July 20, 2023 • 33 mins
Looking for practical ways to support your child's learning journey, especially if they have unique learning needs? If so, our latest episode featuring DJ Nicholson, an experienced educational coach, and advocate for children with disabilities, is a must-listen! DJ is passionate about creating engaging learning environments and empowering parents to become strong advocates for their kids.
She discusses ways parents can use their time off work efficiently and access resources to support their children's education best. If you are a parent or passionate about education, this candid discussion with DJ is not to be missed. Tune in, learn, and get empowered!
DJ Nicholson
Educational Mentor | Trainer | Inclusion Specialist
Schedule a meeting:
inclusiveology.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cindy (00:07):
Welcome back to another episode of Let Me Interrupt.
So, as you may have heard lastepisode, we are kicking off our
season two with really amazingguests, and today is just an
example of what is to come.
I want to hand it over toMelissa to roll out the red
carpet for our amazing gueststoday.
Melissa (00:28):
Yeah, delighted to be here with you, cindy, our
phenomenal guest DJ.
This episode is going to benear and dear to my heart, for
sure, and I'm sure we're goingto touch on that.
But to all of our listeners wewant to welcome DJ Nicholson,
who is a 28 year old veteranteacher, educational coach and
trainer with a lifelong passionfor education and ensuring that
(00:50):
children with disabilities andlearning differences are engaged
and supported in theireducational environment.
Dj superpowers include creatingunique learning options for
children, problem solving forsuccess and building empowered
learners.
She now coaches parents toadvocate for their children's
best learning through tools andstrategies for engagement,
(01:12):
accessibility and flexibility.
When she is not engaged withher career passion, she is
volunteering with a pug rescue,which I definitely want to touch
on and her pug rescue group,mentoring young teachers and
doing yoga.
So, dj Nicholson, welcome tothe podcast.
DJ Nicholson (01:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Melissa (01:30):
Oh, we're delighted to have you.
Cindy (01:32):
Yes, so let's just jump in and tell us a little bit you
know about yourself beyond thebio, and what motivated you to
focus on children withdisabilities and learning
differences.
DJ Nicholson (01:43):
So I really feel like my love for children with
disabilities and learningdifferences really started when
I was a little kid.
You know, I had a sibling thathad some different types of
disabilities, and I had someexperiences when I was in the
first grade with children on theplayground.
This was back in the midseventies and children were
(02:04):
coming out of a stateinstitution and they were coming
onto my elementary schoolcampus and they were on the
playground with us, but that wasthe only time that we ever saw
them, you know talking with withus on the playground.
We didn't see them in thelibrary or the cafeteria or any
of our classes.
And so you know, knowing thatwas in the mid seventies when I
(02:27):
fast forward through, you know,20 years of teaching and six,
seven, eight years of coachingand training, and in 2023, we're
still having some of the sameconversations about needing kids
to be included in learning,whatever that looks like, and we
can really I mean my goodnessfinally move away from these
(02:50):
exclusionary options that wehave for kids, because I truly
believe that every child can beincluded in learning.
It's up to us, as adults, tofigure out how to get in there.
Melissa (03:02):
I love that.
I said in the bio that thispodcast is kind of near and dear
to my heart, you know, andCindy, I will let you kind of
you know, share what you aremost comfortable with.
But Cindy and I have been manyconversations about the learning
abilities of our own children.
I have a son off to college andwhen he was two I didn't know,
(03:25):
I couldn't envision him readinga book and I questioned many
nights how he was going to evenlearn how to tie his shoes.
He was placed on the spectrumat a very young age.
We entered early intervention,super early, which was
fundamental right for hissuccesses.
I think that having an advocatefor your child is huge.
(03:47):
So I feel like the roles are alittle bit reversed.
You know, my son has comereally full circle.
He's doing well, he'sself-sufficient, driving
girlfriend, college, you knowall these great things.
But this podcast, I feel it'sgoing to resonate with someone
who may have some of thoseworries and those doubts.
I know Cindy and I've hadnumerous conversations, so I'm
going to kind of pause there,take a little pulse, check, see
(04:10):
if you have any thoughts aroundwhat you know, what I have to
share.
DJ Nicholson (04:14):
Well, first of all, thank you for just opening
up and sharing the success storyof your son, and I think that
that speaks volumes to parentsthat it is possible.
We have to believe that learningis possible, social growth is
(04:34):
possible and the world reallythe world is their oyster, as
they used to say.
I mean, there's just so muchpotential but we have to know
how to best support and Iapplaud you for early
intervention because that'sreally where it starts.
And so, whether your child istwo or three or however old, the
(04:59):
younger we can get systems inplace, supports and resources in
place, the better off they'regoing to be with learning and
independence and all of that.
So I think it just speaksvolumes, just that you know
you're, you're.
You were worried at two, butthen here he is, you know off to
college and you know like kindof live in his life Well, and I
(05:20):
think you know I think I don'tsee myself as a traditional
advocate because I see my roleas empowering parents, so they
have the tools to advocate fortheir child, so they are fully
immersed in everything they needto know to bring their
(05:41):
information about their child tothe IEP table.
Melissa (05:44):
The term diagnosis is scary, right, scary, whether
it's a diagnosis of cancer ordiagnosis of a spectrum disorder
for a child, not to mention ifyou're doing it as a single
parent.
For me, single mom, 100%working, nurse, working, shift
work, you know doing that hustleand you know trying to get him
(06:05):
to his early intervention,picking him up from daycare, it
was a really I mean I have tokind of celebrate, you know what
I've, what I've really beenthrough and endured, and I mean
I celebrate him.
But for single parents who arelistening, it is tough.
So it's kind of the segue intothe next question about work and
(06:26):
how to approach employers whomay not understand that you
might need additional time offfrom work and what that really
looks like.
DJ Nicholson (06:36):
So I think there's definitely going to be
times when parents need to taketime off from work, but I think
the best way to manage that timeis to have a person or a place
that you can go and get the bulkof your information.
So I've had some experienceswith parents where they are
(07:00):
overwhelmed, they're stressedand they're freaking out and
they get on the internet andthey start searching and
searching and searching and nextthing you know they're meeting
with, you know, thispsychologist and this therapist
and this person and they're justall over the place.
So that can be very timeconsuming, very overwhelming.
(07:21):
But I think that if parentshave like, if they had someone
you know, not me, but like me orme that is kind of a one stop
shop when it comes to looking atlearning possibilities and
learning options that then theycan spend that time learning
from a professional.
(07:42):
But then they have theknowledge when they go into an
IEP meeting that they are fullyequipped, that they can go in
there with confidence.
The meeting does not have to be,you know, three and four hours
I've sat in somewhere.
They're that long becauseparents are overwhelmed and they
want.
Parents want to take the timeto learn.
(08:03):
So when you're in the meetingand in those situations where
you know they're, everyone atthe table is talking about your
child and you want this positiveconnection with everyone at the
table, you want there to be apositive outcome and you want to
capture all the things thatyour child needs.
So that's not the time to belearning, learning new things.
(08:26):
You know what I mean.
Like parents need to beequipped ahead of time, but
equipped in a way where you aregetting like tried and true,
factual information and you'renot out there searching the
waters.
I mean it's, it's murky.
Melissa (08:42):
It is murky.
I heard an advocate, one, saylet's not call it disability,
let's call it capability, andthat's just just gives me
shivers to think about that.
I mean, you know you go intothese meetings and, cindy, you
know in the beginning you feelthat the focus is on really the
disability and you want yourchild, in all terms, to be
(09:06):
normal, and so you know my heartgoes out to you.
But this is why this podcast isreally really crucial, crucial.
Cindy (09:18):
And that's such a great tip because, I mean, it's such a
different way of thinking aboutit.
I mean, every time I've gone tolike a doctor or a specialist,
I go with let me let them tellme what it is.
And hearing like you know thatthat is not the time you want to
come.
You know prepared, you want tocome with what, what questions
(09:42):
you really want to get to likeeven with just simple things,
like my son had an eye infectionthe other day and we went to
the doctor and you know he wasexplaining the difference
between a bacterial and a viraland the information that we got
there, while he was alsoscreaming because he didn't want
to be sitting down or touched.
We walked away and you know myhusband had one version and I
(10:06):
had the other version and itjust didn't.
It makes sense that you'reright.
Like that may not be the mostconducive to getting everything
that you might need.
DJ Nicholson (10:17):
Well, and I like what Melissa said to about you
know, switching up the worddisability, and I agree with you
100%.
So I, if that's that isinteresting, because it can be.
It's a very sensitive word.
Some people in the disabilitycommunity like that word, some
people don't, some people areoffended.
So I go back and forth betweencapability, learning, difference
(10:40):
, disability, unique abilities,special skills, like whatever it
is, and so here's my take onthat.
Every single person on theplanet is different.
We're all different and that'sthat's part of what makes us
beautiful as as humans, as weget to be different and so it's
(11:02):
just a matter of figuring outyou know what works for
everybody, so you can.
You can call it a disability,but just because someone needs,
like, an opportunity for moremovement or needs to take a
break or needs you knowdifferent tools in the classroom
, that's not.
I mean, yes, it's a.
It's a.
It's a disability in the waythat the world kind of looks at
(11:26):
it, but it really is.
It's just a different way ofapproaching learning.
It's a different way offocusing.
We all have our little thingsthat we do.
Cindy (11:37):
Yeah, yeah, and right now that you, right before we jump
into the next question, Ithought immediately to you know,
the world changes, right, likeit changes, and the different
expectations, and even just thecountry we live in, like
education is done completelydifferent in other countries and
some work better than others,some are more hands on outside
(11:59):
and you have that movement.
But I just had a flashback toand I know Ben's grandmother is
not listening so I'll say it youknow, just when he was like six
months or like he was walking,was probably a year, and he was
running, he wanted to toucheverything, and she's like why
(12:21):
can't he just sit down?
You know, because another babythat came to visit her just sat
there, and so it was likeeveryone's different and that's
right, like we have to be opento the differences that people
have, you know, all as adultsand as children.
DJ Nicholson (12:41):
Well and knowing to that.
You know, children are childrenand one of the beautiful things
about them is an incrediblesense of curiosity and a need to
move and a need to exploretheir environment.
And so I mean, just if I canshare this little like anecdote
A couple of years ago I was Iwas an instructional coach in my
(13:03):
district down here in Floridafor many years, and a couple of
years ago I was working at aschool and I was talking to the
principal about the way that herkindergartners walked in line,
and so it was kind of the sortof a different policy that you
know we want to have, likebubble gum and bunny tails,
meaning like mouth should looklike with big bubbles in them
(13:26):
and hands go behind their backslike holding onto a little bunny
tail.
And she, she said to herkindergarten teachers like that
needs to stop.
We are not training childrenfor the military, we are just
trying to get them from theclassroom to the library.
That's all you got to do Ifwe're not trying to get make
(13:47):
every child do exactly the samething.
If they want to walk in pairsand hold hands, let them.
If they want to skip, let themhave control.
But let them like, let them,they need the time to wiggle and
move around and I can't.
(14:10):
Yeah, she now works in a lovelyprivate school.
Cindy (14:19):
And I wish, you know, I wish that a lot of educators and
a lot of places had that samemindset.
I can't say that it's not scaryto think about, I mean, with
everything else going in schools, but I think that's the side of
that.
It is also kind of like scaredto think about having to fit to
(14:40):
a norm Even now, right.
And as we think about this, Iwant to touch on some barriers,
because you know I don't want tobe a negative Nancy here, but
you know, there and as a parentyou immediately think of, like
here's all the negative thingsthat could happen that I have to
(15:00):
prepare for, right.
And so can you give us a littlebit of insight of on what
you're hearing from parents?
Is it pertains to some of thebarriers that they're seeing,
that they're maybe preanticipating, so you kind of
work with them to mitigate thatand any advice around those
(15:22):
types of barriers?
DJ Nicholson (15:23):
Okay.
So barriers are one of myfavorite things to talk about
and I always start my barrierconversation with children are
never, ever barriers.
No matter what the situation,the child is not a barrier.
So it really is up to us asadults, as parents and
professionals and educators, tofigure out the best way to
(15:44):
remove barriers so kids canreally be included in learning.
So barriers can be items andobjects in the classroom, they
can be people and they can bespaces.
So I'll give you some examplesof each of those.
So an example of an item or anobject is really.
(16:08):
I'll just say we need to addsome items or objects in.
So if we have a kiddo that'sstruggling with reading and
they're losing their place everytime they're reading a passage
in a book that maybe they needlike a reading ruler or a
reading tracker to help themkind of track down the page,
(16:29):
that is an object that we canuse, a tool that removes that
barrier of him getting lost.
So we can also eliminate thatnegative verbiage from a teacher
or other kids like, oh, hekeeps getting lost, he doesn't
know where he is, he needsreminders of what we're supposed
(16:49):
to be doing, but yet if yougive him a tool, a tracker.
It would be really helpful forlots of kids right To give them
a tracker to track down the page.
That helps remove that barrierof getting lost and could wind
up improving comprehension.
Just like a chair could beconsidered a barrier.
(17:13):
So all schools have these.
I call them the blue plasticchair.
So it's either like the blueplastic chair, the black one or
the brown one where everyonesits in the same chair.
So we do have kids that have adifficult time sitting in one
place and sitting still for along period of time.
So if we remove the barrier ofthat uncomfortable chair and we
(17:36):
give them another option ofmaybe sitting on like some kind
of flexible seating, like agymnastic ball or a mushroom
seat, or let them sit on thefloor or stand up for a little
bit, we can remove that barrierof being unfocused People as a
(17:56):
barrier and that can besensitive for some people.
But I have seen it where thebarrier to learning becomes an
adult.
That kind of hovers over thechild to keep them on track or
keep them focused or to whispersomething in their ear.
(18:17):
So sometimes an adult can be abarrier if it's a situation
where they're enabled or there'slike a learned helplessness
kind of happening.
I would rather see an adultshow a child how to use some
tools and other things thatremove that barrier altogether
(18:38):
and remove the need for thatadult to kind of hover over them
.
And then the third barrier is abarrier of your educational
environment, your space in whichyou're learning.
Like is there room for kids tomove around and be comfortable
when they're working?
I mean, I don't know about you,but it makes a difference where
(18:59):
I work and where I'mcomfortable, like I need my
stuff around with me and I needto feel comfortable in my seat
so I can be focused.
And so if it means that I workbetter sitting on the floor, sit
on the floor.
If a child works better in asmall group or by himself or
(19:24):
sitting outside.
I mean, there's all kinds ofways to remove barriers and
there's hundreds of educationaltools that professionals use I
use to explain to parents how wecan put tools and supports in
place that are all consideredthey're assistive technology
(19:48):
tools, whether it's like a hightech tool like a computer or a
laptop program or like thethings I mentioned, like a
reading ruler or a highlightertape or something like that that
matches alongside theaccommodations in the IEP.
Melissa (20:10):
We've talked about the importance of early
intervention, why it's important, why it's important at a super
young age.
Well, let's talk about the gapsover summer.
For my son in those earlyschool years he never required
any type of summer support,which was fine.
But kids can tend to backslideduring the summer and or
(20:31):
holidays.
So talk to us, talk to ourlisteners, about what support
looks like from a parent whodoesn't necessarily want to make
it feel like lesson time.
Give us some practical tipsthat parents can engage with
their children where it doesn'tactually feel like a lesson or
homework or a continuation oftheir day.
(20:52):
I mean kids can get overwhelmedin a six hour school day where
they've got multiple disciplinescoming into the classroom,
you've got OTPT speech and bythe time they get home they're
worn out.
DJ Nicholson (21:05):
They are.
So wow, you just.
I just feel like you just askedlike five questions.
I want to try to capture allthat.
First of all, I'm a hugebeliever and we've got to cool
it on the homework with littleones.
We've just got to cool it, likewhen you're in elementary
school and you've been in schoolall day long, the last thing
(21:26):
you want to do is go home and dolike another worksheet, another
math page.
Let's just keep it simple andhave kids engaged in reading,
whether they're readingthemselves or parents are
reading.
That's the most important thingto support kids in reading.
So let's do that.
(21:46):
So another way to engage kidswhether it's in the summer and
I'll add a little bit more tothat in a second but after
school is to make learning orlearning review or whatever you
want to do.
Make it fun, like have that,you know, integrate music into
(22:08):
it, play a game where they're upand moving around, like if they
have to say, like spellingwords, if you're working on a
spelling word, review that forevery letter they're hopping or
they're jumping up and down andyou turn it into some kind of a
game.
So just to make it fun anddon't feel so stuck in the.
(22:33):
You know you need to sit at thetable and do your homework.
And if you're a parent that'sreally busy and you're working
while your child is home doinghomework, or you're cooking
dinner in the kitchen whilethey're working on their
homework, just know the mostimportant thing is if they have
(22:53):
homework, you want them to dothe best they can on that
homework, not necessarily be sorestricted to.
You know you have to sit at thetable Because I tell parents
you know sometimes you're notgoing to get both you can't have
them do homework and get themto sit at the table.
So if they want to lay on thefloor, great.
They want to lay in a beanbagchair, great.
(23:13):
But the ideal scenario for meis no homework and if there's
something fun that can happeninstead.
There's endless things to do athome, whether it's, you know,
doing a scavenger hunt aroundthe house and you're looking for
(23:35):
, you know everything that youcan find.
That starts with the letter Bin five minutes.
You know just things like thatthat are fun.
It's very family focused.
The other thing that you askedabout was summer.
So in extended school year, esyis different all over the
(24:00):
nation, in every district, everycounty.
It fluctuates depending onwhere you are, but if you have a
child with an individualeducation plan, an IEP, there's
a lot of students that willqualify for extended year
services.
So whether that's learningsupports or speech or OT, those
(24:25):
services and supports areavailable during the summer as
well, and a lot of schools dohave, you know, summer
programming.
That looks different, it's alittle more fun.
I know there's some districtsdown here in Florida where it's
just like a science camp themeand it's just fun.
It's much more fun than regularschool, regular school year.
Cindy (24:45):
Yeah, as I want to just reflect on some of the things
that you said, because youdropped a lot of really great
information.
But the biggest thing that I'mrealizing and I feel like I'm
opening my eyes to, is that ourkids are people like us.
Like the same way we have thispodcast, because of the hurdles
(25:08):
in the workplace and all of theother things, they are very much
living a similar type ofstructure in that I don't want
to work late, they don't want todo homework late, like I have
this comfy chair and I have mywhole, like you said, my own
setup, and yet here we areexpecting them to be in this
(25:32):
gloomy classroom.
I mean, I know some teachersmake it fun, but I totally, like
it changed my mindset to think,like, can you imagine us doing
our work that we do in thatclassroom setting?
Like sitting next to all ofyour coworkers in this like hard
(25:52):
chair all lies on you, youcan't get up, you have to raise
your hand to go to the bathroom.
I mean, I get, there's certainthings for order, but when you
start thinking about it, as,like you know, the children are
just like us, adults that havewants and needs and, if anything
, the fact that we expect themto have more control, like more
(26:16):
self-control than like some ofus as adults it's insane, but
it's true, and a lot of what youjust said is about.
DJ Nicholson (26:25):
You know that self-control really is
self-regulation for kids.
Like, how do we support them intheir own self-regulation so
they're comfortable and they'resettled and situated?
I mean we can do that forourselves as adults.
The majority of adults that Iknow know how to self-regulate.
(26:48):
Like I can get up if I need to,I have my water right here, I
have my pencil that I like righthere.
I have my foot up on afootstool because that's how I
like to sit.
You know we're able to do thatas adults, but for kids we don't
always do that, and so that'swhy sometimes, when kids can't
(27:11):
self-regulate and there's atremendous amount of control and
you've got to sit there, youcan't go to the bathroom, you
can't get up, you can't get adrink, you can't do this, can't,
can't, can't Then a lot of thatturns into what some adults see
as well.
Kids get frustrated and they'veshut down, and then adults see
(27:34):
that as behavior and it's not.
It's not behavior, and that'ssomething that I talk to
teachers about too.
That just because you have akid that's frustrated does not
mean that now we suddenly haveto have a behavior plan now too.
Like no frustration is.
It's a kind of communication,like he doesn't have words to
(27:57):
explain how he's feeling, sohe's frustrated, he's gonna put
his head up.
He's gonna put his head down.
He's gonna, like, slink underthe desk.
I remember slinking under thedesk when I was in high school
English, because I got called onand I was super shy and I just
slid, not all the way under, butlike I was on my way because I
didn't know what to do with myfeelings, you know.
Melissa (28:22):
I see that as an adult now, like to me, sometimes I
can be overstimulated if there'stoo many people in the hallway.
I prefer a door that's shut toan office versus open where I
hear all that external kind ofnoise.
I need white noise to sleep.
I need the vacuum cleaner to.
(28:43):
We all have our little quirks.
We all have our little quirks.
So you have dropped a ton ofinformation on this podcast and
I know that someone who'slistening is gonna have a
takeaway.
Right, a diagnosis of any typeof you know, learning need,
disability is overwhelming.
(29:04):
It's overwhelming.
As you said, there are a lot ofresources.
If you could provide onetakeaway, one gem that you feel
that all parents, whether singleor a good support system,
should have in their back pocket, what would that be?
DJ Nicholson (29:18):
Find your person that is going to support you on
this journey, so you're not outon the internet, you're not
questioning whether or notyou're doing the right thing.
Find a person that you can relyon, that you can ask questions
of and that's available to youas a resource.
Cindy (29:40):
And on that note, can you tell us a little bit about
inclusivology some of the workthat you do?
As you mentioned earlier, thatperson is someone like you, and
where can people find someonelike you?
Where do they start?
Like you said, there's a lot onthe internet.
How does someone connect withyou or find someone like you in
(30:05):
their area?
DJ Nicholson (30:07):
So inclusivology the name literally means the
study of inclusion, because it'simportant to include every
child in learning.
So what I do is I either workwith parents one to one or in a
small group, depending on whatis the best fit for them.
And so, working one to one, wedo deep dives into all the
(30:30):
educational planning documents,the IEP, and we look at all the
things that are working reallywell and then we look at the
things that might need to bebeefed up a little bit and we
wanna make sure that everythingthat's in those documents
connects and matches to thebenefit of the child.
That's important.
And then, along the journeyworking with me, then parents
(30:54):
they're growing in theirvocabulary, they're learning how
to ask questions, they'refeeling more like they
understand exactly what shouldbe provided for their child, and
so then they're able to ask forsome of these supports and
services during the IEP meeting.
So the bulk of what I do withinclusivology is supporting
(31:17):
parents.
I also do some down here inFlorida.
I just do some local teachertrainings, but I also do
workshops.
At least once a month I do anonline workshop and so I have a
Facebook page calledInclusivology and I also have a
website called inclusivologycomso people can find me there, and
(31:39):
if you need someone that'slocal to your area, I work
virtually and I also worklocally, so I kind of support
the United States in this work.
If you are looking for someone,I would look for someone that
is an educational advocate or aneducational coach.
Melissa (31:58):
I want to say a big thank you, dj.
I wish that I had had a coachin place when I had questions.
I remember leaving thatdoctor's office 16 years ago,
feeling a myriad of emotions,embarrassment, confusion, fear,
(32:19):
all of those things.
So if this podcast can reachone person at the precise moment
of a diagnosis, then we've doneour job here at Let Me
Interrupt.
So what a great way to kick off.
Season two is such just greateducation.
Thank you really.
(32:39):
Thank you so much for what youdo for your community, for the
nation, and really thank you sovery much for what you do Takes
us a very special person Well.
DJ Nicholson (32:50):
I love what I do, so thank you very much Awesome.
Cindy (32:54):
Well, on that note, we want to say again thank you so
much into our listeners, asalways.
Just keep interrupting and makesure to follow and check on the
notes for any updates and thenhopefully we'll have you back
again in the future.
Dj, I really enjoyed ourconversation.
DJ Nicholson (33:16):
Yeah, we'd love that.
Melissa (33:17):
DJ all the best, thank you.
DJ Nicholson (33:19):
You're welcome, thank you.
Welcome back to another episode of Let Me Interrupt.
So, as you may have heard lastepisode, we are kicking off our
season two with really amazingguests, and today is just an
example of what is to come.
I want to hand it over toMelissa to roll out the red
carpet for our amazing gueststoday.
Melissa (00:28):
Yeah, delighted to be here with you, cindy, our
phenomenal guest DJ.
This episode is going to benear and dear to my heart, for
sure, and I'm sure we're goingto touch on that.
But to all of our listeners wewant to welcome DJ Nicholson,
who is a 28 year old veteranteacher, educational coach and
trainer with a lifelong passionfor education and ensuring that
(00:50):
children with disabilities andlearning differences are engaged
and supported in theireducational environment.
Dj superpowers include creatingunique learning options for
children, problem solving forsuccess and building empowered
learners.
She now coaches parents toadvocate for their children's
best learning through tools andstrategies for engagement,
(01:12):
accessibility and flexibility.
When she is not engaged withher career passion, she is
volunteering with a pug rescue,which I definitely want to touch
on and her pug rescue group,mentoring young teachers and
doing yoga.
So, dj Nicholson, welcome tothe podcast.
DJ Nicholson (01:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Melissa (01:30):
Oh, we're delighted to have you.
Cindy (01:32):
Yes, so let's just jump in and tell us a little bit you
know about yourself beyond thebio, and what motivated you to
focus on children withdisabilities and learning
differences.
DJ Nicholson (01:43):
So I really feel like my love for children with
disabilities and learningdifferences really started when
I was a little kid.
You know, I had a sibling thathad some different types of
disabilities, and I had someexperiences when I was in the
first grade with children on theplayground.
This was back in the midseventies and children were
(02:04):
coming out of a stateinstitution and they were coming
onto my elementary schoolcampus and they were on the
playground with us, but that wasthe only time that we ever saw
them, you know talking with withus on the playground.
We didn't see them in thelibrary or the cafeteria or any
of our classes.
And so you know, knowing thatwas in the mid seventies when I
(02:27):
fast forward through, you know,20 years of teaching and six,
seven, eight years of coachingand training, and in 2023, we're
still having some of the sameconversations about needing kids
to be included in learning,whatever that looks like, and we
can really I mean my goodnessfinally move away from these
(02:50):
exclusionary options that wehave for kids, because I truly
believe that every child can beincluded in learning.
It's up to us, as adults, tofigure out how to get in there.
Melissa (03:02):
I love that.
I said in the bio that thispodcast is kind of near and dear
to my heart, you know, andCindy, I will let you kind of
you know, share what you aremost comfortable with.
But Cindy and I have been manyconversations about the learning
abilities of our own children.
I have a son off to college andwhen he was two I didn't know,
(03:25):
I couldn't envision him readinga book and I questioned many
nights how he was going to evenlearn how to tie his shoes.
He was placed on the spectrumat a very young age.
We entered early intervention,super early, which was
fundamental right for hissuccesses.
I think that having an advocatefor your child is huge.
(03:47):
So I feel like the roles are alittle bit reversed.
You know, my son has comereally full circle.
He's doing well, he'sself-sufficient, driving
girlfriend, college, you knowall these great things.
But this podcast, I feel it'sgoing to resonate with someone
who may have some of thoseworries and those doubts.
I know Cindy and I've hadnumerous conversations, so I'm
going to kind of pause there,take a little pulse, check, see
(04:10):
if you have any thoughts aroundwhat you know, what I have to
share.
DJ Nicholson (04:14):
Well, first of all, thank you for just opening
up and sharing the success storyof your son, and I think that
that speaks volumes to parentsthat it is possible.
We have to believe that learningis possible, social growth is
(04:34):
possible and the world reallythe world is their oyster, as
they used to say.
I mean, there's just so muchpotential but we have to know
how to best support and Iapplaud you for early
intervention because that'sreally where it starts.
And so, whether your child istwo or three or however old, the
(04:59):
younger we can get systems inplace, supports and resources in
place, the better off they'regoing to be with learning and
independence and all of that.
So I think it just speaksvolumes, just that you know
you're, you're.
You were worried at two, butthen here he is, you know off to
college and you know like kindof live in his life Well, and I
(05:20):
think you know I think I don'tsee myself as a traditional
advocate because I see my roleas empowering parents, so they
have the tools to advocate fortheir child, so they are fully
immersed in everything they needto know to bring their
(05:41):
information about their child tothe IEP table.
Melissa (05:44):
The term diagnosis is scary, right, scary, whether
it's a diagnosis of cancer ordiagnosis of a spectrum disorder
for a child, not to mention ifyou're doing it as a single
parent.
For me, single mom, 100%working, nurse, working, shift
work, you know doing that hustleand you know trying to get him
(06:05):
to his early intervention,picking him up from daycare, it
was a really I mean I have tokind of celebrate, you know what
I've, what I've really beenthrough and endured, and I mean
I celebrate him.
But for single parents who arelistening, it is tough.
So it's kind of the segue intothe next question about work and
(06:26):
how to approach employers whomay not understand that you
might need additional time offfrom work and what that really
looks like.
DJ Nicholson (06:36):
So I think there's definitely going to be
times when parents need to taketime off from work, but I think
the best way to manage that timeis to have a person or a place
that you can go and get the bulkof your information.
So I've had some experienceswith parents where they are
(07:00):
overwhelmed, they're stressedand they're freaking out and
they get on the internet andthey start searching and
searching and searching and nextthing you know they're meeting
with, you know, thispsychologist and this therapist
and this person and they're justall over the place.
So that can be very timeconsuming, very overwhelming.
(07:21):
But I think that if parentshave like, if they had someone
you know, not me, but like me orme that is kind of a one stop
shop when it comes to looking atlearning possibilities and
learning options that then theycan spend that time learning
from a professional.
(07:42):
But then they have theknowledge when they go into an
IEP meeting that they are fullyequipped, that they can go in
there with confidence.
The meeting does not have to be,you know, three and four hours
I've sat in somewhere.
They're that long becauseparents are overwhelmed and they
want.
Parents want to take the timeto learn.
(08:03):
So when you're in the meetingand in those situations where
you know they're, everyone atthe table is talking about your
child and you want this positiveconnection with everyone at the
table, you want there to be apositive outcome and you want to
capture all the things thatyour child needs.
So that's not the time to belearning, learning new things.
(08:26):
You know what I mean.
Like parents need to beequipped ahead of time, but
equipped in a way where you aregetting like tried and true,
factual information and you'renot out there searching the
waters.
I mean it's, it's murky.
Melissa (08:42):
It is murky.
I heard an advocate, one, saylet's not call it disability,
let's call it capability, andthat's just just gives me
shivers to think about that.
I mean, you know you go intothese meetings and, cindy, you
know in the beginning you feelthat the focus is on really the
disability and you want yourchild, in all terms, to be
(09:06):
normal, and so you know my heartgoes out to you.
But this is why this podcast isreally really crucial, crucial.
Cindy (09:18):
And that's such a great tip because, I mean, it's such a
different way of thinking aboutit.
I mean, every time I've gone tolike a doctor or a specialist,
I go with let me let them tellme what it is.
And hearing like you know thatthat is not the time you want to
come.
You know prepared, you want tocome with what, what questions
(09:42):
you really want to get to likeeven with just simple things,
like my son had an eye infectionthe other day and we went to
the doctor and you know he wasexplaining the difference
between a bacterial and a viraland the information that we got
there, while he was alsoscreaming because he didn't want
to be sitting down or touched.
We walked away and you know myhusband had one version and I
(10:06):
had the other version and itjust didn't.
It makes sense that you'reright.
Like that may not be the mostconducive to getting everything
that you might need.
DJ Nicholson (10:17):
Well, and I like what Melissa said to about you
know, switching up the worddisability, and I agree with you
100%.
So I, if that's that isinteresting, because it can be.
It's a very sensitive word.
Some people in the disabilitycommunity like that word, some
people don't, some people areoffended.
So I go back and forth betweencapability, learning, difference
(10:40):
, disability, unique abilities,special skills, like whatever it
is, and so here's my take onthat.
Every single person on theplanet is different.
We're all different and that'sthat's part of what makes us
beautiful as as humans, as weget to be different and so it's
(11:02):
just a matter of figuring outyou know what works for
everybody, so you can.
You can call it a disability,but just because someone needs,
like, an opportunity for moremovement or needs to take a
break or needs you knowdifferent tools in the classroom
, that's not.
I mean, yes, it's a.
It's a.
It's a disability in the waythat the world kind of looks at
(11:26):
it, but it really is.
It's just a different way ofapproaching learning.
It's a different way offocusing.
We all have our little thingsthat we do.
Cindy (11:37):
Yeah, yeah, and right now that you, right before we jump
into the next question, Ithought immediately to you know,
the world changes, right, likeit changes, and the different
expectations, and even just thecountry we live in, like
education is done completelydifferent in other countries and
some work better than others,some are more hands on outside
(11:59):
and you have that movement.
But I just had a flashback toand I know Ben's grandmother is
not listening so I'll say it youknow, just when he was like six
months or like he was walking,was probably a year, and he was
running, he wanted to toucheverything, and she's like why
(12:21):
can't he just sit down?
You know, because another babythat came to visit her just sat
there, and so it was likeeveryone's different and that's
right, like we have to be opento the differences that people
have, you know, all as adultsand as children.
DJ Nicholson (12:41):
Well and knowing to that.
You know, children are childrenand one of the beautiful things
about them is an incrediblesense of curiosity and a need to
move and a need to exploretheir environment.
And so I mean, just if I canshare this little like anecdote
A couple of years ago I was Iwas an instructional coach in my
(13:03):
district down here in Floridafor many years, and a couple of
years ago I was working at aschool and I was talking to the
principal about the way that herkindergartners walked in line,
and so it was kind of the sortof a different policy that you
know we want to have, likebubble gum and bunny tails,
meaning like mouth should looklike with big bubbles in them
(13:26):
and hands go behind their backslike holding onto a little bunny
tail.
And she, she said to herkindergarten teachers like that
needs to stop.
We are not training childrenfor the military, we are just
trying to get them from theclassroom to the library.
That's all you got to do Ifwe're not trying to get make
(13:47):
every child do exactly the samething.
If they want to walk in pairsand hold hands, let them.
If they want to skip, let themhave control.
But let them like, let them,they need the time to wiggle and
move around and I can't.
(14:10):
Yeah, she now works in a lovelyprivate school.
Cindy (14:19):
And I wish, you know, I wish that a lot of educators and
a lot of places had that samemindset.
I can't say that it's not scaryto think about, I mean, with
everything else going in schools, but I think that's the side of
that.
It is also kind of like scaredto think about having to fit to
(14:40):
a norm Even now, right.
And as we think about this, Iwant to touch on some barriers,
because you know I don't want tobe a negative Nancy here, but
you know, there and as a parentyou immediately think of, like
here's all the negative thingsthat could happen that I have to
(15:00):
prepare for, right.
And so can you give us a littlebit of insight of on what
you're hearing from parents?
Is it pertains to some of thebarriers that they're seeing,
that they're maybe preanticipating, so you kind of
work with them to mitigate thatand any advice around those
(15:22):
types of barriers?
DJ Nicholson (15:23):
Okay.
So barriers are one of myfavorite things to talk about
and I always start my barrierconversation with children are
never, ever barriers.
No matter what the situation,the child is not a barrier.
So it really is up to us asadults, as parents and
professionals and educators, tofigure out the best way to
(15:44):
remove barriers so kids canreally be included in learning.
So barriers can be items andobjects in the classroom, they
can be people and they can bespaces.
So I'll give you some examplesof each of those.
So an example of an item or anobject is really.
(16:08):
I'll just say we need to addsome items or objects in.
So if we have a kiddo that'sstruggling with reading and
they're losing their place everytime they're reading a passage
in a book that maybe they needlike a reading ruler or a
reading tracker to help themkind of track down the page,
(16:29):
that is an object that we canuse, a tool that removes that
barrier of him getting lost.
So we can also eliminate thatnegative verbiage from a teacher
or other kids like, oh, hekeeps getting lost, he doesn't
know where he is, he needsreminders of what we're supposed
(16:49):
to be doing, but yet if yougive him a tool, a tracker.
It would be really helpful forlots of kids right To give them
a tracker to track down the page.
That helps remove that barrierof getting lost and could wind
up improving comprehension.
Just like a chair could beconsidered a barrier.
(17:13):
So all schools have these.
I call them the blue plasticchair.
So it's either like the blueplastic chair, the black one or
the brown one where everyonesits in the same chair.
So we do have kids that have adifficult time sitting in one
place and sitting still for along period of time.
So if we remove the barrier ofthat uncomfortable chair and we
(17:36):
give them another option ofmaybe sitting on like some kind
of flexible seating, like agymnastic ball or a mushroom
seat, or let them sit on thefloor or stand up for a little
bit, we can remove that barrierof being unfocused People as a
(17:56):
barrier and that can besensitive for some people.
But I have seen it where thebarrier to learning becomes an
adult.
That kind of hovers over thechild to keep them on track or
keep them focused or to whispersomething in their ear.
(18:17):
So sometimes an adult can be abarrier if it's a situation
where they're enabled or there'slike a learned helplessness
kind of happening.
I would rather see an adultshow a child how to use some
tools and other things thatremove that barrier altogether
(18:38):
and remove the need for thatadult to kind of hover over them
.
And then the third barrier is abarrier of your educational
environment, your space in whichyou're learning.
Like is there room for kids tomove around and be comfortable
when they're working?
I mean, I don't know about you,but it makes a difference where
(18:59):
I work and where I'mcomfortable, like I need my
stuff around with me and I needto feel comfortable in my seat
so I can be focused.
And so if it means that I workbetter sitting on the floor, sit
on the floor.
If a child works better in asmall group or by himself or
(19:24):
sitting outside.
I mean, there's all kinds ofways to remove barriers and
there's hundreds of educationaltools that professionals use I
use to explain to parents how wecan put tools and supports in
place that are all consideredthey're assistive technology
(19:48):
tools, whether it's like a hightech tool like a computer or a
laptop program or like thethings I mentioned, like a
reading ruler or a highlightertape or something like that that
matches alongside theaccommodations in the IEP.
Melissa (20:10):
We've talked about the importance of early
intervention, why it's important, why it's important at a super
young age.
Well, let's talk about the gapsover summer.
For my son in those earlyschool years he never required
any type of summer support,which was fine.
But kids can tend to backslideduring the summer and or
(20:31):
holidays.
So talk to us, talk to ourlisteners, about what support
looks like from a parent whodoesn't necessarily want to make
it feel like lesson time.
Give us some practical tipsthat parents can engage with
their children where it doesn'tactually feel like a lesson or
homework or a continuation oftheir day.
(20:52):
I mean kids can get overwhelmedin a six hour school day where
they've got multiple disciplinescoming into the classroom,
you've got OTPT speech and bythe time they get home they're
worn out.
DJ Nicholson (21:05):
They are.
So wow, you just.
I just feel like you just askedlike five questions.
I want to try to capture allthat.
First of all, I'm a hugebeliever and we've got to cool
it on the homework with littleones.
We've just got to cool it, likewhen you're in elementary
school and you've been in schoolall day long, the last thing
(21:26):
you want to do is go home and dolike another worksheet, another
math page.
Let's just keep it simple andhave kids engaged in reading,
whether they're readingthemselves or parents are
reading.
That's the most important thingto support kids in reading.
So let's do that.
(21:46):
So another way to engage kidswhether it's in the summer and
I'll add a little bit more tothat in a second but after
school is to make learning orlearning review or whatever you
want to do.
Make it fun, like have that,you know, integrate music into
(22:08):
it, play a game where they're upand moving around, like if they
have to say, like spellingwords, if you're working on a
spelling word, review that forevery letter they're hopping or
they're jumping up and down andyou turn it into some kind of a
game.
So just to make it fun anddon't feel so stuck in the.
(22:33):
You know you need to sit at thetable and do your homework.
And if you're a parent that'sreally busy and you're working
while your child is home doinghomework, or you're cooking
dinner in the kitchen whilethey're working on their
homework, just know the mostimportant thing is if they have
(22:53):
homework, you want them to dothe best they can on that
homework, not necessarily be sorestricted to.
You know you have to sit at thetable Because I tell parents
you know sometimes you're notgoing to get both you can't have
them do homework and get themto sit at the table.
So if they want to lay on thefloor, great.
They want to lay in a beanbagchair, great.
(23:13):
But the ideal scenario for meis no homework and if there's
something fun that can happeninstead.
There's endless things to do athome, whether it's, you know,
doing a scavenger hunt aroundthe house and you're looking for
(23:35):
, you know everything that youcan find.
That starts with the letter Bin five minutes.
You know just things like thatthat are fun.
It's very family focused.
The other thing that you askedabout was summer.
So in extended school year, esyis different all over the
(24:00):
nation, in every district, everycounty.
It fluctuates depending onwhere you are, but if you have a
child with an individualeducation plan, an IEP, there's
a lot of students that willqualify for extended year
services.
So whether that's learningsupports or speech or OT, those
(24:25):
services and supports areavailable during the summer as
well, and a lot of schools dohave, you know, summer
programming.
That looks different, it's alittle more fun.
I know there's some districtsdown here in Florida where it's
just like a science camp themeand it's just fun.
It's much more fun than regularschool, regular school year.
Cindy (24:45):
Yeah, as I want to just reflect on some of the things
that you said, because youdropped a lot of really great
information.
But the biggest thing that I'mrealizing and I feel like I'm
opening my eyes to, is that ourkids are people like us.
Like the same way we have thispodcast, because of the hurdles
(25:08):
in the workplace and all of theother things, they are very much
living a similar type ofstructure in that I don't want
to work late, they don't want todo homework late, like I have
this comfy chair and I have mywhole, like you said, my own
setup, and yet here we areexpecting them to be in this
(25:32):
gloomy classroom.
I mean, I know some teachersmake it fun, but I totally, like
it changed my mindset to think,like, can you imagine us doing
our work that we do in thatclassroom setting?
Like sitting next to all ofyour coworkers in this like hard
(25:52):
chair all lies on you, youcan't get up, you have to raise
your hand to go to the bathroom.
I mean, I get, there's certainthings for order, but when you
start thinking about it, as,like you know, the children are
just like us, adults that havewants and needs and, if anything
, the fact that we expect themto have more control, like more
(26:16):
self-control than like some ofus as adults it's insane, but
it's true, and a lot of what youjust said is about.
DJ Nicholson (26:25):
You know that self-control really is
self-regulation for kids.
Like, how do we support them intheir own self-regulation so
they're comfortable and they'resettled and situated?
I mean we can do that forourselves as adults.
The majority of adults that Iknow know how to self-regulate.
(26:48):
Like I can get up if I need to,I have my water right here, I
have my pencil that I like righthere.
I have my foot up on afootstool because that's how I
like to sit.
You know we're able to do thatas adults, but for kids we don't
always do that, and so that'swhy sometimes, when kids can't
(27:11):
self-regulate and there's atremendous amount of control and
you've got to sit there, youcan't go to the bathroom, you
can't get up, you can't get adrink, you can't do this, can't,
can't, can't Then a lot of thatturns into what some adults see
as well.
Kids get frustrated and they'veshut down, and then adults see
(27:34):
that as behavior and it's not.
It's not behavior, and that'ssomething that I talk to
teachers about too.
That just because you have akid that's frustrated does not
mean that now we suddenly haveto have a behavior plan now too.
Like no frustration is.
It's a kind of communication,like he doesn't have words to
(27:57):
explain how he's feeling, sohe's frustrated, he's gonna put
his head up.
He's gonna put his head down.
He's gonna, like, slink underthe desk.
I remember slinking under thedesk when I was in high school
English, because I got called onand I was super shy and I just
slid, not all the way under, butlike I was on my way because I
didn't know what to do with myfeelings, you know.
Melissa (28:22):
I see that as an adult now, like to me, sometimes I
can be overstimulated if there'stoo many people in the hallway.
I prefer a door that's shut toan office versus open where I
hear all that external kind ofnoise.
I need white noise to sleep.
I need the vacuum cleaner to.
(28:43):
We all have our little quirks.
We all have our little quirks.
So you have dropped a ton ofinformation on this podcast and
I know that someone who'slistening is gonna have a
takeaway.
Right, a diagnosis of any typeof you know, learning need,
disability is overwhelming.
(29:04):
It's overwhelming.
As you said, there are a lot ofresources.
If you could provide onetakeaway, one gem that you feel
that all parents, whether singleor a good support system,
should have in their back pocket, what would that be?
DJ Nicholson (29:18):
Find your person that is going to support you on
this journey, so you're not outon the internet, you're not
questioning whether or notyou're doing the right thing.
Find a person that you can relyon, that you can ask questions
of and that's available to youas a resource.
Cindy (29:40):
And on that note, can you tell us a little bit about
inclusivology some of the workthat you do?
As you mentioned earlier, thatperson is someone like you, and
where can people find someonelike you?
Where do they start?
Like you said, there's a lot onthe internet.
How does someone connect withyou or find someone like you in
(30:05):
their area?
DJ Nicholson (30:07):
So inclusivology the name literally means the
study of inclusion, because it'simportant to include every
child in learning.
So what I do is I either workwith parents one to one or in a
small group, depending on whatis the best fit for them.
And so, working one to one, wedo deep dives into all the
(30:30):
educational planning documents,the IEP, and we look at all the
things that are working reallywell and then we look at the
things that might need to bebeefed up a little bit and we
wanna make sure that everythingthat's in those documents
connects and matches to thebenefit of the child.
That's important.
And then, along the journeyworking with me, then parents
(30:54):
they're growing in theirvocabulary, they're learning how
to ask questions, they'refeeling more like they
understand exactly what shouldbe provided for their child, and
so then they're able to ask forsome of these supports and
services during the IEP meeting.
So the bulk of what I do withinclusivology is supporting
(31:17):
parents.
I also do some down here inFlorida.
I just do some local teachertrainings, but I also do
workshops.
At least once a month I do anonline workshop and so I have a
Facebook page calledInclusivology and I also have a
website called inclusivologycomso people can find me there, and
(31:39):
if you need someone that'slocal to your area, I work
virtually and I also worklocally, so I kind of support
the United States in this work.
If you are looking for someone,I would look for someone that
is an educational advocate or aneducational coach.
Melissa (31:58):
I want to say a big thank you, dj.
I wish that I had had a coachin place when I had questions.
I remember leaving thatdoctor's office 16 years ago,
feeling a myriad of emotions,embarrassment, confusion, fear,
(32:19):
all of those things.
So if this podcast can reachone person at the precise moment
of a diagnosis, then we've doneour job here at Let Me
Interrupt.
So what a great way to kick off.
Season two is such just greateducation.
Thank you really.
(32:39):
Thank you so much for what youdo for your community, for the
nation, and really thank you sovery much for what you do Takes
us a very special person Well.
DJ Nicholson (32:50):
I love what I do, so thank you very much Awesome.
Cindy (32:54):
Well, on that note, we want to say again thank you so
much into our listeners, asalways.
Just keep interrupting and makesure to follow and check on the
notes for any updates and thenhopefully we'll have you back
again in the future.
Dj, I really enjoyed ourconversation.
DJ Nicholson (33:16):
Yeah, we'd love that.
Melissa (33:17):
DJ all the best, thank you.
DJ Nicholson (33:19):
You're welcome, thank you.
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