May 4, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode of Lead The Standard, Kelly Taylor and Jackie Stapleton discuss the challenges and best practices for auditing ISO 14001:2015. Using a plumbing analogy to simplify concepts, they provide insights on where to start, what questions to ask, and how to make sense of the environmental management system (EMS) standard in a real business context. Emphasizing a conversational approach over formal interrogation, they walk through five key areas: context, environmental aspects, compliance, operations, and performance evaluation. Throughout the discussion, they highlight the importance of curiosity and practical understanding to generate the best audit outcomes.
Notable timestamps:
• 00:00 Introduction to EMS Audits
• 00:25 Meet the Hosts and Episode Setup
• 00:39 Addressing Technical Issues and Episode Delay
• 01:42 Overcoming the Overwhelm of ISO 14001 Audits
• 03:31 The Plumbing Analogy for EMS Audits
• 07:25 Introducing the EMS Flow Check Model
• 10:18 Key Areas of the EMS Flow Check: Context
• 14:34 Key Areas of the EMS Flow Check: Environmental Aspects
• 20:39 Key Areas of the EMS Flow Check: Compliance
• 21:41 Understanding Legal and Other Requirements
• 22:16 Tracking and Reviewing Compliance
• 22:38 The Water Filter Analogy
• 23:52 Softening the Conversation
• 24:53 Key Areas in EMS Flow Check
• 25:41 Operations: Implementing Strategies
• 30:16 Performance Evaluation: Turning the Tap
• 35:31 Recap and Final Thoughts
• 40:34 Closing Remarks and Next Episode Preview
Links we promised:
• Check out this episode LTS 2015.14 “Get Clause 6.1.2 Environmental Aspects Right or Nothing Else Works – ISO 14001:2015: https://open.spotify.com/episode/22sJGwFfEIJyaz2QQqBV45?si=Ex1yUqsnRoqagzpfqgRung
• Read the LTS Article: https://blog.auditortrainingonline.com/lead-the-standard/2025-16
• ATOL: https://auditortrainingonline.com/
• Connect with Jackie:
o https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackiestapleton/
o https://jackiestapleton.com/
o Jackies Book is coming register for pre-sale now….https://jackiestapleton.myflodesk.com/leadthestandardbook
• Connect with Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellytaylor-au/
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While every effort is made to ensure the accuracy and currency of the information shared, including references to ISO standards and related clauses, this content should not be considered definitive legal, regulatory, or professional advice. Listeners should always consult with a qualified professional for advice tailored to their specific business context or compliance obligations.
Unless otherwise stated, all information relating to ISO standards, including clause references and revision details, is based on the version of the standard current at the time of recording and publication. As standards are periodically reviewed and updated, we encourage listeners to confirm the latest version applicable to their needs.
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© Auditor Training Online Pty Ltd 2025. All Rights Reserved | www.auditortrainingonline.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
When you're handed your first EMS audits, it's a little bit
like being asked to find a leak in the house that you've never
lived in before. You've got the checklist, you've
got the training, maybe even theexperience, but the question
still hangs in the air, where doI even start with ISO 14,000 and
one? So let's talk about auditing ISO
(00:21):
14,000 and One 2015 and where tostart and what to ask.
Welcome to leading the standard.Hi, I'm Kelly Taylor, thank you
for joining us for yet another episode of Leisure Standard.
As always, I am here with the lovely and one and only Jackie
Stapleton. And we're getting a little, we
(00:44):
are a little bit late with this week's episode, but I promise
it's not our fault. We have previously identified
some external influences that decided not to save last week's
recording. So we are here again for take
Two and we are hoping that that doesn't happen again.
So hi, Jackie. Hello, Yeah, I'm hoping, yeah,
not not another like not a repeat of last week.
(01:07):
So cross fingers on my Internet stability today, but the the
likelihood based on based on yesterday's events is is still
quite high. So let's just give it a go.
Let's go for it. And yeah, there's only so many
(01:28):
times we can ask these questions.
The more you ask, the more you understand.
So maybe. Who doesn't want to talk about a
flow track more than once? Yeah.
We can reuse all those puns and nobody will notice.
Absolutely. All right, enough about
nonsense. Today's episode is a great one
for anyone who has ever felt a bit overwhelmed by the thought
(01:51):
of auditing ISO 14,000 and one. And we know you're not alone.
We hear it from our students quite often, so this week we're
talking about where start, what to ask, and how to actually make
sense of the standard when you're standing in the middle of
a real business trying to figureout if and how things are
working. So as always.
Today's podcast is an extension of our most recent LTS article,
(02:13):
which you can check out via the link.
I've popped in the show notes for you today and we'll be sure
to pop in any other links to some Nuggets of wisdom that we
share along during today's conversation.
So Jackie, we do want to go intothis.
I do feel like we've both got that heightened level of anxiety
and are talking that little bit faster today just to make sure
(02:34):
we get through the recording. So if you want to slow down your
speed and listen to us at half pace, I'm sure it will sound
somewhat normal for most of you.I know we're Queens, we're
Queenslanders, we're Queenslander.
And you, you and I have actuallyhad plenty of conversations in
our years working together aboutthat.
(02:57):
Where do I begin feeling? And they're not necessarily
related to 14,000 and one, but it is a question that we are
seeing a lot from our students. And this week you bought a
really brilliant metaphor to themix, which does tie in very
nicely with 14,000 and One. And, and apologies in advance to
(03:18):
everyone who doesn't enjoy a good dad joke or a pun, because
you we're going to fill the roomwith them today.
We're going to. Flood this place.
So, Jackie, thank you. You're welcome.
It's already started. Yeah, when did this whole
plumbing analogy come from? Maybe like it was a fluke, but
(03:43):
it was still top of mind becausewe did have a plumber come in
last week and obviously leading up to that we had an issue with
a tap. And then we found out the taps
and we thought, well, we might as well get the plumber to do
everything. So that sort of analogy, you
(04:04):
know, tap water was top of mind.And then when I was writing the
newsletter, I was looking for that sort of, you know,
metaphor, something to align it with.
And then I started playing with the, with the plumbing and the
pipes solution. I found a little like a, a
(04:27):
visual which weirdly enough had five, five sort of outlets.
And I, and it really aligned with it.
So I, I just ran with it and extended on the analogy that I
used in the LTS. So, you know, as you know, as
(04:48):
this is our second attempt at recording and Kelly came up with
some amazing alignments with water pipes, taps.
So I'm going to throw you under the bus and you can, you can do
the same thing, no? Problem I've had an opportunity
to practice and improve, so I'vegot a couple of extras in the
(05:11):
pocket this week. So I suppose that's where that
came from, but I suppose the original concept for these came
from actually a student of ours who's sort of launching into the
world of certification and auditing.
And it the question sort of cameto to me from her and it it was
(05:36):
specific to 14,000 and one as well.
It's like, look, I feel comfortable with quality and
OHS, but yeah, environment is scaring me a bit and I don't
know where to start and what to ask.
So that was sort of the catalystthat made me think of this
topic. And I know with our specialist
(05:58):
training, I've written like setsof questions that you could
potentially ask as auditors. I wrote them years ago.
So I went hunting those down as well.
And I used those as a reference to the five key areas that I
ended up selecting. And you'll see as we work
(06:19):
through the five, they all feed into each other to basically
uncover the story, which is all,which is all we're trying to do
is uncover the story and understand what the business,
what the organization does. Yeah, yeah.
And you mentioned last week as well, the like every standard,
(06:44):
it's not about opening, just opening the standard, looking at
each clause individually and getting locked in that detail.
You've got here again, I'm stealing from the run sheet just
before I throw you to your shortanswer around again, not
memorizing every clause, coming up with a checklist and
understanding that the key area is to give you that more insight
(07:05):
so you know what to ask to draw it out.
And that's what we're going to focus on today.
So let's jump straight into yourshort answer and then get into
these analogies, because I've got a few new ones.
OK, no worries. Let's get stuck into it then.
So we'll be introducing. Sorry, I'm laughing already, the
(07:28):
EMS flow check. So that's what I ended up
calling the model or the diagram.
So hence, you know, Kelly, Kelly's really good at dad
jokes. So you're going to get a lot
around the flow check and the flow check is focusing on five
key areas, the five key areas where your environmental aspects
(07:52):
and contexts, your compliance, so your legal and other
requirements operation, so the implementation and then your
performance evaluation. And Kelly and I'll break those
down shortly. So as I said in the in the
newsletter, each of those areas it real, they are really
logically connected, OK, as we said like a well functioning
(08:18):
plumbing system and it gives yousome insight into whether the
EMS itself is actually running effectively efficiently or if
it's just there for looks or maybe it's even sprung a leak I
guess. So in the analogy in the in the
newsletter, I said you're not just walking through each room
(08:40):
of this new house that Kelly mentioned earlier and asking, is
there a tap? You're actually checking where
does the water come from? Where's it going?
Are there any leaks and is it actually working when you turn
the tap on? So you can see you're sort of
exploring the inner workings a bit.
We're being, we're being plumbers, essentially.
(09:03):
Yeah, I was going to say something.
Working key, working PG writing.Jackie OK, Same goes.
So if we're plumbers, you can have whatever visual you want.
Yeah. Of a plumber, so let's pretend
(09:23):
we're in plumbers. So get that visual in your head.
The same goes when you're auditing ISO 14,000 and one,
you're not just confirming if a clause exists, you're actually
checking how it flows through the business, where it links and
if there's actually evidence that it's actually working in
(09:45):
practice. So I suppose that short answer
also gives you some background into how I came up with that EMS
flow. Shake I just remembered last
week why it took us so long to record and it had nothing to do
with external influences. It was around the maturity
switch that we experienced. So I apologise in advance for
(10:09):
Jackie reverting back to her primary school days, and I will
try to keep things composed frommy end, but I cannot promise
him. Let's let's jump into that first
key. Area, OK, so the first key area
in the EMS flow check is context.
So everything flows from this. OK, so that's clause 4.
(10:32):
This is where everything starts.So if the business doesn't
understand its internal and external influences, which is
what context is all about, plus your interested parties, nothing
else will really line up correctly.
It's got to flow from context. So the questions that I suggest
(10:57):
I used at this starting topic isthings like, OK, these are just
guides. You can swap them around into
however you're more comfortable to ask them.
But it's something like asking what influences your
environmental impact. So remember, we're looking for
external and internal influencesand how do you identify these,
(11:21):
what's the process and who's involved in that process?
OK, so then you're sneaking a little bit of consultation and
even leadership in there. So you can see those three
questions are just really opening up a conversation
because what we're looking for is that high level thinking and
(11:42):
process, not just ticking some boxes or, you know, completing a
SWOT analysis and then just shoving it on a shelf somewhere.
We're looking at starting a conversation to see if if the
organization truly understands what these influences are.
(12:04):
And this is where we come back to that house analogy that we're
starting with and our house is kind of our context and the land
that we're living on and and allof those things that are coming
out. So to stick with the plumbing
side of things, the example thatI very cleverly used last week,
and this is going to be my challenge to remember these
things was around rainwater tanks.
So you're self-sufficient home, here's your house.
(12:27):
And we just want to start collecting the water.
This is where we're collecting the water.
Where is it coming from? Is it coming from the rain?
Is it coming from the Jew? If we had to truck it in,
whatever that is, start finding out all of those influences, how
we determine which is going to be the source that we're using.
And then how do we, how do we make that happen?
So that's kind of the space we're out.
(12:48):
How do we get the water into thehouse in the 1st place?
Or do we look at that plumbing? What I found really interesting
then was same as last week. So this is, I want to, it's a
great example if, how and why these questions work.
So the first time that Jackie and I ran through this, I was
actually, rather than focusing necessarily on the actual
(13:11):
questions she was asking, I was already starting to visualize
and picture the answers to each of these questions.
And I wasn't, as you said, not just looking for a SWOT analysis
on a shelf. I wasn't going over all this is
the document. It got me thinking about all of
those visuals that I like. I just explained, OK, so where
does this come from? Who is that person?
(13:33):
And I don't know if anyone noticed you did a little bit of
a tricky thing there. You were kind of like, oh, So
what what influences your environmental aspects or impacts
and, and how do you identify these?
Oh, yeah. But, but who's involved in that?
It was very, there was no force.It was kind of like, oh, hang
on, I've got another idea. You've always got those
questions in your back pocket, but the way that you delivered
(13:53):
them was much more relaxing, conversational.
And I was actually, yeah, this, this, this is an influence.
Well, this impacts us. Oh, yeah, that person.
Oh, yeah. I know that we do a SWOT
analysis, but I don't need to reference it to give you the
answer. I just know that we're doing it.
I'm not looking for those things.
So again, the way that you're asking those questions and not
(14:16):
necessarily aligning them with that clause or the standard,
yeah, is giving us those answers.
It's a more natural conversation.
Absolutely. A lot less pressure to answer
the questions. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Yeah.
OK. So did you want the second key
area for the EMS fire check? Yes, please.
(14:36):
OK. That one is environmental
aspects. OK, this and as per a previous
episode, I think a couple of episodes ago, I think Kelly, you
were gonna put that episode in the notes 'cause I think it's a
good link as well. Because in a previous newsletter
(14:56):
and podcast, Kelly and I did talk about the significance, the
importance of identifying your significant aspects and how they
follow all the way through. So it's no surprise that I've
got environmental aspects in this EMS flow check because it
is core to any EMS. So if you, if it is not clear,
(15:20):
if you have not identified your significant environmental
aspects, then really the rest ofthe system, I don't know, it's
just fluff, it's just noise. It's just it's it's not doing
anything significant or relevant.
It's not aligned, OK. So there's three questions that
(15:41):
I put together here to start this natural conversation around
understanding these environmental aspects and
particularly significant, OK, The question in the newsletter
said what are your key environmental aspects?
But I'm going to change key to significant, OK.
I know it sort of means the same, but significant comes from
(16:03):
the standard there. That's the keyword.
So yeah, can you show me what, what have you identified as your
significant environmental aspects?
How did you do that and how are they identified?
Do you review them at all? And how is the life cycle of the
activities, products and services that you deliver?
(16:24):
How is that considered in this process?
I say you can see it's a naturally curious set of
questions that will uncover whatthe business has, one,
identified and two, what the process is.
So it's you're really looking for something of relevance.
(16:46):
You could say, OK, and I use those 3 terms, activities,
products and services, That's sort of a statement from the
standards because that's really what it's all about.
What significant environmental aspects are relevant to the
activities, products and services that you deliver?
(17:07):
Yeah. I know you said that you changed
the word key to significant because it's in the standard.
But again, I want our listeners when they, when they hear that
question, ask, ask the question to yourself both ways and see
how you answer it very differently.
Because when you ask what are our key environmental aspects,
my brain automatically went to thinking of a list or what are
(17:31):
the top three things that we like?
What are? What are both?
Focus. Yeah, I was really like, what
are there? There's got to be a list of
something here. But when you said significant, I
automatically went to OK, these are the things that are big and
I can probably rattle off a few.I didn't feel pressured to, you
(17:51):
know, identify specific things, but I understood that I needed
to explain things that were of significance rather than
specificity. So that's again, a really,
really important way to think about, sorry, important thing to
think about when you're asking these questions.
(18:13):
But going back to my plumbing analogy or your plumbing
analogies, this is where we start looking at them.
Again, we've got the house. We've got the rainwater tanks we
need to fill them. Our environmental aspects.
Have we got people's trees that are blocking out our guttering,
stopping things from getting in?Are we getting up on the roof
and checking that? Are we in a drought?
(18:34):
What are like? What are all?
Of those things that we have control over things, things that
we don't have control over that are going to impact the quality
or the volume of water that we're getting into the property
specific to us, as you said, notrecycled from another business.
We need to make sure that they're specific to us, so.
(18:58):
You actually used a couple of good words, then you used just a
couple. All the rest now you know, you
used what you can control and what you can.
Well, I think, did you say influence?
No, I think you said what you can control, what you can't.
But in the standard they do talkabout what you can control and
(19:23):
what you can influence. So when you said that, you
reminded me, it's like, oh, that's really important because
I went towards, you know, your activities, products and
services. But it is about, well, what do
you have control over? And then there might be some
things that you can influence, OK, that you don't have complete
control over, like subcontractors, for instance.
(19:46):
You'll have some influence over,OK, doesn't mean that you, you
know, have the right to tell them what to do.
You might have some policies or something in your contract with
them, or you might require to have, I don't know, I don't
know, some sort of documentationfrom them with regards to their
(20:11):
own EMS or how they, the the work that they do influences
your own EMS. Oh, I use that word again.
Influence. Yeah, yeah.
What are they doing when they leave your site with your
product? What are they doing when they
leave your site with things thatthey have taken?
So again, thinking about, yeah, all of the things that you can
(20:34):
and can't control. Yeah.
Wonderful into the next very important.
Space, yes, the third key area in the EMS flow check is
compliance. So when I say compliance, that's
like legal requirements. There can be other requirements
as well. It's a very vain term, but other
(20:56):
means obviously it's not legal, but the requirements that the
organization chooses to comply to.
OK. So, so this sort of section of
the flow check is more about, I suppose, keeping the system
regulated, clean legal as well. So no one wants to find out that
(21:20):
they've missed these legal requirements and other
requirements as well because that's what you're choosing to
do. Also, obviously there's a big
difference legal stuff you have to all right, that's the the
highest risk. OK.
So the three questions that I suggested and put together for
(21:41):
this are sort of like this. So you can ask what legal
requirements apply. I would tend to separate that
from other requirements. And if you're going to ask what
other requirements apply, maybe explain it a bit.
What do you choose, you know, outside of your legal
(22:02):
requirements, is there anything else that you choose to comply
with? And then once you've established
that and you've talked about that and they've shared what
have you identified, then the next natural question would be,
oh, that's great. So how are they tracked and, and
reviewed? Like do these change often?
(22:25):
So how do you keep them up to date so you can see it's this
natural curiosity of the processthat they're following and the
output and how it applies to once again, their activities,
products and services? I think the analogy I used last
week on the, the compliance sideof things was putting in a water
(22:48):
filter at, at your tanks, makingsure that, yeah, you've got your
water, whatever the quality it is, it's coming into your tanks
and now you want to start feeding it out to the the people
that are living there or workingthere.
And what do we need to do to make sure that what we're doing
is safe? That's your legal requirements.
So we've got to make sure that at a minimum, the water is at
(23:09):
this quality through the filter.And that's our legal
obligations. But you can always make it
better and there's always other rules and regulations that you
like. So you can add your UV to your
carbon or whatever it is, kind of extra filtration if you wish
to do bigger, better, safer. And there are your other
obligations as well. And you can see very clearly how
(23:32):
those things are, the inputs andthe outputs through your
filters. Feel like I'm not doing it
anywhere near as much justice asI did last week.
But if it's able to, to give it a little bit more of a kind of a
thought process you're kind of building here, it has to be a
certain way. Yeah, a bit better on top of
that. And, and I think that's really
(23:54):
important. And again, the terminology you
use there rather than, well, what are your other
requirements? Well, what other things do you
do to to open above your legal requirements to make things
better is much softer. And again, if you're not dealing
with top management, they're notgoing to feel as intimidated or
threatened. And they might actually give you
(24:15):
some answers that others might not think of space as well.
That's. Right.
Yeah. And as we said, it's a it
becomes more of a natural conversation.
Yeah, and that's what you want. Yeah, yeah.
And all the while, we as auditors, we're still asking
these questions and having this natural conversation.
(24:37):
But the whole time we're still moving towards the outcome or
the evidence that we're looking for, not in such a stilted way.
Yeah, you're less intimidating. You're going to.
I feel that conversation is certainly going to get much more
genuine responses as well. Yeah, it's true.
Yeah, true. OK.
(24:57):
So there are five key areas. So the fourth key area in the
EMS flow check is operations. So this is where those previous
three, so your context, your aspects and your compliance come
into play. Like the the previous three were
all about understanding, I guess, and they're more of an
(25:22):
input. Well, that's a good way of
putting it. Yeah.
So context aspects and compliance, the outputs of those
become inputs to the operations side of it, because now we
understand the internal and external influences, we
understand the significant aspects, we understand our legal
(25:43):
and other requirements. Now we need to put stuff into
action and implement any strategy or operational
procedures to manage what we've identified in those three areas.
So you can see why I called it flow.
It flows all the way through. OK.
(26:04):
So in operations as well, this is where you'll start looking at
controls to manage or mitigate any risks that you've
identified. Also take advantage of any
opportunities as well because remember, this is all risk
based. So the three questions that I
put together that you could start the conversation around
(26:29):
for operations are what controlshave you got in place for your
significant aspects? Remember, you know, you told me
that these were your significantaspects.
That's great work. You've identified them.
How are you managing the potential risks with that?
OK, yeah. It can actually be pretty
exciting, to be honest. When you ask that question.
(26:51):
It's like, oh, wow, yeah, that'sfantastic.
And then, of course, how do you people feel about that?
How do you workers or contractors feel about that?
You know, are they comfortable following along with those
processes? Sometimes I might also ask and
what challenges might you have with that?
(27:12):
OK. And how do you check that?
How do you know that they're following these processes that
you've put in place? So you can see it's, it's about
uncovering these, these next steps at these operations and I
suppose implementation stage because those previous three
(27:33):
steps are sort of influencing what we say we do.
So if the system says one thing in this operational side of
things, it might be telling you it's doing something different.
OK. And that's that's what we're
looking for. We're looking to see whether
what what the business says theydo, are they actually doing it
(27:57):
or is there some sort of gap? Yeah.
And and this is where all of your plumbing analogies come
together. Your operations is your pipe
work. We've gone from a roof to our
tank to our filter and now we'reout in the pipes.
And if if your pipes are nice and straight and they're all
running with gravity, I'm ignoring you and not looking,
(28:21):
everything is going to run or flow smoothly.
It's all going to go where it needs to go and and reach those
taps at the relevant point, but there was a.
Blocked. Pipes, nobody wants blocked
pipes. It's not comfortable.
It's it's messy, all of those things.
But this is where we were talking about.
(28:42):
I've sent you a couple of weeks ago now there, there was a reel
I saw that made me laugh really hard and it was a beautiful, I
think it was an electrician, butI'm going to pretend it was a
plumber who he'd lined. He'd set everything up nicely.
All of his pipe work was all perfectly aligned.
It was all marked up and it was this color for this and this
(29:03):
color for this. It was all beautiful and it was
about preparing everything. The systems to the hand over to
The Apprentice. And then he scrolled up and the
apprentices gone from instead offollowing his lovely lines.
Everything went everywhere and there was things going downhill
that should have been going uphill.
And this is where this comes into place because if, if
(29:25):
everything starts off smoothly, this is where you're going to
find everything going haywire. You're going to find your, your
pipes that are captive where they should actually have AT
junction or your pipes that havegot an S bend instead of AY bend
and all of these good things. Yeah.
Can you tell I'm going through renovations?
(29:48):
But yeah, the if you don't have the understanding of how
everything flows on to the next,each element of the business
flows on and impacts the next part, then it is going to get
really messy. You are going to, you're going
to have blockages, you're going to have leaks.
And this is where we're startingto look and find them.
(30:10):
Absolutely. And to do that it moves to that
fifth key area actually. So that's a good flow on effect.
The 5th and final key area in the EMS flow check is
performance evaluation. So this is the the tap.
OK, So Kelly was talking about operations being all of the
(30:33):
pipe, pipe work, everything's come together, performance
evaluation. OK, we turn, turn the tap on.
It shows whether everything is flowing properly, OK, or is it
just dripping or we can't turn it on?
OK. So The thing is, if there's no
data well, and no water in effect, obviously the tap's not
(30:57):
going to work. We, we can't improve either.
So it's, it's that, it's that point that we test.
It's like validation, essentially.
So again, I put together 3 questions to help us with this
performance evaluation. So the very logical next step is
asking what indicators do you track?
(31:19):
OK, So what, what, what are you reviewing?
What did you, you know determineneeded you to check because this
this is all risk based of courseand then they'll share that with
you. Oh, OK, that's interesting.
Have you noticed any trends or you know, has it been at a
specific location or part of your business etcetera?
(31:41):
What what are you identifying like Kelly and I will relate to
this. I love that sort of thing,
looking at data and saying, well, what's it actually telling
me, OK, that you can do so much with this data and it helps you
to make decisions based on fact,not feelings and which is really
(32:03):
important in any of their ISO standard.
And then of course, because thisfeeds into management review, we
can also throw internal audit inthe mix here as well.
So as a result of your internal audits and your monitoring and
tracking, this has all gone up to management review.
(32:24):
What's been identified at management review?
Has anything been identified as an improvement?
What's changed? Like again, you can see when I'm
asking these questions, it's natural curiosity.
OK, yeah, I've got 3 questions there, but they're just prompts.
They're sort of like my audit checklist.
(32:46):
They just helped me to know, oh,OK, I'm going to go up this
path. But obviously, based on what the
response has been to the first part of the question, I'm going
to modify it to suit to move on to the next stage.
Yeah. And not only is it going to help
you come up with us with that data and those those outcomes,
(33:10):
it is gonna kind of where you dofind those gaps or those leaks
or that blockage. This is going to help you work
back to find where that is. So going back through those pipe
works. I said yes.
Is it, is it flowing too fast? Are we not able to control the
release of this water? Do we need to slow things down?
Is that a resourcing thing? Have we again, same thing,
(33:34):
blockage? Are we not putting things out
because resourcing or has a process failed somewhere along
the line and there's no handoverspace?
So this is, this is really important as you said, checking
the data and making sure the data is right.
You can't just assume I've turned the tap on and it's, it's
(33:56):
not running, so there must be a blockage.
It might not be a blockage, it might be a leak, it might be
that your washer isn't, I don't know, your washer's wound down.
That's probably the opposite. Whatever.
So this you can see, this is where we start looking for that
root cause. We're going back through and
trying to find out the answers to all of the questions and a
(34:19):
clear understanding about. Have all of those first four
things actually worked as we hadintended?
That's right. And that's actually another good
point, just one that you've madethere, Kelly, thank you is that
you're absolutely right. At this point when you do
identify if there if there is anissue or a gap or an improvement
(34:44):
opportunity, it can actually naturally loop back to what
we've already talked about. These things aren't independent
of each other. And they're not saying no,
neither they are no. It's exactly it's, it's a flow.
So, you know, you, you will naturally go back to context, to
(35:05):
your aspects, to compliance to operations.
So yeah, it's a continual flow, isn't it?
It is, yeah. So thank you for, you know,
having a few light bulb bulb moments for me do it keeping me,
keeping me in check. We're keeping your check.
(35:25):
Really concerned that you're gonna drop out last minute like
last time so let's. Okay, wrap nearly there.
Don't jinx me. Okay, so I'm just gonna wrap up
now and wrap up. Yeah, the five areas that we
covered. So we covered context and like
the key, well, what influences your environmental aspects and
(35:49):
therefore what are your significant impacts?
Look, we're looking for that high level strategic thinking.
So not just, you know, ticking boxes.
And I've done a SWAT. Yeah, here's a Pretty Little
folder. Oh, I'm just gonna dust that off
for you so you can see it. It's, it's got to be, I suppose,
representative of your activities, products and
(36:12):
services. Then the second key area in the
EMS flow check was your environmental aspects.
So what are your significant environmental aspects?
As I said, look in the show notes because we've actually got
an entire episode on those environmental aspects.
And I think it's a really important part of any EMS.
(36:35):
So with this, you're you're looking for relevance, OK.
And you'll see in the other episode, stay to the end here,
but then go to the next episode and really, yeah, dig down into
into this significant environmental aspects and you'll
see how it influences the rest of your system.
The third area was compliance. So that's your legal and other
(36:58):
requirements, your other requirements that you choose to
comply with as opposed to the stuff that you actually have to
do. It's legal, OK?
It's not optional. So understanding what these are
will help with the outputs of your system, a strategy to
ensure that you're meeting them or giving it your best shot that
(37:21):
these three, the context, your environmental aspects and your
compliance, those three feed into your operations.
OK, there's outputs from context, environmental aspects
and compliance. So those outputs are the inputs
to operations. Because operations, you're
actually implementing this stuff, all of that stuff that
(37:44):
you've learned in those top three that that's come bursting
through the pipes. OK.
And it's flowing through. Yeah.
Watch how it's flowing through. And now with the operations
stage, it's about understanding,well, if the system says one
thing, are you actually doing it?
(38:06):
Is there still a gap? Are people owning this?
OK, what's what's going on? And a great way to do that is
the final bit turning the tap, which is performance evaluation.
So understanding well, what are we actually tracking and
reviewing? OK, this is where we find out
if, you know, the water does flow correctly or if there's a
(38:30):
tap dripping. That's actually something I just
reminded. One of the taps that we had
replaced was in our kitchen and.We've been here.
For five years and it's always been slow.
And to get hot water, we turned it on and I have to walk away
and basically clean the kitchen until I've got hot water.
(38:52):
And then we decided, oh, well, that's one of the taps, we'll
get replaced. And it's a completely different
experience. Like, it was nothing to do with
the water pressure. It was to do with the tap the
whole time. So yeah.
So now I don't have to walk around and clean the kitchen
while I get hot water. So you can see it's about
(39:14):
understanding all of the bits that come together for that
final output. OK.
And that's where we discover it with turning the tap, OK, is it
dripping? Is it, is it coming out at all?
And then as Kelly rightly pointed to, anything that we
discover at this tap end, it canfeed back into the the context,
(39:39):
the compliance and the environmental aspects into
operations again. And it's a continual yeah cycle.
It's all the pipe work in the house.
It is it helps to ask the question of somebody who
understands the process because if you'd asked me the question,
I would have told you it's a water pressure issue, not that
(40:01):
you need to replace this tap, so.
Yeah. Warrants of having somebody who
understands the process answering the questions.
Yeah, exactly. That's right, I'm not a plumber.
No. And isn't it?
Funny what we put up with. Yeah.
Yeah, and accept because you don't know any different.
(40:21):
So that's actually another good point.
Very good. Top, top marks for you this
week, Kelly. Why do you hear my light bulb
moments This. Week.
Oh goodness. OK, so I'm I'm gonna hand it
back to you then. So before I do though, remember
anyone can follow the standard. Why don't you be the one to lead
the standard? Thank you, Jackie.
(40:43):
That is a wrap for another episode of Leave the Standard.
We have tried to take a closer look on how to approach ISO
14,000 and one 2015 audits with intentions, not just confirming
that what's on the paper, but actually understanding how the
system flows in practice. It's about asking those better
questions, seeing those connections and recognising the
(41:03):
signs of a system that's either flowing along nicely or a sprung
a leak or blocked up with a couple of roots here and there.
My light bulb moments are kind of capped off there with them,
but anybody can read off a pieceof paper.
But being genuinely curious is going to offer those broader
insights. It is going to demonstrate a
(41:24):
clearer understanding and it's probably even going to generate
a few new improvement opportunities for the person
that you're asking of the question because your curiosity
is going to feed their curiosityand they're going to start
asking questions themselves to kind of understand, well, why?
Why is the answer I'm giving youthe answer I'm giving you.
(41:44):
You might end up turning on a few more taps or replacing a
couple of old leaky ones, as yousaid.
So thank you, Jackie, as always for your insights.
Making a potentially overwhelming topic really
refreshingly practical and simple.
So it's not about an interrogation, it's about a
conversation. And that's how you're going to
(42:04):
get the best ordered outcomes for everybody.
So thank you. Next week, well, yeah, next week
we'll be publishing. Tomorrow we'll be recording.
We are going to be back with another insightful episode.
And this one I'm really excited about.
It's really top of mind for a lot of people at the moment.
(42:25):
It's not just about the face to face how ISO leaders connect
today. I am really keen to bite into
that one, to say it's really topof mind, particularly here with
the election going on as well and work from home and all of
those sorts of things as well. So kind of understand how that
all fits in today's auditing world.
Thank you again, everyone for listening.
(42:46):
As always, please don't forget to subscribe, share this
episode, leave us a review. And until we see you next time,
take care, stay curious and keepleading the stand in.
Bye for now.
When you're handed your first EMS audits, it's a little bit
like being asked to find a leak in the house that you've never
lived in before. You've got the checklist, you've
got the training, maybe even theexperience, but the question
still hangs in the air, where doI even start with ISO 14,000 and
one? So let's talk about auditing ISO
(00:21):
14,000 and One 2015 and where tostart and what to ask.
Welcome to leading the standard.Hi, I'm Kelly Taylor, thank you
for joining us for yet another episode of Leisure Standard.
As always, I am here with the lovely and one and only Jackie
Stapleton. And we're getting a little, we
(00:44):
are a little bit late with this week's episode, but I promise
it's not our fault. We have previously identified
some external influences that decided not to save last week's
recording. So we are here again for take
Two and we are hoping that that doesn't happen again.
So hi, Jackie. Hello, Yeah, I'm hoping, yeah,
not not another like not a repeat of last week.
(01:07):
So cross fingers on my Internet stability today, but the the
likelihood based on based on yesterday's events is is still
quite high. So let's just give it a go.
Let's go for it. And yeah, there's only so many
(01:28):
times we can ask these questions.
The more you ask, the more you understand.
So maybe. Who doesn't want to talk about a
flow track more than once? Yeah.
We can reuse all those puns and nobody will notice.
Absolutely. All right, enough about
nonsense. Today's episode is a great one
for anyone who has ever felt a bit overwhelmed by the thought
(01:51):
of auditing ISO 14,000 and one. And we know you're not alone.
We hear it from our students quite often, so this week we're
talking about where start, what to ask, and how to actually make
sense of the standard when you're standing in the middle of
a real business trying to figureout if and how things are
working. So as always.
Today's podcast is an extension of our most recent LTS article,
(02:13):
which you can check out via the link.
I've popped in the show notes for you today and we'll be sure
to pop in any other links to some Nuggets of wisdom that we
share along during today's conversation.
So Jackie, we do want to go intothis.
I do feel like we've both got that heightened level of anxiety
and are talking that little bit faster today just to make sure
(02:34):
we get through the recording. So if you want to slow down your
speed and listen to us at half pace, I'm sure it will sound
somewhat normal for most of you.I know we're Queens, we're
Queenslanders, we're Queenslander.
And you, you and I have actuallyhad plenty of conversations in
our years working together aboutthat.
(02:57):
Where do I begin feeling? And they're not necessarily
related to 14,000 and one, but it is a question that we are
seeing a lot from our students. And this week you bought a
really brilliant metaphor to themix, which does tie in very
nicely with 14,000 and One. And, and apologies in advance to
(03:18):
everyone who doesn't enjoy a good dad joke or a pun, because
you we're going to fill the roomwith them today.
We're going to. Flood this place.
So, Jackie, thank you. You're welcome.
It's already started. Yeah, when did this whole
plumbing analogy come from? Maybe like it was a fluke, but
(03:43):
it was still top of mind becausewe did have a plumber come in
last week and obviously leading up to that we had an issue with
a tap. And then we found out the taps
and we thought, well, we might as well get the plumber to do
everything. So that sort of analogy, you
(04:04):
know, tap water was top of mind.And then when I was writing the
newsletter, I was looking for that sort of, you know,
metaphor, something to align it with.
And then I started playing with the, with the plumbing and the
pipes solution. I found a little like a, a
(04:27):
visual which weirdly enough had five, five sort of outlets.
And I, and it really aligned with it.
So I, I just ran with it and extended on the analogy that I
used in the LTS. So, you know, as you know, as
(04:48):
this is our second attempt at recording and Kelly came up with
some amazing alignments with water pipes, taps.
So I'm going to throw you under the bus and you can, you can do
the same thing, no? Problem I've had an opportunity
to practice and improve, so I'vegot a couple of extras in the
(05:11):
pocket this week. So I suppose that's where that
came from, but I suppose the original concept for these came
from actually a student of ours who's sort of launching into the
world of certification and auditing.
And it the question sort of cameto to me from her and it it was
(05:36):
specific to 14,000 and one as well.
It's like, look, I feel comfortable with quality and
OHS, but yeah, environment is scaring me a bit and I don't
know where to start and what to ask.
So that was sort of the catalystthat made me think of this
topic. And I know with our specialist
(05:58):
training, I've written like setsof questions that you could
potentially ask as auditors. I wrote them years ago.
So I went hunting those down as well.
And I used those as a reference to the five key areas that I
ended up selecting. And you'll see as we work
(06:19):
through the five, they all feed into each other to basically
uncover the story, which is all,which is all we're trying to do
is uncover the story and understand what the business,
what the organization does. Yeah, yeah.
And you mentioned last week as well, the like every standard,
(06:44):
it's not about opening, just opening the standard, looking at
each clause individually and getting locked in that detail.
You've got here again, I'm stealing from the run sheet just
before I throw you to your shortanswer around again, not
memorizing every clause, coming up with a checklist and
understanding that the key area is to give you that more insight
(07:05):
so you know what to ask to draw it out.
And that's what we're going to focus on today.
So let's jump straight into yourshort answer and then get into
these analogies, because I've got a few new ones.
OK, no worries. Let's get stuck into it then.
So we'll be introducing. Sorry, I'm laughing already, the
(07:28):
EMS flow check. So that's what I ended up
calling the model or the diagram.
So hence, you know, Kelly, Kelly's really good at dad
jokes. So you're going to get a lot
around the flow check and the flow check is focusing on five
key areas, the five key areas where your environmental aspects
(07:52):
and contexts, your compliance, so your legal and other
requirements operation, so the implementation and then your
performance evaluation. And Kelly and I'll break those
down shortly. So as I said in the in the
newsletter, each of those areas it real, they are really
logically connected, OK, as we said like a well functioning
(08:18):
plumbing system and it gives yousome insight into whether the
EMS itself is actually running effectively efficiently or if
it's just there for looks or maybe it's even sprung a leak I
guess. So in the analogy in the in the
newsletter, I said you're not just walking through each room
(08:40):
of this new house that Kelly mentioned earlier and asking, is
there a tap? You're actually checking where
does the water come from? Where's it going?
Are there any leaks and is it actually working when you turn
the tap on? So you can see you're sort of
exploring the inner workings a bit.
We're being, we're being plumbers, essentially.
(09:03):
Yeah, I was going to say something.
Working key, working PG writing.Jackie OK, Same goes.
So if we're plumbers, you can have whatever visual you want.
Yeah. Of a plumber, so let's pretend
(09:23):
we're in plumbers. So get that visual in your head.
The same goes when you're auditing ISO 14,000 and one,
you're not just confirming if a clause exists, you're actually
checking how it flows through the business, where it links and
if there's actually evidence that it's actually working in
(09:45):
practice. So I suppose that short answer
also gives you some background into how I came up with that EMS
flow. Shake I just remembered last
week why it took us so long to record and it had nothing to do
with external influences. It was around the maturity
switch that we experienced. So I apologise in advance for
(10:09):
Jackie reverting back to her primary school days, and I will
try to keep things composed frommy end, but I cannot promise
him. Let's let's jump into that first
key. Area, OK, so the first key area
in the EMS flow check is context.
So everything flows from this. OK, so that's clause 4.
(10:32):
This is where everything starts.So if the business doesn't
understand its internal and external influences, which is
what context is all about, plus your interested parties, nothing
else will really line up correctly.
It's got to flow from context. So the questions that I suggest
(10:57):
I used at this starting topic isthings like, OK, these are just
guides. You can swap them around into
however you're more comfortable to ask them.
But it's something like asking what influences your
environmental impact. So remember, we're looking for
external and internal influencesand how do you identify these,
(11:21):
what's the process and who's involved in that process?
OK, so then you're sneaking a little bit of consultation and
even leadership in there. So you can see those three
questions are just really opening up a conversation
because what we're looking for is that high level thinking and
(11:42):
process, not just ticking some boxes or, you know, completing a
SWOT analysis and then just shoving it on a shelf somewhere.
We're looking at starting a conversation to see if if the
organization truly understands what these influences are.
(12:04):
And this is where we come back to that house analogy that we're
starting with and our house is kind of our context and the land
that we're living on and and allof those things that are coming
out. So to stick with the plumbing
side of things, the example thatI very cleverly used last week,
and this is going to be my challenge to remember these
things was around rainwater tanks.
So you're self-sufficient home, here's your house.
(12:27):
And we just want to start collecting the water.
This is where we're collecting the water.
Where is it coming from? Is it coming from the rain?
Is it coming from the Jew? If we had to truck it in,
whatever that is, start finding out all of those influences, how
we determine which is going to be the source that we're using.
And then how do we, how do we make that happen?
So that's kind of the space we're out.
(12:48):
How do we get the water into thehouse in the 1st place?
Or do we look at that plumbing? What I found really interesting
then was same as last week. So this is, I want to, it's a
great example if, how and why these questions work.
So the first time that Jackie and I ran through this, I was
actually, rather than focusing necessarily on the actual
(13:11):
questions she was asking, I was already starting to visualize
and picture the answers to each of these questions.
And I wasn't, as you said, not just looking for a SWOT analysis
on a shelf. I wasn't going over all this is
the document. It got me thinking about all of
those visuals that I like. I just explained, OK, so where
does this come from? Who is that person?
(13:33):
And I don't know if anyone noticed you did a little bit of
a tricky thing there. You were kind of like, oh, So
what what influences your environmental aspects or impacts
and, and how do you identify these?
Oh, yeah. But, but who's involved in that?
It was very, there was no force.It was kind of like, oh, hang
on, I've got another idea. You've always got those
questions in your back pocket, but the way that you delivered
(13:53):
them was much more relaxing, conversational.
And I was actually, yeah, this, this, this is an influence.
Well, this impacts us. Oh, yeah, that person.
Oh, yeah. I know that we do a SWOT
analysis, but I don't need to reference it to give you the
answer. I just know that we're doing it.
I'm not looking for those things.
So again, the way that you're asking those questions and not
(14:16):
necessarily aligning them with that clause or the standard,
yeah, is giving us those answers.
It's a more natural conversation.
Absolutely. A lot less pressure to answer
the questions. Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Yeah.
OK. So did you want the second key
area for the EMS fire check? Yes, please.
(14:36):
OK. That one is environmental
aspects. OK, this and as per a previous
episode, I think a couple of episodes ago, I think Kelly, you
were gonna put that episode in the notes 'cause I think it's a
good link as well. Because in a previous newsletter
(14:56):
and podcast, Kelly and I did talk about the significance, the
importance of identifying your significant aspects and how they
follow all the way through. So it's no surprise that I've
got environmental aspects in this EMS flow check because it
is core to any EMS. So if you, if it is not clear,
(15:20):
if you have not identified your significant environmental
aspects, then really the rest ofthe system, I don't know, it's
just fluff, it's just noise. It's just it's it's not doing
anything significant or relevant.
It's not aligned, OK. So there's three questions that
(15:41):
I put together here to start this natural conversation around
understanding these environmental aspects and
particularly significant, OK, The question in the newsletter
said what are your key environmental aspects?
But I'm going to change key to significant, OK.
I know it sort of means the same, but significant comes from
(16:03):
the standard there. That's the keyword.
So yeah, can you show me what, what have you identified as your
significant environmental aspects?
How did you do that and how are they identified?
Do you review them at all? And how is the life cycle of the
activities, products and services that you deliver?
(16:24):
How is that considered in this process?
I say you can see it's a naturally curious set of
questions that will uncover whatthe business has, one,
identified and two, what the process is.
So it's you're really looking for something of relevance.
(16:46):
You could say, OK, and I use those 3 terms, activities,
products and services, That's sort of a statement from the
standards because that's really what it's all about.
What significant environmental aspects are relevant to the
activities, products and services that you deliver?
(17:07):
Yeah. I know you said that you changed
the word key to significant because it's in the standard.
But again, I want our listeners when they, when they hear that
question, ask, ask the question to yourself both ways and see
how you answer it very differently.
Because when you ask what are our key environmental aspects,
my brain automatically went to thinking of a list or what are
(17:31):
the top three things that we like?
What are? What are both?
Focus. Yeah, I was really like, what
are there? There's got to be a list of
something here. But when you said significant, I
automatically went to OK, these are the things that are big and
I can probably rattle off a few.I didn't feel pressured to, you
(17:51):
know, identify specific things, but I understood that I needed
to explain things that were of significance rather than
specificity. So that's again, a really,
really important way to think about, sorry, important thing to
think about when you're asking these questions.
(18:13):
But going back to my plumbing analogy or your plumbing
analogies, this is where we start looking at them.
Again, we've got the house. We've got the rainwater tanks we
need to fill them. Our environmental aspects.
Have we got people's trees that are blocking out our guttering,
stopping things from getting in?Are we getting up on the roof
and checking that? Are we in a drought?
(18:34):
What are like? What are all?
Of those things that we have control over things, things that
we don't have control over that are going to impact the quality
or the volume of water that we're getting into the property
specific to us, as you said, notrecycled from another business.
We need to make sure that they're specific to us, so.
(18:58):
You actually used a couple of good words, then you used just a
couple. All the rest now you know, you
used what you can control and what you can.
Well, I think, did you say influence?
No, I think you said what you can control, what you can't.
But in the standard they do talkabout what you can control and
(19:23):
what you can influence. So when you said that, you
reminded me, it's like, oh, that's really important because
I went towards, you know, your activities, products and
services. But it is about, well, what do
you have control over? And then there might be some
things that you can influence, OK, that you don't have complete
control over, like subcontractors, for instance.
(19:46):
You'll have some influence over,OK, doesn't mean that you, you
know, have the right to tell them what to do.
You might have some policies or something in your contract with
them, or you might require to have, I don't know, I don't
know, some sort of documentationfrom them with regards to their
(20:11):
own EMS or how they, the the work that they do influences
your own EMS. Oh, I use that word again.
Influence. Yeah, yeah.
What are they doing when they leave your site with your
product? What are they doing when they
leave your site with things thatthey have taken?
So again, thinking about, yeah, all of the things that you can
(20:34):
and can't control. Yeah.
Wonderful into the next very important.
Space, yes, the third key area in the EMS flow check is
compliance. So when I say compliance, that's
like legal requirements. There can be other requirements
as well. It's a very vain term, but other
(20:56):
means obviously it's not legal, but the requirements that the
organization chooses to comply to.
OK. So, so this sort of section of
the flow check is more about, I suppose, keeping the system
regulated, clean legal as well. So no one wants to find out that
(21:20):
they've missed these legal requirements and other
requirements as well because that's what you're choosing to
do. Also, obviously there's a big
difference legal stuff you have to all right, that's the the
highest risk. OK.
So the three questions that I suggested and put together for
(21:41):
this are sort of like this. So you can ask what legal
requirements apply. I would tend to separate that
from other requirements. And if you're going to ask what
other requirements apply, maybe explain it a bit.
What do you choose, you know, outside of your legal
(22:02):
requirements, is there anything else that you choose to comply
with? And then once you've established
that and you've talked about that and they've shared what
have you identified, then the next natural question would be,
oh, that's great. So how are they tracked and, and
reviewed? Like do these change often?
(22:25):
So how do you keep them up to date so you can see it's this
natural curiosity of the processthat they're following and the
output and how it applies to once again, their activities,
products and services? I think the analogy I used last
week on the, the compliance sideof things was putting in a water
(22:48):
filter at, at your tanks, makingsure that, yeah, you've got your
water, whatever the quality it is, it's coming into your tanks
and now you want to start feeding it out to the the people
that are living there or workingthere.
And what do we need to do to make sure that what we're doing
is safe? That's your legal requirements.
So we've got to make sure that at a minimum, the water is at
(23:09):
this quality through the filter.And that's our legal
obligations. But you can always make it
better and there's always other rules and regulations that you
like. So you can add your UV to your
carbon or whatever it is, kind of extra filtration if you wish
to do bigger, better, safer. And there are your other
obligations as well. And you can see very clearly how
(23:32):
those things are, the inputs andthe outputs through your
filters. Feel like I'm not doing it
anywhere near as much justice asI did last week.
But if it's able to, to give it a little bit more of a kind of a
thought process you're kind of building here, it has to be a
certain way. Yeah, a bit better on top of
that. And, and I think that's really
(23:54):
important. And again, the terminology you
use there rather than, well, what are your other
requirements? Well, what other things do you
do to to open above your legal requirements to make things
better is much softer. And again, if you're not dealing
with top management, they're notgoing to feel as intimidated or
threatened. And they might actually give you
(24:15):
some answers that others might not think of space as well.
That's. Right.
Yeah. And as we said, it's a it
becomes more of a natural conversation.
Yeah, and that's what you want. Yeah, yeah.
And all the while, we as auditors, we're still asking
these questions and having this natural conversation.
(24:37):
But the whole time we're still moving towards the outcome or
the evidence that we're looking for, not in such a stilted way.
Yeah, you're less intimidating. You're going to.
I feel that conversation is certainly going to get much more
genuine responses as well. Yeah, it's true.
Yeah, true. OK.
(24:57):
So there are five key areas. So the fourth key area in the
EMS flow check is operations. So this is where those previous
three, so your context, your aspects and your compliance come
into play. Like the the previous three were
all about understanding, I guess, and they're more of an
(25:22):
input. Well, that's a good way of
putting it. Yeah.
So context aspects and compliance, the outputs of those
become inputs to the operations side of it, because now we
understand the internal and external influences, we
understand the significant aspects, we understand our legal
(25:43):
and other requirements. Now we need to put stuff into
action and implement any strategy or operational
procedures to manage what we've identified in those three areas.
So you can see why I called it flow.
It flows all the way through. OK.
(26:04):
So in operations as well, this is where you'll start looking at
controls to manage or mitigate any risks that you've
identified. Also take advantage of any
opportunities as well because remember, this is all risk
based. So the three questions that I
put together that you could start the conversation around
(26:29):
for operations are what controlshave you got in place for your
significant aspects? Remember, you know, you told me
that these were your significantaspects.
That's great work. You've identified them.
How are you managing the potential risks with that?
OK, yeah. It can actually be pretty
exciting, to be honest. When you ask that question.
(26:51):
It's like, oh, wow, yeah, that'sfantastic.
And then, of course, how do you people feel about that?
How do you workers or contractors feel about that?
You know, are they comfortable following along with those
processes? Sometimes I might also ask and
what challenges might you have with that?
(27:12):
OK. And how do you check that?
How do you know that they're following these processes that
you've put in place? So you can see it's, it's about
uncovering these, these next steps at these operations and I
suppose implementation stage because those previous three
(27:33):
steps are sort of influencing what we say we do.
So if the system says one thing in this operational side of
things, it might be telling you it's doing something different.
OK. And that's that's what we're
looking for. We're looking to see whether
what what the business says theydo, are they actually doing it
(27:57):
or is there some sort of gap? Yeah.
And and this is where all of your plumbing analogies come
together. Your operations is your pipe
work. We've gone from a roof to our
tank to our filter and now we'reout in the pipes.
And if if your pipes are nice and straight and they're all
running with gravity, I'm ignoring you and not looking,
(28:21):
everything is going to run or flow smoothly.
It's all going to go where it needs to go and and reach those
taps at the relevant point, but there was a.
Blocked. Pipes, nobody wants blocked
pipes. It's not comfortable.
It's it's messy, all of those things.
But this is where we were talking about.
(28:42):
I've sent you a couple of weeks ago now there, there was a reel
I saw that made me laugh really hard and it was a beautiful, I
think it was an electrician, butI'm going to pretend it was a
plumber who he'd lined. He'd set everything up nicely.
All of his pipe work was all perfectly aligned.
It was all marked up and it was this color for this and this
(29:03):
color for this. It was all beautiful and it was
about preparing everything. The systems to the hand over to
The Apprentice. And then he scrolled up and the
apprentices gone from instead offollowing his lovely lines.
Everything went everywhere and there was things going downhill
that should have been going uphill.
And this is where this comes into place because if, if
(29:25):
everything starts off smoothly, this is where you're going to
find everything going haywire. You're going to find your, your
pipes that are captive where they should actually have AT
junction or your pipes that havegot an S bend instead of AY bend
and all of these good things. Yeah.
Can you tell I'm going through renovations?
(29:48):
But yeah, the if you don't have the understanding of how
everything flows on to the next,each element of the business
flows on and impacts the next part, then it is going to get
really messy. You are going to, you're going
to have blockages, you're going to have leaks.
And this is where we're startingto look and find them.
(30:10):
Absolutely. And to do that it moves to that
fifth key area actually. So that's a good flow on effect.
The 5th and final key area in the EMS flow check is
performance evaluation. So this is the the tap.
OK, So Kelly was talking about operations being all of the
(30:33):
pipe, pipe work, everything's come together, performance
evaluation. OK, we turn, turn the tap on.
It shows whether everything is flowing properly, OK, or is it
just dripping or we can't turn it on?
OK. So The thing is, if there's no
data well, and no water in effect, obviously the tap's not
(30:57):
going to work. We, we can't improve either.
So it's, it's that, it's that point that we test.
It's like validation, essentially.
So again, I put together 3 questions to help us with this
performance evaluation. So the very logical next step is
asking what indicators do you track?
(31:19):
OK, So what, what, what are you reviewing?
What did you, you know determineneeded you to check because this
this is all risk based of courseand then they'll share that with
you. Oh, OK, that's interesting.
Have you noticed any trends or you know, has it been at a
specific location or part of your business etcetera?
(31:41):
What what are you identifying like Kelly and I will relate to
this. I love that sort of thing,
looking at data and saying, well, what's it actually telling
me, OK, that you can do so much with this data and it helps you
to make decisions based on fact,not feelings and which is really
(32:03):
important in any of their ISO standard.
And then of course, because thisfeeds into management review, we
can also throw internal audit inthe mix here as well.
So as a result of your internal audits and your monitoring and
tracking, this has all gone up to management review.
(32:24):
What's been identified at management review?
Has anything been identified as an improvement?
What's changed? Like again, you can see when I'm
asking these questions, it's natural curiosity.
OK, yeah, I've got 3 questions there, but they're just prompts.
They're sort of like my audit checklist.
(32:46):
They just helped me to know, oh,OK, I'm going to go up this
path. But obviously, based on what the
response has been to the first part of the question, I'm going
to modify it to suit to move on to the next stage.
Yeah. And not only is it going to help
you come up with us with that data and those those outcomes,
(33:10):
it is gonna kind of where you dofind those gaps or those leaks
or that blockage. This is going to help you work
back to find where that is. So going back through those pipe
works. I said yes.
Is it, is it flowing too fast? Are we not able to control the
release of this water? Do we need to slow things down?
Is that a resourcing thing? Have we again, same thing,
(33:34):
blockage? Are we not putting things out
because resourcing or has a process failed somewhere along
the line and there's no handoverspace?
So this is, this is really important as you said, checking
the data and making sure the data is right.
You can't just assume I've turned the tap on and it's, it's
(33:56):
not running, so there must be a blockage.
It might not be a blockage, it might be a leak, it might be
that your washer isn't, I don't know, your washer's wound down.
That's probably the opposite. Whatever.
So this you can see, this is where we start looking for that
root cause. We're going back through and
trying to find out the answers to all of the questions and a
(34:19):
clear understanding about. Have all of those first four
things actually worked as we hadintended?
That's right. And that's actually another good
point, just one that you've madethere, Kelly, thank you is that
you're absolutely right. At this point when you do
identify if there if there is anissue or a gap or an improvement
(34:44):
opportunity, it can actually naturally loop back to what
we've already talked about. These things aren't independent
of each other. And they're not saying no,
neither they are no. It's exactly it's, it's a flow.
So, you know, you, you will naturally go back to context, to
(35:05):
your aspects, to compliance to operations.
So yeah, it's a continual flow, isn't it?
It is, yeah. So thank you for, you know,
having a few light bulb bulb moments for me do it keeping me,
keeping me in check. We're keeping your check.
(35:25):
Really concerned that you're gonna drop out last minute like
last time so let's. Okay, wrap nearly there.
Don't jinx me. Okay, so I'm just gonna wrap up
now and wrap up. Yeah, the five areas that we
covered. So we covered context and like
the key, well, what influences your environmental aspects and
(35:49):
therefore what are your significant impacts?
Look, we're looking for that high level strategic thinking.
So not just, you know, ticking boxes.
And I've done a SWAT. Yeah, here's a Pretty Little
folder. Oh, I'm just gonna dust that off
for you so you can see it. It's, it's got to be, I suppose,
representative of your activities, products and
(36:12):
services. Then the second key area in the
EMS flow check was your environmental aspects.
So what are your significant environmental aspects?
As I said, look in the show notes because we've actually got
an entire episode on those environmental aspects.
And I think it's a really important part of any EMS.
(36:35):
So with this, you're you're looking for relevance, OK.
And you'll see in the other episode, stay to the end here,
but then go to the next episode and really, yeah, dig down into
into this significant environmental aspects and you'll
see how it influences the rest of your system.
The third area was compliance. So that's your legal and other
(36:58):
requirements, your other requirements that you choose to
comply with as opposed to the stuff that you actually have to
do. It's legal, OK?
It's not optional. So understanding what these are
will help with the outputs of your system, a strategy to
ensure that you're meeting them or giving it your best shot that
(37:21):
these three, the context, your environmental aspects and your
compliance, those three feed into your operations.
OK, there's outputs from context, environmental aspects
and compliance. So those outputs are the inputs
to operations. Because operations, you're
actually implementing this stuff, all of that stuff that
(37:44):
you've learned in those top three that that's come bursting
through the pipes. OK.
And it's flowing through. Yeah.
Watch how it's flowing through. And now with the operations
stage, it's about understanding,well, if the system says one
thing, are you actually doing it?
(38:06):
Is there still a gap? Are people owning this?
OK, what's what's going on? And a great way to do that is
the final bit turning the tap, which is performance evaluation.
So understanding well, what are we actually tracking and
reviewing? OK, this is where we find out
if, you know, the water does flow correctly or if there's a
(38:30):
tap dripping. That's actually something I just
reminded. One of the taps that we had
replaced was in our kitchen and.We've been here.
For five years and it's always been slow.
And to get hot water, we turned it on and I have to walk away
and basically clean the kitchen until I've got hot water.
(38:52):
And then we decided, oh, well, that's one of the taps, we'll
get replaced. And it's a completely different
experience. Like, it was nothing to do with
the water pressure. It was to do with the tap the
whole time. So yeah.
So now I don't have to walk around and clean the kitchen
while I get hot water. So you can see it's about
(39:14):
understanding all of the bits that come together for that
final output. OK.
And that's where we discover it with turning the tap, OK, is it
dripping? Is it, is it coming out at all?
And then as Kelly rightly pointed to, anything that we
discover at this tap end, it canfeed back into the the context,
(39:39):
the compliance and the environmental aspects into
operations again. And it's a continual yeah cycle.
It's all the pipe work in the house.
It is it helps to ask the question of somebody who
understands the process because if you'd asked me the question,
I would have told you it's a water pressure issue, not that
(40:01):
you need to replace this tap, so.
Yeah. Warrants of having somebody who
understands the process answering the questions.
Yeah, exactly. That's right, I'm not a plumber.
No. And isn't it?
Funny what we put up with. Yeah.
Yeah, and accept because you don't know any different.
(40:21):
So that's actually another good point.
Very good. Top, top marks for you this
week, Kelly. Why do you hear my light bulb
moments This. Week.
Oh goodness. OK, so I'm I'm gonna hand it
back to you then. So before I do though, remember
anyone can follow the standard. Why don't you be the one to lead
the standard? Thank you, Jackie.
(40:43):
That is a wrap for another episode of Leave the Standard.
We have tried to take a closer look on how to approach ISO
14,000 and one 2015 audits with intentions, not just confirming
that what's on the paper, but actually understanding how the
system flows in practice. It's about asking those better
questions, seeing those connections and recognising the
(41:03):
signs of a system that's either flowing along nicely or a sprung
a leak or blocked up with a couple of roots here and there.
My light bulb moments are kind of capped off there with them,
but anybody can read off a pieceof paper.
But being genuinely curious is going to offer those broader
insights. It is going to demonstrate a
(41:24):
clearer understanding and it's probably even going to generate
a few new improvement opportunities for the person
that you're asking of the question because your curiosity
is going to feed their curiosityand they're going to start
asking questions themselves to kind of understand, well, why?
Why is the answer I'm giving youthe answer I'm giving you.
(41:44):
You might end up turning on a few more taps or replacing a
couple of old leaky ones, as yousaid.
So thank you, Jackie, as always for your insights.
Making a potentially overwhelming topic really
refreshingly practical and simple.
So it's not about an interrogation, it's about a
conversation. And that's how you're going to
(42:04):
get the best ordered outcomes for everybody.
So thank you. Next week, well, yeah, next week
we'll be publishing. Tomorrow we'll be recording.
We are going to be back with another insightful episode.
And this one I'm really excited about.
It's really top of mind for a lot of people at the moment.
(42:25):
It's not just about the face to face how ISO leaders connect
today. I am really keen to bite into
that one, to say it's really topof mind, particularly here with
the election going on as well and work from home and all of
those sorts of things as well. So kind of understand how that
all fits in today's auditing world.
Thank you again, everyone for listening.
(42:46):
As always, please don't forget to subscribe, share this
episode, leave us a review. And until we see you next time,
take care, stay curious and keepleading the stand in.
Bye for now.
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