September 24, 2025 • 26 mins
This episode covers how a Chief of Staff can address two teams stuck in a blame game at a biotech startup. Emily shares examples like holding one-on-one meetings with managers and team members, presenting anonymized feedback, setting clear expectations for team behavior, and publicly reinforcing new team norms. He explains how to reset the group dynamic so everyone understands the new way forward and knows “pointing fingers” is no longer acceptable.
Links Mentioned:
Free Resources:
- Strategic Planning Checklist
- Chief of Staff Skills Assessment Checklist
- A Day in the Life of a Chief of Staff
- Chief of Staff Toolkit
Get in Touch With Emily:
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Follow on YouTube
- Learn more about coaching
- Sign up for the newsletter
- Clarity Call with Emily
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:36 The Rigorous Interview Process
01:32 Scenario: Teams in Conflict
03:02 Initial Steps: One-on-One Meetings
03:45 Gathering and Reporting Data
04:40 Facilitating Understanding and Communication
08:48 Reiterating Departmental Changes
10:49 Setting New Team Expectations
20:44 Reinforcing the New Structure
26:01 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_07-30-2025_ (00:25):
What do you do as chief of staff when
two teams are playing the blamegame and pointing fingers and
you as chief of staff, are sentin to facilitate a way forward?
This is the case with the chiefof staff that I'm going back and
forth with who is actually inthe interview process for the
role of chief of staff.
This has, this is a, a biotechstartup.
(00:49):
This is a pretty thoroughinterview process that I'm quite
impressed by.
To be honest, most startups are,are moving fast and like just
get someone in here and likemaybe we'll spend some extra
time.
'cause it's an executive, butthis process has been weeks, if
not I think almost two monthsnow and there's been.
Virtual meetings on Zoom.
There's been in-person meetings,multiple in-person meetings.
(01:11):
It's been with the founder, it'sbeen with the executive team,
and it's even been with selectmembers of the management team.
That's impressive to me.
a previous episode we had onhere talked about how top
performers and high achieverswant a rigorous and selective
interview process.
So I think this is a greatexample of that happening here
with just with this chief ofstaff.
(01:32):
One item that's been coming upin this part of the interview
process, she's pretty far alongthe interview process in final
rounds, and they've given her anactual scenario that's happening
in the company, which is, Hey,we have these two teams and
they're not getting along.
They're defensive, they'reterritorial, they're always
pointing fingers.
It's just like a blame game allthe time.
(01:53):
They're were some recent.
Departmental changes.
So structural changes that thatex exacerbated this basically.
So that's the high level contextof what she's walking into.
They, they said, meet with thetwo managers as part of this
interview process.
Meet with the two managers ofthe two teams, and then give us
your high level debrief notesfrom that.
(02:16):
And they like that and theywanted more.
And they said, okay, so now wewant more information about how
you would approach this for youto come in as chief of staff.
So what would you do in yourfirst 30 days with this
particular issue?
So talk to us more about whatyou would need in order to help
solution this the best goingforward.
She and I were going back andforth, back and forth on ideas
(02:39):
and different ways to structureand position the recommendation
and go forward plan.
I wanna share some highlights ofthose exchanges with you here
because I know this is a commontopic with aspiring chiefs of
staff in the interview process,or with existing chiefs of staff
who have two teams who are atloggerheads and can't find a way
to move forward together.
So here's some of the thingsthat we went back and forth on,
(02:59):
and you can pick up ones thatresonate or are relevant to you.
And then obviously discardanything else that isn't helpful
So the first thing is shealready had the one-on-ones with
the managers.
I think that's the first step.
In this process, uh, fast followwould be having one-on-one
meetings with individuals on theteam.
Now, if you're at a largercompany, this might not be as
(03:21):
feasible if there's likehundreds and hundreds of people
on the team.
You don't, might not have time,but if you're in a situation, in
this case, there's um, coupledozen people, so it will take
some time, but it's feasible todo so.
Taking the time to meetindividually with all the team
members and really getting asense of how they're perceiving
(03:41):
the situation Let's dig intothose and open those up a bit.
So really getting some on theground data points from people
doing this day to day and themanagement team.
From there, you can do ananonymized roll up report.
So meaning what this is not is ablow by blow of like, well I
(04:02):
spoke with Emily and she saidthis, this and this, and then
Raul was like this, this andthis.
And then Sean was like, this,this, and this.
It's not a play by play likethat, it's here are the main
themes that came out of allthese conversations I just had.
Here are the main.
Patterns, and here's clearly apain point.
Every person said this over hereand over here, like 90% of
(04:24):
people were talking about thesame situation, same scenario.
They get really frustrated by.
So those thematic pieces comeup.
You can do the report out to theleadership team.
I would recommend that I wouldalso do it to the managers and
the teams themselves.
I think this is important, andthis is where you can frame this
up in a way where the initialdebrief of the findings from the
(04:48):
report is not to do anything.
It's not to assign blame ordeclare a winner.
It is simply to understand thesituation more fully at the end
of the meeting than you didwalking in at the beginning of
the meeting.
Another way to say that is if Iknow more about why the other
(05:09):
team has that perception, don'thave to agree with it
necessarily, but I understandhow they get there, and I didn't
understand that before.
That's a win.
That's all we're doing in thismeeting.
You don't even have toparticipate in this meeting.
You just sit there, team A andTB, and you listen, and you take
in and you hear the report outand the anonymized rollup of all
(05:31):
these conversations.
That might be a next step.
So you're not defending it,you're not saying Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
But or like, no, no, no.
In that situation, like, don'tforget like you did this over
here.
No, no, no, no, no.
We're not talking about.
It might be a, i, I had a formercolleague who was like, this is
a shut your lips and learnmeeting.
(05:52):
Uh, I love that phrase.
So it might be one of those, youmight not use that phrase, or
you might use that phrase whereit's like, Hey, this is not
where we say anything.
I'm gonna talk and you're gonnalisten.
It might be one of those, but tobetter understand.
So the goal of this meeting isjust to understand more at the
end of the meeting than you doright now.
That could be the preface of thething.
Then subsequent meetings couldbe around.
Okay.
Now that you've had a little bitof time to digest that, maybe
(06:15):
get people's thoughts or generalreactions.
Maybe you give them some promptson some language to use though,
where like, we're not going to,we're not gonna say you and
point a finger'cause that justtriggers people.
But maybe talk about a situationor, when this type of thing
happens that makes me feel likethis.
Or shared observation or justexperience or a factual set of
(06:37):
data.
So, you know, if I receive aslack message that says this,
this, and this in this tone,this is how I respond.
This is how I, I receive that.
You don't wanna linger there.
You don't wanna spend a wholebunch of time there and get into
like blow by blow, let's beateach other up and get all riled
up about this thing.
But you might need to hold spaceand leave room for that.
And all of this should be underthe umbrella of and in alignment
(07:01):
to, we're trying to betterunderstand.
We're not trying to make peopleangry, we're not trying to
defend ourselves.
It's just simply a data point.
So other folks can betterunderstand.
And maybe you kind of front runthis with some folks and say,
Hey, I think you had a reallygood example here.
Would you mind sharing that in,in a, in a, in a way, you know,
(07:21):
talk to them about what you'retrying to do.
And if they're like, yep, I cando that and not escalate things,
then maybe you have one or twofolks on team may and one or two
folks on team B.
And then if you wanna get like,really kind of, uh, executive
therapist e on this, whichsometimes you play as chief of
staff, right?
You're, you're a full chief ofstaff, you facilitate things and
(07:41):
sometimes you gotta lean prettyhard on the wall of executive
therapists, sometimes with yourprincipal, sometimes with
members of the executive team.
And sometimes when you arefacilitating and almost
mediating to teams, so.
You have folks say, here's anexample of what's come up for
me.
Just so you better understand,you have some other folks say,
here's an example of whathappens to me, or how I feel
(08:04):
when this happens.
Just to better understand.
And then you might have thosefolks reciprocate, meaning they
say something like, I understandhow, if I felt like no one was
helping me and they had theinformation to help me, how that
could be extremely frustratingand just acknowledge the other
(08:25):
side's point of view.
or I acknowledge that when, whenthis slack message goes out.
And no response happens thatcould be taken as someone
withholding information.
Even if it's just like peopleare busy or there's multiple
reasons I can understand.
I acknowledge that one reason is'cause people have read that and
(08:46):
choose not to reply.
Something like that.
The next thing I would move intois reiterating or reconfirming
why the departmental changeshappened.
So if there was a big piece ofthe background here, a piece of
context where, okay, this iskind of what precipitated this
latest round or this latestspike of we're not getting
along, then let's remind folksand maybe they didn't know for
(09:09):
the first time.
So tell folks why these changeswent through, why leadership
thought it was a good idea tomake these org structure changes
with these departments andteams.
Putting that in the big pictureof where we're trying to go.
And you might have already saidthis to folks, or you might, you
might feel like you've alreadysaid this to folks like Emily, I
(09:30):
sent the fricking all companyemail newsflash.
Not everyone reads your emailsand not everyone reads your
emails word for word.
Also, some people might havebeen out that day, it
accidentally went in their likejunk folder or they deleted it
really quick'cause they weregoing through emails to catch
back up.
You don't know, some peoplemight not like to read long,
(09:50):
long air, uh, emails andparagraphs.
Maybe they like to hearinformation, like to have people
tell them and have a discussionabout, that's how they take in
information best.
So, you know, just putting itout there.
If you feel like I already saidthis, they should know why this
happened.
They should know why thisoccurred.
Maybe they should, but maybethey don't.
And so you have to repeat it.
So I would reiterate.
(10:12):
Why the departmental changeswent through.
And again, some people candisagree with that.
I don't, I I, I hear what you'resaying, but we shouldn't have
done that.
But if they understand why ithappened, and they're like,
okay, I hate this, this isstupid, but I could see how they
logic their way over to thisdepartmental change.
that's baseline what you'relooking for.
(10:32):
If it's a, oh, no, shoot, okay.
I know she said something likethat in her all hands email, but
now that he's saying that again,no.
Okay, I understand.
Big, like, long term, long term.
This makes sense.
Okay, we're gonna grow and longterm, we gotta set that up like
this.
That's the kind of thing you'relooking for.
Okay, next piece of this, whichis the big piece like this, is
(10:52):
this is the, the inflectionpoint or the tipping point where
you can, you can change thedynamic of these teams.
So you wanna set up a paradigmshift of basically, here's the
old way of doing things andhere's the new way of doing
things.
And a prime example of the newway we're gonna do things is
(11:14):
this is what it means to be onthis team now.
If you can use a term thatincludes both of these teams.
Maybe it's the department, maybeit's the company, maybe it's
like whatever term or phraseworks for your particular
company and setup here whereyou're including everyone on, on
both team A and B.
What it means to be part of thisteam now is this, this, and
(11:38):
this.
You give them north stars, youset a direction.
These can be somewhat broadterms, maybe they're more
specific, but you know, just asan example here, like team
player, um, proactive, solutionoriented, problem solving, um,
helpful.
Like these are, these are justexamples off the top of my head,
(11:58):
but find kind of thematic thingsthat you can hook your hat on
and say, this is what it meansto be on this team now.
By the way, what this does notinclude is pointing fingers and
keeping grudges and making lifedifficult for people.
That's not included here.
So you give them one, two, maybethree North stars, big
directional pieces.
(12:19):
Then I would have two or threespecific examples, and these
could come out of the individualconversations you had with folks
from managers, from the initialkind of exchanges between the
teams.
If you've had that from initialconversations with the
leadership team in that rollout.
So you can pull these fromdifferent places, but if there
(12:39):
was clearly like, okay, everyoneis pissed about, this Slack
channel or what happens overhere, these client calls, or
whatever it is, if you've pickedout like, look, all of Team B
said this and 90% of teammatessaid this.
These are clearly things thatbug people.
You could use those as examples.
So for instance, this is, thisis for example, um, what it
(13:01):
means to be on this team now isto be a team player.
One example of that is ifsomeone asks a question in this
slack channel, where it's,supposed to be, or escalations
go or whatever urgent items go,and they've done the initial
pull of data they can from theirside, then there should be,
informative, helpful, prompt,and professional reply back.
(13:27):
and that can be just oneexample.
It could be on client calls, Weneed to have a united front for
our external clients.
It doesn't matter what'shappening internally.
We're the company to this, tothese clients.
So we need to make sure that wehave prep calls, internal prep
calls as much as possible.
And if we don't have time forprep calls, when we get on the
(13:49):
call with the client, everyoneinternally needs to give other
team members the benefit of thedoubt.
And it might be covering forfolks if they don't happen to
have that information rightthere and they should, or they
have access to it, but you havethat information'cause you've
happened to pull it.
These are just examples, but youhopefully, you know what I'm
saying here.
So giving some of some specificexamples off of the key thematic
(14:13):
elements.
Importantly, when you give theseexamples, try to make it so it's
not, oh, she's just going withside A or, oh, I guess she's on
team B side.
Don't make them blatantly justlike, okay, I'm picking this
side, I'm picking that side.
They're right, you're wrong,type of thing.
If the solution that team Btends to lean toward is the most
(14:36):
logical one and given objectivecriteria, you would come to that
conclusion as well.
I would say that, and then givethe reasons why you're coming to
that conclusion or why you'remaking that an example, which is
not because Team B said so, it's'cause of these different
objective markers.
And then if it's super touchyand super tricky and you kind of
(14:57):
have to use that example, Iwould try to pick another
example where it leans heavilytoward team A.
So if you have to kind of playthat game, at least make it even
and fair in that sense.
Hopefully you can find anexample where, hey, I'm not
talking about side A and side B,I'm talking about how we get to
a good decision, likeobjectively like this is, this
(15:19):
is an appropriate and fair andreasonable way to go where, hey,
you asked this in the Slackchannel, you've gotta make sure
you've pulled all theinformation that you can so
you're not asking people to dowork that you could have done.
And then if that's theappropriate spot to put it in
and people need this informationto maybe help a client out, then
if another team.
(15:39):
Has access to the other part ofthe information.
They need to supply that and doso in, in a team-like manner, in
a collaborative manner.
They don't need to be nasty.
They don't need to be like, howstupid and how lazy are you for
not pulling your, your stuff?
you can talk about thoseexchanges in, in a way that's
neither I'm going with this sideor I'm going with that side.
(16:00):
This is just how we're gonna dothings.
This is just an example of howwe're gonna do things going
forward.
Okay?
So you have those.
Here's where it means to be ateam member on this new team.
Here are the expectations thatwe have of people.
And you're saying this in frontof everybody, right?
There might be a few selectpeople you're really talking to,
but honestly, this is foreverybody.
I'm talking to everybody.
(16:21):
Everyone's hearing the samething.
There's no, he said, she said,da, da, da.
You're hearing it from me acrossthe board.
Here's what we're looking for,for top performers, for high
achievers, for people who wannabe successful on this team.
All those types of words peoplecan pick up on, right?
We're looking for this type ofthing, inherent in that, and
sometimes you're bla, you'regonna blatantly say this, what
(16:43):
we're not looking for is X, Y,and Z.
We're not looking for people whopoint fingers.
we're not looking for people whodon't give others the benefit of
the doubt, who assume illintent.
We're not looking for who causemore trouble than they're worth.
Like whatever phrasing you wannause there.
But sometimes it's a, it's aimplied thing where you don't
(17:04):
have to say it, but you're kindof saying it and you're getting
the point across.
And if you have to hammer it onthe head, then you go, what
we're not looking for is X, Y,and Z.
I would do like a dramatic pauseif you need to throw that out
there.
I would do like a pause toreally let that sink in.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
They're kind of calling me outhere.
(17:25):
Okay.
But they're setting theexpectation.
They're resetting theexpectation, and you wanna have
this be a catalyst, aninflection point.
This is the line of demarcation.
before we were doing it thatway.
And now we're doing it this way.
And sometimes I've heard peoplesay this too.
I've said this at times, like,you need to get on board or
you're gonna get off board.
(17:47):
Sometimes it's to that level.
I'm not saying like default tothere.
If everything's like, Hey, likeEmily, like we're having a
little problem on the team.
But it's, it's casual.
You know, it's, it's the normalcourse of business.
We're not a DEFCON one.
I wouldn't go in there makingultimatums, but sometimes you
get to a point where it's like,look, just to be clear, I'm
saying this in front ofeveryone.
I can have follow-upconversations with people
(18:07):
individually, but this is whatwe're looking for for this new
team.
So people can get on board withthis program or they can get off
board and getting off board canbe a voluntary quit.
It can be a self optout, Hey,this is not for me.
Cool.
No problem.
Beautiful.
I wish you well.
And it can also be a hey, as anindividual conversation or
series of conversations as afollow up.
(18:28):
We've, we've set these newexpectations here.
You're not meeting them in theseobjective ways.
We need you to get on board withthis and give them
opportunities, give themawareness, give them tools, give
them whatever.
And if they can't do it, thenthey might need to be off the
team.
They might need to be exitedoff.
The team terminated.
Fired.
That is part of being a goodleader and being a good manager.
(18:49):
All right.
Another element in all this iswhen you move from the old to
the new, you, you almost wannanot startle people.
That's kind of the wrong word.
You, you wanna pull the tectonicplates out from under people.
You wanna pull the carpet outfrom under people.
You don't have anything to standon anymore.
The old grudges and the oldworld order, so to speak, you
(19:12):
were standing on before is gone.
It's just gone.
It dissolved, it got taken away.
It should be like a little bitjarring to people.
And in doing that one, one thingthat come out can come out of
that that's beneficial isthere's no winners or losers
anymore.
You've just kind of level seteveryone and you've baselined
(19:35):
everyone and you're doing aclean slate.
So there's no, there's, there's,hmm.
You're helping people save face.
If there's winners or losers inthe old battle, then I wanna
know who won.
And I wanna know who lost.
I wanna win.
I don't wanna be wrong, I wannabe right.
I wanna be declared the victor.
If there's a final battle goingon here, before we split this, I
(19:56):
wanna be declared the victor.
And you just, you just wipe allthat away and you redefine what
winning is in a collectivesense.
Here's what it means to be ateam member.
Here's what it means to be a topperformer.
Here's how this team wins now.
And you make that very clear.
And so you get rid of all theother stuff.
And it allows people to just letstuff go.
(20:19):
And in that, it allows'em tosave face and a lot of times
make people's pride and ego getin this stuff.
Myself included, I've been here,we're like, I don't like to be
wrong.
Guess what?
I'm sure shit not gonna be wrongin front of this person.
No way I'll dig my heels in.
But you allow people a way out.
So part of this is justreframing this whole thing at a
fundamental level where you justtake all that old stuff away and
(20:42):
here's what we we're looking forgoing forward.
Then as a fast follow and as acontinued follow to all this is,
you've gotta reinforce the newstructure, So little slack
messages, little client callsthat you overhear, little email
exchanges, little things thatyou hear where like a team
member is backing someone elseup and giving someone the
(21:03):
benefit of the doubt and helpingtheir teammate out and covering
for folks on a client call orwhatever.
You pick up on these things.
You listen for these things,both the good and the bad, where
it's like, Hey, hey, hey.
Remember, remember nudge, nudge,nudge?
And it might be like, Hey,remember?
Okay, got it.
Just remember, just rememberwe're good, but just remember,
and it might be, oh my gosh,here's some examples of people
(21:24):
getting on board.
Here's some examples of thisteam really moving forward
together.
Call those out.
Call those out on like a kudosSlack channel.
Call those out on a teammeeting, like week to week team
meeting.
Call those out on an all handsmeeting if that's appropriate,
but make sure people know youare looking for.
You are highlighting and you arerewarding and recognizing when
(21:45):
people get on board with what itmeans to be a new team member on
this new team.
All that stuff has to bereinforced in big ways.
Medium ways and little tinyday-to-day ways where it's like,
whoa.
Oh, she saw that.
Okay.
I mean that's kind of silly.
She's calling that out on an allhands meeting, but I'll take it.
I'll take it.
I did back up Maria on thatcall, so I'll take it.
Cool.
Yeah, I'm a good team member.
So reinforcing it in all thoselittle ways, what tends to come
(22:09):
out of this whole process overthe subsequent weeks and months
is three groups will emerge.
Group one is, I'm on board, thismakes sense.
I can do this.
Uh, I might have disagreed witha little bit about the
departmental change.
I might have been one of thepeople like kind of playing
along with the side A againstside B, but I totally get what
(22:30):
we're doing now.
If we're gonna grow as acompany, we've gotta grow up,
we've gotta mature as a team.
I'm on board.
Second group is Mm mm I don'tlike the new world order.
I think it's stupid.
I think it's silly.
I think it's woo woo.
I think it's soft and I thinkwe're gonna stay right where we
are.
So guess what?
I'm gonna set up camp here.
(22:50):
I'm gonna lean back.
I'm gonna dig my heels in andyou try to move me.
Group three is, I don't reallycare.
Like I, we've had these teammeetings.
You did the one-on-ones, you didthe debrief.
I was there for it.
I listened.
It was fine, but I don't reallycare either way.
You want me to do something newin Slack?
Cool.
You want me to do a client calla different way?
Cool.
I don't care.
I like this job, but I don'treally care about this stuff.
(23:10):
I don't have a deep dog in thisfight.
Great.
Like group three is awesome.
They're like, yeah, you'refantastic.
Lemme just give you a hug.
And like, you go on your way andit's, and it's fine.
You're neutral, you're fine.
What tends to happen, notalways, but what tends to happen
is leaders will emerge fromgroup one.
So you might say, okay, let mekeep an eye on.
(23:31):
Who can see the big picture?
Who can see long term?
Who can connect those dots?
Who is helping their teammembers get on board with this?
Who's helping the team moveforward?
Who's raising their hand?
Who's making the first move?
When it's hard?
Those tend to be your potentialfuture leaders.
It might be, oh, let me keepthat person in mind to be a lead
(23:53):
on the team.
As the team grows, we're gonnaneed leads, and we're eventually
gonna need managers and maybedirectors and VPs and all these
things.
Let me keep an eye on thesefolks.
In group two, you might be like,okay, we've got some people who
are entrenched.
Let me talk to them one-on-one.
Let me try to get them on aone-on-one basis and get them on
board.
Sometimes this works andsometimes it just takes time,
(24:15):
and sometimes it takesone-on-one attention.
Sometimes it doesn't workbecause someone is incapable or
unwilling to make the changeneeded, and in that case,
sometimes a change is needed.
The, the getting rid of underperformers is equally as
important as recognizing andpromoting your top performers.
(24:38):
Because if you have a team wherepeople are doing a good job and
doing an honest day's work andworking hard, and they see,
well, this person who's notdoing their job, who's causing
all sorts of trouble, who is apain in the butt to work with,
every time I have to interactwith them, if they're allowed on
this team and they're beinglike, maybe even recognized for
being good at this, like, whatare we talking about here?
(25:00):
So it demoralizes the team inthat sense.
So part of your job and part ofyour job all the time.
Is to look for and recognizeyour top performers and under
performers and address thoseaccordingly.
But especially in theseinflection points where, okay,
we've, we've had theconversation, we've done the
paradigm shift, we've setexpectations in that aftermath,
(25:22):
those weeks and monthsafterward.
This is where you kind of likehave shaken things up and then
you watch where things settleand you watch where people
settle too.
It's like, oh, okay.
Oh, dark horse.
Hey, okay, didn't expect that,but let's keep an eye on that
for sure.
And like, okay, yep.
Nope, she was never gonna get onboard.
Now she's making it worse, andnow she's going crazy.
(25:44):
Okay, now I have to addressthat.
So you kind of can, can seethese in a different light.
And it's just something to keepan eye on.
When, uh, when things like thishappen, who emerges, who steps
up and who just gets complacentor entrenched in the old way of
doing things and can't bust outof that, Alright, so those were
just some of the highlightsthat, uh, that happened in this
(26:05):
exchange with this chief ofstaff in this interview round.
And I know, like with everythingI say, take what's relevant and
useful and resonates with youand discard the rest.
I know there are, there aredifferent combinations and
permutations and ways this rollsout and yeah, but Emily, what
about this?
Or no, Emily, like that didn'thappen in my case type of
situation.
So I, I understand that if youhave a specific question or a
(26:27):
specific scenario, feel free toshoot me an email, Emily at next
level coach, you can find me onLinkedIn or just drop something
in the comments.
But, um, hopefully some of thishas been helpful or at least
food for thought for you and Iwill catch you next time on
leveraging leadership.
What do you do as chief of staff when
two teams are playing the blamegame and pointing fingers and
you as chief of staff, are sentin to facilitate a way forward?
This is the case with the chiefof staff that I'm going back and
forth with who is actually inthe interview process for the
role of chief of staff.
This has, this is a, a biotechstartup.
(00:49):
This is a pretty thoroughinterview process that I'm quite
impressed by.
To be honest, most startups are,are moving fast and like just
get someone in here and likemaybe we'll spend some extra
time.
'cause it's an executive, butthis process has been weeks, if
not I think almost two monthsnow and there's been.
Virtual meetings on Zoom.
There's been in-person meetings,multiple in-person meetings.
(01:11):
It's been with the founder, it'sbeen with the executive team,
and it's even been with selectmembers of the management team.
That's impressive to me.
a previous episode we had onhere talked about how top
performers and high achieverswant a rigorous and selective
interview process.
So I think this is a greatexample of that happening here
with just with this chief ofstaff.
(01:32):
One item that's been coming upin this part of the interview
process, she's pretty far alongthe interview process in final
rounds, and they've given her anactual scenario that's happening
in the company, which is, Hey,we have these two teams and
they're not getting along.
They're defensive, they'reterritorial, they're always
pointing fingers.
It's just like a blame game allthe time.
(01:53):
They're were some recent.
Departmental changes.
So structural changes that thatex exacerbated this basically.
So that's the high level contextof what she's walking into.
They, they said, meet with thetwo managers as part of this
interview process.
Meet with the two managers ofthe two teams, and then give us
your high level debrief notesfrom that.
(02:16):
And they like that and theywanted more.
And they said, okay, so now wewant more information about how
you would approach this for youto come in as chief of staff.
So what would you do in yourfirst 30 days with this
particular issue?
So talk to us more about whatyou would need in order to help
solution this the best goingforward.
She and I were going back andforth, back and forth on ideas
(02:39):
and different ways to structureand position the recommendation
and go forward plan.
I wanna share some highlights ofthose exchanges with you here
because I know this is a commontopic with aspiring chiefs of
staff in the interview process,or with existing chiefs of staff
who have two teams who are atloggerheads and can't find a way
to move forward together.
So here's some of the thingsthat we went back and forth on,
(02:59):
and you can pick up ones thatresonate or are relevant to you.
And then obviously discardanything else that isn't helpful
So the first thing is shealready had the one-on-ones with
the managers.
I think that's the first step.
In this process, uh, fast followwould be having one-on-one
meetings with individuals on theteam.
Now, if you're at a largercompany, this might not be as
(03:21):
feasible if there's likehundreds and hundreds of people
on the team.
You don't, might not have time,but if you're in a situation, in
this case, there's um, coupledozen people, so it will take
some time, but it's feasible todo so.
Taking the time to meetindividually with all the team
members and really getting asense of how they're perceiving
(03:41):
the situation Let's dig intothose and open those up a bit.
So really getting some on theground data points from people
doing this day to day and themanagement team.
From there, you can do ananonymized roll up report.
So meaning what this is not is ablow by blow of like, well I
(04:02):
spoke with Emily and she saidthis, this and this, and then
Raul was like this, this andthis.
And then Sean was like, this,this, and this.
It's not a play by play likethat, it's here are the main
themes that came out of allthese conversations I just had.
Here are the main.
Patterns, and here's clearly apain point.
Every person said this over hereand over here, like 90% of
(04:24):
people were talking about thesame situation, same scenario.
They get really frustrated by.
So those thematic pieces comeup.
You can do the report out to theleadership team.
I would recommend that I wouldalso do it to the managers and
the teams themselves.
I think this is important, andthis is where you can frame this
up in a way where the initialdebrief of the findings from the
(04:48):
report is not to do anything.
It's not to assign blame ordeclare a winner.
It is simply to understand thesituation more fully at the end
of the meeting than you didwalking in at the beginning of
the meeting.
Another way to say that is if Iknow more about why the other
(05:09):
team has that perception, don'thave to agree with it
necessarily, but I understandhow they get there, and I didn't
understand that before.
That's a win.
That's all we're doing in thismeeting.
You don't even have toparticipate in this meeting.
You just sit there, team A andTB, and you listen, and you take
in and you hear the report outand the anonymized rollup of all
(05:31):
these conversations.
That might be a next step.
So you're not defending it,you're not saying Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.
But or like, no, no, no.
In that situation, like, don'tforget like you did this over
here.
No, no, no, no, no.
We're not talking about.
It might be a, i, I had a formercolleague who was like, this is
a shut your lips and learnmeeting.
(05:52):
Uh, I love that phrase.
So it might be one of those, youmight not use that phrase, or
you might use that phrase whereit's like, Hey, this is not
where we say anything.
I'm gonna talk and you're gonnalisten.
It might be one of those, but tobetter understand.
So the goal of this meeting isjust to understand more at the
end of the meeting than you doright now.
That could be the preface of thething.
Then subsequent meetings couldbe around.
Okay.
Now that you've had a little bitof time to digest that, maybe
(06:15):
get people's thoughts or generalreactions.
Maybe you give them some promptson some language to use though,
where like, we're not going to,we're not gonna say you and
point a finger'cause that justtriggers people.
But maybe talk about a situationor, when this type of thing
happens that makes me feel likethis.
Or shared observation or justexperience or a factual set of
(06:37):
data.
So, you know, if I receive aslack message that says this,
this, and this in this tone,this is how I respond.
This is how I, I receive that.
You don't wanna linger there.
You don't wanna spend a wholebunch of time there and get into
like blow by blow, let's beateach other up and get all riled
up about this thing.
But you might need to hold spaceand leave room for that.
And all of this should be underthe umbrella of and in alignment
(07:01):
to, we're trying to betterunderstand.
We're not trying to make peopleangry, we're not trying to
defend ourselves.
It's just simply a data point.
So other folks can betterunderstand.
And maybe you kind of front runthis with some folks and say,
Hey, I think you had a reallygood example here.
Would you mind sharing that in,in a, in a, in a way, you know,
(07:21):
talk to them about what you'retrying to do.
And if they're like, yep, I cando that and not escalate things,
then maybe you have one or twofolks on team may and one or two
folks on team B.
And then if you wanna get like,really kind of, uh, executive
therapist e on this, whichsometimes you play as chief of
staff, right?
You're, you're a full chief ofstaff, you facilitate things and
(07:41):
sometimes you gotta lean prettyhard on the wall of executive
therapists, sometimes with yourprincipal, sometimes with
members of the executive team.
And sometimes when you arefacilitating and almost
mediating to teams, so.
You have folks say, here's anexample of what's come up for
me.
Just so you better understand,you have some other folks say,
here's an example of whathappens to me, or how I feel
(08:04):
when this happens.
Just to better understand.
And then you might have thosefolks reciprocate, meaning they
say something like, I understandhow, if I felt like no one was
helping me and they had theinformation to help me, how that
could be extremely frustratingand just acknowledge the other
(08:25):
side's point of view.
or I acknowledge that when, whenthis slack message goes out.
And no response happens thatcould be taken as someone
withholding information.
Even if it's just like peopleare busy or there's multiple
reasons I can understand.
I acknowledge that one reason is'cause people have read that and
(08:46):
choose not to reply.
Something like that.
The next thing I would move intois reiterating or reconfirming
why the departmental changeshappened.
So if there was a big piece ofthe background here, a piece of
context where, okay, this iskind of what precipitated this
latest round or this latestspike of we're not getting
along, then let's remind folksand maybe they didn't know for
(09:09):
the first time.
So tell folks why these changeswent through, why leadership
thought it was a good idea tomake these org structure changes
with these departments andteams.
Putting that in the big pictureof where we're trying to go.
And you might have already saidthis to folks, or you might, you
might feel like you've alreadysaid this to folks like Emily, I
(09:30):
sent the fricking all companyemail newsflash.
Not everyone reads your emailsand not everyone reads your
emails word for word.
Also, some people might havebeen out that day, it
accidentally went in their likejunk folder or they deleted it
really quick'cause they weregoing through emails to catch
back up.
You don't know, some peoplemight not like to read long,
(09:50):
long air, uh, emails andparagraphs.
Maybe they like to hearinformation, like to have people
tell them and have a discussionabout, that's how they take in
information best.
So, you know, just putting itout there.
If you feel like I already saidthis, they should know why this
happened.
They should know why thisoccurred.
Maybe they should, but maybethey don't.
And so you have to repeat it.
So I would reiterate.
(10:12):
Why the departmental changeswent through.
And again, some people candisagree with that.
I don't, I I, I hear what you'resaying, but we shouldn't have
done that.
But if they understand why ithappened, and they're like,
okay, I hate this, this isstupid, but I could see how they
logic their way over to thisdepartmental change.
that's baseline what you'relooking for.
(10:32):
If it's a, oh, no, shoot, okay.
I know she said something likethat in her all hands email, but
now that he's saying that again,no.
Okay, I understand.
Big, like, long term, long term.
This makes sense.
Okay, we're gonna grow and longterm, we gotta set that up like
this.
That's the kind of thing you'relooking for.
Okay, next piece of this, whichis the big piece like this, is
(10:52):
this is the, the inflectionpoint or the tipping point where
you can, you can change thedynamic of these teams.
So you wanna set up a paradigmshift of basically, here's the
old way of doing things andhere's the new way of doing
things.
And a prime example of the newway we're gonna do things is
(11:14):
this is what it means to be onthis team now.
If you can use a term thatincludes both of these teams.
Maybe it's the department, maybeit's the company, maybe it's
like whatever term or phraseworks for your particular
company and setup here whereyou're including everyone on, on
both team A and B.
What it means to be part of thisteam now is this, this, and
(11:38):
this.
You give them north stars, youset a direction.
These can be somewhat broadterms, maybe they're more
specific, but you know, just asan example here, like team
player, um, proactive, solutionoriented, problem solving, um,
helpful.
Like these are, these are justexamples off the top of my head,
(11:58):
but find kind of thematic thingsthat you can hook your hat on
and say, this is what it meansto be on this team now.
By the way, what this does notinclude is pointing fingers and
keeping grudges and making lifedifficult for people.
That's not included here.
So you give them one, two, maybethree North stars, big
directional pieces.
(12:19):
Then I would have two or threespecific examples, and these
could come out of the individualconversations you had with folks
from managers, from the initialkind of exchanges between the
teams.
If you've had that from initialconversations with the
leadership team in that rollout.
So you can pull these fromdifferent places, but if there
(12:39):
was clearly like, okay, everyoneis pissed about, this Slack
channel or what happens overhere, these client calls, or
whatever it is, if you've pickedout like, look, all of Team B
said this and 90% of teammatessaid this.
These are clearly things thatbug people.
You could use those as examples.
So for instance, this is, thisis for example, um, what it
(13:01):
means to be on this team now isto be a team player.
One example of that is ifsomeone asks a question in this
slack channel, where it's,supposed to be, or escalations
go or whatever urgent items go,and they've done the initial
pull of data they can from theirside, then there should be,
informative, helpful, prompt,and professional reply back.
(13:27):
and that can be just oneexample.
It could be on client calls, Weneed to have a united front for
our external clients.
It doesn't matter what'shappening internally.
We're the company to this, tothese clients.
So we need to make sure that wehave prep calls, internal prep
calls as much as possible.
And if we don't have time forprep calls, when we get on the
(13:49):
call with the client, everyoneinternally needs to give other
team members the benefit of thedoubt.
And it might be covering forfolks if they don't happen to
have that information rightthere and they should, or they
have access to it, but you havethat information'cause you've
happened to pull it.
These are just examples, but youhopefully, you know what I'm
saying here.
So giving some of some specificexamples off of the key thematic
(14:13):
elements.
Importantly, when you give theseexamples, try to make it so it's
not, oh, she's just going withside A or, oh, I guess she's on
team B side.
Don't make them blatantly justlike, okay, I'm picking this
side, I'm picking that side.
They're right, you're wrong,type of thing.
If the solution that team Btends to lean toward is the most
(14:36):
logical one and given objectivecriteria, you would come to that
conclusion as well.
I would say that, and then givethe reasons why you're coming to
that conclusion or why you'remaking that an example, which is
not because Team B said so, it's'cause of these different
objective markers.
And then if it's super touchyand super tricky and you kind of
(14:57):
have to use that example, Iwould try to pick another
example where it leans heavilytoward team A.
So if you have to kind of playthat game, at least make it even
and fair in that sense.
Hopefully you can find anexample where, hey, I'm not
talking about side A and side B,I'm talking about how we get to
a good decision, likeobjectively like this is, this
(15:19):
is an appropriate and fair andreasonable way to go where, hey,
you asked this in the Slackchannel, you've gotta make sure
you've pulled all theinformation that you can so
you're not asking people to dowork that you could have done.
And then if that's theappropriate spot to put it in
and people need this informationto maybe help a client out, then
if another team.
(15:39):
Has access to the other part ofthe information.
They need to supply that and doso in, in a team-like manner, in
a collaborative manner.
They don't need to be nasty.
They don't need to be like, howstupid and how lazy are you for
not pulling your, your stuff?
you can talk about thoseexchanges in, in a way that's
neither I'm going with this sideor I'm going with that side.
(16:00):
This is just how we're gonna dothings.
This is just an example of howwe're gonna do things going
forward.
Okay?
So you have those.
Here's where it means to be ateam member on this new team.
Here are the expectations thatwe have of people.
And you're saying this in frontof everybody, right?
There might be a few selectpeople you're really talking to,
but honestly, this is foreverybody.
I'm talking to everybody.
(16:21):
Everyone's hearing the samething.
There's no, he said, she said,da, da, da.
You're hearing it from me acrossthe board.
Here's what we're looking for,for top performers, for high
achievers, for people who wannabe successful on this team.
All those types of words peoplecan pick up on, right?
We're looking for this type ofthing, inherent in that, and
sometimes you're bla, you'regonna blatantly say this, what
(16:43):
we're not looking for is X, Y,and Z.
We're not looking for people whopoint fingers.
we're not looking for people whodon't give others the benefit of
the doubt, who assume illintent.
We're not looking for who causemore trouble than they're worth.
Like whatever phrasing you wannause there.
But sometimes it's a, it's aimplied thing where you don't
(17:04):
have to say it, but you're kindof saying it and you're getting
the point across.
And if you have to hammer it onthe head, then you go, what
we're not looking for is X, Y,and Z.
I would do like a dramatic pauseif you need to throw that out
there.
I would do like a pause toreally let that sink in.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
They're kind of calling me outhere.
(17:25):
Okay.
But they're setting theexpectation.
They're resetting theexpectation, and you wanna have
this be a catalyst, aninflection point.
This is the line of demarcation.
before we were doing it thatway.
And now we're doing it this way.
And sometimes I've heard peoplesay this too.
I've said this at times, like,you need to get on board or
you're gonna get off board.
(17:47):
Sometimes it's to that level.
I'm not saying like default tothere.
If everything's like, Hey, likeEmily, like we're having a
little problem on the team.
But it's, it's casual.
You know, it's, it's the normalcourse of business.
We're not a DEFCON one.
I wouldn't go in there makingultimatums, but sometimes you
get to a point where it's like,look, just to be clear, I'm
saying this in front ofeveryone.
I can have follow-upconversations with people
(18:07):
individually, but this is whatwe're looking for for this new
team.
So people can get on board withthis program or they can get off
board and getting off board canbe a voluntary quit.
It can be a self optout, Hey,this is not for me.
Cool.
No problem.
Beautiful.
I wish you well.
And it can also be a hey, as anindividual conversation or
series of conversations as afollow up.
(18:28):
We've, we've set these newexpectations here.
You're not meeting them in theseobjective ways.
We need you to get on board withthis and give them
opportunities, give themawareness, give them tools, give
them whatever.
And if they can't do it, thenthey might need to be off the
team.
They might need to be exitedoff.
The team terminated.
Fired.
That is part of being a goodleader and being a good manager.
(18:49):
All right.
Another element in all this iswhen you move from the old to
the new, you, you almost wannanot startle people.
That's kind of the wrong word.
You, you wanna pull the tectonicplates out from under people.
You wanna pull the carpet outfrom under people.
You don't have anything to standon anymore.
The old grudges and the oldworld order, so to speak, you
(19:12):
were standing on before is gone.
It's just gone.
It dissolved, it got taken away.
It should be like a little bitjarring to people.
And in doing that one, one thingthat come out can come out of
that that's beneficial isthere's no winners or losers
anymore.
You've just kind of level seteveryone and you've baselined
(19:35):
everyone and you're doing aclean slate.
So there's no, there's, there's,hmm.
You're helping people save face.
If there's winners or losers inthe old battle, then I wanna
know who won.
And I wanna know who lost.
I wanna win.
I don't wanna be wrong, I wannabe right.
I wanna be declared the victor.
If there's a final battle goingon here, before we split this, I
(19:56):
wanna be declared the victor.
And you just, you just wipe allthat away and you redefine what
winning is in a collectivesense.
Here's what it means to be ateam member.
Here's what it means to be a topperformer.
Here's how this team wins now.
And you make that very clear.
And so you get rid of all theother stuff.
And it allows people to just letstuff go.
(20:19):
And in that, it allows'em tosave face and a lot of times
make people's pride and ego getin this stuff.
Myself included, I've been here,we're like, I don't like to be
wrong.
Guess what?
I'm sure shit not gonna be wrongin front of this person.
No way I'll dig my heels in.
But you allow people a way out.
So part of this is justreframing this whole thing at a
fundamental level where you justtake all that old stuff away and
(20:42):
here's what we we're looking forgoing forward.
Then as a fast follow and as acontinued follow to all this is,
you've gotta reinforce the newstructure, So little slack
messages, little client callsthat you overhear, little email
exchanges, little things thatyou hear where like a team
member is backing someone elseup and giving someone the
(21:03):
benefit of the doubt and helpingtheir teammate out and covering
for folks on a client call orwhatever.
You pick up on these things.
You listen for these things,both the good and the bad, where
it's like, Hey, hey, hey.
Remember, remember nudge, nudge,nudge?
And it might be like, Hey,remember?
Okay, got it.
Just remember, just rememberwe're good, but just remember,
and it might be, oh my gosh,here's some examples of people
(21:24):
getting on board.
Here's some examples of thisteam really moving forward
together.
Call those out.
Call those out on like a kudosSlack channel.
Call those out on a teammeeting, like week to week team
meeting.
Call those out on an all handsmeeting if that's appropriate,
but make sure people know youare looking for.
You are highlighting and you arerewarding and recognizing when
(21:45):
people get on board with what itmeans to be a new team member on
this new team.
All that stuff has to bereinforced in big ways.
Medium ways and little tinyday-to-day ways where it's like,
whoa.
Oh, she saw that.
Okay.
I mean that's kind of silly.
She's calling that out on an allhands meeting, but I'll take it.
I'll take it.
I did back up Maria on thatcall, so I'll take it.
Cool.
Yeah, I'm a good team member.
So reinforcing it in all thoselittle ways, what tends to come
(22:09):
out of this whole process overthe subsequent weeks and months
is three groups will emerge.
Group one is, I'm on board, thismakes sense.
I can do this.
Uh, I might have disagreed witha little bit about the
departmental change.
I might have been one of thepeople like kind of playing
along with the side A againstside B, but I totally get what
(22:30):
we're doing now.
If we're gonna grow as acompany, we've gotta grow up,
we've gotta mature as a team.
I'm on board.
Second group is Mm mm I don'tlike the new world order.
I think it's stupid.
I think it's silly.
I think it's woo woo.
I think it's soft and I thinkwe're gonna stay right where we
are.
So guess what?
I'm gonna set up camp here.
(22:50):
I'm gonna lean back.
I'm gonna dig my heels in andyou try to move me.
Group three is, I don't reallycare.
Like I, we've had these teammeetings.
You did the one-on-ones, you didthe debrief.
I was there for it.
I listened.
It was fine, but I don't reallycare either way.
You want me to do something newin Slack?
Cool.
You want me to do a client calla different way?
Cool.
I don't care.
I like this job, but I don'treally care about this stuff.
(23:10):
I don't have a deep dog in thisfight.
Great.
Like group three is awesome.
They're like, yeah, you'refantastic.
Lemme just give you a hug.
And like, you go on your way andit's, and it's fine.
You're neutral, you're fine.
What tends to happen, notalways, but what tends to happen
is leaders will emerge fromgroup one.
So you might say, okay, let mekeep an eye on.
(23:31):
Who can see the big picture?
Who can see long term?
Who can connect those dots?
Who is helping their teammembers get on board with this?
Who's helping the team moveforward?
Who's raising their hand?
Who's making the first move?
When it's hard?
Those tend to be your potentialfuture leaders.
It might be, oh, let me keepthat person in mind to be a lead
(23:53):
on the team.
As the team grows, we're gonnaneed leads, and we're eventually
gonna need managers and maybedirectors and VPs and all these
things.
Let me keep an eye on thesefolks.
In group two, you might be like,okay, we've got some people who
are entrenched.
Let me talk to them one-on-one.
Let me try to get them on aone-on-one basis and get them on
board.
Sometimes this works andsometimes it just takes time,
(24:15):
and sometimes it takesone-on-one attention.
Sometimes it doesn't workbecause someone is incapable or
unwilling to make the changeneeded, and in that case,
sometimes a change is needed.
The, the getting rid of underperformers is equally as
important as recognizing andpromoting your top performers.
(24:38):
Because if you have a team wherepeople are doing a good job and
doing an honest day's work andworking hard, and they see,
well, this person who's notdoing their job, who's causing
all sorts of trouble, who is apain in the butt to work with,
every time I have to interactwith them, if they're allowed on
this team and they're beinglike, maybe even recognized for
being good at this, like, whatare we talking about here?
(25:00):
So it demoralizes the team inthat sense.
So part of your job and part ofyour job all the time.
Is to look for and recognizeyour top performers and under
performers and address thoseaccordingly.
But especially in theseinflection points where, okay,
we've, we've had theconversation, we've done the
paradigm shift, we've setexpectations in that aftermath,
(25:22):
those weeks and monthsafterward.
This is where you kind of likehave shaken things up and then
you watch where things settleand you watch where people
settle too.
It's like, oh, okay.
Oh, dark horse.
Hey, okay, didn't expect that,but let's keep an eye on that
for sure.
And like, okay, yep.
Nope, she was never gonna get onboard.
Now she's making it worse, andnow she's going crazy.
(25:44):
Okay, now I have to addressthat.
So you kind of can, can seethese in a different light.
And it's just something to keepan eye on.
When, uh, when things like thishappen, who emerges, who steps
up and who just gets complacentor entrenched in the old way of
doing things and can't bust outof that, Alright, so those were
just some of the highlightsthat, uh, that happened in this
(26:05):
exchange with this chief ofstaff in this interview round.
And I know, like with everythingI say, take what's relevant and
useful and resonates with youand discard the rest.
I know there are, there aredifferent combinations and
permutations and ways this rollsout and yeah, but Emily, what
about this?
Or no, Emily, like that didn'thappen in my case type of
situation.
So I, I understand that if youhave a specific question or a
(26:27):
specific scenario, feel free toshoot me an email, Emily at next
level coach, you can find me onLinkedIn or just drop something
in the comments.
But, um, hopefully some of thishas been helpful or at least
food for thought for you and Iwill catch you next time on
leveraging leadership.
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