Closer Look: FIRE INVESTIGATORS

Unlock the secrets of fire investigation with our latest episode, where seasoned investigators Scott Kuhlman and Chastity Owens narrate their interesting lives in the meticulous world of fire and explosives investigation. Through their eyes, we traverse the challenging educational pathways and the diverse roles within the public and private sectors of this critical field, offering you a rare glimpse into a profession that blends bravery with intellect.

We contrast the split-second decision-making of firefighting with the detailed scene analysis conducted by fire investigators—two sides of the same coin, yet worlds apart in approach. Our guests open up about the intricacies of establishing credibility, the weight certifications hold in court, and the impact of mentors who shape the future of fire investigation. It's a conversation that not only enlightens but also pays homage to the unsung heroes who often work behind the yellow tape.

Enjoy the  deep exploration into the adrenaline-infused intersection of fire investigation, court testimonies, and emerging safety threats, including the volatile nature of lithium-ion battery fires. Join us as we recount personal tales from the field, reflect on the infamous John Orr scandal, and discuss the international implications of fire safety education. This episode promises to leave you with a profound appreciation for the dedication and skill that goes into uncovering the truth behind the flames.

Thanks for taking the time to listen in. Please leave us 5 stars on Spotify & Apple Podcasts with a review. THANK YOU!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Scott and Chastity, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, yeah, thanks forcoming on.
We've been trying to plan this,scott, for quite some time.
It's been a while.
Yeah, it has been a long timecoming, but thank you for
spending time on this Saturdayand coming out.
We really appreciate it.
Got a few things to talk about,but, scott, our relationship
goes back because we workedtogether in the fire department
for as long as I've been on 16years.
Yeah, it's gone by fast, dog,it's a long time.

(00:34):
Yeah, it's gone by really fast.
Now we met in the fire service,but how did you meet Chastity?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
So Chastity.
So in the path that I've takenin the fire service I've kind of
gravitated towards fireinvestigation and I've done both
private work along with thepublic work.
Chastity has worked with me ata private company and she was
originally hired as an evidencetech but she got an education
that allowed her to do fireinvestigation.

(01:02):
So she would come with me andshe would process scenes with me
and she was very, very good atit.
So we kind of became buddiesthrough that.
And then our department that wepreviously worked for we got
absorbed by another departmentand we're so busy that I
couldn't do private work anymore.
But we've stayed in touch, okay.
So that's how Chastity and I Imean she's kind of part of our

(01:22):
family now my wife and her theyget along.
We include her in everything.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
So I'm like an adopted daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, she's our third child.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
Oh, that's cool.
Now, how did you get into fireinvestigation Chastity?
Because you're not.
You're not a sworn infirefighter right.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, I'm not a public anything entity, so
You're missing out, trust meyeah people always ask me what
department are you with?
It was actually an accident, sothe school that I went to.
Can I plug my school?
I want to do that.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
You can plug Eastern Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
University Wait.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (01:53):
Eastern Kentucky University.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (01:55):
where you're from.
I'm from Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yo, south of Kentucky , what people need?
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
So anyway, so I just went to that school because it
was about 30 minutes north ofwhere I'm from, just to that
we're told we need to go tocollege.
So we go to college, yeah, andI was two years in and had no
idea what I was going to do.
I'd claim two different majorsand I took a placement test
based off of the majors thatwere in my school, and fire and

(02:22):
forensics were in my top five.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
And so they put me in the fire program and I fell in
love with it and then got a joboffer in Southern California.
And here I am.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
When did you come out to California?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Five years ago 2018.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Okay, you seem like you're losing your accent just a
little bit, it's still there,it's still there a little.
Okay, so Scott's wearing off onyou.
I don't know I was like wellshit no oil.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
I say this every time Ask her her favorite drink.
What's your favorite drink?

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Sprite.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
There you go, dude Sprite.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Sprite.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
Every time we go to dinner or we take her out to
lunch.
It's Sprite.
I'm like, oh, sprite.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
No, the waiters do.
They're always like.
Excuse me.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
It's.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Sprite.
What did you say?

Speaker 4 (03:00):
Sprite.
So how long did the like whenyou were from school, when you
pursued the fire side of theinvestigation, like what was
that like getting into thatfield?
Did you go volunteer somewhere,or was it kind of just there's,
you know, because I don't knowthe private side of
investigations too much.
So how was that process?

Speaker 3 (03:21):
So I got dragged into it.
A company the first companythat I worked for actually came
to our school to recruit us outof our senior year.
So I had a job offer inSouthern California almost right
away, Wow.
So I graduated in May and I wason the job in August, so but it
was an evidence tech first andI like kind of promoted up to

(03:42):
fire investigator and then, yeah, now here I am.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Well, how tough are those classes?
Because, let's be real, here wetake fire service classes to
get certain certifications right.
We call them.
They're firefighter classes.
But what is that studying like?
How was that schooling?
Was it difficult, easy?

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Honestly for me.
I would say it was easier thanmy gen eds because I liked it.
I liked what I was doing and itwas very hands on.
So it's like I don't know ifyou've ever been a part of like
CFEI training.
Have they done anyinvestigation stuff?

Speaker 4 (04:17):
No, it's fancy.
All I know is undeterminedelectrical.

Speaker 3 (04:20):
That's about a percent of the case Absolutely,
and one of my reports Usuallywhen I talk to someone on the
public side they're like youknow, it's undetermined, but
probably electrical, usuallyunless it's Scott.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Scott's the man.
I put that out there Scott'sthe man.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah, so we would do a lot of hands on stuff.
So they had these concretecells, 12 by 12 cells.
So instead of building themover and over again, they were
just concrete and they only hadto build the inside and we would
do like hands on burns inschool the last two years of my
college degree and then we alsodid.

(04:59):
One of my professors was a FBIbomb squad retiree, so he would
build IEDs and explode like carsand stuff and then we had to do
like real-time explosivesinvestigations too.
It was really fun.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
No way really.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
So it was actually.
It was difficult when we had todo like the paperwork side and
the reports and the tests, butthe hands-on stuff was so much
fun, it just kept you right intoit, okay so.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
I know they can't do this at the school.
They can't blow up a car in theparking lot.
Did they take you to an FBIsite, or was it somewhere out in
the middle of nowhere?

Speaker 3 (05:32):
So you've never been to Kentucky.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
No man.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
It's rural.
So yes, we did do it at thecollege it was just you had to
drive back into.
I, just like we had to driveback into a field.
So it was like maybe like afive to seven minute drive back
into this field area where wedid our burns and our explosions
.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, that's so rad we do that here.
It might be a nightmare.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
So, Tim, the question was what's the difference
between fire?
And then her education?

Speaker 3 (05:59):
and because Public and private yeah public and
private education.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
She comes out with a full of bachelors in science,
and so it encompasses chemistry,all the stuff that we don't get
on the public side, but we'llget it if we seek it right.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
Right.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
So for investigation here I can speak specifically to
California you need 120 hoursof school to meet the minimum
standard to be a fireinvestigator here in California,
but you still don't have adegree and it doesn't cover
chemistry at the level that youwould if you went to EKU and we
don't come out with a BS.
So they're just very moretechnical and where ours is kind

(06:41):
of more on the job training,yeah yeah, so we're probably
going to start a debate here,but I always like, look, what I
bring is as a firefighter I'vebeen asked to deploy hose lines
and then as a captain I've beenhad to make decision where we
deploy, deploy hose lines,because they have to understand
where the fire is going, whatit's doing, in order to put it
out right.
One of our old departmentthings that I always remember is

(07:02):
where's the fire going to be infive minutes?
So I got to put my hose line inthere, knowing that it's going
to take some time for it to getdeployed.
So I'm like, look, I bring theexperience of firefighting and
having to figure out where it'sgoing to be, where yours has all
been burned in a box, and thenshe'll say what.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
Okay, this isn't our biggest debate.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
No, but let's debate this one first.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
But okay, so this isn't our most interesting
debate, because I do agree to anextent of that.
I don't agree with the peoplewho are telling me that I'm not.
I wasn't as experienced or Iwasn't gonna do as good of an
investigation just because Ihadn't been in a burning
building 100%.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
You're one of my favorite fire investigators.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
And that was my biggest problem when I first
started, because I was young andthey were like you've never
fired, done firefighting, youdon't know, and so I really had
to prove myself in the firstthree years and having him as a
mentor definitely helped,because he spoke for my
reputation too, because I amgood at my job and I really love
my job.

(08:03):
So that's not really a hugedebate, because I agree on your
level of what you say about it,but I don't agree on some of the
other guy's level.

Speaker 4 (08:14):
I think it's just one of those things it's easy to
dismiss because you don't comefrom the suppression side of it,
like the active suppressionside, because everything that
Scott just listed, those areinfluences of what the damage or
the behavior of the fire candictate with what you're doing.
So, not having that background,like when you've literally been

(08:36):
inside of places, it's easy todismiss that like, yeah, you
don't know the experience, butit's also like experience is
subjective to a certain extentanyway, Because, if you're as an
investigator, you're not.
I had an active fire, unless youare, because I don't know all
the sides of it.

(08:57):
But for the most part it's justinterpretation of what you get
when you get there.
So, it's like, yeah, we createa lot of water damage, that's
what we do, or we used to pullall of everything off the walls
to make it very, very difficult.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
The department still do.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
Yeah, but that used to be a thing.
It was like you go in and we'dlike race each other to see how
much drywall we can pull off thewalls.
You know what I mean.
And then at the end, theinvestigator shows up and goes
what the heck guys.
You're like it's clean, it'snot going to start again.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
It's definitely a learning curve.
So I would say to that point isthe learning from the public
side is real, in real timelearning, and then we're in
school watching the videos of ithappening or learning the
patterns after it's happened andthey're having to describe to

(09:50):
us, based off of their real timeexperience, why we're seeing
what we're seeing.
So that's kind of how thedifference in experience was we
didn't get to see the patternsform or why they were forming.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
We got to explain why it was, and so I guess that's
kind of I'm not saying it makesyou better than or less than,
it's just we bring a differentside of the experience to the
investigation.
But then I would argue.
The other side for your levelof education is you've been

(10:24):
technically trained much deeper,with much more depth and
breadth of the technical aspectof how these are done.
And so you will eventually getthe experience.
I mean, you're already gettingexperience, but I'm just saying
it's just coming from twodifferent ways, but at the end
we're all looking at the samefire.
So but I know that's a bigdebate we have, although she
said we have another one.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
I was like hold on what's the biggest debate.
What do you know what thebiggest?

Speaker 3 (10:48):
debate is I don't.

Speaker 4 (10:49):
I don't, yes, you do.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Oh dude.
The NAFI, the NAFI CFEI and theIAAI CFI.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
I don't really think that's a debate.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
There's a lot of that that's being thrown out right
now, a lot of acronyms, so itdoesn't even have to go into
this podcast we don't even haveto waste time on it.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
So it's National Association of Fire
Investigators, and then the IAAIis the International
Association of ArsutInvestigators.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
And let's tell them what that's about.
So when you're in theinvestigation field, your goal
is to become a certified fireinvestigator and what that means
is you've been validated andtested by an outside third party
to show that you've met aminimum standard, that you can
answer a test, that you've donethe training and that you've met
a minimum criteria.
And in our world, our being thepublic side.

(11:37):
At the department we currentlywork for, they want you to get
that within the next couple ofyears Because it's a lot of
clout and court Shows you'vebeen evaluated OK In the private
world.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Did you say clout?

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
I'm impressed.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Ok, continue, I have a couple 75 cent words in there,
continue, continue.
I'll break out the dollar wordslater.
So, in the private world though, you have to have a CFI, or the
insurance companies won't lookat you.
So there's a couple ways.
No, you have to have a CFI.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
I don't.
I didn't but continue.
We have a debate on this, See.
Continue, though.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
So there's levels of CFI.
So for us we have InternationalAssociation of Firefighters.
That's something for us Rawlandand probably a lot of your
listeners.
Right yeah, for the fireinvestigator, we have
International Association ofArts and Investigators.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Arts and Investigators.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
And they give you a CFI.
And then there's another thirdparty called National
Association of FireInvestigators.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
And there's a CFE, so it's Certified Fire and
Explosion Investigators.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
So just to get to the point of the arguments, unless
you're in this, it's probablyboring.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
It doesn't really matter yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yeah, I put IAAI currently above Nafi and she
does it.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
No, I do.
That's not the debate.
The debate is that I don't knowthis debate.
Yes, you do, I'm going tocomment on my voice.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
We used to argue about it.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
I'm arguing about something.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
I don't know, I want to hear it.
Yeah, yes, linda.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
Well, here's what I'm seeing, though is yes, you come
from a private sector, he'spublic, but it seems like you
both complement each other verywell.
Yeah, it's like you feed offeach other.
You're learning certain thingsbecause she has a degree, but
you're learning things becausehe's on the fire side.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
he's got the experience.
I mean, you can ask hersomething better personally, the
communication is very helpful,especially when I get them in
Orange County.
I can call him or Brad orsomebody and be like, hey, this
is what I got.
Can you give me anything?
What's the incident number?

Speaker 1 (13:29):
And what a better mentor.
How many years you gotannounced?

Speaker 2 (13:31):
Scott Fire service.
Yeah, I'm going to hit 30 years.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Oh, it's 30 years.
Are you coming in?

Speaker 4 (13:37):
You're right there, doc, the big 3-0.
Yeah, Dude, yeah,congratulations.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
That's huge.
But think about you know you'rewell respected in the fire
service.
You've done well with yourcareer, You've worked through
the ranks and some people knowyou are a fire investigator and
you were highly sought after andyou're very good at what you do
.
So what better way to have amentor than Scott, who's also
very personable?
I look back at my career.
He was hard on me when I firststarted, but now, looking back

(14:01):
and seeing how well I've done, Isee why he was so hard.
I'm like, oh, it's almost likeyour parent.
I see my parents now.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
And.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
I'm like I get it.
You know, like when my dad usedto shut the lights off in the
house all the time, like, whatare you doing right Now?
I have my own home, like dude,shut the lights off.
You got these bills, man, soyou've done really well with
your career.
How did you get into fireinvestigating, or even why?
What was the draw for you to dothat?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Were you guys around when there was Bill King?
Excuse me, bill King or LouKingman.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
I remember those names.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
They weren't on Bill had just retired, maybe a year
or two before we had gottenhired.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, because I was just six months on before.
Ok.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
So those two gentlemen were fire
investigators, and Bill King wasa good buddy of mine and there
was a fire investigator beforethat name, willie Dumas, who was
very well respected in theindustry, and so it's something
I'm like OK, and my other friendwho worked for a local agency
here.
He became a fire investigator.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
OK.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
But I'm like I don't know more than this guy, Like I
could be doing this right.
So I'm like maybe I should lookinto.
So Bill King encouraged me andat the time I was a paramedic
and at the time in our agencyyou can only be a captain.
So they said, look, we're notgetting a lot of interest, we're
going to open up to everybody.
So I put in and I was selected,but it was some kind of quasi,

(15:27):
like they were the two day guysand then I would just come in
and help as needed, which isfine, and I lived in the city at
the time.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
Oh, right, yeah, yeah , yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
It was super easy to go in.
So that happened.
And then we went through budgetcuts.
Bill retired, they gave awaythe 40 hour spot.
So I wrote a program and wekind of called it
suppressigators your suppression, and then you shift to an
investigator when you're doneright Suppressigators.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
So it's in the name of my punk band.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Well, a lot of this I've taught a lot of students
here in California.
It's always break it in.
There's full time investigators, then there's suppressigators,
which is the firefighter thatturns in the investigator after
the call, and then there's theinspector.
The inspectors who also doinvestigation, and each one is
unique in its own way, butthat's how I got into it.
And then we developed a programwhere we, when you guys come in

(16:19):
, you could be level one, leveltwo and there's some bones tied
to it.
And then that's what we did.
So the thing about Chastity 9that we get along really well at
and you may have a touch of ittoo is we have ADHD and it's
roaring.
Your mind is never.
You're pointing at me, yes.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
OK, yes, you're correct.
Yeah, I was like yeah, you'respot on with that one,
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
So we've learned to connect through that.
And my poor wife?
She just tolerates us.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
It's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
It's hilarious Because we're just going a mile
a minute, so you can never learnenough in this field.
If you want to learn aboutsolar panel fire, then you can
go down a rut.
If you want to learn aboutchimney fires or any fires.

Speaker 3 (17:01):
Dryer vents, anything .

Speaker 2 (17:03):
And there's a field unto itself.
So this racing mind we bothhave will never, you won't, run
out of material.
And then you can apply it tothe job, so that's why I've
stayed in it.
So I'm one of the only olderguys that stayed in this long.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
How long have you been in the investigation?
24 years, oh my gosh dude.
Man that's been a while.
That's a long time.
It's been a while what?
Getting into investigation alot of people.
So people know you also arekind of like a peace officer,
right, because you have to go tocourt.
You're armed at times, right?

Speaker 2 (17:35):
So we currently work.
We are sworn, yeah.
So we have a firearm, we haveto qualify, and I was just in
court yesterday.
So, yeah, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Ok, I got to know here when you had to go to your
first court appearance.
How stressful was that.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Well, I have to think back because, remember, I've
done it.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
You've been here a lot Over 20 years.
24 years ago Did it ever stand?

Speaker 1 (17:56):
like did you ever get caught in the stand?
Like, ah, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
Did you miss?
Spell something?
There's no way.
There's no way.
You're the expert, huh yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:04):
Really.
You're such a perfectionist.
I never would have expectedthat, because.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I've gone to court.
I say it's because I've gone tocourt once on a medic thing,
right, because the rest isthere's some of that.
Anyways, it was a nightmare,dude.
I got full aid because some ofmy spelling was off on when we
still had the writing the PCRs.
Was this a deposition?

Speaker 2 (18:20):
or actual.
Were you in court?
No, was there a judge in theroom?
Yes, oh, so OK.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
You're in court, yeah it was legit.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
It was stressful, dude, and was it for a medical?
Yes, and were you probably what?
They weren't going after you?
You were probably a witness tosomething.
Yes, that's what it was.
That's usually the case.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, but they pulled the PCR dude and some of my
spelling was off.
They're like what does thatmark mean?
I'm like I don't know dude.
They're fine Dude.
It was a nightmare.
I left there so embarrassed.

Speaker 4 (18:47):
I was just like.
I feel like I shouldn't be amedic anymore.
You come in as the specialistand you leave going like what am
I doing?

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Yeah, that's why I wonder, Because I remember you
were talking about you'd go tocourt all the time and I was
thinking, dude, that's got to bestressful, that has to be a
nightmare, it's one of those.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
You know me so I like to argue, and you know my union
.
You're very good at arguing yeah, so I don't mind it.
And it's one of those thingslike I don't know if you
remember when you were in schooland the grades come out and
you're like, oh man, this is notgoing to be good.
I was always the other.
I'm like, oh, this is going tobe good because I can show my
parents that I've been working,because I've worked hard.
So when I go to court, becauseI do put a lot of time and

(19:28):
effort into my investigations,I'm like bring it on, let's go.
Do I get nervous?
Yeah, you still get nervous,but it's going to be like oh,
did I not do the right spelling?
But it's not on yourdetermination of the origin and
cause which that would win orlose the kids.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
So that's what I would say.
That's my first thought.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, but I mean, dude, I mean we have some.
The one I just went into Friday.
I'm looking, I'm like oh,that's not how you spell, that,
you're like oh man.
I'm going to get nailed on that.
But that's just the reality andeverybody knows that they can
see past that.
But I don't really remember thefirst time I was in court.
I remember the first time I wasin trial and it was just me and

(20:07):
the judge and it was a civiltrial.
So when we go to investigations, if you arrest somebody it's
going to be criminal.
Okay, all right so.
But sometimes we'll dosomething that's an accidental
fire and then you'll go towhat's called the deposition
first and it's usually likeeight attorneys and they all
want to PC you, except for one,because one likes the way you

(20:28):
worded it, the other seven don't.
That can last nine hours andthere's no judge there to stop
them from beating up on you.
Nine hours.
It could be nine, mine was ninehours and they're going through
and I prepared and I'm like,okay, this is good.
Well, they went to trial.
So my first trial was with acivil case, excuse me.
So I remember, and it was athermostat issue and the people

(20:54):
that lived there didn't know ifthe thermostat was working or
not.
They didn't understand how itworked.
Got to remember some peopledon't understand the way we live
.
So I kept asking like, well,did it go on, they go.
We don't know what it said, butwe know when it gets cold, it
goes on.
I'm like, okay, so it wasworking.
Do you know how to do it?
We don't even know what thisthing does, so I'm like, okay.
So I'm sitting in the stand.
I'm sitting on the stand andthe judge is right here and the

(21:16):
guy's asking me the attorney'slike was it working or not?
I'm like, well, your honor, orwell, counselor, I can't answer
that because they didn't know ornot, and so he kept trying to
ask it and finding the judgelooks down on me because they
sit higher than you and he'sdesigned that way for show who's
running the court and he goesinvestigator Coleman, did it
work or not?
I'm like, oh gosh, so I'm likeyour honor.
The best way I can answer thatis that I'm going to say it

(21:39):
worked because it did go on, itwas cold and that's as much as
they knew.
But I'm not an expert on howthermostats operate or not.
But, yes, and he's like okay,that's all we need.
I'm like okay, so that was myfirst like okay, but that was.
You're nervous.

Speaker 4 (21:54):
But I mean I imagine, yeah, especially if it draws
out.
You know, you go through thedeposition, the buildup in time,
the angst of now you have todeliver in front of a group you
know what I mean and, dependingon what you say, maker breaks
whoever is involved, right, sothere's a lot of moving pieces
to those things.
It's very interesting.
I want I'm sorry I don't haveto phrase this what is like the

(22:17):
fire investigators like?
Or your guys, because I'm sureit varies from people to people,
but like what's like your?
Oh my God, one day, if I runthis investigation, what like?
What scenario is that Like?
What's like the super bowl offire investigators, called types
Like?
What would that be?
Does that make sense?
Do you want to say that?

Speaker 2 (22:37):
I know what.
I know what you're saying, butfor me, because I'm on the
public side, those fires are ifit's truly an intentionally set
fire, let's get this personespecially send harm or displace
people.
Those are the one and then theystick right, that you've done a
good thrill and completeinvestigation and that it moves

(22:57):
forward and the right outcome isthat there's no technical you
know, like you technicallydidn't do this or so.
Those for me, those are theones currently.
If I was on the private I'dhave a different one.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
I'm curious to see, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't pick
one in particular.
I think my favorite are theones that we can, like without a
doubt, determine the cause.
Those are exciting, because alot of the time, they do come
out undetermined with, likepotential causes, and then they
go on and on and on, andsometimes the insurance company
will cut you off before you getto the point, so I would say, my

(23:33):
favorite one ever, though, isdo you know what I'm trying?

Speaker 2 (23:37):
to tell.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I did a church fire.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yes, I do, it's so good.
Thank you, jesus, you got achurch fire.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
Hallelujah.
Keep everyone's name out of ityeah, absolutely.
Well, I don't know, I don't evenremember the city, it was
perfect, yeah.
So I was in the desertsomewhere at a church fire and
the fire department had told meit was electrical.
And so I go into the church andI do my thing and I'm taking my

(24:04):
photos and stuff and I'm likestaring where the origin is and
the electrical box is in theorigin the breaker panel and I'm
like staring at it.
I'm like this doesn't makesense.
The patterns aren't.
No, this doesn't make sense.
So I start digging and I meanyou guys don't always have a lot
of time to dig to figure out ifthat is actually what it was.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Can I interject here?
Yeah, go ahead.
The no investigator was calledon that one.
It was just the first in-enginecompany, remember.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Are you sure?

Speaker 2 (24:34):
That's what you had told me after we read the report
that the first in-engine didn'talert the investigator because
he thought it was electrical.

Speaker 3 (24:40):
I don't remember that much.
Yeah, that's the case.
I was just so excited, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
So oftentimes if an engine company goes and they
think it's electrical, there maybe no need for the investigator
to come out.
Yeah, that's right, so that wasthe case, yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
So like, for example, if they called Scott and was
like we think it's this then hewouldn't have to go out there.
So I guess that's what happenedon this one.
I don't remember that part.
But so I'm digging through thedebris and I found this like the
window had broken and there's aperfect piece of window glass
on the floor that had protectedthe carpet, which means the

(25:15):
window had broken early in thefire, and I sent him a picture
of it.
I was like, oh my God.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
I never would have thought to look for that.
This is how nerdy he is.
I sort of drive my wife crazy.
No, I mean it's excellent, it'srad, so I think I was teaching
a class.
She sends me this picture of adirty floor and then she I can
see the glass.
And she shows me with the glass.
I'm like, okay, tell me whatthat means.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
He didn't respond fast enough.
I called him.
I was like hello, Look at this.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
She's like well, okay , I'm like I know what that
means.
What do you think it means?
She's like that means thewindow broke before the fire.
So I'm like, yeah, me too, Iagree with you, that's great
yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
So okay, so the fire patterns like are clearly going
to the breaker box, but therewas some arcing in the area.
So I'm like deciding and I keepdigging and I find three
perfect Molotov cocktail tipsreally in the debris tips of
them, and then I'm finding theremnants of the beer bottles and

(26:10):
stuff and I was like, oh mygosh, and so I call him and he
kind of like helps walk methrough it because I had never
had that instance happen to,where I needed to give it back
to someone but nobody called me.
So I still have the evidence tothis day and I'm going to keep
it until, you know, the fiveyears is up and I'm going to put
it in a shadow box.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
That's pretty good to say.
That's excellent Coming from afirefighter perspective, right.
I never would have thought to.
Even I would see glass aroundme or whatever.
You know, I'm not thinking thatway at all.
I'm not trained to think thatway.
I mean, that's ingenious to me.
I was like that's funny.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Well, in your defense , though, they couldn't have
seen that until they dug for alittle bit, because all the
debris had fallen down.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
So yeah, I got to ask you guys.
I don't know how deep it'sgoing to go, but I feel like
it's kind of interesting beingin that side of the community
for fire investigation but overthe last like year and a half
and this could be a more normalthing, but I've seemed to have
seen a lot more stuff whenthey're talking about these
massive like agricultural fireswhere they have like these big

(27:18):
you know whether they're grainindustry or you know like I
think one of them was like anegg factory, anyways, they're
having these huge fires andthese like big like businesses
like this for like agriculturalfood processing things like that
.
Is there like From your guysend, you know?
I would imagine like hot topicTuesday, you know, or whatever
websites you subscribe to andthings like that.

(27:39):
Don't tell me that doesn'texist, I know for hot topic.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Wednesday, but you're close.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
Wednesday.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
I have no idea really.

Speaker 4 (27:47):
There's not a thing for the well on the suppression
side.
There's, you know, just they're.
They're training aids, or isall this, you know.
But just if there's anyconsistencies with problems you
know this is like nationwidethat will receive some kind of
information on it, whether it's,you know, it's like traffic
collisions or Highway safety, oryou know what I mean, just like

(28:08):
it could be obscure or it couldbe very general, but it's just
it's happening a lot.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
I would say that's LinkedIn for us Like.
I see a lot of stuff onLinkedIn.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
Well, I would say it's IWI sends out a Periodical
called fire and arsoninvestigator and they'll
anything nationwide orinternationally known like
spontaneous combustion of hay,or whatever yeah they'll have an
article.
So you're like, oh, what's thescience behind that?
National Association of fireinvestigators?
And then currently I'm the vicepresident of California

(28:36):
Conference of arsoninvestigators.
That's a lot.
I do training every six monthsand it's.
We have live burns and so we'llgo through.
What are some of the hot topicsare trending, like right now
and you guys know, last, so thelast February of last year, of

(28:57):
this year, I did a whole thingon lithium-ion battery fires
because we're in the departmentwe're working for almost once a
day, oh really, we're getting alithium-ion battery fire.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
I believe that I know it's been a huge problem FDN.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Why that's been a big , big problem my last few
investigations, a lot of them,I'd say, out of the last 20, it
has to be like at least 10 to 12of them were lithium-ion
batteries.
It was.
It's insane.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
We're getting a lot of them and now people are
getting sorry.
People are getting socomfortable with them that the
last fire had, which is, I thinkit was like 48 hours ago
they're starting to take themapart and try and put them
together or fix them themselvesand the guy.
This is a statement.
He's like yeah, my e-bike.
My e-bike went bad, so I triedto put the batteries together.
And he goes.

(29:41):
I saw one row go off and thenext row go off and it burnt my
couch and the sprinklers came on.
But now we're starting to messwith them and I don't even think
we fully understand them, rightnow.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
So, yeah, the general public should not be messing
with those batteries.
Well, they're so.
I mean, even when they burn off, they're so dangerous.
That smoke is so bad for you,as we know.
Yeah, I mean, we've retiredpeople, unfortunately it's sad,
that's, that's true.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
I mean, we're thinking the fire element, but
the exposure to that smoke, oh,it's so bad, yeah, so bad and
just for people that aren't youknow that maybe aren't in the
fire industry the lithium-ionthey could range from, like
lithium-ion small batteries tomassive car batteries.
He says charge the e-sig or youknow, like the e-bikes is big as
a popular one, because mostpeople To bring the e-bike into

(30:26):
the house and I've been onhandful of these fires.
So it's like you know and it'slike well, where to start and
you know they'll just havemultiple Rechargeable batteries,
like in the room right next toa pile of clothes and like all
this stuff, and it's like IWould say it's a safe statement
that most people take thatsafety for granted Until
something like this happens.

(30:46):
But the problem is that one, ifit gets big enough, or if it's
a large enough battery pack,it's very difficult to put out
and you know there's tons ofexamples with that, with like
even the cars, like Tesla's andnot the name drop that company.
But you know, I mean just aproblem for our side of it of
one making it safe for thepeople around and to being able
to extinguish the problem.
You know so it's just kind ofthis quandary of issues.

(31:09):
How's my 75 cent word Quandary?
I think yeah, but you know soit's just one of those things.
It's like Hopefully it getsbetter.
But the one thing that I thinkis consistent is that you know,
outsource marketing and More andmore things are gonna have that

(31:30):
.
It's like they're notIntrinsically built to the tee.
You know they're gettingshipped over from pick a country
and you know it just doesn'tyou know.
And then it happens.
And then they go and you plugthem in.
You think, oh, they're good andthey've been sitting on the
charger for three days, or theydon't cycle them correctly.

Speaker 3 (31:47):
And you know, it's just, it's a problem that's
gonna keep, I think, happeningand it's just like a ton of
little things too, like usingAnother charger for that thing
just because it fits.
That can cause it or so, ifyou're if you're dropping things
like people just don't Realizehow dangerous they really are
until it happens to them, andthen it's like because we see

(32:08):
that stuff every day.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Well, here's something I learned.
So when I did that lithium ionclass, we did a live burn with
it, we had them fail right, andATF had just come out with a
really good study and theyshowed video of it and they'd
show that once the batterybecause we have two types of
lithium ion batteries right, wehave the flat ones, the pouch
ones that are in our phones, andthen we have the cylindrical
ones that we have in our drills,or the a Tesla model car will

(32:29):
use, and so those cylindricalones one side will blow out.
Well, now it's a rocket, right.
Oh, wow.
So they'll go 60 to 100 feet.
What's?
Yeah, they'll fly across a roomand ATF has a really good Video
of that.
So I told we burnt one.
I'm like, hey guys, you got tostand back like 60 feet.
Sure enough, someone got alittle closer, flew and hit him
in the leg.
It's like I'm like dude, I toldyou 60 feet, bro.

(32:51):
Like what are you doing?

Speaker 1 (32:53):
But yeah, what.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
I learned is that NFPA is currently writing a
Document, yeah, about this, andit's changing so much that
they're having a hard timekeeping up and getting a
document.
But one of the guys on theretold me he goes, scottie goes.
Here's what we're learning likewhen they make these
lithium-ion batteries there's ana grade and then there's like a
B grade.
So your higher-end companieslike Milwaukee do all those ones

(33:16):
.
They tend to buy the a gradeand they have these chargers
that are they're fit for it,they have safety cutoffs and all
it's all high-end stuff.
And Well, do you think theyjust sit there and hold the B
grade batteries?
No, some company will buy the Bgrade batteries and then you
can buy them on a popularwebsite somewhere for at a very

(33:37):
discounted rate, and it doesn'tnecessarily they're bad, but
there don't have all thebuilt-in safety features.
And what I learned is one of thethings that makes a lithium-ion
battery fail Is when it goes tozero.
I didn't know, I didn't either,so only some of them, though.
Yeah, when our drills and stuffgo, they say it's out, there's
still some battery life in therewith the intent that you're

(33:58):
gonna charge it and then bringit back up.
Well, these other manufacturersthat don't have the built-in
things don't, they will go tozero and that's a fail point.
I never knew that till I took.
So it's just crazy all thestuff out there.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
That's interesting.
Yeah, we could talk on and onabout lithium-ion batteries.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
This is its own show.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
I mean by the way you can go on lithium forever.
Yeah, all I know is like whenwe get them.
I luckily I just drive now, butI try to stay away like even
though my crew it's like dude,this is gonna be a lithium-ion
battery like it stay upwinduphill.
Let's freakin take a step backand take our time and figure out
, unless, of course, there's alife safety issue.
But, it's like again we've hadto retire people who had some

(34:39):
years left to work that.
Now they're done because, ittook in that smoke.
It's like is it worth it?
That's why I always think, man,I'm like dang dude, why?

Speaker 2 (34:47):
well, let's talk about life safety and batteries,
because, let's say, someone wascharging a vehicle.
Mm-hmm and the plug was not theright.
In every one of these they saydon't use an extension cord,
right?
If?
You're charging over and you goin and you fight fire and the
ceiling falls on you.
What Did that happen to someonein this room?

Speaker 1 (35:06):
it.
Yeah, it completely knocked meout.
I was gone.
The ceiling collapse.
Yeah, it felt it was a vaultedceiling too.
Yeah, it was a bit like thewhole drywall had come in.
I, I don't remember anything.
It knocked him out, dude.
I was it cold, clocked me andmind you like I was still
healing from a TBI from like twoyears prior.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
Oh, my car accident.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
The short, long story short, you know.
I'm like, hey, cool, I'mdriving pumping and I don't need
to be inside.
Like well, we have twoprobationary fire fighters.
I'm gonna go in.
My captain had division.
We're in the second floor and Iremember I stepped into the
master bedroom it's vaulted, wassuper high, like what, 12 feet
or something right and I see thefirefighters.
They're doing her thing and Ialways try to get pictures of
them.
So they have to further, youknow, to look back on or

(35:49):
whatever.
So I remember pulling my phoneout to the cold pictures, put it
away, done, that's, that's it.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
You know, I don't remember anything.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, and I wake up, my dudes are pulling me out.
I remember, I remember kind ofcoming to and feeling people
tugging on me and I heard made a, made a, made a firefighter
down.
I was thinking what idiot, comeon, who's doing the made a
right?
And then I was like, come to,like oh man, that's me.
And so they started dragging meout.

(36:15):
And then, once they weredragging me, I really came to
and I was.
My first thought was Scott's gotsome big fun yeah somebody's
gonna get this on film maybe,and dragged out of a building.
I'll never live it down.
So I popped up and I just saidwhat happened, what's going on.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
They're just like, yeah, the ceiling roof came in
your.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
whatever I was like, alright, I ended up just walking
down the stairs.
They rung my bell hard.
I had a pretty good concussionwait.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
So okay, I'm confused .
It only came down on weren'tthere other people?

Speaker 1 (36:42):
there was a captain there, but when it fell, I guess
I took the brunt of it and itknocked him to the side.
Oh, so it.
We were like on opposite sidesof the room.
All of it came down and he waslike pinned up against the wall.
Oh he said he was calling formy name, didn't, and they just
saw my boot sticking out orwhatever.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
So that's terrifying.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Do, oh yeah, but it's like drywall falling from that
high and whatever.
Remember whatever else came.
I never really saw what elsecame in, but like it, it
freaking it flattened me.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Yeah, I'd See.
I don't want any part of that,I just don't want to be and T.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
I'll say this I've been tagged by a lot of drywall
like yeah, and when you know,when you're not red, you know
whether it's dry or it's likewaterlogged.
Either way it's not comfortable.
But when you don't know, it'scoming, I Can only imagine
because, like I've been lucky,I've been knocked down a couple
times, but like it hit me, likeI pushed me forward, not like
straight down on my head, youknow, and you're just like, oh

(37:38):
shit, is anyone looking?
You know I mean, like I got toget up.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, let's talk that drywall.
So it came from the ceiling.
So we know it's 5, 8, which is,I know, that's some the geek,
my man.
Yeah so you pick one of thoseup.
That's very heavy.
Now get some distance 12 feetto your head, which is about
five feet, I'll tell you.
But that's getting some inertia.
Yeah, that's gonna clean yourclock, it's gonna.
It is gonna knock you down.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, I was and the cause of that fire was a
electric vehicle being charged.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Oh, is that what it was?
Wow, he used an extension cordand so he, because he has 240
outlet, was inside a laundryroom and so it caused a fire
inside the concealed space inthe wall, traveled up the wall,
started getting into the attic.
Oh, wow, and so that's why itwe can that it came down.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Okay, see, that was ADHD.
Right there is.
I Was wondering how it wasgonna come back to the Tesla,
because I didn't say, I didn'tsay Tesla, I said an electric
vehicle used, we did, we did.
Actually we can cut that up,but um, no, it started with that
.
But then you said and youpointed at him and then he just
started with the story aboutdrywall coming down on his head
and I was like whoa wait, howdid this?

Speaker 1 (38:44):
he's good at the full circle.
Literally been sitting herewaiting for the circle around
well, scott, you actuallybrought a pretty good point and
it was about doinginvestigations where people lose
their homes or someone's burnedor killed.
I think a lot of people don'tunderstand the different Areas

(39:05):
of the fire service that peoplecan get into and do, whether
it's inspections, fireinvestigating or if you want to
be in suppression side right,you can go through firefighter,
engineer, promote all the way up.
But I think a lot of peopledon't understand the importance
of fire investigation because Ifmy parents house were to catch
on fire or something happenedand when we're going to pass
away, I would want to know whatthe heck happened, what's going

(39:26):
on?
It was it arson?
Was it an accident?
Is it something fail in thehouse?
So, like the importance of ourfire investigators, private
public getting the education andmaking sure you know your job,
because I'm sure they're also,just like in any job, five
investigators who aren't thatgood at their job.

Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I would say you know you've got A, b and C.
People have passed the testright.
But here's what I'll tell youabout that.
I've been very fortunate toteach up and down the coast of
California now for about 10years.
But 13 years, I'm getting oldand all these investigators,

(40:08):
they want to do a very good job,like they're into it for the
right reasons.
They want to do it.
They've got that inquisitive.
You can see them.
They're like how did this start?
I want to know.
And if they're taught right howto break down a problem, how to
use a scientific method, how togo through the process, and
they're shown right, then theyusually do a good job because

(40:28):
they're taught the right way andthey want to do a good job,
they want it.
But if they're not taught rightand that there's kind of I'll
just say this or something, thenthey and they don't have that
training.
They're frustrated and youdon't get.
So it's not their dedication, Ithink it's their level of
training.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
It's definitely who taught them and how they're
taught, for sure.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Because you can't get into this work and be late.
I mean.
So you know, every call I go onif the captain doesn't take it.
I'm writing a six to 10 pagereport, and so you know.

Speaker 4 (40:57):
And what do?

Speaker 2 (40:57):
we we all went into the fire service, right?
No, no, not you.

Speaker 4 (41:02):
Yours is one paragraph.
Okay, cool, Because that'swhere it's we need to talk after
this.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
But if I take it from you it's a six to eight page
report because I'm held as sucha bigger standard of what I have
to document and show that I did.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
Okay, so that makes total sense Because there's a
you have to.
I'm sure you learned about thisin college.
I know you know, but I can'tremember his name.
He worked for Glendale Fire,John Orr.

Speaker 3 (41:26):
John Orr yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
In the nineties?
Right, was it the nineties?
Yeah, the best, because.
I thought about John Orr, when,when, because Jordan was
talking about, hey, hot topics,right, because I remember
watching a documentary and theycouldn't figure out, like, where
are all these huge fires comingfrom, and how are we getting
such a good video?
What's going on here?
And long behold, it was a firevisecater and this guy was
teaching, allegedly yeah,allegedly Can nitty come out of

(41:51):
the woods with a cigarette buttand you'd be,

Speaker 4 (41:53):
like this was it I got it, you're not wrong.
No, I know I read the.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
You are not, so the funny thing about that is and I
say this this is not to say likefire, visecators are bad, but
that's one that stuck out to mewhere it's like they couldn't
figure out and long.
Behold this dude who's gotgreat video.
He's always figuring out.
He saw it after he's teaching.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
Right, cause he was very prestigious in the field,
right?
Is that where it led to he had?

Speaker 3 (42:14):
created himself as a prestigious person because of he
was starting it.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
And then, so you want to be good but don't be too
good.
People are going to start to belike God.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Well, if you can walk into a brush fire and walk
right to your area of origin andfind the thing I mean that
quick, honestly guys that'shours of dig out and trying to
exactly find out where you're soin in the wildland world.
You have a general area oforigin and then from there you
find a specific origin area.
That takes a while, and then, tofind what started within there

(42:49):
takes.
So if you're just walking upand you're like that's kind of a
clue, Something's going on here, but that's right.
So the the I'm associated withCalifornia Conference of Arts
and Investigators and so JohnOrr would go to that and he was
pretty prestigious in thatbecause he was able to find the
source of the fire prettyrapidly and consistently.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, Like this is great.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
You know we have a lot of undetermined.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
So, and that's not a bad thing that just means I
don't have enough information atthis time.
Yeah, so he would go to a lotof our trainings, and at that
time they were held in Fresno,and so he would start fires in
Fresno.
He was at the conference,that's crazy.
Yeah, but you know he's in jailnow and he's in communication
with some of our board membersand he wants to speak and say

(43:32):
why he's innocent, by the way.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Really Wow, so we're not really entertaining that.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
We don't want to give him a platform.
But, yeah, I mean, that's a.
I'm surprised you knew that, ohyeah.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
It stuck out to me.
I remember it was somedocumentary.
I don't know where I watched it, but it stuck out to me a lot
because the videos were so good.
Yeah, there's really good video, but they were.
He was videoing.
It was coming from him, Ibelieve.
I think on some of them.
I don't know that.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
I can't remember, I've never seen a documentary.
You know I've listened to thepodcast.
I'm not seeing the documentary.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
Could the videos would show like it would be
after the fire gets going and hewould happen to be in the area
and videotaping it.
So it'd be like.
But this is like more than thestart, Like this thing is
ripping and you know, and thenit'd be like he would be the
investigator, and then it wouldtake a very short amount of time
for him to find it.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Well, I mean not to mention the in-depth book he
wrote about.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
all of it Like but, he's innocent, he was just
slumped at it.
No, he actually wrote.
He wrote a book and it detailedeverything he did, but he was
naming it something else.
And then another weird thing isthat the treasure that I
currently work with, dennis, washis partner.
Oh, wow, yeah, I told him.
I'm like look, dennis, I wouldlove to get you on stage or on a

(44:46):
podcast.
We need to capture yourexperience with him.
He's a really cool guy.
He's a little older than me bya lot and he's a super cool dude
, but he's like, yeah, he's mypart, but he doesn't really ever
like talk about it.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
I mean, it's, it's it's a control that you know
what I mean.
Like, well, it's a black markon the fire service, right?
I mean I'm sure theinvestigation world took a huge
hit after it came out and he wasconvicted, right, you have to
know.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
Maybe I mean, once again, I got in in 99.
So, yeah, but that didn'treally reflect what we were
about.
But anytime, I mean, look, theonly thing we have is the public
trust, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know what agencies youwork for and what you work for
and I know the agency we camefrom.
We never wanted to break thatpublic trust.

(45:32):
I mean, we had a love affairwith our citizens, with our
council, and we love to protectour citizens there, and it was a
hard choice for us to leave,but we knew that we could not
protect the citizens the waythey needed to be after a while,
and so transitioning over to abigger department was better for
us.
And I think we still are guysand I'm not saying the other

(45:54):
inch done, but I know from youguys I think we still bring that
forward to the people that weserve.
Yeah, I mean, I still lovegoing on calls and working with
our citizens and I make surethey have a blanket.
I just love that, Because whatif that was my mom, dad, or if
you were on duty and it was yourfamily?
I want to make sure they'retaken care of your kids.

(46:14):
That were warned through wife.
I mean, that's just yeah.
So did we take a hit?
Maybe more from otherfirefighters?

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, right, Like, oh yeah, would you just start it,
Right yeah yeah, I just rememberthat John Orton thing stuck out
to me so much I was like dude,what Our own one of our own does
doing that, that's crazy dude,it definitely hurt.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Well, it happens to be crazy people.
Yeah, every field, I mean anyindustry.
You know it's going to be thatway.
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
It is what it is Got a unique story.
Now you two.
Maybe we could talk about this,but aren't you starting your
own company, getting privatecompany doing investigations?

Speaker 2 (46:47):
No, no, she's currently working for a private
and then I'm still with public.
We've talked about it, but it'sprobably something out in the
future.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
To be determined.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah, I mean just because we enjoy working with
each other and we're alwaysconsulting back and forth, yeah,
but I mean this year, like Isaid, so currently on VP, I'll
be president this year.
Oh, whoa, what the heck.
So the big, the big,interesting thing, and I don't
think we need to step our game.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Yeah, I'm in of the United States.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Honestly vote for you .
Done for California Conferenceof Arts Investigator.
Big, big honor.
I love bringing the training,but the bigger thing and you
know this is that I'll be goingto Cambodia in February.
Dude, huge, that's huge.
Yes, so the government has.
So there's a nonprofit calledLove in Action and they work
closely with the Cambodiangovernment and they've been

(47:42):
working with them for 12 years,specifically been working in the
Southeast for about 27 years,and the government wants their
number.
One ask from their firedepartment is they want an arts
and investigation program andthen they'll want like heavy
rescue training, things likethat.
So they reached out tofirefighters for Christ and then
they sent a mass email out.
It landed on my desk in mydepartment.

(48:03):
So me, and there's a officerembedded in our section and we
teach all around California.
So it said we're looking for twoinvestigators with law
enforcement experience, blah,blah, blah.
So I just went into his roomand I'm like, hey, dude, I'm
like if this doesn't cry out toyou like, this is what we do, we
love it, and so we're gonna.
It's a volunteer, so we'regonna pair away out there.

(48:24):
We're gonna go out there forabout 10 days.
We're setting up a curriculumnow, but what a cool opportunity
we're.
Fire investigations can take meacross the world, right right
to help out, and I mean I'm justlike, how cool is this?

Speaker 4 (48:36):
Well, what's cool, awesome.
Well, one congratulations, yeah.
Two, like what a you're likeeverything that you said.
What a unique opportunity it isto go do that and it's in a
field that you love and you'reclearly passionate about it.
And now you know you'rebasically writing the program
that this organizations orpeople are going to be
interpreting in their field.
So that's it's like an honorand got to be pretty stoked, you

(49:00):
know.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yeah, I mean it's just cool and I hope that we can
foster relationship with ourdepartment so that more
specialties we have can beshared with, because they really
want to do well.
So it's just a.
It's just a cool thing.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Well, it's cool because you're, you've got
plenty of time on here and thereality is right.
We're our work and what we dois serving people.
You know, we probably won'tknow until the day we die the
amount of lives that we'veaffected.
Right, help save, whatever itmay be, and they can go on and
help other people and changelives.
But to be able to take that andnow go to a different country
and start something there, youdon't know what's going to

(49:36):
happen with those investigatorsand fires they solve and lives
they affect, I mean it's thatripple effect that we talk about
on here all the time.
Right, you throw that rock inthe lake, right, boom, it hits
and just keeps rippling out.
I mean it's huge.
That's that's you're givingback in so many different ways,
so that's.
I think that's pretty powerful.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
It's pretty right on and the fact that they asked for
it, so you know they want it,yeah, and even though they're
not going to speak the samelanguage, so we're going to have
to work through that.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
That was my next question I was like what do they
speak in Canada?

Speaker 2 (50:01):
They're assigning us both my partner Justin Russell
and I interpreters, but so I wastelling them like, yeah, so
what I like to do at the end ofthe class, I like to burn, burn,
build the burn cells.
And they're like, okay, what doyou need?
I'm like I need this muchlumber.
I need 12 pieces of drywall perburn cell.
And they're like, yeah, I don't.
I don't know if they havedrywall out there, so it's.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
so I don't know what I'm walking into, so people know
and can understand what you'resaying.
What's a burn cell?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
So to demonstrate certain types of fires, fire
development, growth, thedynamics, you'll spend a week
learning through the eyes of aninvestigator not through
suppression how it's going,what's what, what fire effects
is it leaving all this stuff?
And at the end of the class,let's say, jordan and Tim, you
guys are taking the class, yourgroup one, your group two,

(50:52):
jordan you'll go out, you'llhave a burn cell and basically
it's an eight foot by eight footdeep, deep and maybe 12 feet
wide and I put furniture andcarpet and drywall in there and
then I let Jordan and his groupyou burn it wherever you want.
I make you predict the burnpattern.
Where you think it's gonna do.
You're gonna spray paint on thewall and then you burn it and

(51:13):
then we watch it develop andthen we see if you're right and
I film it.
And then you leave and go tolunch and then I tell him you
guys come, you do the burn salenext to it.
You do the whole thing.
You go to lunch.
I come back, jordan, you'regonna go investigate Tim's burn
sale.
You're gonna go do Jordan'sburn sale and then you have to
write a report on where youthink it started At the end of
the class I share the videos andyou're either right or wrong,

(51:34):
and usually you're right.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
So yeah, oh, that's right, okay, that's what it was
about.
So the burn sale it looks likea living room or a bedroom or
something.
Right, You're staging.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
It's just missing the one wall so that you can watch
the fire development.
Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
That's a good way to learn man, that's smart.
Is that something you createdor that's kind of been part of
the process for allinvestigators?

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Yeah, I did it at ATF .
I learned it at the NationalFire Academy.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
Oh, we did it in school, but I don't know who
started it though.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, I don't know where it came from.
That's pretty rad, that's smart, that's awesome.
Now your curriculum forCambodia.
You're gonna have to write allthat.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
So no, california has a curriculum based on a
document that's called.
It's called NFPA 1033.
It's the standard to be a fireinvestigator.
So since it's NFPA, which meansnational fire, I don't know if
Cambodia accepts that or not, Idon't even know if they have
building codes, but I helped thestate of me and 14 other people

(52:30):
.
We wrote the curriculum basedaround that document, and so it
comes to three classes, threefour-door classes.
So when you're done, you've metevery one of the job
performance requirements to bean investigator anywhere in the
nation.
So I'm gonna take that and tryand adapt it and thin it out
because, they don't speakEnglish.

(52:50):
It's a little bit of a what.
We'll see how it comes out.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
I'm sure.
Well, yeah, I mean, just likewith anything, the unknown in
this is a lot more.
And not the information you'rebringing, but your delivery to
this group of people because youdon't know, are they like day
one people?
Are they?
I've been told they're day onepeople?
Okay, so just someone who maybehas the interest of it, which
is also great.
Depending on the translatorsand your ability through the,

(53:15):
you know what I mean.
Like, either way, it's a greatthing and to have that.
If they are really trying topush for a better program via
their fire department, then thisis a key component of it.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
Yeah, I really have an American sense of humor so
I'm really nervous Like you havethat snarky, sarcastic kind of
like you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
He really feeds off the crowd with, like his jokes
at the end.
So he's gonna be like do theythink I'm funny?

Speaker 4 (53:39):
Well, you're a people person dude.
Google best Cambodian jokes.
Learn like a short one, like aone-liner.
Learn that, open the class withthat.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
I wonder what?
What is their language?
Do you know?

Speaker 2 (53:51):
How about, like that's what she said in Cambodia
.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
No, dude, think they'll get that.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
They might.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
That's gotta translate to everyone right, I
would say that's a safe one,Michael.

Speaker 3 (53:58):
Scott and I would laugh.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yeah, Michael Scott is my favorite, Well since you,
since you're, you know you'reable to get involved with
Cambodia Now being this might bedifferent from private to
public side but say there's somemajor fire, that's you know, in
Florida, and they're like, hey,we, we need someone who's got
good expertise.
Can they actually call both ofyou out to go out there?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
No.
So who would cover that wouldbe ATF and they'll have an NR
team, the national response team, and in our section, for the
department we work for, we havean ATF.
He has the dog and so he can becalled out at any time and
respond anywhere in the nationand probably even outside the
nation.
I don't know what theircontract is oh, I didn't know
that.
And you'll be gone for 14 days.
And they are amazing.

(54:40):
They come in, they doeverything and then, when
they're done, they give you a CDof everything they did Nice,
clean forms and all the toolsthey bought.
They leave them.
They're like this is for yourdepartment.
We don't want to take it back.
Yeah, they're amazing.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
So on the private side, if you have a company that
likes you and wants you to goto other states for them, you
can if your company's licensedin those states.
And then I've knowninvestigators that have went
international as well.

Speaker 1 (55:05):
So how does that look for you then, on the private
side, like Scott was saying, ifthe person that works for ATF
has a dog, they go for two weeks.
Is that the same for you, or isit when the job's done?

Speaker 3 (55:13):
It's when the job's done.
So I went to Hawaii.
That's a good example, Toughlife.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
It was so bad.

Speaker 3 (55:21):
It was terrible, but we were just there for three
days, I think, for the job, andthen it was done.
But if it would have came backto a joint exam then I would
have had to go back out therelike that whole thing.

Speaker 4 (55:33):
But it's not as extensive as Like recently, like
in Maui.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
Like two years ago.
No, it wasn't Maui.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
I was like I don't know what you're allowed to talk
about, but if you could talkabout any of it, then we're
gonna go.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Yeah, that would have been really cool.
How come nothing blue burned?
Yeah, Gosh, I know, did youdetermine?

Speaker 2 (55:48):
the laser in the sky.

Speaker 3 (55:49):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
It's good to speak.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
No I went to Lanai oh okay.
Yeah, it's next to Maui, butOkay, that's cool, I mean.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
and so with the private side of it, it seems
more like the reason there wouldbe a private side of it right
is like working like I'massuming it's through we don't
name anything specific but likeinsurance companies things like
that right that need to take afurther in-depth look because
I'm assuming, outside of notsaying a house isn't worth a lot

(56:18):
, but you start getting thesecommercial buildings, big
businesses and stuff that kindof bring me back to the
agricultural thing earlier.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
Oh, I forgot.
You never answered any of that,by the way.
I forgot about that, just wentout there.

Speaker 4 (56:29):
But you know, is that that's kind of the premise of.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
So for the most part it's.
I mean even with residential.
They just want their money backif they can, so subrogation
comes into that.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Explain subrogation to Big words.
That's what I'm about toexplain.
That's a dollar.
That's a dollar.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Fifty word A dollar fifty, sorry, so subrogation.
So technically, basically, theinsurance company wants to go
after anyone they can to gettheir money back.
So like, say, a lamp failed andwe know that that lamp failed
and started the fire, then theywould put that manufacturer on
notice and then we'd have ajoint exam and they would argue

(57:06):
whether or not it was amanufacturing error and then the
insurance company would gettheir money from that
manufacturer if they won.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
Oh, okay, so, yeah, so that.
Oh, I didn't know that.
I mean, I don't know, thatseems very stressful.
Yeah, it's like.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
So the insurance company will make you whole.
So, jordan, you get a fire,whatever terms you've agreed, or
insurance you buy.
Insurance can be like, okay,you had a fire, I'm gonna make
you whole, based on whatever youbought.
The insurance company has theability to go after someone who
started the fire, so let's sayit was a lamp.
Then they're like, look, we'rejust gonna pay you out, but it's
not your fault and it's not ourfault, the insurance company.

(57:43):
So we're gonna try and go andget our money back, or at least
part of it, to keep ourinsurance rates low.
Keep that, I see.
So it's called subrogation.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Yeah, so that's why we go way more in-depth with our
investigations on the privateside, because we're eliminating
all possible causes within anarea of origin and you have to
really be able to eliminate them.
Or they're coming to a lab andwe're figuring it out that way
with, like an electricalengineer or something like that.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
You guys got a lot of brain power.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
I'm like I don't wanna go through any of that.
Just push buttons and read thescreen.

Speaker 1 (58:16):
Hey, where am I going ?
Where's my water?

Speaker 4 (58:17):
supply.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
That's not a care about.
Make a laugh, that beer?
Yeah, well, one last thing Iwould do.
Wanna ask you so in the fireinvestigation world, after
everything both of you have toldus, it's very in-depth, it does
take brain power and you bothof you are very skilled at what
you do what is like the moststressful part and toughest part
of being an investigator?

Speaker 3 (58:36):
I'll let you take that one first.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
From the public side.
So obviously the criminality ofit, and then making sure that
it is arson and we never, everwanna put someone in jail, take
away someone's civil liberties.
That didn't start a fire.
So you're always constantlyrunning through your scientific

(59:00):
method did I eliminate this, didI eliminate that?
And then, once you're sure, andthen you find out, okay, I did
good.
So the biggest fear is youdon't ever want to take away
someone's civil libertiesincorrectly.
And the more we're trained, thebetter we are at this.
I do work closely with anattorney from the Innocence
Project who she doespost-convictions.

(59:21):
So let's say, tim, you getarrested for arson but it was a
faulty science or maybe itwasn't done right.
She would come in afterwardsand take your case and show how
it wasn't done correctly.
So, working with the InnocenceProject and seeing how some of
these cases weren't correctlydone, basically because we

(59:41):
weren't trained correctly orthere was some bad science
applied, you learn those things.
But and the other thing andhonestly that's hard is now that
I'm a little older, anythingany call after eight o'clock At
night, so I'm right there withyou now, oh man.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
I'm so stressed bro.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Oh yeah Bro, it's rough.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
So stressful.

Speaker 4 (01:00:01):
Were you guys fans of the show CSI?

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
I mean, I've watched it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:06):
Okay, but that wasn't like maybe more so, because you
were already in the biz priorto, but I have curiosity of what
intrigued that.
You know the movement I onlytalked about, you know when you
were in college, to make themove towards investigation, or
arson investigation or no fireinvestigation.
Thank you very much.
I was just actually, I was justtrying to be funny, but what

(01:00:27):
was?

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
it.
How's that going for you?

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
buddy Honestly.
Hopefully better than that'swhat she said in Cambodia, that
would be my Cambodia.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Oh, what about for the private side?
I mean, it seems like you'vebeen traveling doing a lot, but
what's the most difficult part,being in the private sector
doing fire investigation?

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yeah, I think, just from being like empathic, it's
kind of tough seeing, if thepeople are there, how stressed
they are about everything, causethey start asking me questions
like I'm their adjuster and I'mlike I'm so I can't do anything
for you, I'm just here fororigin and cause, and that's
kind of rough.
I mean, I can like suggest thatthey reach out to Red Cross,

(01:01:02):
like stuff like that, but Ican't really do anything for
them.
So that's pretty stressful.
But other than that, I wouldsay just like not letting the
client down is kind of a littlestressful as far as, like you
know, sometimes it's absolutelyundetermined and I don't have

(01:01:22):
like the ego of like I need toget a cause.
It's not undetermined, blah,blah, blah, but sometimes the
stress coming from the client isa little stressful.
But I refuse to like pick acause just to pick a cause,
cause they want it, you knowRight right, right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
Do you guys ever get like like fraudulent statement
stuff, like a lot like whereyou're like, oh, my house burned
down.
You're like I had like 150grand in the back and it's all?
It must be gone If this issomething you're not supposed to
talk about please don't.
There's a recent one that weCause I was joke around with
like I'm like if someone stealsmy car, I'd be like oh you know,

(01:01:59):
I always carry 50 in the backof my truck.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
Well, there was a recent one we both heard about.
Like I was on on the privateside and he knows from the
public side, that was somethingkind of in that boat, If you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
if the question stopped at, do you get
fraudulent statements?

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Let's go there, you stop there.
Yes, yes daily Cause.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
I'm an investigator.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
You know, at once.

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
They cause you know, I wear that seven star badge,
and so they like, oh, you looklike a cop.
They still treat us very nice,though, cause then I had my
helmet on, so the other thingthat's really interesting is the
way we get treated.
One good story is we had somejuveniles setting off some fire,
some Christmas trees one year,and so the cops are like, hey,
we have the guy here's his house.

(01:02:40):
So we go to the house and thecops are like, yeah, this the
kid.
So I walk up with all my fire.
My, you know, we have the mediaRegalia.
Yeah, but I have the helmet andmy boots on and I'm like, hey,
dude with the fire.
He goes hey, what's up?
I'm like, hey, let me see yourphone.
So he gives me the phone, thecops looking like what?
Meanwhile this kid's still onthe cops to f off right.
And I go what's your code?
He goes did you?
I go, all right, I guess it inphotos or is it in videos?

(01:03:04):
He goes videos, which ones?
You guys on the one over there.
I'm like, all right, dude, I go.
Can you air drop to me?
I go, sure, so you get in thecops like what?
I'm like, well, you got totreat him nice.
Plus, I'm a fire guy and I'mlike hey, dude.
So, look, we have a program,it's called fire friends.
We're not going to, you know,we're going to press charge, but
we've got to correct yourbehaviors Like, okay, cool.
So it's just, we are treateddifferent and we never want to

(01:03:24):
lose that Right, we never wantto lose that guys.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
The trust and respect for the public is just so
important.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
We get the five finger wave and the cops get the
one.
Oh my God, no yeah, and I feelbad for them because they're all
super good, but it's just theway it is right now.
Oh, I'm sorry, man.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Wait, you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
There's bad ones in every field.
There's bad firing mosquitoes,there's bad firefighters,
there's bad police.

Speaker 4 (01:03:47):
What are you talking about?

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
There's bad everywhere.

Speaker 4 (01:03:51):
John Orr was a fluke, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
Yeah yeah, we're all amazing man, but both of you
guys thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.
Honestly, it's great to haveboth of you on here and talking
about fire investigations,because that's such a unsung.
Heroes of the fire service.
Let's be real, People don'treally understand that part.
They see us in the shiny redengines riding around right.
So what you do is so importantin the education, the time and,
Scott, you've been doing it forso long Like my man.

(01:04:15):
Well done, my dude.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
You did a long time.
Stop saying you're so old dude,you look great.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:04:22):
I don't like.
You don't have any gray hair.

Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
I've been doing it since the 1900s, guys.
Yeah, it's just fun.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
That's a good perspective.
Fire was invented.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
Yeah, yeah, but also Scott.
So you know, like dude, it'sbeen such a cool thing to see
you promote and go through theranks and what you do in the
fire service and I've honestlyappreciated you through the
entire career, man.
You've inspired me in manydifferent ways and you've
encouraged me in many differentways to be who I am.
So I always want to tell youthat.
I just want you to know, dude,like well done my dude.
Yeah, thanks, appreciate you.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
Yeah, congrats, yeah, congrats on everything and yeah
, just, I think the cool partabout this too is, like for
anyone who's listening that doeshave interest in the fire
service like suppression isn'tthe only thing.
You know Like there's avenues ofcirculating around whatever
interest may be, because thereare people that can't be
firefighters, like in that wayon the suppression side, but it

(01:05:12):
doesn't mean you're hindered bythat.
You know, and you know a verygood example of coming from the
private side.
You know getting the educationexperience and now you're
crushing it and that's fantastic.
Hopefully you guys worksomething out after you know
you're done with your career atthe moment.
But yeah, and congratulationson the Cambodia thing, man, best
of luck.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Yeah, can't wait to hear about how we're doing.
Maybe I'll come back and we canshare.
No, you should talk about it, Ithink it'd be a great thing.
I'll bring some.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
That'd be a six-story .
Maybe we can hold it up orsomething.
This is me here.
I was right here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
So here I am eating fried banana, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
No, that would be.
Honestly, it'd be really coolto have you back up once that's
done and wrapped up and justtalk about it, because that's
going to be a heck of anexperience.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
Maybe I'll bring Justin with me, if you don't
mind.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Yeah, that would be a really good one.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
Yeah, yeah it's both of you.
Welcome on here any time it wasa pleasure to have you both on
here.
We usually do a.
Let's go on three.
And, by the way, before we dothis, I do have challenge coins
for both of you.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
I don't forget to give you a challenge coin holder
.
I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Yes, I got to give you.
We give that only to our guests, so see them out there.
It's because I've been on thepodcast.
Anyways, let's go on three.
You guys ready, let's do it.
One, two, three, let's go.
Bye everybody.
Thank you so much for listeningin.
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(01:06:31):
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