October 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Frank Noyola shares how he went from turning down the Chief of Staff role at Quest Global to shaping it into a job focused on strategy, team building, and supporting a rapidly evolving CMO/Chief Strategy Officer. He talks about building a small team to handle operations, collaborating with the only other Chief of Staff at the company, and making sure the position stays a “driver” role instead of just administrative support. Frank also offers advice for principals on defining and maximizing the impact of a Chief of Staff.
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Who Am I?
If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Time Stamps:
00:33 Marathon Journey
01:40 Chief of Staff Role Introduction
02:25 Initial Hesitations
03:38 Open and Transparent Conversations
05:01 Defining the Role
11:57 Building a Team
15:02 Collaboration with Other Chiefs of Staff
17:58 Navigating the Role
23:05 Interaction with the CEO
26:55 Advice and Reflections
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
emily-sander_1_05-30-202 (00:25):
Frank, awesome to have you on the show.
Thanks for being on LeveragingLeadership.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (00:29):
Hi.
Thank you Emily for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (00:32):
So last time we spoke you had just
completed your 13th marathon, soit has 14th happened or you're
still like just hanging
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (00:39):
not,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (00:40):
13 marathons.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (00:42):
not, yet.
Just 13.
Um, that was at the beginning ofthis month, so.
I tend to do two marathons ayear, one in the spring and one
in the fall.
Um, I know, I know.
I, um, I don't know.
I'm crazy that way, but I doenjoy it.
It is something that's break me,I don't know, joy and
(01:02):
satisfaction in a weird way.
So I have not signed up for my14th one though.
I still dunno which one I'mgoing to do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:09):
Wow.
Wow.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (01:10):
see.
emily-sander_1_05-30-20 (01:10):
there's some transferable skills like
resilience and perseverance andtraining and all that good
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (01:14):
You know, it has me in very odd
ways.
Uh, I think the biggest one ismostly just I learned a lot
about myself
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:23):
Hmm.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (01:24):
running for a really, really long time.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (01:27):
You get a lot of time.
with yourself too.
Yeah.
Well, um, I'm, I'm impressed byone marathon and the fact you've
done 13 and continue to wanna domore, it's just even more
impressive.
So, um, awesome job on, on allof that again.
Um, and so we'll get into yourchief of staff role here.
So you've been
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (01:43):
Sure.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:43):
your company for 11 plus
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (01:46):
I am all just shy of 11 years
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (01:50):
Okay.
And give us like the, like 32nd,like what does your company do
just for context and
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (01:54):
Sure we are Quest Global.
Uh, we're an engineering serviceprovider, uh, company.
We support, um, a differentverticals across the entire
world.
Um, mainly based out, most ofour people are based out of
India, but we have a large groupin the US as well as in Europe.
And I currently is the chief ofstaff for the marketing
department.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (02:15):
Very cool.
And you initially did not wantthe chief of staff job, so what?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (02:20):
is, that is correct.
That is a hundred percentcorrect.
So I've seen some of like yourpodcasts and I've been following
you for quite some time and I'venoticed some comments and also
some like.
Other people's observations ofthe chief of staff role, which I
can totally relate with, whichto me, it used to be, I guess my
understanding of the role wasjust like a glorified admin, um,
(02:42):
that worked really closely withsomeone who was really
impactful, powerful within theorganization, but like really
was just a nice role for anadministrative role.
Um, and yeah, so that's why whenit was.
Offered to me, not by my, myprincipal, but by someone else
in the department.
(03:03):
I immediately was like, notinterested, um, because I, I
think I was bringing more valueto the organization with the
role that I had at that time,which was leading the internal
communications team.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (03:14):
So you were like, they were like
chief of staff and you werelike, no, thank you.
I'm
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (03:17):
No, thank you.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (03:18):
No, thank you.
So what were the, what were someof the conversations like with,
with your now principal duringthat
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (03:27):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (03:27):
of change your mind?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (03:29):
Yeah.
So, um, it was one of the peoplethat reported to her that
reached out to me and told meabout this opening.
And I, that's the one that Isaid like, I don't think so.
Um, but I'll be happy to have aconversation if like.
If it's needed or whatever.
Um, and then eventually I endedup speaking with my principal,
(03:52):
so like my CMO and I was totallyopen and transparent.
One of our cultural pillarswithin Quest Global is being
open and transparent, and Icarry that value very deeply to
who I am.
Um, so with that, I was justlike, I will be fully open and
transparent in thisconversation.
My understanding of this role isbasically a glorified admin.
(04:13):
Um, she's had two other chief ofstaffs prior to me,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (04:19):
Yeah.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (04:19):
um, that I had worked or have seen
worked, um, in some way, shapeor form.
And they both worked verydifferently.
But what I had seen, it wasn'tsomething that I wanted to do.
Not to say that like their workwasn't meaningful or didn't
bring value.
It was just maybe not thestrengths that I was, not that I
(04:40):
had or the strengths that Ihave.
I just didn't see them.
I.
Come alive in what I would seethem do as, as a role.
So it just really wasn't much ofa, of a fit in my opinion.
Um, but we, I mean, I shared myconcerns and she enlightened me
on like, well, the role.
(05:02):
It is really whatever the personwants to make out of the role.
So it can be as tactical as onewants it, or it can be as
strategic as one would like itto be.
And that was really intriguingto me because I really enjoy
these.
Odd roles that really don't havea definition.
When I joined Quest Global, Ijoined as a business manager,
(05:23):
which at the time we had acouple business managers across
the globe, but we were, I thinkit was only like one or two here
in the us.
The role in it by itself waskind of like undefined.
It was, it had some parameters,some understanding, but you also
kind of just like made it up asyou were going, um, which I
really liked.
That was really intriguing.
I really liked that.
Make it something that it was.
(05:44):
Kind of like what I wanted tolook like.
So in the same way, this rolewhen it was presented to me, it
was very much this huge appealof like, well, you can make it
as you want it to make it.
Like what are you, what are thethings that you would like to
see?
What are the things that you doreally well at?
Um, and that was, um, a hugeplus for me.
And then the more things that wediscussed was, um, I wanna be
(06:07):
able to.
Utilize like my biggeststrengths.
So the big question that I askedher was, in the ideal world,
what would the chief of steplook like for you?
What do you need?
What are the things that you aremissing currently?
Um, or like, what would you likethis to evolve to?
That was awesome because that,um, just provide a little bit
more insight of like.
(06:28):
Where I could really like playand where I could elevate the
role.
And one of my biggest strengths,in my opinion is be more
strategic.
And if I have the time and Icould just like sit down and
think that's like when I do mybest work, um, with just like
strategizing on what we can do,how we can solve this problem,
what's gonna bring moreefficiency, et cetera, that kind
(06:49):
of stuff.
So that was really much what shewas looking for and what she
wanted this world to gettowards.
Um.
So that totally changed my mindfrom being a, no, I don't want
this.
No, thank you.
Pass to like, Hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (07:02):
Tell me
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (07:03):
Maybe it's a good thing.
emily-sander_1_05-30-202 (07:05):
That's awesome.
I, I love number one that wereable to have that conversation.
So Quest has the culture, butlike you're able to have that
open and transparentconversation.
then I like that you had thatconversation and you're like,
I'm just gonna go in there andlike have this straightforward
conversation.
Um, and of course I love thatyou were like from a no thank
you.
Please and thank you to like,ooh, actually no, I would like
(07:26):
some of that.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (07:27):
I do want this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (07:29):
a perfect fit, in fact.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (07:31):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (07:32):
Love
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (07:33):
it's been a great fit.
It's been an absolutely greatexperience so far.
Um, but again, we continue thisopen and transparent cultural
and as well as an open andtransparent communication
between, um, my boss and myselfon like ways that we could do
better.
Where am I falling short orlike, what are things that like
I need to make sure I'm payingclose attention to that I might
(07:54):
have just not missed.
You know, you just never knowwhat you don't know, and those
are the things that hurt you themost.
So it's always like bringingthat insight into like what are
things that I don't see and viceversa that maybe she does not
see, but I can bring values.
Like, well, here's anotherobservation that maybe we could
like improve or change orwhatever it is.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (08:14):
Yeah.
And you've mentioned a fewtimes, your principal is the
CMO, so Chief Marketing Officer,and she's also the Chief
Strategy Officer, so veryinfluential C-Suite roles, but
not the CEO.
So a lot of chief of staffsupport the CEO.
So I'm wondering kind of howdoes that shape role and what
you do day to day and,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (08:35):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (08:36):
how does that work?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (08:37):
well, great question.
Yes.
Um, at first, so lemme likebacktrack a little bit on this,
like, when I took on the role,she was the CMO, right?
And then shortly after she hadthat role, she was given this
other responsibility, like thisother department that she was
leading, uh, which was the headof global sales Operations.
(09:01):
So for a period of time I washelping her do both, like the
marketing side of things, alsothe sales operations side of
things.
Um, now things have.
Change evolved and whatever.
And um, now she is the chiefStrategy Officer.
That's her official title, butit also includes the marketing,
um, CMO
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (09:20):
more and more.
It sounds like she's good atwhat she does,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (09:22):
more.
Oh, she's amazing.
Yes, absolutely.
Um, so with that, it's beenreally fun because now my role
also, like I told you just a fewseconds ago, that my favorite
thing is.
Think big picture, what arethose challenges that we're
facing?
How can we solve them?
Um, so it allows me to play alot in that field, but really
within my day to day is, um,maybe we look at it like a three
(09:46):
different pieces or like hatsthat I play.
I have a small team, uh, of twopeople.
And so initially when I, they'reboth are in India and I'm in the
us so my beginning of my day isreally involved with making sure
that they're set up for success.
One of them handles like theadministrative work for the
department leaders within ourdepartment.
(10:07):
And then the other handles morelike the operational side of our
department, so like thefinancials, the budget,
invoicing, vendor registration,et cetera like that.
Um, so it makes sure that allthat is taken care of.
So that's like one piece of myhat.
Another hat that, that I put onis.
Really working with thedepartment, um, leaders, uh, to
(10:29):
make sure they have, you know,what they need to be successful.
So as a chief of staff, I viewmy role as my role is to ensure
that the functionality of thedepartment is operating to best
of its ability, um, and meetingall of our like organizational
goals.
So we're enabling the company tobe successful.
Um, so I need to make sure thatour leaders are also set up for
(10:51):
success, right?
Like, do they need somethingelse?
Is there something that I needto, like escalate?
Is there something that we needto brainstorm and collaborate
with another department?
Um, there's a lot going onthere.
And the third role is then comeslike the, the strategy side of
things.
So any strategic projects thatare working with, um, my chief
(11:12):
strategy officer on figuringout, okay, like now what is the
big picture here now, what isthe next challenge that we're
trying to overcome?
Or, um, we just completed 28years at Quest Global.
And we have line of sight tobecoming a centenary
organization.
With that comes itsdifficulties, its challenges and
a lot of strategies that need tobe put in place so that we can
(11:34):
ensure that this companyoutlives most of the people that
are working at it right now.
Um, so with that comes a lot oflike a thinking power that needs
to be just mobilized.
That's kinda how I view my dayto.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (11:46):
No, I love that breakdown.
You, you have a team, which nota lot of chief staff do, and you
built that team, if I'm
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (11:53):
I did.
I did.
Yes.
So one of the things, yeah.
So when, uh, this position wasoffered to me, I also am, I know
I don't know everything aboutmyself, but one of the things
that I do know are my strengthsand my weaknesses.
And I know that one of thethings that this role required
was managing the operationalside of the department, which is
(12:14):
not necessarily my forte.
I could do it, but it's not mystrength.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (12:17):
Yep.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (12:17):
So it might take a lot more energy
for me to do than it would forsomebody else.
So my ask at that, can I build ateam around to help me make sure
that like I am spending my timewhere it's most valuable, um,
and like make sure I have peoplethat are smarter in other areas
that I'm not.
We totally agree.
That would be like a good waymoving forward.
So I immediately started, um.
(12:39):
Looking for good talent.
And that's where I found, um,two very key people that are
much, much smarter than I am intheir areas and bring strengths
that I do not have, which Ilove.
Um,'cause then together we canbe a, a stronger team.
So one, like I said, bandage isall like the operational side of
things, which is again, notnecessarily my strength.
Um, I can help guide, I canhelp, um, strategize, direct and
(13:00):
all that.
But like when it comes to likeall the detailed numbers, um.
He's way better than I to itthan I am.
And then, um, this other person,she handles all like the
administrative work for all ofour department leaders.
Um, so she really makes surethat like the things are just
running smoothly.
Um, which is
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (13:20):
And is she like a shared resource
then, or are you kind ofdirecting.
Okay, so
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (13:24):
Yeah, she, well, she reports directly
to me and she supports then sixof us.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (13:30):
Okay.
Okay.
And did you, I mean, it soundslike you asked for this and
you're self-aware.
I know my strength andweaknesses.
You asked for this, it wasapproved and then was it just
like, Frank, set it up howeveryou want, whatever you think is
best, or was it like, Hey, talkto us about what you're thinking
and this, this, and this.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (13:46):
No, that was it.
So my c my, my boss, so, and Ijust.
Talk through.
We, we decided at first that wereally only needed one resource.
Um, and that would be like theoperational side.
And then, um, some changeshappened within our department.
We were like, maybe we do needsomething also to help
administrative support, butmaybe not just for her.
And we were thinking, how can wemaybe elevate this role a little
(14:10):
bit?
So we're really thinking, all ofus that report directly into
her.
Manage different sections of thedepartment.
How can we maybe enable them tonot be spending their time where
it's not best used?
So then it's going back toagain, like what are your
strengths?
Where do you need to be focusingmore so that you can bring most
value to your team, to thedepartment, to Quest Global.
(14:31):
And that's where this said,okay, we would bring in this
other resource that can help uswhere they already carry these
strengths.
So allow them to also flourishand we can also flourish in
other areas.
emily-sander_1_05-30-202 (14:40):
That's a true chief of staff.
'cause you did that for yourselfand then you're like, let me
expand this to my team, which isalso part of my job.
So I love that you did that.
Um, speaking of different teammembers you work with, how do
you work with the other chief ofstaff at the company?
I.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (14:53):
Yeah, so there's, there's only two
chief of staff in the entirecompany, me and the chief of
staff for the CEO.
That is it.
Um, so because we're only two,we are, we must stick together.
So we have, um.
Probably, I think it's, ourscheduled cadence is only
(15:13):
biweekly.
Um, which doesn't seem like alot, but we meet a lot more
frequently than that.
Um, sometimes several timesthroughout the week depending on
what we're going, what's goingon, what's happening within
organization or within our owndepartments.
Um, so we keep each otheraccountable of what's going on.
We also like brainstorm on howwe are handling with our own
(15:35):
principle.
Um, and like where.
You know, it's always sometimesdifficult to influence people
that are above you.
So it's talking about like,okay, I need support with this,
but I'm having a really hardtime getting their support.
How are you doing it?
How are you managing thatchallenge?
She's working with the CEO.
(15:56):
That's a whole differentchallenge in it by itself.
So we do a lot of likebrainstorm what I like to call.
One of the things that I.
To say about my role, I'm likethe brainstorming partner, um,
where someone in my departmentneeds to just brainstorm an
idea.
They can always call me aboutanything like that.
So she is my brainstormingpartner.
Uh, so just like figuring outhow can we make the best out of
(16:19):
what we have.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (16:21):
It is so funny you started that
with, um, like, course we'regonna stick together.
Of course we're gonna betogether.
And that's not the case.
I, I've, I've spoken with, like.
if not hundreds, at this pointof chiefs of staff who have
other chiefs of staff at theircompany.
And sometimes I'm like, oh,like, you know, how do you like,
do you know each other?
How do you interact?
And it's like, I don't talk tothem.
(16:43):
What?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (16:43):
That, that
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (16:43):
how can you
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2 (16:44):
shocks me.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (16:45):
And then,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (16:46):
But maybe, maybe it is different
because her and I were, I mean,she's also been with the company
for quite some time.
So we both have history withQuest Global.
Um, I've known her.
I don't even know how many yearsand she's had probably three or
four different, like big rolesin different functions, um, in
(17:07):
my time here.
So May, yeah, so maybe that iswhy it's made it maybe a little
bit easier because there wasalready an established
relationship and we just bothkind of ended up in this role
around the same time.
Um, so we're both kind of likefiguring this out as we go.
She probably has maybe sixmonths.
And her role than I do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-20 (17:28):
Because I mean, I would think if,
especially if you're the onlytwo chiefs of staff, but I've
spoken with people who have likedozens of chiefs of staff at the
organization, like, wouldn't youstick together?
Like that's your
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (17:37):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (17:37):
staff cohort.
Like it's lonely as chief ofstaff.
Like, let me like talk to thesepeople.
Um, but sometimes not.
But it
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (17:43):
like you have like a really good,
like regular cadence and you'rejust kind of casual and have
each other's back and all thattype of thing.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (17:49):
We try to, you mentioned something
that I think was also really a.
Key, and I kind of forgot aboutthis, so you just, men mentioned
it because it, the chief ofstaff role does appear to be a
very lonely role.
Um, and it comes across thatway.
Technic technically most peopleare like an individual
contributor.
Right.
Um, thankfully have a team, butyou are really kind of like on
(18:11):
your own little island.
Um, which was really concerningto me taking on the role.
And I think it's concerning to alot of people that have this
role.
It's like, how do you, how doyou manage that being on your
own?
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (18:22):
Hmm.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (18:23):
because we're so used to working with
other people, having teamscollaborating on multiple
projects that will require otherpeople.
And in this you really are a lotrunning solo in a lot of things.
Um, so I, I did not want that tobe my story.
Uh, so I've made sure to beinvolved in things that maybe I
(18:44):
didn't need to be involved.
Or maybe didn't, neither them orI saw that I could bring value
until I got involved.
Um, and I'm very much involvedin almost anything that's
happening within the department.
I know exactly what's happeningor what everybody is doing.
Um, but I also view that as partof my role too, that I should,
should know if any case myprincipal is not able to attend
(19:06):
something.
Everybody deserves vacation,right?
So she's out doing her ownthing, whatever it may be that
someone can step in and support.
And I view the chief of staff aslike the right hand person to
whomever that principal is tocome in and like be able to
continue business as usual.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (19:23):
Yeah.
Just outta curiosity, I mean,you were at the company for 11
years in various roles.
Was it, was it weird for peoplewhen you moved into the chief of
staff role or was it pretty likenatural, like, oh, Frank's like
taking on this and that makessense?
Like he's be really good atthat, or what was that like?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (19:40):
Oh, good question.
Um, do you know, that was kindlike a fear of mine, how the
team would perceive it, because.
Um, well, really any change thatI've made, I've always felt
like, always was concerned aboutpeople perceiving this new role
of mine and any change I had,because I'm not an engineer, I
didn't come from sales, I don'tanything that Quest Global does,
(20:04):
that's not my background.
So I was all like, everything Ido, I feel like I'm an imposter
in some way, shape, or form.
Um, I've learned to not.
Like believe that's true, but atsome point it's just natural
that that's like your feeling.
Um, thankfully my department wasreally accepting of me taking on
this role to many people.
It just seemed very natural.
It seemed like, oh yeah, thatmakes sense that Frank is taking
(20:26):
this over.
Um.
And then I did not know thatuntil,'cause most of my team is
in India.
I would say like 99% of thepeople are in India.
So it wasn't until my first tripthat I went to India as the
chief of staff, um, that I gotto see firsthand that, like, for
people, it just was like, eh,it, it made sense that you took
on this role.
Good for you.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (20:47):
Very
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (20:47):
Now, people outside of our
department, it was, uh, uh, Iguess it was more just like
explaining that like I.
Why I wanna take it.
And I think it's all because ofthis understanding of what is
the chief of staff role, whenmaybe they view me as bringing
value, doing my previous role asleading internal communications
and helping them in that way.
(21:09):
And then they have thisunderstanding of I'm now just
like this glorified admin.
So to them it was like, whywould he take a step back?
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (21:17):
Oh, interesting.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (21:18):
I had to like explain like, oh no,
this is like, this is not that.
Like this role is very, verydifferent.
It's much more elevated.
I can bring value in a whole newway to the company.
Um,'cause I view this role, andI think I've already probably
mentioned it a few times, isthis.
Role is very critical.
It's critical to the principal,it's critical to the department.
(21:39):
Critical to the organization.
I mean, there's only two of us.
Like it is, to me, it's a veryimportant role.
Um, so yeah, I just have tolike, enlighten people what the
role is about, um, to know thatlike
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (21:52):
It's
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (21:52):
are like.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (21:53):
I had a, a previous guest who took
on the chief of staff role andthen people reached out to her
like, are you retiring?
Like what are you doing?
It's like, chief of staff, areyou stepping back?
And I'm like, oh my goodness.
No, you're like taking on two tothree times more work than you
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (22:04):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (22:05):
But it's
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (22:06):
Um,
emily-sander_1_05-3 (22:07):
perception.
Yeah.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (22:08):
Yes.
it's, uh, it can be a lot.
I guess it all depends on theprincipal too, right?
Like on how they want it and howthey want to like do the role.
Um,'cause I have seen anotherorganizations chief of staff
where it is a very tactical.
What it appears to be a verytactical role.
(22:28):
Go do this.
Go.
I need 10 of these.
I need you to handle thesemeetings.
I need you to, it's very muchlike you can check everything
off the list every day.
Um, which that's fine if that,if that works for them, go for
it.
That's not something I wanted todo and I think that's the
understanding of a lot ofpeople.
I want it to be something thatis, brings a lot of different
(22:49):
value, which then to your point,it just allies a lot more work.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (22:55):
Yeah, totally.
Just outta curiosity, what isyour interaction like with the
CEO, if at all?
Is it mostly through the chiefof staff or like was the CEO,
like in your interview loop whenyou were applying for chief of
staff?
Like do you interact with themsometimes, but not often.
How does that work?
I.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (23:09):
Um, I met the, the CEO early in my
career, um, with Quest Global.
It was in my first trip toIndia.
Um, so this would've been in2014.
Um.
When I met him, and I'm glad Imet him because I.
(23:32):
Have a very differentperspective of what Quest Global
stood for and like, what is the,what are we trying to accomplish
here?
And like hear about his storyand why he started Quest Global
and how he started it.
And it was very, it's this, thestory of like, um, of just
perseverance and wanting to dosomething that ultimately
(23:52):
benefits society.
Um, so I, it's something I couldconnect with.
I share that because I'vemaintained a relationship with
them throughout my career atQuest Global.
Um, my previous role, I, Ihandled the, like our senior
team meeting.
Basically is, is what it wascalled back then and it was
(24:13):
everybody that had like aleadership position across
organization.
I helped manage that fromcontent to organizing.
Who's gonna speak in this andwhat is, what is the message
that we wanna share?
All that.
So he had a very pivotal role inthat.
'cause he would share like theleadership address for example.
So I would maintain comcommunication with him and once
I took on this role.
(24:33):
Um, surprisingly, I don't talkto him as often as I used to
because I, I'm not handling thismeeting anymore, so I don't have
like an a, an actual reason totalk to him.
Um, but every once in a while Iwould, when, when I see him,
either through travels or ifit's something that we're
working on together, we dointeract.
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2 (24:51):
Alright.
if um, if someone could take youback in a time machine before
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (24:55):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (24:56):
of staff role and sit you down and
be like, look, here's what'sreally gonna happen when you get
into the chief of staff role,what would you have liked to
have known at that time?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (25:04):
Huh, man.
Um, okay.
I think for this one, it's notmuch of what, what I wish I.
They would've sat me down andtold me, maybe it's because I
had a, I had a lot of opendialogue with my principal and
the chief of staff that had ofprior to me on like what it
(25:26):
looked like then what he did, etcetera in.
As well as several otherexecutives with Inquest Global
who've become like mentors ofmine and asking them like, Hey,
this position came up to me.
What do you see?
So I had a lot of conversations.
So I think I was very much awarewhat.
The role would look like andkind of what to expect, but what
(25:47):
I wish I would've been remindedof early on when I took the role
is that this role is somethingthat can bring a lot of value.
If you want it.
And I think often I came inbecause of my understanding of
the role being like a glorifiedadmin.
I think it played a big partearly on where I took a backseat
in a lot of things and I had torelearn or like remind myself
(26:11):
often that um, this is not abackseat position, this is a
driver position.
So I need to move up and like beconfident in myself and like
voice off my point of view.
Now I, that's not an issuetoday, but it definitely was
like in my first two months ofjust reminding myself that it's,
it's not what I think it, it is,it's something bigger and
(26:33):
better.
Um, and I just, I wish Iwould've reminded myself a lot
more early on.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (26:38):
I love that it's not a backseat
position, it's a driverposition.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (26:41):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (26:41):
get ready to drive and go fast.
I
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (26:43):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (26:44):
I love that.
As we round out here, whatadvice would you give to
principals who are eitherthinking of bringing on a chief
of staff or have one and wannakind of hear from a chief of
staff how to, how to utilizethat role?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (26:56):
Oh, I, I love this question.
So if they don't have a chief ofstaff, why not would be my first
question.
Um, I think you're losing,you're losing a huge opportunity
to have a brainstorming partner,um, if you want that to be.
I think, um, I think the firstthing it would be to ask what is
(27:18):
to you, a chief of staff?
And define that to, to yourself.
And then based on yourdefinition, do you need it or
not?
I would argue that you probablydo, um, because it could be like
your secret sauce is success.
Um,'cause if you have, if itworks well, you have a partner,
you have someone that you canhelp, you strategize things.
(27:41):
You have your right hand person,um, you have someone yeah.
That you can like.
Provide you, um, guidance aswell as to like things that you
don't see about yourself,perception about others, things
that people don't want to tellyou because they're afraid of
how you, how you would perceiveit.
So you, so you have someone thatcan give you insight into
things.
(28:01):
Um, yeah, there's a lot ofbenefits that are maybe just not
mentioned in it by itself in ajob description, but I think it
all comes to what is the chiefof staff for you?
And then based on thatdefinition, do you need it or
not?
I would argue that you do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (28:17):
I love that.
And I also think it, it tiesback to something you said
throughout this conversation,which is like, know yourself.
Know your strengths andweaknesses,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:24):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2 (28:24):
everyone does.
So like it's not a
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:26):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-3 (28:27):
weaknesses.
Human,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:28):
yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (28:28):
then find someone who has a
complimentary skillset becausethat can really, you know, two
plus two equals five type ofsituation.
And that's, that's what
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:37):
yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (28:37):
of staff can do.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:38):
yeah, Totally.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (28:40):
Love that.
Frank, anything else that youwould wanna get out to chiefs of
staff, to principals, to peoplewho are like, what is this role,
just in general?
Um, any, any other words ofwisdom?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (28:51):
Oh, wisdom.
Um.
That's funny.
Um, I don't consider myself verywise, but I guess in some ways I
have some knowledge here andthere.
I think, um, I think I'll goback to like the thing that I
wish I was reminded of.
'cause I think it's somethingthat I constantly remind myself
as well in anything, especiallywhen you have like those nervous
(29:11):
moments or like thosecomplicated meetings, the
situations that you maybe don'twant to be a part of, but you
know that you should because ofwhere you're at.
It's just reminding yourselfthat you are a driver.
Um.
As a chief of staff, staff andas a principal that would have a
chief of staff.
Let that person be a driver.
Let that person drive.
(29:32):
Um, it's okay to like take aback seat and see how the person
like comes and flourishes.
'cause obviously you have themfor a reason and they have
strengths that you maybe don'tpossess, um, as you were just
sharing just a second ago.
So if everybody is able to.
I think it's great when you havelike a really strong
(29:52):
partnership, right?
Like in, in all of our, likeour, um, sitcoms and, um,
superheroes, you have like thisduo, right?
So it's because it works.
It's not just because it, likeyou need somebody this and that
is because it actually works.
So, um, let your chief of staffbe your duo.
(30:17):
Um, and it'll be crazy what youcan do together.
emily-sander_1_05-30 (30:20):
Beautiful.
We'll leave it at that.
Frank.
Thank you so much.
Truly appreciate it.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (30:23):
Of course.
Thank you.
It's great to share.
Frank, awesome to have you on the show.
Thanks for being on LeveragingLeadership.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (00:29):
Hi.
Thank you Emily for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (00:32):
So last time we spoke you had just
completed your 13th marathon, soit has 14th happened or you're
still like just hanging
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (00:39):
not,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (00:40):
13 marathons.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (00:42):
not, yet.
Just 13.
Um, that was at the beginning ofthis month, so.
I tend to do two marathons ayear, one in the spring and one
in the fall.
Um, I know, I know.
I, um, I don't know.
I'm crazy that way, but I doenjoy it.
It is something that's break me,I don't know, joy and
(01:02):
satisfaction in a weird way.
So I have not signed up for my14th one though.
I still dunno which one I'mgoing to do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:09):
Wow.
Wow.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (01:10):
see.
emily-sander_1_05-30-20 (01:10):
there's some transferable skills like
resilience and perseverance andtraining and all that good
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (01:14):
You know, it has me in very odd
ways.
Uh, I think the biggest one ismostly just I learned a lot
about myself
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:23):
Hmm.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (01:24):
running for a really, really long time.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (01:27):
You get a lot of time.
with yourself too.
Yeah.
Well, um, I'm, I'm impressed byone marathon and the fact you've
done 13 and continue to wanna domore, it's just even more
impressive.
So, um, awesome job on, on allof that again.
Um, and so we'll get into yourchief of staff role here.
So you've been
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (01:43):
Sure.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (01:43):
your company for 11 plus
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (01:46):
I am all just shy of 11 years
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (01:50):
Okay.
And give us like the, like 32nd,like what does your company do
just for context and
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (01:54):
Sure we are Quest Global.
Uh, we're an engineering serviceprovider, uh, company.
We support, um, a differentverticals across the entire
world.
Um, mainly based out, most ofour people are based out of
India, but we have a large groupin the US as well as in Europe.
And I currently is the chief ofstaff for the marketing
department.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (02:15):
Very cool.
And you initially did not wantthe chief of staff job, so what?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (02:20):
is, that is correct.
That is a hundred percentcorrect.
So I've seen some of like yourpodcasts and I've been following
you for quite some time and I'venoticed some comments and also
some like.
Other people's observations ofthe chief of staff role, which I
can totally relate with, whichto me, it used to be, I guess my
understanding of the role wasjust like a glorified admin, um,
(02:42):
that worked really closely withsomeone who was really
impactful, powerful within theorganization, but like really
was just a nice role for anadministrative role.
Um, and yeah, so that's why whenit was.
Offered to me, not by my, myprincipal, but by someone else
in the department.
(03:03):
I immediately was like, notinterested, um, because I, I
think I was bringing more valueto the organization with the
role that I had at that time,which was leading the internal
communications team.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (03:14):
So you were like, they were like
chief of staff and you werelike, no, thank you.
I'm
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (03:17):
No, thank you.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (03:18):
No, thank you.
So what were the, what were someof the conversations like with,
with your now principal duringthat
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (03:27):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (03:27):
of change your mind?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (03:29):
Yeah.
So, um, it was one of the peoplethat reported to her that
reached out to me and told meabout this opening.
And I, that's the one that Isaid like, I don't think so.
Um, but I'll be happy to have aconversation if like.
If it's needed or whatever.
Um, and then eventually I endedup speaking with my principal,
(03:52):
so like my CMO and I was totallyopen and transparent.
One of our cultural pillarswithin Quest Global is being
open and transparent, and Icarry that value very deeply to
who I am.
Um, so with that, I was justlike, I will be fully open and
transparent in thisconversation.
My understanding of this role isbasically a glorified admin.
(04:13):
Um, she's had two other chief ofstaffs prior to me,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (04:19):
Yeah.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (04:19):
um, that I had worked or have seen
worked, um, in some way, shapeor form.
And they both worked verydifferently.
But what I had seen, it wasn'tsomething that I wanted to do.
Not to say that like their workwasn't meaningful or didn't
bring value.
It was just maybe not thestrengths that I was, not that I
(04:40):
had or the strengths that Ihave.
I just didn't see them.
I.
Come alive in what I would seethem do as, as a role.
So it just really wasn't much ofa, of a fit in my opinion.
Um, but we, I mean, I shared myconcerns and she enlightened me
on like, well, the role.
(05:02):
It is really whatever the personwants to make out of the role.
So it can be as tactical as onewants it, or it can be as
strategic as one would like itto be.
And that was really intriguingto me because I really enjoy
these.
Odd roles that really don't havea definition.
When I joined Quest Global, Ijoined as a business manager,
(05:23):
which at the time we had acouple business managers across
the globe, but we were, I thinkit was only like one or two here
in the us.
The role in it by itself waskind of like undefined.
It was, it had some parameters,some understanding, but you also
kind of just like made it up asyou were going, um, which I
really liked.
That was really intriguing.
I really liked that.
Make it something that it was.
(05:44):
Kind of like what I wanted tolook like.
So in the same way, this rolewhen it was presented to me, it
was very much this huge appealof like, well, you can make it
as you want it to make it.
Like what are you, what are thethings that you would like to
see?
What are the things that you doreally well at?
Um, and that was, um, a hugeplus for me.
And then the more things that wediscussed was, um, I wanna be
(06:07):
able to.
Utilize like my biggeststrengths.
So the big question that I askedher was, in the ideal world,
what would the chief of steplook like for you?
What do you need?
What are the things that you aremissing currently?
Um, or like, what would you likethis to evolve to?
That was awesome because that,um, just provide a little bit
more insight of like.
(06:28):
Where I could really like playand where I could elevate the
role.
And one of my biggest strengths,in my opinion is be more
strategic.
And if I have the time and Icould just like sit down and
think that's like when I do mybest work, um, with just like
strategizing on what we can do,how we can solve this problem,
what's gonna bring moreefficiency, et cetera, that kind
(06:49):
of stuff.
So that was really much what shewas looking for and what she
wanted this world to gettowards.
Um.
So that totally changed my mindfrom being a, no, I don't want
this.
No, thank you.
Pass to like, Hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (07:02):
Tell me
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (07:03):
Maybe it's a good thing.
emily-sander_1_05-30-202 (07:05):
That's awesome.
I, I love number one that wereable to have that conversation.
So Quest has the culture, butlike you're able to have that
open and transparentconversation.
then I like that you had thatconversation and you're like,
I'm just gonna go in there andlike have this straightforward
conversation.
Um, and of course I love thatyou were like from a no thank
you.
Please and thank you to like,ooh, actually no, I would like
(07:26):
some of that.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (07:27):
I do want this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (07:29):
a perfect fit, in fact.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (07:31):
Yes,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (07:32):
Love
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (07:33):
it's been a great fit.
It's been an absolutely greatexperience so far.
Um, but again, we continue thisopen and transparent cultural
and as well as an open andtransparent communication
between, um, my boss and myselfon like ways that we could do
better.
Where am I falling short orlike, what are things that like
I need to make sure I'm payingclose attention to that I might
(07:54):
have just not missed.
You know, you just never knowwhat you don't know, and those
are the things that hurt you themost.
So it's always like bringingthat insight into like what are
things that I don't see and viceversa that maybe she does not
see, but I can bring values.
Like, well, here's anotherobservation that maybe we could
like improve or change orwhatever it is.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (08:14):
Yeah.
And you've mentioned a fewtimes, your principal is the
CMO, so Chief Marketing Officer,and she's also the Chief
Strategy Officer, so veryinfluential C-Suite roles, but
not the CEO.
So a lot of chief of staffsupport the CEO.
So I'm wondering kind of howdoes that shape role and what
you do day to day and,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (08:35):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (08:36):
how does that work?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (08:37):
well, great question.
Yes.
Um, at first, so lemme likebacktrack a little bit on this,
like, when I took on the role,she was the CMO, right?
And then shortly after she hadthat role, she was given this
other responsibility, like thisother department that she was
leading, uh, which was the headof global sales Operations.
(09:01):
So for a period of time I washelping her do both, like the
marketing side of things, alsothe sales operations side of
things.
Um, now things have.
Change evolved and whatever.
And um, now she is the chiefStrategy Officer.
That's her official title, butit also includes the marketing,
um, CMO
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (09:20):
more and more.
It sounds like she's good atwhat she does,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (09:22):
more.
Oh, she's amazing.
Yes, absolutely.
Um, so with that, it's beenreally fun because now my role
also, like I told you just a fewseconds ago, that my favorite
thing is.
Think big picture, what arethose challenges that we're
facing?
How can we solve them?
Um, so it allows me to play alot in that field, but really
within my day to day is, um,maybe we look at it like a three
(09:46):
different pieces or like hatsthat I play.
I have a small team, uh, of twopeople.
And so initially when I, they'reboth are in India and I'm in the
us so my beginning of my day isreally involved with making sure
that they're set up for success.
One of them handles like theadministrative work for the
department leaders within ourdepartment.
(10:07):
And then the other handles morelike the operational side of our
department, so like thefinancials, the budget,
invoicing, vendor registration,et cetera like that.
Um, so it makes sure that allthat is taken care of.
So that's like one piece of myhat.
Another hat that, that I put onis.
Really working with thedepartment, um, leaders, uh, to
(10:29):
make sure they have, you know,what they need to be successful.
So as a chief of staff, I viewmy role as my role is to ensure
that the functionality of thedepartment is operating to best
of its ability, um, and meetingall of our like organizational
goals.
So we're enabling the company tobe successful.
Um, so I need to make sure thatour leaders are also set up for
(10:51):
success, right?
Like, do they need somethingelse?
Is there something that I needto, like escalate?
Is there something that we needto brainstorm and collaborate
with another department?
Um, there's a lot going onthere.
And the third role is then comeslike the, the strategy side of
things.
So any strategic projects thatare working with, um, my chief
(11:12):
strategy officer on figuringout, okay, like now what is the
big picture here now, what isthe next challenge that we're
trying to overcome?
Or, um, we just completed 28years at Quest Global.
And we have line of sight tobecoming a centenary
organization.
With that comes itsdifficulties, its challenges and
a lot of strategies that need tobe put in place so that we can
(11:34):
ensure that this companyoutlives most of the people that
are working at it right now.
Um, so with that comes a lot oflike a thinking power that needs
to be just mobilized.
That's kinda how I view my dayto.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (11:46):
No, I love that breakdown.
You, you have a team, which nota lot of chief staff do, and you
built that team, if I'm
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (11:53):
I did.
I did.
Yes.
So one of the things, yeah.
So when, uh, this position wasoffered to me, I also am, I know
I don't know everything aboutmyself, but one of the things
that I do know are my strengthsand my weaknesses.
And I know that one of thethings that this role required
was managing the operationalside of the department, which is
(12:14):
not necessarily my forte.
I could do it, but it's not mystrength.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (12:17):
Yep.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (12:17):
So it might take a lot more energy
for me to do than it would forsomebody else.
So my ask at that, can I build ateam around to help me make sure
that like I am spending my timewhere it's most valuable, um,
and like make sure I have peoplethat are smarter in other areas
that I'm not.
We totally agree.
That would be like a good waymoving forward.
So I immediately started, um.
(12:39):
Looking for good talent.
And that's where I found, um,two very key people that are
much, much smarter than I am intheir areas and bring strengths
that I do not have, which Ilove.
Um,'cause then together we canbe a, a stronger team.
So one, like I said, bandage isall like the operational side of
things, which is again, notnecessarily my strength.
Um, I can help guide, I canhelp, um, strategize, direct and
(13:00):
all that.
But like when it comes to likeall the detailed numbers, um.
He's way better than I to itthan I am.
And then, um, this other person,she handles all like the
administrative work for all ofour department leaders.
Um, so she really makes surethat like the things are just
running smoothly.
Um, which is
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (13:20):
And is she like a shared resource
then, or are you kind ofdirecting.
Okay, so
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (13:24):
Yeah, she, well, she reports directly
to me and she supports then sixof us.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (13:30):
Okay.
Okay.
And did you, I mean, it soundslike you asked for this and
you're self-aware.
I know my strength andweaknesses.
You asked for this, it wasapproved and then was it just
like, Frank, set it up howeveryou want, whatever you think is
best, or was it like, Hey, talkto us about what you're thinking
and this, this, and this.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (13:46):
No, that was it.
So my c my, my boss, so, and Ijust.
Talk through.
We, we decided at first that wereally only needed one resource.
Um, and that would be like theoperational side.
And then, um, some changeshappened within our department.
We were like, maybe we do needsomething also to help
administrative support, butmaybe not just for her.
And we were thinking, how can wemaybe elevate this role a little
(14:10):
bit?
So we're really thinking, all ofus that report directly into
her.
Manage different sections of thedepartment.
How can we maybe enable them tonot be spending their time where
it's not best used?
So then it's going back toagain, like what are your
strengths?
Where do you need to be focusingmore so that you can bring most
value to your team, to thedepartment, to Quest Global.
(14:31):
And that's where this said,okay, we would bring in this
other resource that can help uswhere they already carry these
strengths.
So allow them to also flourishand we can also flourish in
other areas.
emily-sander_1_05-30-202 (14:40):
That's a true chief of staff.
'cause you did that for yourselfand then you're like, let me
expand this to my team, which isalso part of my job.
So I love that you did that.
Um, speaking of different teammembers you work with, how do
you work with the other chief ofstaff at the company?
I.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (14:53):
Yeah, so there's, there's only two
chief of staff in the entirecompany, me and the chief of
staff for the CEO.
That is it.
Um, so because we're only two,we are, we must stick together.
So we have, um.
Probably, I think it's, ourscheduled cadence is only
(15:13):
biweekly.
Um, which doesn't seem like alot, but we meet a lot more
frequently than that.
Um, sometimes several timesthroughout the week depending on
what we're going, what's goingon, what's happening within
organization or within our owndepartments.
Um, so we keep each otheraccountable of what's going on.
We also like brainstorm on howwe are handling with our own
(15:35):
principle.
Um, and like where.
You know, it's always sometimesdifficult to influence people
that are above you.
So it's talking about like,okay, I need support with this,
but I'm having a really hardtime getting their support.
How are you doing it?
How are you managing thatchallenge?
She's working with the CEO.
(15:56):
That's a whole differentchallenge in it by itself.
So we do a lot of likebrainstorm what I like to call.
One of the things that I.
To say about my role, I'm likethe brainstorming partner, um,
where someone in my departmentneeds to just brainstorm an
idea.
They can always call me aboutanything like that.
So she is my brainstormingpartner.
Uh, so just like figuring outhow can we make the best out of
(16:19):
what we have.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (16:21):
It is so funny you started that
with, um, like, course we'regonna stick together.
Of course we're gonna betogether.
And that's not the case.
I, I've, I've spoken with, like.
if not hundreds, at this pointof chiefs of staff who have
other chiefs of staff at theircompany.
And sometimes I'm like, oh,like, you know, how do you like,
do you know each other?
How do you interact?
And it's like, I don't talk tothem.
(16:43):
What?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (16:43):
That, that
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (16:43):
how can you
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2 (16:44):
shocks me.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (16:45):
And then,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (16:46):
But maybe, maybe it is different
because her and I were, I mean,she's also been with the company
for quite some time.
So we both have history withQuest Global.
Um, I've known her.
I don't even know how many yearsand she's had probably three or
four different, like big rolesin different functions, um, in
(17:07):
my time here.
So May, yeah, so maybe that iswhy it's made it maybe a little
bit easier because there wasalready an established
relationship and we just bothkind of ended up in this role
around the same time.
Um, so we're both kind of likefiguring this out as we go.
She probably has maybe sixmonths.
And her role than I do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-20 (17:28):
Because I mean, I would think if,
especially if you're the onlytwo chiefs of staff, but I've
spoken with people who have likedozens of chiefs of staff at the
organization, like, wouldn't youstick together?
Like that's your
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (17:37):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (17:37):
staff cohort.
Like it's lonely as chief ofstaff.
Like, let me like talk to thesepeople.
Um, but sometimes not.
But it
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (17:43):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (17:43):
like you have like a really good,
like regular cadence and you'rejust kind of casual and have
each other's back and all thattype of thing.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (17:49):
We try to, you mentioned something
that I think was also really a.
Key, and I kind of forgot aboutthis, so you just, men mentioned
it because it, the chief ofstaff role does appear to be a
very lonely role.
Um, and it comes across thatway.
Technic technically most peopleare like an individual
contributor.
Right.
Um, thankfully have a team, butyou are really kind of like on
(18:11):
your own little island.
Um, which was really concerningto me taking on the role.
And I think it's concerning to alot of people that have this
role.
It's like, how do you, how doyou manage that being on your
own?
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (18:22):
Hmm.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (18:23):
because we're so used to working with
other people, having teamscollaborating on multiple
projects that will require otherpeople.
And in this you really are a lotrunning solo in a lot of things.
Um, so I, I did not want that tobe my story.
Uh, so I've made sure to beinvolved in things that maybe I
(18:44):
didn't need to be involved.
Or maybe didn't, neither them orI saw that I could bring value
until I got involved.
Um, and I'm very much involvedin almost anything that's
happening within the department.
I know exactly what's happeningor what everybody is doing.
Um, but I also view that as partof my role too, that I should,
should know if any case myprincipal is not able to attend
(19:06):
something.
Everybody deserves vacation,right?
So she's out doing her ownthing, whatever it may be that
someone can step in and support.
And I view the chief of staff aslike the right hand person to
whomever that principal is tocome in and like be able to
continue business as usual.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (19:23):
Yeah.
Just outta curiosity, I mean,you were at the company for 11
years in various roles.
Was it, was it weird for peoplewhen you moved into the chief of
staff role or was it pretty likenatural, like, oh, Frank's like
taking on this and that makessense?
Like he's be really good atthat, or what was that like?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (19:40):
Oh, good question.
Um, do you know, that was kindlike a fear of mine, how the
team would perceive it, because.
Um, well, really any change thatI've made, I've always felt
like, always was concerned aboutpeople perceiving this new role
of mine and any change I had,because I'm not an engineer, I
didn't come from sales, I don'tanything that Quest Global does,
(20:04):
that's not my background.
So I was all like, everything Ido, I feel like I'm an imposter
in some way, shape, or form.
Um, I've learned to not.
Like believe that's true, but atsome point it's just natural
that that's like your feeling.
Um, thankfully my department wasreally accepting of me taking on
this role to many people.
It just seemed very natural.
It seemed like, oh yeah, thatmakes sense that Frank is taking
(20:26):
this over.
Um.
And then I did not know thatuntil,'cause most of my team is
in India.
I would say like 99% of thepeople are in India.
So it wasn't until my first tripthat I went to India as the
chief of staff, um, that I gotto see firsthand that, like, for
people, it just was like, eh,it, it made sense that you took
on this role.
Good for you.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (20:47):
Very
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (20:47):
Now, people outside of our
department, it was, uh, uh, Iguess it was more just like
explaining that like I.
Why I wanna take it.
And I think it's all because ofthis understanding of what is
the chief of staff role, whenmaybe they view me as bringing
value, doing my previous role asleading internal communications
and helping them in that way.
(21:09):
And then they have thisunderstanding of I'm now just
like this glorified admin.
So to them it was like, whywould he take a step back?
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (21:17):
Oh, interesting.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_1 (21:18):
I had to like explain like, oh no,
this is like, this is not that.
Like this role is very, verydifferent.
It's much more elevated.
I can bring value in a whole newway to the company.
Um,'cause I view this role, andI think I've already probably
mentioned it a few times, isthis.
Role is very critical.
It's critical to the principal,it's critical to the department.
(21:39):
Critical to the organization.
I mean, there's only two of us.
Like it is, to me, it's a veryimportant role.
Um, so yeah, I just have tolike, enlighten people what the
role is about, um, to know thatlike
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (21:52):
It's
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (21:52):
are like.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (21:53):
I had a, a previous guest who took
on the chief of staff role andthen people reached out to her
like, are you retiring?
Like what are you doing?
It's like, chief of staff, areyou stepping back?
And I'm like, oh my goodness.
No, you're like taking on two tothree times more work than you
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (22:04):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (22:05):
But it's
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (22:06):
Um,
emily-sander_1_05-3 (22:07):
perception.
Yeah.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (22:08):
Yes.
it's, uh, it can be a lot.
I guess it all depends on theprincipal too, right?
Like on how they want it and howthey want to like do the role.
Um,'cause I have seen anotherorganizations chief of staff
where it is a very tactical.
What it appears to be a verytactical role.
(22:28):
Go do this.
Go.
I need 10 of these.
I need you to handle thesemeetings.
I need you to, it's very muchlike you can check everything
off the list every day.
Um, which that's fine if that,if that works for them, go for
it.
That's not something I wanted todo and I think that's the
understanding of a lot ofpeople.
I want it to be something thatis, brings a lot of different
(22:49):
value, which then to your point,it just allies a lot more work.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025 (22:55):
Yeah, totally.
Just outta curiosity, what isyour interaction like with the
CEO, if at all?
Is it mostly through the chiefof staff or like was the CEO,
like in your interview loop whenyou were applying for chief of
staff?
Like do you interact with themsometimes, but not often.
How does that work?
I.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (23:09):
Um, I met the, the CEO early in my
career, um, with Quest Global.
It was in my first trip toIndia.
Um, so this would've been in2014.
Um.
When I met him, and I'm glad Imet him because I.
(23:32):
Have a very differentperspective of what Quest Global
stood for and like, what is the,what are we trying to accomplish
here?
And like hear about his storyand why he started Quest Global
and how he started it.
And it was very, it's this, thestory of like, um, of just
perseverance and wanting to dosomething that ultimately
(23:52):
benefits society.
Um, so I, it's something I couldconnect with.
I share that because I'vemaintained a relationship with
them throughout my career atQuest Global.
Um, my previous role, I, Ihandled the, like our senior
team meeting.
Basically is, is what it wascalled back then and it was
(24:13):
everybody that had like aleadership position across
organization.
I helped manage that fromcontent to organizing.
Who's gonna speak in this andwhat is, what is the message
that we wanna share?
All that.
So he had a very pivotal role inthat.
'cause he would share like theleadership address for example.
So I would maintain comcommunication with him and once
I took on this role.
(24:33):
Um, surprisingly, I don't talkto him as often as I used to
because I, I'm not handling thismeeting anymore, so I don't have
like an a, an actual reason totalk to him.
Um, but every once in a while Iwould, when, when I see him,
either through travels or ifit's something that we're
working on together, we dointeract.
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2 (24:51):
Alright.
if um, if someone could take youback in a time machine before
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (24:55):
Yeah.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (24:56):
of staff role and sit you down and
be like, look, here's what'sreally gonna happen when you get
into the chief of staff role,what would you have liked to
have known at that time?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (25:04):
Huh, man.
Um, okay.
I think for this one, it's notmuch of what, what I wish I.
They would've sat me down andtold me, maybe it's because I
had a, I had a lot of opendialogue with my principal and
the chief of staff that had ofprior to me on like what it
(25:26):
looked like then what he did, etcetera in.
As well as several otherexecutives with Inquest Global
who've become like mentors ofmine and asking them like, Hey,
this position came up to me.
What do you see?
So I had a lot of conversations.
So I think I was very much awarewhat.
The role would look like andkind of what to expect, but what
(25:47):
I wish I would've been remindedof early on when I took the role
is that this role is somethingthat can bring a lot of value.
If you want it.
And I think often I came inbecause of my understanding of
the role being like a glorifiedadmin.
I think it played a big partearly on where I took a backseat
in a lot of things and I had torelearn or like remind myself
(26:11):
often that um, this is not abackseat position, this is a
driver position.
So I need to move up and like beconfident in myself and like
voice off my point of view.
Now I, that's not an issuetoday, but it definitely was
like in my first two months ofjust reminding myself that it's,
it's not what I think it, it is,it's something bigger and
(26:33):
better.
Um, and I just, I wish Iwould've reminded myself a lot
more early on.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (26:38):
I love that it's not a backseat
position, it's a driverposition.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30- (26:41):
Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_1 (26:41):
get ready to drive and go fast.
I
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-202 (26:43):
Yes.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (26:44):
I love that.
As we round out here, whatadvice would you give to
principals who are eitherthinking of bringing on a chief
of staff or have one and wannakind of hear from a chief of
staff how to, how to utilizethat role?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (26:56):
Oh, I, I love this question.
So if they don't have a chief ofstaff, why not would be my first
question.
Um, I think you're losing,you're losing a huge opportunity
to have a brainstorming partner,um, if you want that to be.
I think, um, I think the firstthing it would be to ask what is
(27:18):
to you, a chief of staff?
And define that to, to yourself.
And then based on yourdefinition, do you need it or
not?
I would argue that you probablydo, um, because it could be like
your secret sauce is success.
Um,'cause if you have, if itworks well, you have a partner,
you have someone that you canhelp, you strategize things.
(27:41):
You have your right hand person,um, you have someone yeah.
That you can like.
Provide you, um, guidance aswell as to like things that you
don't see about yourself,perception about others, things
that people don't want to tellyou because they're afraid of
how you, how you would perceiveit.
So you, so you have someone thatcan give you insight into
things.
(28:01):
Um, yeah, there's a lot ofbenefits that are maybe just not
mentioned in it by itself in ajob description, but I think it
all comes to what is the chiefof staff for you?
And then based on thatdefinition, do you need it or
not?
I would argue that you do.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_110 (28:17):
I love that.
And I also think it, it tiesback to something you said
throughout this conversation,which is like, know yourself.
Know your strengths andweaknesses,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:24):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2 (28:24):
everyone does.
So like it's not a
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:26):
Yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-3 (28:27):
weaknesses.
Human,
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:28):
yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (28:28):
then find someone who has a
complimentary skillset becausethat can really, you know, two
plus two equals five type ofsituation.
And that's, that's what
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:37):
yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_11 (28:37):
of staff can do.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-20 (28:38):
yeah, Totally.
emily-sander_1_05-30-2025_ (28:40):
Love that.
Frank, anything else that youwould wanna get out to chiefs of
staff, to principals, to peoplewho are like, what is this role,
just in general?
Um, any, any other words ofwisdom?
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025 (28:51):
Oh, wisdom.
Um.
That's funny.
Um, I don't consider myself verywise, but I guess in some ways I
have some knowledge here andthere.
I think, um, I think I'll goback to like the thing that I
wish I was reminded of.
'cause I think it's somethingthat I constantly remind myself
as well in anything, especiallywhen you have like those nervous
(29:11):
moments or like thosecomplicated meetings, the
situations that you maybe don'twant to be a part of, but you
know that you should because ofwhere you're at.
It's just reminding yourselfthat you are a driver.
Um.
As a chief of staff, staff andas a principal that would have a
chief of staff.
Let that person be a driver.
Let that person drive.
(29:32):
Um, it's okay to like take aback seat and see how the person
like comes and flourishes.
'cause obviously you have themfor a reason and they have
strengths that you maybe don'tpossess, um, as you were just
sharing just a second ago.
So if everybody is able to.
I think it's great when you havelike a really strong
(29:52):
partnership, right?
Like in, in all of our, likeour, um, sitcoms and, um,
superheroes, you have like thisduo, right?
So it's because it works.
It's not just because it, likeyou need somebody this and that
is because it actually works.
So, um, let your chief of staffbe your duo.
(30:17):
Um, and it'll be crazy what youcan do together.
emily-sander_1_05-30 (30:20):
Beautiful.
We'll leave it at that.
Frank.
Thank you so much.
Truly appreciate it.
frank--he-him-_1_05-30-2025_ (30:23):
Of course.
Thank you.
It's great to share.
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