October 21, 2026 • 37 mins
We break down what makes an access control and fire alarm related panel build dependable when the power drops and the service calls start piling up. We share practical rules for battery backup, labeling, wire routing, ventilation, documentation, and the codes and certifications that shape life-safety work.
• planning battery backup time and enclosure space limits
• learning why repeated fire alarm faults trigger fire watch
• building cleaner panels through consistent labeling schemes
• pairing port based labels with plain English locations
• using drip loops and square routing for serviceability
• keeping wiring tidy with Velcro and smart slack
• avoiding heat problems with proper ventilation choices
• budgeting for expansion without overspending up front
• choosing machine labels and dating batteries on install
• closing projects with as builts and equipment inventories
• understanding IBC and NFPA 101 impacts on egress doors
• navigating manufacturer training plus NICET style requirements by jurisdiction
Let me know down below if you like this kind of content. Should I do more of it?
And also don't forget that we got our three CEC courses: Firestopping, Bonding and Grounding, Codes versus Standards.
https://letstalkcabling.com/learn/
Knowledge is power! Visit our webpage to find out ways you can support the show. Also if you would like to be a guest on the show, please complete the application.
Chuck Bowser RCDD TECH
#CBRCDD #RCDD
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hey editing Chuck here, working on part two of the
(00:03):
installation design series foraccess control and fire alarm
service with Mick from Trican.
I really enjoy working on thisepisode.
Let me know down below if youlike this kind of content.
Should I do more of it?
And also don't forget that wegot our three CEC courses:
Firestopping, Bonding andGrounding, Codes versus
Standards.
And we had a first class lastnight, Firestopping.
(00:26):
Had a lot of people in thatclass.
One person already mailed methis morning and said they were
able to use some of theinformation they learned last
night in their job today.
So check down in the descriptionfor that.
We'll give you the links forthat as well.
So let's get on with this veryinteresting conversation with
Mick.
(01:09):
You have to factor in the accesscontrol panel design.
Again, I've shown my naivety ofaccess control systems.
The size of the battery, theventilation of the battery, is
the battery stored inside theaccess control panel, or is it
like phone systems where it'sseparate outside of it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
So it is generally inside the access control panel,
and you will generally belimited to the size of batteries
you can fit in the space thatyou have left.
Some access control panels,people jam them so tight you can
barely squeeze a 7 amp hourbattery in them.
And some of them have such abattery requirement, they have a
(01:48):
whole separate can on their own.
That's just batteries, right?
Another enclosure completelydedicated to batteries.
It all depends on, you know,what's what's your what's your
client asking for?
Are they asking for 24 hours offull battery backup?
Um sometimes it's just fourhours, right?
They just need to be able to getthrough whatever they're getting
(02:10):
through, shut down for the restof the day, and still be able to
get in.
I think a general, at least forus, a general rule of thumb is
we try to get you 24 hours uh ofbattery backup.
Now, we there are scenarioswhere the batteries, you know,
we could have extended outages.
Um, but I would say the majorityof all outages are going to be
(02:34):
in the under 24 hour range.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, I think I would kind of agree with that
somewhat.
Um again, I know just tying backto my old fire department days,
uh, we'd run calls all the timefor you know fire alarms being
set off.
And um, and uh, you know, it wasit was almost always a uh nine
nine calls out of ten, it was aproblem with the fire alarm
(02:58):
system, right?
But you have to treat everysingle one of them as if it's an
act of fire.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
100%.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
And uh you would get there and and and you know it
you never fail because it theyit seemed like the fire alarm
systems only knowed how to failat two o'clock in the morning,
right?
And they don't they don't seemwhere to fail at two o'clock in
the afternoon for some reason.
And so so a lot of times, youknow, it would they would fail,
we'd go rushing out there, it'dbe nothing.
Of course, we still got toinspect the whole entire
(03:23):
building, but but then you know,if we get a call at like 245,
same building, same alarm, we goback out there again, again, you
know, because you don't know.
It could be something, you know,it could be burning.
And we get there, and sureenough, it'd be a fire alarm
issue.
And then we get a call at 330,same thing.
At some point, that buildinggets put on a fire watch, where
you know, they they you know,somebody from I'm assuming like
(03:47):
maybe if it was one of yoursystems, it'd be somebody from
Trican, maybe.
Um, where they come there andliterally have to babysit the
building until the right partcame to fix the fire alarm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Yep, yep.
That is the thing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
It is, yeah.
And that's where that's youknow, people talk about fire
watch, but they don't reallyknow what it means.
They you know, but there you go.
I do, I do.
So now let's shift ourconversation to the to the
technician, because uh, youknow, a great design is a great
design, but let's be let's behonest, it's the installer who
makes it serviceable, right?
(04:18):
So let's talk about the thepanel, the panel itself, because
you know, you know, I I've I Iget the feeling, and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, becauseI I you know I've I've
functioned in many differentsocial media groups, obviously.
And I'm in the fire alarm socialmedia group on Facebook, and and
I'm at and I don't even know 99%of what I'm looking at, but but
(04:41):
I will say I do get the feelingthat technicians installing
cabling in in access controlpanels and fire alarm panels are
the same kind that doingstructure cabling.
There's those who really want tomake sure everything looks nice
and pretty, and then there'sothers who just like, yeah,
whatever.
Yeah, once the door closed,can't see it from my house.
(05:03):
Right?
Um, so let's talk about thatcontrol panel and let's talk
about you know um maybe somebest practices on on how to how
to build that out.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Uh definitely I would say the number one thing I
would say building your controlpanels is your labeling.
You're labeling doors.
Uh doors tend to switch names,they tend to switch purpose.
What might have been thepresident's office today could
(05:34):
be the storage closet tomorrow.
Uh, room numbers, room numbersare sometimes lost completely,
they don't exist anymore.
You saw the change it was A102.
Nobody ever called it A102 afterthat.
So I there isn't really like theperfect way to name things, but
(05:55):
I would definitely say it has tomake sense to the people who are
in the building because they'rethe ones who are gonna open that
door up one day and try to liketell somebody what that meant.
Um, so de but label, label,label.
And I would go as far as to saywhen the banana cable comes
(06:17):
inside the can, it should belabeled.
And I use uh a numbering systemthat translate to the port that
would it was plugged into.
So I'll have the name of thecontroller, you know, CA, the
name of the board three, andthen the port dot one.
(06:38):
So when you see that cable andit says CA3 dot one, you know
exactly where it was going to.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
You don't realize this, but you're labeling almost
perfectly to the ANSI standards.
Because really what we'resupposed to do, structure
cabling labeling.
If you look at the the labelingstandard, is so you see my rack
behind me.
So the patch panel that's inrack unit 45, which is the very
top rack unit, so the cableterminal on the first port, that
should be 45-01.
(07:06):
Oh, okay.
So you're labeling, you'refollowing the 6S6 standard or
the anzi standsy labelingstandard.
You don't even know it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Didn't even know it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
That's right.
So are you labeling both ends?
So if if a if an end user, let'ssay they're looking at uh uh
kind of go back to a door therefor a second.
Is there a label on the doormechanism that says, hey, this
is you know, uh control panelthree 3A-whatever you the
whatever the sequence you gaveis, is there a label on both
sides?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
So typically no, um, because when we do our K our
cabling, we've usually peeledthe Madana, peeled the banana
already, and now we've split allthe wires out to ever wherever
they needed to go.
So there's not really one spot.
Uh, there are a few jobs where Iused to take like a small
sticker and put it on the insideof the jam of the door.
(07:55):
Um and that that held up prettywell.
Um eventually somebody's gonnapaint over it.
It's just the way it happens.
Um, so we're not too strict withthat.
Usually with new installs, we wewe try to do that.
Um, but one day somebody isgonna paint it.
I don't I don't care if it's afire rated door they weren't
(08:16):
supposed to paint it, it's gonnaget painted.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, you know, we're talkingabout the cabling, you know, 184
and 226 and and and all thatother stuff.
They're not twisted pair, so youdon't have to worry about
untwisting the pairs.
Do you have to worry about bendradiuses or is there anything
else about the cabling thatinstallers got to be careful
with inside the access controlpanel?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
No, not really.
I mean, they're all stranded, sothey they have a good bit of
flexibility to them.
Um, I would say make sure I Icall it the drip loop.
Make sure once you come into thecan, give yourself that drip
loop, go down to the bottom andcome back up and then spider out
(08:59):
to wherever you need to be onthe board.
Um, another thing I forgot whenyou do the labels, you know, you
label the cable and it goes tothe position that it's going in.
But then on the other side ofit, you have to have English.
So you have to say CA 3.1 is theprincipal's office, right?
And that's where things start toclick and come together.
(09:22):
That's where the English comesin and things make sense.
And that's such a big dealbecause you look at all these
things and they're, you know,you're looking at CA31, CA32,
CA33, and you're like, who theheck?
What the heck?
I don't know where that is.
I don't, you know, who came upwith and you, you know, you're
cursing the guy who came up withthat uh labeling standard.
(09:43):
It's it's gotta meet theEnglish, right?
That's how you really make adifference.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Until they realize that that number is the panel
and the port number.
And then by looking at the atthe user side, when you and this
is why it's written in the wayit is in the standards, because
that way when you look at thatfaceplate, in your mind as you
as you read the label, your mindis envisioning exactly where
that thing is.
So when you walk into the room,you're not, you know, you're not
(10:08):
in rack two, you're not at thebottom, because rack four unit
45 is the top, you know, youalmost know exactly where that
is before you even walk into theroom or or open up the access
control panel.
Sure.
Sure.
So yeah, it doesn't make sense.
I understand it doesn't makesense.
And in this this is one of thosehills I'll die standing on
because you know, people in theindustry that I want to label it
by the room number.
No, room numbers change.
I want to label them one, two,three, four.
(10:30):
Yeah, no.
What have they if they adddevices?
Because you know, they're nolonger in order, right?
Yeah, there's lots, yeah,there's lots of reasons to do it
the way that the standard saysdo it.
No, you're talking about thecabling.
So you say we got we got powercoming over this cabling, we got
some signal coming over thiscabling because you're talking
about the the door monitor,stuff like that.
Um, should those cables betogether or should they be
separated in the access panel?
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
Uh they can be together.
I mean, really and truly uhthey're together the whole way,
they're in the same banana,they're in the same jacket,
right?
Um, and the signaling is yeah,we have OSDP, which is a serial.
Um but it is you said you'redoing DC Current.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
Yes.
Well, DC Current doesn't have asine wave to it, so it's just
it's on.
So there's there's no EMI youhad to worry about.
It's a stupid question.
I just I answered my ownquestion just thinking about it,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Um so they could they can they can live in the
same jacket, they can be rightnext to each other, and and 99%
of the time they are right nextto each other.
If you look at the terminals,they usually group terminals uh
four-door.
So you'll have the reader, therex, the DPS, all of those would
be, you know, within a fewinches of each other, all those
(11:47):
connections, all those terminalblocks will be right there.
Um, so they're gonna live witheach other.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
So you're talking about you know DC current going
into stuff.
Um, we're talking about thebattery, stuff like that.
Tip number six would be thinkabout the heat and the
ventilation.
I don't recall, because I neverreally paid attention, access
control panels having louvers inthem or not.
Um, is this something that yougotta worry about?
Because I know you know, anycable when you put the heat on
(12:14):
it, it attenuates and causesproblems.
I know, I know computercontrolled devices, CPUs, GPUs,
when they heat up, they actuallyfail earlier.
It's called the half-life rule.
So think about heating andventilation is what would that
how would that come about withfor access control systems?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Sure.
So yes, they are ventilated.
Um if you're buying a commercialoff-the-shelf uh power supply,
it's going to be ventilatedalready, right?
So it's already kind of speccedout.
And if you buy the biggerbuild-it-yourself kits, they
come with good ventilationalready.
Um, I think you'd be careful ifyou were to build your own
(12:56):
enclosure.
Maybe you started getting intothe NEMA enclosures.
You need to start building into,you know, maybe thinking about
adding a fan to it or somethinglike that.
Um that you would definitely becareful.
But I would say mostcommercially available power
supplies and enclosures that arebuilt for access control that
are you know spec'd out, they'regoing to be already ventilated.
(13:20):
Some of them have, you know,louvers, some of them have uh,
you know, the tiny perforationholes in the door.
So they they do come that way.
I and they're generally, I'vehaven't opened up any commercial
ones that you know, you know,when you open it, you get that
wave of heat that like thisthing just really needed to
(13:41):
breathe.
They're usually pretty good.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
You're really good, Mick, because I I as you were
talking, I was like, oh, go askabout that, and then you
answered it.
And then you're talking aboutasking about that, and you
answer, get out of my headbecause you're answering my
question before I ask them.
Uh all right, tip number seven,make everything serviceable.
Like I kind of touched base on,you know, um, and you kind of
touch base a little bit becauseyou're talking about doing the
loop.
(14:03):
Yeah, you call it the drip loop,and it actually is called a drip
loop, but a drip loop's itsorigins is cable TV, like a
network, a drop coming into thehouse.
You do the drip loop so waterdoesn't file have a straight
line into the house.
But technically it is a it is adrip loop, right?
Um, so give us some tips onmaking everything serviceable.
So when the service tech, thefire alarm tech goes back you
(14:25):
know, six months to service it,makes our job a little bit
easier.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Yeah, definitely.
I would say when you're inthere, you know, you got
everything labeled, you did yourdrip loop, right?
And then you try to bunch thingsup with Velcro, bunch them up as
close as you can to thesplitting point, I'll say, where
they net now they need to go indifferent directions.
Because that really like keepsyour eye focused on where those
(14:50):
cables are.
And as the technician who isalways coming after somebody
else, it really makes adifference because I take a lot
of time in trying to decomposethis mess of wires and try to
put everything back together asbest as I can.
And you also have to keep inmind that you know, don't do a
(15:13):
diagonal straight line to whereyou need across all the panel,
across the whole panel.
Because you really you you'vegotta admit that the access
control industry changesrapidly, and you may switch to a
completely different accesscontrol system in a few years,
(15:33):
or even better, the company thatyou're with has a newer version
that you have to switch to, andit happens.
I'll tell you now, uh, there's acompany that uh warranties all
their panels.
Well, one of the panels died, sowhat do they do?
They sent you the new model.
Guess what?
The new model is in a differentspot.
(15:55):
So all those like wires that youjust strung really tight across
diagonally that you have no roomfor, you got to do it again.
Hence the drip loop, hence thedrip loop, and hence making
yourself give yourself a routingspace, right?
Don't move in diagonals, godown, around, up, whatever you
(16:15):
need to do, but but move in asquare to get to where you need
to be.
That way you can keep everythingneat and tidy and off to the
side.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
And here's a chuck rule for you.
Don't install that cabling likeI don't care what it looks like
after I close the door.
Install the cabling like, hey,I'm gonna be the service tech
coming out here in six months tofix this.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
That's that's the golden rule because the the the
the unlucky guy who's gonna fixit is most likely going to be
you.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
It always starts always turns out that way,
doesn't it?
It's a Friday afternoon, andyou're like, it's 4 30, and you
think, oh my god, I gotta Igotta deal with all that traffic
on 295.
And you know, I'll just I'll dothis one little shortcut just so
I can get out of a tiny bitearlier.
And then sure enough, like theMonday after the weekend, you're
going back or to do somethingelse, and that shortcut that you
took is causing you more time ona Monday.
(17:03):
Ask me how I know that one.
I'm not gonna tell you theactual story, but yeah, it
that's happened to me on morethan one occasion.
You know, within a structurecable, we always talk about
future proofing, you know,designing for tomorrow, you
know, because you know, thingschange and you're always adding
drops, stuff like that.
Um, I I would have to imaginetip number eight, because you
(17:24):
because you just mentioned thatyou know this, your your
industry changes pretty fast aswell, too, that you have to
leave some kind of capacity forexpansion.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
So that's a it's a really good question, and it
kind of depends.
Sometimes there's access controlis expensive, right?
So saying I'm gonna put twoextra door controllers in here
just to get you ready couldreally drive up the cost in
terms of, you know, maybe thisis not a good project for this
(17:52):
person anymore.
It's out of their budget.
Uh, I would definitely say um ifyou needed two doors, I'd
probably want to make sure youhad four just in case.
Um, but I that's not to say thatevery project is has that kind
of wiggle room, you're right.
You have to talk to the customerto see where they're at.
If they have, you know,sometimes you talk to them and
(18:15):
they've already planned fourextra doors, right?
So in that case, you definitelyat least want to have an
enclosure big enough to addthose extra doors to it.
At the minimum, have anenclosure big enough because
that's it's always aconversation, right?
And if the conversation givesyou the feeling that this person
needs more doors, you want toaccount for that.
(18:36):
Um, you definitely want to say,like, if somebody needed three
doors, I probably, you know,controllers usually come in the
one, two, or four range.
If you needed three, I'mprobably gonna go for the four
for you rather than get you atwo and a one and lock you in.
(18:56):
Right.
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
I I would have to imagine that that would also
depend on two factors.
Number one, the vertical marketthat you're working with.
Because you you um you'reputting you know these systems
in, you know, doctors' offices,commercial office buildings,
hospitals, gyms, and a and abunch of other places.
So I'd imagine there are certaintypes of verticals that you just
(19:19):
know just from all your years ofexperience, it's best to maybe
have instead of doing three,doing six, and otherwise, where
you might say where four wouldbe.
So I'm sure you probably gotthat good feel for that.
Uh as a as a general rule ofthumb, though, what percentage
would you say?
Would you would you say it's a50% growth factor, 100% growth
factor?
Again, not tying into anyverticals though.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
You know, it's interesting because once
somebody gets access control andthey really leverage the power
of being able to fully uhcontrol the ins and outs of the
building, who's got it, whenthey, you know, person got
fired, I took it away instantly.
When they really start to feelthe power of the access control
(20:04):
system, it they usually expand,right?
It always starts off, I justneed one or two.
And then they realize wouldn'tit be really nice if I had more?
Um, so it's always one of thosethings where I feel like
probably 60% of the time thesystem will grow.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Gotcha.
Tip number nine labeleverything.
We've got talked that about alittle bit already.
Uh, you and I both are bigproponents on labeling, labeling
everything, and labelingaccurately.
We're big fans of that.
So we already knocked that oneto death.
But let's talk about what kindof labels are you using?
Are you using, you know, brotherP Touch labels?
(20:45):
Are you using cable wraparoundcloth labels?
What kind of labels are youusing to label everything?
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
I I'm an Epson guy.
I really like the Epson.
Um I probably have one in everyvehicle, so everybody's got an
Epson.
Um, and I teach all my guys onthe Epson.
And so we're using cable wrapsto every cable that's in the
enclosure has got a cable wrapon it.
(21:11):
We're using, you know, justregular generals to I use the
inside of the door.
So all of the the names of allof the devices, all the those
English names, that's on theinside of the door.
Uh the exterior of the cans,that is also labeled with a node
(21:32):
number.
So whatever the node is, that'sthe node for that can.
Uh, the batteries, you mustlabel the install date on the
battery.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Why is the date important?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Batteries don't last forever.
When you get to about fiveyears, you're lucky and you
should have replaced it already.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
So when I walk in there and I see a 2008 battery,
I can already tell.
Tell you right now, we'regetting rid of those, we're
throwing them away, we don'ttrust them, and you're getting
new batteries.
Um, and then even for our ownsake, when we walk in and maybe
it was my install, and maybe Ilapsed and I I forgot, you know,
when the last time I put thosebatteries in.
(22:16):
I need to know that.
I need to know when thesebatteries went into service
because there's a there's anexpiration date.
So we always put the date it wasinstalled, not the date of the
expiration.
So we put it and we put it downto the day.
Now, I don't know if it reallymattered, but I like to know the
day that it was it was put in.
It gives me a little bit ofcontext too.
(22:37):
Uh it starts to be a memoryjogger of, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember that.
August 10th.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
That's a great value add, too.
While you're there doing theservice work, you can tell your
customer, look, I just haven'tnoticed your batteries are five
years old.
They generally last three years.
You've been, you know, you twoyears, you've been pretty
stinking lucky.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
And and when you think about the cost of
replacing a a battery in a panelsystem, I gotta imagine.
You can tell me if I'm right orwrong.
You I gotta imagine it.
It's far cheaper to do it whileyou're there already doing a
service call, as opposed to a 630 p.m.
on a Friday night service callbecause hey, we're trying to
trying to turn on our alarmsystem, it's not coming on, and
(23:17):
then you got to dispatch a techfrom uh from Hagerstown,
Maryland.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Oh, a hundred percent.
I mean, getting it done whileyou're there is the name of the
game, right?
That's gonna save everybody.
Um, you know, I like servicecalls, but I'd rather not send a
tech all the way out somewherejust to swap two batteries and
come back.
Um, it's just well, not one ofthose, it's just I'd rather not.
(23:42):
I there's so much more importantthings to be doing.
Not to say batteries are notimportant, but a little bit more
challenging important things todo.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
But if that's a foundational thing, that it
should be done right the firsttime, every time, and it should
even be in question, though.
Other things, other things,there's different levels of
factors that go into that.
So you know you're talking,you're talking about so again,
you're following this the NCstandards on labeling because it
says you're supposed to usemachine-generated labels.
(24:11):
So you see, you're following thestandards you don't even know
it.
Um, and they say that you're notsupposed to use sharpies.
Do you ever see, you know, Iknow it's not you or anybody,
any member of your team, butmaybe an install done by
somebody else where they labeledeverything by Sharpies?
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
Yes, all the time.
All the time.
And I'm not saying that everytime sometimes that Sharpie has
saved the day.
Because I'd go to a battery andI'd see a very faint, shiny uh,
you know, 7 2025, and I can say,okay, well, that's better than
(24:45):
no date at all.
Um, but you know, you alwayslove to see the nice label on it
because Sharpie, you know, itsometimes it smudges.
It it has happened.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
And it's a sign of professionalism when you're
using a machine generated label.
Correct.
And and I hate to admit this,not everybody's handwriting's
the best.
No.
Sometimes I can't even read myown handwriting, and that should
tell you something right there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
If you've ever seen somebody try to write on a 22-2
cable that's about this thin.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
And try to write a label on it that's legible.
Right.
I'd pay money to see that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
I was just telling somebody this just the other
day.
It might have been my wife,because she's helps she helps
with the podcast now.
We're talking about labeling andstuff like that.
And and I said, you know, theSharpie's aren't the best, I
aren't aren't even a great ideafor roughing because, you know,
but look, you know, six and nineare identical to each other
unless you put a line under oneof them to let you know which is
the bottom of that number,right?
(25:46):
And and you tie in sloppyhandwriting, and you tie in the
cable getting pulled throughconduit and getting smudged and
smeared, or through the ceilinggets smudged and smeared, and
you can't read them, it comesout the other side.
So I'm I'm a super big huge fanon labeling everything and
labeling everything the correctway.
All right, pro tip number 10.
Pro tip number 10.
(26:07):
Documentation.
Closing out the project.
One of the one of the most areaswhere uh I I again I can't speak
for access control, but I canspeak for structured cabling
professionals.
We suck at it.
We're great at putting in thecable, we're great at testing
the cable.
We're just we just forget to putthat dot at the end of the
sentence, and that dot is calledthe documentation.
So let's talk about some of thedocumentation that's that's done
(26:29):
with with access controls.
So what kind of what are some ofthe requirements that you see uh
that require that are requiredin the document package?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Yeah, so definitely I would say an as built is
money.
So that's for us, it's takingyou know uh a layout of the
plans, putting our door labelingscheme on the plans so that
somebody can see exactly what CA3.1 correlates to on the map,
(27:01):
right?
So when you put it on the plans,that's that just changes
everything.
And then you fold that up andyou stick it inside the uh, I
mean, you email it to the clientas well, but you stick it inside
the enclosures that way.
That next guy who comes in, hecan just open this thing up and
say, Oh, it's all here, right?
I mean, that that just gives youthat warm, fuzzy feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
He opens it up and says, Oh, this must be a trican
job.
Yeah.
Um see, in our world, thestructure cabling world, again,
you mentioned you send a copy tothe customer.
We send a copy of the Asbuild tothe customer as well, too.
And then and as a projectmanager, I always told my when
we finish a project, print offthree sets of prints.
One for the customer, one forthe R office, because the
(27:45):
customer always loses theirprints.
And then the third one islaminate it and mount it to the
wall.
So that way when the servicetext there, they know exactly.
But you're folding yours up,putting it inside the control
panel, and the control panel islocked, so you don't have to
laminate yours.
Yeah, that makes yours even evenin safer.
What other kind of things umwould you would you make part of
the documentation package?
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
So also the equipment that was installed,
right?
So it's good to know.
Um, and it and this is good whenyou get to like maintenance and
service, right?
What what model readers are onthe wall, right?
If I have to go over there andheat the customer tells me, hey,
this one died.
Well, I need to know which oneI'm bringing to replace it with.
Yeah, I I may remember, but I'dlike to have an equipment list.
(28:28):
So I keep a uh a list of all thereaders that went in.
What are the control panels thatwent in?
Um, a lot of times we'lldocument the network equipment.
So the control panels a lot oftimes are on the network.
So we'll document the MACaddress, the IP address it was
using if it was a static, um,serial numbers of devices, um
(28:52):
models for the power supplies,uh, the amount and models for
the batteries that we put in.
I don't think the brand mattersas much as the size of the
battery.
So if it was, you know, 12volts, 7 amp hours, I could look
at the documentation and say,okay, this guy needs new
batteries.
He had two 7 amp hours, loadthat on the truck and go and go
(29:15):
out.
So that information is on there.
Uh the models of the powersupplies are on there.
Um, the models of the lock, thelocking hardware are on there.
So we know exactly, you know, ifa if a strike is dead.
You know, sometimes they cansend me a picture and I know, oh
yeah, I know what that, I knowthat model number.
But sometimes they I'm notthere, somebody else is there.
(29:39):
That's fine.
We have the documentation, we'lllook it up.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Right.
So a couple final questions, andthese weren't in the in the list
that I sent over for you, but Iknow you're a true professional
and you can handle them withease.
So I already mentioned you'refollowing Nancy labeling
standards.
So what standards or codes doyou have to follow as an access
control or a fire alarminstaller that maybe a
(30:04):
structured cabling guy doesn't?
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Building code comes into play.
So the IBC comes into play, andthat's based on the
jurisdiction.
Um, so building code comes intoplay, uh, NFPA 101 comes into
play, so that's the life safetycode.
And these are all importantwhenever you talk about like
egress doors, right?
There are rules on specificallymaglocks because of the way that
(30:31):
they work, right?
They're either on or they'reoff, and there's no other way to
get through them unless you turnthem off.
Well, there's the axe, but um sothose get very tricky when it
comes to you know what you haveto do to make that safe in terms
of you know the mechanicalinterrupt of the circuit, uh the
(30:53):
rex device, how that rex deviceis wired into the circuit, the
circuits matter.
Um, so those kind of things, thefire alarm interface.
So I would say between the IBCand FPA 101, uh, so the
structured guys will still begoverned by NEC.
So I think we're both governedby NEC.
(31:13):
So that's not a different ordifferent way of doing it, but
definitely IBC.
IBC is gonna give you uhstairwell re-entry, all that
other stuff.
So there's a lot of life safetywhen it comes to access control.
So those two things probablycome in the most.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
It's a little bit more critical.
Yeah, it's life safety.
You know, it's funny.
You mentioned the axe again.
You know what we used to call anaxe in the fire department?
Key to the U-2, an Udo, U2,universal door opener.
Get the Udo.
Okay, we'll be right therebecause it would open up any
door.
It works, it definitely works.
Yes, it does.
(31:50):
So let's talk about, you know,you I obviously there's more
than one manufacturer of firealarm systems, access control
systems, stuff like that.
Um is it is it similar to thestructure cabling world?
There's a there's a there's a uha Belden, a Panda with a
Levitin, and you get training,you can get training from those
different manufacturers, you canget certified from different
manufacturers.
(32:10):
Is that same kind of thing truein the access control panel?
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Oh, 100%.
So it's it's it's the same way,a little a little bit tighter.
Uh when it comes to an accesscontrol system, you you can most
of these companies havecertification training to get
you certified to just installit.
There's uh dealer, the dealerside of certification as well.
(32:34):
They don't allow anybody to justinstall um some companies do,
but they're you know, when itcomes to what we call the
heavier irons, like the biggerbrands, you can't just say hell
we call we call it like the bigfour, right, in our industry.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
And you could probably name the four
structured cabling manufacturersI'm talking about.
I say the big four.
Yeah, it wouldn't it wouldn't beyou know high olasi cable from
Amazon.
SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
They're not one right, right, right.
You're not just gonna wake upone day and say, I'm gonna
install Comscope, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
No, no, that's that's a process to get in.
It's a process, like any of thebig four, right?
There, you know, you you there'sa there's a whole process for
it.
You gotta apply for it, yougotta prove that you're
worthwhile to be in the program.
You got you might have to gettraining or certified.
There's lots of but you don'tyou don't just get accepted,
those big four.
That's that's why it cracks meup.
You know, you see the commentsall the time.
(33:26):
Again, in the social mediagroups, you know, well, I don't
have to be manufacturercertified.
No, you don't, but uh, you ifyou are manufacturer certified,
you are you anything you do iscovered under the extended
warranties, you know, which isabove and beyond what you would
get from a standard, you know,12-month warranty, six month
warranty, whatever the case maybe.
Sure.
(33:46):
Vic, what a great conversation,man.
I appreciate you coming on.
I didn't realize we went anhour.
Dong Arthur probably break thisup into two segments.
So appreciate you coming on andsharing your knowledge, my
friend.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Oh, anytime.
Whenever you want to do this,I'm down.
I I'll put I'll make a newbucket list.
And there you go.
I got one more question for you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
I just thought of this.
I just thought of this.
So, you know, getting in thestructure cabling world, you can
you can get in pretty easy.
Just find a place that's hiringapprentices, get there, show up
every day, listen to what theytell you to do, stay off your
phone, you know, be a goodworker, and you'll work your way
through the ranks.
And you might get you might gettraining, you might get pixie
(34:24):
training or something like that.
But in the in this in the accesscontrol world, or is it the fire
alarm world?
I don't remember which.
You hear people talk aboutnyset.
What is nyset?
And do you have to have thattraining or certification to be
able to even install accesscontrol, fire alarm stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
No, you don't.
There is a NISAT for likesecurity and access control.
It's not very common out there.
I don't think people, it's itnice set is like the gold
standard when it comes to firealarm.
Okay, they want to get into moreof the security, they're not
there yet.
It's not like like I could go inand read a spec for a job, and
(35:04):
it's like if you don't have anice at three, you can't design
fire alarms.
So it's kind of like Bixie.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
It's kind of like Bixie.
SPEAKER_00 (35:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
You can you can you can install terminated test
cable without being Bixiecertified or FOA certified or
CFOT certified.
But there's projects that comeout where the customer says in
order to bid on this project,you have to have X amount of
NISAT 3 installers or NISAT.
Yes.
Okay.
For some reason I had in my headthat uh when it came to NISAT,
(35:33):
that that was a a code requiredkind of thing just to be able to
install the system.
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
So now I will say this New York specifically has
in their requirements nice at soif you want to touch fire in New
York, it's a nice set.
I know most other jurisdictions.
Now I know New York specificallysays nice at, but in most other
(36:00):
places, a nice set satisfies allrequirements.
I mean, I have a nice set aswell in fire, I just don't like
fire.
SPEAKER_01 (36:06):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
So I guess it would be good advice.
SPEAKER_01 (36:09):
It would be good advice that uh get your nice at
certification.
Or no, no, no, no.
It would be good, it would begood advice to check with your
local authority havingjurisdiction as to the
requirements for nice at andalso check with your customer
and the contract verbiage as towhether or not NISAT's required.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Is that that's a more yeah, and nice at I
honestly, NYSET is bigger in thefire world than it is in access
control.
I don't think I've ever seenanybody mention NISAT in a spec
for an access control.
Honestly, most people don'tspec.
They only spec that you havebeen certified on that specific
(36:50):
brand.
So you need, like let's say it'sHirsch.
You would have to have a Herschidentic certified tech on staff
to bid the project.
Hey editing Chuck here, working on part two of the
(00:03):
installation design series foraccess control and fire alarm
service with Mick from Trican.
I really enjoy working on thisepisode.
Let me know down below if youlike this kind of content.
Should I do more of it?
And also don't forget that wegot our three CEC courses:
Firestopping, Bonding andGrounding, Codes versus
Standards.
And we had a first class lastnight, Firestopping.
(00:26):
Had a lot of people in thatclass.
One person already mailed methis morning and said they were
able to use some of theinformation they learned last
night in their job today.
So check down in the descriptionfor that.
We'll give you the links forthat as well.
So let's get on with this veryinteresting conversation with
Mick.
(01:09):
You have to factor in the accesscontrol panel design.
Again, I've shown my naivety ofaccess control systems.
The size of the battery, theventilation of the battery, is
the battery stored inside theaccess control panel, or is it
like phone systems where it'sseparate outside of it?
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
So it is generally inside the access control panel,
and you will generally belimited to the size of batteries
you can fit in the space thatyou have left.
Some access control panels,people jam them so tight you can
barely squeeze a 7 amp hourbattery in them.
And some of them have such abattery requirement, they have a
(01:48):
whole separate can on their own.
That's just batteries, right?
Another enclosure completelydedicated to batteries.
It all depends on, you know,what's what's your what's your
client asking for?
Are they asking for 24 hours offull battery backup?
Um sometimes it's just fourhours, right?
They just need to be able to getthrough whatever they're getting
(02:10):
through, shut down for the restof the day, and still be able to
get in.
I think a general, at least forus, a general rule of thumb is
we try to get you 24 hours uh ofbattery backup.
Now, we there are scenarioswhere the batteries, you know,
we could have extended outages.
Um, but I would say the majorityof all outages are going to be
(02:34):
in the under 24 hour range.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, I think I would kind of agree with that
somewhat.
Um again, I know just tying backto my old fire department days,
uh, we'd run calls all the timefor you know fire alarms being
set off.
And um, and uh, you know, it wasit was almost always a uh nine
nine calls out of ten, it was aproblem with the fire alarm
(02:58):
system, right?
But you have to treat everysingle one of them as if it's an
act of fire.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
100%.
SPEAKER_01 (03:02):
And uh you would get there and and and you know it
you never fail because it theyit seemed like the fire alarm
systems only knowed how to failat two o'clock in the morning,
right?
And they don't they don't seemwhere to fail at two o'clock in
the afternoon for some reason.
And so so a lot of times, youknow, it would they would fail,
we'd go rushing out there, it'dbe nothing.
Of course, we still got toinspect the whole entire
(03:23):
building, but but then you know,if we get a call at like 245,
same building, same alarm, we goback out there again, again, you
know, because you don't know.
It could be something, you know,it could be burning.
And we get there, and sureenough, it'd be a fire alarm
issue.
And then we get a call at 330,same thing.
At some point, that buildinggets put on a fire watch, where
you know, they they you know,somebody from I'm assuming like
(03:47):
maybe if it was one of yoursystems, it'd be somebody from
Trican, maybe.
Um, where they come there andliterally have to babysit the
building until the right partcame to fix the fire alarm.
SPEAKER_00 (03:55):
Yep, yep.
That is the thing.
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
It is, yeah.
And that's where that's youknow, people talk about fire
watch, but they don't reallyknow what it means.
They you know, but there you go.
I do, I do.
So now let's shift ourconversation to the to the
technician, because uh, youknow, a great design is a great
design, but let's be let's behonest, it's the installer who
makes it serviceable, right?
(04:18):
So let's talk about the thepanel, the panel itself, because
you know, you know, I I've I Iget the feeling, and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, becauseI I you know I've I've
functioned in many differentsocial media groups, obviously.
And I'm in the fire alarm socialmedia group on Facebook, and and
I'm at and I don't even know 99%of what I'm looking at, but but
(04:41):
I will say I do get the feelingthat technicians installing
cabling in in access controlpanels and fire alarm panels are
the same kind that doingstructure cabling.
There's those who really want tomake sure everything looks nice
and pretty, and then there'sothers who just like, yeah,
whatever.
Yeah, once the door closed,can't see it from my house.
(05:03):
Right?
Um, so let's talk about thatcontrol panel and let's talk
about you know um maybe somebest practices on on how to how
to build that out.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
Uh definitely I would say the number one thing I
would say building your controlpanels is your labeling.
You're labeling doors.
Uh doors tend to switch names,they tend to switch purpose.
What might have been thepresident's office today could
(05:34):
be the storage closet tomorrow.
Uh, room numbers, room numbersare sometimes lost completely,
they don't exist anymore.
You saw the change it was A102.
Nobody ever called it A102 afterthat.
So I there isn't really like theperfect way to name things, but
(05:55):
I would definitely say it has tomake sense to the people who are
in the building because they'rethe ones who are gonna open that
door up one day and try to liketell somebody what that meant.
Um, so de but label, label,label.
And I would go as far as to saywhen the banana cable comes
(06:17):
inside the can, it should belabeled.
And I use uh a numbering systemthat translate to the port that
would it was plugged into.
So I'll have the name of thecontroller, you know, CA, the
name of the board three, andthen the port dot one.
(06:38):
So when you see that cable andit says CA3 dot one, you know
exactly where it was going to.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
You don't realize this, but you're labeling almost
perfectly to the ANSI standards.
Because really what we'resupposed to do, structure
cabling labeling.
If you look at the the labelingstandard, is so you see my rack
behind me.
So the patch panel that's inrack unit 45, which is the very
top rack unit, so the cableterminal on the first port, that
should be 45-01.
(07:06):
Oh, okay.
So you're labeling, you'refollowing the 6S6 standard or
the anzi standsy labelingstandard.
You don't even know it.
SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Didn't even know it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
That's right.
So are you labeling both ends?
So if if a if an end user, let'ssay they're looking at uh uh
kind of go back to a door therefor a second.
Is there a label on the doormechanism that says, hey, this
is you know, uh control panelthree 3A-whatever you the
whatever the sequence you gaveis, is there a label on both
sides?
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
So typically no, um, because when we do our K our
cabling, we've usually peeledthe Madana, peeled the banana
already, and now we've split allthe wires out to ever wherever
they needed to go.
So there's not really one spot.
Uh, there are a few jobs where Iused to take like a small
sticker and put it on the insideof the jam of the door.
(07:55):
Um and that that held up prettywell.
Um eventually somebody's gonnapaint over it.
It's just the way it happens.
Um, so we're not too strict withthat.
Usually with new installs, we wewe try to do that.
Um, but one day somebody isgonna paint it.
I don't I don't care if it's afire rated door they weren't
(08:16):
supposed to paint it, it's gonnaget painted.
SPEAKER_01 (08:19):
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So, you know, we're talkingabout the cabling, you know, 184
and 226 and and and all thatother stuff.
They're not twisted pair, so youdon't have to worry about
untwisting the pairs.
Do you have to worry about bendradiuses or is there anything
else about the cabling thatinstallers got to be careful
with inside the access controlpanel?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
No, not really.
I mean, they're all stranded, sothey they have a good bit of
flexibility to them.
Um, I would say make sure I Icall it the drip loop.
Make sure once you come into thecan, give yourself that drip
loop, go down to the bottom andcome back up and then spider out
(08:59):
to wherever you need to be onthe board.
Um, another thing I forgot whenyou do the labels, you know, you
label the cable and it goes tothe position that it's going in.
But then on the other side ofit, you have to have English.
So you have to say CA 3.1 is theprincipal's office, right?
And that's where things start toclick and come together.
(09:22):
That's where the English comesin and things make sense.
And that's such a big dealbecause you look at all these
things and they're, you know,you're looking at CA31, CA32,
CA33, and you're like, who theheck?
What the heck?
I don't know where that is.
I don't, you know, who came upwith and you, you know, you're
cursing the guy who came up withthat uh labeling standard.
(09:43):
It's it's gotta meet theEnglish, right?
That's how you really make adifference.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Until they realize that that number is the panel
and the port number.
And then by looking at the atthe user side, when you and this
is why it's written in the wayit is in the standards, because
that way when you look at thatfaceplate, in your mind as you
as you read the label, your mindis envisioning exactly where
that thing is.
So when you walk into the room,you're not, you know, you're not
(10:08):
in rack two, you're not at thebottom, because rack four unit
45 is the top, you know, youalmost know exactly where that
is before you even walk into theroom or or open up the access
control panel.
Sure.
Sure.
So yeah, it doesn't make sense.
I understand it doesn't makesense.
And in this this is one of thosehills I'll die standing on
because you know, people in theindustry that I want to label it
by the room number.
No, room numbers change.
I want to label them one, two,three, four.
(10:30):
Yeah, no.
What have they if they adddevices?
Because you know, they're nolonger in order, right?
Yeah, there's lots, yeah,there's lots of reasons to do it
the way that the standard saysdo it.
No, you're talking about thecabling.
So you say we got we got powercoming over this cabling, we got
some signal coming over thiscabling because you're talking
about the the door monitor,stuff like that.
Um, should those cables betogether or should they be
separated in the access panel?
SPEAKER_00 (10:51):
Uh they can be together.
I mean, really and truly uhthey're together the whole way,
they're in the same banana,they're in the same jacket,
right?
Um, and the signaling is yeah,we have OSDP, which is a serial.
Um but it is you said you'redoing DC Current.
SPEAKER_01 (11:10):
Yes.
Well, DC Current doesn't have asine wave to it, so it's just
it's on.
So there's there's no EMI youhad to worry about.
It's a stupid question.
I just I answered my ownquestion just thinking about it,
you know.
SPEAKER_00 (11:25):
Um so they could they can they can live in the
same jacket, they can be rightnext to each other, and and 99%
of the time they are right nextto each other.
If you look at the terminals,they usually group terminals uh
four-door.
So you'll have the reader, therex, the DPS, all of those would
be, you know, within a fewinches of each other, all those
(11:47):
connections, all those terminalblocks will be right there.
Um, so they're gonna live witheach other.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
So you're talking about you know DC current going
into stuff.
Um, we're talking about thebattery, stuff like that.
Tip number six would be thinkabout the heat and the
ventilation.
I don't recall, because I neverreally paid attention, access
control panels having louvers inthem or not.
Um, is this something that yougotta worry about?
Because I know you know, anycable when you put the heat on
(12:14):
it, it attenuates and causesproblems.
I know, I know computercontrolled devices, CPUs, GPUs,
when they heat up, they actuallyfail earlier.
It's called the half-life rule.
So think about heating andventilation is what would that
how would that come about withfor access control systems?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Sure.
So yes, they are ventilated.
Um if you're buying a commercialoff-the-shelf uh power supply,
it's going to be ventilatedalready, right?
So it's already kind of speccedout.
And if you buy the biggerbuild-it-yourself kits, they
come with good ventilationalready.
Um, I think you'd be careful ifyou were to build your own
(12:56):
enclosure.
Maybe you started getting intothe NEMA enclosures.
You need to start building into,you know, maybe thinking about
adding a fan to it or somethinglike that.
Um that you would definitely becareful.
But I would say mostcommercially available power
supplies and enclosures that arebuilt for access control that
are you know spec'd out, they'regoing to be already ventilated.
(13:20):
Some of them have, you know,louvers, some of them have uh,
you know, the tiny perforationholes in the door.
So they they do come that way.
I and they're generally, I'vehaven't opened up any commercial
ones that you know, you know,when you open it, you get that
wave of heat that like thisthing just really needed to
(13:41):
breathe.
They're usually pretty good.
SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
You're really good, Mick, because I I as you were
talking, I was like, oh, go askabout that, and then you
answered it.
And then you're talking aboutasking about that, and you
answer, get out of my headbecause you're answering my
question before I ask them.
Uh all right, tip number seven,make everything serviceable.
Like I kind of touched base on,you know, um, and you kind of
touch base a little bit becauseyou're talking about doing the
loop.
(14:03):
Yeah, you call it the drip loop,and it actually is called a drip
loop, but a drip loop's itsorigins is cable TV, like a
network, a drop coming into thehouse.
You do the drip loop so waterdoesn't file have a straight
line into the house.
But technically it is a it is adrip loop, right?
Um, so give us some tips onmaking everything serviceable.
So when the service tech, thefire alarm tech goes back you
(14:25):
know, six months to service it,makes our job a little bit
easier.
SPEAKER_00 (14:28):
Yeah, definitely.
I would say when you're inthere, you know, you got
everything labeled, you did yourdrip loop, right?
And then you try to bunch thingsup with Velcro, bunch them up as
close as you can to thesplitting point, I'll say, where
they net now they need to go indifferent directions.
Because that really like keepsyour eye focused on where those
(14:50):
cables are.
And as the technician who isalways coming after somebody
else, it really makes adifference because I take a lot
of time in trying to decomposethis mess of wires and try to
put everything back together asbest as I can.
And you also have to keep inmind that you know, don't do a
(15:13):
diagonal straight line to whereyou need across all the panel,
across the whole panel.
Because you really you you'vegotta admit that the access
control industry changesrapidly, and you may switch to a
completely different accesscontrol system in a few years,
(15:33):
or even better, the company thatyou're with has a newer version
that you have to switch to, andit happens.
I'll tell you now, uh, there's acompany that uh warranties all
their panels.
Well, one of the panels died, sowhat do they do?
They sent you the new model.
Guess what?
The new model is in a differentspot.
(15:55):
So all those like wires that youjust strung really tight across
diagonally that you have no roomfor, you got to do it again.
Hence the drip loop, hence thedrip loop, and hence making
yourself give yourself a routingspace, right?
Don't move in diagonals, godown, around, up, whatever you
(16:15):
need to do, but but move in asquare to get to where you need
to be.
That way you can keep everythingneat and tidy and off to the
side.
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
And here's a chuck rule for you.
Don't install that cabling likeI don't care what it looks like
after I close the door.
Install the cabling like, hey,I'm gonna be the service tech
coming out here in six months tofix this.
SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
That's that's the golden rule because the the the
the unlucky guy who's gonna fixit is most likely going to be
you.
SPEAKER_01 (16:42):
It always starts always turns out that way,
doesn't it?
It's a Friday afternoon, andyou're like, it's 4 30, and you
think, oh my god, I gotta Igotta deal with all that traffic
on 295.
And you know, I'll just I'll dothis one little shortcut just so
I can get out of a tiny bitearlier.
And then sure enough, like theMonday after the weekend, you're
going back or to do somethingelse, and that shortcut that you
took is causing you more time ona Monday.
(17:03):
Ask me how I know that one.
I'm not gonna tell you theactual story, but yeah, it
that's happened to me on morethan one occasion.
You know, within a structurecable, we always talk about
future proofing, you know,designing for tomorrow, you
know, because you know, thingschange and you're always adding
drops, stuff like that.
Um, I I would have to imaginetip number eight, because you
(17:24):
because you just mentioned thatyou know this, your your
industry changes pretty fast aswell, too, that you have to
leave some kind of capacity forexpansion.
SPEAKER_00 (17:32):
So that's a it's a really good question, and it
kind of depends.
Sometimes there's access controlis expensive, right?
So saying I'm gonna put twoextra door controllers in here
just to get you ready couldreally drive up the cost in
terms of, you know, maybe thisis not a good project for this
(17:52):
person anymore.
It's out of their budget.
Uh, I would definitely say um ifyou needed two doors, I'd
probably want to make sure youhad four just in case.
Um, but I that's not to say thatevery project is has that kind
of wiggle room, you're right.
You have to talk to the customerto see where they're at.
If they have, you know,sometimes you talk to them and
(18:15):
they've already planned fourextra doors, right?
So in that case, you definitelyat least want to have an
enclosure big enough to addthose extra doors to it.
At the minimum, have anenclosure big enough because
that's it's always aconversation, right?
And if the conversation givesyou the feeling that this person
needs more doors, you want toaccount for that.
(18:36):
Um, you definitely want to say,like, if somebody needed three
doors, I probably, you know,controllers usually come in the
one, two, or four range.
If you needed three, I'mprobably gonna go for the four
for you rather than get you atwo and a one and lock you in.
(18:56):
Right.
That's it.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
I I would have to imagine that that would also
depend on two factors.
Number one, the vertical marketthat you're working with.
Because you you um you'reputting you know these systems
in, you know, doctors' offices,commercial office buildings,
hospitals, gyms, and a and abunch of other places.
So I'd imagine there are certaintypes of verticals that you just
(19:19):
know just from all your years ofexperience, it's best to maybe
have instead of doing three,doing six, and otherwise, where
you might say where four wouldbe.
So I'm sure you probably gotthat good feel for that.
Uh as a as a general rule ofthumb, though, what percentage
would you say?
Would you would you say it's a50% growth factor, 100% growth
factor?
Again, not tying into anyverticals though.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
You know, it's interesting because once
somebody gets access control andthey really leverage the power
of being able to fully uhcontrol the ins and outs of the
building, who's got it, whenthey, you know, person got
fired, I took it away instantly.
When they really start to feelthe power of the access control
(20:04):
system, it they usually expand,right?
It always starts off, I justneed one or two.
And then they realize wouldn'tit be really nice if I had more?
Um, so it's always one of thosethings where I feel like
probably 60% of the time thesystem will grow.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Gotcha.
Tip number nine labeleverything.
We've got talked that about alittle bit already.
Uh, you and I both are bigproponents on labeling, labeling
everything, and labelingaccurately.
We're big fans of that.
So we already knocked that oneto death.
But let's talk about what kindof labels are you using?
Are you using, you know, brotherP Touch labels?
(20:45):
Are you using cable wraparoundcloth labels?
What kind of labels are youusing to label everything?
SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
I I'm an Epson guy.
I really like the Epson.
Um I probably have one in everyvehicle, so everybody's got an
Epson.
Um, and I teach all my guys onthe Epson.
And so we're using cable wrapsto every cable that's in the
enclosure has got a cable wrapon it.
(21:11):
We're using, you know, justregular generals to I use the
inside of the door.
So all of the the names of allof the devices, all the those
English names, that's on theinside of the door.
Uh the exterior of the cans,that is also labeled with a node
(21:32):
number.
So whatever the node is, that'sthe node for that can.
Uh, the batteries, you mustlabel the install date on the
battery.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Why is the date important?
SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
Batteries don't last forever.
When you get to about fiveyears, you're lucky and you
should have replaced it already.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
So when I walk in there and I see a 2008 battery,
I can already tell.
Tell you right now, we'regetting rid of those, we're
throwing them away, we don'ttrust them, and you're getting
new batteries.
Um, and then even for our ownsake, when we walk in and maybe
it was my install, and maybe Ilapsed and I I forgot, you know,
when the last time I put thosebatteries in.
(22:16):
I need to know that.
I need to know when thesebatteries went into service
because there's a there's anexpiration date.
So we always put the date it wasinstalled, not the date of the
expiration.
So we put it and we put it downto the day.
Now, I don't know if it reallymattered, but I like to know the
day that it was it was put in.
It gives me a little bit ofcontext too.
(22:37):
Uh it starts to be a memoryjogger of, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember that.
August 10th.
SPEAKER_01 (22:42):
That's a great value add, too.
While you're there doing theservice work, you can tell your
customer, look, I just haven'tnoticed your batteries are five
years old.
They generally last three years.
You've been, you know, you twoyears, you've been pretty
stinking lucky.
SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:57):
And and when you think about the cost of
replacing a a battery in a panelsystem, I gotta imagine.
You can tell me if I'm right orwrong.
You I gotta imagine it.
It's far cheaper to do it whileyou're there already doing a
service call, as opposed to a 630 p.m.
on a Friday night service callbecause hey, we're trying to
trying to turn on our alarmsystem, it's not coming on, and
(23:17):
then you got to dispatch a techfrom uh from Hagerstown,
Maryland.
SPEAKER_00 (23:22):
Oh, a hundred percent.
I mean, getting it done whileyou're there is the name of the
game, right?
That's gonna save everybody.
Um, you know, I like servicecalls, but I'd rather not send a
tech all the way out somewherejust to swap two batteries and
come back.
Um, it's just well, not one ofthose, it's just I'd rather not.
(23:42):
I there's so much more importantthings to be doing.
Not to say batteries are notimportant, but a little bit more
challenging important things todo.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
But if that's a foundational thing, that it
should be done right the firsttime, every time, and it should
even be in question, though.
Other things, other things,there's different levels of
factors that go into that.
So you know you're talking,you're talking about so again,
you're following this the NCstandards on labeling because it
says you're supposed to usemachine-generated labels.
(24:11):
So you see, you're following thestandards you don't even know
it.
Um, and they say that you're notsupposed to use sharpies.
Do you ever see, you know, Iknow it's not you or anybody,
any member of your team, butmaybe an install done by
somebody else where they labeledeverything by Sharpies?
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
Yes, all the time.
All the time.
And I'm not saying that everytime sometimes that Sharpie has
saved the day.
Because I'd go to a battery andI'd see a very faint, shiny uh,
you know, 7 2025, and I can say,okay, well, that's better than
(24:45):
no date at all.
Um, but you know, you alwayslove to see the nice label on it
because Sharpie, you know, itsometimes it smudges.
It it has happened.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
And it's a sign of professionalism when you're
using a machine generated label.
Correct.
And and I hate to admit this,not everybody's handwriting's
the best.
No.
Sometimes I can't even read myown handwriting, and that should
tell you something right there.
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
If you've ever seen somebody try to write on a 22-2
cable that's about this thin.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
And try to write a label on it that's legible.
Right.
I'd pay money to see that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
I was just telling somebody this just the other
day.
It might have been my wife,because she's helps she helps
with the podcast now.
We're talking about labeling andstuff like that.
And and I said, you know, theSharpie's aren't the best, I
aren't aren't even a great ideafor roughing because, you know,
but look, you know, six and nineare identical to each other
unless you put a line under oneof them to let you know which is
the bottom of that number,right?
(25:46):
And and you tie in sloppyhandwriting, and you tie in the
cable getting pulled throughconduit and getting smudged and
smeared, or through the ceilinggets smudged and smeared, and
you can't read them, it comesout the other side.
So I'm I'm a super big huge fanon labeling everything and
labeling everything the correctway.
All right, pro tip number 10.
Pro tip number 10.
(26:07):
Documentation.
Closing out the project.
One of the one of the most areaswhere uh I I again I can't speak
for access control, but I canspeak for structured cabling
professionals.
We suck at it.
We're great at putting in thecable, we're great at testing
the cable.
We're just we just forget to putthat dot at the end of the
sentence, and that dot is calledthe documentation.
So let's talk about some of thedocumentation that's that's done
(26:29):
with with access controls.
So what kind of what are some ofthe requirements that you see uh
that require that are requiredin the document package?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Yeah, so definitely I would say an as built is
money.
So that's for us, it's takingyou know uh a layout of the
plans, putting our door labelingscheme on the plans so that
somebody can see exactly what CA3.1 correlates to on the map,
(27:01):
right?
So when you put it on the plans,that's that just changes
everything.
And then you fold that up andyou stick it inside the uh, I
mean, you email it to the clientas well, but you stick it inside
the enclosures that way.
That next guy who comes in, hecan just open this thing up and
say, Oh, it's all here, right?
I mean, that that just gives youthat warm, fuzzy feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
He opens it up and says, Oh, this must be a trican
job.
Yeah.
Um see, in our world, thestructure cabling world, again,
you mentioned you send a copy tothe customer.
We send a copy of the Asbuild tothe customer as well, too.
And then and as a projectmanager, I always told my when
we finish a project, print offthree sets of prints.
One for the customer, one forthe R office, because the
(27:45):
customer always loses theirprints.
And then the third one islaminate it and mount it to the
wall.
So that way when the servicetext there, they know exactly.
But you're folding yours up,putting it inside the control
panel, and the control panel islocked, so you don't have to
laminate yours.
Yeah, that makes yours even evenin safer.
What other kind of things umwould you would you make part of
the documentation package?
SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
So also the equipment that was installed,
right?
So it's good to know.
Um, and it and this is good whenyou get to like maintenance and
service, right?
What what model readers are onthe wall, right?
If I have to go over there andheat the customer tells me, hey,
this one died.
Well, I need to know which oneI'm bringing to replace it with.
Yeah, I I may remember, but I'dlike to have an equipment list.
(28:28):
So I keep a uh a list of all thereaders that went in.
What are the control panels thatwent in?
Um, a lot of times we'lldocument the network equipment.
So the control panels a lot oftimes are on the network.
So we'll document the MACaddress, the IP address it was
using if it was a static, um,serial numbers of devices, um
(28:52):
models for the power supplies,uh, the amount and models for
the batteries that we put in.
I don't think the brand mattersas much as the size of the
battery.
So if it was, you know, 12volts, 7 amp hours, I could look
at the documentation and say,okay, this guy needs new
batteries.
He had two 7 amp hours, loadthat on the truck and go and go
(29:15):
out.
So that information is on there.
Uh the models of the powersupplies are on there.
Um, the models of the lock, thelocking hardware are on there.
So we know exactly, you know, ifa if a strike is dead.
You know, sometimes they cansend me a picture and I know, oh
yeah, I know what that, I knowthat model number.
But sometimes they I'm notthere, somebody else is there.
(29:39):
That's fine.
We have the documentation, we'lllook it up.
SPEAKER_01 (29:43):
Right.
So a couple final questions, andthese weren't in the in the list
that I sent over for you, but Iknow you're a true professional
and you can handle them withease.
So I already mentioned you'refollowing Nancy labeling
standards.
So what standards or codes doyou have to follow as an access
control or a fire alarminstaller that maybe a
(30:04):
structured cabling guy doesn't?
SPEAKER_00 (30:07):
Building code comes into play.
So the IBC comes into play, andthat's based on the
jurisdiction.
Um, so building code comes intoplay, uh, NFPA 101 comes into
play, so that's the life safetycode.
And these are all importantwhenever you talk about like
egress doors, right?
There are rules on specificallymaglocks because of the way that
(30:31):
they work, right?
They're either on or they'reoff, and there's no other way to
get through them unless you turnthem off.
Well, there's the axe, but um sothose get very tricky when it
comes to you know what you haveto do to make that safe in terms
of you know the mechanicalinterrupt of the circuit, uh the
(30:53):
rex device, how that rex deviceis wired into the circuit, the
circuits matter.
Um, so those kind of things, thefire alarm interface.
So I would say between the IBCand FPA 101, uh, so the
structured guys will still begoverned by NEC.
So I think we're both governedby NEC.
(31:13):
So that's not a different ordifferent way of doing it, but
definitely IBC.
IBC is gonna give you uhstairwell re-entry, all that
other stuff.
So there's a lot of life safetywhen it comes to access control.
So those two things probablycome in the most.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
It's a little bit more critical.
Yeah, it's life safety.
You know, it's funny.
You mentioned the axe again.
You know what we used to call anaxe in the fire department?
Key to the U-2, an Udo, U2,universal door opener.
Get the Udo.
Okay, we'll be right therebecause it would open up any
door.
It works, it definitely works.
Yes, it does.
(31:50):
So let's talk about, you know,you I obviously there's more
than one manufacturer of firealarm systems, access control
systems, stuff like that.
Um is it is it similar to thestructure cabling world?
There's a there's a there's a uha Belden, a Panda with a
Levitin, and you get training,you can get training from those
different manufacturers, you canget certified from different
manufacturers.
(32:10):
Is that same kind of thing truein the access control panel?
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
Oh, 100%.
So it's it's it's the same way,a little a little bit tighter.
Uh when it comes to an accesscontrol system, you you can most
of these companies havecertification training to get
you certified to just installit.
There's uh dealer, the dealerside of certification as well.
(32:34):
They don't allow anybody to justinstall um some companies do,
but they're you know, when itcomes to what we call the
heavier irons, like the biggerbrands, you can't just say hell
we call we call it like the bigfour, right, in our industry.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
And you could probably name the four
structured cabling manufacturersI'm talking about.
I say the big four.
Yeah, it wouldn't it wouldn't beyou know high olasi cable from
Amazon.
SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
They're not one right, right, right.
You're not just gonna wake upone day and say, I'm gonna
install Comscope, right?
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
No, no, that's that's a process to get in.
It's a process, like any of thebig four, right?
There, you know, you you there'sa there's a whole process for
it.
You gotta apply for it, yougotta prove that you're
worthwhile to be in the program.
You got you might have to gettraining or certified.
There's lots of but you don'tyou don't just get accepted,
those big four.
That's that's why it cracks meup.
You know, you see the commentsall the time.
(33:26):
Again, in the social mediagroups, you know, well, I don't
have to be manufacturercertified.
No, you don't, but uh, you ifyou are manufacturer certified,
you are you anything you do iscovered under the extended
warranties, you know, which isabove and beyond what you would
get from a standard, you know,12-month warranty, six month
warranty, whatever the case maybe.
Sure.
(33:46):
Vic, what a great conversation,man.
I appreciate you coming on.
I didn't realize we went anhour.
Dong Arthur probably break thisup into two segments.
So appreciate you coming on andsharing your knowledge, my
friend.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Oh, anytime.
Whenever you want to do this,I'm down.
I I'll put I'll make a newbucket list.
And there you go.
I got one more question for you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
I just thought of this.
I just thought of this.
So, you know, getting in thestructure cabling world, you can
you can get in pretty easy.
Just find a place that's hiringapprentices, get there, show up
every day, listen to what theytell you to do, stay off your
phone, you know, be a goodworker, and you'll work your way
through the ranks.
And you might get you might gettraining, you might get pixie
(34:24):
training or something like that.
But in the in this in the accesscontrol world, or is it the fire
alarm world?
I don't remember which.
You hear people talk aboutnyset.
What is nyset?
And do you have to have thattraining or certification to be
able to even install accesscontrol, fire alarm stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (34:41):
No, you don't.
There is a NISAT for likesecurity and access control.
It's not very common out there.
I don't think people, it's itnice set is like the gold
standard when it comes to firealarm.
Okay, they want to get into moreof the security, they're not
there yet.
It's not like like I could go inand read a spec for a job, and
(35:04):
it's like if you don't have anice at three, you can't design
fire alarms.
So it's kind of like Bixie.
SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
It's kind of like Bixie.
SPEAKER_00 (35:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:11):
You can you can you can install terminated test
cable without being Bixiecertified or FOA certified or
CFOT certified.
But there's projects that comeout where the customer says in
order to bid on this project,you have to have X amount of
NISAT 3 installers or NISAT.
Yes.
Okay.
For some reason I had in my headthat uh when it came to NISAT,
(35:33):
that that was a a code requiredkind of thing just to be able to
install the system.
SPEAKER_00 (35:39):
So now I will say this New York specifically has
in their requirements nice at soif you want to touch fire in New
York, it's a nice set.
I know most other jurisdictions.
Now I know New York specificallysays nice at, but in most other
(36:00):
places, a nice set satisfies allrequirements.
I mean, I have a nice set aswell in fire, I just don't like
fire.
SPEAKER_01 (36:06):
Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00 (36:07):
So I guess it would be good advice.
SPEAKER_01 (36:09):
It would be good advice that uh get your nice at
certification.
Or no, no, no, no.
It would be good, it would begood advice to check with your
local authority havingjurisdiction as to the
requirements for nice at andalso check with your customer
and the contract verbiage as towhether or not NISAT's required.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Is that that's a more yeah, and nice at I
honestly, NYSET is bigger in thefire world than it is in access
control.
I don't think I've ever seenanybody mention NISAT in a spec
for an access control.
Honestly, most people don'tspec.
They only spec that you havebeen certified on that specific
(36:50):
brand.
So you need, like let's say it'sHirsch.
You would have to have a Herschidentic certified tech on staff
to bid the project.
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