
People love him because he'sjust so.
He didn't give, give a fuck.
He just says exactly what hethinks.
But that's why people like him,because he doesn't mince his
words, he doesn't care, he'sjust like.
This is what I think.
And again, he has super highstandards.

(47:49):
I think he thinks mostfootballers are shit and most
teams are shit.
But it's like, I think, becausehe has super high standards,
because he's been a champion atthe highest level, and also he's
like he just says exactly whathe thinks.
Yeah, yeah.
So, spirit animal, I was goingto say for that?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, exactly, it's a good spirit animal.
Yeah, I'm a man United fan anda big fan of Roy.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Keane.

Speaker 2 (48:11):
So I think the worst ones, the um.
I was going to say like for,for people who maybe do spend
too much time behind a desk, onscreens or whatever, can you
give some like practical tips ofhow to sort of challenge
yourself day to day?
If you're living in a big city,sure, um, you maybe do work
quite long hours like what do wecan't be running up hills with
built, with boulders, what, whatpractical things we could build

(48:32):
into routine but you can scalethat down again.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
I'd say is like is is do something challenging.
But again, it's like I thinksometimes is make the barrier to
entry kind of lower and moreaccessible, but still make it
hard, right.
So I'm like you could go outfor a walk, go out for a walk
but then throw some weight onyour back, take a 20 kilo vest
or some weight in your backpackand then go for a rock.

(48:56):
It's like it's super simple,it's just walking but carrying
extra weight, and for me it'slike one of the best things for
you.
It's like you're gettingstronger, you're getting fitter.
Your body's got to adapt to getstronger because it's carrying
extra weight.
It's hard, depending on how muchyou can carry and everyone can
do it.
It's like what excuse have yougot to not go outside and walk?

(49:18):
So you've got to cut, gooutside and walk.
Like so you gotta, you gottacut through the, the excuses and
the bullshit.
I'm not saying like, oh, yougotta go, you gotta work out
seven days a week in a gym fortwo hours and you gotta go and
carry, uh, a boulder up yourclosest mountain and stuff like
that.
It's like, no, it's like that'san extreme level that you come

(49:38):
to our events.
For you can break that downinto basics Do a load of
press-ups every day it dependswhere you're starting at right
Do 100 press-ups a day and dothat for like 30 days, 90 days
Can you be consistent with that?
Can you do that every day?
If you can't, why are you eventhinking about doing anything
else?
So this is the level of likesimplicity I think that I look

(50:02):
at through that military brainof, like you know, discipline,
consistency.
Do the same shit over and overagain every day.
That seems boring andmonotonous.
It's like, yeah, because if youcan't do that, it's like you,
just you, you got really nobusiness looking at kind of
stacking anything else on top ofthat.
So things like that like notfancy at all.

(50:25):
Will people go and do that?
Probably not, but it's a goodplace to start.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
Why is it that so many people fall away then from
like New Year's resolutions ordiet plans or fitness plans?
What can people do who are justconstantly finding themselves
falling off this stuff?

Speaker 3 (50:43):
I think people just put too much pressure on
themselves or they don'tunderstand.
Like you know.
You know, the way to havelong-term change is like you
know, small bites.
It's like people go I'm goingto change everything at once.
It's like, no, you're not.
Like, no, I'm not going to dothat.
I do the same thing.
It's like if I'm like putting anew habit in or I'm kind of

(51:03):
upgrading the habits and I'veactually not been doing this
consistently over the lastcouple of weeks and like, okay,
then it's like I'm obviouslymaking it too much of a higher
barrier to entry in my mind.
So, what's something that seemssuper easy for me?
I'm like, okay, that, oh yeah,yeah, that's super easy.
Okay, me, I'm like, okay, that,oh yeah, yeah, that's super
easy.
Okay, let's see.
Okay, I'm consistent with that.
Let's hold this for a while andthen build on it.

(51:26):
So it's like am I going to goand run a 10K every single day?
I want to run every day.
I have done it a couple oftimes this week.
Okay, it's too much.
Okay, rather than force myselfand do a Goggins, it's just like
, well, what's going to be alower barrier to entry where my
mind can be like, okay, that'seasy.
Like you've got to cut forconstant resistance.
You've got to be able to cutfor that constant resistance.

(51:47):
It's always there.
So, okay, a 5K, oh, that'sgreat.
That's like, you know, 20minutes, 25 minutes or something
.
It's just like, yeah, sure, Iwith a dog, if I need to just
chuck a, chuck my vest on or Ican run that.
Some days it's like, okay, yeah, cool, and I'm consistent with
that and I stick to that.
So it's and again, it's easy tosay that, but people don't have

(52:07):
that mentality and I always sayit's mentality first.
It's like you need to train andpractice to have the mentality
and the way of thinking tounderstand yourself and to be
able to be adaptable in inbuilding your foundations,
building your habits and beingable to hold them and be
consistent with them and nottalk to yourself like a piece of
shit every time that you don'tfollow through with it yeah, I

(52:32):
also think the what I mentionedearlier about sort of filtering
out things.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
I think when people want to change habits you know
someone wants to lose weight andtheir partner is also needs to
lose weight and doesn't want tolose weight they'll find ways of
just chipping away and beinglike, oh, you don't need to go
for that run or that kind ofthing.
It is such a challenge and it'sreally important to surround
yourself with people with withsimilar mindsets that's a really
good point and that's somethingas well.

Speaker 3 (52:57):
That is really difficult, I think, for a lot of
people, because I think it'snot so much doing the things,
it's like it's meaning whatyou're going to potentially lose
as well.
So if you're in a relationshipand you'll go through this
transformation and someone's noton board with that they don't
want to do, that's fine.
But that relationship might notlast, it might not have much

(53:20):
legs left in it and that's goingto be a really difficult
decision to make and that'sreally hard for a lot of people
to do.
And it's a lot of.
These things are like you know,people who thought you were
friends, it's like they mightnot be your friends anymore.
You might have to go newcircles.
But I think something for meagain, like a personalist, I
think, because, again, being inthe, the navy, I moved from ship
to ship all the time and I metnew people all the time.

(53:43):
So when I left, I was again,and this is why I always put it
down to mentality first, becauseit's not something that's
unique to me, I think, it's amentality.
I really put that acrossbecause it is something that you
can build and I would just go.
Well, I'm doing this now and ifyou're coming along for that,
cool if not cool, and not to saythat there won't be some kind

(54:05):
of bit of pain involved in thatbecause it might mean you don't
hang around with certain peopleanymore, but it's just like
again, it's that you know levelof self-respect and standards
for self, that self-leadership,that well, I'm going over here
and this is what I'm doing.
If you don don't want to come,that's fine.
It's like, do you?
That's awesome.
I'm not saying you have to, butthis is just where I'm going

(54:25):
and that's it.
But a lot of people see that asselfish as well.
Oh, you're just being selfish.
It's like all right, cool, I'mcreating the life that I want.
And that is challenging becauseyou will have again.
This comes back to the conflictas well in communication.
Right, there might be conflictfor that and a lot of people I
find hate conflict.
I don't enjoy conflict, butI've got no problem with it.

(54:48):
I'll do it.
It's uncomfortable but I'll doit.
And again, I think part of thatis again in the military, where
we used to be so direct witheach other.
It looked like we were likeabout to throw fists, but it's
just like.
It's just you kind of, in a way.
You need that level of clearcommunication and being okay
with conflict.
Because of the level of riskenvironments that you're in.

(55:09):
You can't be pissing around orlike being like, oh I don't want
to say anything in casesomebody's feelings get hurt or
someone gets offended.
It's just like you've got to beable to be like that, and I
think part of that as well islike that dark side of
masculinity as well, where, likethe nice guy thing right, it's
like guys think if I'm justreally nice to people, then
people will love me, people willdo things for me, women will

(55:32):
fuck me and all this whereas andI don't want to be an arsehole,
I don't want to be seen as anarsehole, but everyone's got a
bit of that arsehole in them andyou have to be able to own that
part of yourself that you mightjudge as an arsehole, because
that's the part of you that'sactually is great with putting
boundaries down, saying no,being clear and direct with
people, being okay with beingdisagreeable and and going in

(55:55):
your own direction, regardlessof, like, who's going with you
or not yeah, and again I'm gonnarepeat the whole filtering out
things.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
You know what you said, that people are going to
call you selfish and you have tofilter that out.
And then there's also this, thisconcept of stated and revealed
preferences.
I don't know if I've mentionedthis to you before, andy, but
I'm going to talk about niceguys who think that if they're
nice, women will have sex withthem.
And there was a study they didwhere they had a load of
pictures of men and women wereto rate to their attractiveness

(56:27):
and they rated the sort of thenice looking men you know,
handsome but likenon-threatening men, is the most
attractive, boy next door typeof person is the most attractive
.
But then they also they had thesort of the numbers, the sex
numbers of each person.
You know how many people eachperson had sex with and it was
actually the men who looked themost threatening, who looked the

(56:49):
most masculine, who looked themost scary, who had the most
sexual partners.
So it's like women say theywant this nice guy, but then
they don't actually sleep with anice guy, they sleep with the
intimidating, scary guy.
And it comes back to thatfiltering out.
You know the nonsense.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
I have a phrase for that.
That, again, is reallydifficult to get across in
writing on social media withoutpeople taking it the wrong way,
because there's no tone orcontext with it.
In a sense it's, and it is abit tongue in cheek, but it's
like don't listen to what shesays.
Uh, pay attention to what sheresponds to, and there is

(57:26):
actually a lot of truth in that.
Like I joked with my girlfriendwith this as well, because
she's you know, she works on thesouth like a lot too.
It's like we're like have agreat relationship and and I
said that to her she's likeyou're right, half the time I
have no idea what I want.
I have no idea.
So it's like you shouldn'tlisten to what I say all the
time.
Absolutely like, most of thetime I have no clue, and but

(57:47):
it's again.
It's like and this is a big partof leadership as well.
So when I'd say aboutleadership, I'm not just talking
about like military leadershipor business leadership and in
the boardroom, etc.
You'll actually find most ofyour areas you need to work on.
Leadership is in a relationshiplike in a I'm talking about a
man woman relationship um is youwill find most of your areas to

(58:11):
work with as a man inleadership in your relationships
.
100 percent, um, and you'lltell that by how the woman
responds to you in relationship,or how sexually attractive she
is to you, or how much sheinstigates sex and like you know
how she, how the level ofrespect and admiration and
desire she has for you, the wayshe lights up around you, like

(58:33):
how feminine she actually is inherself, how resentful or angry
she gets, like lots of things is.
It's a lot of that is down toyour leadership as a man.
It's like, like I said at thestart, is we don't actually
focus that much on therelationship stuff as in like
this in your relationship islike I mean you can, like you

(58:56):
know a good bit about that, butI just find is like you focus on
the man, is you're getting toprioritize himself and you're
getting to install those kind ofthose masculine leadership
traits and oh, fully enough, oh,she's starting to respond to
you differently in yourrelationship, like shock yeah, I
think that's a really key pointthat you said that the more

(59:17):
masculine you are, the morepermission you give her to be
feminine.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
And she may, and most women want to be more feminine
not all of them do but yeah, forsex, I think the idea that we
need to men need to be morefeminine and women need to be
more masculine like that justkills sex.
Drive in in tantra and allthese other things they really
emphasize the masculine,feminine polarity.
If you don't have men being men, women being women, then the

(59:43):
sexual charge often goes away.
And I see this in relationships.
You know there's a woman who's,you know, crushing her job and
the guy's sort of looking afterthe kids, and they're like, yeah
, but we don't really have sexanymore.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Like it's great, but there's no sex drive, I'm not
attracted to him anymore, andit's like, well, this might be
one of the consequences of ofthat decision yeah, and it is,
and even in that as well, likein relationship, it's not even
meaning like you've got to besome big, jacked kind of
yellowstone looking cowboy to bemasculine, like I say.

(01:00:16):
It's more of like character andthe personality and the
character traits of that ofbeing assertive is standing your
ground is.
It's like I joke with hannah,my girlfriend as well as is like
where she'll ask me things allthe time.
I'll try to get me to do thingsa fair amount of time.
I'll say no and she's like, ohgod, like jokingly.
He's like I wish you'd just dowhat I wanted you wanted to do.

(01:00:37):
All the time I was was like no,you wouldn't Cause you would
absolutely fucking hate me if Ijust said yes to you all the
time.
And she's like this is true,yes.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
Yeah, that's what David data talks about.
I don't know if you have readthe way of the superior man.
Yeah, that's one of myfavorites.
It's like, yeah, and men thinkthey want they should submit to
the woman and give them whatthey want, but they don't.
The women actually want to knoware you strong enough to say no
to me?
Because if you're not evenstrong enough to say no to me,

(01:01:06):
then you're not going to bestrong enough to protect me and
I'm not going to.
You know, I'm not into thatyeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
If you look at the basic of, like what women need
for men in relationships, right,it still goes back to how it's
been for years.

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