April 1, 2025 • 49 mins
Have you ever been wounded by church people and wondered if you'd ever heal? You're not alone. Church hurt is one of the most painful experiences for believers because it comes from the very community meant to support us.
This raw conversation dives deep into both sides of church hurt – examining how unmet expectations, legalism, judgment, and leadership failures can create deep wounds, while also challenging listeners to look inward at their own responsibility in the healing process. We explore the crucial difference between having valid hurts from genuine leadership failures versus holding onto offenses rooted in personal preferences or unspoken expectations.
What makes this episode particularly powerful is the vulnerable sharing from both perspectives. As church leaders, we've caused unintentional hurt to others, and we've also experienced deep church hurt ourselves. This dual perspective allows us to speak with authenticity about the biblical path toward healing – separating God's perfect character from people's imperfect actions, following Matthew 18's guidelines for conflict resolution, and embracing the sometimes difficult work of forgiveness.
The most transformative insight might be learning to distinguish between someone having a "bad heart" versus having a "bad day." When we can determine whether hurt was intentional or unintentional, we gain freedom to extend grace more generously. And for those who find themselves experiencing the same problems at every church they attend, we gently challenge: "Everywhere you go, there you are."
Whether you're currently nursing wounds from church hurt or seeking to create a healthier church culture as a leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom for moving forward in faith. The path to healing isn't easy, but it's worth it – because a healed heart can experience the fullness of community God designed us for.
Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE
THE NEW LIFE COLLECTION IS HERE:
Shop Here 👉 https://letsdigthepodcast.myshopify.com/
____________________________________
STAY TUNED FOR ALL EPISODES HERE:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxNumgVDs3mAeIfVhq64qAQ?sub_confirmation=1
Use this link for all the ways to keep in touch:
http://linktr.ee/letsdigthepodcast
FOLLOW US ON INSTAGRAM:
Pierre: https://www.instagram.com/pierrearistil/
Danilee: https://www.instagram.com/danileearistil/
If this episode resonated with you please be sure to leave a comment, subscribe, like or share it. Thank you for joining as we dig!
____________________________________
Would you like to be a blessing:
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/letsdig
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's dig crew.
Thank you for joining thisconversation Today.
We are talking about healingfrom church hurt and I just want
to be clear Church hurt isactually boils down to.
You were hurt by people thatcame from a place called church.
So I just want to lay that outreal quick.
But maybe you're going throughsomething like that.
(00:22):
Maybe you clicked on this videobecause you're actually still
dealing with church hurt andyou're actually not healing from
church hurt.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Or how about this?
Maybe you go to a church andyou're finding yourself slowly
starting to drift, or you'refinding yourself slowly starting
to nitpick at the pastor,nitpick at leadership, Like
everything gets on your nervesand you don't even realize maybe
something might have hurt youright?
Church is made up of imperfectpeople and we all have
(00:50):
expectations on a church.
We have expectation that we puton pastors and on leadership
which they don't know about yourexpectations and then you get
mad and frustrated because theydidn't need it.
Or maybe someone misinterpretedGod's love when it comes to how
they judged or used theirdiscernment in a situation Like
what else?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Like things that can really trigger Anything.
Someone looks at you a certaintype of way and you feel judged
by them.
Or maybe you've been hurtalready.
You've moved on to the nextchurch and now those same things
are starting to resurface, andit's not actually the church,
it's actually wherever you are.
There you are and you'rerunning into the same problems
at the next church.
And how do you deal with that,so that you don't just know your
(01:32):
church hurt?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You think you're in the right and you think they're
in the wrong and you'refrustrated with the church and
their convictions and the thingsthat they feel led to do.
Or maybe you feel like you'renot heard, thinking that maybe
(01:54):
you think you're supposed to beheard.
You know what I mean.
I think there's a lot of layerswhere people don't realize like
they're upset with the church,they're poking at the church,
they're frustrated with thechurch and not even realizing
like maybe the church they'repoking at the church, they're
frustrated with the church andnot even realizing like maybe
the church may not be as wrongas you think they are and you're
actually hurt, thinking thatyou're right, but you're
actually wrong, I think weshould have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
We're going to have a lot of conversation about all
of these questions that we justasked, but first I got to tell
y'all Pierre asked to match metoday.
Guys, I just wanted to say thatwhat happened?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
You asked to match me today guys, I just wanted to
say that what happened?
You asked to match me today.
Oh yeah, we are matching rightnow.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I did Pierre, we are not a matching couple, but today
, guys, he asked to match me.
He was like what, if we bothwear hoodies today?
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, yo, if you guys don't know, this hoodie, this
is our new life hoodie.
It's 2 Corinthians, chapter 5,verses 17.
Anyone who belongs to Christ isa new person.
The old life is gone, the newlife has begun.
You should see the back.
We're going to put the link.
We'll make it available foreverybody.
It's 50 bucks.
It's a great hoodie.
It's oversized, it'sheavyweight.
(02:56):
We love wearing this, everybodythat ever buys, it is always
like yo thank you for thishoodie.
It doesn't wear out, it's asolid black.
You're going to love it.
And it's a great way to shareyour story, especially if you
just got saved and you want totestify more, you want to tell
people about your life of Christ.
This hoodie is 100% aconversational starter.
So go get a hoodie, get it forsomebody man.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
All right, but if you are here joining us and you're
new, thank you for joining thisconversation Don't forget to hit
subscribe so that you see ourvideos Every time we post.
Hit that heart button and giveus some appreciation.
We always love when our let'sdig crew team hit that heart
button.
It just lets us know that weare talking about the
conversations you want to hear.
(03:35):
We're bringing value to yourlife and that's always our goal,
and our goal is to help yougrow a deeper relationship with
God, others and yourself.
So if y'all are ready and youcommented, you subscribed, you
shared it and you gave us someheart love.
I think that's everything.
That's everything, man, ifyou've done all of that, let's
dig.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's funny.
This conversation isinteresting because I'll be
honest with you.
For me, growing up in church,my whole entire life I've dealt
with church hurt and there weretimes where I could have sworn.
I knew like the way I thoughtit, the way I saw it, the way I
felt it was the right way ofseeing it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I think that's very valid, like I want to.
I want to take that like secondto really dwell on that thought,
because, you're right, a lot ofchurch hurt is really, really
rooted in, I'm right, and theydid me wrong and I don't think
that that's talked about enoughin this situation and in these
circumstances of like, theentitlement of like no, they did
(04:38):
me wrong, they might have, butlike, where in the church is
your voice?
Where are you just a member ofthe church?
Are you hurt because thepastors aren't doing what you
want them to do, like?
I think that that's a veryvalid point to like for people
to internalize and really lookat themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, I think to defend people who's been church
hurt cause I've been church hurtbefore I think finding the line
of calling this place your homebut not getting a say so really
can cause hurt.
Because think about it, for me,as a church leader, I'm a part
of leadership and when peoplejoin our family, they join our
(05:21):
fellowship, they join our home.
You know, especially in thelast 10 years, this new phrase
has been a big thing in churcheswelcome home.
So well, if you're calling thishome at my home, I got to say
so At my home.
If I have a concern about thelighting or concern about the
temperature, or concern aboutthe food that we're serving the
kids, or we're concerned aboutcertain different things, or the
(05:43):
detergent, soap and the candles.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's making me break out.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know what I mean.
And how dark should it be inthe daytime, or how dark should
it be at night, or trying toread, or when should it be quiet
?
So I have all that say so athome.
But church, as we say, welcomehome, which I understand, that
verbiage, it's just somethingthat just really got really big
in the last couple of years andI think churches mean well
because they want people to feelat home.
But I think sometimes we forgetthat people have say-sos at
(06:11):
home.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
That's very true.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And so people come thinking like this is my home,
these are my family, these aremy brothers and my sisters.
So in their mind, they havetaken their practices that they
implement at home andimplemented at home, aka their
church, which I think we all doit.
So we just think, wow, this ismy home.
(06:33):
I take my shoes off at home.
So when you go to church, youtake your shoes off.
Don't be taking your shoes offat church.
Well, it's my home.
So that's what I'm saying.
So I think what happens ispeople with their culture,
backgrounds and how, with theirupbringing, whatever they do at
home, they come to a church.
It becomes their home and theycome in with all their
expectations.
Or we come in with our mindsetand here's how we do things, and
(06:54):
we just think everyone's goingto listen, everyone's going to
like it because it's home, andwe get upset because all of our
ideas that we're passionateabout someone's not listening,
or they heard it, but we're notgoing to do it.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I think that's been a very different experience for
me now, stepping more intoleadership of like hearing
people's concerns, thoughts,cares, all those things, but
knowing that there is a visionand there is a head of our
church.
It is not us, it's not our ownchurch.
So we are the culture keepers,though we are the ones saying
(07:30):
like hey, this is what ourpastor has called for our church
to do and this is where we'regoing.
But we are also the people thathear from all the other people
in the church of all their caresand concerns.
And it's being in theleadership of like hey, I hear
you, but like that's not wherewe're going right now.
And navigating that is reallychallenging, but it's validating
(07:52):
.
Like hey, I do hear you, it's agreat idea, it's not unbiblical
, but this is not where we'regoing right now.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, that's so true because, like, some people come
to a church and they have theirconvictions, yes, and you get
offended if your pastor doesn'tshare your conviction, right,
and then you feel like, okay, IDM'd my pastor or I told my, or
I tried to, or they preached acertain thing, and it's like
wait, for example, let's talkabout alcohol.
Right, there are some peoplethat get offended if they find
(08:21):
out that their pastor has aglass of wine with their dinner
because of their personalconviction.
Maybe they used to deal withalcoholism, maybe they used to
deal with that like alcoholabuse, so they've made a
decision to cut it out theirlife and so they may go to a
church leader ask questionsabout it.
Hey, I heard that pastor doesthis, or I heard that, and that
church leader, with a pure heart, tries to protect the pastor,
(08:45):
which some people might thinkit's cultish.
Some people might think, well,they're loyalties to this man,
they're covering up for him.
Well, no, first of all, don'ttry to just assume they're
trying to cover up.
The goal is we want to protectthe house and so, on the
pastor's defense, we want tocover him, like you know what
I'm saying.
And so I think some people theyget they, they, they trauma
(09:05):
bond, like where they wentthrough something, and they get
upset if they can't find someoneinside a church to relate with
their trauma, like you know,what I'm saying and then so we
feel hurt or we feel like one.
I remember one lady left thechurch because she tried to
voice herself to one of her teamleaders and her team leaders
didn't side with like herconcern.
But her concern wasn't sin,right, no one was in sin.
(09:28):
There was no immoral behavior.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
There was, like it was just a preference, yes, and
I think people get so caught upin their preferences and they
take it on thinking that, no,this is Bible.
No, that's what you prefer.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Right, which is okay Totally fine.
And if you want to find achurch that does have that, that
is totally fine.
But if you are planted in achurch that may not have that
same preference, then you haveto either accept that that's
where God's planted you, ormaybe he's calling you to
something different.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that's so big.
Calling you to somethingdifferent, yeah, that's so big.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I do think leadership um failure from leaders to meet
unspoken expectations is one ofthe biggest things that causes
church hurt.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
A hundred percent.
Somebody, somebody puts anexpectation on a leader.
Leader don't even know about it, right?
And you keep getting mad at theleader cause they're not
meeting your expectation.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, that's actually more of my experience of church
or is that Like I'm a personthat loves, like birthdays, and
like there are things in my lifethat happen that are really big
deals.
And I can remember in like my20s, that kind of age group
where I was like man, theydidn't even say happy birthday
(10:42):
to me or they didn't even knowthat I did this.
And this is a big deal.
And I, now that I've fastforward 15, 20 years and I'm
like in that leadership role andI realized my expectations on
my leaders were way too high,because, as you're leading a
church of a few hundred people,there is no way for them to know
what was happening in my life.
(11:03):
That was very important to me,like I I shouldn't have put
those expectations on it,because now that I'm in a
leadership role and I have fivepeople that I could name right
now that are heavy on my heartevery single day, multiple times
a day, because of what they'rewalking through, and then those
five people will change andthree of the five will roll over
(11:24):
to next week, but then I'llhave two new things that are
heavy on my heart.
So all of those things like theweight of leadership in church
and what they carry.
It's impossible for me toremember everybody's birthday
like something like that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Like I had this thought that when it comes to
church hurt, that some people'schurch hurt is valid.
When it comes to leadershipfailures, yeah, because there's
there's two sides.
There's one side is people haveexpectation on leaders that
they never voice.
There might be preferences, andwhen those leaders don't meet
those, you get hurt, right, andyou want to leave it.
(11:58):
It gets in your heart and youdon't even realize it, right.
You start nitpicking at everylittle thing, everything.
Like I'm saying why does hepreach from the NIV?
Like what, did you not hearthat at NIV back in 1995, there
was, like bro, what is youtalking about?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So true, Like it gets under your skin every single
thing.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But here is a church hurt from leadership failure.
that is valid, Like when leadersabuse their power when leaders
use manipulation right whenleaders are hypocrites in their
leadership and it deeply woundspeople.
For example, leaders who forcewhat they say but not as they do
(12:38):
.
That causes people to becomehurt Absolutely, because it's
like hey, I'm trying to followyour lead, you're saying one
thing but doing something elsethat hurt.
It is valid.
Yeah, for sure.
Here's another one.
This is the big one when itcomes to leadership failures.
It's moral.
Failures in leadership canreally shake people's trust and
leave them feeling betrayed.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, I've questioned my placement in the global
church, like big church, whenthere were leaders that I looked
up to that had moral failuresand they did not own it and
understand that yo, you'rehurting people.
It's actually really crazy howmuch something like that affects
(13:18):
other believers in the body.
It's crazy that a mega churchpastor in Nework that we've
never met in our entire livesyeah but when they fell it
actually really did affect usyeah man.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
We never met him, never like, we just looked at
him from afar, appreciated himand valued him.
And you know he's, you knowhe's come back to the lord and
he's owned his mistake and hisfailure and he realized he not
only just felt his wife and hischildren, but he felt everyone
that he was leading.
And to me that's big, becauseI'm like yo when a leader fails
like that, morally speaking,like the hurt that it causes, it
(13:51):
causes people to leave thechurch and so people think
church.
So I want people to know thatthis conversation, not just
belittling church, hurt.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
No, not at all.
Some are very valid.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Like you're hurt because you want to, you know,
switch from chairs to pews.
And it's like, bro, relax, likeI'm not saying that.
I'm saying you could be hurtbecause a leader that you had
high expectations for, andespecially if they're biblical
expectations, absolutely.
Paul talks about it.
He tells this to Timothy, right, he says, like you know, in
Titus, he tells him, like yo, ifyou want to be a church leader,
(14:22):
you must be faithful to yourwife.
Yes, your children, like yourchildren, should respect you.
Yeah, your neighbors you shouldhave a good reputation with
them.
Right, right, you should not beheavy on the alcohol.
Right, you should be able tomanage your money well.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
These are biblical standards, yeah, and so when a
leader doesn't meet theseexpectations, it's not people's
expectation, it's biblicalexpectation.
People get hurt, especiallywhen a leader doesn't own it and
say you know what I messed up.
I failed in this category.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So true so.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I do think that's another one.
Another thing that causeschurch hurt is is judgment and
like legalism.
Legalism is a big thing when itcomes to church hurt.
This hurts people like this oneright here.
Okay, so some churches leanmore towards rules than grace.
Yes, so making people feelcondemned instead of loved.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I had a deep conversation with a young lady a
few weeks ago maybe about amonth or two ago and it was
literally us just digging intothe difference between
condemnation and conviction.
Right, because those are verydifferent.
Conviction draws you to theHoly Spirit.
Conviction makes you want toget closer to the Lord.
(15:36):
Conviction works on your heartand makes you draw closer.
Condemnation makes you run andmakes you think that you're
never going to be good enough,and you're never going to be
good enough and you're neverliving up to a standard that is
not there.
Like conviction or condemnationpushes you away because you
think you'll never be able to begood enough and like.
So what you're saying of thatlegalism when it's in a church
(16:00):
and it and it's not grace.
But then, on the flip side,there are churches that are so
about grace that you never see achange in anybody's life.
That's also a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That's a problem too as well.
It's funny too, as you'retalking about condemnation and
conviction.
Condemnation makes you feelshame.
Yes, conviction makes you feelremorse.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Like what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
One makes you remember who you were, yeah, and
the other one makes youremember who you're becoming,
yeah.
Like you know what?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I'm saying it's so true.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And so I do think legalism does hurt people, like
where people feel like man,they'll never amount to what God
has called them to be becausethey're not waking up at 4 am to
pray and intercede and travailfor four hours Right, that's
legalism.
That's legalism.
People dumping leaders,churches, people dumping on
(16:51):
people like their practice.
I had one guy who almost leftthe church because there were
guys that were discipling himand he said man, they always
make me feel like I'm not closeenough to God.
That's what the guy said to me.
He said coming to church was sohard because these guys were
making me feel like I'm just notthere yet.
That's not healthy.
Because, he said, like theymade me feel bad for sleeping in
.
I was like man.
(17:11):
Rest is a gift, yes, From God,Absolutely.
You know, how many times in theBible Jesus was caught sleeping?
Yes, he's sleeping on a boat Ina storm, and the Bible said he
had a cushion.
Jesus, that man had a pillow Inthe middle of a storm.
You're on the bottom Pillows,before pillows were created.
(17:32):
Jesus, where'd you find thepillow?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You know you needed a pillow because you know it
could mess up your spine, Likeif your head is not set up right
.
The chiropractor in Jesus waslike nah, I can't be out of
alignment.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
But he could heal himself too right.
So judgmental attitudes towardsstruggles.
So judgmental attitudes towardsstruggles, lifestyle choices or
past mistakes can push peopleaway, causing them to be hurt.
And I think sometimes and we'velearned this from Pastor too,
like you know, there are someleaders that it was
(17:58):
unintentional.
Yes, they were just doing whatthey thought was best Right, and
they unintentionally hurtpeople.
I've unintentionally hurtpeople.
I've unintentionally hurtpeople.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I've unintentionally hurt people.
Remember that person who saidthat I was very fake because I
told them I liked their hair adifferent way than they normally
wear it?
Like I complimented, I'm acomplimenter.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I naturally am like I tell people all the time like
I'm a hype girl, I'm going tohype you up and it's genuine
right.
Like I mean, I'm not gonna hypeyou up for nothing, but I'm
gonna hype you up for youroutfit, your face, your makeup,
all the things.
And I just genuinelycomplimented this lady.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I loveyour hair like this.
I've never seen it.
It's so beautiful.
She thought that I was beinglike, was hurt by me
(18:41):
complimenting her, but it was.
It wasn't that, but it was.
That was trauma inside of herthat it touched a wound.
My good intentions, Iunintentionally hurt her as a
leader.
But I think what we've reallytalked about in the last few
weeks, when it comes to hurtingpeople whether it is your and it
(19:01):
wasn't so much in regards to us, but other people of like their
tone it is your and it wasn'tso much in regards to us, but
other people of like their tone,their approach, uh, cause we
work, not that we get it perfect, but we work very, very, very
hard in our uh conversations,our approaches, our tone of
voice, um, whether it's a voicememo, whether it's a, does that
need to be a phone call?
Ooh, does that one need to bein person?
Like we talk about this stuff alot when we are talking to
(19:24):
people at our church, but we hadsaid in regards to other people
of like, do they have a badheart or they did they have a
bad day?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Like, did their approach in that conversation?
It hurt someone right, but wasthat their heart to hurt them?
Yeah, no, it probably wasn'ttheir heart to hurt them.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And that's what, and that's what pastor always talks
about, like being, you know,looking at somebody and saying
like, hey, do we charge this totheir heart or do we charge this
to their head?
Cause there's sometimes peopleare people and I'm telling you,
like we've been church hurt andif you listen to this and you've
been church hurt, you have toreally process the person that
hurt you.
What they did to you, was itfrom their heart or was it from
(20:08):
their head?
Yeah, because there's adifference.
God looks at the heart.
So, if their intentions werewell and their heart was in the
right place.
Maybe their head was in thewrong place.
The head right.
That's your soul, that's yourmind.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
That might've been ways that you're programmed.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That might've just been your childhood, your
childhood how you were raised,how you were raised, your
cultural background, like whereyou come from, your
demographically speaking, likemy nationality, like we approach
things differently from howy'all approach things, for sure.
And so don't charge it to myheart, charge it to my head.
There are some times it issomebody's heart Like I know.
We're talking about thisearlier, about Jesus had someone
like Peter that was next to himand he had someone like Judas
(20:47):
that was next to him, right,judas, it was his heart.
It was his heart.
He allowed bitterness,unforgiveness, all these
negative things to root deepdown into his heart, which his
behavior caused him to betraythe family, betray Jesus, peter,
his head just, he just wasn'tthinking.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah.
He had a bad day.
Judas had a bad heart.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's what I'm saying.
So I've had people that getthat got hurt from me and they
just walked out or left andthings like that, not realizing
yo.
That wasn't my intention andI'm so sorry, charge it to my
head, I wasn't thinking or I hada bad day or I wasn't
processing it properly.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
But that brings up an important part of as a believer
that is my responsibility, thatif I'm hurt by someone.
The Bible tells us, if you arehurt by someone, you go to them
one-on-one and you share thatwith them.
That is how we strive for unity.
If we don't tell our leaders,hey, you hurt me and I want to
understand, or can I explain toyou how that came off hurtful to
(21:49):
me.
Can I share with you my heartor your like, can I?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
hear from you differently.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That's your responsibility, it is Bible.
It is not a preference.
It is because what you do, whenyou leave, when you get hurt
and you don't talk to thatperson and you walk out the door
, what you do is you cause hurtin that body and you leave it
wounded and it can never healuntil you go back and you say
(22:14):
hey, this is where this happened, this is what happened, this is
how I felt.
And then, when those two peoplecan stand there and say you
know what I?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
hear you.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
That was not my intention.
I am sorry and I will try to dobetter next time.
Then that wound can starthealing Now if you still need to
move on to the next body ofChrist.
Go for it, but at least youworked for that unity, because
that's what we're called to doas a body of Christ is to be in
unity.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's it.
It's funny because there'speople that we're discipling
right now that has called us inthe last month that someone in
the church hurt them.
Yeah, and I remember one ladyshe called me and I was walking
her through it.
She's like what should I do?
I said call that person andwork it out.
It's Bible.
And they were like, really Likeyou guys shouldn't get involved
.
I said, sis, you're jumping tostep three, right.
(23:04):
And I said here's what theBible says.
Jesus said it when somebody doessomething, they hurt you, they,
they, they've harmed you.
It says go to that person inprivate.
This is literally discipleship,this is biblical foundation.
And I remember like she waslike, oh my gosh, she's like
we've never been taught thatbefore and I was like I'm going
to teach it to you right now.
Here's what the Bible says yougo to that person and says I'm
(23:25):
going to give you words, I'mgoing to give you language.
But I said, before you do it,though, speck in their eye.
He said get that big old woodchip out of your eye.
So he's telling them to checkone another.
Just before you do it, checkyourself.
So this is what I want toencourage everybody that's
listening on your point, whatyou're saying.
We need to look at our heartfirst, because that's what God
(23:47):
looks at.
Like, get your head out the wayon both sides.
Like, the leader needs to learnhow to like.
Yo, please forgive me, that wasnot my heart, my head, I just
wasn't thinking, I wasn'tprocessing.
That's how I've done it beforeLike and then the other person
needs to be ready to receivethat forgiveness and give
forgiveness, practiceforgiveness.
But look at their heart and weneed to go to each other.
And the Bible says Jesus saidand then, if you, if they don't
(24:15):
accept it, bring in a thirdparty, bring in a witness, bring
in someone else.
And then still, jesus said ifthey still don't accept it, now
go to the church, bring it tothe church.
Bring it to the leaders, bringit to the pastors and say, look,
we're trying to work this thingout and I admire people who
don't run.
Anyone who runs I do not wantto be in relationship with.
I want someone that wants tofight, for this Wants to fight.
Oh, you hurt me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You didn't tell me I didn't know, and that's why
anything you don't tell me.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And that's why Jesus had to forgive those who
crucified him.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
He said father, forgive them, for they know not
what they do.
I'd in even in thatgeneralization of the situation
you're talking about.
I had to encourage someone andI said the hardest thing that we
are called to do as Christiansis to forgive people that will
never ask for forgiveness.
It's required of us, it is acommandment to forgive, and I'm
(25:06):
going to encourage anyone who'slistening right now.
If you have hurt from a leader,maybe you didn't go to them,
maybe you didn't get theopportunity, maybe that
opportunity has passed and youcan't go back and talk about it.
If it's there, please let thisbe an encouragement to you to
say go back to that leader andtalk with them in soft tones, in
calm words, with the love ofJesus in your heart, in standing
(25:29):
biblically in the Bible andsaying hey, this is my job, to
come to you and say that I washurt.
We talk, can we resolve, butbeyond that, if that is not an
option, if that is not possiblefor you to do that, the hardest
job that you have it is acommandment and that is to
forgive them.
Yeah, and if you need a littlebit of inspiration, all you have
(25:50):
to do is think about the fatherthat forgives you, and not just
when you said, lord, forgive mysins, come into my life and
change my life, but he forgivesyou.
And not just when you said,lord, forgive my sins, come into
my life and change my life, buthe forgives you.
Daily, daily, daily, daily.
We get that forgiveness fromthe Lord, daily.
We have grace daily.
We wake up every single day andwe have new forgiveness and new
mercies every morning.
(26:12):
And so that gives me theinspiration to be like who am I
to not forgive?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
a leader.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Who am I to say, oh wait, I get forgiveness every
day, but for you, I'm going tohold onto that one.
I don't want the Lord to holdanything against me that I
didn't do unknowingly.
So, please, I'm going to do thehard work, I'm going to let it
go, and I'm going to let it goand I'm going to forgive.
Oh yeah, even if I never get anapology, even if I never get
(26:38):
the acknowledgement, even thatthey did hurt Well.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Jesus even taught to the measure of what you forgive
will be how you're forgiven,right.
That's why he even taught them.
When you're like, when you'repraying, say forgive us as we
forgive.
That's right, as we forgive aswe forgive.
So maybe you're listening tothis and we didn't mention
anything that you're like well,I didn't get hurt by that.
Look, there's a bunch of thingsthat people get hurt by Right
At church.
You know there's, there's,there's leadership, failure
Right From leadership, there'sjudgment.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Right, there's legalism we talked about
betrayal could be one.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Gossip is a big one For sure.
People were talking about andyou're just going to run, you're
not going to face it, you'renot going to help them.
You're not going to help themget the speck out of their eye,
because that's not biblical.
When people run from that, runfrom the fellowship, broken
friendships being overlooked,that can leave you with wounds.
Maybe this one lack of supportin hard times.
(27:28):
You went through a hard time.
Maybe nobody actually knewabout it and you expect people
to just know about it.
So you get hurt because you'relike it's true you was.
I was in the hospital, I got inthe car, but I'm like you
didn't know you didn't tellnobody, very true.
And then, and then here's thisone people ask you what do you
need?
And you said no, I'm fine, it's.
Do you need anything from us?
no, we're good we're good andyou got hurt that nobody came.
(27:51):
That's one right there.
You gotta own that.
Got to accept that one burnoutis another one yeah burnout
because you don't learn how tospeak up yeah because I get it,
maybe some leaders might haveabused your kindness, your gift
of serving, yeah, but at the endof the day, we got to stand up
to our leaders.
We got to stand up to ourselves.
We have to give ourselves rest,right.
You might have been exploited,you might have been used.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I that used, I that right there was that one.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's how I got church hurt.
I got church hurt because I wasexploited Like I was feeling
used for my talents and myresources, without genuine
relationships.
That, right there, left mefeeling undervalued.
That was so.
Everyone has one thing thatcaused it.
I chose to forgive.
(28:38):
I reached out to those leadersin the past and said man, I'm
just grateful, thank you, and ifI've ever done anything to hurt
you, please forgive me.
Unmet expectations we talkedabout that one.
That one's a big one why peopleget hurt, and I just want to
encourage everyone to like faceyour church hurt.
Yes, you, your church hurt.
Yes, you have to get healingfrom it.
Like church hurt is real, butit doesn't have to define like
(28:59):
someone's faith.
It doesn't have to define it.
Here's a thought right herewhen it comes to being healed
from it, separate God'scharacter from people's failures
100%.
You want to overcome church hurt.
Separate God's character frompeople's failures.
Don't be mad at God, okay.
Be frustrated with his people,yep.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Wherever people are, there is sin.
Wherever I am, there is sin.
Wherever you are, I'm a person.
We are people, imperfect people.
We are striving for perfect, weare striving for spiritually
led people, but there is sin,there is fault.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Exactly.
Another one is really look fora healthy church.
So if, if, if you are part ofan unhealthy church and you know
it's unhealthy, right Cause Idon't want this conversation to
allude to that Every church ishealthy.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
There are many, many healthy churches.
There are many, many unhealthychurches, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, there are many.
Yeah, yeah, they're all outthere, yeah.
So really look for healthychurches.
How do you do that, though?
Go through the biblicalstandards of what embodies a
church, like what you'll find ina church to determine.
You don't determine what shouldbe a healthy church.
The Bible tells you what youshould find right.
So I'll say, like, really finda healthy church, but also know
(30:15):
that if you're not healthy andyou uproot yourself because of
church hurt, you didn't face it.
You went to another church thatwas healthy and you hid what
you went through and you jumpedin that church trying to act
like you're all good.
When there are problems at thatchurch, you brought them,
(30:35):
because everywhere you go there,you are If the same problem
finds you at the next churchit's you, that's just a cycle of
unhealthy.
It's like man everywhere I go, Iget the same problem.
Yeah, because everywhere you goyou're there, there you are.
It's you, it's you, it's you,it's on your shoes, it's on your
(30:56):
shoes, it's in your face, orit's on your tongue, it's on
your lips.
I'm sorry man, I'm feeling thisone today Also, this one right
here, to overcome betrayal andchurch hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Remember that Jesus was betrayed and that Jesus was
hurt.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, he was and who hurt him?
Religious people.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Religious people yeah .
So Christ understands he suredoes, and he still forgave them.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So don't act like nobody understands the hurt.
Don't act like no oneunderstands betrayal.
Don't act like no oneunderstands being misunderstood.
If anyone does, it is christ.
Yeah, like it's.
So acknowledge the hurt.
I got a list here.
So acknowledge the hurt.
Separate god from the peopleright.
Seek healing, not bitterness.
(31:45):
Another one is find a safespace to process some of us.
We find miserable comfort.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
They're like miserable comforting friends I
was like I'm struggling reallyso paul's.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So so job his friends when he went through a hard
time and lost everything.
There was a point in time wherehis friends were miserable
comforts misery loves company sofind safe spaces to process but
what does that look like?
Because it's not someone who'sin your same church.
Talk to a mentor.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It's not someone that's going through the same
thing as you.
It's not the people in yoursmall group that you are being
hurt by.
It's not those people.
It's not your people in yourchurch, because then you're just
gossiping, yeah, like it isliterally people outside of that
circle of where you're gettinghurt.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Outside of that situation, that circle of where
you're getting hurt, outside ofthat situation, or leadership,
yeah with, with the outside ofyou, yeah, always, like all your
negativity always needs to goup to leadership, like it
shouldn't be negativity.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is that what you said ?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
yeah, all negativity right, so it needs to go up to
leadership right, like itshouldn't go to anyone that
can't help you right, anyonethat can't help you.
Rise above this right.
So find, find mentors, findcounselors, trusted friends like
that that can actually help youwalk through it.
Another thought is avoidventing in unhealthy ways, like
on social media yes subliminalmessages to your pastors.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I hate when they crap like that like the sharing on
the, on the stories of likeresentful, like you're trying to
poke at somebody but, it's likepassive, aggressive, like,
please don't please don't dothat, bro.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It's, it's real, it's , it's real, it's real.
It's real, like church is real,and I think also I'm going to
say this too as well Just agreeto disagree, not in a passive,
aggressive way, no Meaning.
Like you guys, you willdisagree with certain
preferences and certainbehaviors.
(33:35):
That's not the Bible, doesn'tspecify it.
Or it's not, it doesn't goagainst biblical standards.
Right?
Just just agree that you guysdon't agree on it and that's
okay.
Every church you go to, you'regoing to find that you need to
determine what is your standardsand your non-negotiables.
Literally, everything cannot benon-negotiable.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's very true.
There are people that like,everything is hardcore and
you're like, no, that's justpreference.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You mean like everything's non-negotiable.
It's not true, but it's it'slike yo peanut m&ms or milk m&ms
milk and was non-negotiable ew,who calls them milk.
That's what they are.
They're milk m&ms, no chocolateplease, the chocolate is
important yeah you can't justcall who calls them milk m&ms.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Hey, which kind of m&ms are your favorite milk?
No, there, no, there's no milk.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
M&Ms Relax.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Milk chocolate.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Agree to disagree.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Okay, see what.
I mean no, it's non-negotiable.
Non-negotiable Milk chocolatebut it's so true, like how we
have to literally, like ouremotions get wound up,
especially when it's somethingyou're so passionate about and
you feel so strongly that Godhas put this burden on your
heart.
For this thing, you're ready tofight anybody, argue anything
(34:51):
for, however long it takes, andyou actually run people over
when you do that.
But if you would just take astep back, take a breath, slow
down and realize that God hasactually called you to this and
to this standard for your lifebut, he may not have called that
to the next person you'refighting with.
So, instead of fighting withinthe body, calling like causing
(35:17):
uh, disagreements, causing hurt,causing strife about you, just
take a step back, take a breathand actually ask the Holy spirit
to work on them and to work onyou, cause that's the key point
you can't just pray for the HolySpirit to work on that person,
work on that person, changetheir heart, open their eyes,
show them what they should do,but you're not asking the same
(35:38):
thing of the Holy Spirit foryourself.
That's not okay.
Like we need to ask that wehave a Holy Spirit working in us
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, man, that's big One of.
I want to talk real quick to.
I want to talk real quick toman.
These sirens are loud right nowin this city.
You guys know we live in a city, right?
Yo, if you guys are liking thisconversation, make sure you hit
like, make sure you send thisto somebody, subscribe.
But I want to share, I want toshare this.
This is to everyone.
That is a leader and we arecalled to live above reproach.
(36:06):
That's Bible, it's not apreference.
You see what I mean?
It's not a preference, it's nota thought, it's not a cool idea
.
It's Bible.
Those who are called to liveabove reproach.
Right, I had this pastor that Iworked for for several years.
It was actually a pivotalmoment.
It was a church that reallychanged everything about how I
lead.
It's probably the oneorganization that I learned
(36:28):
everything from when it comes to, like my leadership skills,
that that made me the leaderthat I am today.
Totally, um, it wasn't like thefoundational stuff, because
there was another church that Iworked for, like our home church
.
That one, I learned a lot offoundation, but there was
something that happened.
There was a misunderstanding.
I got a message from from himand he kind of just went off
just these are the things likewe, this where we fell, this,
(36:48):
this didn't work, this and he'slike sunday's now I'm gonna have
to come in and rescue it, savethe day.
It was just this bad and like,disappointed, frustrated.
We got to step it up yourleader was.
Your pastor was like, yeah, likehe was saying this to me and,
like my associate, at the timewe were working and, like I
remember, like broke down,breaking down, and I because,
first of all, he didn't give usno space to even like, like,
like, like, like, to speak intoit, and then we just accepted
(37:10):
yes, sir, won't happen again.
Well, the next day he he gotthe full story from someone else
, our executive, and it was like, it was like a aha moment for
him.
But this is not the point ofstory.
The point of story is later onthat day, at church, he pulled
me and my associate aside, heput his hands around us, tears
(37:31):
in his eyes, and he said guysthere, comes a time when a man
has to know when he's right andwhen he's wrong.
And he said I didn't have allthe information yesterday and I
was wrong.
He said I went off on you guysand it was.
It was after service.
We were in the like, like we'rein the lobbies and tears in the
eyes and he was like I'm sorryand I'm looking at him, his eyes
(37:54):
, and I was like it, like it waslike and and I'm looking at him
like man, like someone at thatlevel doesn't really have to do
this.
Yeah, but as a leader, the wayup is down yeah and he said will
you guys forgive me?
and I looked at him, I said hisname, I said man.
I said you will always be topin my book forever because of
what you just did right now.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I said you didn't have to do this.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I said you will always be top in my book because
of what you did Like.
I said, yes, of course, forgiveyou, Because I remember getting
so upset.
But, the crazy thing is what hedoesn't know is I already
forgave him.
And what I'm saying is thestory is twofold.
It's to leaders to learn how tohumble yourselves.
(38:32):
It's Jesus right, he tooklashes, he took hits that wasn't
his to take and he did that asa leader.
He humbled himself.
So, as a leader, I'm learningmore and more to like humble
myself and say hey guys, that'son me, I'm not my bad, I'm sorry
.
Who doesn't respect that?
yeah, but the second full is theperson who got offended yeah
(38:54):
refused to hold on to it and Iactually forgave him before he
even asked for it that's crazyand I think people who are
leaders need to learn how to askfor forgiveness 100 own it and
those who got offended learn tostop being offendable.
Like, or or don't be offended.
Stop being offended, yeah, likeit's, it's, that's.
That's.
The stronger you are, thestronger I am.
(39:15):
If you come and push me on myshoulders, right, because I stay
strong, that won't hurt me.
Yeah, people are getting churchhurt because they're weak,
they're not in in the word andthey do not take on the full
armor of God.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And it doesn't give all of this, like it doesn't
give the leaders the right tohurt them, like it's not
excusing everything that leadersdo right, because leaders mess
up.
Leaders are people and they'rehuman and they do make mistakes.
But as the person that'sfollowing like, it's my
responsibility to make sure Igive forgiveness.
(39:51):
It's my responsibility to makesure I don't even give the
tiniest place for the devil totake root in my heart and create
bitterness and resentment andhate towards my leaders.
So it is.
It is both it's both sided ofthe leader has to do the
responsibility of asking forforgiveness, of being humble,
(40:11):
and it's the following person tosay you know what?
You don't even have to ask forit, I forgive you already.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Exactly so, whether whether you are offending people
and you're hurting people andyou don't know it, or whether
you've been hurt.
How do you overcome this?
How do you protect this and howdo you prevent this?
It's, ultimately, it's puttingon the full armor of God.
How do I keep myself fromgetting hurt when I have the
helmet of salvation?
It don't matter what you do totry to get in my head.
(40:39):
I meditate on God's word and hisword and his truth daily.
You talked about the enemytries to come at us and try to
shoot things at us.
The Bible says to put on thebreastplate of righteousness the
shield of faith, so that whenthe enemy comes to come and
shoot at you, those fiery darts,bitterness, unforgiveness,
shield of faith, breastplate ofrighteousness.
(41:02):
Right, and for leaders that areout there and you're hurting
people, you don't even realizeit.
You need to make sure that youhave on peace as your shoes.
We walk into a room and work tomake peace.
Jesus said blessed are thosethat work for peace or blessed
is the peacemaker.
So my job, so my job as aleader, is to always make peace,
(41:25):
week, all week long.
All we do is making peace.
Oh, my father.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's time I'd be tired.
I mean week, all week long, Allwe do is making peace.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Oh, my father, I'd be tired sometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I'm like man, I'm tired of me.
I've been making peace, man,like that's all I do, but that's
that's what we strive for Inthe body of Christ and in the,
in the sheep that the Lord hastrusted us with.
The Bible says if you love me,feed my sheep, and that is
literally all our time is givento the sheep that God's
entrusted us with and literallymaking peace within the body of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah, so the enemy comes to to to separate.
He comes to destroyrelationships.
He comes to steal our resources.
He wants to kill our bodies,kill our, kill our relationships
.
Comes to cause division, strife, deception.
That's the biggest thing.
How do we overcome church hurt?
How do we protect it and how dowe prevent it?
That's what we do.
(42:10):
Avoid, like, like, avoidtalking with people.
That that's not going to helpyou.
Yeah, paul and barnabas and axe, they agreed to disagree.
Right, paul and barnabas, theyjust didn't agree on the team,
the preferences.
Yeah, barnabas was like yo, Iwant to bring on jean-marc and
jean-marc and paul was like no,I don't like him man, I don't
(42:30):
like how he did it back when wewere back at the other city.
What?
Speaker 1 (42:33):
translation is this Huh.
What translation is this?
It's my translation.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
He said no, I don't like him.
He said absolutely not, we'renot doing it.
All caps, nope, all caps.
That's a millennial right there, talk all caps.
Yep, he wasn't glazing no cap.
No, he wasn't glazing me pierre, oh my gosh like what you
saying the alphas are like.
(42:57):
First of all, I don't know whyI was even listening to this
right now, we're gonna lose allof our younger followers.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
They're like, unfollow, unsubscribe come on, I
still got aura um guys, you cantell we have 11 year old in our
house.
We're learning all the brainrot words.
Anyways, man, we love you guys.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Uh, we have an 11-year-old in our house.
We're learning all the brainrot words.
Anyways, man, we love you guys.
We want to know your thoughtson this conversation.
Are you dealing with churchhurt?
Can we pray for you?
I think we should pray forpeople right now that you came
across this conversation andyou've been hurt by a church and
you don't know if it wasintentional or unintentional.
But I know that the Holy Spiritcan help you overcome it.
He, holy Spirit, can help youovercome it.
He's the comforter, that's allthat matters.
Maybe you listen to this andyou've been on the other side
(43:31):
where you've caused church hurtand maybe you don't even realize
it.
And I hope and pray that thisconversation has enlightened you
and opened up your mind torealize like, oh my gosh, have I
hurt and offended people?
Holy Spirit, reveal it to me soI can go back and right my
wrongs.
I can help people release me sothat they can move further in
their life, but I really.
Our goal is to really helppeople build stronger
(43:52):
relationships, man.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
So I think we should pray A hundred percent.
Way too many times A hundredpercent Also I would really like
to know a counter of how manytimes we said church.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Right, like at a thousand.
Yeah, probably, but let's, let'slet's these church people All
right, cool, um, I also.
I, just before we pray, I wantto encourage anyone who does
have that church hurt and you'reholding onto it.
It.
It literally is saying if youstill have that church hurt and
you're holding onto it, it'sbecause you have not fully given
it to the Lord.
(44:21):
As soon as you are ready andyou are able to just put it in
the hands of the Lord, that'swhen you're free from it.
That's when you release it.
The only reason why you stillhave it is because you're still
holding it.
And as soon as you open yourhands and open your heart and
you lay it at the feet of Jesus,you will be free from that
(44:42):
church hurt.
It may take time for it to heal, but you won't be holding onto
it anymore.
So I just want to encourage youbefore we pray, like while we
pray, make that choice.
It is just a choice to let goof it.
It doesn't mean they're right,it just means you've forgiven.
That's right.
Lord, we just come before youright now.
We thank you for the body ofChrist.
(45:04):
We thank you for the gift thatit is to us, that you have given
us a family, brothers andsisters in Christ that we get to
build a life with, to grow inour relationship with you, and
that it really does make usstronger.
The iron sharpens iron, butsometimes in that process, lord,
people do get hurt.
We've gotten hurt.
Maybe some of our listenersright now are struggling with a
(45:27):
church hurt that was caused bysomeone in the body of Christ,
and I pray for the person whodoes have that church hurt and
who's still holding on to thatpain.
Lord, I ask right now that youwould send your Holy Spirit into
wherever they are and that youwould give them grace, that you
would give them strength to letit go and lay it at your feet.
We know that you are the healerand that doesn't just mean
(45:50):
physically, that meansemotionally, that means
spiritually.
So, father, I ask that youwould heal those wounds, that
you would heal those pains andthose things that have been
caused by church people and thefollowers that do believe in you
and say your name, butsometimes they cause hurt and
pain.
So, father, I thank you thatyou would heal those wounds,
that you would heal those heart,that those would become scars
(46:12):
that heal beautifully and thatwould actually sing of your
praises of how good of a healeryou are, father, I ask that you
would help those people toremember how much you've
forgiven us and that we forgiveyour people.
For all of the leaders that arelistening today, father, I ask
that you would help them to be astronger leader, that you would
help them to be moreself-reflective and see more of
(46:35):
themselves, that they would leadmore like you, that they would
learn to speak with peacethrough their words, that they
would learn to have soft words,soft hearts, soft minds to care
for the sheep that you'vetrusted them with.
We thank you, father, that youdon't leave us, how you found us
, and that in every situationthat we've talked about today,
(46:56):
father, that you would continueto grow us, that you would
continue to make us more likeyou in every aspect, in every
way that we walk, in every wordthat we say, every action that
we take, every conversation thatwe have, that it would reflect
you more and more.
We thank you, father, for yourforgiveness that we wake up to
every day.
(47:16):
We thank you for your son dyingon the cross for us and
forgiving us.
We thank you that you paid theprice that we could never pay,
and so, because of that, wechoose to forgive every single
day.
We thank you for all of this.
Thank you for bringing uscloser, Thank you for drawing us
nearer, thank you for making usmore like you.
In Jesus' name, we pray.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Amen, amen.
Let's dig crew, we love you.
We pray that God blesses you.
We pray that, as you're in thisseason and you're looking for a
church, if you're in the areaof Southern California, you guys
can join us.
We're at Sanctuary Church righthere in Costa Mesa.
We are a church that are spiritled, biblical foundation, and
we love God and we love hispeople, and so we love you.
(47:58):
Guys here at let's Dig thepodcast, be sure to like,
subscribe.
Send this to somebody, though,that you feel like man they're
dealing with.
Church hurt right now.
Don't forget, pick up a hoodie.
We got pins now.
Church hurt right now.
Don't forget, pick up a hoodie.
We got pins now.
We got stickers.
We got some hats.
These are all things that canreally help you grow in
communicating your faith andyour story to other people, and
so keep on digging.
Remember we are here for youguys, to help you guys grow
(48:20):
stronger relationships with God,others and yourself.
We will see you next time,peace.
Let's dig crew.
Thank you for joining thisconversation Today.
We are talking about healingfrom church hurt and I just want
to be clear Church hurt isactually boils down to.
You were hurt by people thatcame from a place called church.
So I just want to lay that outreal quick.
But maybe you're going throughsomething like that.
(00:22):
Maybe you clicked on this videobecause you're actually still
dealing with church hurt andyou're actually not healing from
church hurt.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Or how about this?
Maybe you go to a church andyou're finding yourself slowly
starting to drift, or you'refinding yourself slowly starting
to nitpick at the pastor,nitpick at leadership, Like
everything gets on your nervesand you don't even realize maybe
something might have hurt youright?
Church is made up of imperfectpeople and we all have
(00:50):
expectations on a church.
We have expectation that we puton pastors and on leadership
which they don't know about yourexpectations and then you get
mad and frustrated because theydidn't need it.
Or maybe someone misinterpretedGod's love when it comes to how
they judged or used theirdiscernment in a situation Like
what else?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Like things that can really trigger Anything.
Someone looks at you a certaintype of way and you feel judged
by them.
Or maybe you've been hurtalready.
You've moved on to the nextchurch and now those same things
are starting to resurface, andit's not actually the church,
it's actually wherever you are.
There you are and you'rerunning into the same problems
at the next church.
And how do you deal with that,so that you don't just know your
(01:32):
church hurt?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
You think you're in the right and you think they're
in the wrong and you'refrustrated with the church and
their convictions and the thingsthat they feel led to do.
Or maybe you feel like you'renot heard, thinking that maybe
(01:54):
you think you're supposed to beheard.
You know what I mean.
I think there's a lot of layerswhere people don't realize like
they're upset with the church,they're poking at the church,
they're frustrated with thechurch and not even realizing
like maybe the church they'repoking at the church, they're
frustrated with the church andnot even realizing like maybe
the church may not be as wrongas you think they are and you're
actually hurt, thinking thatyou're right, but you're
actually wrong, I think weshould have this conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
We're going to have a lot of conversation about all
of these questions that we justasked, but first I got to tell
y'all Pierre asked to match metoday.
Guys, I just wanted to say thatwhat happened?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
You asked to match me today guys, I just wanted to
say that what happened?
You asked to match me today.
Oh yeah, we are matching rightnow.
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I did Pierre, we are not a matching couple, but today
, guys, he asked to match me.
He was like what, if we bothwear hoodies today?
Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, yo, if you guys don't know, this hoodie, this
is our new life hoodie.
It's 2 Corinthians, chapter 5,verses 17.
Anyone who belongs to Christ isa new person.
The old life is gone, the newlife has begun.
You should see the back.
We're going to put the link.
We'll make it available foreverybody.
It's 50 bucks.
It's a great hoodie.
It's oversized, it'sheavyweight.
(02:56):
We love wearing this, everybodythat ever buys, it is always
like yo thank you for thishoodie.
It doesn't wear out, it's asolid black.
You're going to love it.
And it's a great way to shareyour story, especially if you
just got saved and you want totestify more, you want to tell
people about your life of Christ.
This hoodie is 100% aconversational starter.
So go get a hoodie, get it forsomebody man.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
All right, but if you are here joining us and you're
new, thank you for joining thisconversation Don't forget to hit
subscribe so that you see ourvideos Every time we post.
Hit that heart button and giveus some appreciation.
We always love when our let'sdig crew team hit that heart
button.
It just lets us know that weare talking about the
conversations you want to hear.
(03:35):
We're bringing value to yourlife and that's always our goal,
and our goal is to help yougrow a deeper relationship with
God, others and yourself.
So if y'all are ready and youcommented, you subscribed, you
shared it and you gave us someheart love.
I think that's everything.
That's everything, man, ifyou've done all of that, let's
dig.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That's funny.
This conversation isinteresting because I'll be
honest with you.
For me, growing up in church,my whole entire life I've dealt
with church hurt and there weretimes where I could have sworn.
I knew like the way I thoughtit, the way I saw it, the way I
felt it was the right way ofseeing it.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I think that's very valid, like I want to.
I want to take that like secondto really dwell on that thought,
because, you're right, a lot ofchurch hurt is really, really
rooted in, I'm right, and theydid me wrong and I don't think
that that's talked about enoughin this situation and in these
circumstances of like, theentitlement of like no, they did
(04:38):
me wrong, they might have, butlike, where in the church is
your voice?
Where are you just a member ofthe church?
Are you hurt because thepastors aren't doing what you
want them to do, like?
I think that that's a veryvalid point to like for people
to internalize and really lookat themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, I think to defend people who's been church
hurt cause I've been church hurtbefore I think finding the line
of calling this place your homebut not getting a say so really
can cause hurt.
Because think about it, for me,as a church leader, I'm a part
of leadership and when peoplejoin our family, they join our
(05:21):
fellowship, they join our home.
You know, especially in thelast 10 years, this new phrase
has been a big thing in churcheswelcome home.
So well, if you're calling thishome at my home, I got to say
so At my home.
If I have a concern about thelighting or concern about the
temperature, or concern aboutthe food that we're serving the
kids, or we're concerned aboutcertain different things, or the
(05:43):
detergent, soap and the candles.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
It's making me break out.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
You know what I mean.
And how dark should it be inthe daytime, or how dark should
it be at night, or trying toread, or when should it be quiet
?
So I have all that say so athome.
But church, as we say, welcomehome, which I understand, that
verbiage, it's just somethingthat just really got really big
in the last couple of years andI think churches mean well
because they want people to feelat home.
But I think sometimes we forgetthat people have say-sos at
(06:11):
home.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
That's very true.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And so people come thinking like this is my home,
these are my family, these aremy brothers and my sisters.
So in their mind, they havetaken their practices that they
implement at home andimplemented at home, aka their
church, which I think we all doit.
So we just think, wow, this ismy home.
(06:33):
I take my shoes off at home.
So when you go to church, youtake your shoes off.
Don't be taking your shoes offat church.
Well, it's my home.
So that's what I'm saying.
So I think what happens ispeople with their culture,
backgrounds and how, with theirupbringing, whatever they do at
home, they come to a church.
It becomes their home and theycome in with all their
expectations.
Or we come in with our mindsetand here's how we do things, and
(06:54):
we just think everyone's goingto listen, everyone's going to
like it because it's home, andwe get upset because all of our
ideas that we're passionateabout someone's not listening,
or they heard it, but we're notgoing to do it.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I think that's been a very different experience for
me now, stepping more intoleadership of like hearing
people's concerns, thoughts,cares, all those things, but
knowing that there is a visionand there is a head of our
church.
It is not us, it's not our ownchurch.
So we are the culture keepers,though we are the ones saying
(07:30):
like hey, this is what ourpastor has called for our church
to do and this is where we'regoing.
But we are also the people thathear from all the other people
in the church of all their caresand concerns.
And it's being in theleadership of like hey, I hear
you, but like that's not wherewe're going right now.
And navigating that is reallychallenging, but it's validating
(07:52):
.
Like hey, I do hear you, it's agreat idea, it's not unbiblical
, but this is not where we'regoing right now.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, that's so true because, like, some people come
to a church and they have theirconvictions, yes, and you get
offended if your pastor doesn'tshare your conviction, right,
and then you feel like, okay, IDM'd my pastor or I told my, or
I tried to, or they preached acertain thing, and it's like
wait, for example, let's talkabout alcohol.
Right, there are some peoplethat get offended if they find
(08:21):
out that their pastor has aglass of wine with their dinner
because of their personalconviction.
Maybe they used to deal withalcoholism, maybe they used to
deal with that like alcoholabuse, so they've made a
decision to cut it out theirlife and so they may go to a
church leader ask questionsabout it.
Hey, I heard that pastor doesthis, or I heard that, and that
church leader, with a pure heart, tries to protect the pastor,
(08:45):
which some people might thinkit's cultish.
Some people might think, well,they're loyalties to this man,
they're covering up for him.
Well, no, first of all, don'ttry to just assume they're
trying to cover up.
The goal is we want to protectthe house and so, on the
pastor's defense, we want tocover him, like you know what
I'm saying.
And so I think some people theyget they, they, they trauma
(09:05):
bond, like where they wentthrough something, and they get
upset if they can't find someoneinside a church to relate with
their trauma, like you know,what I'm saying and then so we
feel hurt or we feel like one.
I remember one lady left thechurch because she tried to
voice herself to one of her teamleaders and her team leaders
didn't side with like herconcern.
But her concern wasn't sin,right, no one was in sin.
(09:28):
There was no immoral behavior.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
There was, like it was just a preference, yes, and
I think people get so caught upin their preferences and they
take it on thinking that, no,this is Bible.
No, that's what you prefer.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Right, which is okay Totally fine.
And if you want to find achurch that does have that, that
is totally fine.
But if you are planted in achurch that may not have that
same preference, then you haveto either accept that that's
where God's planted you, ormaybe he's calling you to
something different.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, that's so big.
Calling you to somethingdifferent, yeah, that's so big.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I do think leadership um failure from leaders to meet
unspoken expectations is one ofthe biggest things that causes
church hurt.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
A hundred percent.
Somebody, somebody puts anexpectation on a leader.
Leader don't even know about it, right?
And you keep getting mad at theleader cause they're not
meeting your expectation.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, that's actually more of my experience of church
or is that Like I'm a personthat loves, like birthdays, and
like there are things in my lifethat happen that are really big
deals.
And I can remember in like my20s, that kind of age group
where I was like man, theydidn't even say happy birthday
(10:42):
to me or they didn't even knowthat I did this.
And this is a big deal.
And I, now that I've fastforward 15, 20 years and I'm
like in that leadership role andI realized my expectations on
my leaders were way too high,because, as you're leading a
church of a few hundred people,there is no way for them to know
what was happening in my life.
(11:03):
That was very important to me,like I I shouldn't have put
those expectations on it,because now that I'm in a
leadership role and I have fivepeople that I could name right
now that are heavy on my heartevery single day, multiple times
a day, because of what they'rewalking through, and then those
five people will change andthree of the five will roll over
(11:24):
to next week, but then I'llhave two new things that are
heavy on my heart.
So all of those things like theweight of leadership in church
and what they carry.
It's impossible for me toremember everybody's birthday
like something like that.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Like I had this thought that when it comes to
church hurt, that some people'schurch hurt is valid.
When it comes to leadershipfailures, yeah, because there's
there's two sides.
There's one side is people haveexpectation on leaders that
they never voice.
There might be preferences, andwhen those leaders don't meet
those, you get hurt, right, andyou want to leave it.
(11:58):
It gets in your heart and youdon't even realize it, right.
You start nitpicking at everylittle thing, everything.
Like I'm saying why does hepreach from the NIV?
Like what, did you not hearthat at NIV back in 1995, there
was, like bro, what is youtalking about?
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So true, Like it gets under your skin every single
thing.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
But here is a church hurt from leadership failure.
that is valid, Like when leadersabuse their power when leaders
use manipulation right whenleaders are hypocrites in their
leadership and it deeply woundspeople.
For example, leaders who forcewhat they say but not as they do
(12:38):
.
That causes people to becomehurt Absolutely, because it's
like hey, I'm trying to followyour lead, you're saying one
thing but doing something elsethat hurt.
It is valid.
Yeah, for sure.
Here's another one.
This is the big one when itcomes to leadership failures.
It's moral.
Failures in leadership canreally shake people's trust and
leave them feeling betrayed.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, I've questioned my placement in the global
church, like big church, whenthere were leaders that I looked
up to that had moral failuresand they did not own it and
understand that yo, you'rehurting people.
It's actually really crazy howmuch something like that affects
(13:18):
other believers in the body.
It's crazy that a mega churchpastor in Nework that we've
never met in our entire livesyeah but when they fell it
actually really did affect usyeah man.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
We never met him, never like, we just looked at
him from afar, appreciated himand valued him.
And you know he's, you knowhe's come back to the lord and
he's owned his mistake and hisfailure and he realized he not
only just felt his wife and hischildren, but he felt everyone
that he was leading.
And to me that's big, becauseI'm like yo when a leader fails
like that, morally speaking,like the hurt that it causes, it
(13:51):
causes people to leave thechurch and so people think
church.
So I want people to know thatthis conversation, not just
belittling church, hurt.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
No, not at all.
Some are very valid.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Like you're hurt because you want to, you know,
switch from chairs to pews.
And it's like, bro, relax, likeI'm not saying that.
I'm saying you could be hurtbecause a leader that you had
high expectations for, andespecially if they're biblical
expectations, absolutely.
Paul talks about it.
He tells this to Timothy, right, he says, like you know, in
Titus, he tells him, like yo, ifyou want to be a church leader,
(14:22):
you must be faithful to yourwife.
Yes, your children, like yourchildren, should respect you.
Yeah, your neighbors you shouldhave a good reputation with
them.
Right, right, you should not beheavy on the alcohol.
Right, you should be able tomanage your money well.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
These are biblical standards, yeah, and so when a
leader doesn't meet theseexpectations, it's not people's
expectation, it's biblicalexpectation.
People get hurt, especiallywhen a leader doesn't own it and
say you know what I messed up.
I failed in this category.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
So true so.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I do think that's another one.
Another thing that causeschurch hurt is is judgment and
like legalism.
Legalism is a big thing when itcomes to church hurt.
This hurts people like this oneright here.
Okay, so some churches leanmore towards rules than grace.
Yes, so making people feelcondemned instead of loved.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
I had a deep conversation with a young lady a
few weeks ago maybe about amonth or two ago and it was
literally us just digging intothe difference between
condemnation and conviction.
Right, because those are verydifferent.
Conviction draws you to theHoly Spirit.
Conviction makes you want toget closer to the Lord.
(15:36):
Conviction works on your heartand makes you draw closer.
Condemnation makes you run andmakes you think that you're
never going to be good enough,and you're never going to be
good enough and you're neverliving up to a standard that is
not there.
Like conviction or condemnationpushes you away because you
think you'll never be able to begood enough and like.
So what you're saying of thatlegalism when it's in a church
(16:00):
and it and it's not grace.
But then, on the flip side,there are churches that are so
about grace that you never see achange in anybody's life.
That's also a problem.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That's a problem too as well.
It's funny too, as you'retalking about condemnation and
conviction.
Condemnation makes you feelshame.
Yes, conviction makes you feelremorse.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Like what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
One makes you remember who you were, yeah, and
the other one makes youremember who you're becoming,
yeah.
Like you know what?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I'm saying it's so true.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
And so I do think legalism does hurt people, like
where people feel like man,they'll never amount to what God
has called them to be becausethey're not waking up at 4 am to
pray and intercede and travailfor four hours Right, that's
legalism.
That's legalism.
People dumping leaders,churches, people dumping on
(16:51):
people like their practice.
I had one guy who almost leftthe church because there were
guys that were discipling himand he said man, they always
make me feel like I'm not closeenough to God.
That's what the guy said to me.
He said coming to church was sohard because these guys were
making me feel like I'm just notthere yet.
That's not healthy.
Because, he said, like theymade me feel bad for sleeping in
.
I was like man.
(17:11):
Rest is a gift, yes, From God,Absolutely.
You know, how many times in theBible Jesus was caught sleeping?
Yes, he's sleeping on a boat Ina storm, and the Bible said he
had a cushion.
Jesus, that man had a pillow Inthe middle of a storm.
You're on the bottom Pillows,before pillows were created.
(17:32):
Jesus, where'd you find thepillow?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
You know you needed a pillow because you know it
could mess up your spine, Likeif your head is not set up right
.
The chiropractor in Jesus waslike nah, I can't be out of
alignment.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
But he could heal himself too right.
So judgmental attitudes towardsstruggles.
So judgmental attitudes towardsstruggles, lifestyle choices or
past mistakes can push peopleaway, causing them to be hurt.
And I think sometimes and we'velearned this from Pastor too,
like you know, there are someleaders that it was
(17:58):
unintentional.
Yes, they were just doing whatthey thought was best Right, and
they unintentionally hurtpeople.
I've unintentionally hurtpeople.
I've unintentionally hurtpeople.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I've unintentionally hurt people.
Remember that person who saidthat I was very fake because I
told them I liked their hair adifferent way than they normally
wear it?
Like I complimented, I'm acomplimenter.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I naturally am like I tell people all the time like
I'm a hype girl, I'm going tohype you up and it's genuine
right.
Like I mean, I'm not gonna hypeyou up for nothing, but I'm
gonna hype you up for youroutfit, your face, your makeup,
all the things.
And I just genuinelycomplimented this lady.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I loveyour hair like this.
I've never seen it.
It's so beautiful.
She thought that I was beinglike, was hurt by me
(18:41):
complimenting her, but it was.
It wasn't that, but it was.
That was trauma inside of herthat it touched a wound.
My good intentions, Iunintentionally hurt her as a
leader.
But I think what we've reallytalked about in the last few
weeks, when it comes to hurtingpeople whether it is your and it
(19:01):
wasn't so much in regards to us, but other people of like their
tone it is your and it wasn'tso much in regards to us, but
other people of like their tone,their approach, uh, cause we
work, not that we get it perfect, but we work very, very, very
hard in our uh conversations,our approaches, our tone of
voice, um, whether it's a voicememo, whether it's a, does that
need to be a phone call?
Ooh, does that one need to bein person?
Like we talk about this stuff alot when we are talking to
(19:24):
people at our church, but we hadsaid in regards to other people
of like, do they have a badheart or they did they have a
bad day?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Like, did their approach in that conversation?
It hurt someone right, but wasthat their heart to hurt them?
Yeah, no, it probably wasn'ttheir heart to hurt them.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
And that's what, and that's what pastor always talks
about, like being, you know,looking at somebody and saying
like, hey, do we charge this totheir heart or do we charge this
to their head?
Cause there's sometimes peopleare people and I'm telling you,
like we've been church hurt andif you listen to this and you've
been church hurt, you have toreally process the person that
hurt you.
What they did to you, was itfrom their heart or was it from
(20:08):
their head?
Yeah, because there's adifference.
God looks at the heart.
So, if their intentions werewell and their heart was in the
right place.
Maybe their head was in thewrong place.
The head right.
That's your soul, that's yourmind.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
That might've been ways that you're programmed.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
That might've just been your childhood, your
childhood how you were raised,how you were raised, your
cultural background, like whereyou come from, your
demographically speaking, likemy nationality, like we approach
things differently from howy'all approach things, for sure.
And so don't charge it to myheart, charge it to my head.
There are some times it issomebody's heart Like I know.
We're talking about thisearlier, about Jesus had someone
like Peter that was next to himand he had someone like Judas
(20:47):
that was next to him, right,judas, it was his heart.
It was his heart.
He allowed bitterness,unforgiveness, all these
negative things to root deepdown into his heart, which his
behavior caused him to betraythe family, betray Jesus, peter,
his head just, he just wasn'tthinking.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yeah.
He had a bad day.
Judas had a bad heart.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's what I'm saying.
So I've had people that getthat got hurt from me and they
just walked out or left andthings like that, not realizing
yo.
That wasn't my intention andI'm so sorry, charge it to my
head, I wasn't thinking or I hada bad day or I wasn't
processing it properly.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
But that brings up an important part of as a believer
that is my responsibility, thatif I'm hurt by someone.
The Bible tells us, if you arehurt by someone, you go to them
one-on-one and you share thatwith them.
That is how we strive for unity.
If we don't tell our leaders,hey, you hurt me and I want to
understand, or can I explain toyou how that came off hurtful to
(21:49):
me.
Can I share with you my heartor your like, can I?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
hear from you differently.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That's your responsibility, it is Bible.
It is not a preference.
It is because what you do, whenyou leave, when you get hurt
and you don't talk to thatperson and you walk out the door
, what you do is you cause hurtin that body and you leave it
wounded and it can never healuntil you go back and you say
(22:14):
hey, this is where this happened, this is what happened, this is
how I felt.
And then, when those two peoplecan stand there and say you
know what I?
Speaker 2 (22:23):
hear you.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
That was not my intention.
I am sorry and I will try to dobetter next time.
Then that wound can starthealing Now if you still need to
move on to the next body ofChrist.
Go for it, but at least youworked for that unity, because
that's what we're called to doas a body of Christ is to be in
unity.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
That's it.
It's funny because there'speople that we're discipling
right now that has called us inthe last month that someone in
the church hurt them.
Yeah, and I remember one ladyshe called me and I was walking
her through it.
She's like what should I do?
I said call that person andwork it out.
It's Bible.
And they were like, really Likeyou guys shouldn't get involved
.
I said, sis, you're jumping tostep three, right.
(23:04):
And I said here's what theBible says.
Jesus said it when somebody doessomething, they hurt you, they,
they, they've harmed you.
It says go to that person inprivate.
This is literally discipleship,this is biblical foundation.
And I remember like she waslike, oh my gosh, she's like
we've never been taught thatbefore and I was like I'm going
to teach it to you right now.
Here's what the Bible says yougo to that person and says I'm
(23:25):
going to give you words, I'mgoing to give you language.
But I said, before you do it,though, speck in their eye.
He said get that big old woodchip out of your eye.
So he's telling them to checkone another.
Just before you do it, checkyourself.
So this is what I want toencourage everybody that's
listening on your point, whatyou're saying.
We need to look at our heartfirst, because that's what God
(23:47):
looks at.
Like, get your head out the wayon both sides.
Like, the leader needs to learnhow to like.
Yo, please forgive me, that wasnot my heart, my head, I just
wasn't thinking, I wasn'tprocessing.
That's how I've done it beforeLike and then the other person
needs to be ready to receivethat forgiveness and give
forgiveness, practiceforgiveness.
But look at their heart and weneed to go to each other.
And the Bible says Jesus saidand then, if you, if they don't
(24:15):
accept it, bring in a thirdparty, bring in a witness, bring
in someone else.
And then still, jesus said ifthey still don't accept it, now
go to the church, bring it tothe church.
Bring it to the leaders, bringit to the pastors and say, look,
we're trying to work this thingout and I admire people who
don't run.
Anyone who runs I do not wantto be in relationship with.
I want someone that wants tofight, for this Wants to fight.
Oh, you hurt me.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You didn't tell me I didn't know, and that's why
anything you don't tell me.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
And that's why Jesus had to forgive those who
crucified him.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
He said father, forgive them, for they know not
what they do.
I'd in even in thatgeneralization of the situation
you're talking about.
I had to encourage someone andI said the hardest thing that we
are called to do as Christiansis to forgive people that will
never ask for forgiveness.
It's required of us, it is acommandment to forgive, and I'm
(25:06):
going to encourage anyone who'slistening right now.
If you have hurt from a leader,maybe you didn't go to them,
maybe you didn't get theopportunity, maybe that
opportunity has passed and youcan't go back and talk about it.
If it's there, please let thisbe an encouragement to you to
say go back to that leader andtalk with them in soft tones, in
calm words, with the love ofJesus in your heart, in standing
(25:29):
biblically in the Bible andsaying hey, this is my job, to
come to you and say that I washurt.
We talk, can we resolve, butbeyond that, if that is not an
option, if that is not possiblefor you to do that, the hardest
job that you have it is acommandment and that is to
forgive them.
Yeah, and if you need a littlebit of inspiration, all you have
(25:50):
to do is think about the fatherthat forgives you, and not just
when you said, lord, forgive mysins, come into my life and
change my life, but he forgivesyou.
And not just when you said,lord, forgive my sins, come into
my life and change my life, buthe forgives you.
Daily, daily, daily, daily.
We get that forgiveness fromthe Lord, daily.
We have grace daily.
We wake up every single day andwe have new forgiveness and new
mercies every morning.
(26:12):
And so that gives me theinspiration to be like who am I
to not forgive?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
a leader.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Who am I to say, oh wait, I get forgiveness every
day, but for you, I'm going tohold onto that one.
I don't want the Lord to holdanything against me that I
didn't do unknowingly.
So, please, I'm going to do thehard work, I'm going to let it
go, and I'm going to let it goand I'm going to forgive.
Oh yeah, even if I never get anapology, even if I never get
(26:38):
the acknowledgement, even thatthey did hurt Well.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Jesus even taught to the measure of what you forgive
will be how you're forgiven,right.
That's why he even taught them.
When you're like, when you'repraying, say forgive us as we
forgive.
That's right, as we forgive aswe forgive.
So maybe you're listening tothis and we didn't mention
anything that you're like well,I didn't get hurt by that.
Look, there's a bunch of thingsthat people get hurt by Right
At church.
You know there's, there's,there's leadership, failure
Right From leadership, there'sjudgment.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Right, there's legalism we talked about
betrayal could be one.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Gossip is a big one For sure.
People were talking about andyou're just going to run, you're
not going to face it, you'renot going to help them.
You're not going to help themget the speck out of their eye,
because that's not biblical.
When people run from that, runfrom the fellowship, broken
friendships being overlooked,that can leave you with wounds.
Maybe this one lack of supportin hard times.
(27:28):
You went through a hard time.
Maybe nobody actually knewabout it and you expect people
to just know about it.
So you get hurt because you'relike it's true you was.
I was in the hospital, I got inthe car, but I'm like you
didn't know you didn't tellnobody, very true.
And then, and then here's thisone people ask you what do you
need?
And you said no, I'm fine, it's.
Do you need anything from us?
no, we're good we're good andyou got hurt that nobody came.
(27:51):
That's one right there.
You gotta own that.
Got to accept that one burnoutis another one yeah burnout
because you don't learn how tospeak up yeah because I get it,
maybe some leaders might haveabused your kindness, your gift
of serving, yeah, but at the endof the day, we got to stand up
to our leaders.
We got to stand up to ourselves.
We have to give ourselves rest,right.
You might have been exploited,you might have been used.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
I that used, I that right there was that one.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's how I got church hurt.
I got church hurt because I wasexploited Like I was feeling
used for my talents and myresources, without genuine
relationships.
That, right there, left mefeeling undervalued.
That was so.
Everyone has one thing thatcaused it.
I chose to forgive.
(28:38):
I reached out to those leadersin the past and said man, I'm
just grateful, thank you, and ifI've ever done anything to hurt
you, please forgive me.
Unmet expectations we talkedabout that one.
That one's a big one why peopleget hurt, and I just want to
encourage everyone to like faceyour church hurt.
Yes, you, your church hurt.
Yes, you have to get healingfrom it.
Like church hurt is real, butit doesn't have to define like
(28:59):
someone's faith.
It doesn't have to define it.
Here's a thought right herewhen it comes to being healed
from it, separate God'scharacter from people's failures
100%.
You want to overcome church hurt.
Separate God's character frompeople's failures.
Don't be mad at God, okay.
Be frustrated with his people,yep.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Wherever people are, there is sin.
Wherever I am, there is sin.
Wherever you are, I'm a person.
We are people, imperfect people.
We are striving for perfect, weare striving for spiritually
led people, but there is sin,there is fault.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Exactly.
Another one is really look fora healthy church.
So if, if, if you are part ofan unhealthy church and you know
it's unhealthy, right Cause Idon't want this conversation to
allude to that Every church ishealthy.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
There are many, many healthy churches.
There are many, many unhealthychurches, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, there are many.
Yeah, yeah, they're all outthere, yeah.
So really look for healthychurches.
How do you do that, though?
Go through the biblicalstandards of what embodies a
church, like what you'll find ina church to determine.
You don't determine what shouldbe a healthy church.
The Bible tells you what youshould find right.
So I'll say, like, really finda healthy church, but also know
(30:15):
that if you're not healthy andyou uproot yourself because of
church hurt, you didn't face it.
You went to another church thatwas healthy and you hid what
you went through and you jumpedin that church trying to act
like you're all good.
When there are problems at thatchurch, you brought them,
(30:35):
because everywhere you go there,you are If the same problem
finds you at the next churchit's you, that's just a cycle of
unhealthy.
It's like man everywhere I go, Iget the same problem.
Yeah, because everywhere you goyou're there, there you are.
It's you, it's you, it's you,it's on your shoes, it's on your
(30:56):
shoes, it's in your face, orit's on your tongue, it's on
your lips.
I'm sorry man, I'm feeling thisone today Also, this one right
here, to overcome betrayal andchurch hurt.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Remember that Jesus was betrayed and that Jesus was
hurt.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, he was and who hurt him?
Religious people.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Religious people yeah .
So Christ understands he suredoes, and he still forgave them.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So don't act like nobody understands the hurt.
Don't act like no oneunderstands betrayal.
Don't act like no oneunderstands being misunderstood.
If anyone does, it is christ.
Yeah, like it's.
So acknowledge the hurt.
I got a list here.
So acknowledge the hurt.
Separate god from the peopleright.
Seek healing, not bitterness.
(31:45):
Another one is find a safespace to process some of us.
We find miserable comfort.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
They're like miserable comforting friends I
was like I'm struggling reallyso paul's.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
So so job his friends when he went through a hard
time and lost everything.
There was a point in time wherehis friends were miserable
comforts misery loves company sofind safe spaces to process but
what does that look like?
Because it's not someone who'sin your same church.
Talk to a mentor.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
It's not someone that's going through the same
thing as you.
It's not the people in yoursmall group that you are being
hurt by.
It's not those people.
It's not your people in yourchurch, because then you're just
gossiping, yeah, like it isliterally people outside of that
circle of where you're gettinghurt.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Outside of that situation, that circle of where
you're getting hurt, outside ofthat situation, or leadership,
yeah with, with the outside ofyou, yeah, always, like all your
negativity always needs to goup to leadership, like it
shouldn't be negativity.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Is that what you said ?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
yeah, all negativity right, so it needs to go up to
leadership right, like itshouldn't go to anyone that
can't help you right, anyonethat can't help you.
Rise above this right.
So find, find mentors, findcounselors, trusted friends like
that that can actually help youwalk through it.
Another thought is avoidventing in unhealthy ways, like
on social media yes subliminalmessages to your pastors.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
I hate when they crap like that like the sharing on
the, on the stories of likeresentful, like you're trying to
poke at somebody but, it's likepassive, aggressive, like,
please don't please don't dothat, bro.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It's, it's real, it's , it's real, it's real.
It's real, like church is real,and I think also I'm going to
say this too as well Just agreeto disagree, not in a passive,
aggressive way, no Meaning.
Like you guys, you willdisagree with certain
preferences and certainbehaviors.
(33:35):
That's not the Bible, doesn'tspecify it.
Or it's not, it doesn't goagainst biblical standards.
Right?
Just just agree that you guysdon't agree on it and that's
okay.
Every church you go to, you'regoing to find that you need to
determine what is your standardsand your non-negotiables.
Literally, everything cannot benon-negotiable.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
That's very true.
There are people that like,everything is hardcore and
you're like, no, that's justpreference.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You mean like everything's non-negotiable.
It's not true, but it's it'slike yo peanut m&ms or milk m&ms
milk and was non-negotiable ew,who calls them milk.
That's what they are.
They're milk m&ms, no chocolateplease, the chocolate is
important yeah you can't justcall who calls them milk m&ms.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Hey, which kind of m&ms are your favorite milk?
No, there, no, there's no milk.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
M&Ms Relax.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Milk chocolate.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Agree to disagree.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Okay, see what.
I mean no, it's non-negotiable.
Non-negotiable Milk chocolatebut it's so true, like how we
have to literally, like ouremotions get wound up,
especially when it's somethingyou're so passionate about and
you feel so strongly that Godhas put this burden on your
heart.
For this thing, you're ready tofight anybody, argue anything
(34:51):
for, however long it takes, andyou actually run people over
when you do that.
But if you would just take astep back, take a breath, slow
down and realize that God hasactually called you to this and
to this standard for your lifebut, he may not have called that
to the next person you'refighting with.
So, instead of fighting withinthe body, calling like causing
(35:17):
uh, disagreements, causing hurt,causing strife about you, just
take a step back, take a breathand actually ask the Holy spirit
to work on them and to work onyou, cause that's the key point
you can't just pray for the HolySpirit to work on that person,
work on that person, changetheir heart, open their eyes,
show them what they should do,but you're not asking the same
(35:38):
thing of the Holy Spirit foryourself.
That's not okay.
Like we need to ask that wehave a Holy Spirit working in us
as well.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, man, that's big One of.
I want to talk real quick to.
I want to talk real quick toman.
These sirens are loud right nowin this city.
You guys know we live in a city, right?
Yo, if you guys are liking thisconversation, make sure you hit
like, make sure you send thisto somebody, subscribe.
But I want to share, I want toshare this.
This is to everyone.
That is a leader and we arecalled to live above reproach.
(36:06):
That's Bible, it's not apreference.
You see what I mean?
It's not a preference, it's nota thought, it's not a cool idea
.
It's Bible.
Those who are called to liveabove reproach.
Right, I had this pastor that Iworked for for several years.
It was actually a pivotalmoment.
It was a church that reallychanged everything about how I
lead.
It's probably the oneorganization that I learned
(36:28):
everything from when it comes to, like my leadership skills,
that that made me the leaderthat I am today.
Totally, um, it wasn't like thefoundational stuff, because
there was another church that Iworked for, like our home church
.
That one, I learned a lot offoundation, but there was
something that happened.
There was a misunderstanding.
I got a message from from himand he kind of just went off
just these are the things likewe, this where we fell, this,
(36:48):
this didn't work, this and he'slike sunday's now I'm gonna have
to come in and rescue it, savethe day.
It was just this bad and like,disappointed, frustrated.
We got to step it up yourleader was.
Your pastor was like, yeah, likehe was saying this to me and,
like my associate, at the timewe were working and, like I
remember, like broke down,breaking down, and I because,
first of all, he didn't give usno space to even like, like,
like, like, like, to speak intoit, and then we just accepted
(37:10):
yes, sir, won't happen again.
Well, the next day he he gotthe full story from someone else
, our executive, and it was like, it was like a aha moment for
him.
But this is not the point ofstory.
The point of story is later onthat day, at church, he pulled
me and my associate aside, heput his hands around us, tears
(37:31):
in his eyes, and he said guysthere, comes a time when a man
has to know when he's right andwhen he's wrong.
And he said I didn't have allthe information yesterday and I
was wrong.
He said I went off on you guysand it was.
It was after service.
We were in the like, like we'rein the lobbies and tears in the
eyes and he was like I'm sorryand I'm looking at him, his eyes
(37:54):
, and I was like it, like it waslike and and I'm looking at him
like man, like someone at thatlevel doesn't really have to do
this.
Yeah, but as a leader, the wayup is down yeah and he said will
you guys forgive me?
and I looked at him, I said hisname, I said man.
I said you will always be topin my book forever because of
what you just did right now.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I said you didn't have to do this.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
I said you will always be top in my book because
of what you did Like.
I said, yes, of course, forgiveyou, Because I remember getting
so upset.
But, the crazy thing is what hedoesn't know is I already
forgave him.
And what I'm saying is thestory is twofold.
It's to leaders to learn how tohumble yourselves.
(38:32):
It's Jesus right, he tooklashes, he took hits that wasn't
his to take and he did that asa leader.
He humbled himself.
So, as a leader, I'm learningmore and more to like humble
myself and say hey guys, that'son me, I'm not my bad, I'm sorry
.
Who doesn't respect that?
yeah, but the second full is theperson who got offended yeah
(38:54):
refused to hold on to it and Iactually forgave him before he
even asked for it that's crazyand I think people who are
leaders need to learn how to askfor forgiveness 100 own it and
those who got offended learn tostop being offendable.
Like, or or don't be offended.
Stop being offended, yeah, likeit's, it's, that's.
That's.
The stronger you are, thestronger I am.
(39:15):
If you come and push me on myshoulders, right, because I stay
strong, that won't hurt me.
Yeah, people are getting churchhurt because they're weak,
they're not in in the word andthey do not take on the full
armor of God.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
And it doesn't give all of this, like it doesn't
give the leaders the right tohurt them, like it's not
excusing everything that leadersdo right, because leaders mess
up.
Leaders are people and they'rehuman and they do make mistakes.
But as the person that'sfollowing like, it's my
responsibility to make sure Igive forgiveness.
(39:51):
It's my responsibility to makesure I don't even give the
tiniest place for the devil totake root in my heart and create
bitterness and resentment andhate towards my leaders.
So it is.
It is both it's both sided ofthe leader has to do the
responsibility of asking forforgiveness, of being humble,
(40:11):
and it's the following person tosay you know what?
You don't even have to ask forit, I forgive you already.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Exactly so, whether whether you are offending people
and you're hurting people andyou don't know it, or whether
you've been hurt.
How do you overcome this?
How do you protect this and howdo you prevent this?
It's, ultimately, it's puttingon the full armor of God.
How do I keep myself fromgetting hurt when I have the
helmet of salvation?
It don't matter what you do totry to get in my head.
(40:39):
I meditate on God's word and hisword and his truth daily.
You talked about the enemytries to come at us and try to
shoot things at us.
The Bible says to put on thebreastplate of righteousness the
shield of faith, so that whenthe enemy comes to come and
shoot at you, those fiery darts,bitterness, unforgiveness,
shield of faith, breastplate ofrighteousness.
(41:02):
Right, and for leaders that areout there and you're hurting
people, you don't even realizeit.
You need to make sure that youhave on peace as your shoes.
We walk into a room and work tomake peace.
Jesus said blessed are thosethat work for peace or blessed
is the peacemaker.
So my job, so my job as aleader, is to always make peace,
(41:25):
week, all week long.
All we do is making peace.
Oh, my father.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's time I'd be tired.
I mean week, all week long, Allwe do is making peace.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Oh, my father, I'd be tired sometimes.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I'm like man, I'm tired of me.
I've been making peace, man,like that's all I do, but that's
that's what we strive for Inthe body of Christ and in the,
in the sheep that the Lord hastrusted us with.
The Bible says if you love me,feed my sheep, and that is
literally all our time is givento the sheep that God's
entrusted us with and literallymaking peace within the body of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah, so the enemy comes to to to separate.
He comes to destroyrelationships.
He comes to steal our resources.
He wants to kill our bodies,kill our, kill our relationships
.
Comes to cause division, strife, deception.
That's the biggest thing.
How do we overcome church hurt?
How do we protect it and how dowe prevent it?
That's what we do.
(42:10):
Avoid, like, like, avoidtalking with people.
That that's not going to helpyou.
Yeah, paul and barnabas and axe, they agreed to disagree.
Right, paul and barnabas, theyjust didn't agree on the team,
the preferences.
Yeah, barnabas was like yo, Iwant to bring on jean-marc and
jean-marc and paul was like no,I don't like him man, I don't
(42:30):
like how he did it back when wewere back at the other city.
What?
Speaker 1 (42:33):
translation is this Huh.
What translation is this?
It's my translation.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
He said no, I don't like him.
He said absolutely not, we'renot doing it.
All caps, nope, all caps.
That's a millennial right there, talk all caps.
Yep, he wasn't glazing no cap.
No, he wasn't glazing me pierre, oh my gosh like what you
saying the alphas are like.
(42:57):
First of all, I don't know whyI was even listening to this
right now, we're gonna lose allof our younger followers.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
They're like, unfollow, unsubscribe come on, I
still got aura um guys, you cantell we have 11 year old in our
house.
We're learning all the brainrot words.
Anyways, man, we love you guys.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Uh, we have an 11-year-old in our house.
We're learning all the brainrot words.
Anyways, man, we love you guys.
We want to know your thoughtson this conversation.
Are you dealing with churchhurt?
Can we pray for you?
I think we should pray forpeople right now that you came
across this conversation andyou've been hurt by a church and
you don't know if it wasintentional or unintentional.
But I know that the Holy Spiritcan help you overcome it.
He, holy Spirit, can help youovercome it.
He's the comforter, that's allthat matters.
Maybe you listen to this andyou've been on the other side
(43:31):
where you've caused church hurtand maybe you don't even realize
it.
And I hope and pray that thisconversation has enlightened you
and opened up your mind torealize like, oh my gosh, have I
hurt and offended people?
Holy Spirit, reveal it to me soI can go back and right my
wrongs.
I can help people release me sothat they can move further in
their life, but I really.
Our goal is to really helppeople build stronger
(43:52):
relationships, man.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
So I think we should pray A hundred percent.
Way too many times A hundredpercent Also I would really like
to know a counter of how manytimes we said church.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Right, like at a thousand.
Yeah, probably, but let's, let'slet's these church people All
right, cool, um, I also.
I, just before we pray, I wantto encourage anyone who does
have that church hurt and you'reholding onto it.
It.
It literally is saying if youstill have that church hurt and
you're holding onto it, it'sbecause you have not fully given
it to the Lord.
(44:21):
As soon as you are ready andyou are able to just put it in
the hands of the Lord, that'swhen you're free from it.
That's when you release it.
The only reason why you stillhave it is because you're still
holding it.
And as soon as you open yourhands and open your heart and
you lay it at the feet of Jesus,you will be free from that
(44:42):
church hurt.
It may take time for it to heal, but you won't be holding onto
it anymore.
So I just want to encourage youbefore we pray, like while we
pray, make that choice.
It is just a choice to let goof it.
It doesn't mean they're right,it just means you've forgiven.
That's right.
Lord, we just come before youright now.
We thank you for the body ofChrist.
(45:04):
We thank you for the gift thatit is to us, that you have given
us a family, brothers andsisters in Christ that we get to
build a life with, to grow inour relationship with you, and
that it really does make usstronger.
The iron sharpens iron, butsometimes in that process, lord,
people do get hurt.
We've gotten hurt.
Maybe some of our listenersright now are struggling with a
(45:27):
church hurt that was caused bysomeone in the body of Christ,
and I pray for the person whodoes have that church hurt and
who's still holding on to thatpain.
Lord, I ask right now that youwould send your Holy Spirit into
wherever they are and that youwould give them grace, that you
would give them strength to letit go and lay it at your feet.
We know that you are the healerand that doesn't just mean
(45:50):
physically, that meansemotionally, that means
spiritually.
So, father, I ask that youwould heal those wounds, that
you would heal those pains andthose things that have been
caused by church people and thefollowers that do believe in you
and say your name, butsometimes they cause hurt and
pain.
So, father, I thank you thatyou would heal those wounds,
that you would heal those heart,that those would become scars
(46:12):
that heal beautifully and thatwould actually sing of your
praises of how good of a healeryou are, father, I ask that you
would help those people toremember how much you've
forgiven us and that we forgiveyour people.
For all of the leaders that arelistening today, father, I ask
that you would help them to be astronger leader, that you would
help them to be moreself-reflective and see more of
(46:35):
themselves, that they would leadmore like you, that they would
learn to speak with peacethrough their words, that they
would learn to have soft words,soft hearts, soft minds to care
for the sheep that you'vetrusted them with.
We thank you, father, that youdon't leave us, how you found us
, and that in every situationthat we've talked about today,
(46:56):
father, that you would continueto grow us, that you would
continue to make us more likeyou in every aspect, in every
way that we walk, in every wordthat we say, every action that
we take, every conversation thatwe have, that it would reflect
you more and more.
We thank you, father, for yourforgiveness that we wake up to
every day.
(47:16):
We thank you for your son dyingon the cross for us and
forgiving us.
We thank you that you paid theprice that we could never pay,
and so, because of that, wechoose to forgive every single
day.
We thank you for all of this.
Thank you for bringing uscloser, Thank you for drawing us
nearer, thank you for making usmore like you.
In Jesus' name, we pray.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Amen, amen.
Let's dig crew, we love you.
We pray that God blesses you.
We pray that, as you're in thisseason and you're looking for a
church, if you're in the areaof Southern California, you guys
can join us.
We're at Sanctuary Church righthere in Costa Mesa.
We are a church that are spiritled, biblical foundation, and
we love God and we love hispeople, and so we love you.
(47:58):
Guys here at let's Dig thepodcast, be sure to like,
subscribe.
Send this to somebody, though,that you feel like man they're
dealing with.
Church hurt right now.
Don't forget, pick up a hoodie.
We got pins now.
Church hurt right now.
Don't forget, pick up a hoodie.
We got pins now.
We got stickers.
We got some hats.
These are all things that canreally help you grow in
communicating your faith andyour story to other people, and
so keep on digging.
Remember we are here for youguys, to help you guys grow
(48:20):
stronger relationships with God,others and yourself.
We will see you next time,peace.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.