October 27, 2025 • 49 mins
Tracy Van Grack and Michael Patino talk about working with a Chief of Staff, sharing real stories from startup and established companies, including how early-stage teams can build a culture of communications even with limited resources. They cover the difference between hiring internal or external communications experts, using examples like tech startups handling crisis PR and the importance of authentic messaging. The episode also touches on practical steps for establishing company narratives, handling milestones like funding rounds, and common pitfalls in brand building.
Links Mentioned:
- Email Tracy Van Grack
- Connect with Tracy Van Grack on LinkedIn
- Follow Tracy Van Grack on X
- Connect with Michael Patino on LinkedIn
- Email Michael Patino
Free Resources:
- Strategic Planning Checklist
- Chief of Staff Skills Assessment Checklist
- A Day in the Life of a Chief of Staff
- Chief of Staff Toolkit
Get in Touch With Emily:
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Follow on YouTube
- Learn more about coaching
- Sign up for the newsletter
- Clarity Call with Emily
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
02:52 Working with a Chief of Staff
05:31 Communications Strategy for Startups
07:29 Building a Communications Culture
11:32 Internal vs. External Communications Resources
16:59 Traits of a Good Communications Officer
20:48 Onboarding Communications Resources
23:12 Crisis Communications and Lessons Learned
25:42 Challenges in Scaling Technology
27:55 Budget and Resource Allocation
30:18 Building Effective Communication Strategies
35:42 The Role of Chief Communications Officers
39:51 Brand Building and Storytelling
47:09 The Importance of Community in Brand Building
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_06-24-20 (00:25):
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership.
Our guests today are MichaelPatino and Tracy Van Rack, and
they are here to talk to usabout number one, working
alongside a chief of staff andalso about what a chief
communications officer is andwhy and when you might need one.
But Michael Tracy, welcome tothe show.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (00:44):
Thank you.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (00:45):
great to be here.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (00:46):
Beautiful.
So just for our listeners whomight not know you, can you just
do brief intros about what youguys work on and the exciting
projects that you get to do?
Maybe we can start with Tracyand then head over to Michael.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (00:59):
Yeah, happy to.
Thanks again for having me.
Thanks Mike, for including me inthis interesting conversation.
Um, I am coming up actuallynext.
Month on 10 years at Revolution,which is an investment firm
based in Washington DC.
Founded by a OL Co-founder SteveCase.
We are best known for ourinvestment philosophy of seeking
(01:22):
investments and advocating forentrepreneurs based outside of
Silicon Valley.
We currently have more than 200portfolio companies.
Based in more than 100 citiesacross the country, some of the
companies that we're best knownfor.
And I imagine a lot of yourlisteners will have heard of
everything from Kava SweetGreens, Scopely, clear
(01:46):
DraftKings, um, but.
Those are just some of thebigger, more late stage
companies that we work with.
We also have dozens of earlystage companies, and because
we're industry agnostic, we haveworked with so many companies
and founders based across thecountry, every stage of growth
and really every industry.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (02:06):
Beautiful.
So 200 Port cos So you are boredis what I'm hearing.
You have nothing to do.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24- (02:12):
right.
Lots of variety, which is a goodthing.
So I've been here 10.
emily-sander_1_06-24- (02:15):
Beautiful over to you.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_1 (02:18):
I only have two companies, so I
can't compare at all.
Um, I lead, uh, a managingdirector and CEO of Patino
Associates.
We are an executive search firmthat focuses on corporate
communications and publicaffairs assignments.
And this is my 25th year ofdoing executive search in this
space.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (02:36):
Wow.
Okay.
I feel like.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (02:37):
more than 10 years.
That's why I made the face whenshe said 10 years at Revolution.
I.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (02:42):
Time wise, man, like time really
does.
Um, but great.
So thank you both for making mefeel like a slacker compared to
what you all do.
Uh, appreciate that.
But Tracy, you know, 200 PortCos you work alongside a chief
of staff.
So just because we have a numberof chiefs of staff listening and
principals and fellow colleaguesof chiefs of staff, can you just
(03:03):
give us a little flavor of howthat is set up and what your
interactions are like with thechief of staff?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (03:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm, I'm gonna say somethingbefore I even get to that, which
is I've worked with a number ofchiefs of staff over the course
of my career, and I have to saythey are without a doubt the
smartest people I have everworked with.
I take.
I think it takes a real uniqueskillset, such a high level of
operational rigor and really,um, almost a sixth sense for
(03:32):
external and internalstorytelling.
And I was very excited when youbrought up this topic because I
have worked with the same chiefof staff here for the 10 years
that I have been here.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (03:43):
Oh wow.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (03:44):
I think our relationship is really
foundational.
I mean, she's a fantasticprofessional.
She's had a number of reallyinteresting experiences, both in
the public and private sector,and I think our relationship is
the reason that so much of ourcommunications is successful.
In particular, our executivecommunications platform, because
(04:06):
we have a high profile founder,both in the DC area and within
the broader tech community.
And I couldn't do my job well inparticularly, in particular in
that space if I didn't have abigger, broader understanding of
what was impacting him, how itwas connected to the rest of the
organization, our organizationalgoals.
(04:28):
Um, so, you know, we, we meetregularly, we communicate so
often.
Um, it's just such a successfulpartnership and I really
respect, um, everything that shehas brought to the table.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (04:41):
Beautiful.
And are you interacting with herdaily, weekly?
What types of interactions areyou having or what types of
conversations are you having?
Uh, with her?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (04:50):
I wanna say hourly, but
definitely, definitely daily.
I mean, we're a smaller teamhere at Revolution, right?
So it might vary depending onthe size and complexity of the
organization, but definitelydaily.
Um, and.
You know, that's kind of, youknow, I think the reason it's
worked so well is because wehave, of course, regular
communications where we havemeetings that we're at, you
(05:12):
know, throughout the week.
But I think because our level ofcomfort, um, is so, is so
successful, you know, we'retexting each other all day to
double check things.
Um, and she's just such a greatsource of information.
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (05:26):
Great, and so can you tell folks a
little bit as I understand it,and please, please jump in here.
You are working with all thesecompanies at various stages and
you're helping executives,founders, leaders understand
where.
Communications and ahead ofcommunications might come into
play, which is very differentdepending on the company stage
(05:47):
and industry, and I'm sure likecompany and founder specific,
whatever.
But can you dive into that andtell us a little bit about that?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (05:53):
Yeah, no, definitely.
And you're absolutely right.
I mean, communications is anart, it's not a science.
And even within the sameindustry, if I was talking to
two companies.
At the same stages of growth, Imight have completely different
recommendations.
So, um, it's hard to makeblanket statements, but given
the number of portfoliocompanies that you have, you
know, you have to imagine we tryand do a lot of things where we
(06:14):
create resources that arebroadly applicable and helpful
to as many founders as possible.
Um, and I guess the first thingI would say, um, is when we're
working with companies, it's.
You know, are, are we in thatproactive stage of
communications where we'retalking about playing offense,
where we're talking about brandbuilding, reputation building,
narrative building, or you know,very often companies come to us
(06:38):
when they're in crisis mode andyou know, it's unfortunate that
they come to us when they're inthat space because my message to
them always moving forward isthat actually.
There aren't reactive.
You don't wanna be reactive, youwanna be ready, right?
And if the first time you'rehaving a meeting about a crisis
is during that crisis, you'vefallen far behind.
(06:59):
And so my, my message to thecommunications people that I
work with is, you really can'tthink about those things in two
buckets.
They really have to go intandem.
And so how are you setting thestage even if you are, you know,
a seed stage or a series acompany so that you are prepared
for both phases ofcommunications.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (07:19):
And what are some of the things that
someone can do at an early stagecompany where it's like, Hey,
Tracy, we're like, we have nobudget.
We have a dream.
You're talking aboutcommunications.
What do I do?
Um.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (07:29):
Yeah, it, it's really hard, right?
And a lot of these companies,they're young, they're scrappy,
they're resource constrained.
But even if you can't build thetype of robust comms function
that we often think about ortalk about with later stage
companies, you can build a commsculture.
And there's a lot that thesecompanies are doing that
actually are communi that wouldqualify as communications.
(07:50):
They just don't recognize thatthey're doing that.
So the first thing I say is youhave to really.
Create that, that capabilityinternally.
So even if you don't have a headof comms, decentralized
communications does not work.
There needs to be a point personthat is a point person.
Maybe you're lucky enough tohave a few people that can be
(08:11):
your comms team, but it needs tobe centralized so that someone
is owning that.
And eventually, if you are luckyenough to hire outside
resources, that is your internalpoint person.
then what I think is reallyvaluable and comms firms can
help, um.
Companies do this.
But I also think a lot of them,truthfully can do this on their
own.
They're just not taking the timeto get some of the thinking on
(08:33):
paper is what is your messaginghierarchy?
So that can be, there are tonsof ways to do this right?
But the way I tend to thinkabout it is first and foremost,
what is your value proposition?
What are you delivering and forwhom are you delivering it for?
And the second is, what isunique about you?
So what?
What are you doing that otherscannot build?
(08:56):
is your team?
Right?
And this is where you get intowhat I think a lot of companies
already have that are supercompelling.
What's their origin story?
How did you find that painpoint?
then it's what's, what's themission of your company?
And this is the one to twosentences that actually should
really never change.
And unless your company engagesin a, in a really.
Massive pivot.
(09:18):
Um, and then finally, and thisis the most challenging piece of
it, and we could have an entirecall about, um, on its own, is
distribution.
How are you getting that storyout there?
And there's a huge debate in thecommunications community I.
With over something that they'vedubbed going direct, right?
So now you're starting to see aton of executives, founders in
(09:38):
particular that are using socialmedia, emails, listservs,
whatever you know, is works forthem, um, to take charge of
building that narrative, notrelying on the mainstream media
or news sources.
communicate the value of thatbrand.
And we've seen a ton of successwith that in our portfolio
(10:01):
founders that LinkedIn inparticular has been really
effective.
Um, and I would say, you know,they're building their
narrative, but they're alsobuilding their presence.
I
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (10:10):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (10:10):
Um, Mike, if you saw Axios just came
out with a study they did withMorning Consult, where I think
it was eight out of 10 adults,you know, are associating
positively or negatively acompany or a brand based on that
CEO's profile and brand.
And a lot of that has to do withfounders and CEOs going direct.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (10:32):
Yeah, so I wanna get to where the
handoff comes in with Mike andsome medium and larger stage
companies.
But just for, for the chiefs ofstaff listening, oftentimes
they're.
Employee number one or employeenumber five at this startup.
And they are doing everythingfrom head of operations and
sales and marketing and productand compliance and head of
(10:54):
janitorial services and throw oncommunications.
So I think what you said aboutbuilding a culture of
communications.
Is really good and setting thatfoundation.
And then you had also mentionedwhen you can bring on a
full-time resource or even likean official part-time resource.
So maybe just touch on if, ifyou're talking to a chief of
staff who's like, I, I haveeverything I have to do,
(11:16):
everything.
Um, how they build that solidculture of communication.
And then when that inflectionpoint comes when we can hire
someone part-time or we can hiresomeone full-time, what that
looks like.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (11:30):
Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting.
I think the first time Igenerally have this conversation
with a founder, um, or a chiefof staff, whoever is kind of
leading the charge with how tomaximize or take communications
to the next level tends to bearound a milestone.
So.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (11:46):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (11:47):
They have a funding announcement,
they have a product launch, theyhave a big hire and typically
you will hire an outsideresource before you have an
internal hire.
And I'm gonna leave it to Miketo talk about the pros and cons
of that.
But that's generally the way inthe in startup world, you people
will engage, um, with acommunications function and
(12:08):
there are all different routesyou can go when you hire
external support.
I think.
People don't realize, they veryoften think hiring outside, um,
consultancies involves, youknow, a five figure 12 month
retainer, and that's not thecase.
The communications
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (12:24):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025 (12:25):
so varied in particular, I.
And, you know, for techstartups, there are firms that
specialize in helping companiesof all different stages of
growth.
I even work with, um,consultants that have kind of
packaged various milestones.
So they will say like, okay, youhave a funding announcement.
Here are the five things youneed.
Here's the fee, here's thelength of time in which we are
(12:45):
going to work with you.
So that, that's the first point.
The second, and I, I, I know Imentioned this earlier, is
making sure you have theinternal resources to manage the
external resources.
So a lot of times companiesthink, okay, I'm gonna hire a
consultant.
You handle it, but thatconsultant is not in your
company every day.
And we'll get to that when wetalk about the benefits of
(13:06):
internal hires, right?
They, they do not know what'sgoing on.
They don't have a sense of theinternal politics.
They don't know what wasdiscussed or canceled, you know,
at a meeting three hours ago.
So unless you have thecapability to manage them
effectively, think you'rewasting a lot of time and money
'cause they're not gonna producethe results that you need them
to.
(13:27):
Um, and there are variousreasons where you might escalate
this or feel ready to, you know,bring it up, bring on, um,
external resources.
Again, whether it's one of theseannouncements or whether you
have a high profile founder,whether you're in a highly
competitive industry, sometimesthere are reasons where
companies will kind of, I, Ithink, accelerate getting some
(13:48):
resources where you might thinklike, oh, they're a pretty small
company.
Like, do they really needexternal support for
communications?
And, and they do.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (13:57):
Mike, what are some of the pros and
cons of internal versus externalhires?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (14:01):
Um, before I jump into that, I think
there's one thing that, uh.
That Tracy brought up I think isreally important, which is the
culture.
You know, the, the idea thatcommunications is this thing
that you bolt on.
some point in time, it is kindof a mistake that some founders
make.
Uh, I kind of liken your, yourthought process around
(14:22):
communication should be yoursame way as you think about
finance, right?
Yes.
There are certain aspects offinance that you need at
different stages along the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (14:30):
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (14:31):
You might not need a tax department
from the beginning.
You're gonna need that at somepoint in time, but you're
thinking about the financialaspects of your business from
the beginning, and you should bethinking about the
communications aspects of yourbusiness.
from the beginning as well,right?
You might not need to go out andlaunch, uh, you know, products
or worry about brand buildingfrom day one, but you should be
(14:54):
thinking about that as part ofyour process from the very
beginning of that, um, uh, of,of the inception of the company,
right?
So that as you start to thinkabout to, to Tracy's point,
inflection points where you say,gosh.
We now need help in executing,uh, a product launch.
We need help in strategizingabout how to build the brand.
(15:17):
That's when you begin to startto understand what kinds of
resources you might need, whatkinds you might wanna bring in
and why.
Right.
Just in the same way that youthink about, gosh, I can
probably get away with abookkeeper.
From a finance function, oh,we're gonna do a capital raise.
Now I need at least a, afractional CFO, if not a
full-time CFO to help me go anddo that process.
(15:39):
Right?
so when we start talking about,okay, what kinds of resources do
we utilize and why?
I agree with what Tracy saidearlier.
Um, it depends upon.
Where they are in their, intheir mindset and what their
expectations are and a littlebit what their budget is as
well.
Um, Tracy made a great point.
There are a wide range ofresources available.
(16:02):
There are some phenomenal peoplewho work independently, who work
on kind of a project basisaround certain things.
Um, there are firms that work onproject basis versus retainer.
You can go bring it in house.
I mean it, the biggest things,and Tracy made this point, um.
Having a consultant needs to bemanaged, and quite honestly, in
(16:23):
a lot of the earlier stagecompanies that we've worked with
in the past, it falls on thechief of staff because it really
should be something that the CEOis at least aware of and
thinking about, and the chief ofstaff.
In the ones that work reallywell, that we've worked really
well with, um, understand themessaging, understand the brand,
(16:43):
understand where the company istrying to be positioned relative
to the market, and can at leastcommunicate that to the external
resources so that the resourcescan deliver on that.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (16:56):
Yeah.
What makes a good.
Communications officer orfractional resource or part-time
person, what makes it, whattraits do you look for?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_ (17:07):
So I think there's probably three
important things.
One is you need to have someonewho, who understands your
leadership and what
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (17:17):
Hmm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (17:17):
are trying to accomplish in the
business, right?
That, that if you.
Come to a, uh, if you come to aconsultant, you say, we do X,
and they go, great, I've got it.
I'll take it from here.
That's a recipe for disasterbecause they're gonna go in a
direction that they're notaligned with where the
leadership is.
(17:38):
So they need to be goodlisteners, whether it's in-house
or external.
They need to be taking the timeto listen and learn and
understand where the business isreally trying to go and where
you are in that journey.
Right?
sometimes you're talking about,you know, uh, doing a fundraise.
You realize, gosh, they reallyhaven't done the brand work yet.
(17:59):
They haven't done the originstory yet, Gosh, I need to come
in and actually pull that out ofthe CEO and the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (18:05):
Yes.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (18:06):
okay, this is, this is the four
minutes that you're gonna usefrom now on, because that's what
you're using in the fundraisingpitch, right?
so there's, there's reallyimportant things that come out
of it.
And then third someone who is.
Detail oriented enough to followthrough and actually deliver.
Um, I hate to say there are anumber of people that we've run
(18:29):
into internally and externallywho are great idea people.
They are great at, atstrategizing and thinking about
the possibilities of where youcan go from a brand perspective
or even from a distributionperspective.
But they've gotta actuallydeliver on it at the end of the
day as well.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (18:48):
Yeah, you mentioned kind of the
messaging and brand and we, I'veworked with a number of
communications folks over theyears, and the best ones do what
you said, which is pull thestory out
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (18:57):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-20 (18:58):
people.
Because a lot of times,especially with founders,
they're, they're in it so deepand.
Every day.
And sometimes they can't seetheir own story or know how to
tell it without like, and thenthis happened, and then next
quarter and then this month, andthen I felt this way.
And then I was like, you'vegotta make this open-ended
story, especially if you'relooking for fundraising where
you include your personal storyand you include the narrative
(19:20):
arc of your company, but youleave it open-ended for the
funder to come in.
And, and say you could be partof this story.
So I have had wholeconversations around that, but I
love that you said they helpthem craft the story and pull it
out of them.
It's not that, um, they'retelling a story that could
already be told.
That process is bringing thatstory out.
(19:41):
So I just wanted to highlightthat, that piece.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (19:43):
and look the, it, it's incumbent
upon the CEO, the founding team,the, the, the chief of staff as
well, to help them understandthat they've gotta also put a
stake in the ground with theirnarrative, right?
We've run into a number ofcompanies, especially when
they're earlier stage, wherethey've approached the world
(20:06):
with a maximum.
Flexibility or optionality.
And that's enabled them to kindof like zigzag through a variety
of different challenges.
But what it's, what it's causedthem to do is actually not be
comfortable being.
Pinned into a corner, right?
Like you've gotta anchoryourself.
You've gotta anchor your storyin some way, shape or form, um,
(20:27):
in order to get through the nextstages, you know, whether it's
funding or product launch orwhatever.
Like who are these guys?
And, and some leadership teamsreally struggle with that
process.
They have to get comfortablethat they are going to be
defined at the end of the day.
Um, and it's hard, it's scarysometimes.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (20:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'll open it up to both ofyou.
What are some stories oranecdotes of when onboarding a
chief communications officer orcommunications resource goes
well and maybe what not to do?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (21:01):
Tracy, you've got, you've got way more
experience on this.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (21:05):
Yeah.
You know, I mean, it'sinteresting.
The other thing I was gonna add,just to build on what you just
said, Mike, is one thing that Ithink chiefs of staff do really
well is make sure that anycommunication, especially in the
early days if you are new to acomms function, is make sure
that that communications.
Stor that that story isauthentic, right?
So chiefs of staff have such agood read on the voice of, of a
(21:30):
principal, and so making surethat everything that's coming
out, I mean today, you know, youcan spot inauthenticity, right
off the bat.
And so any sort of brand seekingto communicate really is looking
to capture the voice.
And, you know, if you read aspeech and you're like, eh.
He wouldn't talk like that.
She wouldn't talk like that.
They wouldn't communicate thatway.
(21:52):
Um, so getting a read on that Ijust think is so helpful.
But to your question, in termsof onboarding agencies, I mean,
again, first and foremost,making sure that that agency or
that communications function orresource has a line in to the
organization so that they'regetting regular.
And real time updates.
(22:12):
I think at the beginning of anysort of relationship, whether
it's an external or internalcommunications hire, you need to
have a really strong.
Ability to articulate yourgoals.
Why are, why are you bringing onadditional communications
support?
What, what are the businessobjectives and how are you gonna
architect a communicationsplatform that really supports
(22:34):
that program?
So being clear and consistent tome are, are sort of the top two.
Um.
The top two things to take away.
And in terms of things that gowrong, I mean, gosh, you know,
like all of my, all of myexamples, um.
Are, are really pandemicrelated.
I, I had a, a friend in theindustry who called the Pandemic
(22:57):
Crisis Palooza, and it really,it really was, although I do
think it elevated thecommunications function.
And Mike, I'd be interested in,in your thoughts as to how
that's played out post pandemic.
Um, but you know, God, it'severything in terms of.
Uh, like my, my favoriteexample, or favorite is I, I
don't know if you rememberbetter.com, did layoffs, uh,
(23:20):
mass layoffs over Zoom rightbefore the holidays.
Um, you know, anything, I alwayshear from founders after a
crisis, like, oh, we didn'tthink they would notice.
We didn't think anyone wouldnotice.
Well, everyone noticeseverything these days and, you
know, to Warren Buffet.
Famous quote, it takes 20 yearsto build a reputation in five
(23:42):
minutes to destroy it.
I think it probably takes abouttwo seconds to destroy it in
this climate.
Um.
You really start to see thatany, anything and everything is
public.
And so communications teams thatdon't understand that a text
thread can be screenshot.
You know, we've seen that and,and put out on, on social media.
(24:02):
Really everything is public andso you have to have a strong
understanding of what that meansand how you might react.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (24:11):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (24:12):
Mike, any fun stories from your end?
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (24:16):
The, the ones that go wrong always
seem to be the, the sexier,funnier ones.
Um, we had a client severalyears ago that came to us, and,
and I admit when they first cameto us, I thought they were
almost too early stage.
For, to get involved with us.
And then we sat down with theleadership team and I began to
understand how brilliant theywere for asking for help, um, to
(24:39):
find, uh, a head ofcommunications.
We were working with, uh, a, acompany that now unfortunately
no longer exists, um, calledOhana Biosciences, that was, uh,
uh, funded by flagshipPioneering, which had created
Moderna and several otherphenomenal, uh, biotech
companies Uh, Ohana was focusedin family planning, and
(25:01):
specifically they were lookingat, uh, the, the male side of
infertility.
And, uh, we're starting to talkabout a, a technology or
process.
They had to increase spermmotility, um, which is a really
interesting thing to talk aboutfor three months in the market.
Lemme um, and so they started todescribe all this and, and they
had literally, I think it was 11or 12 people in the.
(25:25):
They were in this temporaryspace in Cambridge.
It was, it was as garage band asyou could imagine.
And we started talking throughit with the CEO and the COO and
what they landed on, the reasonwhy they said they needed help
was they knew that their, um.
That their, uh, ability to takethe technology and actually gain
(25:48):
scale was based on a being ableto reach clinicians so they
understood what that, thatcommunications journey looked
like to get clinicians to beginto pay attention.
They knew where they needed tocompete with kind of established
treatments like IVF, um, andalso, uh, uh, dovetail with IDF,
but they also understood.
(26:10):
How they needed to developcommunication strategies to
address both sides of the, ofthe couple.
Right?
So how do they go and engage theman in the relationship and how
do they go and engage the womanin the relationship?
And, and they didn't have it allfigured out, right?
But they understood those threethings and I went.
Oh my gosh, you're brilliantbecause you understand that your
(26:31):
ability to succeed in this is,you know, I'll say 40 to 50% the
technology and the science, butit's 50% the communications
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (26:41):
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_ (26:41):
to be able to get customers to want
to be able to use this.
And they're like, yep,absolutely.
And I was like, we are all in.
And it was, it was a phenomenalexperience and we placed someone
and, and they had a, awonderful.
experience for a couple ofyears.
Unfortunately, the technologyitself didn't take hold.
Um, but the work that they weredoing was phenomenal.
But it started with theleadership team really
(27:03):
understanding'cause I was readyto tell them, you shouldn't go
hire a, a head of comms.
You should go and use anexternal resource.
And only because they had reallymapped out.
The journey where I went, okay,you understand the scope of work
that you're gonna need thisperson to accomplish, and you
understand why you want them tocome in.
Because as the technologyjourney, uh, evolves, it might
(27:29):
change.
The messaging or the, or thenarrative as well.
Um, and so I was like, yep,okay.
Got it.
but there are plenty ofcompanies where we said, don't,
you know, don't go hire someoneyet.
Go and hire, uh, an externalresource first.
Um, gosh, I mean, there are,there are a number of, uh,
(27:50):
people who've done it wrong.
I, I try not to pick on peopletoo much.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (27:54):
Well
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (27:54):
What.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (27:55):
it's interesting'cause there's also
one piece, um, that I, I thinkis probably of paramount
importance, but maybe a littlebit less sexy to talk about,
which is budget
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (28:04):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (28:04):
what we do find that's really tricky.
Is people will start, companieswill start working with an
agency that has variedresources.
So they'll have social mediastrategists, designers, media
relations specialists, and thenwhen they start thinking about
an internal hire, I have thisconversation with them because
you really have to think about,are you gonna hire one person
(28:26):
that you.
Spec to replace all of thosecapabilities?
Or is this person going tomanage that external resource,
or can you hire two people?
So really looking at the nittygritty, what you're spending
your budget on with your agency.
Are you using the design teamwell?
Okay.
If that's the majority of, ofwhat you're spending time on,
maybe it makes sense to hire orpart-time.
(28:47):
You know, graphic designer andreally trying to figure out,
because these, these are bigexpenses and I think people
expect immediate results, andthese things take time.
Communications is multifaceted.
So really trying to balance whatyour needs are.
Um, and the, I think the chiefof staff can be really
instrumental in that, in thatconversation because they tend
(29:10):
to have.
A big picture view of what'sgoing on at the organization and
what perhaps the needs might be,you know, three months, six
months, nine months down theroad.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (29:19):
And
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090 (29:20):
I think,
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_1 (29:20):
a lot of time helping leadership
teams
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (29:23):
yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (29:24):
down in communications into uh, uh,
finite sub-functions so thatthey are thinking about.
The right we're, we're makingthe comparison constantly to, to
finance or to hr, to otherthings that are being scaled,
right?
Where you went, gosh, I, I had abookkeeper, I used, you know, a
service.
Now I'm bringing it in-house.
(29:44):
I need this, I need that.
Right?
And understanding what it, whatthe trade-offs are to Tracy's
point in terms of, okay, if youtake your whole agency budget
and you hire one person, you'reprobably gonna end up being
disappointed at the end of theday.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (29:58):
It's an onboarding fail.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (29:59):
The, you know, the person's not gonna
be able to, to match what 8, 10,12, 20 people might be doing in
an agency.
with a depth, right.
Functionally each
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (30:07):
Sure.
Sure.
michael-patino_1_06-24- (30:08):
brings.
Um, but really beginning tounderstand what that, what that
journey looks like in terms ofbuilding a function.
And, and each one is different,right?
So we talk about employeecommunications as being a, a big
thing.
Usually companies will come tous and go.
Gosh, we need to build anemployee communications
function, and it's becausethey've gotten to the place, at
(30:29):
least I'll say in the oldentimes before the pandemic where
you couldn't put everybody inone room anymore, right?
You, you couldn't put everybodyin the lobby of the building
and, and talk to and have theCEO talk to'em all at once.
So now we need to think aboutbuilding infrastructure.
to be able to communicate morereadily with a, with a rapidly
growing employee base.
Um, those are natural, right?
(30:49):
But then there's trade offs.
What is the investment thatthey're gonna make financially
and otherwise, right?
'cause the other part of this isas this company grows, as this
communications function grows,as it evolves, there's more
required of the leadership team.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (31:05):
Mm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (31:06):
Their time and effort is part of this
function as well, and a lot of,uh, uh, founders miss out on
that and, and, and don'tunderstand that and get
frustrated by that.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090 (31:19):
I wanna touch on something you
said, which is comparing it to afinance function because most
people at understand at a basiclevel.
You've got like accounting andthen CFO and like forecasting
contingency plans.
I feel like a lot of peoplethink of communications as like
this monolithic thing that justkind of sits there, like, uh, so
maybe you can mention just somemore.
You mentioned we have, you know,the external pieces and crisis
(31:42):
communication and messaging andbranding.
You touched on the internalpieces like employee engagement.
Are there any other big ones orcommon ones you see get
overlooked or missed by people?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (31:53):
Uh, so I'll offer a couple, I'm sure
Tracy has some as well.
I mean, media relations is thething that most people are
looking for first and foremost,right?
So it could be as simplistic andegotistical as, you know, my CEO
wants to be on the cover ofWired.
And so that's the goal.
At the end of the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (32:08):
Hey, that has his place.
Yep.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (32:10):
have that request.
Try to explain to them how thatworks.
Um, you know, the employeecommunications or internal
communications is a, is as aseparate part.
Those are kind of the twobiggest.
So we kind of talk aboutexternal versus internal.
Um, usually what we end uptalking about with leaders is
think about the differentaudiences that you're trying to
reach, right?
(32:31):
So, know, employees.
Customers, investors orpotential investors.
Um, in some cases you're dealingwith regulated industries, so
you might have to worry aboutregulators or elected officials,
especially if you're trying tobuild a building or a plant or
something like
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (32:46):
Right.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (32:47):
Um, up and down the value chain.
If you're working with resellersor you're working with partners,
how are you communicating withthem?
That's something that thisperson can actually help you
with.
And, and I've watched a numberof CEOs go.
God.
Yeah.
Gosh.
Like they understand need to usethem to help talk to our
resellers more.
Yes, absolutely.
Please use them and listen tothem in that regard.
(33:08):
But I mean, we, we talk aboutthe audience model more because
it helps people then think abouthow to utilize resources against
that and how to think about thecommunications that they're
using and say, oh, this thingthat we're saying over here to
employees.
Our investors are absolutelygonna find out because
somebody's gonna post it onReddit.
(33:29):
and so we need to be aware ofwhat the implications of that
is.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (33:33):
Well, I think the audience model is
really smart because most peopleget that it's intuitive.
And also your sperm mobilityexample, they had identified
their key audiences, theirexternal audiences, and that got
them the 40 or 50% where thensomeone could come and go, oh,
okay, like these are your threestakeholders, constituencies,
and the.
The narrative and story changesa little bit.
(33:55):
Not that you're lying ormanipulating it, but it just
changes it depending on theaudience.
So I think the audience modelthat, that makes a lot of sense.
So, sorry Tracy, you're gonnasay something?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (34:03):
No, no.
The only thing I'd add to that,um, and it kind of fits within
your model, um, but kind ofcrosses all audiences is that
you're really starting to see alot of companies invest in
individuals solely dedicated todigital or social media and or
content creation.
Um, and that is, I think, youknow, because of this going
direct, this idea that we aregoing to kind of.
(34:25):
Take hold of this brand buildingprocess, and we're not just
gonna rely on press or thirdparty stakeholders.
Um, and you know, again, as Imentioned, this is a big topic
in the communications industryand I, I, you know, just is
going direct paramount it, youknow, how much reliance should
we place on press and thirdparty stakeholders?
I'm of the mindset that it needsto kind of be balanced because
(34:46):
there's still a lot ofcredibility when a member of the
press or a third partystakeholder says something
positive about you.
But I get that.
That's another conversation.
Um, but I will say in hiring forcontent and, and digital media,
I mean, it's really interesting.
I was struck when you weretalking about being able to pull
the story out of founders orexecutives and.
You're starting to see actuallya lot of former reporters and
(35:08):
journalists find their way intocommunications roles.
It's actually very, um, prettyprevalent in the venture space
and investment space.
And I think that's largelybecause they do such a great job
with story building, withextracting that story.
Um, and then you're, in additionto kind of these, you know,
social media strategists, you'realso starting to see
(35:29):
organizations hiring editors.
Right, so they actually arehiring someone who is solely
dedicated to creating andcurating content, which I think
is a really interestingdevelopment.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (35:42):
And then if we look at a more
established company who has afull-time chief communications
officer, who is a member of theC-Suite team, is running
internal and external, youmentioned as that.
Role grows more time investmentis needed from the CEO, from the
founder, from other members ofthe team.
But if A CEO is looking at theirexecutive team and saying, how
(36:05):
are we doing?
How is each individual doing?
How do you know a chiefcommunications officer is doing
good for a lack of a betterphrase?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (36:14):
Yeah.
Well, so Mike, I can, I can handit to you to talk maybe a little
bit more about how, how peoplehire and the various things
they're looking for that theymight be holding this up
against.
You know, there are so manythings out there today that
people use to measure thesuccess of their communications
programs.
You know, various, we could gothrough everything from the
(36:36):
various like engagement metricson social media surveys, you
know.
programs that measure how, howoften and how well internal
communications are resonating.
I tend to think about it justbroadly speaking for this
purpose, is that a really goodCCO is gonna bring you crisis
before they arise andopportunities before they're
(36:59):
obvious.
So this is not someone who's afirefighter or a cheerleader,
they're a strategist and Ithink.
Previously, and Mike, I'd beinterested in your thoughts on
this too.
It was almost thought of toomuch as a service function.
And as I mentioned earlier, I, Ireally think the pandemic
changed that.
It's not that organizations hadnot evolved until that moment,
(37:21):
but I just feel like it reallysolidified the role of the
communications officer in theC-suite and having the same, you
know, it can be challenging whenyou don't have a p and l in an
organization.
And to me that reallyhighlighted, okay, even if you
don't have that, you are a keypart of this team and your
strategic advice is critical inhelping us reach our business
(37:44):
goals.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (37:46):
Yeah.
I, I would say, just to, to thatlast point, Tracy, the, the
impact of the pandemic more thananything else was that it made
CEOs.
Actually understand what each ofthe functions in their company
does because they had to, theyhad to look at every aspect of
their company and say, how arewe going to potentially
(38:07):
transform or utilize differentaspects and, and emphasize
different aspects or differentfunctions within our company in
order to help us operate goingforward.
Right.
So maybe the facilities teamtook a bit of a backseat because
you weren't using facilitiesanymore, but they were, you
know, adding value in a, in avariety of different ways.
(38:27):
Um, you know, going forward,communications obviously took a,
a front seat on a lot of the,the aspects of, uh, of, you
know, coming out of thepandemic.
Um, you know, to go back to thequestion in terms of, you know,
what makes someone succeed.
I, we actually work with CEOs tokind of.
(38:48):
Develop that, that understandingfor themselves, you know, what
are the three or four thingsthat you want to see them
achieve?
Um, what is, what is happeningin the business as a result of
it?
And it can be to Tracy's point,um, you know, eradicating
barriers, right?
So again, to use a regulatedindustry model, how do we, how
(39:09):
do we engage a regulator sothat.
They weren't challenging us.
I think the, the, the cryptospace has been very successful
at that over the last couple ofyears.
In particular, you go and lookat what they've done from a
communications or a corporateaffairs perspective.
When you start to engagegovernment affairs and policy
and advocacy is part of that andkind of create a bigger umbrella
(39:29):
that's integrated, they've donea successful job of reducing or
removing barriers.
Um, not so much.
Uh, uh, advocating or tellingthis amazing story about crypto,
I think that's what they weredoing three or four years ago.
The last year or two hasactually been more about
reducing and taking away, andthat's the ones you've be seen
be very successful in thatspace.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (39:51):
And I am wondering too, how much of
it is there's the external.
Brand and messaging.
There's like the reputation andcredibility piece of that, but
also like what do we stand forwhen you hear this brand name or
this founder name, like boom,boom.
Here are the two things that youknow about or you think you know
about this company or person.
Same thing internally, do, doesthe rank and file person know
like, oh, this is what beingpart of this company and being
(40:14):
part of this team means, and howI contribute to that story.
It was funny, I was listening toan interview.
Um.
It was with Ron Howard whodirected Apollo 13,
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (40:24):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (40:24):
and he was talking about hiring Tom
Hanks as, uh, I think it wasJohn Lovett or who, who was one
of the astronauts that went upthere.
You know, Houston, we have aproblem and people wanted other
actors besides Tom Hanks and thestudies before that film come
out.
It was like no one would believethat Tom Hanks would be an
astronaut, and Ron Howard said,but everyone would want Tom
(40:45):
Hanks back safe on earth becausethat was his brand.
Like everyone loves Tom Hanks.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24- (40:50):
Right, right.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (40:51):
and it's just like, it reminded me
of Yeah, it was kinda like you.
Yeah.
So it kind of reminded me, youknow, you kind of have this, um,
like core thought or baseline ofa company or someone in your
head, and then when crisis doescome or when something comes to
challenge that you already havean established story.
So I'm wondering, like, that'sjust something to throw out
(41:12):
there.
Is that part of a, acommunications project plan?
tracy-van-grack_1_0 (41:16):
Definitely.
And also, you know how that tiesto recruiting, right?
You know, particularly in thetech space, like it's a tight
talent market.
And your ability to tell thatstory and to get your employees
to believe in that story andbelieve that they're furthering,
uh, a mission that they believein, or producing a product or a
service that they believe in,you know, pays dividends for
(41:38):
your.
your HR team and trying torecruit people who wanna be a
part of your team,
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (41:44):
And nowhere is that more important
than in earlier stage companiesbefore you've gotten venture
capital money to begin with,right?
convincing people to come work.
Typically under market value,um, based on either challenge,
opportunity, you know, impact,um, and you're, you're selling a
vision.
And for the companies thatactually can, can do that
(42:08):
quickly, and it's, it's usuallyverbally, it's, you know, and it
almost feels like you're makingit up on the fly, but if you say
it four or five times, that'sthe truth.
That is your, that is yournarrative at the end of the day.
Um, and because you're gonnahave four or five people sitting
in a room together in front ofcomputers working on something,
you go, why are you all here?
And they're all gonna say thesame version or enough of the
same version.
You go, okay, that's the truth.
(42:28):
That's, that's who you are,that's who you want to be.
Um, so it's, it's an interestingchallenge.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (42:34):
Is there I am.
I imagine there can be a big gapbetween what I think of myself
and then what other people, whatother people's story are of me,
whereas like, we need to closethis gap.
And is that sometimes thatdifficult conversation is that
sometimes people are open to it?
How does, how does that rollout?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (42:54):
I think it depends.
Okay.
I think it depends on the personthat, if, if you're talking
about, you know, communicatingto a founder or a leader, I
think it just depends on their,their previous experiences.
I think if you have a, wherewe've run into issues is when
you have a pretty.
Um, successful serialentrepreneur, this is their
third or fourth company.
(43:16):
They've, it goes both ways.
They've either been reallysuccessful such that, you know,
reality checks don't resonate orthey've had previous bad
experiences with press
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (43:27):
Hmm
tracy-van-grack_ (43:27):
communications such that it held, holds them
back from telling their story.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (43:33):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06- (43:35):
successful is an interesting to use, right?
Because we've worked with, we'veworked with CEOs who have had
multiple exits.
That, that is a measure ofsuccess.
I have nothing to, to, to arguewith that.
But all of a sudden there issomething that, that isn't going
to be sold, that is now all of asudden reaching different
benchmarks that they've neverreached before as a CEO that
(43:56):
they've never experiencedbefore.
And their ability to turn aroundand look to the rest of their
leadership team and say, I need,I need guidance from you in
certain aspects of this.
Because we're, I'm personallynow hitting uncharted space.
Right.
And the chief of staff plays acritical role in both kind of
nudging the CEO as appropriatebecause they are really trusted
(44:18):
by the CEO to, to kind of bethat, that, that, you know, yang
to the yin, um, and to say,look, hey, you know, I think
we're, I think we're getting toun uh, uncharted waters around.
Personal brand, like you werenever tested, you were never
scrutinized in this way when yousold the last three companies.
'cause you got to a couplehundred million, you sold it
(44:41):
and, and pretty much nobodyoutside of the valley knew who
you were.
And that was great.
now on a bigger stage.
Right.
And part of that is based onwhere we are from a digital and
social media perspective today.
But part of that might be wherethe business is as well,
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (44:54):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (44:55):
I would say too, you know, tech
founders in particular tend tobe an optimistic bunch.
sometimes that optimism, whichI, I would attribute probably to
some of the most successfulinnovations of the last, you
know, decade or two decades canbe blinding.
So it does fall often on thecommunications officer, on the
(45:16):
chief of staff because they are,at the end of the day, like head
of principal management to, tooffer those reality checks
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (45:23):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06- (45:24):
sometimes things aren't always going, you
know, perfectly.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (45:27):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (45:28):
As we wind down here, what's one
more thing that you have wannadispel?
A misconception or a piece ofadvice or word of wisdom out to
communica chief communicationsofficers to executives.
Anyone else just hearing andlearning about this space?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (45:45):
The only piece of advice I would
offer in this community is it'snot someone else's problem.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (45:52):
Hmm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (45:52):
Hiring does not make it someone else's
problem, right?
Just in the same way that youhired A CFO, you are still
responsible for the profit andloss, and that means you need to
understand how to read yourprofit and loss statement in
order to be able to do that,right?
If you're going to be.
The CEO you need to understand,you need to play an active role
in your narrative, in yourorigin story.
(46:14):
You need to understand that youare the face of the business
and, and that has both greatopportunities, but also great
risks and challenges associatedwith it.
And so getting support, whetherit's internal, whether it's
external, whether it'spart-time, you know, however you
want to go do that, but gettingsupport to understand.
How to behave in that way as theface of the company and the
(46:37):
impacts of doing it.
I mean, Yohan Musk is eitherbrilliant because he is gone
direct, or he's an imbecilebecause he is blown through more
chief communications officers inrecord time than anybody else
I've ever known and clearlydoesn't listen to what they have
to say.
Um.
But I would argue that he'sprobably made different points
(47:00):
in his life a lot harder thanthey needed to be because he
wasn't willing to listen to thecouncil.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (47:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's fair.
Um, I, I guess I would just addto that where we've seen
founders and this, this issomething that's, that's
actionable where we've seenfounders really be successful
with brand building is they makeit a community activity.
And this is also where, youknow, the chief of staff and
the.
The communications officer canbe really helpful.
So have so many tools at ourdisposal, right?
(47:30):
And the founder is super activein brand building, but you have
investors, you have partners,you have customers, you have the
people in your family andfriends, and your work community
that are cheering you on.
You have employees.
And so when you look at buildingthat.
Brand, you want everyone to kindof, you know, be singing from
the same prayer book.
And so equipping yourstakeholders to be supportive of
(47:52):
the message you're trying to
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (47:53):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (47:54):
and get out there.
I mean, you know, somethinglike, like a fundraise for
example, which I know we'vespoken about a couple of times.
Equipping those stakeholders toamplify your message has made
those moments so much moresuccessful for so many of our
founders.
And it's actually, you know, arelatively simple thing to do.
You know, make it easy forpeople to cheer you on.
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (48:14):
That's a great one.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Who do you help and how, and ifsomeone is listening, like I
wanna get in touch with Tracy orMike, what is the best way to do
that for both of you?
I.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (48:25):
Tracy, go ahead.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (48:26):
No, I, you should feel free to reach
out to us.
We're at media@revolution.com.
I absolutely do see thoseemails, read them and respond to
them.
Um, I'm also, you know, onLinkedIn and X, so feel free to
reach out.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (48:40):
same.
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can reach meatMichael@patinoassociates.com.
Um, and I read every last singleone of them, so.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (48:50):
Beautiful.
We'll have all that informationin the show notes, but Mike
Tracy, thank you so much again.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (48:55):
Thank you.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (48:55):
you, Emily.
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership.
Our guests today are MichaelPatino and Tracy Van Rack, and
they are here to talk to usabout number one, working
alongside a chief of staff andalso about what a chief
communications officer is andwhy and when you might need one.
But Michael Tracy, welcome tothe show.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (00:44):
Thank you.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (00:45):
great to be here.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (00:46):
Beautiful.
So just for our listeners whomight not know you, can you just
do brief intros about what youguys work on and the exciting
projects that you get to do?
Maybe we can start with Tracyand then head over to Michael.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (00:59):
Yeah, happy to.
Thanks again for having me.
Thanks Mike, for including me inthis interesting conversation.
Um, I am coming up actuallynext.
Month on 10 years at Revolution,which is an investment firm
based in Washington DC.
Founded by a OL Co-founder SteveCase.
We are best known for ourinvestment philosophy of seeking
(01:22):
investments and advocating forentrepreneurs based outside of
Silicon Valley.
We currently have more than 200portfolio companies.
Based in more than 100 citiesacross the country, some of the
companies that we're best knownfor.
And I imagine a lot of yourlisteners will have heard of
everything from Kava SweetGreens, Scopely, clear
(01:46):
DraftKings, um, but.
Those are just some of thebigger, more late stage
companies that we work with.
We also have dozens of earlystage companies, and because
we're industry agnostic, we haveworked with so many companies
and founders based across thecountry, every stage of growth
and really every industry.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (02:06):
Beautiful.
So 200 Port cos So you are boredis what I'm hearing.
You have nothing to do.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24- (02:12):
right.
Lots of variety, which is a goodthing.
So I've been here 10.
emily-sander_1_06-24- (02:15):
Beautiful over to you.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_1 (02:18):
I only have two companies, so I
can't compare at all.
Um, I lead, uh, a managingdirector and CEO of Patino
Associates.
We are an executive search firmthat focuses on corporate
communications and publicaffairs assignments.
And this is my 25th year ofdoing executive search in this
space.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (02:36):
Wow.
Okay.
I feel like.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (02:37):
more than 10 years.
That's why I made the face whenshe said 10 years at Revolution.
I.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (02:42):
Time wise, man, like time really
does.
Um, but great.
So thank you both for making mefeel like a slacker compared to
what you all do.
Uh, appreciate that.
But Tracy, you know, 200 PortCos you work alongside a chief
of staff.
So just because we have a numberof chiefs of staff listening and
principals and fellow colleaguesof chiefs of staff, can you just
(03:03):
give us a little flavor of howthat is set up and what your
interactions are like with thechief of staff?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (03:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm, I'm gonna say somethingbefore I even get to that, which
is I've worked with a number ofchiefs of staff over the course
of my career, and I have to saythey are without a doubt the
smartest people I have everworked with.
I take.
I think it takes a real uniqueskillset, such a high level of
operational rigor and really,um, almost a sixth sense for
(03:32):
external and internalstorytelling.
And I was very excited when youbrought up this topic because I
have worked with the same chiefof staff here for the 10 years
that I have been here.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (03:43):
Oh wow.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (03:44):
I think our relationship is really
foundational.
I mean, she's a fantasticprofessional.
She's had a number of reallyinteresting experiences, both in
the public and private sector,and I think our relationship is
the reason that so much of ourcommunications is successful.
In particular, our executivecommunications platform, because
(04:06):
we have a high profile founder,both in the DC area and within
the broader tech community.
And I couldn't do my job well inparticularly, in particular in
that space if I didn't have abigger, broader understanding of
what was impacting him, how itwas connected to the rest of the
organization, our organizationalgoals.
(04:28):
Um, so, you know, we, we meetregularly, we communicate so
often.
Um, it's just such a successfulpartnership and I really
respect, um, everything that shehas brought to the table.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (04:41):
Beautiful.
And are you interacting with herdaily, weekly?
What types of interactions areyou having or what types of
conversations are you having?
Uh, with her?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (04:50):
I wanna say hourly, but
definitely, definitely daily.
I mean, we're a smaller teamhere at Revolution, right?
So it might vary depending onthe size and complexity of the
organization, but definitelydaily.
Um, and.
You know, that's kind of, youknow, I think the reason it's
worked so well is because wehave, of course, regular
communications where we havemeetings that we're at, you
(05:12):
know, throughout the week.
But I think because our level ofcomfort, um, is so, is so
successful, you know, we'retexting each other all day to
double check things.
Um, and she's just such a greatsource of information.
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (05:26):
Great, and so can you tell folks a
little bit as I understand it,and please, please jump in here.
You are working with all thesecompanies at various stages and
you're helping executives,founders, leaders understand
where.
Communications and ahead ofcommunications might come into
play, which is very differentdepending on the company stage
(05:47):
and industry, and I'm sure likecompany and founder specific,
whatever.
But can you dive into that andtell us a little bit about that?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (05:53):
Yeah, no, definitely.
And you're absolutely right.
I mean, communications is anart, it's not a science.
And even within the sameindustry, if I was talking to
two companies.
At the same stages of growth, Imight have completely different
recommendations.
So, um, it's hard to makeblanket statements, but given
the number of portfoliocompanies that you have, you
know, you have to imagine we tryand do a lot of things where we
(06:14):
create resources that arebroadly applicable and helpful
to as many founders as possible.
Um, and I guess the first thingI would say, um, is when we're
working with companies, it's.
You know, are, are we in thatproactive stage of
communications where we'retalking about playing offense,
where we're talking about brandbuilding, reputation building,
narrative building, or you know,very often companies come to us
(06:38):
when they're in crisis mode andyou know, it's unfortunate that
they come to us when they're inthat space because my message to
them always moving forward isthat actually.
There aren't reactive.
You don't wanna be reactive, youwanna be ready, right?
And if the first time you'rehaving a meeting about a crisis
is during that crisis, you'vefallen far behind.
(06:59):
And so my, my message to thecommunications people that I
work with is, you really can'tthink about those things in two
buckets.
They really have to go intandem.
And so how are you setting thestage even if you are, you know,
a seed stage or a series acompany so that you are prepared
for both phases ofcommunications.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (07:19):
And what are some of the things that
someone can do at an early stagecompany where it's like, Hey,
Tracy, we're like, we have nobudget.
We have a dream.
You're talking aboutcommunications.
What do I do?
Um.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (07:29):
Yeah, it, it's really hard, right?
And a lot of these companies,they're young, they're scrappy,
they're resource constrained.
But even if you can't build thetype of robust comms function
that we often think about ortalk about with later stage
companies, you can build a commsculture.
And there's a lot that thesecompanies are doing that
actually are communi that wouldqualify as communications.
(07:50):
They just don't recognize thatthey're doing that.
So the first thing I say is youhave to really.
Create that, that capabilityinternally.
So even if you don't have a headof comms, decentralized
communications does not work.
There needs to be a point personthat is a point person.
Maybe you're lucky enough tohave a few people that can be
(08:11):
your comms team, but it needs tobe centralized so that someone
is owning that.
And eventually, if you are luckyenough to hire outside
resources, that is your internalpoint person.
then what I think is reallyvaluable and comms firms can
help, um.
Companies do this.
But I also think a lot of them,truthfully can do this on their
own.
They're just not taking the timeto get some of the thinking on
(08:33):
paper is what is your messaginghierarchy?
So that can be, there are tonsof ways to do this right?
But the way I tend to thinkabout it is first and foremost,
what is your value proposition?
What are you delivering and forwhom are you delivering it for?
And the second is, what isunique about you?
So what?
What are you doing that otherscannot build?
(08:56):
is your team?
Right?
And this is where you get intowhat I think a lot of companies
already have that are supercompelling.
What's their origin story?
How did you find that painpoint?
then it's what's, what's themission of your company?
And this is the one to twosentences that actually should
really never change.
And unless your company engagesin a, in a really.
Massive pivot.
(09:18):
Um, and then finally, and thisis the most challenging piece of
it, and we could have an entirecall about, um, on its own, is
distribution.
How are you getting that storyout there?
And there's a huge debate in thecommunications community I.
With over something that they'vedubbed going direct, right?
So now you're starting to see aton of executives, founders in
(09:38):
particular that are using socialmedia, emails, listservs,
whatever you know, is works forthem, um, to take charge of
building that narrative, notrelying on the mainstream media
or news sources.
communicate the value of thatbrand.
And we've seen a ton of successwith that in our portfolio
(10:01):
founders that LinkedIn inparticular has been really
effective.
Um, and I would say, you know,they're building their
narrative, but they're alsobuilding their presence.
I
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (10:10):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (10:10):
Um, Mike, if you saw Axios just came
out with a study they did withMorning Consult, where I think
it was eight out of 10 adults,you know, are associating
positively or negatively acompany or a brand based on that
CEO's profile and brand.
And a lot of that has to do withfounders and CEOs going direct.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (10:32):
Yeah, so I wanna get to where the
handoff comes in with Mike andsome medium and larger stage
companies.
But just for, for the chiefs ofstaff listening, oftentimes
they're.
Employee number one or employeenumber five at this startup.
And they are doing everythingfrom head of operations and
sales and marketing and productand compliance and head of
(10:54):
janitorial services and throw oncommunications.
So I think what you said aboutbuilding a culture of
communications.
Is really good and setting thatfoundation.
And then you had also mentionedwhen you can bring on a
full-time resource or even likean official part-time resource.
So maybe just touch on if, ifyou're talking to a chief of
staff who's like, I, I haveeverything I have to do,
(11:16):
everything.
Um, how they build that solidculture of communication.
And then when that inflectionpoint comes when we can hire
someone part-time or we can hiresomeone full-time, what that
looks like.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (11:30):
Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting.
I think the first time Igenerally have this conversation
with a founder, um, or a chiefof staff, whoever is kind of
leading the charge with how tomaximize or take communications
to the next level tends to bearound a milestone.
So.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (11:46):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (11:47):
They have a funding announcement,
they have a product launch, theyhave a big hire and typically
you will hire an outsideresource before you have an
internal hire.
And I'm gonna leave it to Miketo talk about the pros and cons
of that.
But that's generally the way inthe in startup world, you people
will engage, um, with acommunications function and
(12:08):
there are all different routesyou can go when you hire
external support.
I think.
People don't realize, they veryoften think hiring outside, um,
consultancies involves, youknow, a five figure 12 month
retainer, and that's not thecase.
The communications
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (12:24):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025 (12:25):
so varied in particular, I.
And, you know, for techstartups, there are firms that
specialize in helping companiesof all different stages of
growth.
I even work with, um,consultants that have kind of
packaged various milestones.
So they will say like, okay, youhave a funding announcement.
Here are the five things youneed.
Here's the fee, here's thelength of time in which we are
(12:45):
going to work with you.
So that, that's the first point.
The second, and I, I, I know Imentioned this earlier, is
making sure you have theinternal resources to manage the
external resources.
So a lot of times companiesthink, okay, I'm gonna hire a
consultant.
You handle it, but thatconsultant is not in your
company every day.
And we'll get to that when wetalk about the benefits of
(13:06):
internal hires, right?
They, they do not know what'sgoing on.
They don't have a sense of theinternal politics.
They don't know what wasdiscussed or canceled, you know,
at a meeting three hours ago.
So unless you have thecapability to manage them
effectively, think you'rewasting a lot of time and money
'cause they're not gonna producethe results that you need them
to.
(13:27):
Um, and there are variousreasons where you might escalate
this or feel ready to, you know,bring it up, bring on, um,
external resources.
Again, whether it's one of theseannouncements or whether you
have a high profile founder,whether you're in a highly
competitive industry, sometimesthere are reasons where
companies will kind of, I, Ithink, accelerate getting some
(13:48):
resources where you might thinklike, oh, they're a pretty small
company.
Like, do they really needexternal support for
communications?
And, and they do.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (13:57):
Mike, what are some of the pros and
cons of internal versus externalhires?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (14:01):
Um, before I jump into that, I think
there's one thing that, uh.
That Tracy brought up I think isreally important, which is the
culture.
You know, the, the idea thatcommunications is this thing
that you bolt on.
some point in time, it is kindof a mistake that some founders
make.
Uh, I kind of liken your, yourthought process around
(14:22):
communication should be yoursame way as you think about
finance, right?
Yes.
There are certain aspects offinance that you need at
different stages along the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (14:30):
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (14:31):
You might not need a tax department
from the beginning.
You're gonna need that at somepoint in time, but you're
thinking about the financialaspects of your business from
the beginning, and you should bethinking about the
communications aspects of yourbusiness.
from the beginning as well,right?
You might not need to go out andlaunch, uh, you know, products
or worry about brand buildingfrom day one, but you should be
(14:54):
thinking about that as part ofyour process from the very
beginning of that, um, uh, of,of the inception of the company,
right?
So that as you start to thinkabout to, to Tracy's point,
inflection points where you say,gosh.
We now need help in executing,uh, a product launch.
We need help in strategizingabout how to build the brand.
(15:17):
That's when you begin to startto understand what kinds of
resources you might need, whatkinds you might wanna bring in
and why.
Right.
Just in the same way that youthink about, gosh, I can
probably get away with abookkeeper.
From a finance function, oh,we're gonna do a capital raise.
Now I need at least a, afractional CFO, if not a
full-time CFO to help me go anddo that process.
(15:39):
Right?
so when we start talking about,okay, what kinds of resources do
we utilize and why?
I agree with what Tracy saidearlier.
Um, it depends upon.
Where they are in their, intheir mindset and what their
expectations are and a littlebit what their budget is as
well.
Um, Tracy made a great point.
There are a wide range ofresources available.
(16:02):
There are some phenomenal peoplewho work independently, who work
on kind of a project basisaround certain things.
Um, there are firms that work onproject basis versus retainer.
You can go bring it in house.
I mean it, the biggest things,and Tracy made this point, um.
Having a consultant needs to bemanaged, and quite honestly, in
(16:23):
a lot of the earlier stagecompanies that we've worked with
in the past, it falls on thechief of staff because it really
should be something that the CEOis at least aware of and
thinking about, and the chief ofstaff.
In the ones that work reallywell, that we've worked really
well with, um, understand themessaging, understand the brand,
(16:43):
understand where the company istrying to be positioned relative
to the market, and can at leastcommunicate that to the external
resources so that the resourcescan deliver on that.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (16:56):
Yeah.
What makes a good.
Communications officer orfractional resource or part-time
person, what makes it, whattraits do you look for?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_ (17:07):
So I think there's probably three
important things.
One is you need to have someonewho, who understands your
leadership and what
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (17:17):
Hmm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (17:17):
are trying to accomplish in the
business, right?
That, that if you.
Come to a, uh, if you come to aconsultant, you say, we do X,
and they go, great, I've got it.
I'll take it from here.
That's a recipe for disasterbecause they're gonna go in a
direction that they're notaligned with where the
leadership is.
(17:38):
So they need to be goodlisteners, whether it's in-house
or external.
They need to be taking the timeto listen and learn and
understand where the business isreally trying to go and where
you are in that journey.
Right?
sometimes you're talking about,you know, uh, doing a fundraise.
You realize, gosh, they reallyhaven't done the brand work yet.
(17:59):
They haven't done the originstory yet, Gosh, I need to come
in and actually pull that out ofthe CEO and the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (18:05):
Yes.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (18:06):
okay, this is, this is the four
minutes that you're gonna usefrom now on, because that's what
you're using in the fundraisingpitch, right?
so there's, there's reallyimportant things that come out
of it.
And then third someone who is.
Detail oriented enough to followthrough and actually deliver.
Um, I hate to say there are anumber of people that we've run
(18:29):
into internally and externallywho are great idea people.
They are great at, atstrategizing and thinking about
the possibilities of where youcan go from a brand perspective
or even from a distributionperspective.
But they've gotta actuallydeliver on it at the end of the
day as well.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (18:48):
Yeah, you mentioned kind of the
messaging and brand and we, I'veworked with a number of
communications folks over theyears, and the best ones do what
you said, which is pull thestory out
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (18:57):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-20 (18:58):
people.
Because a lot of times,especially with founders,
they're, they're in it so deepand.
Every day.
And sometimes they can't seetheir own story or know how to
tell it without like, and thenthis happened, and then next
quarter and then this month, andthen I felt this way.
And then I was like, you'vegotta make this open-ended
story, especially if you'relooking for fundraising where
you include your personal storyand you include the narrative
(19:20):
arc of your company, but youleave it open-ended for the
funder to come in.
And, and say you could be partof this story.
So I have had wholeconversations around that, but I
love that you said they helpthem craft the story and pull it
out of them.
It's not that, um, they'retelling a story that could
already be told.
That process is bringing thatstory out.
(19:41):
So I just wanted to highlightthat, that piece.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (19:43):
and look the, it, it's incumbent
upon the CEO, the founding team,the, the, the chief of staff as
well, to help them understandthat they've gotta also put a
stake in the ground with theirnarrative, right?
We've run into a number ofcompanies, especially when
they're earlier stage, wherethey've approached the world
(20:06):
with a maximum.
Flexibility or optionality.
And that's enabled them to kindof like zigzag through a variety
of different challenges.
But what it's, what it's causedthem to do is actually not be
comfortable being.
Pinned into a corner, right?
Like you've gotta anchoryourself.
You've gotta anchor your storyin some way, shape or form, um,
(20:27):
in order to get through the nextstages, you know, whether it's
funding or product launch orwhatever.
Like who are these guys?
And, and some leadership teamsreally struggle with that
process.
They have to get comfortablethat they are going to be
defined at the end of the day.
Um, and it's hard, it's scarysometimes.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (20:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'll open it up to both ofyou.
What are some stories oranecdotes of when onboarding a
chief communications officer orcommunications resource goes
well and maybe what not to do?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (21:01):
Tracy, you've got, you've got way more
experience on this.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (21:05):
Yeah.
You know, I mean, it'sinteresting.
The other thing I was gonna add,just to build on what you just
said, Mike, is one thing that Ithink chiefs of staff do really
well is make sure that anycommunication, especially in the
early days if you are new to acomms function, is make sure
that that communications.
Stor that that story isauthentic, right?
So chiefs of staff have such agood read on the voice of, of a
(21:30):
principal, and so making surethat everything that's coming
out, I mean today, you know, youcan spot inauthenticity, right
off the bat.
And so any sort of brand seekingto communicate really is looking
to capture the voice.
And, you know, if you read aspeech and you're like, eh.
He wouldn't talk like that.
She wouldn't talk like that.
They wouldn't communicate thatway.
(21:52):
Um, so getting a read on that Ijust think is so helpful.
But to your question, in termsof onboarding agencies, I mean,
again, first and foremost,making sure that that agency or
that communications function orresource has a line in to the
organization so that they'regetting regular.
And real time updates.
(22:12):
I think at the beginning of anysort of relationship, whether
it's an external or internalcommunications hire, you need to
have a really strong.
Ability to articulate yourgoals.
Why are, why are you bringing onadditional communications
support?
What, what are the businessobjectives and how are you gonna
architect a communicationsplatform that really supports
(22:34):
that program?
So being clear and consistent tome are, are sort of the top two.
Um.
The top two things to take away.
And in terms of things that gowrong, I mean, gosh, you know,
like all of my, all of myexamples, um.
Are, are really pandemicrelated.
I, I had a, a friend in theindustry who called the Pandemic
(22:57):
Crisis Palooza, and it really,it really was, although I do
think it elevated thecommunications function.
And Mike, I'd be interested in,in your thoughts as to how
that's played out post pandemic.
Um, but you know, God, it'severything in terms of.
Uh, like my, my favoriteexample, or favorite is I, I
don't know if you rememberbetter.com, did layoffs, uh,
(23:20):
mass layoffs over Zoom rightbefore the holidays.
Um, you know, anything, I alwayshear from founders after a
crisis, like, oh, we didn'tthink they would notice.
We didn't think anyone wouldnotice.
Well, everyone noticeseverything these days and, you
know, to Warren Buffet.
Famous quote, it takes 20 yearsto build a reputation in five
(23:42):
minutes to destroy it.
I think it probably takes abouttwo seconds to destroy it in
this climate.
Um.
You really start to see thatany, anything and everything is
public.
And so communications teams thatdon't understand that a text
thread can be screenshot.
You know, we've seen that and,and put out on, on social media.
(24:02):
Really everything is public andso you have to have a strong
understanding of what that meansand how you might react.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (24:11):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (24:12):
Mike, any fun stories from your end?
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (24:16):
The, the ones that go wrong always
seem to be the, the sexier,funnier ones.
Um, we had a client severalyears ago that came to us, and,
and I admit when they first cameto us, I thought they were
almost too early stage.
For, to get involved with us.
And then we sat down with theleadership team and I began to
understand how brilliant theywere for asking for help, um, to
(24:39):
find, uh, a head ofcommunications.
We were working with, uh, a, acompany that now unfortunately
no longer exists, um, calledOhana Biosciences, that was, uh,
uh, funded by flagshipPioneering, which had created
Moderna and several otherphenomenal, uh, biotech
companies Uh, Ohana was focusedin family planning, and
(25:01):
specifically they were lookingat, uh, the, the male side of
infertility.
And, uh, we're starting to talkabout a, a technology or
process.
They had to increase spermmotility, um, which is a really
interesting thing to talk aboutfor three months in the market.
Lemme um, and so they started todescribe all this and, and they
had literally, I think it was 11or 12 people in the.
(25:25):
They were in this temporaryspace in Cambridge.
It was, it was as garage band asyou could imagine.
And we started talking throughit with the CEO and the COO and
what they landed on, the reasonwhy they said they needed help
was they knew that their, um.
That their, uh, ability to takethe technology and actually gain
(25:48):
scale was based on a being ableto reach clinicians so they
understood what that, thatcommunications journey looked
like to get clinicians to beginto pay attention.
They knew where they needed tocompete with kind of established
treatments like IVF, um, andalso, uh, uh, dovetail with IDF,
but they also understood.
(26:10):
How they needed to developcommunication strategies to
address both sides of the, ofthe couple.
Right?
So how do they go and engage theman in the relationship and how
do they go and engage the womanin the relationship?
And, and they didn't have it allfigured out, right?
But they understood those threethings and I went.
Oh my gosh, you're brilliantbecause you understand that your
(26:31):
ability to succeed in this is,you know, I'll say 40 to 50% the
technology and the science, butit's 50% the communications
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (26:41):
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_ (26:41):
to be able to get customers to want
to be able to use this.
And they're like, yep,absolutely.
And I was like, we are all in.
And it was, it was a phenomenalexperience and we placed someone
and, and they had a, awonderful.
experience for a couple ofyears.
Unfortunately, the technologyitself didn't take hold.
Um, but the work that they weredoing was phenomenal.
But it started with theleadership team really
(27:03):
understanding'cause I was readyto tell them, you shouldn't go
hire a, a head of comms.
You should go and use anexternal resource.
And only because they had reallymapped out.
The journey where I went, okay,you understand the scope of work
that you're gonna need thisperson to accomplish, and you
understand why you want them tocome in.
Because as the technologyjourney, uh, evolves, it might
(27:29):
change.
The messaging or the, or thenarrative as well.
Um, and so I was like, yep,okay.
Got it.
but there are plenty ofcompanies where we said, don't,
you know, don't go hire someoneyet.
Go and hire, uh, an externalresource first.
Um, gosh, I mean, there are,there are a number of, uh,
(27:50):
people who've done it wrong.
I, I try not to pick on peopletoo much.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (27:54):
Well
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (27:54):
What.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (27:55):
it's interesting'cause there's also
one piece, um, that I, I thinkis probably of paramount
importance, but maybe a littlebit less sexy to talk about,
which is budget
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (28:04):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (28:04):
what we do find that's really tricky.
Is people will start, companieswill start working with an
agency that has variedresources.
So they'll have social mediastrategists, designers, media
relations specialists, and thenwhen they start thinking about
an internal hire, I have thisconversation with them because
you really have to think about,are you gonna hire one person
(28:26):
that you.
Spec to replace all of thosecapabilities?
Or is this person going tomanage that external resource,
or can you hire two people?
So really looking at the nittygritty, what you're spending
your budget on with your agency.
Are you using the design teamwell?
Okay.
If that's the majority of, ofwhat you're spending time on,
maybe it makes sense to hire orpart-time.
(28:47):
You know, graphic designer andreally trying to figure out,
because these, these are bigexpenses and I think people
expect immediate results, andthese things take time.
Communications is multifaceted.
So really trying to balance whatyour needs are.
Um, and the, I think the chiefof staff can be really
instrumental in that, in thatconversation because they tend
(29:10):
to have.
A big picture view of what'sgoing on at the organization and
what perhaps the needs might be,you know, three months, six
months, nine months down theroad.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (29:19):
And
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090 (29:20):
I think,
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_1 (29:20):
a lot of time helping leadership
teams
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (29:23):
yeah.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (29:24):
down in communications into uh, uh,
finite sub-functions so thatthey are thinking about.
The right we're, we're makingthe comparison constantly to, to
finance or to hr, to otherthings that are being scaled,
right?
Where you went, gosh, I, I had abookkeeper, I used, you know, a
service.
Now I'm bringing it in-house.
(29:44):
I need this, I need that.
Right?
And understanding what it, whatthe trade-offs are to Tracy's
point in terms of, okay, if youtake your whole agency budget
and you hire one person, you'reprobably gonna end up being
disappointed at the end of theday.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (29:58):
It's an onboarding fail.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (29:59):
The, you know, the person's not gonna
be able to, to match what 8, 10,12, 20 people might be doing in
an agency.
with a depth, right.
Functionally each
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (30:07):
Sure.
Sure.
michael-patino_1_06-24- (30:08):
brings.
Um, but really beginning tounderstand what that, what that
journey looks like in terms ofbuilding a function.
And, and each one is different,right?
So we talk about employeecommunications as being a, a big
thing.
Usually companies will come tous and go.
Gosh, we need to build anemployee communications
function, and it's becausethey've gotten to the place, at
(30:29):
least I'll say in the oldentimes before the pandemic where
you couldn't put everybody inone room anymore, right?
You, you couldn't put everybodyin the lobby of the building
and, and talk to and have theCEO talk to'em all at once.
So now we need to think aboutbuilding infrastructure.
to be able to communicate morereadily with a, with a rapidly
growing employee base.
Um, those are natural, right?
(30:49):
But then there's trade offs.
What is the investment thatthey're gonna make financially
and otherwise, right?
'cause the other part of this isas this company grows, as this
communications function grows,as it evolves, there's more
required of the leadership team.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (31:05):
Mm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (31:06):
Their time and effort is part of this
function as well, and a lot of,uh, uh, founders miss out on
that and, and, and don'tunderstand that and get
frustrated by that.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090 (31:19):
I wanna touch on something you
said, which is comparing it to afinance function because most
people at understand at a basiclevel.
You've got like accounting andthen CFO and like forecasting
contingency plans.
I feel like a lot of peoplethink of communications as like
this monolithic thing that justkind of sits there, like, uh, so
maybe you can mention just somemore.
You mentioned we have, you know,the external pieces and crisis
(31:42):
communication and messaging andbranding.
You touched on the internalpieces like employee engagement.
Are there any other big ones orcommon ones you see get
overlooked or missed by people?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (31:53):
Uh, so I'll offer a couple, I'm sure
Tracy has some as well.
I mean, media relations is thething that most people are
looking for first and foremost,right?
So it could be as simplistic andegotistical as, you know, my CEO
wants to be on the cover ofWired.
And so that's the goal.
At the end of the
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (32:08):
Hey, that has his place.
Yep.
michael-patino_1_06-24-202 (32:10):
have that request.
Try to explain to them how thatworks.
Um, you know, the employeecommunications or internal
communications is a, is as aseparate part.
Those are kind of the twobiggest.
So we kind of talk aboutexternal versus internal.
Um, usually what we end uptalking about with leaders is
think about the differentaudiences that you're trying to
reach, right?
(32:31):
So, know, employees.
Customers, investors orpotential investors.
Um, in some cases you're dealingwith regulated industries, so
you might have to worry aboutregulators or elected officials,
especially if you're trying tobuild a building or a plant or
something like
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (32:46):
Right.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (32:47):
Um, up and down the value chain.
If you're working with resellersor you're working with partners,
how are you communicating withthem?
That's something that thisperson can actually help you
with.
And, and I've watched a numberof CEOs go.
God.
Yeah.
Gosh.
Like they understand need to usethem to help talk to our
resellers more.
Yes, absolutely.
Please use them and listen tothem in that regard.
(33:08):
But I mean, we, we talk aboutthe audience model more because
it helps people then think abouthow to utilize resources against
that and how to think about thecommunications that they're
using and say, oh, this thingthat we're saying over here to
employees.
Our investors are absolutelygonna find out because
somebody's gonna post it onReddit.
(33:29):
and so we need to be aware ofwhat the implications of that
is.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (33:33):
Well, I think the audience model is
really smart because most peopleget that it's intuitive.
And also your sperm mobilityexample, they had identified
their key audiences, theirexternal audiences, and that got
them the 40 or 50% where thensomeone could come and go, oh,
okay, like these are your threestakeholders, constituencies,
and the.
The narrative and story changesa little bit.
(33:55):
Not that you're lying ormanipulating it, but it just
changes it depending on theaudience.
So I think the audience modelthat, that makes a lot of sense.
So, sorry Tracy, you're gonnasay something?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (34:03):
No, no.
The only thing I'd add to that,um, and it kind of fits within
your model, um, but kind ofcrosses all audiences is that
you're really starting to see alot of companies invest in
individuals solely dedicated todigital or social media and or
content creation.
Um, and that is, I think, youknow, because of this going
direct, this idea that we aregoing to kind of.
(34:25):
Take hold of this brand buildingprocess, and we're not just
gonna rely on press or thirdparty stakeholders.
Um, and you know, again, as Imentioned, this is a big topic
in the communications industryand I, I, you know, just is
going direct paramount it, youknow, how much reliance should
we place on press and thirdparty stakeholders?
I'm of the mindset that it needsto kind of be balanced because
(34:46):
there's still a lot ofcredibility when a member of the
press or a third partystakeholder says something
positive about you.
But I get that.
That's another conversation.
Um, but I will say in hiring forcontent and, and digital media,
I mean, it's really interesting.
I was struck when you weretalking about being able to pull
the story out of founders orexecutives and.
You're starting to see actuallya lot of former reporters and
(35:08):
journalists find their way intocommunications roles.
It's actually very, um, prettyprevalent in the venture space
and investment space.
And I think that's largelybecause they do such a great job
with story building, withextracting that story.
Um, and then you're, in additionto kind of these, you know,
social media strategists, you'realso starting to see
(35:29):
organizations hiring editors.
Right, so they actually arehiring someone who is solely
dedicated to creating andcurating content, which I think
is a really interestingdevelopment.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (35:42):
And then if we look at a more
established company who has afull-time chief communications
officer, who is a member of theC-Suite team, is running
internal and external, youmentioned as that.
Role grows more time investmentis needed from the CEO, from the
founder, from other members ofthe team.
But if A CEO is looking at theirexecutive team and saying, how
(36:05):
are we doing?
How is each individual doing?
How do you know a chiefcommunications officer is doing
good for a lack of a betterphrase?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (36:14):
Yeah.
Well, so Mike, I can, I can handit to you to talk maybe a little
bit more about how, how peoplehire and the various things
they're looking for that theymight be holding this up
against.
You know, there are so manythings out there today that
people use to measure thesuccess of their communications
programs.
You know, various, we could gothrough everything from the
(36:36):
various like engagement metricson social media surveys, you
know.
programs that measure how, howoften and how well internal
communications are resonating.
I tend to think about it justbroadly speaking for this
purpose, is that a really goodCCO is gonna bring you crisis
before they arise andopportunities before they're
(36:59):
obvious.
So this is not someone who's afirefighter or a cheerleader,
they're a strategist and Ithink.
Previously, and Mike, I'd beinterested in your thoughts on
this too.
It was almost thought of toomuch as a service function.
And as I mentioned earlier, I, Ireally think the pandemic
changed that.
It's not that organizations hadnot evolved until that moment,
(37:21):
but I just feel like it reallysolidified the role of the
communications officer in theC-suite and having the same, you
know, it can be challenging whenyou don't have a p and l in an
organization.
And to me that reallyhighlighted, okay, even if you
don't have that, you are a keypart of this team and your
strategic advice is critical inhelping us reach our business
(37:44):
goals.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (37:46):
Yeah.
I, I would say, just to, to thatlast point, Tracy, the, the
impact of the pandemic more thananything else was that it made
CEOs.
Actually understand what each ofthe functions in their company
does because they had to, theyhad to look at every aspect of
their company and say, how arewe going to potentially
(38:07):
transform or utilize differentaspects and, and emphasize
different aspects or differentfunctions within our company in
order to help us operate goingforward.
Right.
So maybe the facilities teamtook a bit of a backseat because
you weren't using facilitiesanymore, but they were, you
know, adding value in a, in avariety of different ways.
(38:27):
Um, you know, going forward,communications obviously took a,
a front seat on a lot of the,the aspects of, uh, of, you
know, coming out of thepandemic.
Um, you know, to go back to thequestion in terms of, you know,
what makes someone succeed.
I, we actually work with CEOs tokind of.
(38:48):
Develop that, that understandingfor themselves, you know, what
are the three or four thingsthat you want to see them
achieve?
Um, what is, what is happeningin the business as a result of
it?
And it can be to Tracy's point,um, you know, eradicating
barriers, right?
So again, to use a regulatedindustry model, how do we, how
(39:09):
do we engage a regulator sothat.
They weren't challenging us.
I think the, the, the cryptospace has been very successful
at that over the last couple ofyears.
In particular, you go and lookat what they've done from a
communications or a corporateaffairs perspective.
When you start to engagegovernment affairs and policy
and advocacy is part of that andkind of create a bigger umbrella
(39:29):
that's integrated, they've donea successful job of reducing or
removing barriers.
Um, not so much.
Uh, uh, advocating or tellingthis amazing story about crypto,
I think that's what they weredoing three or four years ago.
The last year or two hasactually been more about
reducing and taking away, andthat's the ones you've be seen
be very successful in thatspace.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (39:51):
And I am wondering too, how much of
it is there's the external.
Brand and messaging.
There's like the reputation andcredibility piece of that, but
also like what do we stand forwhen you hear this brand name or
this founder name, like boom,boom.
Here are the two things that youknow about or you think you know
about this company or person.
Same thing internally, do, doesthe rank and file person know
like, oh, this is what beingpart of this company and being
(40:14):
part of this team means, and howI contribute to that story.
It was funny, I was listening toan interview.
Um.
It was with Ron Howard whodirected Apollo 13,
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (40:24):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (40:24):
and he was talking about hiring Tom
Hanks as, uh, I think it wasJohn Lovett or who, who was one
of the astronauts that went upthere.
You know, Houston, we have aproblem and people wanted other
actors besides Tom Hanks and thestudies before that film come
out.
It was like no one would believethat Tom Hanks would be an
astronaut, and Ron Howard said,but everyone would want Tom
(40:45):
Hanks back safe on earth becausethat was his brand.
Like everyone loves Tom Hanks.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24- (40:50):
Right, right.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (40:51):
and it's just like, it reminded me
of Yeah, it was kinda like you.
Yeah.
So it kind of reminded me, youknow, you kind of have this, um,
like core thought or baseline ofa company or someone in your
head, and then when crisis doescome or when something comes to
challenge that you already havean established story.
So I'm wondering, like, that'sjust something to throw out
(41:12):
there.
Is that part of a, acommunications project plan?
tracy-van-grack_1_0 (41:16):
Definitely.
And also, you know how that tiesto recruiting, right?
You know, particularly in thetech space, like it's a tight
talent market.
And your ability to tell thatstory and to get your employees
to believe in that story andbelieve that they're furthering,
uh, a mission that they believein, or producing a product or a
service that they believe in,you know, pays dividends for
(41:38):
your.
your HR team and trying torecruit people who wanna be a
part of your team,
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (41:44):
And nowhere is that more important
than in earlier stage companiesbefore you've gotten venture
capital money to begin with,right?
convincing people to come work.
Typically under market value,um, based on either challenge,
opportunity, you know, impact,um, and you're, you're selling a
vision.
And for the companies thatactually can, can do that
(42:08):
quickly, and it's, it's usuallyverbally, it's, you know, and it
almost feels like you're makingit up on the fly, but if you say
it four or five times, that'sthe truth.
That is your, that is yournarrative at the end of the day.
Um, and because you're gonnahave four or five people sitting
in a room together in front ofcomputers working on something,
you go, why are you all here?
And they're all gonna say thesame version or enough of the
same version.
You go, okay, that's the truth.
(42:28):
That's, that's who you are,that's who you want to be.
Um, so it's, it's an interestingchallenge.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (42:34):
Is there I am.
I imagine there can be a big gapbetween what I think of myself
and then what other people, whatother people's story are of me,
whereas like, we need to closethis gap.
And is that sometimes thatdifficult conversation is that
sometimes people are open to it?
How does, how does that rollout?
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (42:54):
I think it depends.
Okay.
I think it depends on the personthat, if, if you're talking
about, you know, communicatingto a founder or a leader, I
think it just depends on their,their previous experiences.
I think if you have a, wherewe've run into issues is when
you have a pretty.
Um, successful serialentrepreneur, this is their
third or fourth company.
(43:16):
They've, it goes both ways.
They've either been reallysuccessful such that, you know,
reality checks don't resonate orthey've had previous bad
experiences with press
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_0 (43:27):
Hmm
tracy-van-grack_ (43:27):
communications such that it held, holds them
back from telling their story.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (43:33):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
michael-patino_1_06- (43:35):
successful is an interesting to use, right?
Because we've worked with, we'veworked with CEOs who have had
multiple exits.
That, that is a measure ofsuccess.
I have nothing to, to, to arguewith that.
But all of a sudden there issomething that, that isn't going
to be sold, that is now all of asudden reaching different
benchmarks that they've neverreached before as a CEO that
(43:56):
they've never experiencedbefore.
And their ability to turn aroundand look to the rest of their
leadership team and say, I need,I need guidance from you in
certain aspects of this.
Because we're, I'm personallynow hitting uncharted space.
Right.
And the chief of staff plays acritical role in both kind of
nudging the CEO as appropriatebecause they are really trusted
(44:18):
by the CEO to, to kind of bethat, that, that, you know, yang
to the yin, um, and to say,look, hey, you know, I think
we're, I think we're getting toun uh, uncharted waters around.
Personal brand, like you werenever tested, you were never
scrutinized in this way when yousold the last three companies.
'cause you got to a couplehundred million, you sold it
(44:41):
and, and pretty much nobodyoutside of the valley knew who
you were.
And that was great.
now on a bigger stage.
Right.
And part of that is based onwhere we are from a digital and
social media perspective today.
But part of that might be wherethe business is as well,
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (44:54):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_ (44:55):
I would say too, you know, tech
founders in particular tend tobe an optimistic bunch.
sometimes that optimism, whichI, I would attribute probably to
some of the most successfulinnovations of the last, you
know, decade or two decades canbe blinding.
So it does fall often on thecommunications officer, on the
(45:16):
chief of staff because they are,at the end of the day, like head
of principal management to, tooffer those reality checks
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025 (45:23):
Yeah.
tracy-van-grack_1_06- (45:24):
sometimes things aren't always going, you
know, perfectly.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (45:27):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_09 (45:28):
As we wind down here, what's one
more thing that you have wannadispel?
A misconception or a piece ofadvice or word of wisdom out to
communica chief communicationsofficers to executives.
Anyone else just hearing andlearning about this space?
michael-patino_1_06-24-2025 (45:45):
The only piece of advice I would
offer in this community is it'snot someone else's problem.
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (45:52):
Hmm.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (45:52):
Hiring does not make it someone else's
problem, right?
Just in the same way that youhired A CFO, you are still
responsible for the profit andloss, and that means you need to
understand how to read yourprofit and loss statement in
order to be able to do that,right?
If you're going to be.
The CEO you need to understand,you need to play an active role
in your narrative, in yourorigin story.
(46:14):
You need to understand that youare the face of the business
and, and that has both greatopportunities, but also great
risks and challenges associatedwith it.
And so getting support, whetherit's internal, whether it's
external, whether it'spart-time, you know, however you
want to go do that, but gettingsupport to understand.
How to behave in that way as theface of the company and the
(46:37):
impacts of doing it.
I mean, Yohan Musk is eitherbrilliant because he is gone
direct, or he's an imbecilebecause he is blown through more
chief communications officers inrecord time than anybody else
I've ever known and clearlydoesn't listen to what they have
to say.
Um.
But I would argue that he'sprobably made different points
(47:00):
in his life a lot harder thanthey needed to be because he
wasn't willing to listen to thecouncil.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2 (47:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's fair.
Um, I, I guess I would just addto that where we've seen
founders and this, this issomething that's, that's
actionable where we've seenfounders really be successful
with brand building is they makeit a community activity.
And this is also where, youknow, the chief of staff and
the.
The communications officer canbe really helpful.
So have so many tools at ourdisposal, right?
(47:30):
And the founder is super activein brand building, but you have
investors, you have partners,you have customers, you have the
people in your family andfriends, and your work community
that are cheering you on.
You have employees.
And so when you look at buildingthat.
Brand, you want everyone to kindof, you know, be singing from
the same prayer book.
And so equipping yourstakeholders to be supportive of
(47:52):
the message you're trying to
emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_ (47:53):
Hmm.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (47:54):
and get out there.
I mean, you know, somethinglike, like a fundraise for
example, which I know we'vespoken about a couple of times.
Equipping those stakeholders toamplify your message has made
those moments so much moresuccessful for so many of our
founders.
And it's actually, you know, arelatively simple thing to do.
You know, make it easy forpeople to cheer you on.
emily-sander_1_06-24-202 (48:14):
That's a great one.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Who do you help and how, and ifsomeone is listening, like I
wanna get in touch with Tracy orMike, what is the best way to do
that for both of you?
I.
michael-patino_1_06-24-2 (48:25):
Tracy, go ahead.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-202 (48:26):
No, I, you should feel free to reach
out to us.
We're at media@revolution.com.
I absolutely do see thoseemails, read them and respond to
them.
Um, I'm also, you know, onLinkedIn and X, so feel free to
reach out.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (48:40):
same.
I'm on LinkedIn.
You can reach meatMichael@patinoassociates.com.
Um, and I read every last singleone of them, so.
emily-sander_1_06-24 (48:50):
Beautiful.
We'll have all that informationin the show notes, but Mike
Tracy, thank you so much again.
michael-patino_1_06-24-20 (48:55):
Thank you.
tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-20 (48:55):
you, Emily.
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