Episode Transcript
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Andrew (00:07):
Joining legends, loot
and lore podcast today from from
all the way down under inAustralia, is Tom Watkin of D&D
at Work.
We're going to talk about allthings beginner D&D, what got
Tom started in playing DungeonsDragons, and we're also going to
(00:29):
talk about how to translate alot of those principles and
learnings that we gather inplaying Dungeons Dragons into a,
into a work environment.
So we're going to have some funtalking about that.
Tom, thank you for joining thepodcast today.
Tom (00:46):
Thank you, Audrey.
Andrew (00:49):
We're very excited, so
let's dive right in.
So how long have you beenplaying Dungeons Dragons?
What?
Let's start with that.
So where's your origin storyfor D&D?
Tom (01:02):
Okay, so, interestingly,
when I was about eight so that's
quite a long time ago now mydad had one of the first
Dungeons Dragons books, one ofthe old red ones, the Beckamy
ones.
He was playing it on the oilrigs with his friends, brought
it home and played it with mybrother and I and we played a
(01:24):
real simple, simplified versionof it and I was hooked straight
away, absolutely hooked.
He then decided he didn'treally like it, so I never
really got to play with my dadagain after that, but I was just
, yeah, this sort of being ableto use your imagination to
explore fantastical worlds.
(01:45):
At that time as well, I wasgetting into Lord of the Rings
and everything just seemed todovetail.
Ah, yes, so that was how Istarted and then, luckily, a
friend of mine at school wasgetting into Warhammer, so we
were playing Dungeons, dragons,the Warhammer role playing game,
all that sort of stuff.
Andrew (02:03):
Oh wow, it was great.
Oh, my goodness, you went intothe deep end of the ocean on all
that.
That's fantastic.
Tom (02:11):
It was the deep end
thinking about it.
Andrew (02:16):
Do you remember or
recall any of those early
characters that you created, oranything about them all these
years later?
Tom (02:25):
Funnily enough, I can't
remember some of the ones I
created.
There was, the first characterI ever played was like a
pre-generated character that mydad made, and he was a fighter
called Wolf.
Andrew (02:38):
Okay, cool.
Tom (02:39):
A few years ago I found the
notes of my dad's adventure and
looking at them now, they werepretty basic compared to what
people create now, but as anintro it was perfect.
Andrew (02:52):
Well, you could start
somewhere.
Tom (02:55):
Exactly.
Another character I had greatfun with this is when I was in
secondary school was a clericwho was pretty fundamentalist in
his view on orcs.
I can't remember his name, butI can remember having a lot of
fun with it, so that was areally good fun.
Andrew (03:16):
That's fantastic.
It's interesting how some ofthat stuff just sticks with us
through all these years later.
That's fantastic.
So what do you find mostcaptivating about D&D?
What's kept you engaged, allthese years later, in playing
(03:40):
the game?
Tom (03:43):
I think so.
I run a lot of games.
I do play in them as well, butI get a real kick out of
creating adventures and creatingworlds and then collaboratively
building them with my players.
And there's just.
You can't really capture thatfeeling in anything else, where
(04:04):
you're collaboratively creatinga story and an adventure.
And in fact, over the last sixyears, my friends and I have
been collaboratively creatingthis huge world, which started
off as a small campaign in aruined city and now spans
continents, and it's just anamazing creative experience,
(04:24):
really Interesting, and I think,as well as that, it's the
social aspect too.
So I've made some really goodfriends playing D&D and other
games like it and you're sittingaround the table, you're
socializing, you're sharingthese stories.
It's a really strong bondingexperience.
Andrew (04:48):
I completely agree.
I think there's just havingthose shared experiences.
You keep those memories formany, many years to come and it
really is a bonding experiencefor an adventuring party.
Tell me a little bit more aboutthis world that you're creating
(05:13):
.
Let's talk about that a littlebit.
Tom (05:16):
Yeah, okay.
So I had a gap from roleplaying games after university
and then I moved to Australia.
So I'm from Scotland originally, but I moved to Australia.
I got this real itch.
You know, I was like I reallywant to get back into it again.
So I was playing for a groupover the group and the dungeon
master dropped out.
(05:36):
So I created a ruined city andran the group through this
ruined city called Soulcive andthen we had great fun with it
and then when we got to the endof the campaign I was like I'd
like to carry on.
So what I started doing iscreating.
So we'd finished one campaign,which usually lasted about a
year, which was quite unusualand then we'd set I'd set the
(05:58):
next campaign 50 years or ageneration on.
So the characters, so allthings that the characters have
done back in that first campaignabout five or six years ago,
are influencing what's happeningnow, five or six generations on
, which is I've neverexperienced anything like it and
the shared law.
So we had, for example, onegroup back in the day released a
(06:24):
demon into the world which thencreated a big demon war and it
still had ramifications onwhat's going on with the group
now in the way that the worldperceives to tieflings and all
things demonic and it's, youknow, created like an
inquisition.
So there's these, these thingsthat I've taken from previous
campaigns and it sort of buildsthe world that way.
(06:46):
It's been great fun and thegroup that I play with so a lot
of GMs and this or DMs.
This might be a good advice foryour listeners.
If they're new to DMing.
They get this feeling thatthey've got to create this whole
world.
I started with one ruined city.
I didn't know what else wasaround the world and then,
(07:07):
together with the group, wecreated more and more.
There was pirate islands, we'vegot these northern wastes,
we've got another continent thatwas a lost continent, we've had
jungles, dinosaurs, you name it, and together we've created
this huge interlocked world.
But it's come through playrather than me sitting and
(07:28):
designing every little bit.
So I think for people who arestarting out as dungeon masters,
you don't have to go build thismassive world.
You can create one village andthrough play, players are pretty
creative and if they can getinvolved with the
collaboratively building it, youcan create something truly
amazing together, which is greatand that's one of the joys of
(07:49):
it for me.
Andrew (07:53):
That's good advice even
for me, because I am in the
midst of building a campaign fora party.
So that's good advice for me tonot overcomplicate it too much
and just let the playerscollaboratively build that world
, and that is very good advice.
(08:16):
So tell me, how many campaignshave you played in this world
that you've created?
Tom (08:26):
I think it'd be five or six
, so we had the risk of boring
you.
We had this ruined city thatthey were exploring.
Then we had a pirate islandadventure where it became very
piratical and that went indirections I hadn't expected.
They were meant to be rescuinga prince and they ended up
(08:48):
becoming pirate lords.
I should have expected that.
Really, we've had a mercenarycompany.
That was a good one.
So all the characters were amercenary company and then
laterally a thieves guild.
They're like a gang within thecity.
So I've taken the original city, the original ruined city, and
now I guess it's 150 or 200years later.
(09:12):
They're then a gang within thiscity as it's built up over time
.
So there's little Easter eggsfor them from the original
campaign Interesting.
I'm trying to think there'sanother one in there too, but I
can't remember what it is nowthat you've put me on the spot.
Andrew (09:29):
That's all right.
So what are some of the mostmemorable moments you've had as
the or that the players have hadin these campaigns?
What are some of the thingsthat really jump out to you
between all those different kindof campaigns within this
(09:51):
environment that you've designed?
Tom (09:54):
There's a few things.
There's been some great finaleswhere everyone's sort of
finished off, you know, beatingthe big bad and everyone's the
high fiving Some others are.
We've had some interesting andpoignant character deaths as
well, where one of my friendswas playing a midwife, a
(10:21):
halfling midwife, and she waslike the, you know, keeping the
party together, making sure theywere being good, effectively,
and they decided to take on adragon and she got killed by
this dragon.
And it was quite a poignantmoment.
It wasn't sad as such, but itwas definitely we all felt it,
(10:42):
which was interesting.
But the player he's prettyrelaxed about character death.
His characters die fairlyregularly.
But yeah, we definitely there'slike that, almost a shared,
just a slight, yeah slight,sadness I suppose.
So that was a real if you werethinking like about like a movie
.
Yeah, it was a really sort ofslow, poignant moment that after
(11:04):
it we've had one moment thatsticks out in all our minds was
a tree which had lots of peoplehanging from it, and the people
hanging from it were allcharacters that were related to
people, that were, or NPCs thatwere related to the characters
(11:25):
in some way or another, and ofcourse, one of them had to
rescue one, and it was thisdemon that they released on the
world and that's had massiveramifications for the rest of
the campaign, well, all thecampaigns following on and that
moment there's a few, a few ofmy
players have said that that wasone of their favorite moments
where it just sort of blew theirmind that there was a demon in
there and then it's just sort ofhad this knock on effect.
(11:47):
But really I think that themost poignant or the best
moments are when the playershave come together to defeat
something and they sort of worktogether and, yeah, it's just
been a great, a great bondingexperience, I suppose, and
everyone's been really happy.
So I'm not an adversarial GM,I'm backing the players.
(12:10):
I try and make it hard.
So it's definitely they'rehaving to overcome obstacles.
But, yes, moments like that,where they they work together,
they come up with a cunning planand actually works.
Andrew (12:23):
That's amazing.
It's always fun to being beingboth, being on both sides of the
coin.
It's fascinating to see what,what things the party comes up
with, what different ways tosolve a problem, because it's,
you know, as as the, as the DM,you probably imagine it's going
(12:46):
to happen one way, and then theycome up with something
completely different way toapproach it, which is which is
equally impressive, but but youknow, something you never really
anticipated.
So that's, that's got to be alot of fun, I'm sure.
Tom (13:00):
It's funny you should say
that.
So over time I've changed theway I write my encounters, so I
used to try and second guesswhat the players were going to
do.
But they're so creative I can't.
I found I can't do it.
So now I'll set up the encounteror set up what's what they're
going to meet, or or theenvironment, and I don't even
(13:21):
think about how it's going to besolved, because I can't.
I can't beat my players or comeup with anything better than my
players.
What they come up with is isway better than anything I could
think of.
So that's why I've starteddoing that, and it saves a lot
of prep time and also you get anamazing result.
Andrew (13:41):
Absolutely, it's always.
I've had this, I've had thesame conversation with, with
multiple people that that I'veinterviewed on the podcast about
, about you know, do you dorailroad the party down the way
you want them to go, or do you,or are you giving this little
bit of a bigger sandbox in whichthey can play and kind of
(14:04):
adventure on their own?
And it's always, always morerewarding, I think, for
everybody just to give a littlebit of that, that autonomy to
the team to really kind offigure things out on their own,
instead of trying to force themdown a pathway that you've
envisioned for them.
Tom (14:24):
Definitely, definitely yeah
, and you get better results
from that as well.
And the other thing, I think,is you get better buy-in from
the players.
So if they feel like they're incontrol of where the story's
going, then they really get intoit.
And rail roadings fine, forsure, you know there's a time
and a place for that as well.
But I found that the playersbuy in and their engagement with
(14:46):
the story definitely increaseswhen they feel like they're
leading in 100,.
Andrew (14:52):
I agree 100, 100%.
So let me ask you this questionnow.
So the people that have come toyour table, were they all
experienced D&D players, or weresome of them new to the game?
What was that group like thatyou kind of run a game for?
Tom (15:15):
It's a really good question
, actually, and it's something I
found really interesting.
So when I got back into it, theplayers I was playing with were
very experienced.
But when I took over the roleof Dungeon Master, we had so we
had one man in his late 50s, wehad myself and a couple of
(15:38):
others in our 40s, and then wehad a father and his daughter,
and his daughter was, I thinkwhen she first started playing,
was 15.
And then when she finishedplaying with us, she was 19.
And her and her dad had neverplayed before.
They just wanted to experiencewhat it was like, and then they
ended up playing with us forfour years, okay, cool.
Andrew (15:57):
So, it's been a real
mixture.
Tom (15:59):
I've also.
I've got a 12 year old son anda 10 year old daughter, so I've
run them through some games andsome of their friends.
Oh my gosh, if you want insightinto how 10 year old and 11
year old boys operate, play D&Dwith us, but they were real
(16:23):
beginners, so I, I with them.
I changed the rules I used.
You can see, behind me there'sa book called ICRPG which is a
more streamlined version ofsimilar sort of mechanics.
So I played that with them,just so it was easier for them
to pick up, and that wasabsolute chaos.
But yeah, there's been a huge,huge range.
And then recently I've beenplaying in a game that my
(16:45):
friends, dming, and two of ourfriends had never played before,
joined in and they really tookto it.
I think I think the way we playis very, we're very,
collaborative and we let people,we try and encourage the
players to come up with ideasthemselves.
We don't want, we don't haveanyone trying to coach them
(17:05):
through it and they were all alittle bit mad, I suppose, but I
think everyone who plays D&D is, so it all worked well.
Andrew (17:14):
Yes, absolutely so.
So what advice?
What advice would you give tosomebody who's interested in
playing D&D for the first time?
What would you, what would yourecommend they do to to get
started?
Should they?
Should they read the books?
Should they just dive into agame?
(17:34):
What would be your, your advicefor, for someone that said to
you hey, you know, I hear youtalking about D&D.
I've always been kind ofcurious where do I, where do I
begin?
Tom (17:48):
So my experience getting
back into D&D was I found a
group at our local gaming storeand just jumped straight in and
we were playing second editionDungeons and Dragons, which I'd
never played before.
So I didn't really know therules.
In fact, even when I play now.
I'm still a bit hazy on some ofthe rules of fifth edition, but
(18:08):
my players keep me straight.
But I think the advice would beto try and find a group.
There are lots of groupspopping up now.
We're in a golden age of roleplaying games, it seems to me.
Andrew (18:19):
True.
Tom (18:20):
And you could find not
necessarily a long term campaign
, but you could go and play aone shot.
Maybe play a different, acouple of different one shots
with different groups, get afeel for how the game works,
alternatively, funnily enough.
So, when I first startedplaying Dungeons and Dragons, it
was a bit of a dirty word.
People were you know you're ageek for playing it and you know
(18:42):
people didn't really want toknow, whereas nowadays, you know
, at work, for instance, I dropit into the conversation every
now and then I was like Dungeonsand Dragons, yeah right, wow.
So there's a lot more peopleare a lot more interested in it.
So I think, even if you justmentioned it to your friends as
a beginner and said look, I'minterested in playing this.
I bet you could find a couple,two or three of your friendship
(19:04):
group who would be interested ingiving it a go.
And then it would be a case ofmaybe taking up the reins as a
dungeon master and just givingit a crack with one of the
starter sets, or something likethat.
Andrew (19:17):
That's great advice.
Yeah, I'm all for just kind ofdiving right in like that's,
that's, that's kind of how I Istarted myself by my co-host,
joe, said to me one day goes,hey, would you be interested in
maybe playing Dungeons, dragonsand and?
And I had, I had known aboutthe game for some time and I'm
(19:39):
like I absolutely would love toplay and Create, roll rolled my
first character and just dove,dove right in.
It's been, it's been a blast.
So I, I, I think that's greatadvice.
Just find, find a group, startyour own group, just just ask,
and I, you're, you're absolutelyright.
It's become far more I don't sayacceptable, but more mainstream
(20:04):
.
Maybe that's the word that I'mlooking for.
It it's the Table-toprole-playing games have become
far more mainstream.
You see it so much more in popculture, stranger things, big
bang theory, you see, you see alot of mentions, I mean Joe
Manganiello, or critical role,like it's just become.
It's become part of pop culturenow.
(20:24):
So so I think it's a lot more.
It's far from the, the satanicpanic of the 1980s when you know
it's it's.
We've grown past that thesedays.
So that's, that's, that'spretty good.
Yeah, I, I'm just like I said.
I'm just I.
I would wholeheartedly welcomeanybody anybody to to sit down
(20:49):
in the game if I Said this isthis is I've.
I've DM'd a little bit.
This is this is this newcampaign.
That is gonna be one of myfirst attempts at DMing, so I'm
a little nervous, but I Thinkit's gonna be fun.
Tom (21:03):
I think, I think you'll be
fine, I think once you get into,
I hope after the first sessionthe first sessions always
nerve-wracking.
Yeah but then when you realizethe players are there to have a
good time and they want toengage with your world, it
becomes easier.
It's, but I know what you mean.
It's that first session Nerves.
You're thinking, oh, have Idone enough prep?
Have I created the world wellenough?
(21:24):
As?
Andrew (21:24):
a story engaging enough?
Tom (21:26):
and the answer is always
yes.
It's just getting over thatfirst session.
Andrew (21:32):
Right, right, right.
So so that that brings me tothis question, which, Because
you bring up a good point and we, we talk about the rules and
there's so many books and andall that, so so, yeah, so the
advice of diving right in likeare there any other?
Because because it can, it canthe complexity of the game.
There's Seven different dice,there's the players handbook,
(21:56):
there's the dungeon mastersguide, there's the game, the
dungeon masters guide there's,you know, there's all the, all
the, the books of, of Adventuresand and Monsters and and races
and and everything you know.
Is there, what's, what's the?
Is there a way to simplify thatand streamline that for people
(22:21):
like what would be the?
What would be a way to kind ofsimplify all that down for For
your, for your kind of newerplayers?
Tom (22:31):
So I would say so.
I agree, there's so many booksand so many rules I'm not across
.
Occasionally my players willbring things in from other books
and I just trust them.
I don't really question ituntil something becomes
overpowered.
Even then that rarely reallyhappens.
So I would stick to the playershandbook and the dungeon
(22:55):
masters guide.
I think you don't need to gobeyond that, particularly at the
beginning For someone who isplaying.
If you're introducing someoneto the concepts for the first
time, I will often use adifferent, more streamlined
system.
So there's one called easy D6by DM Scotty.
I Ran some friends through thatand it's just using D6's.
(23:19):
I Actually my wife's not arole-player at all, but I ran
her and some of our friendsthrough a horror game based on
alien Called those dark placesagain just uses D6.
It's really simple.
It's more about the role-playingthe rolling of the dice just to
get the whole concept throughof how role-playing works.
(23:40):
But if you, if they're divinginto D&D, yeah, players handbook
and and maybe or maybe they getthe dungeon master to create
some Pre-generated characters.
I think I haven't looked at thestarter set, but I think that's
what the starter set has in it.
Andrew (23:56):
That might be a good
place to yeah, I think you're
right, that's, that's, yeah, apre-generated character, because
I've been, I've been talkingwith a friend of mine who wants
to learn, learn D&D, and it'sI've been fielding so many
questions about what about thisand what about that and what
about this, and it's you know,like when you, when you roll the
(24:18):
dice for the, for the differentability scores, and it's like,
well, do I need to be strongeror more charismatic, like you
know, and it's all depending onthe race.
So so that's a good point, thatthe pre-built Maybe, because I,
we, we interviewed one personand and they actually they run
D&D campaigns At local breweriesand they have a whole set of
(24:43):
pre-built characters that theyjust hand out to Everybody so
you don't have to go throughthat whole process.
So that's that's a really goodpoint, maybe.
Maybe just finding, finding apre-built character that you can
play and and Get used to themechanics of the game before you
get into all the the characterbuilding as well, because that's
that that that's probably oneof the most confusing parts I
(25:05):
think is is Is building acharacter to start out with yeah
, because you don't know whatyou don't know at the beginning.
Tom (25:11):
So you're thinking I should
.
Andrew (25:13):
I be an elf.
Tom (25:13):
And then what does that
mean?
But then one of the joys- ofplaying with players who haven't
played before is they don'tcome with those preconceived
notions of what a dwarf shouldbe like or you know what a magic
user should do.
They are actually like a, ablank canvas, and they, when
(25:33):
they do create characters, whenyou do get to that stage and I
agree, the pre-built charactersare a good idea at the beginning
, but when you do get to thatcharacter building stage,
they're actually a lot morecreative sometimes than Maybe
the the older, more experiencedplayers can be, because they're
coming in with fresh ideas and acompletely new perspective.
Andrew (25:53):
I love so many of the
new races that they've been
creating that that people can,can use for for characters,
because there's some, there'ssome really fun things we had.
We had one player in one of ourcampaigns was a was a turtle,
and when they went, when theywent into the shell, like their
AC was like 23 or something, itwas like it was ridiculous.
(26:14):
So it was.
It was so funny because it'slike you never really think
about that, but it's like theygot this, this hard shell and
and they're, they're safe fromthere.
So there's, there's some reallyfun things that you can, you
can do with those, with thosecharacters for sure.
So what let's, let's dive into,let's, let's, let's, let's
change paths now and let's talkabout D&D at work.
(26:38):
So we've, we've, we've had funin our, with our friends and
everything, and, and now we haveto.
Now we have to commute intowork in the morning and and sit
at our, sit at our desk andstare at our computer, if, if
you are working in an office oryou're working remotely and
Talking with people over slack,but how?
So?
(26:58):
So talk to us about D&D at work.
What, what is this, what isthis project?
And and and what should we knowabout how, how to take those
D&D principles into into ourworkspace?
Tom (27:12):
Yes, thanks.
Yes, so I've.
I've been thinking so.
I love leadership, my day job,I'm a general manager.
I love leadership.
I find the concepts of it reallyinteresting and of course, I
love D&D and the role-playingaspects Mm-hmm, and over time
there's something being sort ofniggling in my head, thinking
(27:33):
there's actually somecorrelation here.
You can use the two thingstogether, and so D&D at work is
really me exploring the conceptsof leadership, teamwork and
culture and how D&D can helpthose aspects in the workplace.
It's very much early stages andI'm really just exploring the
(27:56):
concepts, but there's a coupleof things there.
One.
The first one is, as we'vetalked about, you can create a
real bond between people goingthrough adventures together.
So playing Dungeons Dragons atlunchtime or something like that
with your team can be reallybeneficial.
So there's that element of it,but I think as well that there's
.
You can really get people totest out leadership principles,
(28:21):
try out negotiation, learn thosesort of softer leadership
skills through role playing.
I've had a couple ofexperiences where they haven't
really it's not been roleplaying per se, but it's been
pretty close.
I did a negotiation unit in myMBA a while a long time ago and
we basically spent three daysrole playing negotiations where
(28:44):
we were pretending to be leadersof countries, leaders of
companies, negotiating, and itwas amazing.
Being a massive fan of D&D, Iloved it and I also learned
negotiation skills at the sametime.
And then I did a leadershipcourse for a job a few years ago
and the same thing a big partof it was acting as a team and
(29:07):
role playing, and they actuallybrought in actors for us to role
play against or with and so Ithink you can teach people in
the classroom about leadershipprinciples, but it's very
difficult to get them toexperience it until they're
actually in the workplace, andthen it's almost too late.
So if you had a junior leadergoing in and they start yelling
(29:31):
and shouting, they're going tolose leadership capital and the
faith of their team very, veryquickly.
But if you could put them in ahigh pressure scenario, in a
Dungeons and Dragons typescenario, and really put the
pressure on, put time pressureon, have moral conundrums in
there, have the team trying towork together, but have them in
(29:51):
a leadership role, you couldreally get them to try that, try
their leadership style out.
If they start yelling andshouting in that scenario, it
doesn't matter, you can debriefat the end and explain how their
behaviors affected the team.
And then so somethinginteresting you know you were
asking me about my memories ofD&D and there's been some
(30:13):
amazing in my memory.
I can still pull out some ofthese experiences I've had.
There's a book called Me,myself and why, and the writer,
whose name escapes me now, saysthat we remember role playing
games, experiences as if theywere real, so in our memory
treats them as if they were real.
(30:34):
So you can have theseleadership experiences and it's
almost as if it's as if you'velived it, so you've suddenly got
this experience there that youcan draw on when you go into the
workplace.
So I think there's a bigopportunity there.
Start putting future leadersand younger and older leaders as
(30:54):
well through Dungeons andDragons type experiences and
it'll make them stronger andmore well rounded by the time
they get into their team andstart leading.
Andrew (31:04):
That's really quite
fascinating.
I loved how you were talkingabout the shared experiences and
remembering those stories.
There was somebody else that Iinterviewed on the podcast and
they were saying the same thingthat when you are recalling
these stories, it's never.
(31:26):
Oh, do you remember when mycharacter did such and such?
It's like no, do you rememberwhen we were battling that
dragon and I pulled out my warhammer and, like I jumped on the
dragon and hit him in the head?
It's a very real experience.
It's never about what thecharacter did, and that's about
(31:50):
what we did and what I did andyou did, and together we were
able to defeat something.
So, yes, I completely agree.
What was the name of that book?
Tom (32:00):
again, it's called Me
Myself and Why, and I can't
remember the name of the author,unfortunately.
I heard about it.
Matt Mercer was beinginterviewed.
Oh, when was it Okay?
So I was watching an interviewwith him and he mentioned it and
I was like, right, I've got tocheck this out.
So yeah, matt Mercer, put meonto it, not directly, of course
(32:22):
.
Andrew (32:22):
Interesting.
I will make sure that we lookthis up and I'll put it in the
show notes.
I'll put a link to the book inthe show notes for everybody so
everybody can check it out forsure.
Tom (32:39):
Yeah, good idea.
Andrew (32:40):
I think there are some
tremendous benefits to role
playing.
I previously did an interviewwith the psychologist and an
educator middle school educatorand talking about the
psychological benefits ofplaying tabletop role playing
games like D&D, in group therapysituations and in educational
(33:04):
environments.
So why not the work environment?
Like you said, it's a if youknow, for me, if I were going to
walk into a leadership seminarand they're like okay, we're
going to pair up and we're goingto role play this, like I'm
like okay, like it's, you know,I don't know it doesn't like I
(33:27):
just struggle with the realityof it.
But when you put an obstacle infront of a group and things like
that, like the big bad,whatever, it is a dragon, you
know, whatever.
And now you've got to worktogether because you know, as
(33:49):
player characters, you've gotdifferent strengths and
different abilities thaneverybody else.
So everybody really has to worktogether.
And yeah, there's there'snegotiation skills that you know
.
I sometimes, sometimes I wish Icould just roll for persuasion
(34:10):
and in the, in the corporateworld, you know but definitely I
could roll a d20 and it wouldbe just that easy.
Tom (34:17):
But wait to d20.
Absolutely.
Andrew (34:21):
Absolutely.
How have you personally used,used what you have learned in
D&D and and those, those kind ofyour leadership skills, how?
How have they been developed,you know, through D&D, and how
have you translated that intointo the work environment?
Tom (34:44):
That's?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I wrote a blog post, I think itwas called why Dungeon Masters
Make Good Leaders, and I thinkso I've been.
So now I do play in games aswell as Dungeon Master, but a
few years ago I was.
I was Dungeon Mastering mainly,and I think when you're a
Dungeon Master, you have to drawon leadership skills, whether
(35:07):
you like it or not.
So you've got to try andcoordinate the group Although it
doesn't always fall to the DM,but often it does.
So you're coordinating thegroup, you're trying to make
sure everyone's having a goodtime.
You're making sure thateveryone's included.
So I take it upon myself tomake sure everyone around the
table is is getting a spotlight.
You're.
(35:27):
You're planning the session, soyour planning skills have to be
up to speed.
And then the whole socialnegotiation yeah, you have to be
the leader.
So even at the beginning of agame, you know what it's like.
Everyone gets in the room,everyone's happy to be there.
Yeah, chat, chat, chat, chat,chat.
You want to start the game.
Right, right, right.
(35:47):
So I found I have to be quitedirective in my leadership style
at the very beginning of everysession and say right, cut
everyone short.
Say right, we're starting now.
All right, okay, great, everyonesort of gets into it and then
so.
So there's a few things there.
So, yes, the Dungeon Master,you have to be a leader.
There's all sorts of differentaspects.
But then there's differentleadership styles as you work
(36:07):
through.
So directive at the beginning,corralling everyone to actually
start, and you've gotcollaborative.
You want to make sure you'redrawing people in, they're all
getting involved, you're notjust directing the story at them
, they're helping direct it.
Then sometimes you have to bedemocratic.
You have to try and get youknow the group to vote on what's
(36:28):
going on, and also you have tobe able to read the room if
someone's getting upset.
So there's emotionalintelligence there as well.
If you can see someone'sgetting upset about something,
you have to try and diffuse thesituation.
So, as the DM you're that Ithink you're the leader of the
group or you've got to behavelike one.
So through doing that that's, Inoticed that things I was doing
(36:52):
at work were mirroring what wasgoing on at the table.
So I think yeah, I think it'sbeen a great way for me to hone
my leadership skills and as I'vebecome more aware of different
leadership models and one inparticular, decision making, the
Uda loop for decision making,which is observe, orient, decide
(37:13):
and act.
I've sort of tried to put thatwhen I, as a player, I try to
include that and try and includethat model when I'm making
decisions.
And then laterally, I put apost out a couple of weeks ago
about a failed negotiation.
So I put a negotiation out tothe group and they failed
(37:36):
spectacularly, which was greatfor the story and it was great
fun.
But then I could take awaylearnings from that about well,
how would it have gone betterthrough what I know about
negotiation?
So there's little things likethat I pick up on all the time.
So, to answer your question,I'm dipping into the Dungeons
and Dragons games a lot with myleadership and honing my
(37:58):
leadership.
Andrew (38:01):
That's great.
So let me ask you about yourmost recent blog post, the
leadership styles unveiled,translating D&D dynamics into
the business world.
So talking about leadership andthe different types of leaders
that there are.
So how do you see these leadersin a D&D game, and are there
(38:33):
ones that are more successful ina corporate environment, or
does it depend on the situation?
How do you translate thoseleadership, who those leaders
are in D&D, into who they becomein the corporate world?
Tom (38:52):
This is where I think D&D
has real value.
Is that when you're playing thegame?
so you've got maybe four or fivedifferent styles or types.
You can switch between them.
So a player say, if they'replaying a lord or something,
they can be directive and theycan start sort of trying to
order people about.
(39:13):
Or if there's a high pressuresituation, maybe one of the
players takes the lead andstarts being very directive
We've got to do this to get outof that, what have you?
And then other times maybe theteam are planning what they're
going to do next.
Then it becomes collaborative,so the players can switch
between different styles,depending as the situation
(39:33):
dictates.
And alluding back to what youwere saying, in the corporate
world you can't or I don'tbelieve that you can be just one
type of leader.
I think you have to be able toswitch between different styles
depending on the situation.
For example, if I'm at work andthere's a health and safety
incident, I have to become verydirective about getting things
done, whereas if we're doing ourstrategic planning for the year
(39:57):
, then it becomes morecollaborative, a bit more
democratic.
You're getting people's ideasand I think you can actually
replicate that at the table aswell, and depending on what
situations happening.
So, yeah, I think Interesting.
Andrew (40:14):
Yeah, it's different.
Yeah, no, go ahead.
Tom (40:16):
I mean it gives people a
chance to play around with the
different styles as well,Because you don't get a chance
to really do that in the realworld or in the workplace, you
start switching styles.
Andrew (40:27):
No, you don't.
Tom (40:28):
People think you're a bit
unhinged, whereas you can round
the table, you can try thesedifferent styles and then you
can see what works for you andbegin to really shape what your
overall style is and which bitsyou pick on and which bits you
don't.
Andrew (40:45):
Right, that's a great
point that using D&D in that way
is a great testing ground forthe skills of who you want to
become as a leader.
So it's a little bit it's both,I mean, because at some point
(41:06):
it's a very high pressuresituation if danger is imminent,
or it could be a very lowpressure situation when you're
trying to negotiate passage on aship somewhere.
So it's and it is.
I think D&D is a great place todo that.
Let me ask you this questionhave you ever thought about
(41:29):
because I've thought about thisever since I had that interview
with talking about D&D andtherapy and D&D and education
about actually running D&D gamesas a leadership program for
corporate teams, doing teambuilding exercises or things
(41:55):
like that as a business, as away to translate what you've
learned throughout your lifetimein both leadership and game
playing and combine those tohelp others?
Tom (42:08):
I have thought about that a
lot and I think that's I think
there's a real opportunity there.
I think people it'd be a lotcheaper than a lot of corporate
training.
You can really build in culture.
You can really highlight theculture.
(42:28):
You can highlight issues thatthe team may be having, but in a
safe, imaginary, fantasticalway.
One thing I think that gets inthe way of that potentially with
Dungeons and Dragons is thecomplexity of the ruleset.
So I've been exploring rulesetslike Cthulhu Dark, which is a
one-stat D6 system by GrahamWalsley I think I've got his
(42:54):
name right and that way therules don't get in the way.
That's all about the roleplaying and the decision making.
The other thing I think wouldbe really good and I've been
giving this a bit of thought is,you know, special Forces and
the military.
They always have like a bootcamp or a Hell Week where they
really put their teams throughthe ringers.
(43:16):
The Navy SEALs in particularare renowned for this and I
thought and at the end of it theones who get through have got
this real shared sense ofcamaraderie.
They've all got this reallytight knit identity.
Of course you can't do anythingas extreme as that in the
corporate world.
What you could do is replicatesomething similar around the
(43:38):
table, so you could have a roleplaying game with your new
cohort coming through or a newteam, and then you put the
pressure on, you put obstaclesin their way.
You know dragons flying in leftand right, whatever it is, or
you know their ship sinking andthey've got to get through it
Right.
And then you really put themthrough the ringer and there's
(44:00):
maybe different challenges.
They have to do not physical,because you can't put people
through physical endurance tests, but you can put them through
this sort of shared experiencetogether and, like we were
talking about before, you know Iremember times around the table
where we've overcome things.
(44:20):
You know one of my charactersand the team we were playing
with, we saved a village frombeing overrun by goblins.
I still remember that.
I can remember my characterrunning down the street and
blowing a bugle, trying to geteveryone, to warn everyone what
was happening, and so you couldget teams you can have corporate
teams doing the same and theysay I remember that time, you
know, we all banded together andwe defeated the dragon or we
(44:43):
stopped the ogre horde, and thatthen becomes part of their team
identity and their team culture.
And then, as new people arecoming into the business,
they're being put throughsimilar experiences.
It's that shared identitybegins to emerge.
So I do think there's somethingin that, and so, to answer your
question, yes, I have thoughtabout that and I am.
I think over time, as dnd atworkcom keeps going, I'll be
(45:06):
exploring those, those concepts,in more detail.
I think the key will be findinga leader who sees value in it
for their team and as, again, asyou mentioned earlier in the
podcast, we're in a we're in agolden age, dnd's mainstream.
Now it would be a much easierthing to get across the line
(45:28):
than it maybe used to be 10years ago.
Andrew (45:32):
I completely agree.
I will.
I will keep a close eye on dndat work to see what what
transpires with that.
I'm looking forward to seeingwhat you, what you've got up
your sleeve.
Tom (45:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's going to
be exciting.
Andrew (45:49):
So how do you, how often
do you play dnd?
How do you?
How do you, how do you balanceyour love for dnd and work?
What's your, what's your work,life balance as far as.
Tom (46:00):
As far as that's concerned,
yeah, again, another really
good question, because it's veryeasy to tilt things one way or
the other.
I'm a big proponent, absolutelyyeah, it is, isn't it?
So I'm a big proponent ofbalance.
So I've got a few things I needto balance a family, cause I've
(46:20):
got two kids and a wife.
I love dnd.
I want to keep that.
That's a important to me, justfrom a from a mental health
point of view, I suppose.
And just enjoyment you play isis a very important aspect of
life that people don't giveenough credence to.
And then, of course, work aswell, and I've got some other
(46:42):
hobbies and things I like to do,and you want to look after your
friends and all of that.
So I have one Sunday a monthwhere I play in a friend of
mine's campaign, and then everysecond Thursday I run my soul
chire campaign, and then everynow and then we sneak in extra
games.
But one thing we're doing nextweekend, my friends and I, we're
(47:09):
taking ourselves away to anAirbnb and we're going to play
Dungeons and Dragons and othergames for a whole weekend, which
something we've never donebefore.
Andrew (47:19):
Oh, very nice.
Tom (47:20):
So it's making sure that
it's part of my existence.
But you're right, you need tokeep balance.
And I found I was running.
So I used to run the Thursdaygame and the Sunday game and
actually I found, as a DM, I wasburning out because I was
having to be create creatively,come up with scenarios for all
these games.
I was really busy at work, thekids were and you know I was
(47:44):
doing stuff with them and withmy wife and I was like, hang on,
I haven't got the bandwidth forthis.
So then I passed the Sundaygame to have a good friend of
mine, and then I got balancedback.
So it's easy to take on toomuch and I think you just have
this important that you justrecognize it in that in yourself
.
If you find you're not enjoyingit anymore or you're feeling
(48:05):
stretched, then you know, letsomeone else take over the reins
for a bit.
Andrew (48:10):
You're absolutely right.
It's knowing what yourlimitations are and, again,
making sure everything is donein balance, absolutely.
Yeah, I'm goodness.
I think I'm playing in threecampaigns at the moment, but one
is only one, like one Sunday amonth, so it's nothing crazy.
(48:36):
Another campaign we try to playevery Monday.
That's only for about two hours, so it's not a huge time
consuming thing.
And then I play another one onWednesday nights and that's.
We've got different people indifferent time zones, so we
start at like 10 o'clock atnight and go to like one or two
in the morning and that's that'slike.
(48:58):
That's like my.
I don't want to say it's notthat I enjoy that one the most,
but it's, it's the characterthat I created.
Like I always try to create forevery campaign just something
that I've never I haven't donebefore.
I try not to, I try not to getcaught in a rut, so I always try
to come up with somethingdifferent.
(49:19):
This is like a tiefling warlockwho who may or may not be good
or bad?
So it's, I'm exploring morallygray areas with with this
tiefling about and trying tofigure out what's going to
happen.
So it's fun.
Each campaign has its ownbenefits.
(49:40):
I love the groups that I playwith on Monday.
I've played with them for years, so it's just a lot of fun.
What advice would you give?
Let's circle back to, as wekind of wrap this up.
What advice would you give tothat person again thinking about
(50:03):
getting into D&D, like what's,or even just the new player?
What's something that you'velearned that over the years that
you wish you had known all theway back then?
Tom (50:18):
So I think something that
I've learned over time is the
rules don't really matter.
So people get hung up on therules, right, and they're oh, if
you fall, it's this much damage.
If you, whatever it is, oh, youfall in the water.
This is the rule.
For that, actually, it doesn'tmatter.
(50:38):
So my group and I, we don't lookrules up anymore at the table.
If we can't remember what it is, we just make it up so, and
then maybe we look it up lateror maybe we don't.
It's more about the story, theadventure that everyone's having
and the fun.
So if you're starting out andyou're like I'm not really sure
(51:00):
how this works, I mean, 5e ispretty, pretty straightforward.
At least the basics of 5E arepretty straightforward.
So you can pretty much wing itif you need to, and it doesn't
matter, and the people aroundthe table are having a good time
, you're telling a great story,you're having these amazing
adventures together.
That's the important bit.
(51:20):
The rules really take secondspace and if you remember, in
the Dungeon Master's Guide Ithink it's the Dungeon Master's
Guide it always says that therules are a guideline.
So it doesn't matter whetheryou get them right or not.
They're a guideline.
So keep that in mind and justget on with it roll some dice
(51:42):
and have fun.
Andrew (51:46):
I completely agree.
I think I've heard people referto it as the rule of cool.
The rule of cool, like it'swhatever, is going to make the
game enjoyable and move alongfor everybody at the table.
That's the way to go.
It's you don't want and thatwould be kind of my advice for
(52:12):
the people thinking aboutstarting playing D&D you know,
try out different DMs.
You know different DMs havedifferent styles.
So it's always, you know, findone that works with your
personality and find a groupthat works for you and but yeah,
(52:33):
just have fun.
It's that's what it's all about.
It just enjoy the camaraderieof the adventuring party.
You know, doing things together, finding solutions for problems
, and you'll have a great time.
Exactly.
Tom (52:49):
It's all about fun, isn't
it?
I think you've encapsulatedthat really well, absolutely.
Andrew (52:56):
I completely agree.
It really is about having fun.
And if you're not having fun,there's always another table out
there that you can join, sodon't let that spoil your
experience with D&D.
Tom (53:13):
Exactly right, exactly
right.
Andrew (53:14):
Excellent, tom.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
I really appreciate you being aguest on the show.
Really looking forward to I'llmake sure I mention it, so it's
dndatworkcom.
Tom (53:32):
Is your site correct?
That's right.
So dndatworkcom, sodndatworkcom, and that's where
I'm exploring all these conceptsof leadership, teamwork and
culture, and from the world'sgreatest game.
Andrew (53:48):
Awesome and, like I said
I will, I'll put all those in
the show notes, so everybody'sgot access to all that and we'll
look forward to seeing whatcomes next for me, this has been
a great experience.
Tom (53:59):
Thank you very much.
I've really enjoyed it.
Andrew (54:03):
Thank you.
I thank you so much, thus said.