November 3, 2025 • 41 mins
Dr. Keith Dorsey talks about his book, "The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table," explaining what corporate boards do, why diversity matters, and how anyone - no matter their career stage - can start planning for a board role. He shares actionable advice on building skills across different business areas, networking intentionally (even mentioning how a janitor helped someone land a board seat), and how to confidently position yourself for board opportunities. The episode includes practical steps for mid-career professionals and breaks down the importance of "human capital" and diversity of thought on boards.
Links Mentioned:
- Keith Dorsey’s Website
- Connect with Keith Dorsey on LinkedIn
- Dr. Keith Dorsey’s book: The Boardroom Journey: Practical Guidance for Women to Secure a Seat at the Table
Free Resources:
- Strategic Planning Checklist
- Chief of Staff Skills Assessment Checklist
- A Day in the Life of a Chief of Staff
- Chief of Staff Toolkit
Get in Touch With Emily:
- Connect on LinkedIn
- Follow on YouTube
- Learn more about coaching
- Sign up for the newsletter
- Clarity Call with Emily
Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:34 Introducing the Book: The Boardroom Journey
02:11 Understanding the Role of a Board
03:22 Key Responsibilities of Board Members
05:54 Human Capital and Board Qualifications
07:28 Personal Reflections and Career Stories
09:11 Evolving Board Diversity
13:44 Challenges and Progress in Board Diversity
17:29 Intentional Career Planning for Board Roles
31:25 Networking and Social Capital
36:04 Practical Steps to Secure a Board Seat
39:06 Conclusion and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (00:25):
Dr.
Keith Dorsey, how are you sir?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2025 (00:27):
I am doing great, Emily.
It's great to see you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (00:30):
It's so good to see you as well.
Thank you so much for being on.
I appreciate it.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (00:33):
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (00:34):
So for the listeners, Dr.
Keith was kind enough to send mean advanced copy of his
manuscript, and I have, Iprinted it all out right here,
um, every page of it, which,which was amazing.
And it's called the BoardroomJourney, practical Guidance for
Women to Secure a seat at theTable.
And I try to read the books ofmy guests before they get on.
(00:57):
Um, yours was excellent, sothank you
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (01:00):
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (01:01):
it.
I really appreciate it.
I read every word and I was justsoaking it up and I don't tell
everyone that.
So, um, if I, if I didn't find,uh, find, you know, greatness in
the book I'll usually say I readyour book, but yours is truly,
is truly excellent and I know alot of work goes into it.
I know this was yourdissertation that you then
transformed into, uh, a bookfor, for regular people like me.
(01:24):
So I, I appreciate all that wentinto it.
The book is, follows four women.
Who are at different stages oftheir career and one of, and how
they got into board seats.
And one of the things that Ilove about it is, um, the book
talks about it's not too earlyto start your board journey.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (01:45):
yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (01:46):
people might think it's one day in the
future and you know, that'ssomething that you do after you
retire or things like this.
And it's not.
And you point this out in yourbook, one quote I want to, I
wanna kick off, kick us off herewith is it will never be the
right time to start your boardjourney and it will always be
the right time to start.
(02:07):
Um, um, so just to kick us off,can you give folks context?
We're like, I've kind of heardof a board, I know we have a
board of directors, but I'm notquite sure what that is or how
it came to be or what thefunction of a board is.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (02:20):
You know, Emily, I jokingly tell
people all the time that in mythirties I couldn't even spell
board and I wish.
Someone would've sat me down andreally talked about what a board
does and, and why you are goingto want to orchestrate your
career to, you know, ultimatelyat some point end up on a
(02:45):
private or a public corporateboard.
And that was really what thisbook was all about.
Was to make certain that people,and we focused more on women
throughout this book, trulyunderstand what a board's about,
what it does, and how you canorchestrate your career to best
(03:06):
position yourself for thatultimate goal.
And I, I challenge people to, toactually set a goal.
Reverse engineer that goal andthen execute on it.
And by doing it that way, youactually will get there.
a, you know, a corporate boardis.
Is about three.
(03:27):
Being a corporate board memberis about doing three things
basically.
Um, when you're on it is abouthaving fiduciary responsibility
and, and you're fiduciary,fiduciary responsible for.
Uh, the shareholders and toprotect the shareholders' money.
And then to take it one stepfurther, all the stakeholders
(03:50):
and, uh, pri the primaryfunctions of a board member are
three.
One is management.
That's the hiring and the firingof the CEO.
And, and some of the othermanagement team members, uh, as
well, mostly the CEO, but thenalso the compensation of the CEO
(04:12):
and some of the otherexecutives, um, responsible for.
S overseeing and gettinginvolved in the strategy of the
business.
And so under that managementcategory, which is one of the
three that I want to talk about,it's, you know, those are the
type of things that are coveredunder that category.
The second one is more advisoryor service.
(04:34):
when you're thinking about theadvisory side is bringing your
human capital experience to thetable and, and being able.
ask thought provoking questionsto help.
The management team, uh, seethings that maybe are around the
corner that they are notfamiliar with.
(04:57):
Um, bring your expertise to thetable to give advice and to be
that heir sounding board for theCEO at times.
All of that falls under thatsecond category of advisory.
Or service.
And then the third category isthe one we often hear about,
which is oversight andgovernance.
Um, you know, with yourfiduciary hat on, it's your
(05:19):
responsibility to make certainthat the management team is
focused on doing the things thatare right for the business and
not to just satisfy their ownpersonal interests and needs.
And so.
Those are the three main areasthat a board member or
independent director or anon-executive director would
(05:40):
actually focus on.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (05:42):
And we've certainly seen the third
one go wrong when we see newsstories about, oh, there was no
oversight on that one.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (05:48):
That's great.
Unfortunately.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (05:50):
And you mentioned, uh, interesting
term in the second one.
What is human capital?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (05:54):
Human capital is one of the five
capitals that I talk aboutwithin the book where it really
focuses on your experience, yourexpertise, your education that
you've accumulated orthroughout, throughout the
years, over the years.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (06:12):
Very cool.
And I mean, um, a lot of people,I should say, when, when I first
thought about boards, I waslike, I don't know if I'm
qualified.
I don't know if I am, uh, smartenough or have enough experience
or have the right kind ofexperience.
And you kind of dispel that inyour book.
And one of the things, one ofthe ways you do that is talking
(06:34):
about you bring the humancapital.
You just inherently in you, youhave a lot in you.
There are certain things thatyou need to.
Work on and maybe plus up yourknowledge in, in these different
areas, but you bring a lot tothe table, um, that you might
not even know about.
And so I like that, that humancapital part of the book,
squadcaster-7g7i_1_ (06:51):
Absolutely, and I challenge people to spend
time.
To reflect.
Reflect on your experiences,reflect on what brings you joy,
reflect on your successes.
Um, oftentimes we just say,yeah, we were successful, we
were
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (07:06):
I.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-202 (07:07):
or we were this.
But to truly peel it back andfigure out when I'm successful,
am I successful, I.
And what are the themes so thatwhen you reflect, you can
replicate, you can, uh,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (07:20):
Hmm.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (07:21):
you can do more of that
intentionally in the future.
So I challenge people to reflecton their human capital.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (07:28):
And one of the people in your book
was early in their career, Ithink they were right out of
college and they were having aconversation with their uncle,
and it so mirrored my ownexperience.
And so my own experience was Iwas in a car with my mom and dad
and they were in business.
They were very successful.
Business people in their ownright.
And, and I was very curiousabout, my mom was in marketing.
(07:48):
My dad was over here, he was avp.
Um, you know, like what did theydo?
Who did, who do you, who's yourboss?
Like, who's the boss of you?
And then who's their boss?
Um, and it always ended with theCEO.
And I was like, okay, the CEO islike the top person.
Got it.
And then they offhandedlymentioned, oh, but the board did
this, this, this, and the CEOhad to do that, that, that.
(08:09):
And I was like, wait a minute.
The CEO has a boss, like who arethese board people?
So it was, it kind of blew my,uh, you know, 10-year-old brain
at the, at the time of, oh,there's a board.
And so, um, there is someonethat the CEO has to report to
and has to account to.
Uh, and, and the individual inyour book was.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (08:29):
for a CEO, it can be lonely at the
top, and to have that boardthere that they trust could be,
you know, a great benefit.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (08:36):
For sure and you know, when I was
chief of staff and my part of myjob is to, is to be that
confidant for the CEO and tohave someone.
Right next to him in, in mycase.
But also we had some fantasticindependent directors on our
board who would come on site whowould very friendly, not
intimidating.
They were there to help.
They were from the industry andthey really helped us put, um,
(08:59):
we were going through Covid, sowe were having to change our
business plans and kind of howwe were approaching things, but
we had some fantasticindependent board members.
Can you explain some of theroles on the board for people
who might not be aware?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (09:11):
Yeah, for oftentimes, for many, many,
many years, the board memberswere former or active CEOs or
CFOs, and.
And that was just the pool ofpeople that the CEO or the board
would continue to pull from.
and it worked it didn't and, andwhat they began to uncover,
(09:35):
especially when you have a boardwith CEOs, uh, that may have
retired 10, 15, 20 years ago.
The business climate is dynamic.
It continues to change, and, andhaving a board filled with
historians, I would call them,they, you know, although the
(09:59):
prerequisite was that they weresuccessful, I.
Things continue to change somuch, and if they didn't keep up
with it, the board couldactually become antiquated and
won't be in the best position tomitigate their risk.
Over the past 10 years or so,uh, boards have been.
Challenging themselves in thenomination and governance
(10:22):
committees have been challengingthemselves to really analyze the
skill sets of the existing boardmembers today, and then take it
one step further.
Those that are elite boards willactually analyze the each and
every board member'scompetencies and what they bring
to the table.
And when you begin to look atthe skill sets and competencies
(10:44):
and you compare it to.
And, and measure it up againstthe strategy of the company for
the next three to five years.
Then and only then can theybegin to uncover where they have
a redundancy of skill sets ontheir board.
And I.
And a, I'm going to say gapswhen it comes to skill sets and
(11:05):
competencies as they relate towhat's needed to properly do
those three functions ofmanagement, service, and
oversight towards their goalsof, uh, you know, reaching their
objectives from a strategyperspective.
And when they begin to look atthings like that, they begin to
bring in people with differentfunctional skill sets around.
(11:31):
Supply chain around talent,around risk management, around
cybersecurity, around, um, youknow, various components.
And so they boards now arestarting to reach at not only
the, at the many different typesof C-suite roles, but also the
people that report to theC-suite.
(11:53):
And, and that's when.
We started to experience agrowth and some measurement and
boardroom diversity because whenyou are only recruiting CEOs and
CFOs, there were typically more.
Men in those positions than uh,women.
But when you began to look atthe c the many different types
(12:15):
of CXOs and their directreports, the pool of incredibly
talented people, um, moved fromhere to here and, and that's how
boards are looking today becausethey're moving away from just
the former and active CEOs and,um.
(12:37):
And that's, that's somethingpositive that I'm seeing in the
marketplace today.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (12:41):
So it started with CEOs and CFOs
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (12:44):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (12:45):
and the pool was, was this big, was
small.
And now you said elite boardsare broadening their pool and
saying, okay, let's take a lookat these other folks.
And that's bringing in newpeople.
It's funny, as you werementioning, putting together a
complimentary skillset of yourboard.
It reminded me very much ofbeing chief of staff and putting
together.
A complimentary skill set onyour C-suite, because that's the
(13:05):
chief of Staff's job.
It seems like that's happeningor hopefully happening.
Um, the next, the next level upone I'll, I'll, I'll read off
one more quote from your bookhere.
It was a, it was a study youcited and it said, women of all
racial and ethnic backgroundsheld 30.4% of seats of board
(13:26):
seats across Fortune 500companies.
This is in 2022.
Uh.
But women of fromunderrepresented, racial and
ethnic groups occupied only 7.8%of board seats.
I knew that number was gonna below.
I didn't know it was gonna bethat low.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (13:44):
Yeah, it, it, it is shocking and some
people think that status so lowbecause of malicious behavior
and, you know, there are, thereare bad people doing bad things
and good people to do
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (13:57):
I.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (13:57):
things from time to time.
But what I've uncovered fromresearch, it really doesn't stem
from that.
Can it?
Yes.
But it really doesn't.
Um, it comes from similaritytheory.
You know, people, if the boardis filled with, uh, and, and
with some of the Fortune 500 ands and p 500 boards, you know,
(14:19):
just 10 years ago, of the boardmembers were white men.
I.
And, and so if the, if the whitemen are sitting at a board table
asking who do you know, um, for,so that we could fill our next
board position, they would lookto the left, look to the right,
and they would think about thepeople that would know, and even
(14:40):
when they were challengingthemselves to bring on a woman
director.
Well, the people that were mostclosely related to their network
may have been white women.
And so that's why white womenhad a larger percentage at that
particular point.
And, and then when you thinkabout women of color, you had to
(15:02):
inter intersectionality of beinga woman plus of color.
Uh, oftentimes, um, men of colorwould get the role.
If they were seeking someone ofcolor before a woman of color,
but then in 2020, I.
Um, things began to change andwomen of color were growing and
(15:25):
getting more board seats becauseit was meeting some of the
social demands at thatparticular point.
They were meeting some of thesocial demands and so things
started to change.
So that number since 2022 hasgone up the percentage of, uh,
women of color on corporateboards, but it's something that
will just continue to evolveand, uh, a good.
(15:49):
consultant would challengeboards to think outside the box.
And a good search professionalwould teach boards to fish from
different fishing holes becauseour fishing hole might be the
one we know where we have asocial capital and our networks.
But a good consultant or searchprofessional will say, there are
(16:12):
incredible fishing holes here,here, and here, and you'll.
You'll meet many different typesof extremely well qualified
people and
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (16:21):
Where do you come?
Yes, thank you.
Where do you come down on I'minterested in this because, um,
I have been part of teams andorganizations where.
Uh, where I am, like the only,or the first in a group.
And then I've also been part ofteams and different
organizations who, who youmentioned social demands, who
(16:44):
are trying to meet a quota, whoare trying to meet a diversity
stat
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (16:48):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (16:49):
um, and.
The last thing that I want is tobe part of a team just to check
a box.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (16:56):
yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (16:56):
smart, I'm talented, I have creative
ideas.
I can bring things together in aunique way, and I wanna be.
I wanna be assessed on thatmerit.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:08):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (17:08):
if that's not good enough for a
certain team or if thatexperience isn't re relevant
enough, um, that's one thing.
Or if I'm just not a good fitwith that particular culture,
that's fine.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:18):
yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (17:18):
But I'm wondering kind of where you
see, like on the ends of thespectrum.
Um, I mentioned the ends of thespectrum there.
There's a lot of middle ground,but kind of where do you see
that push and pull comingthrough?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:29):
It's a great question Emily, and I'll
answer two ways and hopefullyI'll, I'll remember everything
that I would like to share, uh,when I am coaching executives
who are aspiring board members.
Or board members who are seekingtheir second or third board when
I'm coaching them and they sharewith me that they were selected
(17:51):
to interview for a board rolebecause they fit a certain
demographic, asked them to havethe intestinal fortitude during
the interviewing process to asksomeone, why did you choose me?
Why were you interested inmeeting with me?
I said, you know, just by askingthat question, it fors them the
(18:13):
opportunity to give you theanswers to the test.
So you know, what was it aboutyour human capital or your
social capital or directorcapital or whatever that made
them want to see you beyondwhatever demographic uh, they
were also seeking.
And if you don't like theiranswer, I.
(18:33):
To have the intestinal fortitudeto say this isn't a good fit for
me.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (18:38):
Yeah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (18:39):
Um, um, not many people are willing
to do that, but I really dochallenge people to do that.
Now, going back to, um, thespectrum, I.
Uh, today we're dealing with a,you know, uh, really a anti DEI
sort of environment and you'refinding more and more board or,
(19:00):
uh, companies that are saying,uh, uh, at least publicly saying
that they are no longersupporting diversity.
And I find that those that arevocal in that area.
Are oftentimes those that werejust checking the box
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (19:20):
Mm.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (19:21):
and, and they, in 2020, from 2020 to
2023 didn't wanna be seen as thecompany that wasn't concerned.
About
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (19:32):
Right.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (19:33):
social justice, uh, areas and the moral
imperative around diversity,equity, and inclusion.
And so because they were justchecking a box, they may have
been recruiting someone from,uh, for.
Token reasons and, and sothat's, you know, how I look at
(19:53):
that small group.
you have completely on the otherside of the spectrum, you have
those organizations that areshouting today from the
rooftops, that diversity.
Has been incredible for ourorganization and, and our, from
an employee standpoint, from aC-suite standpoint and from a
(20:14):
board standpoint.
And I could show you documentedproof and as to the business
imperative of having a diversityof thought on our board and in
our organization.
So you have the spectrum thatwe're just checking the box and
now they are publicly saying.
We're no longer supporting that.
(20:35):
And then you have on the otherend, those people that are
shouting from the rooftop thatwe stand behind this and we have
documented and empiricalevidence that this works.
Then you have the larger groupin the middle, and that larger
group I would call are thecompanies that are green
hushing.
Okay.
(20:55):
They've always believed in it.
They have documented proof.
They had it in their eight K,their 10 K, their websites,
their investor relationshipsection of, of their website.
Um, and they were shouting fromthe rooftop at one point, but
now they've.
Change the language.
They are no longer talking aboutit, but nothing has changed
(21:19):
within their organizationbecause they believe in it.
And so that term is called greenhushing.
So when you take the largepercentage of the companies that
are green hushing and not.
the media and then thepercentage that are shouting
from the rooftop.
You have a very large percentageof companies that still want to
recruit the best talent outthere from Amer perspective, but
(21:44):
fish from, but from different.
Fishing holes because of thecognitive diversity that they
bring to an organization.
And in my book I write aboutoptimal diversity.
And optimal diversity is thecombination of, uh, observable
slash demographic diversity plusdiversity of thought.
And the two together when you'reintentional about both is
(22:06):
optimal diversity and everyhuman being fits that category.
human being.
If you reflect on your culturalcapital, your director, capital,
human capital, all thesecapitals, well then you could
truly differentiate yourselfregardless of your ethnicity,
age, gender.
so, uh, it's those individualsthat were checking the box that
(22:31):
we as aspiring board membershave to be careful that we
aren't a token hire and have theintestinal fortitude to say.
This is not for me right now,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_080 (22:44):
I wanna highlight something you
said, which is in the news, wetend to see the extremes of the
spectrum, whereas the majorityof companies are, are doing it
and they're looking fordiversity of thought.
They just might not be in thenews'cause it's not newsworthy
or it's not the, you know, theflashy thing
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-1 (23:03):
they're
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (23:03):
to talk about.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_ (23:04):
advertising it any longer, and that's
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (23:05):
Yeah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (23:06):
but they haven't changed their
values.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (23:08):
Yeah, and I think the, the term
diversity of thought caught myear because I worked for, so,
um, I always like to tell thisstory.
So I've worked for, uh, a bosstwice and I was the chief of
staff to the CEO and I workedfor him two times at two
different companies.
And both times he had a C-suitethat was.
(23:29):
That had representation from allgenders and from all races and
backgrounds, educationbackgrounds.
That was a big one.
Oh, you're not pedigreed enoughto be on our csuite.
He was like, I don't care.
I don't care if you pass firstgrade.
If you can get the job done,then you're gonna be on my team.
And, and he.
Lit.
He never talked about race orgender.
(23:49):
He just brought on the bestpeople.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (23:51):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (23:52):
was just understood that in the
recruiting process, which I wasin, the interview loops on both
of these.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-1 (23:56):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (23:57):
I, I want the best people, bring me
the best talent to help thiscompany be successful.
And he, and he was, he is, I'mjust gonna say it, he won't mind
me saying this, an old, white,straight man.
And he was building theseamazing teams and he, he could
give two hoots about, you know,who was like, green, purple,
(24:18):
polka, dot, whatever.
He really didn't care.
And he had the best teams, andthose were two of the best teams
that I enjoyed working on.
It was, we challenged eachother, we encouraged each other.
It was just a good dynamic team.
And he, um, and he put thoseteams together and it was
understood.
It wasn't shouted from therooftops, it was just simply
understood that's what we weregonna do.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_0 (24:39):
Throughout the world, there are millions of
people that fit the descriptionyou just shared right there
where their heart is in theright place and they're really
focused around the businessimperative.
I want to do whatever I can tosurround myself with the most
incredible people to doincredible things in this world,
and that's what this is really.
(25:00):
All about, unfortunately, youknow, via or, uh, certain
organizations certain mediaoutlets and, uh, have confused,
the confused to make you thinkthat it can't, it can only, it
could be about diversity or itcould be about merit never
(25:20):
should the two marry.
And that
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (25:23):
False choice.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (25:24):
that is so wrong is it's, you know,
um.
Diversity and meritocracy docoexist, and the prerequisite
should always be about bringingin the very best in meritocracy,
always.
table stakes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (25:43):
And if someone's listening and is
like, look, I'm, let's say earlystage, middle, mid career, like
I still got 10, 15 years left,um, to do it.
You know, should I, should Ireally be starting to think
about boards now?
Um, I didn't know I could dothat.
Now that I've heard Dr.
Keith speak about this, like,okay, now my ears are perked up.
Uh, what, what do I do withthat?
You know, how do I set that goalto reverse engineer into what
(26:05):
types of things should, shouldthat person be, uh, doing
reading, meeting people?
What types of things should theybe doing mid, mid stage in their
career?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (26:14):
You know, mid stage, early stage,
late stage is never, never tooearly to get started.
In fact, the earlier the better.
And you mentioned in the book,you know, I, I.
I interviewed hundreds of womenthat, uh, from the government
and came from corporations andwent throughout, you know,
(26:37):
orchestrated their career to getto executive level and then
eventually to a board level andsome.
Were very intentional.
They knew as a teenager, that'ssomething we wanted do because
of family members or sponsors ormentors, people they looked up
to and others didn't figure itout until after they retired.
(26:59):
That's a more difficult way, butit varied and so.
And coming up with the fourindividuals, I took hundreds of
stories from individuals andhave successfully navigated that
path and then, uh, looked atwhat they did.
And the question I will alwaysask at the end of a qualitative,
(27:20):
uh, qualitative interview, ifyou can go back and tell your
younger self something, whatadvice would you give?
And lot of what they shared withme where they had similar themes
I put into those four FICcharacters.
And so the four protagonists area, you know, a 25-year-old,
(27:40):
brand new manager in a company,a 40-year-old, brand new senior
manager within the organization,a 55-year-old executive who says
she's going to retire in thenext three to five years and a
62-year-old.
See.
EO of a family business, secondgeneration family business,
who's going to turn the businessover to their much younger
(28:01):
brother.
four women said at those pointsthat they would like to serve on
a private or a public board.
So what should they be doing atthose stages of their careers?
And so someone that's earlystage to mid stage, they may be
on a singular track they justkeep getting promoted.
(28:22):
But it's all within this, thisvertical track.
And could they get on a boarddown the road if they made it
through to a executive rolethere?
Yeah, that describes me.
Um, I've been in, I was in salesmy whole 30 years in corporate
America, I was able to developthe skill sets to a point, uh,
(28:46):
where I was able to transitiononto boards, but as.
It's not the best way.
And those women that were veryintentional throughout their
career or they accidentally gotthere, uh, they, um, were able
to get positions outside of thistrack.
(29:06):
And so if that track was.
Just a legal track.
Some of them, uh, you know,after becoming general counsel
or right before that, maybemoved into a operations role or
moved into a sales, uh,leadership sort of role and
different things like that.
But to be able to go slightlyoutside your track and develop
(29:29):
new skill sets that are germaneto boards and, and when you're
able to do that, you become.
Way more attractive to a boardbecause boards may be seeking
today, as I mentioned before,Emily, functional experience,
but they don't want one trickponies that will only speak up
when we talk aboutcybersecurity.
(29:53):
want someone that can go deep incybersecurity, but a inch deep
in a mile wide, with a strongbusiness acumen in many other
areas.
And the term that we often hearused for that is.
Boards are looking for corporateathletes.
You know, people that canparticipate in many parts of the
(30:14):
conversation.
Chief of Staffs.
Are excellent at going an inchdeep in a mile y and asking
thought provoking questions,challenging their, um, direct
manager, whether that's the CEOor some other CXO.
Uh, they are excellent at that.
The boards are interested inpeople that can go a inch deep,
(30:36):
a mile wide, and are truecorporate athletes and someone
that mid-career can orchestratetheir career.
Where they can develop moreskill sets that are important to
boards are going to be moreattractive down the road.
And that's the sort of advice Igive, in the book so that people
(30:57):
can be more intentionalthroughout their career.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_080 (31:01):
I love the phrase corporate
athlete.
I'm now like, that's embedded inme.
So love that.
And I like the getting a broadrange of experience.
And for people listening, Keithwas making this kind of back and
forth slaloming motion with hishand, like a skier.
So go collect that broadexperience'cause it will help
you in your, in your, uh, boardjourney.
(31:21):
Um.
Also in your book throughout.
Throughout your book, you talkabout connections and
relationships and networking,but boards hire people they know
and they want to advocate forpeople they trust and know and
will make them look good whenthey refer someone in, but also
(31:42):
be capable and competent in thatseat.
So I think another thing thatpeople can be doing.
Is going out and meetingdifferent people and going out
and having the, the dinners orgoing to that networking event,
um, just to meet people.
And you never know, right?
Who is gonna open a door or, youknow, six months later, six
(32:02):
years later, who's gonna belike, Hey, I remember that
person.
Or, oh, I remember you, youreached out again.
Okay.
So can you just talk a littlebit about, uh, being intentional
about building thoserelationships?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (32:13):
From a social capital standpoint,
that was one of the things as asearch professional and also a
research around a researcheraround this that shocked me the
most, how people.
Found their boards and there arestudies that say, you know,
somewhere between 67 and 75% ofthe board seats that are filled
(32:34):
are filled by via your network,only a small percent percentage
come from search professionals.
Um, but the bulk comes from yournetworks.
And so one of the adv advice,one of the things that I share
with aspiring board members orpeople seeking their second,
third, or fourth board is totell anyone and everyone that
(32:58):
you are interested in the boardseat.
I mean, anyone, and a lot ofpeople think, you know when
you're seeking a board becausethe board is up here and then
you have your C-suite andexecutives and so on and so
forth, senior managers I'm onlygoing to tell the elite that I'm
interested in the board seat andthen no.
(33:20):
That's not how it works.
You'd be surprised how peoplefind their boards.
Um, you know, in, in the manyqualitative interviews, both
formally and informally thatI've conducted, they people will
share with me that they foundtheir board, their babysitter
share something with them, or,or, or let someone know that the
(33:42):
person they sit for is, is astrong board member, uh, the dog
walker.
dog walker.
a example that I often give is ajanitor within a organization
where that, that night janitorwould see this woman at least
two days a week, sitting at herdesk at seven, eight o'clock in
(34:05):
the evening, and the place isempty.
And finally one day he askedher, he, he said, I noticed
you're here late.
What do you do?
she shared her story in, in sucha way that enabled the, the
janitor to hear what she reallywas all about.
And so I'll, I'll pause for asecond to share one other bit.
(34:27):
I challenge people to taketheir.
Autopilot description ofthemselves that they give
they're at a cocktail party orsomeone asks you, uh, on sitting
next to you on a plane, what doyou do?
We go on a, this autopilot 23 to32nd sort of description, and we
often tell people what ourvocation is in those 23 to 30
(34:52):
seconds.
I challenge people to addanother seven to 11 more seconds
to that and go on autopilot,tell them that, and then say,
and I serve on two nonprofitboards and I'm looking for a
private board in this area so Ican pay things forward.
Just by doing that, like theexecutive did.
When a janitor asked what shedid, she shared that I also
(35:15):
serve on X number of privateboards and or, or I'm sorry, I'm
not.
Nonprofit boards, and I'mlooking for a private board in
this area.
Two weeks later, the janitor isat his sister's dinner party.
Sister talking to several peopleand saying, I'm having the
hardest time filling this boardseat.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (35:38):
You go.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (35:38):
And, and the janitor says, tell me
more about it.
Oh, you gotta meet this womanfrom my office that I clean and.
That was it.
She got on the board.
This happens all the time.
So by adding the additionalseven to 11 seconds to your,
your autopilot speech of whatyou do and who you are, it will
(36:00):
let anyone and everyone knowthat you're interested in the
board.
See, lastly, something else thatcame from a study that
completely blew my mind, Emily,regarding this, is that, um, we
grew up learning.
It's not what you know, it's whoyou know.
And that makes sense.
Okay.
That's, you know, how you end upgetting the job and different
(36:20):
things like that.
And what I've uncovered from oneof the studies was that it's not
what you know, it's not who youknow, it's who knows you.
Because
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (36:30):
Ah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-202 (36:30):
in this world, there's no longer
six degrees of separation.
When a search professional islooking for a board member, or
the nomination and governancecommittee from the board is
looking for a board member, um,we often ask, who do you know?
And people will start to sharenames.
(36:51):
And then we ve people that theysaid.
And when we vet, um, we're,we're getting information as to
who a, what you have to sayabout that individual in this
case.
Um, in this pre, pre-vetting, welearn so much about the
individuals.
(37:11):
So I share with aspiring boardmembers.
If you were sitting on a paneland you look out in the audience
and you see 30 people in theaudience that you know, there
are a thousand people in theaudience, by the time you're
done with that hour long panel,970 more people know you.
(37:37):
That you do not know.
And because they heard you onthe panel, they liked the points
you were making, they liked theway you think.
When they are asked, uh, who doyou know that could be great for
this board, they may think ofyou and you never set eyes on
it.
So it's not what you know.
(37:58):
not who you know, it's who knowsyou.
And do they have favorablethings to say about you?
Now if they don't have favorablethings to say about you, and,
uh, the nominations andgovernance committee, uh, begins
to do their research and theycan just look on LinkedIn and
see who they know that you knowsyou.
And if they don't have favorablethings, you'll never hear from,
(38:22):
you'll never even know that youwere up for that board position.
But if they do have favorablethings, search professionals and
non-gov committee members aregoing to reach out to you.
So I also share with people, letanyone and everyone know that
you're interested.
And if you've burnt some bridgesin the past, like a 12 step
program, I challenge you to goback and mend those
(38:44):
relationships to the best ofyour ability because you don't
know when people like me ineither one of my roles as a nom
nominations and governancecommittee member or a search
professional, I, I operate in.
You never know what I wanna callthem, and you want them to say
about you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (39:03):
Yes, it's Who Knows You.
I love that piece of advice.
I wish I could talk to you forlonger, but, uh, we'll wind down
here.
But for people listening, thebook is The Boardroom Journey.
Practical Guidance for Women toSecure a Seat at the Table.
If you don't know what a boardis, you know a little bit more
now, but certainly read the bookand it takes you through that.
It also takes you through thedifferent types of boards.
(39:23):
So private public companies,different company sizes, have
very different board makeups,uh, subcommittees and all those
different things you might hearabout, um, directors, managing
directors, executives, all thesedifferent roles.
And then what I love about yourbook, you listeners know I like
practical and tactical actionsteps, and you have charts and
(39:44):
rubrics and plans.
And so you can literally narrowdown if you're like, I'm at the
point where.
I don't just wanna learn aboutboards, I wanna start moving in
that direction with somespecific action steps.
Keith's book has all of thisoutlined down to identifying
three target.
Boards and companies with theprofile that you want, and then
(40:06):
coming up with your messagingand outreach to those
individuals and marrying uplike, do I have a complimentary
skillset?
And going through thatassessment.
And then like you mentioned, theseven to 11 seconds you wanna
add to your introduction andtalk track.
And for those of you who arelike.
I'm not on a board.
I can't say I'm on a nonprofitboard.
He has a version.
There's a version in there thatsays, you know, I'm looking, I'm
(40:28):
looking to go into my nextchapter and for ways to give
back, and I'm looking for X, Y,and Z types of board.
But being very specific withthat description and ask.
So all of that good stuff is inthere.
Will certainly have a link tothat book in the show notes.
But Keith, thank you so much forjoining.
If people.
Want to reach out to you or knowmore about who you, uh, who you
(40:49):
help and what you do for them.
Where is the best place to gofor that?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (40:52):
They can find me on my website that's
boardroom journey.com.
Boardroom journey.com.
And there you can see the typesof consulting that we do there
as well as individual coachingand accountability partnering
and different things like that.
And you can also find me underDr.
(41:14):
Keith D.
Dorsey on LinkedIn.
emily-sander_1_04-16 (41:18):
Beautiful.
We'll have all those in the shownotes as well.
Dr.
Keith, thank you so much.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (41:22):
Thank you, Emily.
This has been great.
Dr.
Keith Dorsey, how are you sir?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2025 (00:27):
I am doing great, Emily.
It's great to see you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (00:30):
It's so good to see you as well.
Thank you so much for being on.
I appreciate it.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (00:33):
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (00:34):
So for the listeners, Dr.
Keith was kind enough to send mean advanced copy of his
manuscript, and I have, Iprinted it all out right here,
um, every page of it, which,which was amazing.
And it's called the BoardroomJourney, practical Guidance for
Women to Secure a seat at theTable.
And I try to read the books ofmy guests before they get on.
(00:57):
Um, yours was excellent, sothank you
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (01:00):
Thank you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (01:01):
it.
I really appreciate it.
I read every word and I was justsoaking it up and I don't tell
everyone that.
So, um, if I, if I didn't find,uh, find, you know, greatness in
the book I'll usually say I readyour book, but yours is truly,
is truly excellent and I know alot of work goes into it.
I know this was yourdissertation that you then
transformed into, uh, a bookfor, for regular people like me.
(01:24):
So I, I appreciate all that wentinto it.
The book is, follows four women.
Who are at different stages oftheir career and one of, and how
they got into board seats.
And one of the things that Ilove about it is, um, the book
talks about it's not too earlyto start your board journey.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (01:45):
yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (01:46):
people might think it's one day in the
future and you know, that'ssomething that you do after you
retire or things like this.
And it's not.
And you point this out in yourbook, one quote I want to, I
wanna kick off, kick us off herewith is it will never be the
right time to start your boardjourney and it will always be
the right time to start.
(02:07):
Um, um, so just to kick us off,can you give folks context?
We're like, I've kind of heardof a board, I know we have a
board of directors, but I'm notquite sure what that is or how
it came to be or what thefunction of a board is.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (02:20):
You know, Emily, I jokingly tell
people all the time that in mythirties I couldn't even spell
board and I wish.
Someone would've sat me down andreally talked about what a board
does and, and why you are goingto want to orchestrate your
career to, you know, ultimatelyat some point end up on a
(02:45):
private or a public corporateboard.
And that was really what thisbook was all about.
Was to make certain that people,and we focused more on women
throughout this book, trulyunderstand what a board's about,
what it does, and how you canorchestrate your career to best
(03:06):
position yourself for thatultimate goal.
And I, I challenge people to, toactually set a goal.
Reverse engineer that goal andthen execute on it.
And by doing it that way, youactually will get there.
a, you know, a corporate boardis.
Is about three.
(03:27):
Being a corporate board memberis about doing three things
basically.
Um, when you're on it is abouthaving fiduciary responsibility
and, and you're fiduciary,fiduciary responsible for.
Uh, the shareholders and toprotect the shareholders' money.
And then to take it one stepfurther, all the stakeholders
(03:50):
and, uh, pri the primaryfunctions of a board member are
three.
One is management.
That's the hiring and the firingof the CEO.
And, and some of the othermanagement team members, uh, as
well, mostly the CEO, but thenalso the compensation of the CEO
(04:12):
and some of the otherexecutives, um, responsible for.
S overseeing and gettinginvolved in the strategy of the
business.
And so under that managementcategory, which is one of the
three that I want to talk about,it's, you know, those are the
type of things that are coveredunder that category.
The second one is more advisoryor service.
(04:34):
when you're thinking about theadvisory side is bringing your
human capital experience to thetable and, and being able.
ask thought provoking questionsto help.
The management team, uh, seethings that maybe are around the
corner that they are notfamiliar with.
(04:57):
Um, bring your expertise to thetable to give advice and to be
that heir sounding board for theCEO at times.
All of that falls under thatsecond category of advisory.
Or service.
And then the third category isthe one we often hear about,
which is oversight andgovernance.
Um, you know, with yourfiduciary hat on, it's your
(05:19):
responsibility to make certainthat the management team is
focused on doing the things thatare right for the business and
not to just satisfy their ownpersonal interests and needs.
And so.
Those are the three main areasthat a board member or
independent director or anon-executive director would
(05:40):
actually focus on.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (05:42):
And we've certainly seen the third
one go wrong when we see newsstories about, oh, there was no
oversight on that one.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (05:48):
That's great.
Unfortunately.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (05:50):
And you mentioned, uh, interesting
term in the second one.
What is human capital?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (05:54):
Human capital is one of the five
capitals that I talk aboutwithin the book where it really
focuses on your experience, yourexpertise, your education that
you've accumulated orthroughout, throughout the
years, over the years.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (06:12):
Very cool.
And I mean, um, a lot of people,I should say, when, when I first
thought about boards, I waslike, I don't know if I'm
qualified.
I don't know if I am, uh, smartenough or have enough experience
or have the right kind ofexperience.
And you kind of dispel that inyour book.
And one of the things, one ofthe ways you do that is talking
(06:34):
about you bring the humancapital.
You just inherently in you, youhave a lot in you.
There are certain things thatyou need to.
Work on and maybe plus up yourknowledge in, in these different
areas, but you bring a lot tothe table, um, that you might
not even know about.
And so I like that, that humancapital part of the book,
squadcaster-7g7i_1_ (06:51):
Absolutely, and I challenge people to spend
time.
To reflect.
Reflect on your experiences,reflect on what brings you joy,
reflect on your successes.
Um, oftentimes we just say,yeah, we were successful, we
were
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (07:06):
I.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-202 (07:07):
or we were this.
But to truly peel it back andfigure out when I'm successful,
am I successful, I.
And what are the themes so thatwhen you reflect, you can
replicate, you can, uh,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (07:20):
Hmm.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (07:21):
you can do more of that
intentionally in the future.
So I challenge people to reflecton their human capital.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (07:28):
And one of the people in your book
was early in their career, Ithink they were right out of
college and they were having aconversation with their uncle,
and it so mirrored my ownexperience.
And so my own experience was Iwas in a car with my mom and dad
and they were in business.
They were very successful.
Business people in their ownright.
And, and I was very curiousabout, my mom was in marketing.
(07:48):
My dad was over here, he was avp.
Um, you know, like what did theydo?
Who did, who do you, who's yourboss?
Like, who's the boss of you?
And then who's their boss?
Um, and it always ended with theCEO.
And I was like, okay, the CEO islike the top person.
Got it.
And then they offhandedlymentioned, oh, but the board did
this, this, this, and the CEOhad to do that, that, that.
(08:09):
And I was like, wait a minute.
The CEO has a boss, like who arethese board people?
So it was, it kind of blew my,uh, you know, 10-year-old brain
at the, at the time of, oh,there's a board.
And so, um, there is someonethat the CEO has to report to
and has to account to.
Uh, and, and the individual inyour book was.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (08:29):
for a CEO, it can be lonely at the
top, and to have that boardthere that they trust could be,
you know, a great benefit.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (08:36):
For sure and you know, when I was
chief of staff and my part of myjob is to, is to be that
confidant for the CEO and tohave someone.
Right next to him in, in mycase.
But also we had some fantasticindependent directors on our
board who would come on site whowould very friendly, not
intimidating.
They were there to help.
They were from the industry andthey really helped us put, um,
(08:59):
we were going through Covid, sowe were having to change our
business plans and kind of howwe were approaching things, but
we had some fantasticindependent board members.
Can you explain some of theroles on the board for people
who might not be aware?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (09:11):
Yeah, for oftentimes, for many, many,
many years, the board memberswere former or active CEOs or
CFOs, and.
And that was just the pool ofpeople that the CEO or the board
would continue to pull from.
and it worked it didn't and, andwhat they began to uncover,
(09:35):
especially when you have a boardwith CEOs, uh, that may have
retired 10, 15, 20 years ago.
The business climate is dynamic.
It continues to change, and, andhaving a board filled with
historians, I would call them,they, you know, although the
(09:59):
prerequisite was that they weresuccessful, I.
Things continue to change somuch, and if they didn't keep up
with it, the board couldactually become antiquated and
won't be in the best position tomitigate their risk.
Over the past 10 years or so,uh, boards have been.
Challenging themselves in thenomination and governance
(10:22):
committees have been challengingthemselves to really analyze the
skill sets of the existing boardmembers today, and then take it
one step further.
Those that are elite boards willactually analyze the each and
every board member'scompetencies and what they bring
to the table.
And when you begin to look atthe skill sets and competencies
(10:44):
and you compare it to.
And, and measure it up againstthe strategy of the company for
the next three to five years.
Then and only then can theybegin to uncover where they have
a redundancy of skill sets ontheir board.
And I.
And a, I'm going to say gapswhen it comes to skill sets and
(11:05):
competencies as they relate towhat's needed to properly do
those three functions ofmanagement, service, and
oversight towards their goalsof, uh, you know, reaching their
objectives from a strategyperspective.
And when they begin to look atthings like that, they begin to
bring in people with differentfunctional skill sets around.
(11:31):
Supply chain around talent,around risk management, around
cybersecurity, around, um, youknow, various components.
And so they boards now arestarting to reach at not only
the, at the many different typesof C-suite roles, but also the
people that report to theC-suite.
(11:53):
And, and that's when.
We started to experience agrowth and some measurement and
boardroom diversity because whenyou are only recruiting CEOs and
CFOs, there were typically more.
Men in those positions than uh,women.
But when you began to look atthe c the many different types
(12:15):
of CXOs and their directreports, the pool of incredibly
talented people, um, moved fromhere to here and, and that's how
boards are looking today becausethey're moving away from just
the former and active CEOs and,um.
(12:37):
And that's, that's somethingpositive that I'm seeing in the
marketplace today.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (12:41):
So it started with CEOs and CFOs
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (12:44):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (12:45):
and the pool was, was this big, was
small.
And now you said elite boardsare broadening their pool and
saying, okay, let's take a lookat these other folks.
And that's bringing in newpeople.
It's funny, as you werementioning, putting together a
complimentary skillset of yourboard.
It reminded me very much ofbeing chief of staff and putting
together.
A complimentary skill set onyour C-suite, because that's the
(13:05):
chief of Staff's job.
It seems like that's happeningor hopefully happening.
Um, the next, the next level upone I'll, I'll, I'll read off
one more quote from your bookhere.
It was a, it was a study youcited and it said, women of all
racial and ethnic backgroundsheld 30.4% of seats of board
(13:26):
seats across Fortune 500companies.
This is in 2022.
Uh.
But women of fromunderrepresented, racial and
ethnic groups occupied only 7.8%of board seats.
I knew that number was gonna below.
I didn't know it was gonna bethat low.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (13:44):
Yeah, it, it, it is shocking and some
people think that status so lowbecause of malicious behavior
and, you know, there are, thereare bad people doing bad things
and good people to do
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (13:57):
I.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (13:57):
things from time to time.
But what I've uncovered fromresearch, it really doesn't stem
from that.
Can it?
Yes.
But it really doesn't.
Um, it comes from similaritytheory.
You know, people, if the boardis filled with, uh, and, and
with some of the Fortune 500 ands and p 500 boards, you know,
(14:19):
just 10 years ago, of the boardmembers were white men.
I.
And, and so if the, if the whitemen are sitting at a board table
asking who do you know, um, for,so that we could fill our next
board position, they would lookto the left, look to the right,
and they would think about thepeople that would know, and even
(14:40):
when they were challengingthemselves to bring on a woman
director.
Well, the people that were mostclosely related to their network
may have been white women.
And so that's why white womenhad a larger percentage at that
particular point.
And, and then when you thinkabout women of color, you had to
(15:02):
inter intersectionality of beinga woman plus of color.
Uh, oftentimes, um, men of colorwould get the role.
If they were seeking someone ofcolor before a woman of color,
but then in 2020, I.
Um, things began to change andwomen of color were growing and
(15:25):
getting more board seats becauseit was meeting some of the
social demands at thatparticular point.
They were meeting some of thesocial demands and so things
started to change.
So that number since 2022 hasgone up the percentage of, uh,
women of color on corporateboards, but it's something that
will just continue to evolveand, uh, a good.
(15:49):
consultant would challengeboards to think outside the box.
And a good search professionalwould teach boards to fish from
different fishing holes becauseour fishing hole might be the
one we know where we have asocial capital and our networks.
But a good consultant or searchprofessional will say, there are
(16:12):
incredible fishing holes here,here, and here, and you'll.
You'll meet many different typesof extremely well qualified
people and
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (16:21):
Where do you come?
Yes, thank you.
Where do you come down on I'minterested in this because, um,
I have been part of teams andorganizations where.
Uh, where I am, like the only,or the first in a group.
And then I've also been part ofteams and different
organizations who, who youmentioned social demands, who
(16:44):
are trying to meet a quota, whoare trying to meet a diversity
stat
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (16:48):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (16:49):
um, and.
The last thing that I want is tobe part of a team just to check
a box.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (16:56):
yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (16:56):
smart, I'm talented, I have creative
ideas.
I can bring things together in aunique way, and I wanna be.
I wanna be assessed on thatmerit.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:08):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (17:08):
if that's not good enough for a
certain team or if thatexperience isn't re relevant
enough, um, that's one thing.
Or if I'm just not a good fitwith that particular culture,
that's fine.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:18):
yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (17:18):
But I'm wondering kind of where you
see, like on the ends of thespectrum.
Um, I mentioned the ends of thespectrum there.
There's a lot of middle ground,but kind of where do you see
that push and pull comingthrough?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (17:29):
It's a great question Emily, and I'll
answer two ways and hopefullyI'll, I'll remember everything
that I would like to share, uh,when I am coaching executives
who are aspiring board members.
Or board members who are seekingtheir second or third board when
I'm coaching them and they sharewith me that they were selected
(17:51):
to interview for a board rolebecause they fit a certain
demographic, asked them to havethe intestinal fortitude during
the interviewing process to asksomeone, why did you choose me?
Why were you interested inmeeting with me?
I said, you know, just by askingthat question, it fors them the
(18:13):
opportunity to give you theanswers to the test.
So you know, what was it aboutyour human capital or your
social capital or directorcapital or whatever that made
them want to see you beyondwhatever demographic uh, they
were also seeking.
And if you don't like theiranswer, I.
(18:33):
To have the intestinal fortitudeto say this isn't a good fit for
me.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (18:38):
Yeah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (18:39):
Um, um, not many people are willing
to do that, but I really dochallenge people to do that.
Now, going back to, um, thespectrum, I.
Uh, today we're dealing with a,you know, uh, really a anti DEI
sort of environment and you'refinding more and more board or,
(19:00):
uh, companies that are saying,uh, uh, at least publicly saying
that they are no longersupporting diversity.
And I find that those that arevocal in that area.
Are oftentimes those that werejust checking the box
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (19:20):
Mm.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (19:21):
and, and they, in 2020, from 2020 to
2023 didn't wanna be seen as thecompany that wasn't concerned.
About
emily-sander_1_04-16-202 (19:32):
Right.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16 (19:33):
social justice, uh, areas and the moral
imperative around diversity,equity, and inclusion.
And so because they were justchecking a box, they may have
been recruiting someone from,uh, for.
Token reasons and, and sothat's, you know, how I look at
(19:53):
that small group.
you have completely on the otherside of the spectrum, you have
those organizations that areshouting today from the
rooftops, that diversity.
Has been incredible for ourorganization and, and our, from
an employee standpoint, from aC-suite standpoint and from a
(20:14):
board standpoint.
And I could show you documentedproof and as to the business
imperative of having a diversityof thought on our board and in
our organization.
So you have the spectrum thatwe're just checking the box and
now they are publicly saying.
We're no longer supporting that.
(20:35):
And then you have on the otherend, those people that are
shouting from the rooftop thatwe stand behind this and we have
documented and empiricalevidence that this works.
Then you have the larger groupin the middle, and that larger
group I would call are thecompanies that are green
hushing.
Okay.
(20:55):
They've always believed in it.
They have documented proof.
They had it in their eight K,their 10 K, their websites,
their investor relationshipsection of, of their website.
Um, and they were shouting fromthe rooftop at one point, but
now they've.
Change the language.
They are no longer talking aboutit, but nothing has changed
(21:19):
within their organizationbecause they believe in it.
And so that term is called greenhushing.
So when you take the largepercentage of the companies that
are green hushing and not.
the media and then thepercentage that are shouting
from the rooftop.
You have a very large percentageof companies that still want to
recruit the best talent outthere from Amer perspective, but
(21:44):
fish from, but from different.
Fishing holes because of thecognitive diversity that they
bring to an organization.
And in my book I write aboutoptimal diversity.
And optimal diversity is thecombination of, uh, observable
slash demographic diversity plusdiversity of thought.
And the two together when you'reintentional about both is
(22:06):
optimal diversity and everyhuman being fits that category.
human being.
If you reflect on your culturalcapital, your director, capital,
human capital, all thesecapitals, well then you could
truly differentiate yourselfregardless of your ethnicity,
age, gender.
so, uh, it's those individualsthat were checking the box that
(22:31):
we as aspiring board membershave to be careful that we
aren't a token hire and have theintestinal fortitude to say.
This is not for me right now,
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_080 (22:44):
I wanna highlight something you
said, which is in the news, wetend to see the extremes of the
spectrum, whereas the majorityof companies are, are doing it
and they're looking fordiversity of thought.
They just might not be in thenews'cause it's not newsworthy
or it's not the, you know, theflashy thing
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-1 (23:03):
they're
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (23:03):
to talk about.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_ (23:04):
advertising it any longer, and that's
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (23:05):
Yeah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (23:06):
but they haven't changed their
values.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (23:08):
Yeah, and I think the, the term
diversity of thought caught myear because I worked for, so,
um, I always like to tell thisstory.
So I've worked for, uh, a bosstwice and I was the chief of
staff to the CEO and I workedfor him two times at two
different companies.
And both times he had a C-suitethat was.
(23:29):
That had representation from allgenders and from all races and
backgrounds, educationbackgrounds.
That was a big one.
Oh, you're not pedigreed enoughto be on our csuite.
He was like, I don't care.
I don't care if you pass firstgrade.
If you can get the job done,then you're gonna be on my team.
And, and he.
Lit.
He never talked about race orgender.
(23:49):
He just brought on the bestpeople.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (23:51):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (23:52):
was just understood that in the
recruiting process, which I wasin, the interview loops on both
of these.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-1 (23:56):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_08 (23:57):
I, I want the best people, bring me
the best talent to help thiscompany be successful.
And he, and he was, he is, I'mjust gonna say it, he won't mind
me saying this, an old, white,straight man.
And he was building theseamazing teams and he, he could
give two hoots about, you know,who was like, green, purple,
(24:18):
polka, dot, whatever.
He really didn't care.
And he had the best teams, andthose were two of the best teams
that I enjoyed working on.
It was, we challenged eachother, we encouraged each other.
It was just a good dynamic team.
And he, um, and he put thoseteams together and it was
understood.
It wasn't shouted from therooftops, it was just simply
understood that's what we weregonna do.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_0 (24:39):
Throughout the world, there are millions of
people that fit the descriptionyou just shared right there
where their heart is in theright place and they're really
focused around the businessimperative.
I want to do whatever I can tosurround myself with the most
incredible people to doincredible things in this world,
and that's what this is really.
(25:00):
All about, unfortunately, youknow, via or, uh, certain
organizations certain mediaoutlets and, uh, have confused,
the confused to make you thinkthat it can't, it can only, it
could be about diversity or itcould be about merit never
(25:20):
should the two marry.
And that
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025 (25:23):
False choice.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (25:24):
that is so wrong is it's, you know,
um.
Diversity and meritocracy docoexist, and the prerequisite
should always be about bringingin the very best in meritocracy,
always.
table stakes.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (25:43):
And if someone's listening and is
like, look, I'm, let's say earlystage, middle, mid career, like
I still got 10, 15 years left,um, to do it.
You know, should I, should Ireally be starting to think
about boards now?
Um, I didn't know I could dothat.
Now that I've heard Dr.
Keith speak about this, like,okay, now my ears are perked up.
Uh, what, what do I do withthat?
You know, how do I set that goalto reverse engineer into what
(26:05):
types of things should, shouldthat person be, uh, doing
reading, meeting people?
What types of things should theybe doing mid, mid stage in their
career?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-20 (26:14):
You know, mid stage, early stage,
late stage is never, never tooearly to get started.
In fact, the earlier the better.
And you mentioned in the book,you know, I, I.
I interviewed hundreds of womenthat, uh, from the government
and came from corporations andwent throughout, you know,
(26:37):
orchestrated their career to getto executive level and then
eventually to a board level andsome.
Were very intentional.
They knew as a teenager, that'ssomething we wanted do because
of family members or sponsors ormentors, people they looked up
to and others didn't figure itout until after they retired.
(26:59):
That's a more difficult way, butit varied and so.
And coming up with the fourindividuals, I took hundreds of
stories from individuals andhave successfully navigated that
path and then, uh, looked atwhat they did.
And the question I will alwaysask at the end of a qualitative,
(27:20):
uh, qualitative interview, ifyou can go back and tell your
younger self something, whatadvice would you give?
And lot of what they shared withme where they had similar themes
I put into those four FICcharacters.
And so the four protagonists area, you know, a 25-year-old,
(27:40):
brand new manager in a company,a 40-year-old, brand new senior
manager within the organization,a 55-year-old executive who says
she's going to retire in thenext three to five years and a
62-year-old.
See.
EO of a family business, secondgeneration family business,
who's going to turn the businessover to their much younger
(28:01):
brother.
four women said at those pointsthat they would like to serve on
a private or a public board.
So what should they be doing atthose stages of their careers?
And so someone that's earlystage to mid stage, they may be
on a singular track they justkeep getting promoted.
(28:22):
But it's all within this, thisvertical track.
And could they get on a boarddown the road if they made it
through to a executive rolethere?
Yeah, that describes me.
Um, I've been in, I was in salesmy whole 30 years in corporate
America, I was able to developthe skill sets to a point, uh,
(28:46):
where I was able to transitiononto boards, but as.
It's not the best way.
And those women that were veryintentional throughout their
career or they accidentally gotthere, uh, they, um, were able
to get positions outside of thistrack.
(29:06):
And so if that track was.
Just a legal track.
Some of them, uh, you know,after becoming general counsel
or right before that, maybemoved into a operations role or
moved into a sales, uh,leadership sort of role and
different things like that.
But to be able to go slightlyoutside your track and develop
(29:29):
new skill sets that are germaneto boards and, and when you're
able to do that, you become.
Way more attractive to a boardbecause boards may be seeking
today, as I mentioned before,Emily, functional experience,
but they don't want one trickponies that will only speak up
when we talk aboutcybersecurity.
(29:53):
want someone that can go deep incybersecurity, but a inch deep
in a mile wide, with a strongbusiness acumen in many other
areas.
And the term that we often hearused for that is.
Boards are looking for corporateathletes.
You know, people that canparticipate in many parts of the
(30:14):
conversation.
Chief of Staffs.
Are excellent at going an inchdeep in a mile y and asking
thought provoking questions,challenging their, um, direct
manager, whether that's the CEOor some other CXO.
Uh, they are excellent at that.
The boards are interested inpeople that can go a inch deep,
(30:36):
a mile wide, and are truecorporate athletes and someone
that mid-career can orchestratetheir career.
Where they can develop moreskill sets that are important to
boards are going to be moreattractive down the road.
And that's the sort of advice Igive, in the book so that people
(30:57):
can be more intentionalthroughout their career.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_080 (31:01):
I love the phrase corporate
athlete.
I'm now like, that's embedded inme.
So love that.
And I like the getting a broadrange of experience.
And for people listening, Keithwas making this kind of back and
forth slaloming motion with hishand, like a skier.
So go collect that broadexperience'cause it will help
you in your, in your, uh, boardjourney.
(31:21):
Um.
Also in your book throughout.
Throughout your book, you talkabout connections and
relationships and networking,but boards hire people they know
and they want to advocate forpeople they trust and know and
will make them look good whenthey refer someone in, but also
(31:42):
be capable and competent in thatseat.
So I think another thing thatpeople can be doing.
Is going out and meetingdifferent people and going out
and having the, the dinners orgoing to that networking event,
um, just to meet people.
And you never know, right?
Who is gonna open a door or, youknow, six months later, six
(32:02):
years later, who's gonna belike, Hey, I remember that
person.
Or, oh, I remember you, youreached out again.
Okay.
So can you just talk a littlebit about, uh, being intentional
about building thoserelationships?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (32:13):
From a social capital standpoint,
that was one of the things as asearch professional and also a
research around a researcheraround this that shocked me the
most, how people.
Found their boards and there arestudies that say, you know,
somewhere between 67 and 75% ofthe board seats that are filled
(32:34):
are filled by via your network,only a small percent percentage
come from search professionals.
Um, but the bulk comes from yournetworks.
And so one of the adv advice,one of the things that I share
with aspiring board members orpeople seeking their second,
third, or fourth board is totell anyone and everyone that
(32:58):
you are interested in the boardseat.
I mean, anyone, and a lot ofpeople think, you know when
you're seeking a board becausethe board is up here and then
you have your C-suite andexecutives and so on and so
forth, senior managers I'm onlygoing to tell the elite that I'm
interested in the board seat andthen no.
(33:20):
That's not how it works.
You'd be surprised how peoplefind their boards.
Um, you know, in, in the manyqualitative interviews, both
formally and informally thatI've conducted, they people will
share with me that they foundtheir board, their babysitter
share something with them, or,or, or let someone know that the
(33:42):
person they sit for is, is astrong board member, uh, the dog
walker.
dog walker.
a example that I often give is ajanitor within a organization
where that, that night janitorwould see this woman at least
two days a week, sitting at herdesk at seven, eight o'clock in
(34:05):
the evening, and the place isempty.
And finally one day he askedher, he, he said, I noticed
you're here late.
What do you do?
she shared her story in, in sucha way that enabled the, the
janitor to hear what she reallywas all about.
And so I'll, I'll pause for asecond to share one other bit.
(34:27):
I challenge people to taketheir.
Autopilot description ofthemselves that they give
they're at a cocktail party orsomeone asks you, uh, on sitting
next to you on a plane, what doyou do?
We go on a, this autopilot 23 to32nd sort of description, and we
often tell people what ourvocation is in those 23 to 30
(34:52):
seconds.
I challenge people to addanother seven to 11 more seconds
to that and go on autopilot,tell them that, and then say,
and I serve on two nonprofitboards and I'm looking for a
private board in this area so Ican pay things forward.
Just by doing that, like theexecutive did.
When a janitor asked what shedid, she shared that I also
(35:15):
serve on X number of privateboards and or, or I'm sorry, I'm
not.
Nonprofit boards, and I'mlooking for a private board in
this area.
Two weeks later, the janitor isat his sister's dinner party.
Sister talking to several peopleand saying, I'm having the
hardest time filling this boardseat.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (35:38):
You go.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (35:38):
And, and the janitor says, tell me
more about it.
Oh, you gotta meet this womanfrom my office that I clean and.
That was it.
She got on the board.
This happens all the time.
So by adding the additionalseven to 11 seconds to your,
your autopilot speech of whatyou do and who you are, it will
(36:00):
let anyone and everyone knowthat you're interested in the
board.
See, lastly, something else thatcame from a study that
completely blew my mind, Emily,regarding this, is that, um, we
grew up learning.
It's not what you know, it's whoyou know.
And that makes sense.
Okay.
That's, you know, how you end upgetting the job and different
(36:20):
things like that.
And what I've uncovered from oneof the studies was that it's not
what you know, it's not who youknow, it's who knows you.
Because
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_0 (36:30):
Ah.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-202 (36:30):
in this world, there's no longer
six degrees of separation.
When a search professional islooking for a board member, or
the nomination and governancecommittee from the board is
looking for a board member, um,we often ask, who do you know?
And people will start to sharenames.
(36:51):
And then we ve people that theysaid.
And when we vet, um, we're,we're getting information as to
who a, what you have to sayabout that individual in this
case.
Um, in this pre, pre-vetting, welearn so much about the
individuals.
(37:11):
So I share with aspiring boardmembers.
If you were sitting on a paneland you look out in the audience
and you see 30 people in theaudience that you know, there
are a thousand people in theaudience, by the time you're
done with that hour long panel,970 more people know you.
(37:37):
That you do not know.
And because they heard you onthe panel, they liked the points
you were making, they liked theway you think.
When they are asked, uh, who doyou know that could be great for
this board, they may think ofyou and you never set eyes on
it.
So it's not what you know.
(37:58):
not who you know, it's who knowsyou.
And do they have favorablethings to say about you?
Now if they don't have favorablethings to say about you, and,
uh, the nominations andgovernance committee, uh, begins
to do their research and theycan just look on LinkedIn and
see who they know that you knowsyou.
And if they don't have favorablethings, you'll never hear from,
(38:22):
you'll never even know that youwere up for that board position.
But if they do have favorablethings, search professionals and
non-gov committee members aregoing to reach out to you.
So I also share with people, letanyone and everyone know that
you're interested.
And if you've burnt some bridgesin the past, like a 12 step
program, I challenge you to goback and mend those
(38:44):
relationships to the best ofyour ability because you don't
know when people like me ineither one of my roles as a nom
nominations and governancecommittee member or a search
professional, I, I operate in.
You never know what I wanna callthem, and you want them to say
about you.
emily-sander_1_04-16-2025_ (39:03):
Yes, it's Who Knows You.
I love that piece of advice.
I wish I could talk to you forlonger, but, uh, we'll wind down
here.
But for people listening, thebook is The Boardroom Journey.
Practical Guidance for Women toSecure a Seat at the Table.
If you don't know what a boardis, you know a little bit more
now, but certainly read the bookand it takes you through that.
It also takes you through thedifferent types of boards.
(39:23):
So private public companies,different company sizes, have
very different board makeups,uh, subcommittees and all those
different things you might hearabout, um, directors, managing
directors, executives, all thesedifferent roles.
And then what I love about yourbook, you listeners know I like
practical and tactical actionsteps, and you have charts and
(39:44):
rubrics and plans.
And so you can literally narrowdown if you're like, I'm at the
point where.
I don't just wanna learn aboutboards, I wanna start moving in
that direction with somespecific action steps.
Keith's book has all of thisoutlined down to identifying
three target.
Boards and companies with theprofile that you want, and then
(40:06):
coming up with your messagingand outreach to those
individuals and marrying uplike, do I have a complimentary
skillset?
And going through thatassessment.
And then like you mentioned, theseven to 11 seconds you wanna
add to your introduction andtalk track.
And for those of you who arelike.
I'm not on a board.
I can't say I'm on a nonprofitboard.
He has a version.
There's a version in there thatsays, you know, I'm looking, I'm
(40:28):
looking to go into my nextchapter and for ways to give
back, and I'm looking for X, Y,and Z types of board.
But being very specific withthat description and ask.
So all of that good stuff is inthere.
Will certainly have a link tothat book in the show notes.
But Keith, thank you so much forjoining.
If people.
Want to reach out to you or knowmore about who you, uh, who you
(40:49):
help and what you do for them.
Where is the best place to gofor that?
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16-2 (40:52):
They can find me on my website that's
boardroom journey.com.
Boardroom journey.com.
And there you can see the typesof consulting that we do there
as well as individual coachingand accountability partnering
and different things like that.
And you can also find me underDr.
(41:14):
Keith D.
Dorsey on LinkedIn.
emily-sander_1_04-16 (41:18):
Beautiful.
We'll have all those in the shownotes as well.
Dr.
Keith, thank you so much.
squadcaster-7g7i_1_04-16- (41:22):
Thank you, Emily.
This has been great.
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