46. Cultivating Curiosity as a Leader with Thomas Greek

Thomas Greek's leadership journey reads like a field guide for anyone who's ever struggled with the transition from boss to true leader. From his early days as a self-described "bossy boss" pointing at his metaphorical sheriff's badge, to becoming the youngest executive in his organization's history, Thomas reveals the pivotal moments that transformed his approach to leading others.

The conversation turns on a single question from a mentor who asked him, "Do you think your team likes working for you?" His initial response—"Does it matter?"—captures the mindset many new managers bring to leadership positions. This moment sparked a curiosity that would define his leadership philosophy moving forward.

What makes this episode particularly valuable is Thomas's willingness to share his vulnerabilities. He recounts landing an executive role running a multibillion-dollar credit card operation despite candidly admitting in the interview, "I'm not qualified for this job." His secret? Understanding that leadership excellence comes from building engaged teams and creating transformational environments, not from technical expertise alone.

Throughout our discussion, Thomas reveals practical frameworks like his "Three Ps" approach (People, Processes, Possibilities) and shares his favorite coaching question: "Is it true?" These simple but powerful tools have helped countless leaders shift from controlling to empowering, from telling to asking, and from feeling isolated to creating genuine connection.

Whether you're leading a small team or a large organization, Thomas's insights on psychological safety, workplace loneliness, and the integration of work and personal wellbeing offer a blueprint for more effective and fulfilling leadership. His parting wisdom? "Be kind. It's easy, it's free, and the world needs more of it."

Ready to transform your leadership approach? Learn more about Thomas's work helping leaders become coaches at thomasgreekcoaching.com.

Let’s keep the conversation going—connect with me on Instagram and LinkedIn, subscribe to my Sunday newsletter, or reach out at sara@leadintoitco.

Excited to be with you!

Episode Transcript

Sara (00:00):
Hi and welcome to episode 46 of the Lead Into it podcast.
Ever met someone with a similarlast name and instantly felt
like family?
That's exactly how this episodekicks off, with a little Greek
connection and a whole lot ofleadership wisdom.

(00:21):
Today, I'm joined by ThomasGreek, whose leadership journey
is as real and relatable as itgets, from his early days of
being the bossy boss his words,not mine to becoming a
transformational leader andcoach.
Thomas gets candid about thetough lessons, the pivotal
mentor moment that changedeverything, and the power of
leading with curiosity.
He's gone from running billiondollar operations to launching a

(00:44):
coaching program.
That's all about helpingleaders become better humans,
and we get into all of it.
If you've ever wondered how tolead with more empathy, create
psychological safety or just bea little bit more curious in
your day-to-day leadership, thisconversation is for you.
Stick around.
You're going to walk away withboth inspiration and some
seriously actionable takeaways.

(01:05):
Let's get into it.
Well, thomas, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
I'm so excited to talk to you.
Considering our last names areso similar, we're probably
somehow related.
So Greco, greek, so we'reprobably already family in
general.

Thomas (01:22):
I feel that kinship already yeah.

Sara (01:26):
I mean, we've only talked this is, I think, our second
time talking but our firstconversation a few weeks ago
felt as though we've known eachother for forever and when I was
coming up with who to bring onfor this season of lead into it,
your name popped into mind,where I was like I would really
enjoy a conversation with himand his background and kind of

(01:46):
sharing some of the stories thatwe talked about.
Just sharing that with others,cause I think they would really
enjoy it.

Thomas (01:52):
Well, I hope so.
I hope they enjoy it as much aswe will.
I know we will.
I think our first call wasscheduled for an hour, and like
two hours into it we're likeokay, maybe we should wrap this
up so we could talk all dayabout these things.
So we'll, we'll try to keep itcontained for your audience.

Sara (02:07):
Well, I can always edit it too, so just know that
whatever is being released, thatmight not be the whole episode,
but we'll find out.
Well, I'd love for you to kindof roll into your background,
because this is a leadershippodcast.
Could you tell me kind of whereyour leadership journey began?

Thomas (02:23):
Could you tell me, kind of, where your leadership
journey began?
Oh, it's a long, sordid tale.
So you know, I've had alifelong relationship with
leadership.
Even when I was, you know,little Thomas, kind of coming up
in the world, leadership wasalways something that was a draw
for me.
When I was in school I wasinvolved in a lot of different
clubs and organizations.
I was usually in some sort ofleadership role.

(02:45):
But even socially, I would sayin my social network, there was
a leadership role that I playedwith my friends and with my
family.
I don't know, sarah, exactlywhat drew me to it.
I just knew that that felt likea comfortable role for me, that

(03:07):
that felt like a comfortablerole for me.
Now I want to caveat heavilyhere and say that being drawn to
something, having a passion forsomething, doesn't equate to
being skilled at something.
Certainly, early days ofleadership for me, even before I
entered into the workplace, itwas a passion but a rough kind
of experience.
When I moved into the corporateworld and found myself in my

(03:29):
first leadership role, it verymuch felt like I was the boss,
right, I'd been given this kindof positional authority.
I always kind of joked, I hadkind of a sheriff's badge and I
wanted people to know I'd pointto it and say, hey, look at me,
I've got this positionalauthority.
And so I was kind of aquintessential boss more than I
was a leader.
That took a lot of years, a lotof learning, a lot of experience

(03:52):
, a lot of failing before Ireally would have said I was an
effective leader.
So maybe a long-winded answer,but it's always been there
leadership with me.
It's been an evolutionaryjourney that has had a lot of
zigs and zags.

Sara (04:08):
Thanks for sharing all that.
I would love to hear more aboutthe boss story because it feels
like there is a pitfall thathappens when we enter into our
first supervisory managerialrole.
So could you dive in a littlebit more about what that boss
looked like and when you hadyour aha moment of changing?

Thomas (04:28):
Yeah, and there really was a moment.
So I and I do think this isinstructive I do like to tell
this tale, sarah, for the samereason that you're suggesting is
that it's not.
Sometimes I think people havethis idea of like they'll move
into a leadership role and thenall will be well with the world,
and yet we've all experiencedbad bosses, so some things
missing.
There there's a gap, and for mepersonally, what happened was I

(04:51):
was a very young supervisor, soI had a small team of people.
I would have been probably 21,22 years old and I had applied
for this job.
I was like many leaders right,the idea of you're doing really
well at what you do and then hadapplied for this job.
I was like many leaders, right,the idea of you're you're doing
really well at what you do, andthen you apply for the job
leading those that do that job.

(05:12):
It's the old what got you herewon't get you there kind of
concept.
So I was, I was particularlygood at the job, and then I
became the supervisor of folksdoing the job and I was a very
self-s this day, a very driven,motivated beat the war drums get
the thing done, and I thinkwhat happened was, when I moved

(05:32):
into that role, I was veryinsistent on everybody matching
me, matching my level of energy,my drive, doing the work that I
the way that I would want to doit.
So my team.
What I learned early on in thatfirst supervisory job was I
could get results from my team.
They just hated me along theway, right, and I think there's

(05:56):
an academic lesson in that,where you know you can see that
out there, where bad bosses arereally authoritative, leaders
can get results.
I think the difference, though,is in that it's short-term
results instead of long-lived.
Certainly, turnover, lowerengagement all of those were

(06:17):
byproducts of my bossiness.
But here's the aha moment.
Right, I was pulled aside bysomebody who was a bit of a
mentor of mine.
They were a little more senior,a little more tenured than me,
and this gentleman pulled measide and had a very tough love
conversation, very starkconversation, where he basically

(06:37):
said do you think your teamlikes working for you?
And my initial response waslike, does it matter?
I mean really that kind of ego.
It's like we're getting results, we're getting things done.
Does it matter if they like me?
And I think in kind of aproto-coaching conversation.
He was really asking mequestions like well, what do you
think would happen if they didrespect you?

(06:59):
What more could you get out ofthem if they did trust you more?
What would it look like if youhad a better relationship with
the people that you work with?
So maybe without knowing it, hewas coaching me in that context
and it did unveil for me amoment of probably not
altogether altruistic.

(07:20):
There probably was a selfishcomponent to me where those
questions opened up for me anavenue to say, hmm, if I did
behave differently I could geteven more and it would make me
look better.
So I don't want to.
You know I'm sounding like amonster, I'm like hoping your
audience will remember I'm 21years old, with too much power,

(07:44):
m-ha-ha.
But I think at the time it wasthe right conversation to at
least open the door for me tounderstand that I could be a
more effective leader if Ipractice some of those
leadership traits.

Sara (07:58):
So I'd be curious you were talking a little bit about
how you're like.
Well, maybe this will helpimprove the productivity of the
team by me implementing.
How did it, did your leadershipstyle evolve as you implemented
some of these different tacticsand did you become more

(08:18):
accepting of that leadershipevolution?

Thomas (08:22):
Yes, let's talk about the tactics.
Let's be precise in some oflike, what did I do differently?
Right, because certainlythere's a different mindset
coming in, where you'reswitching from boss to leader,
perhaps, but the behavior likewhat could you point to that was
different from, you know,21-year-old Thomas to
22-year-old Thomas.
I think it started with tryingto get to know the person behind

(08:45):
the position.
So what I did differently wastry to break down some of those
barriers to I'm the boss, you'rethe employee, and that looked
like asking more questions abouthow they spent their weekend,
who they were spending theirtime with, who and what mattered
most to them, which, from acoaching perspective, I know now
has a lot to do with valueswork.

(09:06):
Didn't have that vocabularythen, but that was really what I
was doing.
I was trying to understandtheir motivations.
Um, and I think it had to dowith a little bit more wiggle
room for the how, and here'swhat I mean by that.
You know, as the leader of theteam, I was still responsible
for setting direction, and thatlooked like, you know, when

(09:29):
something had to be done, whathad to get done.
But what I relinquished was thehow, because I was again a very
driven, control-oriented,task-oriented, leader right, you
know those people.
Leader right, you know thosepeople.
And so I wanted to micromanageright by another name.
I wanted to be very precise inletting people know how to do
the task.
And if they veered off, thenthere was an abrasive

(09:57):
conversation like why didn't youdo it the way that I wanted you
to do it?
So the more evolved version ofme let go of that question of
how I could still be directivein the sense of when things had
to get done and what format theyneeded to be received in, and
then let it go and thatempowered that's a big buzzword,
I know, but it basicallyempowered them to figure that

(10:18):
out on their own.
And then I had to be okay withwhen things came in, not the way
that I would have expected themto, as long as they still got
done in a way that kind of fitthe task.
Then I had to learn to be okaywith that.
There was a lot of growth goingon in those early formative
years from boss to leader.

Sara (10:36):
I was just thinking because you said 21 to 22,.
As a 21 year old, yourprefrontal cortex isn't fully
developed yet either.
So I mean they're saying it'seven later now than 25.
And when it comes to leadingpeople, some I would say the
pitfall that you've talked aboutand kind of the journey that

(10:58):
you've talked about it seemslike it wasn't fast forward,
because you went from, uh, beinga high achiever to becoming a
leader and then you quicklyevolved as a leader and from
what I've seen and heard that Imean that can take 10 years.
So or I mean.

(11:19):
I'm making a broader number, butit's it takes a long time to
evolve into kind of creatingyour own leadership style and
leadership philosophy that worksfor you and is productive.

Thomas (11:30):
Yeah, you know, and it kind of it did take 10 years
there.
I don't want to make myselfsound like a like a wonder kid.
I think the difference is I was, I was heading down a path that
I think was not going to serveme well, both professionally and
from my own values perspective.
I think it was.

(11:50):
You know, the power was goingto my head.
You know this small team oflike six people I had some
authoritative power over.
But I think the difference is,as well as being a very driven
person, I'm a very curiousperson and I think what that
mentor did for me was justunlock my curiosity and asking
those questions Because I thinkit would have been different and

(12:12):
this is, I know, foreshadowingto talking more about coaching.
But had he just told me what Iwas doing wrong and told me to
do things differently, Iprobably would have resisted
that Because again, remember, Iwas getting results.
My team was like would haveresisted that Because again,
remember, I was getting results.
My team was like, top of thescorecard, I was getting it done
.
But I think by him asking thosequestions, it unlocked a path

(12:34):
of curiosity where I can saymaybe there's another way to do
this, something you know to getsuper technical here, but the
Dunning-Kruger effect are youfamiliar?

Sara (12:44):
with.
That Sounds familiar, yeah.

Thomas (12:45):
Essentially boiling it down is that leaders in
particular have this tendency tooverestimate their ability.
Right, and it's based on somework that two psychiatrists,
dunning and Kruger, workedtogether to show that the people
who think that they're the bestat a particular task are
usually not the best at the task.

(13:07):
And so I and I'm.
You know it's like you ask ahundred leaders if you know kind
of where they are on a scale ofone to 10, and they're all like
I'm a nine or a 10.
And we know that law ofaverages say that can't be true,
but yet they feel that way.
And I think, again that versionof myself as a leader, I felt
like I was doing such a good job.

(13:27):
Had someone come and told methat I wasn't, I would have
rooted down, gotten defensive,shown them all the ways they
were wrong and not want it topivot.
But again, I think havingsomeone engender that curiosity
in me let me look for new anddifferent paths.
And so it started rapidly.
I would say that I did make avery fundamental shift and I

(13:49):
think it took all the years tobuild on that.

Sara (13:53):
That's pretty incredible to think about how early the
coaching mindset kind of cameinto play in your career.

Thomas (14:00):
Yeah, yeah.
Without even knowing it, Ididn't have the words right, the
vocabulary wasn't there but itwas there taking root.

Sara (14:06):
Yeah, and there's a lot of you talked about empowerment.
Empowering, I think another keyterm that is getting thrown
around a lot is psychologicalsafety, where it's basically
feeling safe enough to bring upissues that you might have or
ideas that you have forimprovement, which all kind of.
I personally feel like thosefall into a coaching bucket 100%

(14:28):
.

Thomas (14:28):
I mean, you know some of the key tenants of coaching is
seeing people as whole andresourceful, really believing in
because there's there's alittle bit of a faith element to
coaching, where you believethat they have all the answers
that they need.
And and again, this, thissensibility of like them, being
whole people, not just theirwork persona and their, you know

(14:48):
, personal lives, but just beingwhole and complete.
That is the precursor, I think,to psychological safety.
You know that, as a receiver ofthat, knowing that your leader
is looking at you as resourcefuland whole, that they know that
you're more than just theautomaton, the worker bee,

(15:10):
that's the starting point, rightFor trust and being able to
brought ideas or fail and failforward.
I think that's an absolutenecessity for psychological
safety.

Sara (15:22):
Yeah, and it's very true, I think, even now.
So before, without cell phonesand having less access to
internet, you were nine to five,that's it.
And now that we're constantlyavailable, having this whole
person, idea, um andunderstanding that everyone is a
whole person, is even moreimportant, just because we can

(15:45):
be reached and connected to 24hours a day, seven days a week.

Thomas (15:49):
Yeah, I think, sarah, you're spot on.
The technology has definitelyenabled that.
That bleed over between workand home.
Right, you can't say like, well, I can't take it with me now,
it's there waiting for you.
And I think culturally thereare some differences too, in
that you know some of this, evengenerational, that the younger

(16:11):
folks in the workplace todayexpect it of their leaders.
Like I used to say, again withgood intention, when I was in
leadership roles many, manyyears ago, I used to say to my
teams leave your troubles at thedoor, let the workplace be an
oasis, right, just set it down,come in here.

Sara (16:28):
An oasis.
I love that.

Thomas (16:29):
It wasn't.
Yeah right, it's so beautifulthe imagery and yet it wasn't
true then.
It isn't true now.
If you're, you know you've gota kid that's struggling in
school, you're caring for anelder more and you're going
through relationship issues youname it that's coming with you
into the workplace.
So, yes, it's true that now,because of technology, work is
coming into your home.

(16:50):
But your home life was alwayscoming with you into the
workplace and only really in thelast few years, post-covid in
particular, has that been amajor area of focus, for
employers is recognizing that.
But it has made leadershipharder because, again, a younger
version of me leading teams Iwasn't expected to do that, to

(17:12):
be that kind of armchairtherapist for my employees'
problems Today.
I think that's very differentfor leaders, that that's a bit
of an expectation of the job.

Sara (17:22):
And I think the employees expect that of their boss too,
which throws them off guardbecause they're like well, hold
on, do you need a tissue?
I didn't have a box in myoffice and I'm always like I
always have a box of tissues inyour office.
now you become in order forpeople to be their whole selves

(17:42):
and to feel safe.
I mean, I'm reiteratingeverything that we've already
talked about, but you reallyhave to create this environment
so that they can be their wholeselves, their authentic selves,
their whole person, and then youget the full value and
productivity out of that persontoo.

Thomas (17:59):
Yes, right, and I love that last bit.
There is a throughput tobusiness right Because I think
there are some.
There is a throughput tobusiness Right Because I think
there are some leaders thatmaybe a little older school like
me, who just they might feel alittle resistant or ill-equipped
.
It might not be that they don'twant to do it, they just aren't
really sure how Like, is it OKfor me to talk about this?
How do I talk about this?
I don't have the skills.
So, either way, I think thatthe the end line here, the

(18:24):
bottom line right.
The old banker in me is alwayslooking for that bottom line,
the reason to do it.
There are many moral reasons todo it, but the business reason
to do it is you will actuallyget a better work product.
Go figure.
If you create thatpsychological safety, that
engaged environment where yourteam members do feel seen and

(18:45):
safe, they'll give you more.
That's the business reason, ifnot the moral reason to do it.

Sara (18:51):
So true.
So we just touched the surfacelevel of your career so far and
obviously you had a prettyin-depth career at the same
location for a pretty long while.
Can you kind of talk about thatleadership evolution as you
continued in that organization?

Thomas (19:08):
Yeah, actually, you know , kind of stepping off of the
last part of the story, you knowI, you know, from boss to
leader, okay, we'll call thatchapter one.
So you know, chapter two was itworked?
You know, go figure, likegetting to know your team and
trusting them, empowering them,failing forward, like go figure
that some of those skills wouldbe returned, which, by the way,

(19:29):
I mentioned, you know, early on.
I don't know that I did thosechanges completely out of
altruism.
I did think that this couldhelp me differentiate myself as
a distinct and different kind ofleader, and it definitely
worked.
Now, don't get me wrong, Idon't want to paint myself too

(19:49):
bad a picture.
I'm just trying to be very realin the sense that it wasn't
just like my values alarm wasgoing off and I'm like, oh my
God, I can't believe I'mtreating people this way and I
don't want to be that leader.
That's also true.
But the reason I mentioned thatis because I still got results.
I got better results for havingshifted my leadership style and

(20:10):
so I got promoted again and nowI'm leading leaders right, I'm
in a managerial position againat a very young age in this very
big organization and thenquickly thereafter rose to the
ranks of executives and a littlebit of a I don't know if it's a

(20:34):
point of pride or a point ofinterest but I was the youngest
executive in this company'salmost 100 year history.
I was, you know, again, probablyat this point, 26, 27, you know
in an executive role managing,by the way, a multibillion
dollar operation.
Executive role managing, by theway, a multibillion-dollar
operation.
So this was a lot ofresponsibility, both in terms of
the human capital and for theprofit and loss center that I
was running in the hands of a27-year-old.

(20:56):
And I think the reason thathappened again, coaching, right,
I didn't have the language, Ididn't have the vocabulary, but
it was a very coachy leadershipstyle that I was employing and
it worked.
Let me give you again forinstance, just to make this more
real and less abstract.
So I was responsible for acredit card operation.

(21:18):
I was running a credit cardlending shop and at this stage
of my life, at 27, I didn't evenhave a credit card.
I knew nothing about creditcards, nothing, right.
So I remember I was actually ina developmental program for
kind of up and coming leadersand the position had come open,
you know, to be the vicepresident of this shop and

(21:41):
really more out of curiosity, Iapplied for the role, competed
against all the who's who of theorganization.
And I remember, going into theinterview, sarah, the very first
question it was this firingsquad of senior executives and
they asked a very appropriatefirst question what are your

(22:02):
qualifications for this job?
And I'll never forget this Isaid I don't have any.
It just kind of came out of mymouth like in a very extroverted
like.
Did I just say that out loudkind of moment.
I was like I'm not qualifiedfor this job.
And I remember they turned andlooked at each other and this
wasn't really a strategy on mypart.
It's fun to tell the tale andretro, retroactively, but at the

(22:23):
time I was, I'm sure I turnedghost white and you know I was
like what?
What did I just say?
And they're like, okay, tell memore about that.
And I said, listen, I don'tknow anything about this product
.
I've never run a lendingoperation before.
I don't know anything aboutbalance sheets, marketing, all
the rest.
What I do know how to do wasbuild engaged teams.

(22:45):
I know how to createtransformation.
I know how to create the rightkind of climate where we can do
the new and the different and doit well and get results, and I
think that was enough of anintrigue to move on to question
two.
And then, go figure, I ended upgetting the job.
So, from the very first answersI'm not qualified to and I

(23:09):
probably wasn't qualified, butthey gave me the job anyway and
off we went.
So, yeah, that was the nextstage of my career, and I think
I'll land the plane here, atleast if you have more questions
.
I think the next pivotal moment,though, was while I'm running
this multi-billion dollar creditcard operation and responsible
for bringing in all the bucksfor the organization which, by

(23:33):
the way, was over the GreatRecession.
So that was a really interestingtime to be running a business
over that 2008 period.
But what I was doing, withoutknowing it, was building a
reputation for myself as ateacher.
So I had been along my careerpath.
I had been a trainer, aclassroom trainer, I had led a

(23:55):
team of trainers, kind of schoolprincipal, if you will, but
more than that, I think what Iwas doing was cementing for
myself a reputation in theorganization as someone who
coached again didn't have thatlanguage, but I was, you know,
coaching, mentoring, really, byanother name, hundreds of people
, whether that was in largegroup settings.
I would just call all theleaders into a conference room

(24:17):
and talk about a differentleadership topic, invite their
answers in to the conversation,set up book clubs.
I was doing all of this almostas a side gig while I'm supposed
to be focusing in on theselending products.
Eventually, you know, my bosseswere like okay, like we get it.
You know, mr Leader Guy, whydon't you go over and run our

(24:38):
learning and developmentoperation and that was, you know
, almost maybe the halfway pointof my 25-year career there, and
so there was a recognition thatthat was a passion and a
strength of mine helping todevelop other leaders and so

(24:58):
that's what I did, for thesecond half of my career was led
our learning and developmentoperation, which let me really
lean into how we train ourleaders to be better leaders.

Sara (25:08):
Yeah, and to say that you went from I'm not being
qualified to training thetraders and training leaders is
pretty cool to hear about.
I will say I feel like thisproves a point of mine that I'm
very passionate about, where Ioften believe that if you are a
good leader, you can be anywhere.

(25:30):
You can be in IT, you can be ina restaurant, you could be
leading a construction crew.
You don't have to be an expertin your field, you have to be an
expert in leadership, andthat's why I think the military
does well in a lot of differentways, because that's something
that is a theme, and so, while,yes, you might not have been

(25:53):
qualified in that specific area,you knew how to lead teams and
so you could insert yourselfinto that operation and be like
okay, well, leading back to anearlier point about empowering
your team and not worrying aboutthe how you came in I'm
assuming and didn't worry toomuch about the how You're like
what's the goal and how do weget there and what do you person

(26:14):
, team, how do you influencethis specific part?
Go do.

Thomas (26:20):
You have nailed that perfectly, perfectly, and you
know I would say that again,this goes back to curiosity,
right?
Cultivating our curiosity issomething that my passion is
really beating the war drums tohelp leaders be more curious and
surrender the idea of having toknow, because I think again,
like here, I am in thisexecutive role in this example,

(26:42):
and I could have come in with alot of self-doubt.
And you know, talk aboutimposter syndrome.
It was beyond.
You know, the whole idea ofimposter syndrome is you hope
that people won't discover you,right, that you're.
You know that someday they'regoing to the secret is revealed.
Well, I already gave that up,you know, in the literal
interview.
I surely wasn't coming to thisteam of experts and saying, like

(27:04):
I know all this stuff, like Iknow how to run this operation,
they would have seen rightthrough it and I didn't believe
it in the first place.
So it wasn't really impostersyndrome, but it was an
opportunity for me to beentirely curious, just like you
described, when I'd show up to ateam let's say I had, you know,
a card fraud operation right toa team that had you know a card

(27:26):
fraud operation, right, likewhat did I know about neural
network processing, and you knowsecurity and fraud and disputes
, absolutely nothing.
So instead I showed up full ofcuriosity, like you know.
Teach me, tell me, help meunderstand what it is that you
do.
Back to that sentiment ofsurrendering the how.
That wasn't my objectiveanymore.
I could not tell them what todo.

(27:46):
It was more about inviting fromothers that same sense of
curiosity so that we couldcreate something new and
different.
So that again, I think, is sucha critical leadership skill
that's overlooked is curiosity,as not knowing can be an
incredible strength.

Sara (28:05):
In addition to everything that you just spoke of, which
is so important, when people getto talk about what they do and
how they do it, they have asense of pride and authenticity
to what they do, and thatcreates a little bit more sense
of empowerment and autonomy, andthat also helps create more
productivity and space wherepeople do better work.

Thomas (28:26):
By the way, to that point, you know, I'll share this
with your listeners, somethingthat I share with leaders that I
coach today.
It's kind of the three Ps, Icall it, and I don't know if I'm
borrowing this from somebodysomewhere, so I'll have to give
credit to the universe.
But basically it goes like thislike people, processes,

(28:46):
possibilities, and as thisexample goes like.
So here I am in this brand newrole, in this executive role,
and what I had learned by thenagain from the boss, the leader,
chapter one, was to really getto know the people behind the
position.
So the very first thing I did,really in this order, was I
didn't show up at asking a bunchof questions about the

(29:07):
processes.
I showed up and asked themquestions about themselves.
Like you know, hey, jane, tellme a little bit about yourself.
Hey, john, you know where doyou spend your time, how do you
spend your weekends?
They were in many ways readyfor me to hear about the process
.
Right, they're proud of whatthey do, they're experts at what
they do, and I had to like slowthem down a bit.
Like we're going to get to that.

(29:28):
We're going to get to thatRight now.
I just want to know about youand, by the way, a big part of
that vulnerability is sharing abit about myself, so it didn't
sound like an interrogation.
I think sometimes when leaderstalk about being vulnerable with
their teams, it often lookslike letting other people tell
them about themselves and theydon't do the same.

(29:50):
So I was very, very quick toshare a little bit about myself
beyond the workplace, like who Iam, how I spend my time, with
whom I spend my time, invite infrom them.
And then we moved to theprocesses, where it was very
much a discovery process, whereI would ask these wonderful
experts right, that are so proudof what they do, tell me about

(30:11):
what you do and how you do it.
And then we moved into thepossibilities, which was the
opportunities for transformation.
So I like to, you know, sharethat with leaders that I work
with, because I think that orderin my experience has been
really pivotal it's know theperson behind the position,
build trust and then seek tounderstand and then co-create

(30:35):
the new and the different withthose wonderful folks.
It's a brilliant recipe.

Sara (30:40):
Yeah, and it I mean you build a foundation and then you
just grow from there.

Thomas (30:45):
Yeah, and it's, if you said that at the beginning.

Sara (30:50):
it's so much easier to from there on out, but you can
do it at any time.
You can make these changes atany time.

Thomas (31:05):
You know, I often have to remind people when I'm
coaching a leader and they're soquick to want to get to the
possibility stage right, likethey just got the job and they
want to prove, they want tovalidate to the organization, to
their myself I already got thejob right, I'm not interviewing

(31:31):
for this job anymore.
Like I'm in it and I thinkthere's a little bit of a
surrender because it does take alittle more time to get there,
to really pause and get to knowthe people and go through the
discovery process.
I could have started from aplace of like oh well, we need
to change the way that we makethese offers and we need to
change the way that we do thisand just start throwing out

(31:52):
changes.
We know these leaders right,like we know what it's like to
be on the receiving end of that.
It's like you know wheresomeone's going to come in and
tell you that this needs tochange and they haven't stopped
to even ask why you do it in thefirst place and the context and
history you get it.

Sara (32:07):
Yeah, the context and history, you get it.
Yeah, and not to say thatsomething doesn't need to be
changed.
But if you sit back and justwait, you might find the reasons
why they do it the way thatthey do it, and it might not be
something that you thought of.
Like you have to see the fullpicture before you make the
changes, before you have to seeit play into full scope and a

(32:28):
full cycle type thing.
In the military we're alwaystaught like when we enter into a
new role because we switchroles all the time wait 30 days,
Just wait 30 days and set thetone, but also sit back and see
what happens and what theprocesses are in place and then,
after your 30 days, see whatyou want to change.

Thomas (32:51):
That is sage advice.
One of the things I think weforget when we're in a
leadership role is the and thisagain, that's another part of
coaching keeps coming up, butthe emotional undercurrent and
what I mean by that is like withchange management, it's really
about the feelings, and I knowfor me I was an analyst, I'm
very I would describe myself asvery left-brained, and feelings

(33:16):
in the early part of my careerwere not a regular topic of
conversation.
I still sometimes pinch myselfthat now, as a coach, I'm
talking about feelings all day,every day.
But I think, even again,without the language I
understood well enough, that thechange management principles
behind any effort really have todo with feelings.

(33:36):
So making this tangible what Imean by that is like this 30-day
process of like letting it sitand sitting with your team and
not being so quick to makechanges.
More often than not, those folksknow that the thing needs to
change.
You know you think about like aweird example perhaps, but

(33:57):
zooming out and thinking about,you know, bottled water versus
tap water, right, and the reasonwe are so keen on paying
hundreds of times more forbottled water than tap water is
because of how we feel about it.
Like there's been plenty oflike blind tests.
Tap water tastes just as goodas bottled water.
It's just as safe in most partsof the country, but yet we feel

(34:20):
a certain way about it.
Every commercial has smiley,happy people in it where they
could just read you the facts.
Our feelings matter.
So even those people, thoseexperts on the team that know
that a process or procedureneeds to be changed, it's trying
to really help them understandthe feelings behind it so that
they'll be invested in thechange, they'll feel part of the

(34:41):
change, some sense of ownership, and not just feel like
something's being done to them.
Does that make sense?

Sara (34:47):
Oh, for sure, Because when you feel like you're part
of the process and part of thechange itself, it's different
than it happening to you.
You're happening with it.
Yes, Right.

Thomas (34:59):
And this again it's where, like you know, if I'm
coaching a leader, sometimes youknow, in the business
environment, our feelings are,you know, kind of that third
rail.
You don't want to talk aboutthem, you don't want to deal
with them.
And I have to remind leaderssometimes again to that bottom
line effort is you're going toget the change is going to be
better received, you're going toinvite more buy-in and

(35:20):
ultimately get there faster,with less friction, if we can
attend, go figure to theirfeelings, and then the leader
might come around like, okay,all right, the lack we have,
let's talk about our feelings.

Sara (35:32):
Everyone has feelings.
Everyone's human.
Everyone's a person.
Let's just accept that.

Thomas (35:36):
Absolutely.

Sara (35:37):
We've talked a lot about your leadership journey, which I
love hearing about because Ithink it led you to coaching,
which we keep bringing up inlittle spurts.
But how did you transition frombeing an executive to doing
leadership, to training leaders,to coaching?

Thomas (35:55):
Yeah, this is kind of a fun story too.
So again, I think, like my, mypassion for leadership has
always been there.
My passion for coaching hasbeen there too, but a little bit
more covert.
So my introduction to coachingwhen I went to lead our learning
and development operation, wehad some folks on the team in an

(36:18):
organizational developmentcapacity who had some expertise
in coaching.
They had gone to coachingschool.
They brought that into theorganization but it was very.
You know, coaching had a verynegative connotation in the
organization.
The few times that we actuallypulled in an external coach to
work with an executive wasbecause the executive wasn't

(36:40):
doing well, right, and you knowtheir leaders didn't want to
have the kinds of criticalconversations that probably
needed to be had.
So, you know, get our coach,and you know we'll use that as
the salve or the solution forthe problem.
And what that did, you know theconsequences of that was, it
created this kind of connotationwhere nobody would want a coach

(37:03):
, right, like it's like.
Oh, you know Thomas justvolunteered to get a coach.
Oh, he must be on his way out.
There must be a problem, theremust be there must be stagnant
in his career, Right?
So nobody wanted to touchcoaching.
And, um, so I had thiswonderful team of super talented
ODs that had gone to coachingschool and I had gotten to see,

(37:25):
through them coaching me, somereally cool examples of the
power of coaching.
And the strategy to shift gearswas to go to my most senior
leaders the CEO and COO of theorganization and offer them up a
coach.
Now, this was an external coach, right?
Because you know it's going tobe easier to bring somebody in

(37:46):
who wasn't associated with theorganization.
And so we did that and a fewother senior leaders, because I
knew a little bit of faith herethat they were going to have an
amazing experience.
Oftentimes, as you know, Sarah,the coaching especially in the
past coaching was really onlyoffered at those levels because
of the price tag.

(38:08):
But also, when you get to thatlevel, when you're the CEO or
the CEO or the CFO or anybody inthe C-suite, a traditional
leadership development offeringis usually not what they're
after, right?
They already know how to do thejob.
They're top of their game.
Coaching, of course, offered upsomething completely different
where it was, but likewise theyalso veered away from therapy or

(38:31):
anything that seemed liketherapy because, again, the
stigma associated with it.
So this was a little bit of across-pollinization.
There was a developmentalaspect, a therapeutic aspect,
personalized to what they needat that time, and so of course,
they were going to love it, andthey did.
They absolutely loved it, andthat did two things for me.
One, it helped to embolden myplans for coaching within the

(38:53):
organization in terms of fundingand planning.
But it also changed theparadigm where now I could point
to those experiences with theirpermission and say, hey, look,
they got a coach.
And don't you believe that?
All the other executives arelike, how did I get a coach?
They changed the entire game.
And so from there I startedworking on building out coaching

(39:15):
at multiple levels in theorganization and, to bring it
back into my experience withcoaching, I got curious.
Again, this theme of curiositykeeps coming up.
I wanted to learn more about it.
I was surrounded by it at thispoint within my team and some
external folks that I wasworking with, and I decided I'm
going to go to school, I'm goingto go take myself to coaching

(39:38):
school.
And I had done you know, beingin that learning and development
space a lot of the otherpsychometric assessments, EQ and
the BPI and DISC, et cetera, etcetera, et cetera.
So that wasn't so different forme the idea of me taking myself
to school to learn about aproduct or a service that we
offered it made me a betteradvocate.

(39:58):
But coaching was different.
It was transformative.
It completely changed mytrajectory, both in life and at
work, and set me on a completelydifferent path.
But yeah, that was how I gotintroduced to coaching and what

(40:18):
I did to help make it a realityin my organization.

Sara (40:22):
And what did you notice after coaching got more
integrated in the organization?

Thomas (40:28):
I think the biggest changes were the shift from
telling to asking.
That was what manifestedquickly, right and I see this
even today with leaders that Iwork with when I'm teaching
these coaching skills to otherleaders that you know leaders
are problem solvers.
They're paid to solve problems,right.

(40:48):
So every problem in search of asolution comes their way and
they feel a responsibility toprovide that answer.
And we know that that comeswith some level of decision
fatigue.
Right, when you're being askedquestions all day long, you
think about this.
Sarah, you get home after along day of answering

(41:09):
everybody's questions.

Sara (41:10):
What do you want for?

Thomas (41:11):
dinner.
Yes, exactly what do you wantfor dinner?
Oh my God, not one morequestion, I don't care.

Sara (41:16):
Just tell me what I'm having.

Thomas (41:19):
You got it, you got it.
It wears you down, it does so.
I think you know the number onechallenge that people have with
coaching as a skill is learningto resist the urge to give
advice, to solve problems viafilling out answers.
You're still solving problems,by the way.
You still get to do that.

(41:40):
You're just doing it through aninterrogative process, by
asking questions and, again,believing in the people that you
work with to come up withviable solutions.
But that was probably thebiggest change, I think, and
I'll add to it.
Let me add also this sense ofthe whole person.
That was also a huge shift, Ithink, organizationally.

(42:04):
And again, the pandemic helpedbring some of this about, this
idea of like you know we are oneperson and that we're more
integrated than we'd like tobelieve, or even a spouse.
So I think that was anotherhuge benefit of introducing
coaching, because you canimagine even the receiving end
of coaching.
Those leaders that were beingcoached found themselves able to

(42:28):
talk about their personal livesin a way.
Again it wasn't quite therapy,even if it's therapeutic, but in
a way that was like wow, I cansee how I can lead my teams
better if I feel better aboutmyself personally, be it
physically, spiritually,financially, any of those
dimensions of wellness andwell-being.

(42:48):
Wellbeing go figure, and so Ithink that had a ripple effect
throughout the organization.

Sara (42:53):
It's interesting that you bring that up, because there's
an organization I'm part ofright now where we talk a lot
Empowered Women Empower Women.
But in the same sense,empowered Leaders Empower
Leaders because it's you see,the experience that you have,
and you see the situations andyou it's usually a very similar

(43:15):
situation that people arestruggling with a similar
obstacle.
And so when you yourself, as aleader, have encountered that
obstacle before, you can see itin another person and be like oh
, I see that they're reallyoverwhelmed at home.
Oh, I can see that this projecthas a lot of steps and they're
very just overwhelmed with theamount of steps that it has and
doesn't don't know where tostart.

(43:35):
It doesn't know where it'sgoing to make the most impact.
And so when you go through thatexperience, and maybe what I'm
coming to is like, as a leader,the reason you're leading is
because you have that experience, and so now you can kind of
guide those people while you'releading through empowerment.

Thomas (43:53):
Go figure right, it's absolutely.
I think that's a great exampleof how, if you've experienced it
for yourself, you're much morelikely to see it in others and
want that for others.
I think that's true.

Sara (44:05):
And it's the self awareness that coaching brings,
because everyone goes throughall the things, but coaching
brings that self-awareness thatyou weren't even there, like you
completely level up.

Thomas (44:14):
Oh my God, right, you know it's.
It's funny, you know, when,either teaching coaching or
talking to a leader in acoaching context, we of course
start with self-awareness andthere's, I think, a natural
resistance to this idea thatthey're not self-aware, right?
They're like.
Well, I've been me for 47 years.

(44:35):
Who knows me better than me?
I am plenty self-aware.
And then, through coaching, youdiscover blind spots that you
didn't know were there.
Context about the narrative.
You know the story you've beentelling others and yourself
about yourself for all theseyears.
Maybe isn't quite what youthink it is.
Maybe you're just so quick tothrow the headlines out that you

(44:56):
missed the bylines.
There's such great work in thecoaching space for building
self-awareness and sometimesthose folks that feel like
they've got more of it aresurprised to find how much more
there is to know, which is abeautiful process to watch.

Sara (45:16):
It leans back into your curiosity theme, being curious
about what that might.
You might be leaning intoAbsolutely your work throughout
corporate and training theleaders and coaching and
creating this coaching team.
What would you say?

Thomas (45:32):
some of the common gaps were that you encountered or
maybe you're the coaches thatyou led encountered- you know,
one of the things that thatsurprised me, I think yeah, I
gotta use that word I was.
I was taken aback, for surewhen I was coaching these
leaders, that how muchloneliness showed up in those

(45:55):
conversations.
So you know, this was years agobefore.
You know, our prior surgeongeneral declared, you know, the
loneliness epidemic, which Ifound fascinating, and there's
been a lot of great work on somesocial science about loneliness
today and all the repercussionsof it.
But early days of my coachingexperience I started hearing

(46:18):
that word come up from peoplethat I didn't expect it from.
These were people who wereleading large teams, you know.
So they were certainlysurrounded by plenty of others.
They were often married orpartnered, kids, the whole
social network.
And yet there was this sense ofdisconnectedness which you know

(46:39):
.
We mentioned technology earlier.
You know there's an obviouskind of paradox that we're more
connected now than ever throughsocial media, fast travel,
connected now than ever throughsocial media, fast travel and
yet more and more people werefinding themselves lonely and in
the workplace I think what theydid was there was this lack of

(47:00):
connection.
They weren't sure how toconnect with people in a very
meaningful way and I thinkthrough coaching.
There was a lot of explorationabout, like, how to get past
that a lot of social anxiety,vulnerability issues and when
you saw a leader get to theother side of that, where they

(47:20):
got closer to more meaningfulrelationships, what that did to
unlock their leadershippotential was just a beautiful
thing to witness.

Sara (47:28):
That's interesting.
What do you think thecorrelation between loneliness
and experiencing connectednessis to leadership?

Thomas (47:36):
I think, at the end of the day, leadership is about
relating right.
It's relating to the peoplearound you yes, your teams, but
also your peers, to yourcustomers, your clients.
I mean you pick it.
It's about making connectionswith others and I think when
you're feeling like you can't dothat effectively whether that's
a, you know again, some sort oflimiting belief about yourself

(47:59):
or about your environment, whereyou lock that part of yourself
away it, I think, makes leadingothers hard.
Harder.
It's friction, where they justdon't know how to connect with
someone in a way that's going tobe fruitful.

Sara (48:16):
And I guess that relates back to what we were talking
about earlier when you want totalk to the person and learn
about people, when you're ableto be vulnerable and make that
connection that reduces theamount of loneliness that you
have.

Thomas (48:32):
Yeah, you know there's.
There's a um, a model that Ilike.
Um that I I work with a lot ofleaders and I mentioned earlier,
like social anxiety, limitingbeliefs, um, self-fulfilling
prophecies.
I've tried this before.
It didn't work.
So there's a particular modelthat I like.
It's from um, uh, tommySpalding's book.
It's not just who you know, Ithink it's the name of the book

(48:53):
and it's the five floors ofconnectedness.
And basically, quickly,succinctly, it goes like this
Like the first floor is thetransaction, right, it's seeing
somebody in the hallway, sayinghi, making eye contact, and of
course we're not in hallways asoften as we used to be, so those
transactional relationshipsdon't appear as often as they
used to, but they're meaningful,they're important.

(49:16):
You know, the second floor issomething a little bit more like
water cooler.
Talk back in the day.
You talk about the news, theweather, sports, maybe not the
news these days that's a littlepolarizing, but anybody can talk
about the weather.
Right, it's so hot out there.
Oh, that rain will it ever end?
Level three is a little morecollegial.
That might be where you startasking about your weekend.
How was your weekend?
You know, just take the kids tothe movies.
You know something a little bitsafe.

(49:37):
You're still not sharing deeppersonal truths, but more.
And then, quickly, level fouris friendship.
You'd be friends with thatperson whether you worked at the
organization or not.
You can share, you know,opposing beliefs and thoughts
and not terminate therelationship.
And then level five is thepinnacle, where you're reserved
for your spouse, your partner,your kids, maybe a best friend

(50:00):
or two, right?
So the reason I bring this upis for people who are struggling
to make connection and theyjust don't know where to start.
A model like that can behelpful because you can start
from the bottom.
Most relationships tend to beevolutionary in nature, right,
you know, aside from a rom-com,meet cute.
You don't generally go fromlike level one to level five.

(50:22):
Right, takes time, but this wayyou can, you know, help people
understand that.
Like, start off with, like youknow, you see this person in the
office, make some eye contact,say hello, how are you?
Then?
Start commenting on the weather, and then maybe you start
asking about, like you know,their Netflix binge habits and
then maybe eventually yougraduate to spending time on the

(50:42):
weekend.
So, you know, trying to takethis out of the abstract, this
idea of like okay, you're lonelyand you're feeling disconnected
.
What do you do about it?
Helping through coaching,through curiosity, helping them
figure out a way for themselvesto move from here to there.

Sara (50:58):
Yeah, and the key is, I think, to not doom scroll Like
social media.
Might be social in it, but letme tell you it doesn't create
connection whatsoever.

Thomas (51:09):
Nope, we'll be unpacking that for generations to come,
won't we Right?

Sara (51:15):
Okay, so let's switch a little bit and go into, kind of
we talked a little bit aboutloneliness and how to build
connection.
Is connected this and buildingthose relationships and
self-awareness what kind ofrelate into personal wellbeing
and creating that world?
What role would you say thatwellbeing and personal growth

(51:36):
play into a leader's overalleffectiveness?

Thomas (51:42):
I think it's.
There's a huge correlationbetween being well and being an
effective leader.
I think, again, the pandemic todraw on that is really helping
people understand that, whetherit's your own mental health,
this is oxygen mask, right?
So you know, I love to use thatkind of imagery with the

(52:05):
leaders that I coach, where I'mlike okay, you know, you have to
put the oxygen mask on first sothat you can take care of
others.
Most leaders that I know that Iwork with are in that position
because they like taking care ofothers.
It's some form of nourishingthe tribe, right?
And I'm not surprised that mostleaders I know are really good

(52:26):
at taking care of their families, taking care of their community
, taking care of their customersand their teams.
You're taking care of a wholelot of people and generally they
put themselves last on thatlist.
So part of my work is helping toconvince them.
It's again back to this kind oflike bottom line.
You know, return on investment.

(52:47):
If you will spend more timeinvesting in your own wellness
and wellbeing, you will havemore energy to give to your
partner, your company, yourcommunity, your friends and
everybody else in your orbit.
So I think it has an oversizedimpact on leadership
effectiveness, but I thinkthat's a relatively new.

(53:07):
I think it's always been true,but I think we're understanding
it better now, more I mean, someof the themes that you're
hearing are burnout is on therise higher than ever.

(53:28):
You know the jobresponsibilities of a leader
today.
We already mentioned a few.
It's like the armchairtherapist there's new and
different elements of leadingtoday.
Leadership has always been hardwork, work that matters, but
it's been hard and the leaderstoday have it much harder still
having to manage remotely, makethese kinds of connections

(53:50):
through a virtual medium,managing that whole person
sensibility, creating apsychologically safe place to
work, et cetera, et cetera.

Sara (53:59):
It's not about just doing the job anymore.
It's not about just checkingout things, getting the stack
smaller.

Thomas (54:03):
It's not that it really things getting the stack smaller
, like it's not that.
It really isn't.

Sara (54:07):
When it comes to well-being and the people that
you coach.
Is there a cue or somethingthat you notice of somebody who
might be close to burnout?

Thomas (54:18):
You know, I think it's kind of a perpetual question for
me.
I think most are of a perpetualquestion for me, I think most
are.
So I think I probably go inwith a little bit of an
assumption mixed with somecuriosity.
So one of the things I do withall of the leaders that I coach
is some sort of wellness checkand that could be a wellness
wheel where you know andsometimes this surprises them

(54:40):
again because they may come tome with a very in their mind, a
very distinct, defined challengethat they're facing right, like
I want to get promoted and I'mlike great, let's get to that
after we do this wellness wheel.
And so there's sometimes alittle bit of a like wait, why
are we talking about myspiritual or financial wellness
when I'm really wanting to getpromoted?

(55:01):
And so you know, I'll try towade into those waters
sensitively and with somecompassion and help them
understand again that oxygenmask metaphor of yes, believe it
or not, if you're feeling wellin these dimensions, you are
more likely to present yourselfin a way that is more likely to

(55:22):
get promoted or to findfulfillment in other areas of
your life.
So I think just to answer morebluntly, I think it's there for
everybody in some degree.
It's just a matter you knowlike.
Today it's burnout, but foryears prior to that it was
work-life balance, thisnever-ending quest that we were

(55:42):
on by a different name.
I think most leaders have tofind the way to integrate both
parts of their life in a waythat feels satisfactory to them.

Sara (55:53):
That's true.
I also have heard about thework-life integration too, where
it's like it's not aboutwork-life balance, it's
work-life integration.
We talked about technologyearlier.
We're constantly being reachedout to have constant connection.
How do you put your phone downand just kind of be the other
thing that is interesting tohear.

(56:13):
I love that you do a whole, awhole picture of your clients,
because it's interesting to seethat maybe it's not that you're
like I want to be promoted, butdid you know that actually
here's some aspects that mighthelp improve your whole life and
go forward with promotion?
So it's interesting to hearthat Also.

(56:34):
The last thing I want tomention is for regards to this
is when the people that you leadsee that you are working on
your full self, they will alsowork on their full self, and
that is such a good consequenceresult of the work that you're
doing as a leader.

Thomas (56:53):
Right.
Oftentimes, these same leadersthat bulked at the assignment at
first blush will take that backto their teams and they'll find
themselves asking their teammembers about their wellness,
their overall levels ofwellbeing.
And I'm just, you know, Icouldn't be a more proud pop.
I'm like, yeah right, go figure.

Sara (57:13):
This is a perfect, perfect transition into coaching
the leaders and teaching themhow to coach.
Do you want to dive into alittle bit of that?

Thomas (57:21):
Yeah, let's do that.
You know, certainlyling back tokind of my career journey.
Where I left off was I wasleading or learning and
development operation, right,and I had done that for 10 or
more years and then anotheropportunity came my way.
You know, this is maybe anexample of manifestation, right,
about how some of these thingslike even finding my way into

(57:42):
the learning and development ifyou remember from my story, it's
because I was kind of alreadydoing it for the organization as
like I don't know gig work andothers around me recognized it
and said, hey, why don't you goover to learning and development
and lead that operation?
So I did that for 10 years andI had, during that time, gone to
coaching school and come outthe other side of the change and

(58:05):
I really doubled down onmentoring by another name, right
, and there is a distinction, ofcourse, between mentoring and
coaching, but I think I wasdoing coaching under the guise
of a mentorship, right.
So people would seek me outbecause of you know where I was
on an org chart and then findthemselves in the coachee seat,

(58:26):
you know, with my newfoundcoaching powers.
Yeah, all to say, that I had,you know, at any time I probably
had dozens of people that I wasmentoring, and this again was
while I was leading a learningand development operation.
So I don't know how I got awayall these years doing all this
side work.
You know not the stuff that wason my job description, but
there you go.

(58:46):
So I had built a reputation formyself as a coach and so some
new leadership had come in andthey had seen for themselves the
power of having an internalcoaching presence, a really
strong internal coachingpresence.
So the offer came across mydesk Would you like to go and
start up our coaching operationand be the vice president of

(59:08):
talent coaching?
So I kind of aside fromlearning and development, kind
of adjacent to it, and startedour very first ever internal
coaching wing.
And when I took on thatresponsibility it was kind of a
sandbox.
It's like, ok, congratulations.
And when I took on thatresponsibility, it was kind of a
sandbox.
It's like, okay,congratulations, you're now our

(59:30):
first fully dedicated internalcoach.
Go right, go do something.
Coach the people, teach thepeople, whatever.
And I realized quickly thatthere was one of me and 20,000
of them, and so the idea of mecoaching individually one-on-one
, which was an element of it.
I did do one-on-one coaching,but I could only do so many of
those, and so really I hadbecome a bit of an evangelist

(59:53):
about coaching as a skill,having gone to coaching school
myself, that I wanted to bringthis to the masses.
So I developed a programLeaders as Coaches internal to
the organization and phoned afew friends by other executives
around the organization to seeif anybody would be interested,
and before you know it, we hadhundreds of people come through

(01:00:16):
this program hundreds and theidea was not necessarily to turn
them into coaches, right,because I always say coaching is
a skill, coaching is a mindsetand coaching is a job.
So what I was offering is twoof the three of those, right, so
come into a program we.
Basically.
The program was a six-monthcohort program where I taught

(01:00:37):
them how to be better coaches,because we're also not starting
from zero, right, most, if notall, leaders already coach, they
already ask questions, theyalready listen deeply, they
already exercise some empathy.
So this was a matter ofelevating their coaching skills
to move them closer to askinginstead of telling, and it was

(01:00:59):
such a huge success.
The participants came out theother side feeling that they
were more effective atleadership at large and were
able to apply their coachingskills in their workplace.
I was just overwhelmed with allthe testimonials that kind of
came from the experience.

(01:01:19):
But I think one of the coolthings was a little anecdote was
how much it was helping them intheir personal lives.
Of cool things was a littleanecdote was how much it was
helping them in their personallives.
I mean, of course you knowwe're being paid to do this.
That's the you know the reasonwhy we're there.
But oh, like the, uh, this, thesense of like I'm, uh, I was
able to have a betterrelationship with my kids
because of this coaching skill,to relate better to my partner,

(01:01:42):
my parents.
Um, it's a life skill, right?
I mean, of course it's going tohelp you in the workplace, but
it's really great when you cansee them coaching themselves,
trying to figure out what is andis not in their control.
Just beautiful work.
So that ultimately led me Sarah.
After two years of doing thatwork, I decided to take the show

(01:02:03):
on the road.
After a 25-year career, Iretired from that organization
and struck out on my own, andnow what I'm doing today is
traveling around the countryteaching leaders how to coach.
So that's become not just mypassion, but my purpose.

Sara (01:02:19):
Yeah, so it's interesting how curiosity has led you all
the way around to help otherpeople become curious.

Thomas (01:02:27):
I love it Right.

Sara (01:02:29):
Brilliant.
So if you were to give and thismight be a hard question to
answer, so let me know but ifyou were to give kind of the top
level for folks that arelistening, um, in what would be
the top things that you wouldrecommend them embrace as a
leader who wants to embracecoaching, or a leader as a coach

(01:02:50):
?

Thomas (01:02:51):
Let's stick with the theme of curiosity, right,
because the best coaches are thecurious coaches they really are
.
You know, sometimes the idea isbeing comfortable, not knowing.
You know, coming into anysituation, even situations where
you are the subject matterexpert of really coming in with
a beginner's mindset andstriving to understand another

(01:03:13):
person's perspective a newopportunity.
It is so freeing when you canreally adopt that mindset where
you don't have to have all theanswers, even when you think you
do that, you can question yourown thinking, challenge your own
rationality, because you knowbetter people than me have
explained that we want to beright more than we want to be

(01:03:35):
happy.
So as soon as we have an idea,we want to lock into it, defend
it to the hilt, and I think thebest advice I can give to
someone who really is interestedin seeking out that kind of
coaching mindset or adoptingcoaching skills is to get
curious.
That is the best thing you cando for yourself and it will show

(01:03:56):
up, you know.
Because, getting back tobehaviors, what does that look
like?
That's a very coachy thing tosay, but what it means is you're
going to listen moreeffectively, you know.
You're going to ask bettereffectively.
You're going to ask betterquestions.
You're going to be attuned totheir body language.
You're going to learn to tapinto your intuition right.
All these wonderful coach skillsmay manifest through different

(01:04:16):
behaviors and instead of dolingout answers right away, you know
I have to remind leaders too.
It's not like you can nevergive an answer.
I would never say that.
It's just that usually that'sour starting point and all I'm
suggesting is, behaviorally,that becomes the second thing or
the third thing.
You do Start with a questionand then find your way.

(01:04:37):
If the questions aren't leadingto good answers, then maybe
offer up an answer of your own,but don't start there.
So I think you know, justtaking it out of the abstract,
like what does curiosity looklike in that setting?
Asking better questions, beinga better listener, trusting your
instincts and your intuition,you will show up differently,

(01:04:59):
and I think that's wonderful.

Sara (01:05:02):
And I've often heard that we listen to respond instead of
listening to understand.
So embracing that with thecuriosity mindset that you just
spoke of can do wonders, because, again, we do always want to be
right.
I mean, I'm always right, Iknow Exactly, yeah, exactly.

Thomas (01:05:25):
But if we embrace it, I'll tell you here's the thing
that I always my favoritecoaching question right.
So I get paid to ask questionsall the live long day and I've
got all the questions.
Here's my favorite one and Ioffer this up to any of your
listeners One of the mostpowerful questions you can ask
yourself and others.

(01:05:46):
Three words is it true?
And that T needs to be capitalT true, objectively true?
Because what often happens, youknow, in the sense of like
always needing to be right, isyou may have a thought, that
might be.
You know, I'm not credentialedenough for this job, so I won't
bother applying for it.
I'm not ready for this new job,so I won't bother applying for
it.
I'm not ready for this newrelationship, so I won't bother.

(01:06:09):
It's just checking yourself andasking yourself is it true?
Is it capital T true?
And if it isn't, then explorethat a little bit, be curious.
What are you making it mean?
How can you test for evidenceof this thing?
How can you seek clarification?
You know so those three wordsfor me have been life-changing

(01:06:31):
and I think for a lot of theleaders that I've taught this
skill to, it can reallyilluminate when you are just
clutching onto a truth thatisn't necessarily objectively
true, right.

Sara (01:06:42):
I, as you're saying that, I'm like, oh, all these moments
that I had where I unknowinglyasked myself that, and one of
them was when I was leading ateam we had in the military
physical training.
They're offered up certain anumber of hours and I went in
and this team needed to be fixedand I just knew it and I was

(01:07:02):
like they're not going to get PTtime right now.
It was, I was being stern, Iwas like they need to earn it
back and I was like do they?
Do they actually need to earnit back?
Like also, that's not myleadership style, like I'm not a
like you see me, I'm not like ahard hitting type of leader
here, like you do everythingexactly as I say.
But unintentionally I asked thatquestion and I was like screw

(01:07:25):
this, I'm going to do it the wayI want to do it.
And everyone obviously reallyliked having their PT time back.
But also it felt more true tome and there was no reason that
I could had to hold that timeback.
It was just a perception, aleadership thing that the
military has where it's like bestern, be disciplined.
In that instance, nothing hadrelated to PT, so might as well

(01:07:50):
have them give it back and havethem feel good about themselves
while doing their work.

Thomas (01:07:56):
And it felt more congruous with your leadership
style, with your values.
But you know, sarah, again youcan imagine like how many times
we, especially in the military,where you're adopting a new team
, you know we very rarely, Iimagine, you get to build them
from the ground up.
So, coming in with some sort ofpreconceived notion, or someone
tells you their truth about theexperience and you adopt it.
I had you in that circumstance,just like clung onto that

(01:08:18):
thought because it was yoursright.
So it must be precious becauseyou generate it.
You know, scientists think wehave something like 60,000
thoughts a day.
That's a lot and I don't knowabout you, but I know for me
most of those thoughts areeither objectively not true or
definitely not in service of me,Some of the self-talk that just
kind of generates in my mind.

(01:08:39):
So that question can be asafeguard against that of
holding on too tight to athought that isn't in service of
you.

Sara (01:08:48):
It gives you a chance to pause.

Thomas (01:08:49):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sara (01:08:52):
So where are you today?
What are you spending your time?
What's your mission now thatyou're kind of in this lead as a
coach space?

Thomas (01:09:02):
Yeah, you know I mean living the dream, sarah, as a
coach space.
Yeah, you know, I mean livingthe dream, sarah.
I am fortunate right now to beworking with organizations again
all around the country where Icome in to work with teams of
leaders to teach them coachingskills, to help enhance their
coaching skills.
What I'm really excited about,though, is any day now we're
launching our Leaders as Coachesonline program, because up

(01:09:24):
until now, I mean, there's justone of me, so I can only be in
so many places at once, and I'vehad a lot of interest and
demand from folks that want tolearn more about coaching as a
skill.
You know go and you know thisyourself going to coaching
school is very expensive.
I mean it can cost upwards of$10,000.
It can take a year or more tocomplete.

(01:09:45):
It's a really rigorousadventure, and that makes sense
for some if they are intendingto be a coach or to use coaching
as a part of their profession.
To this experience, this onlineversion is going to open up for

(01:10:08):
folks the ability toparticipate in that learning and
be part of this community, andso that's launching any day now.
I'm so excited to be able totake this work I mean I'm like
an evangelist for all things.
Coaching now and to really putthat out into the world where
anybody could take advantage ofthat.
That's what I'm up to thesedays.

Sara (01:10:31):
Well, congratulations.
I'm excited to see it out andlive in the world and I
completely agree afterexperiencing coaching myself and
seeing how it transforms me,some peers, the community that
I've built, coaching really is askill that can help enhance not
only your leadership but reallyyour whole life, and it's only
beneficial to you and the peoplethat surround you Got it, you

(01:10:53):
got it.

Thomas (01:10:53):
That's again the thing that brings me so much joy.
Of course I love, you know,being a little bit of an
antidote for the workplace,those bosses because, remember,
I've been one that bossy boss,right, I think coaching can
definitely be, that it can help.
We spend so much of our livesat work, and so making sure that
leaders are better equipped tobe there for their teams is

(01:11:18):
passionate enough.
But I really love the idea thatthis, like you, like me, the
coaching skill and the coachingmindset can help us in our
personal life, because I think abig theme of our conversation
today is just how integratedthose two are anyway.
And so when you can see theworld through our coaching lens,
you, just you tend to be moreempathetic towards others.

(01:11:40):
You know, go figure, a betterlistener, you know someone who
is a more curious person.
Those same skills that help somuch in the workplace are
wonderful for the rest of ourworld.
I think our world needs alittle more of that right now.
Right, nobody needs a coach.
I think you need oxygen, youneed food, but I think everybody
deserves one.

Sara (01:12:01):
Yes, I completely agree, and something I do want to
mention is we've talked a lotabout leaders leading their
teams, but very rarely will younot have somebody also leading
you, and having those coachingskills is so critical to
understand your leader, tounderstand their perspective and

(01:12:25):
where they're coming from.
Those coaching skills aredirectly translatable not just
you yourself being in aleadership role, but working
with those that might lead you.

Thomas (01:12:35):
So true, Sarah.
I mean, managing up is a toughskill anyway, right, but we all
have bosses, and so the idea ofbeing able to really seek their
perspective, to understand wherethey're coming from, to again
be curious, ask better questionsyour peer group too right, it
goes the whole 360, interactingwith your peers in a more

(01:12:56):
productive, profound way.

Sara (01:12:58):
These coaching skills know no bounds Great, Well, I do
want to ask really quick, as wecome to a close, if there is
one piece of wisdom, of advice,of leadership, that you could
offer anyone, anyone who'sleading, managing up, what would
that be?

Thomas (01:13:19):
Be kind.

Sara (01:13:20):
That's a good one.

Thomas (01:13:23):
Be kind, just be nice.
It's easy, it's free, itdoesn't take a lot of effort.
You know, environmentally,right now again, there's just a
lot of angst in our world.
A lot of folks stress out,uncertainty is high, volatility,
all the rest, and I think youknow, looking back on my own
leadership journey, the thingthat you know, the value, the

(01:13:47):
skill even that really camethrough, was being a kind person
, the kind of person that youknow wants to.
You know, we talk a lot aboutservant leadership today as a
kind of a buzzword and I like it, the sensibility of just being
there for others.
Be nice, be kind, treat otherswell, even if they don't treat
you well.
I mean, you know, it's a matterof how, choosing to show up in

(01:14:11):
a way that is in alignment withyour values.
I think the world needs morekindness.

Sara (01:14:16):
I agree, especially right now.
Especially so, where can ourlisteners find out more about
you?

Thomas (01:14:23):
Ooh, they can find me at thomasgriecoachingcom, and on
thomasgriecoachingcom you'llfind all the information you
need about our Leaders asCoaches program and how you can
enroll and learn these valuablecoaching skills.

Sara (01:14:37):
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, as
always, loving our conversations.
Definitely, it's great to bepart of this coaching community
and get to chat with lovelypeople like you and learn more
about leadership, coaching andall of those things.
So thank you again for comingon the show.

Thomas (01:14:54):
Thank you, Sarah.
Thank you for all you're doingto help leaders along their path
and live and lead better.
I appreciate you.

Sara (01:15:03):
Thanks for listening to another episode of Lead Into it.
If you enjoyed this episode, itwould mean a lot to me if you
would leave a review on ApplePodcasts or Spotify to help
future listeners.
If you want to learn more aboutthe podcast or me, go to
leadintoitco.
That's leadintoitco.
Thanks again.