March 27, 2025 • 70 mins
Dr. Carrie Graham brings over 25 years of expertise in adult workplace learning to this eye-opening conversation about why most corporate training fails to deliver meaningful results. With refreshing candor and profound insights, she challenges conventional approaches that prioritize content over people.
"If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing?" This powerful question cuts to the heart of where training programs go wrong. Graham explains that organizations repeatedly miss the mark by creating content-heavy, performative training that doesn't acknowledge who their workforce actually is as learners. She shares a personal awakening when her own training wasn't achieving results, and instead of blaming participants, she asked why – discovering they lacked time, resources, and sometimes even basic skills needed to implement what she was teaching.
The discussion ventures into how organizations can meaningfully measure training ROI by starting with alignment between training approaches and company vision. Dr Graham emphasizes the critical importance of actually using collected feedback rather than letting it gather dust – a common failure that signals to employees that everything is merely performative. Through compelling stories, including Jesse's brilliant demonstration teaching executives bachata dance steps as a metaphor for unrealistic training expectations, the conversation illuminates how we must rethink support systems after initial training.
Most powerfully, Carrie reveals how her own professional journey evolved through recognizing approximately 4-5 year growth cycles, where boredom signals evolution rather than failure. Her advice on "sitting in the hard thing to understand the hard thing" offers wisdom for both individual growth and organizational transformation. The conversation culminates in a deeply moving reflection on her purpose: being a light for others in both personal and professional contexts.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches learning? Connect with Dr. Graham at http://www.drcarriegraham.com/ and download her free training assessment tool to start identifying where your current approaches might be missing the mark.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcarriegraham
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
He got to go and this job got to go.
Let me say this why would youinvite chaos?
Why would you invite additionalpain?
Why would you invite burnout tosit at your table?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
If you're not thinking about the people, what
the hell are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You have to sit in the hard thing to understand the
hard thing.
When you are obesely,overweight and you're trying to
lose weight, you got to take allthe clothes off and look at it
from all angles.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
What is going on?
Lnm family Coming back at youwith another amazing guest,
super duper accomplished and Ihinted at this before I hit
record.
It's like folks if you want togrow like massively and connect
with super amazing people, starta podcast.
It's a good excuse for agoofball like me to have the
(01:01):
opportunity to speak to super,super accomplished folks.
You're going to be meeting DrKeri Graham.
She's got over 25 years oftraining experience and no,
we're not talking about squatsand burpees, we're talking about
like real professional stuff.
She's got a PhD in adult andworkplace learning, which is a
(01:21):
space that I play around in, butI'm sure I'm going to learn
some things to level up my gamebecause I'm just figuring it out
as I go.
And here's the cool thing sheschools businesses on training
strategies that solve trainingprogram missteps and full
disclosure.
I am probably, or have been,one of those training missteps.
(01:46):
So we're going to get somegoods on the training and all
the other stuff.
And if this is your first timehere, you're listening to the
Learnings and Missteps podcast,where you get to see how real
people just like you are sharingtheir gifts and talents to
leave this world better thanthey found it.
I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Dr
(02:11):
Keri.
Dr Keri, how are you?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
What's up, jesse?
I am so honored to be here withyou and with your audience.
I love all of it.
I am here for all of it andit's one thing to share like, oh
, look at me, look at theprofessional things I've done.
I've made so many missteps andI'm here to share them, like I'm
(02:36):
just ready, let me free myselfof my missteps.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Oh, let's do it.
I will absolve you of all ofthem.
And you know, here's a truth,or maybe an observation from a
personal observation.
I mean, you're a doctor, right,your PhD is not.
It's not a small thing.
I know because I've shared alot of space with another
amazing, accomplished woman whowas working on her EDD, and that
(03:03):
is like life consuming workjust to get to that point.
Of course, sacrifice,commitment, all the things.
But the interesting thing is inmy head, I believe that folks
with PhDs and advanced degreesare maybe come from a greater
than now energy, but so far, theones that I know personally
(03:27):
absolutely not Super cool downpeople ready just to share and
have some communication abouthow to make things better, and
so I applaud you for thehumility and just being real.
That's what it's about.
And what do you think?
What do you say?
We start off with a supersimple question I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I love it, love it all right here it is how does
one measure the roi of training?
Good lord, good lord.
Okay, I need you to repeat thequestion.
Yeah, that came out of nowherehuh, I thought you were going to
say what's your favorite food.
Okay, one more time Say itagain.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So I like to start with the heavy one and then
we'll have fun after that.
I've been in training for along time no official.
Well, I do have a little bit ofeducation on, like how to do it
specifically for adult learners.
Yeah, and I have a lot offriends in this a little bit of
education on, like how to do itspecifically for adult learners
and I have a lot of friends inthe space.
And the thing that's, I wouldsay, hardest or maybe that could
(04:36):
help folks that are in thatspace is the question of return
on investment, because we knowhow impactful training and
development is.
But connecting it to the actualKPIs that the organization is
tracking seems to be the nut.
If people could crack that,they would overcome a lot of
resistance.
That's my assumption, and sothat's where the question comes
(04:57):
from.
Do you have any cheat codes oradvice for folks on how to
connect the impact of thetraining to the KPIs of the
business?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It is a fair question and you're right, it is the one
that everyone wants the answerto and I believe the answer
exists.
I do, I do and here, yeah,here's what it is.
It's not a one size fits allanswer, and what is the answer
for one organization may not bethe answer for another
(05:28):
organization.
So that's the first thing,right, like, we got to all stop
looking for the quick fix andthinking, well, it worked for
so-and-so, it worked forso-and-so, we'll just do the
same thing.
Teams don't even do that, right, they don't run the exact same
plays, they work with what theygot.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I encouragepeople to look at what they're
(05:52):
training for and match it to whothey're training, because
oftentimes people want to getfrom the oh, we're training for
this objective to meet the KPIand that's.
They just keep going from one,from a, expecting to go from A
(06:12):
to C, but they're being thevalue in B and when.
If you continue to keep missingout on the people, right, like,
you build a training but it'snot for the people, it's for the
to meet the KPI You're nevergoing to get a return on your
(06:34):
investment.
That's pretty basic.
If you want a true return onyour investment.
You have to stop lookingoutside of your organization,
you have to look within and youmust acknowledge.
Who are these people not?
Oh, they're middle managers.
Oh, they're only Gen Z.
Oh, they are.
(06:55):
Who are they as people and whoare they as learners?
Why?
I'm going to climb up on myhigh horse right now.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Why in the world?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
why in the world would you create a training that
is content heavy, content heavy.
And it has to be, becausethat's the nature of your
business, your work, and you'representing it in a couple hours,
Just showing it.
But you expect your people.
(07:38):
You might have some newindividuals, new to the
organization, some people whoare in job like role transition
within the organization, somepeople who are in job like role
transition within yourorganization, but yet you expect
them to comprehend all of thisinformation and then make sense
of it on their own and apply itso you can meet your KPI.
That just doesn't make goodsense.
(08:00):
It's not logical.
It is not logical.
It is not logical, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I just have to say Dr Kerry, I'm going to tell you
like you're speaking to my soul.
You can see me dancing andgetting excited over here, right
?
Because am I guilty of drowningpeople with every damn
miscellaneous piece of detailinformation that they might need
, just in case?
Absolutely Like the people thatwent through the first training
(08:26):
I put together, I feel bad forthem.
And then the connection.
I want to share two confessionswith you so you can help folks
understand like, yeah, you seethat out there, maybe I'm just
some psychopath that does itreally wrong.
So first situation, early, earlyon, when I first got into like
training and it was not a formalthing, like I was showing my
(08:48):
friends how I did things at thebar or at a barbecue after hours
, hanging out, right, it wasn'tlike official training, but I
was trying to teach them.
Then it became my job.
So I put a little trainingprogram together, training
(09:09):
program together, and the wordsthat I used was saying you need
to do this so that my job iseasier.
I wasn't saying that precisely,but that was the message you
need to do this to comply withour business objectives.
And so I remember one friend ofmine is like hey, man, like
this is good stuff, but it'slike it's only for you.
What do you mean?
It's for you guys, and so isthat kind of an example of the
(09:33):
bee hitting the bee.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Let's knock it in.
So here's a story, a very shortstory, that really pulled the
veil for me.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So at some point in my career I but before that we
want to do the L&M.
Family member shout out, andthis one goes to Jennifer Lacey,
and y'all, if you know me, knowshe didn't pay me.
She actually gave me this superawesome thought.
And so Jennifer says when Isigned up to the Do the Damn
(10:03):
Thing time management workshop,facilitated by me, jesse, I
thought I would get a couple ofcheat codes to sprinkle into my
planning.
I had no idea he would cause amajor shift in my thinking
around how I approach my goals.
So, jennifer, sister, Iappreciate you, girl, thank you
(10:24):
for going out there and sharingthat note with me.
So when you send me a note,make a comment on one of my
posts.
It doesn't have to be good, itcould be anything.
If it stinks, let me know whatstinks.
That gives me the opportunityto celebrate you in the future.
So share with your people.
Leave some stars, leave somecomments, because I need the
attention.
Leave some stars, leave somecomments because I need the
(10:46):
attention.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
At some point in my career I was a state employee.
Yes, so everyone picture itright.
Yeah 2000, whatever.
So I was a state employee andas a state employee I am a rule
follower, and I attended asexual harassment training along
with two to 300 of mycolleagues my fellow state
(11:12):
employee colleagues and it wasclear we were all in an
auditorium.
It was clear that theinstitution invested some money
to bring in a speaker.
Well, I'm looking around.
I was by myself, but I waslooking around and people are
asleep.
This was when Candy Crush was athing.
They're on their cell phonesplaying games, they're having
(11:37):
side conversations right, and Iwant your listeners to imagine
you've been in that situation.
But here's the thing At thesame time, that organization was
in public litigation aroundsexual harassment.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Now you tell me you corralled all the people, so
that's an expense.
Right, we're going to talkabout ROI.
You've taken people from theirjob, so that is an expense.
You've paid to have a speakeron a topic that clearly you're
presenting on because somethingelse has happened.
(12:18):
That's an expense.
That's an expense.
But you are in public litigationfor a problem that you're
attempting to solve right nowit's not making sense, as the
young people say, make it makesense for me, so it's.
It is another example ofcreating a training that is
(12:41):
performative.
A training that is performativeit's not addressing the issue
in any shape or form and you arestill not meeting your KPI and
you're not getting a return oninvestment.
So that's just a story that Ioften share.
I don't name names to protectothers, but I have also made
(13:06):
mistakes.
When I got into this, my careerstarted in health care, as a not
certified athletic trainer, soI worked clinically, but then,
when I left that, I enterededucation.
Oh, it's a no wonder thosestudents graduated those
undergrads.
Let me tell you, jesse, likeshame on me, I'm embarrassed,
(13:27):
right, like even moment I'membarrassed.
But it's okay that people makemistakes like that.
That is the part of it, right,it's okay to make mistakes.
The key is you learn from themistake.
Don't be like that organizationcontinuing to do the same thing
over and over again oh, it's,you said, perfect word.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's performative, it's about optics.
It's so that we can say we didand mitigate our liability for
something that we're reacting toyes, and it's you're wasting
time interacting to yes, andit's you're wasting time
Organizationally.
Now, personally, I think theequivalent of that is I read 52
(14:13):
books in a year.
Okay, so you read a book a weekand what the hell did you do
with the information?
What was the purpose?
What was the through line ofall the content that you were
consuming?
And we do these things.
For me, it's about optics, it'sabout vanity, it's about being
able to say look what I did,rather than this is what I
(14:34):
contributed.
And I think, and we're going toget to this, but I think that
totally ties to mission andvalues and this sort of really
strategic thinking that coupleswith the training.
But before we get there, I'vedone this and I want to share
this because it's helped me helpexecutives understand the fun
(15:01):
that they bring to the tablewith their unrealistic
expectations.
So I was presenting to a groupof vice presidents from the
central region and I had myspace on the agenda.
What was buzzing around, andthis was back when I had a real
job.
This was years ago.
I don't have a real job now.
And so the buzz was man, and itwas huge.
(15:21):
It was this training the peoplethat went to it.
They called it the brainwashthing.
It got people excited, it wasgood stuff, but it was a whole
week, right, it was a whole weekof super, super intense all day
training.
It was awesome for me, maybenot for everybody.
Anyways, the buzz was Jesse,we're sending these people to
this training, we're taking themoffline to go to the thing.
(15:41):
It's a whole week and they'renot experts at it.
It's still wonky and clunky andright Like.
They still like what the hellis the point of this training if
they're not?
That's OK, I hear you, I hearyou.
So what I did on my littlereport out piece on the agenda
is OK, everybody stand up, I'mgoing to teach you the basic
(16:03):
bachata steps.
So if you're, I'm into Latindancing right, and bachata is
easy One, two, three, yep, one,two, three, left right.
One, two, three.
One, two, three, it's easy.
So I walk them through the baseand they're like what in the
world is this fool doing, comeon.
So they got up and they did it,and and that's okay, we're
(16:26):
gonna play some music.
All right, let's do it to thebeach.
It was less than five minutes,all right.
Now I did my my report out anduh, and then at the end, it's
okay, so I've picked one.
I said executive number oneplease run us through summary, a
review of what you were trainedon before we did.
Before I did my report out andand he's like bro, I don't I
remember one, two, three, but Idon't.
(16:48):
Like I was like, oh, so you'renot ready to be an expert and
train people?
Well, no, it's okay.
Executive number two how aboutyou?
I saw you, you were in therhythm, like you got it.
She said, jess, like I'm notready to teach Like I would
practice alone.
I said, okay, ready to teachlike I would practice alone.
(17:08):
I said, okay, this is exactlythe same situation that you're
imposing on people after goingto training and expecting them
to be expert level teachers ofit.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Say, it again.
Say it again For the people inthe back, jesse.
Say it again.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Say it again, so you can guess I wasn't very popular
after that, but I made someprogress with some of them.
Okay, we understand what you'resaying.
How do we bridge that gap?
I'm like that's the question,here's the idea, here's the
support, the follow-up supportto like the intensive now they
(17:43):
have some context, some somevocabulary, some awareness, but
we need some follow-up supporton actual deployment and doing
and what to expect and so forth.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You know what, jesse?
You got it, whatever.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You don't need it, you got it.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Eat whatever.
You don't need it.
You got it Honestly and that'swhat I tell people.
It's not about.
I mean it is, but it's notreally.
The focus shouldn't be on thecontent.
The content, that's not it.
Where people get it wrong isthey don't focus on the people.
That's the first thing.
Even if they focus on thepeople and they got the content,
it often stops there, to yourpoint.
(18:27):
It stops right there.
What they don't do is follow itthrough and work on confidence,
competence, application.
Once you can move peoplethrough to that point exactly
what you were saying you got toget them to where they're
confident and competent to dothe thing.
(18:49):
That's it.
But if we take it at a highlevel, jesse, that's all about
vision and strategy and that'snot where people want to sit
right now.
People want to go and do thosethings, but they don't want to
take time and sit in aconference room and say, okay,
just, fellow decision makers, weneed a strategy around this.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Okay, so I know that's a super deep subject and
we already poked at it twice,but for the L&M family members
out there, what's the starterkit?
What do you need to be notdoing?
How do people need to bethinking about this session,
this strategy session around?
What's the strategy?
What's the alignment with thebusiness and the intended or
(19:37):
targeted outcome of training anddevelopment?
You got any easy pointers thatyou see folks miss or overlook,
take for granted all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Okay, I do, but before I get there, jesse, you
have an invitation to my dinnertable.
My husband and I would love tohave you for dinner.
I'm just going to say itbecause the conversation Okay, I
love food.
I love food.
Okay, so, and the reason Iextend the invitation is because
you want to get deep and youwant to have the deep
conversations and I love it.
(20:10):
So my recommendation forleaders who are saying, okay,
let's do this strategy, here'ssome things to think about.
Think about your organizationalvision and mission.
That's the first thing.
What does it say?
If, at any point, you have apoint about the people in it,
(20:35):
that vision needs to be in yourstrategy.
That vision needs to be a partof your training as well.
If in your vision, it sayscommunity, the stories around
community training that is builton community learning and
learning, hoops and sociallearning, communities of
practice, that needs to be in it.
(20:57):
So and I could go on and on butI would say the first thing to
start thinking about is whatdoes our vision, our corporate
organizational vision, say?
What does it say and is itreflected in our training as a
whole and in our existingstrategy, if you have one?
That's the first thing.
Yeah, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
It's gigantic and the reason I say it's gigantic for
two reasons.
And like anybody outside of theconstruction industry, I'm not
talking about you because that'snot for two reasons.
And like anybody outside of theconstruction industry, I'm not
talking about you because that'snot where I swim.
But in the constructionindustry I know tons of
organizations that either don'thave a clear vision, mission,
values, which that's not bad,because my money says the
(21:41):
majority of businesses out theredon't.
But hey, you're making it right.
Don't let any fool start abusiness.
I'm proof of that.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
If you want to have.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I guess what I'm hearing is when you want to
amplify the investment oftraining and development, where
to start is vision, missionvalues.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and that's it, and it's not creating them.
So I would hope you already gotit.
I would hope so, so let'sassume you have them.
If you're thinking about wheredo we start with our strategy,
this is really high level,really high level.
It should be.
Well, what does it say?
(22:22):
It's our guiding principle andit doesn't mean that it solely
guides our revenue.
It should be.
Well, what does it say?
It's our guiding principle andit doesn't mean that it solely
guides our revenue.
It should guide everything thatleads to the revenue.
So I would look at that andbecause it should be reflected
in your strategy and in yourtraining in general.
The other thing that I havethis is the first conversation I
(22:47):
have with my clients time andtime again is you need to get a
crystal clear understanding ofwho your workforce is.
Who are they as people?
You cannot keep building atraining or establishing quote
(23:09):
unquote pipeline, leadershippipelines and leadership
mentoring programs when youdon't understand who these
people are, what their needs arenot what your needs are, but
what are their needs.
What your needs are, but whatare their needs.
So I would say, if you'rethinking about strategy, like
(23:34):
high level strategy, from thetime someone signs the agreement
of working for you, the inksigns all the way through
exiting you want to think aboutyour vision and mission and who
are the people, who are they aslearners?
You have to.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Powerful.
If you're not thinking aboutthe people, what the hell are
you doing?
That's it.
Find some YouTube links and letthem watch videos.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That's it.
So I was at a breakfast thismorning and a guy who is the
president of the closesthospital to me was also at that
meeting.
Oddly enough, we went toundergrad together.
Oddly enough, we were justchatting, and I asked him.
I said what's your approach tosupporting and returning your
(24:18):
team?
And he was like well, I've donethis for our hospital workers
and this.
And I said, right there, Idon't need to talk to you as a
potential client, because youview and understand that your
workforce as your number oneresource, your number one asset,
keep on.
(24:50):
And I've said this before keeptreating people nasty and not
supporting them and notuplifting and nurturing them,
you will continue to have aturnover issue.
You will continue to have aproblem.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh, I love it.
So your people are not theproblem, they're the answer.
Yes, and when you startbehaving that way, the thing the
tide will turn, it will, itwill.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It will.
I've seen it time and timeagain, and so here's here's an
example, and it's a mistake thatI made and I learned from it
and I'm happy to share it.
So I was doing a very longseries of trainings with a group
of individuals, and every timeI would go to meet with them,
(25:42):
they were not prepared in theway that I expected.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And I was so frustrated and so at the
beginning, right like I wouldjust keep pushing and it wasn't
happening.
So one day I went to them and Isaid I don't understand, why is
it that you are not preparedwhen we meet every?
time we meet, and so I need youto help me understand.
(26:07):
I had drew a lot of assumptionsabout this group of people, a
lot of assumptions.
What they told me was I havethis obligation outside of this
workshop or this series andthese other obligations, and it
is keep.
I don't have the time in theday to do what you're asking.
(26:31):
A number of them said that.
A few others said I don't knowhow to do what you're asking me
to do, just period.
Don't know how to do whatyou're asking me to do, just
period.
I don't know how.
And you keep asking me to do itand I want to do it, but I just
don't know how.
Fair enough.
Someone else, a couple otherpeople, said I don't have access
(26:52):
to those resources and, jesse,when I tell you, I was humbled
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Oh, I bet.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I just stood there.
There was no blame, like noself them.
No one was blaming.
We were having just a candidconversation about what's the
problem?
Why is it this working?
Us working out and given whatthey were all saying, and then
one person would say somethingand someone else would agree oh
(27:26):
yeah, I'm struggling in that waytoo.
I realized, damn, carrie, likeyou got it all wrong.
You made a bunch of assumptions.
You assume that people have theresources, you assume that they
had the time, you assume thatthey had the time, you assume
that they had the interest, andso you were pushing based on
assumptions as opposed to trulyunderstanding who they are and
(27:53):
what their needs are.
So that totally changed it forme and I became a better
educator.
I became a better facilitator.
Quite honestly, I became abetter person and I have
instituted that.
I've encouraged people as aconsultant.
I've said you have to make itabout them, it's not about you.
(28:14):
Who are they?
And time again, my clientsalways say, carrie, I never
thought of that.
And when we're done, they'relike man, that was it right
there, that was it.
Thank you for sharing that, butit came out of my mistake.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, oh, I love that and that's the value.
Right Of the missteps, yeah,when we pay attention to them.
Now, what I want to point outthat you did that seems duh, but
no, it's not, because we rarelydo it.
You said, okay, the outcomethat I want is not happening.
I keep telling them what to doand I keep getting the same
(28:54):
outcome.
So the system was designedperfectly to produce the outcome
you were having.
Telling them to change didn'timpact the outcome.
So you said let me find out why, let me ask and, more
importantly, listen yes, why.
What's struggling, what is thebarrier and contributing to the
(29:15):
break in the system?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And I'm with you.
I've been there.
We're like man, I suck.
I can't believe I've beenberating y'all this whole time.
I should like just as dumb.
I'm not saying you, I'm sayingme.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
No, I was saying the same thing.
When I got home that day, I waslike you idiot, come on, do
better, do better.
And now I can say I do betterand it's because of that, and
something you said right.
You said that I listened.
I did.
However, jesse, let's talkabout your listeners.
How many of you collect surveys?
(29:53):
How many of you did assessments?
And you're sitting on all thisdata and that's where it stops.
You're sitting on the data.
You are using the data to makeinformed decisions again about
(30:13):
the strategy.
Don't make these decisions inreaction to well, how is it
going to get us to the KPI?
If you took the time to surveyyour workforce, you need to sit
down with the data let it sinkin.
Check your pride at the doorbecause it's going to hurt.
(30:36):
Make it make sense and thenmake decisions based on what you
see.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, my goodness, I love it, and you're right.
So many people out thereorganizations and even
individuals gather all kinds ofsurvey data and don't do squat.
And for me I'm like wait aminute, what am I filling this
out for?
What are we going to do with it?
And for me I'm like wait aminute, what am I filling this
out for?
What are we going to do with it?
(31:06):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I was like well, I know you want me to fill out the
survey, but what are you goingto do with it?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I don't care, I'm not worried about somebody judging
me, but are you going to use it?
And if you can answer, yeah,we're going to use it for X, y,
z.
Okay, cool, I'll fill it out Ifyou say, well, it's because
they told us we got to do it.
Guess what.
I ain't filling it out becauseyou're just wasting my time,
absolutely and you're not goingto do anything.
And you keep repeating that.
And what are you signaling toyour people?
That everything is performative, everything is weak sauce and
they get further and furtherdisengaged.
(31:34):
Oh my God, all right, dr Kerry.
So, folks, if you can't tellshe got some game and so shy,
but I do remember them and Iwanted to go.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And my mother even a couple of times was like don't
you want to go, I'll pay for it.
I was too shy.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I was like okay, so, and I love that, and can you
guess, I was shy too.
I was in the middle of thefloor, I had my dance routine
with my buddies and we turned itup.
So, but back then, the shy days, right, when people were out
there messing around, were youcommitted fully?
Was it super clear to you thatyou were going to be a PhD in
(32:35):
organizational development,training, all the magical things
you're doing now?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
No, organizational development, training, all the
magical things you're doing now.
No, where I am today was neverearly on part of my goal.
It is truly divinely ordained.
I firmly believe that.
So short story.
As a really shy kid, I wantedto be an attorney.
(33:01):
I did, I wanted to be a lawyer.
But my best friend at the timesaid, carrie, you'll never be a
good lawyer because you don'tlike to argue.
She was right and so I was like,yeah, that's not for me, that's
not for me.
But so I ended up going toundergrad.
I have a degree in sport, abachelor's degree in sports
medicine.
I wanted to be the athletictrainer for the Georgetown Hoyas
(33:23):
men's basketball team and workfor Thompson in the day.
That was what I wanted.
I didn't work for Georgetown.
I did have a chance to meetJohn Thompson Sr, but I was on
that path and my transition fromDivision One Athletics to the
classroom.
(33:44):
That's not something that Ihave wanted and it was an
opportunity and I said, yes, ok,getting the PhD actually was
out of frustration.
Really it really was, because Iwas at this sexual harassment
training as a health careprovider, I had to go to
(34:06):
conferences every year tomaintain my board certification
and what I found was, while Iwas growing, not only in my
skillset but in my goals, mypersonal goals, career goals the
conferences weren't meeting mein that regard.
(34:27):
And because of that right, Iwas spending money, I was using
my vacation time.
I was growing more and morefrustrated and I was getting
closer to like late thirties,forties, like why is this the
case?
I don't.
I'm frustrated.
I'm frustrated.
(34:47):
And it was a growingconversation among my colleagues
.
They were feeling the same wayand that's when the opportunity
presented that, okay, I think Imight need to pursue some other
coursework or degree.
And that's how this came around.
The very first course that Itook was workplace learning and
(35:10):
I honestly, jesse, I felt like Iwas in therapy every Tuesday of
the week.
I kept saying to myself yes,everything we were reading about
projects.
I was like this is me, this isme, this is my experience.
And that's what really helpedme realize we have a problem,
(35:31):
and it's not just in thiscountry, it's pervasive
worldwide.
And I've listened to the call,or I've answered the call that
God has laid out before me, ofCarrie, you have an opportunity.
I've prepared you with skillsand experiences and a growing
(35:52):
passion to support businesses sothat their people are filled up
and not depleted.
People are filled up and notdepleted.
I've been the employee who waslike why am I at this training,
why am I here and angry?
(36:12):
And then I went home and I wasangry and frustrated.
I do my work for them.
I do my work for the person sothat they can go home to their
loved ones and be full andpresent, so that they can
participate in their communityand be excited and that when
(36:32):
they are alone they don't feelweighed down.
They actually feel inspired.
Weighed down, they actuallyfeel inspired.
That's all I want.
When the good Lord calls mehome and I take my last breath
and I have to give an accountfor my life, I want to say God,
Father, I used everything yougave me to make the lives better
(36:57):
of others.
That's all I'll be able to say.
That is all I want to be ableto say.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Amazing, oh, my goodness.
Okay, this is going to be aweird question, and also I just
want to recognize and folks ifyou didn't catch the theme there
is, what I heard is what givesyou fulfillment is serving
others, improving the experienceof other human beings, which I
(37:28):
think is a super.
It's the keystone.
It doesn't have to be trainingand organizational
transformation, it just has tobe something that contributes to
the life of others.
To have the fulfillment andbeing able to show up at the end
and say I did it, you gave itto me and I did it.
Now what's next?
(37:51):
So I love that.
Now you mentioned you're in yourmind you were going to be an
attorney, and then your friendssay wait a minute, maybe not.
And so you went down a path andthen you saw another path and
then maybe kept going downdeeper down that path.
So here's the weird question Doyou feel like you have a cycle
(38:13):
of time in which you needsomething heavier to chew on, or
a new mission, a new phase ofgrowth to explore?
And if you do, what's thatduration?
I'll give you an example Backin the day before I became a
house cat, I could see thatevery three to five years.
(38:35):
I needed like I got promotions,I take on a new big giant
challenge and then I'd startgetting bored and I'd start
causing problems and getting introuble.
And then I got a new challengeand it was like a three to five
year cycle.
It sped up since then.
So I'm wondering do you see asimilar pattern in on your path?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
looking back, that is a great question.
I don't think it's an odd oneat all and it was something that
I realized, maybe 15 years agois that it is in fact I'm on, I
am on, like you a three to fiveyear, more like a four to five
year path or cycle where Irealized, ah, I'm bored and what
(39:17):
it is.
I realize, oh, I'm bored andwhat it is.
I want to be very clear,because I've worked with young
people and I've seen this happentime and again.
I want to be clear.
That is not a bad thing and,quite frankly, you would hope
that that occurs.
And the reason I say that isevery day that passes, we all
(39:43):
continue to evolve and get olderand if you are not growing in
some capacity, something's wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Something is wrong and when I realized that was, I
was working with collegestudents, and at first in
Division One athletics.
It's great.
The thing that evolves is thesports world Right.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
But when, and so it wasn't really an issue.
But when I got in the classroomI remember very distinctly I
got to a point where I said, wow, they keep being 18, but I keep
getting older, and that for meit was mind blowing because I'm
(40:34):
like why is it getting harder?
They're still 18, right, yeah,they're still eight.
And I kept telling myselfthey're still getting 18.
Why is it harder?
Why is it harder?
And what I wasn't realizing is,yes, they are 18, but I am 30,
(40:55):
35, 40, 45, while they're still18.
So I use that as an example,that as we age, as we have more
life experience, as we have morestruggles and successes in life
.
I would hope that people want achange and the change feeds
(41:19):
different parts of their lives.
I again, I'll be very honestwith you, jesse I have.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
My faith has always been a veryprivate part of my life and,
(41:40):
given where I worked separationof church and state, and that's
just how I lived.
As I've gotten older and hadvarious life experiences, the
value of my faith coming to theforefront has become more
important to me.
(42:00):
So I've evolved very privatelyand very intimately, but that
has impacted my work.
And so to your originalquestion my work has evolved and
me wanting to solve likedigging in hardcore and deep and
not taking the easy path andworking with people on their
(42:24):
strategies is because my faithhas evolved and it's pushing me.
It's pushing me to say, carrie,be a better person for others,
show up stronger and harder forothers, be courageous for others
.
Show up stronger and harder forothers.
Be courageous for others.
Do the thing that'suncomfortable for you, but it's
(42:45):
going to help and support others.
So, yes, I do.
Every so often I get bored, andit's not simply eh, I've done
that before I don't want to.
It's for me.
It's not about that.
It is I am growing and evolvingand I'm honoring that evolution
(43:07):
.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Ultimately, oh, that's beautifully said.
You're growing into yourconfidence, you're evolving into
it and you're honoring itbecause, yes, that's the
ultimate.
And I also, like me personallyI recognize there was a hell.
That was 20 years of my lifewhere I was like playing the
(43:30):
same year over and over and overagain, and that was largely
because of the life that I haddesigned Right.
I had enormous debt, I had allthese other things that, like, I
didn't have space to likewander and roam and explore.
I just had to go make thatmoney to pay the bill so they
wouldn't repo the truck.
Like for real, real life, andI'm sharing that.
(43:51):
Folks, if you're not in thislike rapid cycle, that's okay,
yeah, yeah.
But when you are, when youstart seeing it and sensing it
to use your word, honor it,because it is the calling, it is
the like in my brain, I thinkof those little signals that say
hey, jess, look at this, payattention to this, there's this
thing you should explore.
(44:11):
That's the whispers, right?
The whispers are telling me hey, there's something greater out
there.
You just got to figure out howto be better to do it.
Now, on the other side of thecoin, I know several people that
have grand ideas.
They start down the path andthere's always friction.
Right, because we know change.
(44:33):
There's friction with change,regardless of whether it's
positive, requested or imposed.
It's always pain.
So they start down this paththinking, hey, I see another
vision, I'm evolving.
And then, six months later, man, that was too hard.
They pick up another path.
What guidance would you offersomebody that's not prepared to
(44:58):
apply the discipline andsacrifice to overcome the
friction?
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Man, that's good, good one.
I would say a couple of things,and the first that comes to
mind is that did it for me earlyon in my life is what's the
alternative for me early on inmy life is what's the
alternative?
And it's I'm uncomfortable justto hear myself say it Honestly.
(45:29):
I think I'm getting nauseousthinking about it.
Right, I really am like what'sthe alternative?
So when I was an undergrad, Iwas in this athletic training
program and it got really.
It was hard.
It was a hard year for a lot ofreasons and I was like I don't
want to do this anymore.
And all of my friends wereolder, so they were seniors, and
(45:51):
I remember distinctly it wasthe day, the last day, to change
your major change your course.
So the clock is ticking.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
And I'm like I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And they kept saying okay, carrie, if you don't want
to do it, that's fine, but whatwill you do?
And I couldn't answer it.
I was like I don't know whatwas the alternative.
I didn't have one and so I putI was like this is it?
And so I kept pushing when Ihad to take I don't think I've
(46:29):
ever publicly said this, I knowI haven't publicly said this and
a lot of people oh my God,exclusive.
I don't want to say it, but I'mgoing to.
Oh my God, exclusive.
I don't want to say it, but I'mgoing to.
So I actually.
So I was board certified.
I didn't pass the first time,and passing the first time was a
(46:52):
huge deal.
I didn't pass it and I rememberthinking what are you going to
do, carrie?
What are you going to do?
And that's what are you goingto do, carrie, what are you
going to do?
What are you going to do?
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't haveany other choice.
There was an alternative.
As Kevin Hart would say, all myeggs were in this basket.
(47:15):
That has followed me over theyears is what's going to?
What's the alternative, carrie?
What are you going to do?
You've invested and people say.
Coming from the world ofathletics, people say, oh,
quitting is bad.
No, sometimes I was about toswear, jesse Sometimes quitting
(47:38):
is the right decision, dependingon what the situation is.
I would say for people who areat that place where they don't
know how to handle the friction,it's understanding what your
alternative is.
There is a consequence and abenefit to all of it, and you
(47:58):
have to understand both to makethe right decision.
There are days for me as aconsultant when it's not.
It's not gravy.
I'm going to be honest.
Right, like it's not gravy.
I just want to be like screwall of this, lord, give me
something else.
I'm not the one for this.
This ain't easy, like they said.
I know you don't make mistakes,but I don't know if I'm the
(48:19):
right one for this.
This ain't easy, like they saidit was.
I know you don't make mistakes,but I don't know if I'm the
right one.
I don't know.
But I always take time aloneand sit with it.
Sit with the frustration, sitwith not having confidence, the
(48:40):
doubt.
Sit with all frustration, sitwith not having confidence, the
doubt.
Sit with all of it, acknowledgeit for what it is and then move
forward.
And for me, when I sit in it inthe muck and mess of it, for
people who've ever been deep indebt, you can't not look at the
(49:01):
numbers and think you're goingto get out of it.
You got to sit in it.
When you are obesely overweightand you're trying to lose weight
.
You got to take all the clothesoff and look at it from all
angles.
You have to sit in the hardthing to understand the hard
(49:21):
thing.
And when you understand thehard thing, you can change the
hard thing or you can moveforward through the hard thing.
Yes, and businesses leaders,you have to do the same thing.
You have to sit in the muck andthe mire and the hardness of it
.
You have to.
You have to sit in the muck andthe mire and the hardness of it
(49:41):
.
You have to.
You have to.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Beautiful, excellent, profound advice, introspection.
And first, thank you for yourvulnerability and sharing that
thing.
Like I'm excited I got a littlespecial treat out of this
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I don't think my husband knows I got a little
special treat out of this,honestly.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
I don't think my husband knows it, jesse, tell
you that I think I'm going tohave to go tell him.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I got to go tell him.
I don't think he knows.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Well, and I love that you pointed out like Because
and I'm not going to do a goodjob of this, but I am, if you
can't tell I'm like superintense and quitting is not an
idea I subscribe to or advocatefor, but I know there is value
in quitting and so, just forclarity, folks, I'm not saying
(50:34):
don't quit and keep doing it,because I've tried that, I've
tried it in relationships, I'vetried it.
Tried that.
I've tried it in relationships,I've tried it in jobs, I've
tried it in hobbies.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And, like the common thread is because I'm obsessive,
I end up losing joy.
Yes, I end up underserving theperson in front of me because
I'm not going to quit.
I'm going to figure it out, I'mgoing to do this thing.
And the pattern revealed itself, like I said, in hobbies, in
(51:07):
relationships, in jobs andassignments, it was the same
thing I got.
So because I wasn't going toquit.
I can't quit, I'm not going toquit.
What are they going to sayabout me if I quit?
I'm not a quitter.
Well, and then I'm just likeabusing myself.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Eventually I figured out a fool.
Like it's stealing joy from you.
It's taking so much energy foryou to get good at the thing
that you're neglecting everybodyand everything else.
Yes, time to quit.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Now, on the other end of it, here's something I do.
Tell me what you think about it.
When I decide to start a new andthis is this is real new Like,
we'll say, the last four or fiveyears of my life, like when I
started this podcast, I didn'tknow what I was doing and I also
don't want to start somethingand not at least get the lesson
(51:59):
which you said right.
What is the lesson in thisthing?
It may not be your career stillnot making money off this thing
, but I know what the lesson is.
Right, I can connect withamazing people, and so what I
did and this is what I do now,even with new ideas, it's going
to be six months or one year.
Am I willing and prepared to dothe work for six months or a
(52:22):
year with absolutely no returnon investment, no recognition,
no likes, no shares, no comments?
If the answer is yes, then I'mgoing to do it.
If the answer is, I'm not surewhy even start, right, but six
months to anything less than sixmonths, and I use the six month
(52:46):
time block for things that I'mgoing to be paying money on.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Like a year.
If it's just my time, it's justmy time.
But if it's cash girl, like Idon't like spending money that
way.
If it's cash girl like I don'tlike spending money that way.
But I got it because I knowthat the start there's always
friction, it's always hard, it'sdifficult and reflecting back
(53:15):
six months to a year is enoughtime to pull data points and
evaluate the signals, to say,okay, this is flatlining, this
is declining, this is going up,and then make a decision to add
time to that.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I think that's fair and I think it's healthy to give
yourself six months to a yearto experience, to explore, to
learn some lessons.
And here's the thing aboutlearning lessons that I've
always told people learn.
(53:46):
That that's not for you, that'sa lesson.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
That's it.
That's it, yes.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
A hundred percent, and that's a very valuable
lesson that you need to have inorder to go in the direction or
do the thing that's going tofeed you.
I tried that as well when Istarted consulting full time.
I had another area of work thatI was doing and I was like
(54:12):
uh-uh, uh-uh, this.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I did.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Like you said, the idea is nice and I can serve in
that way, but for me the lessonwas it's not feeding my soul.
Yes so what's the point?
So I let that go but.
I think that's fair because andthe reason I say it's fair is
(54:37):
because you go into itacknowledging this might be
challenging and hard, but I knowthere's an end point and at the
end point or the timeline, soit's at the six month mark or at
the year mark that's when yousay, yes, let me assess it.
I'm going to assess is it good,it good, bad and different.
(54:58):
Okay, I got my answer.
What do I do now?
Yes, and that's the thing.
You have to have a point ofassessment to determine the next
path that's it.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
That's yep.
Is there a change in direction?
Is there a tweak?
Do I get off the pack?
Speaker 1 (55:16):
look, even have you evolved in that time going back
to the 18 and gone.
Are you evolving?
In that time, did your lifecircumstance change?
Fine, and so now it's notpossible or it's not feasible,
or did things evolve and you'relike this is it?
I found it yes.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Clarity oh my God.
Well, I just got to say that,dr Carey, you just gave all my
exes affirmation when theydecided that's not for me when
they kicked me down the road.
But so thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
I'm going to say the same.
And to your point aboutrelationships there,
(56:36):
no-transcript.
Life is so precious when westrip away our titles and the
things that we have, and all ofit is about experiencing the
world around us.
It is an opportunity for beautyand it is hard, and so why
(57:02):
would we invite and I tell myfriends this, why would you
invite chaos, why would youinvite additional pain, why
would you invite burnout to sitat your table?
You would, you would not, youwould not.
(57:23):
So it is your responsibility.
We're not having it.
We're not having it, and it'shard.
Like you talk about the momentof friction, and I think our
missteps help us, help reveal ifsomething is in fact the place
(57:46):
we need to be or not.
And our mistakes, our missteps,are not bad things.
They're not.
They are simply a part of lifethat help us gain understanding
for this beautiful thing that wecall life.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Oh, that's gotta be a clip.
I know it's gonna renee.
You need to cut that out.
That was awesome, all right.
So I have one softball closingquestion.
Okay, but before I get to that,you mentioned that you're
consulting.
You have your own business.
Would you mind letting peopleknow if they don't already love
you?
Then they could just move on.
(58:22):
But the ones that are fallingin love with it and say, man, I
need to get in contact with DrCarrie here.
How do you serve and how dopeople get ahold of you?
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah, thank you so much for that opportunity, jesse
.
So I am committed to servingsmall and mid-sized businesses
that don't have an L&D team butthey want to get.
They want to serve theirworkforce well, and so I can
help you with your training anddevelopment strategy.
(58:54):
I can help you with puttingtogether a training program and
pipeline that really serves yourworkforce.
So that's the place I sit andthat's where I'm committed to
working.
People can find me atdrcarygramcom or on LinkedIn all
those things but the thing thatI encourage people to think
(59:18):
about is I require you to thinkdifferently.
I am not going to say this is aone size fits all, you have to
do it.
Oh, she has a PhD.
She's going to tell me do itthis way.
We're going to do some deep,intimate work in terms of what
data are you sitting on and notusing?
(59:38):
Why are you not using it?
That's a question that we'renot going to speak that onto the
road, right.
But really, looking at, who areyour people?
Oh, okay, so if these are yourworkforce, who are they as
learners?
Oh, you don't know.
Why don't you know who they are?
as entrepreneurs, so anyone thatreally wants to be right by
(01:00:00):
their workforce from a trainingperspective and is willing to
pull the curtain back and saythis is really where we are,
we're not proud of it, we're nothappy about it.
We really don't want the publicto know.
I'm okay with that and pleaseknow that I view that as an
(01:00:23):
invitation into your house.
It is intimate and it isprivate and I honor that, and so
I will ask hard questions andpush people to do things.
But it is all in the spirit oflet's make you better so that
your people are better, and ifthey are better, your business
(01:00:43):
is going to be better.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
It's plain and simple .
Oh my God, all right, I willabsolutely make sure that your
links are in the show notes sopeople can get ahold of you,
connect with you, and I like weconnected via LinkedIn and I'm
telling you like, if you're notsure, just connect with Dr
Carrie.
On LinkedIn you post right Likeperspectives and ideas that,
(01:01:08):
ooh, I could go do that rightnow.
I could go try that right now.
I don't need the intimateintervention.
Or maybe you're just not readyand you want to test the waters.
I know you post stuff that'shelpful and applicable to people
in business.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I also want to say one of the things that in this
to this, to your point, likepeople may not be ready and
they're wondering.
So you've heard like we've hadthis crazy conversation, but I,
on my website, there is, in fact, a free assessment.
It's a training and it toucheson all the things you and I have
(01:01:41):
been talking about, and so it'san opportunity for people to
just look at it and say, oh,okay, we weren't thinking about
these things, or we weren'tthinking about these things, or
we got this part, okay, and sothere's six categories of of
areas that that really need tobe considered when you're
(01:02:03):
working to improve on yourtraining program and that's on
my website, so you can just goand download it, and I don't
want anything from you for it,except for you to do better oh,
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
All right.
So we're absolutely going tomake sure the assessment is
available and I'm going to bebrainstorming on how to blow
that up because of the dualbenefit right.
It'll benefit the individualthat's doing the assessment and
it'll benefit my new friend, DrCarrie.
It may turn into a need, solet's blow that bad boy up.
Okay, Are you ready for thelittle kindergarten?
(01:02:39):
Simple, easy question.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Well, for one, I don't trust you on that, but I'm
ready.
I don't trust you.
I don't trust you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Good, you already know me, you already know me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
But I'm ready, I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
I love it All right, and again, you've been super
gracious with your time, yourinsight, even the vulnerability
of sharing a new, new secret I'mgoing to.
I feel like I need to gettissues for this answer, because
I think your answer is going tobe profound and impactful.
And so here's the question whatis the promise you are intended
(01:03:13):
to be?
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Yeah, I think we do need some tissue, jesse.
I think we do need some tissue,and the reason I say that is
because that question is makingme look at parts of who I am
that I don't often look at andacknowledge when you say the
(01:03:38):
word promise.
So when I came into this world,there was a promise on my life,
and I think the world, ourexperiences, our doubt,
weaknesses are, doubt, cloudwhat the promise is, and I have
(01:04:02):
been on a journey to find thatand I didn't use the word
(01:04:24):
promise.
But now that you say it, that'swhat I've been looking for and
in my own quiet way, the promisethat's on my life is to be a
light in others and, yeah, Ineed a tissue.
I don't think I ever realizedthat until you asked that
question, and so I am sothankful that you asked me that
question because I can tell thathow my life has evolved,
(01:04:46):
particularly in the last sixyears, that I've really
committed to being a light forother people, in in, in moments
that may seem insignificant tome going to get my bring my
trash to the curb in the morningand seeing a little girl with a
(01:05:10):
hijab on and she's the only onefor me to say to her I love
your hijab, it's so beautiful,like you.
And for her to turn to me andsay you know what this is, thank
you.
I know that I put light intoher life in that moment.
For me to see an aging womanand to tell her I absolutely
(01:05:36):
love how beautiful your grayhair is.
That is why I am here and Ithink oftentimes I overlook that
.
I overlook that I look formoments to offer that to other
people.
But I think I'm realizing thatis my purpose and the promise
(01:05:57):
that's on my life that I canoffer other people.
So thank you so much, jesse,thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
It's amazing, thank you, and I'm getting chills over
here and fighting back thetears and folks go forth and do
likewise.
Right, what you just talkedabout is simple human stuff
helping somebody else understandthat you see them.
Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
And it's not a huge investment.
It's recognizing somethingabout them and helping them see
the greatness that you see.
So, wow, thank you.
Did you have fun?
Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
I did have fun.
Wow, thank you.
Did you have fun?
I did have fun, Jesse, but Ialso to your point that you just
made to your listeners.
I said something to you beforeyou hit record, but I want to
say it publicly.
I said thank you for beingJesse Hernandez and for being an
(01:07:00):
incredibly kind, professionalman of Latino descent who's
taken up space publicly onLinkedIn and in the world.
That must be acknowledged.
I am so incredibly proud to seeyour face, to hear your voice
(01:07:26):
in all of it, in all of what youbring.
It is so important and memaking a comment to a child on
the way to school, a stranger atthe grocery store.
They matter to thoseindividuals and my prayer is
that it matters to you, that I,in the space that you're holding
(01:07:48):
for me, that I equallyacknowledge who you are and what
you are doing.
It is important.
It is so incredibly importantand I pray that others
acknowledge that as well.
Jesse, I'm so proud of you forbeing here and this is our first
time actually meetingface-to-face, but I am just so
(01:08:10):
thankful for you.
I'm so thankful for you.
Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Oh my goodness, the feeling is mutual, thank you.
He got to go and this job got to go.
Let me say this why would youinvite chaos?
Why would you invite additionalpain?
Why would you invite burnout tosit at your table?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
If you're not thinking about the people, what
the hell are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:20):
You have to sit in the hard thing to understand the
hard thing.
When you are obesely,overweight and you're trying to
lose weight, you got to take allthe clothes off and look at it
from all angles.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
What is going on?
Lnm family Coming back at youwith another amazing guest,
super duper accomplished and Ihinted at this before I hit
record.
It's like folks if you want togrow like massively and connect
with super amazing people, starta podcast.
It's a good excuse for agoofball like me to have the
(01:01):
opportunity to speak to super,super accomplished folks.
You're going to be meeting DrKeri Graham.
She's got over 25 years oftraining experience and no,
we're not talking about squatsand burpees, we're talking about
like real professional stuff.
She's got a PhD in adult andworkplace learning, which is a
(01:21):
space that I play around in, butI'm sure I'm going to learn
some things to level up my gamebecause I'm just figuring it out
as I go.
And here's the cool thing sheschools businesses on training
strategies that solve trainingprogram missteps and full
disclosure.
I am probably, or have been,one of those training missteps.
(01:46):
So we're going to get somegoods on the training and all
the other stuff.
And if this is your first timehere, you're listening to the
Learnings and Missteps podcast,where you get to see how real
people just like you are sharingtheir gifts and talents to
leave this world better thanthey found it.
I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Dr
(02:11):
Keri.
Dr Keri, how are you?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
What's up, jesse?
I am so honored to be here withyou and with your audience.
I love all of it.
I am here for all of it andit's one thing to share like, oh
, look at me, look at theprofessional things I've done.
I've made so many missteps andI'm here to share them, like I'm
(02:36):
just ready, let me free myselfof my missteps.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Oh, let's do it.
I will absolve you of all ofthem.
And you know, here's a truth,or maybe an observation from a
personal observation.
I mean, you're a doctor, right,your PhD is not.
It's not a small thing.
I know because I've shared alot of space with another
amazing, accomplished woman whowas working on her EDD, and that
(03:03):
is like life consuming workjust to get to that point.
Of course, sacrifice,commitment, all the things.
But the interesting thing is inmy head, I believe that folks
with PhDs and advanced degreesare maybe come from a greater
than now energy, but so far, theones that I know personally
(03:27):
absolutely not Super cool downpeople ready just to share and
have some communication abouthow to make things better, and
so I applaud you for thehumility and just being real.
That's what it's about.
And what do you think?
What do you say?
We start off with a supersimple question I love it.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I love it, love it all right here it is how does
one measure the roi of training?
Good lord, good lord.
Okay, I need you to repeat thequestion.
Yeah, that came out of nowherehuh, I thought you were going to
say what's your favorite food.
Okay, one more time Say itagain.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
So I like to start with the heavy one and then
we'll have fun after that.
I've been in training for along time no official.
Well, I do have a little bit ofeducation on, like how to do it
specifically for adult learners.
Yeah, and I have a lot offriends in this a little bit of
education on, like how to do itspecifically for adult learners
and I have a lot of friends inthe space.
And the thing that's, I wouldsay, hardest or maybe that could
(04:36):
help folks that are in thatspace is the question of return
on investment, because we knowhow impactful training and
development is.
But connecting it to the actualKPIs that the organization is
tracking seems to be the nut.
If people could crack that,they would overcome a lot of
resistance.
That's my assumption, and sothat's where the question comes
(04:57):
from.
Do you have any cheat codes oradvice for folks on how to
connect the impact of thetraining to the KPIs of the
business?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
It is a fair question and you're right, it is the one
that everyone wants the answerto and I believe the answer
exists.
I do, I do and here, yeah,here's what it is.
It's not a one size fits allanswer, and what is the answer
for one organization may not bethe answer for another
(05:28):
organization.
So that's the first thing,right, like, we got to all stop
looking for the quick fix andthinking, well, it worked for
so-and-so, it worked forso-and-so, we'll just do the
same thing.
Teams don't even do that, right, they don't run the exact same
plays, they work with what theygot.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing I encouragepeople to look at what they're
(05:52):
training for and match it to whothey're training, because
oftentimes people want to getfrom the oh, we're training for
this objective to meet the KPIand that's.
They just keep going from one,from a, expecting to go from A
(06:12):
to C, but they're being thevalue in B and when.
If you continue to keep missingout on the people, right, like,
you build a training but it'snot for the people, it's for the
to meet the KPI You're nevergoing to get a return on your
(06:34):
investment.
That's pretty basic.
If you want a true return onyour investment.
You have to stop lookingoutside of your organization,
you have to look within and youmust acknowledge.
Who are these people not?
Oh, they're middle managers.
Oh, they're only Gen Z.
Oh, they are.
(06:55):
Who are they as people and whoare they as learners?
Why?
I'm going to climb up on myhigh horse right now.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Why in the world?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
why in the world would you create a training that
is content heavy, content heavy.
And it has to be, becausethat's the nature of your
business, your work, and you'representing it in a couple hours,
Just showing it.
But you expect your people.
(07:38):
You might have some newindividuals, new to the
organization, some people whoare in job like role transition
within the organization, somepeople who are in job like role
transition within yourorganization, but yet you expect
them to comprehend all of thisinformation and then make sense
of it on their own and apply itso you can meet your KPI.
That just doesn't make goodsense.
(08:00):
It's not logical.
It is not logical.
It is not logical, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I just have to say Dr Kerry, I'm going to tell you
like you're speaking to my soul.
You can see me dancing andgetting excited over here, right
?
Because am I guilty of drowningpeople with every damn
miscellaneous piece of detailinformation that they might need
, just in case?
Absolutely Like the people thatwent through the first training
(08:26):
I put together, I feel bad forthem.
And then the connection.
I want to share two confessionswith you so you can help folks
understand like, yeah, you seethat out there, maybe I'm just
some psychopath that does itreally wrong.
So first situation, early, earlyon, when I first got into like
training and it was not a formalthing, like I was showing my
(08:48):
friends how I did things at thebar or at a barbecue after hours
, hanging out, right, it wasn'tlike official training, but I
was trying to teach them.
Then it became my job.
So I put a little trainingprogram together, training
(09:09):
program together, and the wordsthat I used was saying you need
to do this so that my job iseasier.
I wasn't saying that precisely,but that was the message you
need to do this to comply withour business objectives.
And so I remember one friend ofmine is like hey, man, like
this is good stuff, but it'slike it's only for you.
What do you mean?
It's for you guys, and so isthat kind of an example of the
(09:33):
bee hitting the bee.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Let's knock it in.
So here's a story, a very shortstory, that really pulled the
veil for me.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So at some point in my career I but before that we
want to do the L&M.
Family member shout out, andthis one goes to Jennifer Lacey,
and y'all, if you know me, knowshe didn't pay me.
She actually gave me this superawesome thought.
And so Jennifer says when Isigned up to the Do the Damn
(10:03):
Thing time management workshop,facilitated by me, jesse, I
thought I would get a couple ofcheat codes to sprinkle into my
planning.
I had no idea he would cause amajor shift in my thinking
around how I approach my goals.
So, jennifer, sister, Iappreciate you, girl, thank you
(10:24):
for going out there and sharingthat note with me.
So when you send me a note,make a comment on one of my
posts.
It doesn't have to be good, itcould be anything.
If it stinks, let me know whatstinks.
That gives me the opportunityto celebrate you in the future.
So share with your people.
Leave some stars, leave somecomments, because I need the
attention.
Leave some stars, leave somecomments because I need the
(10:46):
attention.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
At some point in my career I was a state employee.
Yes, so everyone picture itright.
Yeah 2000, whatever.
So I was a state employee andas a state employee I am a rule
follower, and I attended asexual harassment training along
with two to 300 of mycolleagues my fellow state
(11:12):
employee colleagues and it wasclear we were all in an
auditorium.
It was clear that theinstitution invested some money
to bring in a speaker.
Well, I'm looking around.
I was by myself, but I waslooking around and people are
asleep.
This was when Candy Crush was athing.
They're on their cell phonesplaying games, they're having
(11:37):
side conversations right, and Iwant your listeners to imagine
you've been in that situation.
But here's the thing At thesame time, that organization was
in public litigation aroundsexual harassment.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Now you tell me you corralled all the people, so
that's an expense.
Right, we're going to talkabout ROI.
You've taken people from theirjob, so that is an expense.
You've paid to have a speakeron a topic that clearly you're
presenting on because somethingelse has happened.
(12:18):
That's an expense.
That's an expense.
But you are in public litigationfor a problem that you're
attempting to solve right nowit's not making sense, as the
young people say, make it makesense for me, so it's.
It is another example ofcreating a training that is
(12:41):
performative.
A training that is performativeit's not addressing the issue
in any shape or form and you arestill not meeting your KPI and
you're not getting a return oninvestment.
So that's just a story that Ioften share.
I don't name names to protectothers, but I have also made
(13:06):
mistakes.
When I got into this, my careerstarted in health care, as a not
certified athletic trainer, soI worked clinically, but then,
when I left that, I enterededucation.
Oh, it's a no wonder thosestudents graduated those
undergrads.
Let me tell you, jesse, likeshame on me, I'm embarrassed,
(13:27):
right, like even moment I'membarrassed.
But it's okay that people makemistakes like that.
That is the part of it, right,it's okay to make mistakes.
The key is you learn from themistake.
Don't be like that organizationcontinuing to do the same thing
over and over again oh, it's,you said, perfect word.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's performative, it's about optics.
It's so that we can say we didand mitigate our liability for
something that we're reacting toyes, and it's you're wasting
time interacting to yes, andit's you're wasting time
Organizationally.
Now, personally, I think theequivalent of that is I read 52
(14:13):
books in a year.
Okay, so you read a book a weekand what the hell did you do
with the information?
What was the purpose?
What was the through line ofall the content that you were
consuming?
And we do these things.
For me, it's about optics, it'sabout vanity, it's about being
able to say look what I did,rather than this is what I
(14:34):
contributed.
And I think, and we're going toget to this, but I think that
totally ties to mission andvalues and this sort of really
strategic thinking that coupleswith the training.
But before we get there, I'vedone this and I want to share
this because it's helped me helpexecutives understand the fun
(15:01):
that they bring to the tablewith their unrealistic
expectations.
So I was presenting to a groupof vice presidents from the
central region and I had myspace on the agenda.
What was buzzing around, andthis was back when I had a real
job.
This was years ago.
I don't have a real job now.
And so the buzz was man, and itwas huge.
(15:21):
It was this training the peoplethat went to it.
They called it the brainwashthing.
It got people excited, it wasgood stuff, but it was a whole
week, right, it was a whole weekof super, super intense all day
training.
It was awesome for me, maybenot for everybody.
Anyways, the buzz was Jesse,we're sending these people to
this training, we're taking themoffline to go to the thing.
(15:41):
It's a whole week and they'renot experts at it.
It's still wonky and clunky andright Like.
They still like what the hellis the point of this training if
they're not?
That's OK, I hear you, I hearyou.
So what I did on my littlereport out piece on the agenda
is OK, everybody stand up, I'mgoing to teach you the basic
(16:03):
bachata steps.
So if you're, I'm into Latindancing right, and bachata is
easy One, two, three, yep, one,two, three, left right.
One, two, three.
One, two, three, it's easy.
So I walk them through the baseand they're like what in the
world is this fool doing, comeon.
So they got up and they did it,and and that's okay, we're
(16:26):
gonna play some music.
All right, let's do it to thebeach.
It was less than five minutes,all right.
Now I did my my report out anduh, and then at the end, it's
okay, so I've picked one.
I said executive number oneplease run us through summary, a
review of what you were trainedon before we did.
Before I did my report out andand he's like bro, I don't I
remember one, two, three, but Idon't.
(16:48):
Like I was like, oh, so you'renot ready to be an expert and
train people?
Well, no, it's okay.
Executive number two how aboutyou?
I saw you, you were in therhythm, like you got it.
She said, jess, like I'm notready to teach Like I would
practice alone.
I said, okay, ready to teachlike I would practice alone.
(17:08):
I said, okay, this is exactlythe same situation that you're
imposing on people after goingto training and expecting them
to be expert level teachers ofit.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Say, it again.
Say it again For the people inthe back, jesse.
Say it again.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Say it again, so you can guess I wasn't very popular
after that, but I made someprogress with some of them.
Okay, we understand what you'resaying.
How do we bridge that gap?
I'm like that's the question,here's the idea, here's the
support, the follow-up supportto like the intensive now they
(17:43):
have some context, some somevocabulary, some awareness, but
we need some follow-up supporton actual deployment and doing
and what to expect and so forth.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You know what, jesse?
You got it, whatever.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You don't need it, you got it.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Eat whatever.
You don't need it.
You got it Honestly and that'swhat I tell people.
It's not about.
I mean it is, but it's notreally.
The focus shouldn't be on thecontent.
The content, that's not it.
Where people get it wrong isthey don't focus on the people.
That's the first thing.
Even if they focus on thepeople and they got the content,
it often stops there, to yourpoint.
(18:27):
It stops right there.
What they don't do is follow itthrough and work on confidence,
competence, application.
Once you can move peoplethrough to that point exactly
what you were saying you got toget them to where they're
confident and competent to dothe thing.
(18:49):
That's it.
But if we take it at a highlevel, jesse, that's all about
vision and strategy and that'snot where people want to sit
right now.
People want to go and do thosethings, but they don't want to
take time and sit in aconference room and say, okay,
just, fellow decision makers, weneed a strategy around this.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Okay, so I know that's a super deep subject and
we already poked at it twice,but for the L&M family members
out there, what's the starterkit?
What do you need to be notdoing?
How do people need to bethinking about this session,
this strategy session around?
What's the strategy?
What's the alignment with thebusiness and the intended or
(19:37):
targeted outcome of training anddevelopment?
You got any easy pointers thatyou see folks miss or overlook,
take for granted all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Okay, I do, but before I get there, jesse, you
have an invitation to my dinnertable.
My husband and I would love tohave you for dinner.
I'm just going to say itbecause the conversation Okay, I
love food.
I love food.
Okay, so, and the reason Iextend the invitation is because
you want to get deep and youwant to have the deep
conversations and I love it.
(20:10):
So my recommendation forleaders who are saying, okay,
let's do this strategy, here'ssome things to think about.
Think about your organizationalvision and mission.
That's the first thing.
What does it say?
If, at any point, you have apoint about the people in it,
(20:35):
that vision needs to be in yourstrategy.
That vision needs to be a partof your training as well.
If in your vision, it sayscommunity, the stories around
community training that is builton community learning and
learning, hoops and sociallearning, communities of
practice, that needs to be in it.
(20:57):
So and I could go on and on butI would say the first thing to
start thinking about is whatdoes our vision, our corporate
organizational vision, say?
What does it say and is itreflected in our training as a
whole and in our existingstrategy, if you have one?
That's the first thing.
Yeah, that's the first thing.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
It's gigantic and the reason I say it's gigantic for
two reasons.
And like anybody outside of theconstruction industry, I'm not
talking about you because that'snot for two reasons.
And like anybody outside of theconstruction industry, I'm not
talking about you because that'snot where I swim.
But in the constructionindustry I know tons of
organizations that either don'thave a clear vision, mission,
values, which that's not bad,because my money says the
(21:41):
majority of businesses out theredon't.
But hey, you're making it right.
Don't let any fool start abusiness.
I'm proof of that.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
If you want to have.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I guess what I'm hearing is when you want to
amplify the investment oftraining and development, where
to start is vision, missionvalues.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, and that's it, and it's not creating them.
So I would hope you already gotit.
I would hope so, so let'sassume you have them.
If you're thinking about wheredo we start with our strategy,
this is really high level,really high level.
It should be.
Well, what does it say?
(22:22):
It's our guiding principle andit doesn't mean that it solely
guides our revenue.
It should be.
Well, what does it say?
It's our guiding principle andit doesn't mean that it solely
guides our revenue.
It should guide everything thatleads to the revenue.
So I would look at that andbecause it should be reflected
in your strategy and in yourtraining in general.
The other thing that I havethis is the first conversation I
(22:47):
have with my clients time andtime again is you need to get a
crystal clear understanding ofwho your workforce is.
Who are they as people?
You cannot keep building atraining or establishing quote
(23:09):
unquote pipeline, leadershippipelines and leadership
mentoring programs when youdon't understand who these
people are, what their needs arenot what your needs are, but
what are their needs.
What your needs are, but whatare their needs.
So I would say, if you'rethinking about strategy, like
(23:34):
high level strategy, from thetime someone signs the agreement
of working for you, the inksigns all the way through
exiting you want to think aboutyour vision and mission and who
are the people, who are they aslearners?
You have to.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Powerful.
If you're not thinking aboutthe people, what the hell are
you doing?
That's it.
Find some YouTube links and letthem watch videos.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That's it.
So I was at a breakfast thismorning and a guy who is the
president of the closesthospital to me was also at that
meeting.
Oddly enough, we went toundergrad together.
Oddly enough, we were justchatting, and I asked him.
I said what's your approach tosupporting and returning your
(24:18):
team?
And he was like well, I've donethis for our hospital workers
and this.
And I said, right there, Idon't need to talk to you as a
potential client, because youview and understand that your
workforce as your number oneresource, your number one asset,
keep on.
(24:50):
And I've said this before keeptreating people nasty and not
supporting them and notuplifting and nurturing them,
you will continue to have aturnover issue.
You will continue to have aproblem.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh, I love it.
So your people are not theproblem, they're the answer.
Yes, and when you startbehaving that way, the thing the
tide will turn, it will, itwill.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
It will.
I've seen it time and timeagain, and so here's here's an
example, and it's a mistake thatI made and I learned from it
and I'm happy to share it.
So I was doing a very longseries of trainings with a group
of individuals, and every timeI would go to meet with them,
(25:42):
they were not prepared in theway that I expected.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
And I was so frustrated and so at the
beginning, right like I wouldjust keep pushing and it wasn't
happening.
So one day I went to them and Isaid I don't understand, why is
it that you are not preparedwhen we meet every?
time we meet, and so I need youto help me understand.
(26:07):
I had drew a lot of assumptionsabout this group of people, a
lot of assumptions.
What they told me was I havethis obligation outside of this
workshop or this series andthese other obligations, and it
is keep.
I don't have the time in theday to do what you're asking.
(26:31):
A number of them said that.
A few others said I don't knowhow to do what you're asking me
to do, just period.
Don't know how to do whatyou're asking me to do, just
period.
I don't know how.
And you keep asking me to do itand I want to do it, but I just
don't know how.
Fair enough.
Someone else, a couple otherpeople, said I don't have access
(26:52):
to those resources and, jesse,when I tell you, I was humbled
in that moment.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Oh, I bet.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
I just stood there.
There was no blame, like noself them.
No one was blaming.
We were having just a candidconversation about what's the
problem?
Why is it this working?
Us working out and given whatthey were all saying, and then
one person would say somethingand someone else would agree oh
(27:26):
yeah, I'm struggling in that waytoo.
I realized, damn, carrie, likeyou got it all wrong.
You made a bunch of assumptions.
You assume that people have theresources, you assume that they
had the time, you assume thatthey had the time, you assume
that they had the interest, andso you were pushing based on
assumptions as opposed to trulyunderstanding who they are and
(27:53):
what their needs are.
So that totally changed it forme and I became a better
educator.
I became a better facilitator.
Quite honestly, I became abetter person and I have
instituted that.
I've encouraged people as aconsultant.
I've said you have to make itabout them, it's not about you.
(28:14):
Who are they?
And time again, my clientsalways say, carrie, I never
thought of that.
And when we're done, they'relike man, that was it right
there, that was it.
Thank you for sharing that, butit came out of my mistake.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Yes, oh, I love that and that's the value.
Right Of the missteps, yeah,when we pay attention to them.
Now, what I want to point outthat you did that seems duh, but
no, it's not, because we rarelydo it.
You said, okay, the outcomethat I want is not happening.
I keep telling them what to doand I keep getting the same
(28:54):
outcome.
So the system was designedperfectly to produce the outcome
you were having.
Telling them to change didn'timpact the outcome.
So you said let me find out why, let me ask and, more
importantly, listen yes, why.
What's struggling, what is thebarrier and contributing to the
(29:15):
break in the system?
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
And I'm with you.
I've been there.
We're like man, I suck.
I can't believe I've beenberating y'all this whole time.
I should like just as dumb.
I'm not saying you, I'm sayingme.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
No, I was saying the same thing.
When I got home that day, I waslike you idiot, come on, do
better, do better.
And now I can say I do betterand it's because of that, and
something you said right.
You said that I listened.
I did.
However, jesse, let's talkabout your listeners.
How many of you collect surveys?
(29:53):
How many of you did assessments?
And you're sitting on all thisdata and that's where it stops.
You're sitting on the data.
You are using the data to makeinformed decisions again about
(30:13):
the strategy.
Don't make these decisions inreaction to well, how is it
going to get us to the KPI?
If you took the time to surveyyour workforce, you need to sit
down with the data let it sinkin.
Check your pride at the doorbecause it's going to hurt.
(30:36):
Make it make sense and thenmake decisions based on what you
see.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh, my goodness, I love it, and you're right.
So many people out thereorganizations and even
individuals gather all kinds ofsurvey data and don't do squat.
And for me I'm like wait aminute, what am I filling this
out for?
What are we going to do with it?
And for me I'm like wait aminute, what am I filling this
out for?
What are we going to do with it?
(31:06):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (31:07):
I was like well, I know you want me to fill out the
survey, but what are you goingto do with it?
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I don't care, I'm not worried about somebody judging
me, but are you going to use it?
And if you can answer, yeah,we're going to use it for X, y,
z.
Okay, cool, I'll fill it out Ifyou say, well, it's because
they told us we got to do it.
Guess what.
I ain't filling it out becauseyou're just wasting my time,
absolutely and you're not goingto do anything.
And you keep repeating that.
And what are you signaling toyour people?
That everything is performative, everything is weak sauce and
they get further and furtherdisengaged.
(31:34):
Oh my God, all right, dr Kerry.
So, folks, if you can't tellshe got some game and so shy,
but I do remember them and Iwanted to go.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
And my mother even a couple of times was like don't
you want to go, I'll pay for it.
I was too shy.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I was like okay, so, and I love that, and can you
guess, I was shy too.
I was in the middle of thefloor, I had my dance routine
with my buddies and we turned itup.
So, but back then, the shy days, right, when people were out
there messing around, were youcommitted fully?
Was it super clear to you thatyou were going to be a PhD in
(32:35):
organizational development,training, all the magical things
you're doing now?
Speaker 1 (32:39):
No, organizational development, training, all the
magical things you're doing now.
No, where I am today was neverearly on part of my goal.
It is truly divinely ordained.
I firmly believe that.
So short story.
As a really shy kid, I wantedto be an attorney.
(33:01):
I did, I wanted to be a lawyer.
But my best friend at the timesaid, carrie, you'll never be a
good lawyer because you don'tlike to argue.
She was right and so I was like,yeah, that's not for me, that's
not for me.
But so I ended up going toundergrad.
I have a degree in sport, abachelor's degree in sports
medicine.
I wanted to be the athletictrainer for the Georgetown Hoyas
(33:23):
men's basketball team and workfor Thompson in the day.
That was what I wanted.
I didn't work for Georgetown.
I did have a chance to meetJohn Thompson Sr, but I was on
that path and my transition fromDivision One Athletics to the
classroom.
(33:44):
That's not something that Ihave wanted and it was an
opportunity and I said, yes, ok,getting the PhD actually was
out of frustration.
Really it really was, because Iwas at this sexual harassment
training as a health careprovider, I had to go to
(34:06):
conferences every year tomaintain my board certification
and what I found was, while Iwas growing, not only in my
skillset but in my goals, mypersonal goals, career goals the
conferences weren't meeting mein that regard.
(34:27):
And because of that right, Iwas spending money, I was using
my vacation time.
I was growing more and morefrustrated and I was getting
closer to like late thirties,forties, like why is this the
case?
I don't.
I'm frustrated.
I'm frustrated.
(34:47):
And it was a growingconversation among my colleagues
.
They were feeling the same wayand that's when the opportunity
presented that, okay, I think Imight need to pursue some other
coursework or degree.
And that's how this came around.
The very first course that Itook was workplace learning and
(35:10):
I honestly, jesse, I felt like Iwas in therapy every Tuesday of
the week.
I kept saying to myself yes,everything we were reading about
projects.
I was like this is me, this isme, this is my experience.
And that's what really helpedme realize we have a problem,
(35:31):
and it's not just in thiscountry, it's pervasive
worldwide.
And I've listened to the call,or I've answered the call that
God has laid out before me, ofCarrie, you have an opportunity.
I've prepared you with skillsand experiences and a growing
(35:52):
passion to support businesses sothat their people are filled up
and not depleted.
People are filled up and notdepleted.
I've been the employee who waslike why am I at this training,
why am I here and angry?
(36:12):
And then I went home and I wasangry and frustrated.
I do my work for them.
I do my work for the person sothat they can go home to their
loved ones and be full andpresent, so that they can
participate in their communityand be excited and that when
(36:32):
they are alone they don't feelweighed down.
They actually feel inspired.
Weighed down, they actuallyfeel inspired.
That's all I want.
When the good Lord calls mehome and I take my last breath
and I have to give an accountfor my life, I want to say God,
Father, I used everything yougave me to make the lives better
(36:57):
of others.
That's all I'll be able to say.
That is all I want to be ableto say.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Amazing, oh, my goodness.
Okay, this is going to be aweird question, and also I just
want to recognize and folks ifyou didn't catch the theme there
is, what I heard is what givesyou fulfillment is serving
others, improving the experienceof other human beings, which I
(37:28):
think is a super.
It's the keystone.
It doesn't have to be trainingand organizational
transformation, it just has tobe something that contributes to
the life of others.
To have the fulfillment andbeing able to show up at the end
and say I did it, you gave itto me and I did it.
Now what's next?
(37:51):
So I love that.
Now you mentioned you're in yourmind you were going to be an
attorney, and then your friendssay wait a minute, maybe not.
And so you went down a path andthen you saw another path and
then maybe kept going downdeeper down that path.
So here's the weird question Doyou feel like you have a cycle
(38:13):
of time in which you needsomething heavier to chew on, or
a new mission, a new phase ofgrowth to explore?
And if you do, what's thatduration?
I'll give you an example Backin the day before I became a
house cat, I could see thatevery three to five years.
(38:35):
I needed like I got promotions,I take on a new big giant
challenge and then I'd startgetting bored and I'd start
causing problems and getting introuble.
And then I got a new challengeand it was like a three to five
year cycle.
It sped up since then.
So I'm wondering do you see asimilar pattern in on your path?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
looking back, that is a great question.
I don't think it's an odd oneat all and it was something that
I realized, maybe 15 years agois that it is in fact I'm on, I
am on, like you a three to fiveyear, more like a four to five
year path or cycle where Irealized, ah, I'm bored and what
(39:17):
it is.
I realize, oh, I'm bored andwhat it is.
I want to be very clear,because I've worked with young
people and I've seen this happentime and again.
I want to be clear.
That is not a bad thing and,quite frankly, you would hope
that that occurs.
And the reason I say that isevery day that passes, we all
(39:43):
continue to evolve and get olderand if you are not growing in
some capacity, something's wrong.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Something is wrong and when I realized that was, I
was working with collegestudents, and at first in
Division One athletics.
It's great.
The thing that evolves is thesports world Right.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
But when, and so it wasn't really an issue.
But when I got in the classroomI remember very distinctly I
got to a point where I said, wow, they keep being 18, but I keep
getting older, and that for meit was mind blowing because I'm
(40:34):
like why is it getting harder?
They're still 18, right, yeah,they're still eight.
And I kept telling myselfthey're still getting 18.
Why is it harder?
Why is it harder?
And what I wasn't realizing is,yes, they are 18, but I am 30,
(40:55):
35, 40, 45, while they're still18.
So I use that as an example,that as we age, as we have more
life experience, as we have morestruggles and successes in life
.
I would hope that people want achange and the change feeds
(41:19):
different parts of their lives.
I again, I'll be very honestwith you, jesse I have.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
My faith has always been a veryprivate part of my life and,
(41:40):
given where I worked separationof church and state, and that's
just how I lived.
As I've gotten older and hadvarious life experiences, the
value of my faith coming to theforefront has become more
important to me.
(42:00):
So I've evolved very privatelyand very intimately, but that
has impacted my work.
And so to your originalquestion my work has evolved and
me wanting to solve likedigging in hardcore and deep and
not taking the easy path andworking with people on their
(42:24):
strategies is because my faithhas evolved and it's pushing me.
It's pushing me to say, carrie,be a better person for others,
show up stronger and harder forothers, be courageous for others
.
Show up stronger and harder forothers.
Be courageous for others.
Do the thing that'suncomfortable for you, but it's
(42:45):
going to help and support others.
So, yes, I do.
Every so often I get bored, andit's not simply eh, I've done
that before I don't want to.
It's for me.
It's not about that.
It is I am growing and evolvingand I'm honoring that evolution
(43:07):
.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Ultimately, oh, that's beautifully said.
You're growing into yourconfidence, you're evolving into
it and you're honoring itbecause, yes, that's the
ultimate.
And I also, like me personallyI recognize there was a hell.
That was 20 years of my lifewhere I was like playing the
(43:30):
same year over and over and overagain, and that was largely
because of the life that I haddesigned Right.
I had enormous debt, I had allthese other things that, like, I
didn't have space to likewander and roam and explore.
I just had to go make thatmoney to pay the bill so they
wouldn't repo the truck.
Like for real, real life, andI'm sharing that.
(43:51):
Folks, if you're not in thislike rapid cycle, that's okay,
yeah, yeah.
But when you are, when youstart seeing it and sensing it
to use your word, honor it,because it is the calling, it is
the like in my brain, I thinkof those little signals that say
hey, jess, look at this, payattention to this, there's this
thing you should explore.
(44:11):
That's the whispers, right?
The whispers are telling me hey, there's something greater out
there.
You just got to figure out howto be better to do it.
Now, on the other side of thecoin, I know several people that
have grand ideas.
They start down the path andthere's always friction.
Right, because we know change.
(44:33):
There's friction with change,regardless of whether it's
positive, requested or imposed.
It's always pain.
So they start down this paththinking, hey, I see another
vision, I'm evolving.
And then, six months later, man, that was too hard.
They pick up another path.
What guidance would you offersomebody that's not prepared to
(44:58):
apply the discipline andsacrifice to overcome the
friction?
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Man, that's good, good one.
I would say a couple of things,and the first that comes to
mind is that did it for me earlyon in my life is what's the
alternative for me early on inmy life is what's the
alternative?
And it's I'm uncomfortable justto hear myself say it Honestly.
(45:29):
I think I'm getting nauseousthinking about it.
Right, I really am like what'sthe alternative?
So when I was an undergrad, Iwas in this athletic training
program and it got really.
It was hard.
It was a hard year for a lot ofreasons and I was like I don't
want to do this anymore.
And all of my friends wereolder, so they were seniors, and
(45:51):
I remember distinctly it wasthe day, the last day, to change
your major change your course.
So the clock is ticking.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
And I'm like I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
And they kept saying okay, carrie, if you don't want
to do it, that's fine, but whatwill you do?
And I couldn't answer it.
I was like I don't know whatwas the alternative.
I didn't have one and so I putI was like this is it?
And so I kept pushing when Ihad to take I don't think I've
(46:29):
ever publicly said this, I knowI haven't publicly said this and
a lot of people oh my God,exclusive.
I don't want to say it, but I'mgoing to.
Oh my God, exclusive.
I don't want to say it, but I'mgoing to.
So I actually.
So I was board certified.
I didn't pass the first time,and passing the first time was a
(46:52):
huge deal.
I didn't pass it and I rememberthinking what are you going to
do, carrie?
What are you going to do?
And that's what are you goingto do, carrie, what are you
going to do?
What are you going to do?
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't haveany other choice.
There was an alternative.
As Kevin Hart would say, all myeggs were in this basket.
(47:15):
That has followed me over theyears is what's going to?
What's the alternative, carrie?
What are you going to do?
You've invested and people say.
Coming from the world ofathletics, people say, oh,
quitting is bad.
No, sometimes I was about toswear, jesse Sometimes quitting
(47:38):
is the right decision, dependingon what the situation is.
I would say for people who areat that place where they don't
know how to handle the friction,it's understanding what your
alternative is.
There is a consequence and abenefit to all of it, and you
(47:58):
have to understand both to makethe right decision.
There are days for me as aconsultant when it's not.
It's not gravy.
I'm going to be honest.
Right, like it's not gravy.
I just want to be like screwall of this, lord, give me
something else.
I'm not the one for this.
This ain't easy, like they said.
I know you don't make mistakes,but I don't know if I'm the
(48:19):
right one for this.
This ain't easy, like they saidit was.
I know you don't make mistakes,but I don't know if I'm the
right one.
I don't know.
But I always take time aloneand sit with it.
Sit with the frustration, sitwith not having confidence, the
(48:40):
doubt.
Sit with all frustration, sitwith not having confidence, the
doubt.
Sit with all of it, acknowledgeit for what it is and then move
forward.
And for me, when I sit in it inthe muck and mess of it, for
people who've ever been deep indebt, you can't not look at the
(49:01):
numbers and think you're goingto get out of it.
You got to sit in it.
When you are obesely overweightand you're trying to lose weight
.
You got to take all the clothesoff and look at it from all
angles.
You have to sit in the hardthing to understand the hard
(49:21):
thing.
And when you understand thehard thing, you can change the
hard thing or you can moveforward through the hard thing.
Yes, and businesses leaders,you have to do the same thing.
You have to sit in the muck andthe mire and the hardness of it
.
You have to.
You have to sit in the muck andthe mire and the hardness of it
(49:41):
.
You have to.
You have to.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Beautiful, excellent, profound advice, introspection.
And first, thank you for yourvulnerability and sharing that
thing.
Like I'm excited I got a littlespecial treat out of this
Honestly.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
I don't think my husband knows I got a little
special treat out of this,honestly.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
I don't think my husband knows it, jesse, tell
you that I think I'm going tohave to go tell him.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
I got to go tell him.
I don't think he knows.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Well, and I love that you pointed out like Because
and I'm not going to do a goodjob of this, but I am, if you
can't tell I'm like superintense and quitting is not an
idea I subscribe to or advocatefor, but I know there is value
in quitting and so, just forclarity, folks, I'm not saying
(50:34):
don't quit and keep doing it,because I've tried that, I've
tried it in relationships, I'vetried it.
Tried that.
I've tried it in relationships,I've tried it in jobs, I've
tried it in hobbies.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
And, like the common thread is because I'm obsessive,
I end up losing joy.
Yes, I end up underserving theperson in front of me because
I'm not going to quit.
I'm going to figure it out, I'mgoing to do this thing.
And the pattern revealed itself, like I said, in hobbies, in
(51:07):
relationships, in jobs andassignments, it was the same
thing I got.
So because I wasn't going toquit.
I can't quit, I'm not going toquit.
What are they going to sayabout me if I quit?
I'm not a quitter.
Well, and then I'm just likeabusing myself.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Eventually I figured out a fool.
Like it's stealing joy from you.
It's taking so much energy foryou to get good at the thing
that you're neglecting everybodyand everything else.
Yes, time to quit.
Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:34):
Now, on the other end of it, here's something I do.
Tell me what you think about it.
When I decide to start a new andthis is this is real new Like,
we'll say, the last four or fiveyears of my life, like when I
started this podcast, I didn'tknow what I was doing and I also
don't want to start somethingand not at least get the lesson
(51:59):
which you said right.
What is the lesson in thisthing?
It may not be your career stillnot making money off this thing
, but I know what the lesson is.
Right, I can connect withamazing people, and so what I
did and this is what I do now,even with new ideas, it's going
to be six months or one year.
Am I willing and prepared to dothe work for six months or a
(52:22):
year with absolutely no returnon investment, no recognition,
no likes, no shares, no comments?
If the answer is yes, then I'mgoing to do it.
If the answer is, I'm not surewhy even start, right, but six
months to anything less than sixmonths, and I use the six month
(52:46):
time block for things that I'mgoing to be paying money on.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Like a year.
If it's just my time, it's justmy time.
But if it's cash girl, like Idon't like spending money that
way.
If it's cash girl like I don'tlike spending money that way.
But I got it because I knowthat the start there's always
friction, it's always hard, it'sdifficult and reflecting back
(53:15):
six months to a year is enoughtime to pull data points and
evaluate the signals, to say,okay, this is flatlining, this
is declining, this is going up,and then make a decision to add
time to that.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (53:25):
I think that's fair and I think it's healthy to give
yourself six months to a yearto experience, to explore, to
learn some lessons.
And here's the thing aboutlearning lessons that I've
always told people learn.
(53:46):
That that's not for you, that'sa lesson.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
That's it.
That's it, yes.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
A hundred percent, and that's a very valuable
lesson that you need to have inorder to go in the direction or
do the thing that's going tofeed you.
I tried that as well when Istarted consulting full time.
I had another area of work thatI was doing and I was like
(54:12):
uh-uh, uh-uh, this.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
I did.
Speaker 1 (54:16):
Like you said, the idea is nice and I can serve in
that way, but for me the lessonwas it's not feeding my soul.
Yes so what's the point?
So I let that go but.
I think that's fair because andthe reason I say it's fair is
(54:37):
because you go into itacknowledging this might be
challenging and hard, but I knowthere's an end point and at the
end point or the timeline, soit's at the six month mark or at
the year mark that's when yousay, yes, let me assess it.
I'm going to assess is it good,it good, bad and different.
(54:58):
Okay, I got my answer.
What do I do now?
Yes, and that's the thing.
You have to have a point ofassessment to determine the next
path that's it.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
That's yep.
Is there a change in direction?
Is there a tweak?
Do I get off the pack?
Speaker 1 (55:16):
look, even have you evolved in that time going back
to the 18 and gone.
Are you evolving?
In that time, did your lifecircumstance change?
Fine, and so now it's notpossible or it's not feasible,
or did things evolve and you'relike this is it?
I found it yes.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
Clarity oh my God.
Well, I just got to say that,dr Carey, you just gave all my
exes affirmation when theydecided that's not for me when
they kicked me down the road.
But so thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (55:53):
I'm going to say the same.
And to your point aboutrelationships there,
(56:36):
no-transcript.
Life is so precious when westrip away our titles and the
things that we have, and all ofit is about experiencing the
world around us.
It is an opportunity for beautyand it is hard, and so why
(57:02):
would we invite and I tell myfriends this, why would you
invite chaos, why would youinvite additional pain, why
would you invite burnout to sitat your table?
You would, you would not, youwould not.
(57:23):
So it is your responsibility.
We're not having it.
We're not having it, and it'shard.
Like you talk about the momentof friction, and I think our
missteps help us, help reveal ifsomething is in fact the place
(57:46):
we need to be or not.
And our mistakes, our missteps,are not bad things.
They're not.
They are simply a part of lifethat help us gain understanding
for this beautiful thing that wecall life.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Oh, that's gotta be a clip.
I know it's gonna renee.
You need to cut that out.
That was awesome, all right.
So I have one softball closingquestion.
Okay, but before I get to that,you mentioned that you're
consulting.
You have your own business.
Would you mind letting peopleknow if they don't already love
you?
Then they could just move on.
(58:22):
But the ones that are fallingin love with it and say, man, I
need to get in contact with DrCarrie here.
How do you serve and how dopeople get ahold of you?
Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah, thank you so much for that opportunity, jesse
.
So I am committed to servingsmall and mid-sized businesses
that don't have an L&D team butthey want to get.
They want to serve theirworkforce well, and so I can
help you with your training anddevelopment strategy.
(58:54):
I can help you with puttingtogether a training program and
pipeline that really serves yourworkforce.
So that's the place I sit andthat's where I'm committed to
working.
People can find me atdrcarygramcom or on LinkedIn all
those things but the thing thatI encourage people to think
(59:18):
about is I require you to thinkdifferently.
I am not going to say this is aone size fits all, you have to
do it.
Oh, she has a PhD.
She's going to tell me do itthis way.
We're going to do some deep,intimate work in terms of what
data are you sitting on and notusing?
(59:38):
Why are you not using it?
That's a question that we'renot going to speak that onto the
road, right.
But really, looking at, who areyour people?
Oh, okay, so if these are yourworkforce, who are they as
learners?
Oh, you don't know.
Why don't you know who they are?
as entrepreneurs, so anyone thatreally wants to be right by
(01:00:00):
their workforce from a trainingperspective and is willing to
pull the curtain back and saythis is really where we are,
we're not proud of it, we're nothappy about it.
We really don't want the publicto know.
I'm okay with that and pleaseknow that I view that as an
(01:00:23):
invitation into your house.
It is intimate and it isprivate and I honor that, and so
I will ask hard questions andpush people to do things.
But it is all in the spirit oflet's make you better so that
your people are better, and ifthey are better, your business
(01:00:43):
is going to be better.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
It's plain and simple .
Oh my God, all right, I willabsolutely make sure that your
links are in the show notes sopeople can get ahold of you,
connect with you, and I like weconnected via LinkedIn and I'm
telling you like, if you're notsure, just connect with Dr
Carrie.
On LinkedIn you post right Likeperspectives and ideas that,
(01:01:08):
ooh, I could go do that rightnow.
I could go try that right now.
I don't need the intimateintervention.
Or maybe you're just not readyand you want to test the waters.
I know you post stuff that'shelpful and applicable to people
in business.
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I also want to say one of the things that in this
to this, to your point, likepeople may not be ready and
they're wondering.
So you've heard like we've hadthis crazy conversation, but I,
on my website, there is, in fact, a free assessment.
It's a training and it toucheson all the things you and I have
(01:01:41):
been talking about, and so it'san opportunity for people to
just look at it and say, oh,okay, we weren't thinking about
these things, or we weren'tthinking about these things, or
we got this part, okay, and sothere's six categories of of
areas that that really need tobe considered when you're
(01:02:03):
working to improve on yourtraining program and that's on
my website, so you can just goand download it, and I don't
want anything from you for it,except for you to do better oh,
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
All right.
So we're absolutely going tomake sure the assessment is
available and I'm going to bebrainstorming on how to blow
that up because of the dualbenefit right.
It'll benefit the individualthat's doing the assessment and
it'll benefit my new friend, DrCarrie.
It may turn into a need, solet's blow that bad boy up.
Okay, Are you ready for thelittle kindergarten?
(01:02:39):
Simple, easy question.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Well, for one, I don't trust you on that, but I'm
ready.
I don't trust you.
I don't trust you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Good, you already know me, you already know me.
Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
But I'm ready, I'm ready.
Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
I love it All right, and again, you've been super
gracious with your time, yourinsight, even the vulnerability
of sharing a new, new secret I'mgoing to.
I feel like I need to gettissues for this answer, because
I think your answer is going tobe profound and impactful.
And so here's the question whatis the promise you are intended
(01:03:13):
to be?
Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Yeah, I think we do need some tissue, jesse.
I think we do need some tissue,and the reason I say that is
because that question is makingme look at parts of who I am
that I don't often look at andacknowledge when you say the
(01:03:38):
word promise.
So when I came into this world,there was a promise on my life,
and I think the world, ourexperiences, our doubt,
weaknesses are, doubt, cloudwhat the promise is, and I have
(01:04:02):
been on a journey to find thatand I didn't use the word
(01:04:24):
promise.
But now that you say it, that'swhat I've been looking for and
in my own quiet way, the promisethat's on my life is to be a
light in others and, yeah, Ineed a tissue.
I don't think I ever realizedthat until you asked that
question, and so I am sothankful that you asked me that
question because I can tell thathow my life has evolved,
(01:04:46):
particularly in the last sixyears, that I've really
committed to being a light forother people, in in, in moments
that may seem insignificant tome going to get my bring my
trash to the curb in the morningand seeing a little girl with a
(01:05:10):
hijab on and she's the only onefor me to say to her I love
your hijab, it's so beautiful,like you.
And for her to turn to me andsay you know what this is, thank
you.
I know that I put light intoher life in that moment.
For me to see an aging womanand to tell her I absolutely
(01:05:36):
love how beautiful your grayhair is.
That is why I am here and Ithink oftentimes I overlook that
.
I overlook that I look formoments to offer that to other
people.
But I think I'm realizing thatis my purpose and the promise
(01:05:57):
that's on my life that I canoffer other people.
So thank you so much, jesse,thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
It's amazing, thank you, and I'm getting chills over
here and fighting back thetears and folks go forth and do
likewise.
Right, what you just talkedabout is simple human stuff
helping somebody else understandthat you see them.
Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
And it's not a huge investment.
It's recognizing somethingabout them and helping them see
the greatness that you see.
So, wow, thank you.
Did you have fun?
Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
I did have fun.
Wow, thank you.
Did you have fun?
I did have fun, Jesse, but Ialso to your point that you just
made to your listeners.
I said something to you beforeyou hit record, but I want to
say it publicly.
I said thank you for beingJesse Hernandez and for being an
(01:07:00):
incredibly kind, professionalman of Latino descent who's
taken up space publicly onLinkedIn and in the world.
That must be acknowledged.
I am so incredibly proud to seeyour face, to hear your voice
(01:07:26):
in all of it, in all of what youbring.
It is so important and memaking a comment to a child on
the way to school, a stranger atthe grocery store.
They matter to thoseindividuals and my prayer is
that it matters to you, that I,in the space that you're holding
(01:07:48):
for me, that I equallyacknowledge who you are and what
you are doing.
It is important.
It is so incredibly importantand I pray that others
acknowledge that as well.
Jesse, I'm so proud of you forbeing here and this is our first
time actually meetingface-to-face, but I am just so
(01:08:10):
thankful for you.
I'm so thankful for you.
Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
Oh my goodness, the feeling is mutual, thank you.
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