September 10, 2025 • 23 mins
This episode talks about how leaders, especially a Chief of Staff, should handle layoffs with respect and care. Emily shares real-life examples of leadership teams deciding who gets cut, the importance of considering all other options first, and how to communicate tough financial realities to staff. He also discusses making fair decisions on who to inform, and gives practical advice on what to say in all-hands meetings when layoffs are on the table.
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Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:42 The Importance of Handling Layoffs Well
01:12 Personal Experience with Layoffs
01:54 Philosophy on Layoffs
02:58 Deciding on Layoffs
04:29 Planning and Coordination
10:56 Communicating Layoff Plans
15:40 Final Thoughts and Leadership Responsibility
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_2_07-25-2025 (00:25):
Let's be honest.
No one wants to run a layoffround.
No one wants to be on point fora riff, but if you're in the
room where decisions arehappening, especially as chief
of staff, you might very well bein this position.
How you handle that and how youstep up into that will say a lot
(00:46):
about your leadership and yourleadership values and your
leadership style and presenceand all those things.
It will say volumes to the restof the company about your
leadership team as a whole andwhat they're really about.
So I wanted to do an episode,and this might turn into two
'cause this is a large topic,uh, an episode or two here on
layoffs.
(01:06):
Not a fun subject, but animportant one.
If and when this does happen foryou, you wanna be able to do it?
Well, throughout my career I'vebeen involved, unfortunately, in
various companies, at variousleadership roles in layoff
rounds and reductions in forcewhere, okay, we're doing some
cuts, okay, this is affecting myteam directly, or it's affecting
(01:27):
another team right next to me,or I'm coordinating across
multiple departments, this typeof thing.
And I've seen them be done welland I've seen them be done
poorly.
And I would much rather havethese things be done well if
they have to have.
And so I'm trying to get anyinformation from my experience
that I have out to folks just incase they're in this position.
(01:49):
So that's what this episode ortwo is, is gonna be about.
Okay.
To preface the conversation,what I would say is.
There's two things that you canhold together as you approach
this process, as you movethrough this process, as you
reflect upon this process.
you wanna do everything in yourpower to conduct a layoff round
(02:11):
with as much dignity and respectfor the individuals involved as
possible.
That's one thing.
The other piece of it is layoffrounds and reduction in force,
while not pleasant, while not apleasant thing, they do happen
in business.
They are just part of thebusiness world at a certain
(02:32):
level.
And that's just how it goessometimes.
And I know there's lots ofdifferent reactions to that and
some listeners might bebristling at one or the other.
And I think sometimes it's alean, lean towards this side,
and sometimes it's a leantowards that side.
But I feel like it's alwaysholding both together and I
think you can do both together.
So I just wanted to preface theconversation with that general
(02:52):
philosophy, if you will.
That's just my generalphilosophy and guideline going
into these things.
All right.
Starting at the beginning is thedecision of whether or not to do
a layoff round at all.
And this is an importantdecision, one of many critical
decisions that A CEO, a chief ofstaff, a leadership team member
will have.
(03:12):
My general approach is to uselayoff rounds as the last
resort.
You have many levers.
You have numerous levers to pulland switches to switches to push
and pull across theorganization.
And as a CEO, as a chief ofstaff, you need to be putting
all of those on the table and atleast considering and assessing
(03:33):
a whole bunch.
And I would say there's, youknow, possibly dozens that you
can pull before you go, okay,we're gonna have to tell people
they don't have a job.
I know that people havedifferent opinions and different
ways to go about that, and I'veseen executives, which a, with a
much more flippant attitudetowards, we can just do a layoff
round.
(03:54):
Let's just cut those folks overthere.
Is that a thing that happens?
Yes, absolutely.
Again, my personal opinion, itshould be the last resort.
If not like we, we have toreally think about this before
we just kind of snap our fingersand, and make people go away.
okay, so let's say for thisexample we're talking about here
that layoffs are now becoming,mm, they're now becoming an
(04:17):
option.
We don't wanna do'em, but likenow we're in a position, we're
in a financial position where wemight have to do that and
everyone's kind of acknowledgingand sensing, mm, this might be a
thing we have to address and wehave to attend to.
all right, so who is involved inthese discussions when we're
saying, okay, we're discussingthese things, it's on the table.
Who, who's at the table?
(04:37):
It depends, but certainly theCEO.
And then it might be a smallergroup on the leadership team.
So it could be CEO, chief ofStaff, C-E-O-C-O-O-C-E-O, chief
of Staff, and COO, chiefFinancial Officer.
So CFO could pop in here'causeif we're talking numbers and
we're talking forecast andprojections and contingency
plans, you might need the CFO inthose, in those tight
(05:00):
conversations as well.
Most of the time, the entireC-Suite team is involved at some
level in these discussions.
Let's say, all right, this is onthe table.
We've had the core group ofleadership team talk about this
and we want to have a plan inplace if we need to go down this
(05:23):
route.
If we need to do a layoff, wewanna make sure we're doing it
right.
We wanna make sure it'sthoughtful.
We wanna get all our ducks in arow and just make sure we have
this thing thought through.
We're not shooting from the hipor panicking and saying, okay,
like tomorrow guys, we're gonnado a layoff round.
Let's just, let's, let's just doget this thing done.
So it might be CFO.
I need some contingency plansfor if we have to cut deep, if
(05:44):
we have to cut medium, if wethink we can get by with a
smaller layoff round.
Here are some.
Inputs from the market thatwe're seeing.
Here's some inputs from theclient churn.
Here's some inputs from whateveris kind of causing the financial
distress that has gotten youinto this position to have to
consider a layoff round.
I mean, C Ffo should know aboutall these, but just kind of
(06:05):
running through that together asa group.
What are our inputs here?
What are we seeing?
How do we wanna craft and tee upour contingency plans?
Okay, CFO Go come up with someplans.
And then at the end of the day,this is where it kind of gets
crass.
Give us a number.
And this number can come fromthe CEO based on a
recommendation from the CFO.
It can come from the board, itcan come from just the CEO
(06:27):
themselves, whatever it is.
At some point it's a number.
Okay?
This can be anything.
5 million.
Okay?
this depends on your company,like 5 million from salary cap,
it could be 300,000.
It could be, you know, 150million, whatever, like
depending on your company sizeand depending on what that
headcount looks like and all therest, what's the number?
Then it becomes a discussion,and this might be where you open
(06:49):
it up to the larger C-suite teamand say, Hey, we've done some,
we've done some calculations,we've done some numbers.
Here's the number.
We have to hit the, one of thedecisions to discuss.
Is where does it make sense tomake these cuts?
If we're looking across thebusiness, where does it just
make sense as a business, as anoverall business to make these
(07:12):
cuts?
Maybe it's from, clearly it'sfrom one area of the business.
Um, it's from engineering.
Maybe, oh, we have anoverstaffed sales force.
Let's cut some sales folks.
Maybe it's, Hey, we need toconsolidate some of our customer
service teams.
Okay.
This is where it getsinteresting because a chief of
(07:33):
staff can help facilitate andremind people that as a C-Suite
team member, you are on twoteams.
You were on two teams, you areon your functional team, so
operations, product compliance,marketing, sales, all those
functional teams.
You have that hat on and you arealso part of the leadership
team.
(07:53):
You are a leadership team memberwho.
Needs to advocate on behalf ofwhat's best for the business
overall, what is best for theteams overall.
And that's a, that's can be asubtle distinction, but an
important one, especially now.
So we're not talking, you know,we're not talking.
Be defensive, put your walls up,hoard your resources, defend
(08:14):
your people.
Go fight.
It needs to be a conversationamongst the leadership team.
And where I've seen topperforming leadership teams
thrive is where they go, okay,um, this is really tough, but it
makes sense for folks, for myteam to go.
'cause we need folks over thereon your team.
And it also could be, all right,my team is not directly
(08:35):
affected, but I see some prettysignificant changes happening in
these two other teams that areright next to me.
And, okay, if, if we're gonna dothat, if we're gonna cut deep on
your team, you can like, let'sshare our, share some of my
resources for the next sixmonths.
Hopefully we can bring folksback in six months, but like,
you're gonna need some help.
I can pull these five peoplefrom my team to help you.
(08:56):
Just stand that thing up andhold, serve on your team for at
least six months.
if those types of discussionsstart happening, that's when you
know you have a thrivingleadership team.
So where do these cuts.
Need to happen from where doesit make sense for the business
overall?
If you're in this position whereyou're even considering a layoff
round, something's not goingright, and so this might be an
(09:20):
existential question.
We're like, for the company tosurvive, what do we need to have
happen here, guys?
What do we need to have happenhere as a team?
Okay?
Then it might be an exercise of,okay, now go put your functional
leadership hat back on.
And this is where it gets crassagain.
But we need a list.
We need a list from every singleperson on the C-suite team of
(09:43):
who would need to be cut.
Who would be your recommendationto be the top 10 people, the top
five people, the top 50 people,whatever it is for you.
And the who does this might beinformed by the previous
discussion on where it makessense.
If everyone's just in agreement,Hey, it's engineering.
I'm just using that as anexample.
It's engineering.
So, you know, head ofengineering, um, might be the
(10:04):
CTO, might be head of product,whatever you call it.
They're gonna have to go maketheir list.
Many times it's, look, itdoesn't matter where this comes
from, we're all gonna have toget to the number.
And so, to be fair, or just, youknow, it makes sense for
everyone to, cut some people itmight be all right, everyone go
think about it and come backwith a list from your, from your
(10:25):
department, from your respectivedepartments, and then we'll come
back and talk about it.
sometimes those lists just go tohr, so it's a confidential
thing.
Sometimes it's a groupdiscussion.
It just depends on many, manyfactors about your team makeup
and dynamic and what's happeningthere.
Um.
But that's where it is.
You know, we're talking numberson a spreadsheet, we're talking
(10:47):
names on a list, and it's just,it's a tough conversation and
not pleasant, but this issometimes what needs to happen.
So those discussions havehappened, the list has been
done.
Okay.
Now it gets to the point of dowe tell people, Emily, do we
tell the rest of the staff thatthis is gonna happen or this
might happen?
(11:09):
My general philosophy here forall announcements, not just
around layoffs, but just in allfor all announcements in
general, is this informationgonna be relevant and helpful to
your audience?
Is it gonna be relevant?
Does it have to do with them,and is it going to help them?
For this particular audience.
That audience can be an audienceof one.
So one person, or it can be anall hands meeting or anything in
(11:31):
between.
But given who you're talking to,is this gonna be relevant and
helpful?
So I'm trying to, let me, I'mthinking, trying to explain
relevant and helpful.
If you're talking to Sam overhere and Sam is in, I don't
know, the sales operations teamand you're having a one-on-one
conversation with him and youstart talking about Jenny over
in accounting and how herbenefit package has this, this
(11:54):
and that, and Sam's looking atyou going, uh, okay, that's not
really relevant to me.
I hope Jenny does well.
I hope she has a good benefitpackage.
But that's not super relevantinformation, that's not
relevant, that doesn't haveanything to do with Sam.
Um, nor is it probably helpful.
It might be helpful for likegeneral context, but not really.
(12:17):
You could have a situationwhere.
Let's say over in salesoperations, You've got Raul and
Sam and they're team members andRaul's kind of, you know, go
with the flow.
More laid back, I'm doing myjob, I'm doing a good job.
You have some information, I'lltake that in.
Okay.
It might happen, it might not.
Gotta, gotta, good.
Sam might freak out with everysingle data point he get.
(12:41):
Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait, what'shappening?
Is that gonna happen tomorrow?
Like, what am I doing with my,it might throw him to pieces.
So what might, while somethingmight be relevant to everyone on
the sales operations team, itmight be.
Helpful to Raul, or maybeneutral, but it's not gonna be
helpful to Sam'cause it's gonnafreak Sam out.
(13:03):
It's gonna unnecessarily causehim worry and anxiety.
Okay, so the, I just, that's anexample to kind of explain
relevant and helpful.
Now when you're making thedecision of like, do we tell
people, who are we talking abouthere?
Who, whose people?
This can be the next layer ofleadership.
So maybe SVPs or VPs, maybemid-level managers.
And then you have rank and filefolks.
(13:24):
Do we need to bring in the SVPs?
Sometimes SVPs are brought inwhen you're making the list
'cause they're closer to it.
Uh, sometimes not.
Do we wanna tell the largerorganization that's a decision?
Do you know if one team isaffected?
Are we gonna start to front runcommunications with that team
only type of thing.
So all of these discussions canbe happening at this process
(13:47):
and.
There can come a juncture wherethere can come a scenario where,
okay.
We have individuals in thisgroup, we wanna tell this
particular group.
And we've not got lots ofindividuals within that group.
Some people it's gonna behelpful for, and some people
it's not.
What do we do?
And that, that comes to, okay.
Uh, what's the greater good herefor the team as a whole, for
(14:09):
this group as a whole?
Is it relevant and helpful?
Is it more, is it more helpfulto tell them than not?
Or, or not?
Like, and that can be factorslike where are we in the
decision making process?
Are we being very cautious, uh,cautious and saying, let's just
get this plan in place.
We're probably not gonna have touse it.
This is just out of, anabundance of caution type of
(14:30):
thing.
Might not be worth gettingpeople all riled up over, like,
we've got a dozen other stepsbefore we even bring that one to
the forefront.
We've got a dozen, dozen otheroptions that I think are gonna
go, are that I think are gonnaget us back into a better
financial position.
Okay.
It might be a decision, let'snot tell folks.
'cause we don't want to distractthem and worry them for no
(14:51):
reason.
That does no good.
That's not helpful.
It might be.
No, I mean, we've got some trustissues on this team for whatever
reason in the past, uh, thislayoff round is looking more and
more likely by the day we needto start front running and
communication, uh, and havingcommunication with folks.
Okay.
That could be a decision.
So lots of factors that go intothat.
(15:13):
That's just an example to, tokind of get you thinking about
what I'm thinking about.
Okay.
Then let's say that, let's sayin this example, you get to a
point with your leadership teamthat, hey.
This is becoming more likely.
The numbers are not turningaround.
We're doing everything we can totry to turn this around and
it's, and it's not happening.
(15:34):
we are now talking aboutpeople's salaries.
We're now looking at numbers ona spreadsheet.
By the way, one thing before Igo into communication here, by
the way, one other lever you canpull if you get into the salary
zone, where now we're talkingabout salaries.
We've exhausted our list of 12other things hasn't worked.
We're talking about salaries.
C-Suite team members tend tomake the most money.
(15:56):
They tend to have the biggestnumber on a spreadsheet in terms
of salaries.
One option is for them to take apay cut so other people can keep
their jobs.
I've been in this position, andwe've actually done this on
leadership teams that I've beenon.
This can extend down to SVPs andVPs, et cetera, et cetera.
Bonuses were the first thingthat went for our group, so we
just were like, no one on theleadership team was getting
(16:17):
bonuses.
And then certain folks, thehighest paid folks on the
leadership team took a salarycut for a temporary basis, and
that was enough to get us to thenumber we needed.
If it goes beyond that, and it'slike, okay, we've done that, or
for whatever reason, we'veforgone, uh, forgone, we've
forego, we forego that optionand we go with another option.
(16:39):
Now we have to talk aboutlayoffs and people losing their
jobs.
Okay.
Communication.
All hands meeting.
Let's say it's an all handsmeeting.
Holy cow.
Alright.
What I would suggest here is,first of all, don't jam yourself
up into a timeline.
I know sometimes you can't helpit, but if you are like, look,
(17:01):
we're in advance talking tocontingency plans.
We have time, we have time, butwe still feel like it's gonna be
the best thing to get thisoption out there and kind of
start getting people's headaround it and maybe socializing
this is an option and talkingabout that.
Then what I would say here istry to give people the overall
(17:22):
picture and the context for whythis might happen.
And in this case, it's, it tendsto be easy'cause there's a
financial distress situationhappening here.
Revenue is not where we want itto be.
Um, our profit margins took ahit from X, Y, or Z reasons,
operational reasons, or whateverthe industry happened.
(17:42):
The, the competitor came,everyone knows that the
competitor did this to us, da dada dah.
Okay.
Whatever it is.
We're not hitting our numbers.
We ha we're in a, we're in a.
Financial position, we didn'texpect to be in, and sometimes
at all company meetings, youwill have shared the finances
with the entire team, not maybethe blow by blow, like row by
row type of thing.
(18:02):
You go over with your CFO orwith the board.
But most, a lot of companieswill share some sort of
financial status update at, atat least a high level.
So hopefully people have kind ofgotten the sense like, okay,
maybe we're like neutral andwe're not growing, but it's not
horrible.
now We've gone down for the pasttwo quarters now.
Okay, now we're going into ourthird quarter, and that graph
(18:26):
just turned red.
And the faces on the CFO, theCFO's face, it's gotten not
happy face.
Okay?
So maybe they're picking up onthat trend, but it could be a
point of.
There's a gap we have afinancial gap from our forecast
to our actuals.
You know, this is, this issomething that we are certainly
paying attention to.
(18:46):
We are actively addressing thisis a thing, like this is a
thing, that's the message.
This is a thing.
And it's all of my leadershipteam.
I've asked all of my leadershipteam to take a look at this and
we're actively working on it,type of discussion, type of
messaging.
And then within that, I thinkthe option of a layoff could
come up in a number of differentways.
(19:06):
I was actually just talking to achief of staff who was in a,
when, in a similar situation towhat I'm describing, and he was
saying, Emily, I think my CEO isgonna get the question of, are
you gonna do layoffs?
And we were going through thetalk tracking response to that,
and how to coach his CEO throughthat.
And what I said, and what I'llsay to you here is saying
(19:26):
something like.
As we've just seen, we're not inthe financial position.
We, we would've liked, wethought, you know, the product
was gonna do this, this, andthis.
We thought this was gonna turnaround faster than it did,
whatever, whatever it is.
And so now we're looking at alloptions.
Now we're looking at alloptions, is a phrase you can put
out there.
layoffs are one of thoseoptions.
(19:46):
They are the absolute lastoption in my book.
I have, you know, I'm activelyworking with my team on all
these other things, and if youhave specifics of one, two,
here's the first two things thatwe're trying to do and that
we're actively working on.
You can describe those thingsand talk a little bit about what
you and the team or what thisother leadership team member is
(20:06):
doing, what have you, but say,you know, we're working on this
and here's, here's the next stepon this, this, and this.
And I've asked Carrie to go takecare of this for us.
And those are the things thatwe're doing.
We're looking at all options onthe table.
And if you wanna go further intothat, you might say something
like, right now I would saylayoffs are very unlikely, and
be careful with your descriptionhere,'cause people are gonna
(20:27):
hold you to that.
But if you're like, they're,they're unlikely, then say right
now at this point, everythingI'm looking at right now says
they're unlikely.
And we're gonna go through thesetraps and go through these open
switches before we get there.
But we are looking at alloptions at this point.
And if that's truthful and ifthat's where you are, and
that's, that's the discussionsyou're having with your
leadership team, I think sharingthat general sentiment and
(20:48):
general, um, notion with thelarger group is, is fair and
reasonable and it could berelevant and helpful for them if
it's, and again, you can nuancethat and kind of change it to
whatever your situation andscenario is, but something like
that might be useful.
You might need to come instronger, you might need to have
your CEO go stand up there andsay, um, as your CEOI have
(21:10):
always been committed to beingtransparent and truthful with
you, and that's important to me.
And right now I need to tell youthat layoff rounds are a
possibility that we're having tolook at.
I don't like that.
I don't like to be in thatposition and I'm actively
pursuing every other option wehave.
And I have asked every singleperson on my leadership team to
(21:30):
work on this and this.
So option A and option B, and weare actively pursuing these
things.
I have asked and likespecifically go through kind of
what's happening there.
Talk through, here are thefactors at play here.
Here's what we're looking at tomake this decision.
Here's what needs to happen inorder for us to not have to go
down the layoff path.
Here's what you can do.
(21:52):
If there's any specific actionthe audience can take, they love
that because you've just giventhem some news.
It cause energy in them.
It causes anxiety and concern.
okay, what do we do?
What do we, how can we help?
How do we channel this energythat we have?
So it might be a specific taskor a new task or an additional
task people can do.
It might be, look out for thisthing.
Or if you hear stuff aroundthis, um, let your manager know.
(22:14):
It might be, guys, you know, Iknow this is not great news to
hear, but in any scenario, doingthe best job you can in the role
you have right now is gonnaserve you in the team best.
And any scenario here, pleasetake care of our customers, take
care of each other, um, followthe process, do the things you
need to do to do a good job inthe role you have right now.
(22:34):
So whatever the call to actionis from that announcement, I
would, I would make that crystalclear for people.
So you don't just wanna dropthis news on someone and just
have people kind of float aroundand wallow in it.
You wanna give them clear,distinct action points if you
can, even if it's just do thebest you can at your job.
Um, do continue doing anexcellent job.
We know that you're all topperformers or whatever it is,
(22:56):
whatever that talk track lookslike.
Um, make that announcement.
Um.
Whatever that, whatever thatmessaging needs to be, just make
that clear call to action CTA,make that announcement.
Let's be honest.
No one wants to run a layoffround.
No one wants to be on point fora riff, but if you're in the
room where decisions arehappening, especially as chief
of staff, you might very well bein this position.
How you handle that and how youstep up into that will say a lot
(00:46):
about your leadership and yourleadership values and your
leadership style and presenceand all those things.
It will say volumes to the restof the company about your
leadership team as a whole andwhat they're really about.
So I wanted to do an episode,and this might turn into two
'cause this is a large topic,uh, an episode or two here on
layoffs.
(01:06):
Not a fun subject, but animportant one.
If and when this does happen foryou, you wanna be able to do it?
Well, throughout my career I'vebeen involved, unfortunately, in
various companies, at variousleadership roles in layoff
rounds and reductions in forcewhere, okay, we're doing some
cuts, okay, this is affecting myteam directly, or it's affecting
(01:27):
another team right next to me,or I'm coordinating across
multiple departments, this typeof thing.
And I've seen them be done welland I've seen them be done
poorly.
And I would much rather havethese things be done well if
they have to have.
And so I'm trying to get anyinformation from my experience
that I have out to folks just incase they're in this position.
(01:49):
So that's what this episode ortwo is, is gonna be about.
Okay.
To preface the conversation,what I would say is.
There's two things that you canhold together as you approach
this process, as you movethrough this process, as you
reflect upon this process.
you wanna do everything in yourpower to conduct a layoff round
(02:11):
with as much dignity and respectfor the individuals involved as
possible.
That's one thing.
The other piece of it is layoffrounds and reduction in force,
while not pleasant, while not apleasant thing, they do happen
in business.
They are just part of thebusiness world at a certain
(02:32):
level.
And that's just how it goessometimes.
And I know there's lots ofdifferent reactions to that and
some listeners might bebristling at one or the other.
And I think sometimes it's alean, lean towards this side,
and sometimes it's a leantowards that side.
But I feel like it's alwaysholding both together and I
think you can do both together.
So I just wanted to preface theconversation with that general
(02:52):
philosophy, if you will.
That's just my generalphilosophy and guideline going
into these things.
All right.
Starting at the beginning is thedecision of whether or not to do
a layoff round at all.
And this is an importantdecision, one of many critical
decisions that A CEO, a chief ofstaff, a leadership team member
will have.
(03:12):
My general approach is to uselayoff rounds as the last
resort.
You have many levers.
You have numerous levers to pulland switches to switches to push
and pull across theorganization.
And as a CEO, as a chief ofstaff, you need to be putting
all of those on the table and atleast considering and assessing
(03:33):
a whole bunch.
And I would say there's, youknow, possibly dozens that you
can pull before you go, okay,we're gonna have to tell people
they don't have a job.
I know that people havedifferent opinions and different
ways to go about that, and I'veseen executives, which a, with a
much more flippant attitudetowards, we can just do a layoff
round.
(03:54):
Let's just cut those folks overthere.
Is that a thing that happens?
Yes, absolutely.
Again, my personal opinion, itshould be the last resort.
If not like we, we have toreally think about this before
we just kind of snap our fingersand, and make people go away.
okay, so let's say for thisexample we're talking about here
that layoffs are now becoming,mm, they're now becoming an
(04:17):
option.
We don't wanna do'em, but likenow we're in a position, we're
in a financial position where wemight have to do that and
everyone's kind of acknowledgingand sensing, mm, this might be a
thing we have to address and wehave to attend to.
all right, so who is involved inthese discussions when we're
saying, okay, we're discussingthese things, it's on the table.
Who, who's at the table?
(04:37):
It depends, but certainly theCEO.
And then it might be a smallergroup on the leadership team.
So it could be CEO, chief ofStaff, C-E-O-C-O-O-C-E-O, chief
of Staff, and COO, chiefFinancial Officer.
So CFO could pop in here'causeif we're talking numbers and
we're talking forecast andprojections and contingency
plans, you might need the CFO inthose, in those tight
(05:00):
conversations as well.
Most of the time, the entireC-Suite team is involved at some
level in these discussions.
Let's say, all right, this is onthe table.
We've had the core group ofleadership team talk about this
and we want to have a plan inplace if we need to go down this
(05:23):
route.
If we need to do a layoff, wewanna make sure we're doing it
right.
We wanna make sure it'sthoughtful.
We wanna get all our ducks in arow and just make sure we have
this thing thought through.
We're not shooting from the hipor panicking and saying, okay,
like tomorrow guys, we're gonnado a layoff round.
Let's just, let's, let's just doget this thing done.
So it might be CFO.
I need some contingency plansfor if we have to cut deep, if
(05:44):
we have to cut medium, if wethink we can get by with a
smaller layoff round.
Here are some.
Inputs from the market thatwe're seeing.
Here's some inputs from theclient churn.
Here's some inputs from whateveris kind of causing the financial
distress that has gotten youinto this position to have to
consider a layoff round.
I mean, C Ffo should know aboutall these, but just kind of
(06:05):
running through that together asa group.
What are our inputs here?
What are we seeing?
How do we wanna craft and tee upour contingency plans?
Okay, CFO Go come up with someplans.
And then at the end of the day,this is where it kind of gets
crass.
Give us a number.
And this number can come fromthe CEO based on a
recommendation from the CFO.
It can come from the board, itcan come from just the CEO
(06:27):
themselves, whatever it is.
At some point it's a number.
Okay?
This can be anything.
5 million.
Okay?
this depends on your company,like 5 million from salary cap,
it could be 300,000.
It could be, you know, 150million, whatever, like
depending on your company sizeand depending on what that
headcount looks like and all therest, what's the number?
Then it becomes a discussion,and this might be where you open
(06:49):
it up to the larger C-suite teamand say, Hey, we've done some,
we've done some calculations,we've done some numbers.
Here's the number.
We have to hit the, one of thedecisions to discuss.
Is where does it make sense tomake these cuts?
If we're looking across thebusiness, where does it just
make sense as a business, as anoverall business to make these
(07:12):
cuts?
Maybe it's from, clearly it'sfrom one area of the business.
Um, it's from engineering.
Maybe, oh, we have anoverstaffed sales force.
Let's cut some sales folks.
Maybe it's, Hey, we need toconsolidate some of our customer
service teams.
Okay.
This is where it getsinteresting because a chief of
(07:33):
staff can help facilitate andremind people that as a C-Suite
team member, you are on twoteams.
You were on two teams, you areon your functional team, so
operations, product compliance,marketing, sales, all those
functional teams.
You have that hat on and you arealso part of the leadership
team.
(07:53):
You are a leadership team memberwho.
Needs to advocate on behalf ofwhat's best for the business
overall, what is best for theteams overall.
And that's a, that's can be asubtle distinction, but an
important one, especially now.
So we're not talking, you know,we're not talking.
Be defensive, put your walls up,hoard your resources, defend
(08:14):
your people.
Go fight.
It needs to be a conversationamongst the leadership team.
And where I've seen topperforming leadership teams
thrive is where they go, okay,um, this is really tough, but it
makes sense for folks, for myteam to go.
'cause we need folks over thereon your team.
And it also could be, all right,my team is not directly
(08:35):
affected, but I see some prettysignificant changes happening in
these two other teams that areright next to me.
And, okay, if, if we're gonna dothat, if we're gonna cut deep on
your team, you can like, let'sshare our, share some of my
resources for the next sixmonths.
Hopefully we can bring folksback in six months, but like,
you're gonna need some help.
I can pull these five peoplefrom my team to help you.
(08:56):
Just stand that thing up andhold, serve on your team for at
least six months.
if those types of discussionsstart happening, that's when you
know you have a thrivingleadership team.
So where do these cuts.
Need to happen from where doesit make sense for the business
overall?
If you're in this position whereyou're even considering a layoff
round, something's not goingright, and so this might be an
(09:20):
existential question.
We're like, for the company tosurvive, what do we need to have
happen here, guys?
What do we need to have happenhere as a team?
Okay?
Then it might be an exercise of,okay, now go put your functional
leadership hat back on.
And this is where it gets crassagain.
But we need a list.
We need a list from every singleperson on the C-suite team of
(09:43):
who would need to be cut.
Who would be your recommendationto be the top 10 people, the top
five people, the top 50 people,whatever it is for you.
And the who does this might beinformed by the previous
discussion on where it makessense.
If everyone's just in agreement,Hey, it's engineering.
I'm just using that as anexample.
It's engineering.
So, you know, head ofengineering, um, might be the
(10:04):
CTO, might be head of product,whatever you call it.
They're gonna have to go maketheir list.
Many times it's, look, itdoesn't matter where this comes
from, we're all gonna have toget to the number.
And so, to be fair, or just, youknow, it makes sense for
everyone to, cut some people itmight be all right, everyone go
think about it and come backwith a list from your, from your
(10:25):
department, from your respectivedepartments, and then we'll come
back and talk about it.
sometimes those lists just go tohr, so it's a confidential
thing.
Sometimes it's a groupdiscussion.
It just depends on many, manyfactors about your team makeup
and dynamic and what's happeningthere.
Um.
But that's where it is.
You know, we're talking numberson a spreadsheet, we're talking
(10:47):
names on a list, and it's just,it's a tough conversation and
not pleasant, but this issometimes what needs to happen.
So those discussions havehappened, the list has been
done.
Okay.
Now it gets to the point of dowe tell people, Emily, do we
tell the rest of the staff thatthis is gonna happen or this
might happen?
(11:09):
My general philosophy here forall announcements, not just
around layoffs, but just in allfor all announcements in
general, is this informationgonna be relevant and helpful to
your audience?
Is it gonna be relevant?
Does it have to do with them,and is it going to help them?
For this particular audience.
That audience can be an audienceof one.
So one person, or it can be anall hands meeting or anything in
(11:31):
between.
But given who you're talking to,is this gonna be relevant and
helpful?
So I'm trying to, let me, I'mthinking, trying to explain
relevant and helpful.
If you're talking to Sam overhere and Sam is in, I don't
know, the sales operations teamand you're having a one-on-one
conversation with him and youstart talking about Jenny over
in accounting and how herbenefit package has this, this
(11:54):
and that, and Sam's looking atyou going, uh, okay, that's not
really relevant to me.
I hope Jenny does well.
I hope she has a good benefitpackage.
But that's not super relevantinformation, that's not
relevant, that doesn't haveanything to do with Sam.
Um, nor is it probably helpful.
It might be helpful for likegeneral context, but not really.
(12:17):
You could have a situationwhere.
Let's say over in salesoperations, You've got Raul and
Sam and they're team members andRaul's kind of, you know, go
with the flow.
More laid back, I'm doing myjob, I'm doing a good job.
You have some information, I'lltake that in.
Okay.
It might happen, it might not.
Gotta, gotta, good.
Sam might freak out with everysingle data point he get.
(12:41):
Oh, oh, oh, wait, wait, what'shappening?
Is that gonna happen tomorrow?
Like, what am I doing with my,it might throw him to pieces.
So what might, while somethingmight be relevant to everyone on
the sales operations team, itmight be.
Helpful to Raul, or maybeneutral, but it's not gonna be
helpful to Sam'cause it's gonnafreak Sam out.
(13:03):
It's gonna unnecessarily causehim worry and anxiety.
Okay, so the, I just, that's anexample to kind of explain
relevant and helpful.
Now when you're making thedecision of like, do we tell
people, who are we talking abouthere?
Who, whose people?
This can be the next layer ofleadership.
So maybe SVPs or VPs, maybemid-level managers.
And then you have rank and filefolks.
(13:24):
Do we need to bring in the SVPs?
Sometimes SVPs are brought inwhen you're making the list
'cause they're closer to it.
Uh, sometimes not.
Do we wanna tell the largerorganization that's a decision?
Do you know if one team isaffected?
Are we gonna start to front runcommunications with that team
only type of thing.
So all of these discussions canbe happening at this process
(13:47):
and.
There can come a juncture wherethere can come a scenario where,
okay.
We have individuals in thisgroup, we wanna tell this
particular group.
And we've not got lots ofindividuals within that group.
Some people it's gonna behelpful for, and some people
it's not.
What do we do?
And that, that comes to, okay.
Uh, what's the greater good herefor the team as a whole, for
(14:09):
this group as a whole?
Is it relevant and helpful?
Is it more, is it more helpfulto tell them than not?
Or, or not?
Like, and that can be factorslike where are we in the
decision making process?
Are we being very cautious, uh,cautious and saying, let's just
get this plan in place.
We're probably not gonna have touse it.
This is just out of, anabundance of caution type of
(14:30):
thing.
Might not be worth gettingpeople all riled up over, like,
we've got a dozen other stepsbefore we even bring that one to
the forefront.
We've got a dozen, dozen otheroptions that I think are gonna
go, are that I think are gonnaget us back into a better
financial position.
Okay.
It might be a decision, let'snot tell folks.
'cause we don't want to distractthem and worry them for no
(14:51):
reason.
That does no good.
That's not helpful.
It might be.
No, I mean, we've got some trustissues on this team for whatever
reason in the past, uh, thislayoff round is looking more and
more likely by the day we needto start front running and
communication, uh, and havingcommunication with folks.
Okay.
That could be a decision.
So lots of factors that go intothat.
(15:13):
That's just an example to, tokind of get you thinking about
what I'm thinking about.
Okay.
Then let's say that, let's sayin this example, you get to a
point with your leadership teamthat, hey.
This is becoming more likely.
The numbers are not turningaround.
We're doing everything we can totry to turn this around and
it's, and it's not happening.
(15:34):
we are now talking aboutpeople's salaries.
We're now looking at numbers ona spreadsheet.
By the way, one thing before Igo into communication here, by
the way, one other lever you canpull if you get into the salary
zone, where now we're talkingabout salaries.
We've exhausted our list of 12other things hasn't worked.
We're talking about salaries.
C-Suite team members tend tomake the most money.
(15:56):
They tend to have the biggestnumber on a spreadsheet in terms
of salaries.
One option is for them to take apay cut so other people can keep
their jobs.
I've been in this position, andwe've actually done this on
leadership teams that I've beenon.
This can extend down to SVPs andVPs, et cetera, et cetera.
Bonuses were the first thingthat went for our group, so we
just were like, no one on theleadership team was getting
(16:17):
bonuses.
And then certain folks, thehighest paid folks on the
leadership team took a salarycut for a temporary basis, and
that was enough to get us to thenumber we needed.
If it goes beyond that, and it'slike, okay, we've done that, or
for whatever reason, we'veforgone, uh, forgone, we've
forego, we forego that optionand we go with another option.
(16:39):
Now we have to talk aboutlayoffs and people losing their
jobs.
Okay.
Communication.
All hands meeting.
Let's say it's an all handsmeeting.
Holy cow.
Alright.
What I would suggest here is,first of all, don't jam yourself
up into a timeline.
I know sometimes you can't helpit, but if you are like, look,
(17:01):
we're in advance talking tocontingency plans.
We have time, we have time, butwe still feel like it's gonna be
the best thing to get thisoption out there and kind of
start getting people's headaround it and maybe socializing
this is an option and talkingabout that.
Then what I would say here istry to give people the overall
(17:22):
picture and the context for whythis might happen.
And in this case, it's, it tendsto be easy'cause there's a
financial distress situationhappening here.
Revenue is not where we want itto be.
Um, our profit margins took ahit from X, Y, or Z reasons,
operational reasons, or whateverthe industry happened.
(17:42):
The, the competitor came,everyone knows that the
competitor did this to us, da dada dah.
Okay.
Whatever it is.
We're not hitting our numbers.
We ha we're in a, we're in a.
Financial position, we didn'texpect to be in, and sometimes
at all company meetings, youwill have shared the finances
with the entire team, not maybethe blow by blow, like row by
row type of thing.
(18:02):
You go over with your CFO orwith the board.
But most, a lot of companieswill share some sort of
financial status update at, atat least a high level.
So hopefully people have kind ofgotten the sense like, okay,
maybe we're like neutral andwe're not growing, but it's not
horrible.
now We've gone down for the pasttwo quarters now.
Okay, now we're going into ourthird quarter, and that graph
(18:26):
just turned red.
And the faces on the CFO, theCFO's face, it's gotten not
happy face.
Okay?
So maybe they're picking up onthat trend, but it could be a
point of.
There's a gap we have afinancial gap from our forecast
to our actuals.
You know, this is, this issomething that we are certainly
paying attention to.
(18:46):
We are actively addressing thisis a thing, like this is a
thing, that's the message.
This is a thing.
And it's all of my leadershipteam.
I've asked all of my leadershipteam to take a look at this and
we're actively working on it,type of discussion, type of
messaging.
And then within that, I thinkthe option of a layoff could
come up in a number of differentways.
(19:06):
I was actually just talking to achief of staff who was in a,
when, in a similar situation towhat I'm describing, and he was
saying, Emily, I think my CEO isgonna get the question of, are
you gonna do layoffs?
And we were going through thetalk tracking response to that,
and how to coach his CEO throughthat.
And what I said, and what I'llsay to you here is saying
(19:26):
something like.
As we've just seen, we're not inthe financial position.
We, we would've liked, wethought, you know, the product
was gonna do this, this, andthis.
We thought this was gonna turnaround faster than it did,
whatever, whatever it is.
And so now we're looking at alloptions.
Now we're looking at alloptions, is a phrase you can put
out there.
layoffs are one of thoseoptions.
(19:46):
They are the absolute lastoption in my book.
I have, you know, I'm activelyworking with my team on all
these other things, and if youhave specifics of one, two,
here's the first two things thatwe're trying to do and that
we're actively working on.
You can describe those thingsand talk a little bit about what
you and the team or what thisother leadership team member is
(20:06):
doing, what have you, but say,you know, we're working on this
and here's, here's the next stepon this, this, and this.
And I've asked Carrie to go takecare of this for us.
And those are the things thatwe're doing.
We're looking at all options onthe table.
And if you wanna go further intothat, you might say something
like, right now I would saylayoffs are very unlikely, and
be careful with your descriptionhere,'cause people are gonna
(20:27):
hold you to that.
But if you're like, they're,they're unlikely, then say right
now at this point, everythingI'm looking at right now says
they're unlikely.
And we're gonna go through thesetraps and go through these open
switches before we get there.
But we are looking at alloptions at this point.
And if that's truthful and ifthat's where you are, and
that's, that's the discussionsyou're having with your
leadership team, I think sharingthat general sentiment and
(20:48):
general, um, notion with thelarger group is, is fair and
reasonable and it could berelevant and helpful for them if
it's, and again, you can nuancethat and kind of change it to
whatever your situation andscenario is, but something like
that might be useful.
You might need to come instronger, you might need to have
your CEO go stand up there andsay, um, as your CEOI have
(21:10):
always been committed to beingtransparent and truthful with
you, and that's important to me.
And right now I need to tell youthat layoff rounds are a
possibility that we're having tolook at.
I don't like that.
I don't like to be in thatposition and I'm actively
pursuing every other option wehave.
And I have asked every singleperson on my leadership team to
(21:30):
work on this and this.
So option A and option B, and weare actively pursuing these
things.
I have asked and likespecifically go through kind of
what's happening there.
Talk through, here are thefactors at play here.
Here's what we're looking at tomake this decision.
Here's what needs to happen inorder for us to not have to go
down the layoff path.
Here's what you can do.
(21:52):
If there's any specific actionthe audience can take, they love
that because you've just giventhem some news.
It cause energy in them.
It causes anxiety and concern.
okay, what do we do?
What do we, how can we help?
How do we channel this energythat we have?
So it might be a specific taskor a new task or an additional
task people can do.
It might be, look out for thisthing.
Or if you hear stuff aroundthis, um, let your manager know.
(22:14):
It might be, guys, you know, Iknow this is not great news to
hear, but in any scenario, doingthe best job you can in the role
you have right now is gonnaserve you in the team best.
And any scenario here, pleasetake care of our customers, take
care of each other, um, followthe process, do the things you
need to do to do a good job inthe role you have right now.
(22:34):
So whatever the call to actionis from that announcement, I
would, I would make that crystalclear for people.
So you don't just wanna dropthis news on someone and just
have people kind of float aroundand wallow in it.
You wanna give them clear,distinct action points if you
can, even if it's just do thebest you can at your job.
Um, do continue doing anexcellent job.
We know that you're all topperformers or whatever it is,
(22:56):
whatever that talk track lookslike.
Um, make that announcement.
Um.
Whatever that, whatever thatmessaging needs to be, just make
that clear call to action CTA,make that announcement.
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