September 28, 2024 • 47 mins
"Don't be funny, be human - you don't have to force it. Have a sense of humour. Have the ability to look at situations and see the humour that you do when you're outside of work. How often do you go home from work and you're sitting at the dinner table saying to your partner, or your family, you just wouldn't even believe what happened today..." Beth Sherman
Beth Sherman and I place a lens on the transformative power of humour in our work-lives. Beth shares insights from her career as a comedy writer and stand-up comedian, illustrating how humour can be a powerful tool for leaders to build trust, reduce tension and foster team dynamics. We touch on practical applications such as using humour to make interactions more human, make connections in diverse environments and improve workplace resilience. She emphasises the importance of self-awareness and authenticity in using humour effectively. Beth believes humour is a love-language, it can be used like a seasoning and that there is a lot of truth in humour.
Beth Sherman is a speaker, comedian, and seven-time Emmy Award-winning Hollywood comedy writer who's written for the biggest shows in American television, including Late Show with David Letterman, The Tonight Show With Jay Leno, Ellen, and the Academy Awards. As a speaker, she helps individuals and organizations harness the power of humor to create meaningful connection and genuine engagement with clients, colleagues and audiences.
Connect with Beth
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/beth-sherman/
Website: https://www.bethsherman.com/
Resources Mentioned:
Professional Speakers Association
Victor Borge
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I'm kind of excitedactually to welcome Beth Sherman to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Beth, you're so welcome.
It's my pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me, Susan.
And before we kick off, I'd just liketo say a special thanks to Helen Joy for introducing us and it's quite apt actually that this is Well, we'll talk about humor and we'll get into humor, but Helen and I bonded over laughter We shared a lunch together where we laughed so much that the bond between us was just there and we've worked together ever since.
(01:52):
so I think it's quite appropriatethat she would introduce me to you.
and I love Helen for that samereason, I met her a few times before I discovered that she had a sense of humor, because we met in sort of a professional setting, or in the setting of a professional association, and she was I was not, but she was on her best behavior, and then when the, the wall came down, what a great discovery.
(02:17):
Absolutely.
why does the wall go up?
What makes us want a wall in settings?
I mean, I think it was best behavior.
Maybe, maybe wall isn'tthe best description of it.
I have the benefit of being someonewho is professionally funny, not that necessarily that I have the skill, but because the things that I talk about, this was the Professional Speakers Association.
(02:42):
And as a speaker, I talk about humorand how to use humor for connection.
So I, I kind of have licenseto go in and be myself.
Not that everyone else doesn't,but it's definitely not something I have to second guess.
so when I want to make a goodimpression, that means, I need to make people laugh or or simply smile.
(03:03):
That's me making a good impression.
And, I guess a little bit of credibility.
Because you can tell peopleyou're funny, but it's a lot easier to just make them smile.
and more effective.
And I, I think, Helen and and otherpeople who, work in management, things like that, the instinct probably rightly so is let me present myself as an adult.
(03:26):
let me present myself, and, andthen let me read the room first.
So, it's not a huge wall, butit's, a professional pause.
It's a diagnosing the situation first.
Yeah,
I, I'm not capable of it.
but no, it's interesting because Ithink, bringing some humor into our workplaces could make a huge difference.
(03:55):
And there is something about, youknow, Perhaps we don't expect our CEOs or our politicians, I remember talking to somebody else about this, to stand up and make jokes.
We want them to be serious.
We want them to take everything seriously.
But then it diminishes everybody else'sability sometimes to have a laugh
(04:19):
Yeah.
And look, I don't want my politiciansstanding up and telling jokes.
As someone who is professionallyfunny, I don't want that.
But, when it comes to leadership, I thinkit's also defining what we mean by humor.
In there are situations where,yeah, if I'm on a comedy club stage, I'm telling jokes.
(04:41):
But in leadership and inprofessional situations, it's a matter of just getting a smile.
And there are lots and lots of ways.
you can do that.
So it's not necessarily telling jokes.
it's certainly not peopletrying to do bad standup.
the world doesn't need more comedians.
(05:03):
It certainly doesn't need more badcomedians because it can certainly undermine your credibility, but one of the most important things in comedy is self awareness.
and again, it's self awareness,not being self deprecating.
There's a difference.
Being self deprecating is, isspecifically is putting yourself down.
Self awareness is simply acknowledgingwhat your audience might be thinking or noticing about you or about the situation, the broader situation.
(05:30):
So in leadership or inbusiness, having self awareness.
is necessary, whether or not you'reusing it for humor, whether or not you're using it to get a laugh or a smile.
Self awareness as a leader is youhave to know how you're coming across.
You have to know how whatyou're saying is received.
(05:51):
And so to, to be clear, jokes frompeople, that's where you can also get into trouble with banter and things like that.
But self awareness is simply.
if you're a leader and you have to, oryou're middle management and you have to pass on a directive that you and everybody who works with you knows is bonkers, or probably not the right way, I think you can still lead and acknowledge that.
(06:28):
You don't have to necessarilysabotage or undermine.
the authority of the person aboveyou, but, you know, there's a slight inflection of, well, we have the new instructions, here's what they are.
I mean, but that simple bit, you'rereally, just acknowledging what everybody is thinking, but that creates connection.
(06:51):
And people don't have to be rollingon the floor, but it creates a smile, even if it's just kind of a, a quiet smile inside their own heads, they feel seen and heard and acknowledged.
Cause there's nothing worsethan someone talking at you.
You just feel like,
Humor is a way to say things betweenthe lines and sometimes in leadership, that's what people have to do, even if it's, this probably isn't a great idea, but I've been asked to do it, or This customer is going to be difficult.
(07:21):
I mean, these are the things that you'resaying between the lines of, this isn't going to be fun, but it's necessary.
But sometimes that's all ittakes to change the tone of a situation or an interaction.
completely.
And even as you were speaking, I couldflash meetings through my head where people acknowledge something like that and without saying something, but you knew that, Oh, okay.
(07:49):
So I'm not going crazy here.
Other people get thatthis is a crazy idea.
Yes, exactly.
But that can go when you are the one whohas to go and implement that crazy idea.
That's important information to have.
so that you're not just quietly simmeringwhile you're doing this thing thinking,
(08:10):
not to mention doubting yourself,because I would probably be thinking should I should have said something and beating myself up for that.
And then also just getting progressivelyangrier at everybody who's above me.
But at least you would know thatthis person who's asked me to do it.
Maybe they're not in favor of it,but they probably have my back.
So maybe they're going to helpme problem solve if I need it.
They won't be a brick wall to talk to.
(08:33):
that they've put some thought into it.
It's yeah, it sounds like a small thing,but it makes a really big difference.
Big difference in an organization.
And again, that comes back to connection.
If, if someone is telling you that,even between the lines, there's a lot more that they're telling you.
(08:55):
It's
Yeah.
I guess.
Yeah.
It speaks to as well, Beth, ison your headline in LinkedIn, you have, don't be funny, be human.
And I think that's what you'regetting at here as well.
Don't go out of your way to try andget people to laugh or make jokes or whatever, but actually just embrace the craziness that is life.
(09:24):
authenticity, isn't it?
I mean, like, we were just talking aboutHelen, who, again, was in the first times I met her, a bit more professional.
I mean, that's the right word for it.
but when people are their authenticself, I mean, these are people who, when they are in amongst friends and family, have a bit of a sense of humor.
(09:51):
I mean, we all do.
even if you don't consideryourself a funny person, we've all made someone laugh or smile.
we've probably found our partner.
I mean, that's why we fall forour partners often is because we feel connected to them.
And usually, humor isone of the big reasons.
Sometimes alcohol is one ofthe other ones, but that's how,
They kind of help eachother sometimes, too.
(10:14):
yeah, Hey, there's a reasonpickup lines tend to be funny.
but it's, it's authenticity, and,and people really respond to it.
there is room for being, forprofessionalism, but professionalism is being good at your job.
That's a given.
don't be funny, be human, is,you don't have to force it.
(10:35):
have the sense of humor, havethe ability to look at situations and see the humor in the that you do when you're outside of work.
how often do you go home from workand you're sitting at the dinner table or saying to your partner or your family, you just wouldn't even believe what happened today.
but hopefully in that moment orthe next day, hopefully that's also a moment that you've had with the people that you work with.
(11:04):
And sometimes you don't need to spellit out, sometimes it's just a look.
but yeah, don't be funny.
Don't force it.
Don't try to be someone that you're not.
Because people can see right through thatalso, if you're trying to be someone that you're not, whether it's being a comedian or Being a manager or someone that's, I'm a role follower, it's like when teenagers try on different personalities, we all sort of look and go, huh, yeah.
(11:40):
But be, just be who you are, try tobring as much as you can of that, when it comes to humor, try to bring that part of your personality into your work life.
the lower the wall, lower the guardjust a little bit, and try to get other people to lower their guard, because that's another thing that humor is great for, it's a way for people to just lower their guard a little bit.
(12:07):
Yeah, and I think teams that laughtogether, it's just a different dynamic.
because there's a bond thatlaughter brings, we talked about that at the beginning.
Also, there's a trust, I think, thathumor and that laughter enables trust.
(12:29):
Yeah, and there's a lot of truth inhumor, but if you look at teams that have the best sense of humor, often it's a very dark sense of humor, but if you look at first responders and people in the military, go to an emergency
room, or talk to some firefighters,or, there, there's, I have a friend who I, I met through LinkedIn, lovely guy, but he, you know, British commando, and one of his last jobs was, he was the head of the British forces, in Ukraine.
(12:58):
So this is someone who, who tosay he knows how to take things seriously is an understatement.
but we had coffee and he talkedabout how he very intentionally used humor as a tool in his leadership.
well, it's a tool for resiliencebecause you come back from a mission and
It's a way to release tension.
(13:20):
if everyone's at an 11, you have tobring it down before you can sort of really honestly talk about things.
he also said that he founded a reallyuseful tool in building connection he'd served all over the world, but he'd be in situations with village elders and, and things like that.
And.
this really tough guywith a really tough job
(13:44):
he had self awareness and he understoodthat using humor to show a little bit of vulnerability to not know the local custom or to make a little bit of a show.
when he's sitting down to tea withsomeone in a tent situation, but understood that sort of pretending or maybe exaggerating slightly that he didn't know the local custom, but being willing to be that fish out of water.
(14:07):
And again, Mr.
Army man commando, so not avulnerable guy, but he understood that that created connection.
If you can get a smile from someone, it'shard to hate someone who makes you laugh.
Or, or just smile.
I mean, it's worked for some people,it's possible, but, but, but it's, it's less, yeah, it's harder.
(14:30):
And especially now when things areso divided, especially in my country,
if you can make someone smile, or ifyou can make a room laugh, or just have that little moment, for that moment, everyone's on the same page.
And that is a rarer and rarer thing,but it can be what builds the trust,
(14:55):
builds the trust in the long term,but even just in the short term.
Someone will continue listeningto you, someone that they may have been sort of told or programmed that you're the bad guy.
it's a way of building trust andget them to listen to you for another few minutes and, and, and hear your side because you've sort of had that moment of authenticity and humanity and vulnerability.
(15:18):
Absolutely, I thinkthat's it, Beth, isn't it?
You see the human in the person again.
The person who you've heard is themonster or whatever, and suddenly you're laughing with them, and it lowers that judgment And I think there's something about I'm Laughter as well, Eve.
Our smiling brings us into thepresent moment like nothing else.
(15:44):
we're off in our headswandering and suddenly, you sort of bring us that moment.
There is a moment of presencewhere you're not worried about something and you feel joyful.
It connects you with your childhood.
Yeah.
Well, it's an involuntary response.
I mean, we can all fake it,but that genuine laughter.
it's nice, and not to mention thefact that it sends out all those happy chemicals, all the things, clearly I'm not a scientist, but it sends out all the happy chemicals, and they're, literally the same chemicals that you get when you eat chocolate or have sex, it, it's less likely you're going to do those in the first few seconds of meeting someone, we've all tried, but,
(16:23):
Chocolate eating only.
Laughter.
Chocolate eating, yes, yes.
but laughter, you can getthose chemicals going.
I, I had a thought, andthen it disappeared.
Yep, nope, the the hormones took it away.
See?
(16:44):
while you're waiting for it to comeback, if it does or not, what came up for me as you were talking about a commando, I used to work for an organization that cleared landmines and unexploded ordnance around the world.
So nothing funny about that.
No laughing matter.
It was really life and death.
I was working in finance, so I was prettysafe, but, we were based in Manchester and one time the vice president of Lau came to our offices and I was a director and we went out for dinner with him, the vice president and his first secretary
(17:20):
And there was a few directorsand actually over dinner.
What he wanted to talk about was Mr.
Bean.
It was one of the most surrealexperiences of my life, because it's just not what you're expecting.
But he's a human, after all.
(17:41):
And no matter who he was orhis standing in government or whatever, he liked to laugh.
And he was obsessed with Mr.
Bean.
Well, I would imagine after along day at work, yeah, if anyone needed a break, it was him.
The thing that I forgot earlier, but it's,it's, to that point, it's a quote from Victor Borga, who was a classical pianist, a comedian, and a Holocaust survivor, which talk about triple threat, that's quite a resume, but he said, laughter is the shortest distance between two people.
(18:16):
And it's true, and it's abeautiful way to say it.
And the vice president of Laos, or anybodyelse, yeah, needs to and wants to laugh.
We all have that in common.
(18:36):
Wow, that's such a powerfulstatement, actually, or quote.
That's really beautiful.
And coming from someone who had seenthe absolute worst of, what humanity can do, but one of his missions, because he was a classical pianist, but did funny songs and, wanted to share all of that, but did it with just, as a brilliant comedian, in front of the piano, but, chose to move past what he had seen with, wanting to bring people together.
(19:10):
And this was how he was able to do it.
Wow.
It's almost like stopped me.
So it's created a distance and now,because I, yeah, I'm quite taken by that.
I've listened to a couple of podcaststhat you've been on and you say that you have one skill, being funny.
(19:34):
But funny in your voiceand someone else's voice.
So maybe you'd tell us a littlebit about how that works, Beth.
How can you be funny insomeone else's voice?
I'll also say that, I mean, in terms ofskills, I'm also pretty good at cooking.
Good, good.
I'm sure you have more skills.
I have no doubt.
(19:55):
and, yeah, I was going to sayrunning, but I'm very slow.
so, so yeah, so being funny in myvoice and someone else's voice.
I grew up, I didn't reallylisten to music growing up.
I grew up in a family that had a greatsense of humor and we were talking before this, before we started recording about my dad and, and his sense of humor.
And my mom had a greatsense of humor as well.
(20:16):
and I come from a culture, I'mAmerican, East coast Jewish.
it's a, a culture that has probablymuch like Irish culture, but that has storytelling and a sense of humor kind of wired into it.
If you sit around the youbetter be able to keep up.
And you also betterhave a very loud voice.
my English wife always describedany meal with my family as shouty.
(20:42):
Why you speak loud?
We're just talking.
We're talking.
Why is she upset?
so, so, Growing up, I, didn'treally feel connected to music, but I discovered standup comedy.
I grew up in the eighties when the standupcomedy boom was happening in the U.
S.
and kind of fell in love with that.
My mom liked going to flea markets.
(21:02):
I hated it and was bored andwas a sulky kid and teenager go.
And I realized though, that therewere comedy albums, record albums, kids record albums, or big pieces of plastic that people used to put on a turntable and play.
No kids listen to this show.
Don't worry.
that's, that's probably true.
Yeah.
yeah.
And if they do, they probablyknow what records are if they're listening to a, a management podcast.
(21:25):
Good on you if you are.
Um,
so I listened, so I would listen to comedyalbums and these were comedy albums that were recorded live and the classics.
And if you're watching the video,you can sort of see a few of my favorites in the shot behind me.
So That's kind of how my brain was wired.
I didn't have the gutsto go on stage myself.
(21:47):
I didn't really thinkof it in those terms.
But once I discovered that beinga comedy writer, writing sitcoms, writing television as a comedy writer, that that was a job.
It's the only thing I wanted to do.
And I moved to California and I,I worked my way up and eventually that's the job I got to do.
So as a comedy writer working in a roomwith other people, comedy writers, and our entire job, on sitcoms, everyone figures out the story together, and then one person goes and writes the draft, and then the draft comes back in, and you spend your day trying to make it.
(22:21):
funnier and more engaging inthe voices of those characters.
And that's where I was, I was anassistant in that world, and my job was to take the notes, and a thousand jokes, and then you'd make sure that you have the one that the head writer said yes to, and then the few backups.
This was before AI couldsort of do all that for you.
(22:44):
And so that skill is being funnyin the voice of the character.
And in that case, they arecharacters that are fictional.
The first writing jobs I got wereon what is considered in the U.
S.
comedy variety, I was at, RosieO'Donnell had a show and then I was at David Letterman and the Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Ellen.
(23:06):
And those are shows thatare five days a week.
So in the UK, the equivalent wouldbe, I guess, Graham Norton, but doing it five days a week where about half the show is prepared comedy.
Graham comes out and does maybe three orfour monologue jokes and then sits down.
But these, these are bigpercentage of the show is, is comedy before the guests come out.
yeah.
And on those shows, depending onthe show, six, eight, ten of us, and our job is to, they're hosted by a comedian, is to, create a monologue in the voice of the comedian.
(23:37):
Sometimes it's more stand up y, sometimesit's more, current events, jokes about current events, topical comedy.
Ends.
the skill set is for that, notjust being funny, but being able to be funny in the voice of whoever is on camera for that show.
it's a slight difference, but it'san important difference because I have watched a lot of writers over the years come in and out of those rooms and they were maybe hilarious standups, but they just couldn't quite tailor it to someone else's voice.
(24:12):
Cause the same observation mightbe funny, but it has to be in the voice of the person who's standing in front of the camera.
During that time, I did finally getthe, because I was working with a lot of comedians, and was getting paid to be funny, so I finally got the courage to go up and do stand up,
so in addition to 27, 28 years asa comedy writer, I spent 15 of them also doing stand up, and nights and weekends I would go to good clubs and, and around the world.
(24:41):
locally, and then during hiatusweeks on the show, I would go and travel across the U.
S.
and do a week, and here and there, andand do, do the road, is what it's called, and including military bases, and I even went to Iraq and did two weeks in Iraq.
so basically my TV writing career iswhere I channeled my ability to be funny in, into someone else's voice.
(25:03):
And then, as a stand up, one ofthe adjustments I had to make was how to be funny in my own voice.
I could write the joke as if itwas for someone else, but then I had the opposite problem.
How do I tailor that back tobe what the heck do I think?
what do I think is funnyabout that situation?
So, That's where that weirdlittle skill set came from.
in my TV career lately, for the pastfew years, a lot of what I've been doing is, is working on award shows.
(25:28):
So that's, so the, the Screen ActorsGuild Awards a few times, the Oscars a couple of times, and there you have to write in the voice of whoever is the presenter for that particular category.
So we basically write everything rightup until, and the nominees are, So, it's okay, it's Best Cinematography, and Tom Hanks is delivering it, or someone's giving, Helen Mirren a Lifetime Achievement Award.
(25:54):
I think it was Kate Winslet wasgiving Helen Mirren, so, we get brought in to write something that is in their voice, sometimes you have an interview, initial call with the person, and they, because they have a sense of what they would like to say.
sometimes we just write the draft,and then it goes to the talent department, who then gets it to that person's people, and then it sort of filters back to us with changes.
(26:17):
But the goal is not just for something tobe funny or interesting, but to be funny or interesting in that person's voice.
And on those shows, there's,30 or 40 different, presenters or different people speaking.
So then you really get good at tryingto get the ear for how would this person say that, and then it's a collaboration.
(26:39):
I also have a speech writing business, andhave done for, for seven or eight years where I help the people with personal and professional speeches, helping them make it funnier, more engaging.
I read a ton of wedding speeches,some are, some's ghostwriting, and some we spend an hour on a Zoom call, and I help you take your existing material and, and tweak it.
(27:02):
What happened next?
And using, and the rest, And now,because I'm speaking, I've met a lot of speakers, and so now I also help a lot of professional speakers make their keynotes funnier and more engaging, because they're very good at what they do.
They're not first time speakerslike a lot of the CEOs and, and the people in the other business.
These are people who speak all thetime, but they will get booked more, they will have more fun themselves, their audiences will enjoy it more, the material will land better.
(27:33):
Because people will be paying closerattention and will be enjoying the experience if they can find ways to be authentically funny or to just sort of sprinkle in that humor.
And I talk about humor as a seasoning.
think of it as salt.
You don't always need a lot,but you always need some.
Every dish needs some salt, darkchocolate, you need just a couple of grains of sea salt, and it's delicious, but sometimes it's movie theater popcorn and you want a whole bunch of salt.
(28:01):
But again, it's just seasoning,it's not a bucket full of salt with some popcorn, it's still a bucket of popcorn with some salt.
I've now been talking for 40 minutes andcan't remember the original question.
I think it had something to do withhow your skill is being funny in your voice and someone else's voice.
(28:21):
So that's kind of the longanswer of how, I acquired that skill set and how I use it now.
Thank you.
It wasn't a test.
Okay.
That's okay.
But like, it's quite fascinating causeI mean, the whole story is really fascinating, Beth, how you worked
(28:41):
Thank God.
Yeah, no, it was, itwas really fascinating.
And I think, On TV, we seecomedy rooms where people sit around and write, sitcoms.
I mean, I think there's evensitcoms about those kind of sitcoms, or that writing room.
I think it's really different to thinkthat Kate Winslet, for example, doesn't just come out there and say what's on her mind, or whoever or Ellen, I would have, I think I just imagined that Ellen always just said what Ellen wanted to say.
(29:14):
And I guess.
Yeah.
Hmm.
I was going to say just to that, becausea lot of people are surprised that shows like that have writers, and, the thing is, these are people who have spent 20 or 30 years building a voice, building a career, and that's why they are hosting these shows.
They're very, very good at what they do,but as a comedian, or as a professional speaker, you speak at a different place.
(29:42):
as a comedian, you're on the road, right?
It's a different audience every night.
As a speaker, you're atdifferent companies every day.
So you can use the same material and tweakit, and every so often you update it.
But if the show is five days a week.
It's an hour long show, five days a week.
And all these shows that I workedon, it's an hour, five days a week.
(30:03):
And I don't care how good you are,but five new hours of material a week, you're going to need some help.
So that's where people like me come in.
it's not a crutch.
It's a necessity.
Also, the hosts of those showsare very involved because they are comedians themselves, it all gets filtered through them.
And sometimes they have an idea andthen it's our job to sort of work on it.
(30:26):
But it's a matter of volume.
It's not a matter of lazinessor, or being spoiled.
And in the case of awardshows, these are busy people.
so it's Not that Kate Winslet orTom Hanks or Helen Mirren couldn't sit down and, and write something.
if they're presenting something,you know, best sound editing.
(30:48):
First of all, there is a talking point.
So, so it's kind of our job to,here's the talking point and then think of something funny or a way to make it sort of interesting.
but these are busy people.
So it's giving them a starting point.
it's not because they don'thave the ability to do it.
Part of the reason is, look, thisperson's already going to, to have a, probably a full day of hair and makeup.
(31:12):
They're going to be meeting with stylists.
They're going to bedoing all those things.
They're going to take time out oftheir schedule to come to Los Angeles.
Or wherever it is, the awardshow is have a whole day.
And these are people who could beshooting anywhere in the world or filming something anywhere in the world.
So they've already by agreeing tocome have made a massive commitment of time and energy and expense.
So it's giving them, so they'renot starting with a blank page.
(31:34):
Sometimes it ends up being all of them.
Sometimes it ends up being all us,but it's an offer from the producer.
let us make this experience asseamless for you as possible.
No,
and I never thought theywere lazy or spoiled.
(31:55):
I suppose you don't
no, no, I know you're not thinking that.
you never know what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
I think that's the other thing is,what we're presented with, what we listen to, even as you listen to this podcast episode, no one knows that.
I did some research first.
Okay.
I mentioned it right at thebeginning, but you know, I
(32:16):
so needy, Susan!
totally, but it's funny how I thinkwe, we take for granted so much.
That's just in front of us and oftendon't think about all the work that goes on in the background to produce.
something that hits the mark.
And I guess I can't stop thinking aboutChris Rock and Will Smith and clearly that wasn't scripted but that line that Chris Rock came up with where at the end when he turned to everybody and said that was the greatest night in the history of television I just thought that was so
(32:54):
amazing a response and I always wonderedI mean I'm not asking you whether you know or not but He was a comedian so I expected that he came up with that on the spot, but I suppose it's also possible that someone said that to him who hadn't been smacked in the face.
Well, yes, that was definitely, Iwasn't on the show that year, I was on the show the year before, so, but, that was definitely not planned.
(33:19):
Things that are planned are funny.
Yes, no, that was not funny.
it was not funny, that was actually kindof horrific, because if you lack that kind of impulse control in front of an audience of a billion people on a live broadcast, couldn't even wait till the commercial.
You're it makes me wonder what you'relike at home, when people aren't watching.
(33:39):
but Chris Rock, I mean, comedianshave 40 years, because I think he started as a teenager, so 40 years of craft, 30, 40 years of craft in that.
I don't know, but when you write onthe show, the host has writers, and at commercial breaks, There'll be a little conference, a little quick huddle, looking ahead, looking back, looking ahead.
(34:03):
Is there anything we sort of needto acknowledge or talk about?
So I have no idea whetheror not it was him or someone else, but it is a team sport.
So I don't even think it matters.
he's the one that went out and sold it.
So I think it's very likely itwas him or the core of it was him.
But, he's the one thatwent out and sold it.
(34:23):
humor in those situations, I mean,even without the violence, but in a comedy room, it really is a team sport because someone will say.
Okay, bad pitch, but, becausesometimes you're close to it, but you need that other person's brain.
And if you think of it like basketballor, if only I was good at sports, but basketball or volleyball, it kind of all usually feels more like volleyball.
(34:44):
someone puts the ball in the air.
They can't maybe get it over thenet, but they can put it in the air.
And then there's someone elseif you have a good team, someone else goes, Oh yeah, I got it.
And they're the one thatputs it over the net.
So it.
genuinely is a team sport, becauseespecially humor and jokes, when you're trying to come up with original material, you can't do it in a vacuum.
(35:05):
You need some sort of audience, andsometimes that's a trusted writing partner, or just a trusted friend, or a, colleague in professional situations, or often it's the audience.
Because I can look at something as acomedian, and with all my experience, and I've seen this with every single host, Ellen, Jay, everyone.
(35:28):
It can look great on paper, but youstill have to go, is this anything?
Is anything?
I don't know.
But that's why you do it in front ofan audience, because there are always the things that are hilarious to you when you're sitting there writing it, or when you jot it down, and things that you think, I, I don't know, but I just need to fill up the page.
(35:49):
or I just need something.
And inevitably, the thing that you thinkis great, gets a little bit of reaction.
And the thing that you sort of sayoffhand, or the thing that you just kind of put in as filler, on the way to the next thing, gets a huge laugh, and you can't explain it, but you need the audience to let you know.
(36:11):
And I think that goes for so many things.
I mean, people are alwaystalking about that with kids.
posting on LinkedIn, the day you justgo on the keyboard and put it out there is the day it's going to go viral.
And the day you sit forhours, really thinking about something, no one even reads it.
And there is something aboutengagement, isn't there?
Always saying it aloud and notjust keeping it to yourself.
(36:33):
That's,
Yeah, and maybe it goes to authenticity,maybe the things when we don't overthink things, when we just kind of say it, maybe that's, maybe that's what people intuit, maybe people just smell it, feel it on you, and they know you have it.
Overthought it.
I, I think, I mean, good Lord,lots of those LinkedIn posts are definitely overthought.
(36:55):
so maybe when people don'tdo it, it really stands out.
that's quite true actually.
That could be it.
and also I think when you'renot overthinking it, you're saying what's on your mind.
You're just letting it out.
And sometimes that's just the best way.
And it's not even the authenticity almost.
It's the, the unpolished that, well, Isuppose maybe that's authentic as well.
(37:17):
The rawness, you just feel theemotion perhaps in somebody's post.
It's vulnerability and vulnerabilitydoesn't have to be your sob story.
Vulnerability can just be, closedmy thumb in the refrigerator.
Here's what it looks like now.
and that was one of my best posts.
I really did.
I closed my thumb and it blackened thenail, you know, when you, you get that.
(37:38):
And I.
I literally, I, I reached in toget some cream and was too lazy to close the door, take two steps.
And so I was kind of hanging onto itand thought, I mean, I'm five feet tall.
Why I thought my wingspanwas adequate, I don't know.
But the door ended up kind of closingand it just, the angle that it hit was just enough to, to, to get my thumb.
(38:01):
But I posted that and I said,what dumb injuries do you have?
And let me tell you, I'venever had a post like that.
everyone wanted to share, I askedother people their, their dumbest injuries, and I've never had a post that's done so well, and the injuries were fantastic that people gave.
I can imagine.
I can absolutely imagine.
(38:21):
And hilarious!
And hilarious, yeah.
Yeah, because we all love tosee, who's been framed when people fall over backwards into the water or whatever it is.
I mean, it just brings outagain, that childlike, it touches something inside us, doesn't it?
To, to laugh at other peopleor with them, but kind of like, thank God that wasn't me.
(38:43):
And at ourselves!
Yeah, exactly, to laugh atthe and to laugh at ourselves.
Because again, that's selfawareness, coming back to where we started with that self awareness.
And that's just, you have to.
I mean, if you've ever seen someone sortof trip on the sidewalk, do that little stumble, not fall down, but do that little stumble, you can tell how they handle it.
If they sort of smile and you cantell they're thinking, well, I'm an idiot, or some people just get really annoyed and then just keep going.
(39:09):
You go, what's the matter with you?
But it gives you immediatelyinsight into their personality.
It does, it does.
And humour as a love language, Beth.
You've talked about that being a TED Talk.
I heard you say that somewhere.
(39:29):
And I think it's such a novelidea, what TED Talks are all about.
Well, one, one hopes.
that's the one.
I've rubbed my scent all over that one.
that's, if I do a Ted, when I do aTed Talk, that is what I'd like to do.
Because I genuinely believethat humor is a love language.
It's a way to say things thatwe couldn't or wouldn't say.
(39:53):
directly.
I tell a story about my dadwho, it was his only language.
he was of that generation and hewent from a boy's school to the Navy.
So those three things meant thathe just couldn't, open up about how he was feeling, but humor genuinely was his love language.
his greatest pleasure in life was makingpeople laugh or smile, me especially.
(40:17):
And so if that's not love,I don't know what is.
I mean, that's nurturing.
I've been telling the story lately.
It's, I mean, talk about sayingthings that you wouldn't say directly.
It always stood out at me because Iwas waiting for a coffee one morning, I was still on my way to a gig and, I'm in the train station waiting for a coffee and the guy in front of me in line was just an absolute jerk to the kid behind the counter.
(40:43):
And all I did when I got to thefront was just say, he seems nice.
And it, and it, it, it, it made her smile,you know, it's not a hilarious joke.
It was just sort ofacknowledging what was going on.
And when I thought about what I wassaying with that, he seems nice.
(41:07):
I was saying, I see you,want you to feel good.
Those are things I definitely would nothave said directly to the kid behind the counter at the Starbucks in Paddington station, because that would be creepy.
I see you.
Oh, I want you to feel good.
I mean, you can't say that to people.
(41:29):
they'll drag you off in handcuffs, butyou can still let that person know that what that guy was doing wasn't okay.
I saw that.
You were not the only one that saw that.
You know, kind of, I have your back.
I'm a total stranger to you.
(41:50):
But, but those are importantthings, I think, to say to each other and to let people know.
Absolutely.
And changes.
that person's dynamic and how they mightbe for the rest of the day, because it's broken that tension, perhaps, where they were like feeling like crap after somebody wasn't really nice to them.
(42:14):
And then suddenly, yeah, likeyou say, you acknowledge they're human and they're there and people shouldn't be like that to them.
exactly.
It changes the wholetone of the experience.
And if that's.
Not love.
I don't know what is.
I mean, that is humor as alove language in small ways.
(42:34):
And, in a business situation,I mean, that's leadership.
It's showing that you care about people.
It doesn't have to be big love.
but it's showing that you,you are looking after people.
your people and that you have a stakein how they feel and how they succeed.
And, they just feel looked after.
It doesn't have to betouchy feely kumbaya love.
(42:56):
It can just be nurturing ina professional situation.
And I,
And, and, oh
sorry, it's back to what wetalked about at the beginning.
Don't be funny, be human, becauseI think it makes you approachable.
There's a level playing field aboutbeing humorous and in fact, maybe the vulnerability is a good word, but there is something that even if you're not being vulnerable at the time that you have a bit of laugh with people, there's something that people just see that you're normal.
(43:28):
In inverted commas, becausethat's a big spectrum.
yeah, it's commonality, right?
yeah, it's, it's commonality,which is, is just, a key principle, I think, in, in anything.
It's
yeah, like you said, it, it levelsthe playing field and it's such an efficient way to do that.
(43:52):
How long did it take forme to say, he seems nice.
I don't even know if that's a second.
Is that two seconds, but the abilityto transmit, transmit, to transmit so much information in such a short time.
I mean, that's a good skill set to have.
(44:13):
I mean, separate fromleadership, talk about sales.
with new customers, I mean, it's agreat way to break the ice and to create, find that commonality with a potential client really, really quickly.
and to connect on a human level, andthose are the sorts of things, you're telling someone a lot about yourself, you're creating a connection, you're also telling them about yourself.
(44:38):
And one of those things I think thatyou're telling them, if you can see the humor in a situation, and if you can laugh at yourself, if you can take the situation seriously, but not yourself seriously you're letting people know that you're easy to work with and you're pleasant to work with.
So when it comes to sales and,it's, people, we're all human.
We want to work with the person who makeslife easy, who makes things pleasant.
(45:02):
People will be more willing to workwith you rather than the other guy.
If they like your approach to theworld, I mean, it's, it's something that will really make you stand out and there'll be more likely to be, loyal to you when a lot of people are competing for their attention because they like the way you approach the world.
You got to get on the phone withthem or something goes wrong.
(45:23):
they know that, okay, you'll,take the situation down a notch, you'll have a laugh, and then you'll figure it out together.
Or they can feel confident recommendingyou to other people, and recommending your services because they know that other people will have a similar experience, that they're putting their clients in good hands.
Those are important things!
(45:45):
They really are, and it brings tomind the Maya Angelou quote, people won't remember what you said, won't remember what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel.
And I think that sums it up quite well.
Beth, you're now in the UK.
You mentioned very briefly the work thatyou do, but if somebody would like to connect with you, because our time is up, believe it or not, if somebody would like to connect with you, how might they do that and learn more about you?
(46:11):
Well, they might do it.
So my website, very, verycleverly named Beth Sherman.
com, B E T H S H E RM A N is just my name.
Beth Sherman.
com.
or find me on LinkedIn.
I'd love to connect withanyone that's listening.
and if you have listened, don'tjust connect by clicking connect, click connect and say, Hey, I heard John Susan's podcast.
(46:32):
let me know, let me know that orlet me know what you liked or what makes you laugh or the biggest laugh you had or your dumbest injury.
I mean, really, I loveconnection and LinkedIn.
So often people use it, they connect withpeople, but they don't really connect.
Oh, totally.
I know exactly what you mean.
(46:53):
so throw in a note, say, sayhello, but, yeah, that's the best way to get hold of me.
And I, I speak all over the UK.
I'm based here.
I'm based in London.
So,
Yeah, great.
Beth, thank you so much for your time.
It blew by.
And, yeah, thanks for being aguest on Life Beyond the Numbers.
my absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
(47:13):
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(47:38):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I'm kind of excitedactually to welcome Beth Sherman to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Beth, you're so welcome.
It's my pleasure to be here.
Thanks for having me, Susan.
And before we kick off, I'd just liketo say a special thanks to Helen Joy for introducing us and it's quite apt actually that this is Well, we'll talk about humor and we'll get into humor, but Helen and I bonded over laughter We shared a lunch together where we laughed so much that the bond between us was just there and we've worked together ever since.
(01:52):
so I think it's quite appropriatethat she would introduce me to you.
and I love Helen for that samereason, I met her a few times before I discovered that she had a sense of humor, because we met in sort of a professional setting, or in the setting of a professional association, and she was I was not, but she was on her best behavior, and then when the, the wall came down, what a great discovery.
(02:17):
Absolutely.
why does the wall go up?
What makes us want a wall in settings?
I mean, I think it was best behavior.
Maybe, maybe wall isn'tthe best description of it.
I have the benefit of being someonewho is professionally funny, not that necessarily that I have the skill, but because the things that I talk about, this was the Professional Speakers Association.
(02:42):
And as a speaker, I talk about humorand how to use humor for connection.
So I, I kind of have licenseto go in and be myself.
Not that everyone else doesn't,but it's definitely not something I have to second guess.
so when I want to make a goodimpression, that means, I need to make people laugh or or simply smile.
(03:03):
That's me making a good impression.
And, I guess a little bit of credibility.
Because you can tell peopleyou're funny, but it's a lot easier to just make them smile.
and more effective.
And I, I think, Helen and and otherpeople who, work in management, things like that, the instinct probably rightly so is let me present myself as an adult.
(03:26):
let me present myself, and, andthen let me read the room first.
So, it's not a huge wall, butit's, a professional pause.
It's a diagnosing the situation first.
Yeah,
I, I'm not capable of it.
but no, it's interesting because Ithink, bringing some humor into our workplaces could make a huge difference.
(03:55):
And there is something about, youknow, Perhaps we don't expect our CEOs or our politicians, I remember talking to somebody else about this, to stand up and make jokes.
We want them to be serious.
We want them to take everything seriously.
But then it diminishes everybody else'sability sometimes to have a laugh
(04:19):
Yeah.
And look, I don't want my politiciansstanding up and telling jokes.
As someone who is professionallyfunny, I don't want that.
But, when it comes to leadership, I thinkit's also defining what we mean by humor.
In there are situations where,yeah, if I'm on a comedy club stage, I'm telling jokes.
(04:41):
But in leadership and inprofessional situations, it's a matter of just getting a smile.
And there are lots and lots of ways.
you can do that.
So it's not necessarily telling jokes.
it's certainly not peopletrying to do bad standup.
the world doesn't need more comedians.
(05:03):
It certainly doesn't need more badcomedians because it can certainly undermine your credibility, but one of the most important things in comedy is self awareness.
and again, it's self awareness,not being self deprecating.
There's a difference.
Being self deprecating is, isspecifically is putting yourself down.
Self awareness is simply acknowledgingwhat your audience might be thinking or noticing about you or about the situation, the broader situation.
(05:30):
So in leadership or inbusiness, having self awareness.
is necessary, whether or not you'reusing it for humor, whether or not you're using it to get a laugh or a smile.
Self awareness as a leader is youhave to know how you're coming across.
You have to know how whatyou're saying is received.
(05:51):
And so to, to be clear, jokes frompeople, that's where you can also get into trouble with banter and things like that.
But self awareness is simply.
if you're a leader and you have to, oryou're middle management and you have to pass on a directive that you and everybody who works with you knows is bonkers, or probably not the right way, I think you can still lead and acknowledge that.
(06:28):
You don't have to necessarilysabotage or undermine.
the authority of the person aboveyou, but, you know, there's a slight inflection of, well, we have the new instructions, here's what they are.
I mean, but that simple bit, you'rereally, just acknowledging what everybody is thinking, but that creates connection.
(06:51):
And people don't have to be rollingon the floor, but it creates a smile, even if it's just kind of a, a quiet smile inside their own heads, they feel seen and heard and acknowledged.
Cause there's nothing worsethan someone talking at you.
You just feel like,
Humor is a way to say things betweenthe lines and sometimes in leadership, that's what people have to do, even if it's, this probably isn't a great idea, but I've been asked to do it, or This customer is going to be difficult.
(07:21):
I mean, these are the things that you'resaying between the lines of, this isn't going to be fun, but it's necessary.
But sometimes that's all ittakes to change the tone of a situation or an interaction.
completely.
And even as you were speaking, I couldflash meetings through my head where people acknowledge something like that and without saying something, but you knew that, Oh, okay.
(07:49):
So I'm not going crazy here.
Other people get thatthis is a crazy idea.
Yes, exactly.
But that can go when you are the one whohas to go and implement that crazy idea.
That's important information to have.
so that you're not just quietly simmeringwhile you're doing this thing thinking,
(08:10):
not to mention doubting yourself,because I would probably be thinking should I should have said something and beating myself up for that.
And then also just getting progressivelyangrier at everybody who's above me.
But at least you would know thatthis person who's asked me to do it.
Maybe they're not in favor of it,but they probably have my back.
So maybe they're going to helpme problem solve if I need it.
They won't be a brick wall to talk to.
(08:33):
that they've put some thought into it.
It's yeah, it sounds like a small thing,but it makes a really big difference.
Big difference in an organization.
And again, that comes back to connection.
If, if someone is telling you that,even between the lines, there's a lot more that they're telling you.
(08:55):
It's
Yeah.
I guess.
Yeah.
It speaks to as well, Beth, ison your headline in LinkedIn, you have, don't be funny, be human.
And I think that's what you'regetting at here as well.
Don't go out of your way to try andget people to laugh or make jokes or whatever, but actually just embrace the craziness that is life.
(09:24):
authenticity, isn't it?
I mean, like, we were just talking aboutHelen, who, again, was in the first times I met her, a bit more professional.
I mean, that's the right word for it.
but when people are their authenticself, I mean, these are people who, when they are in amongst friends and family, have a bit of a sense of humor.
(09:51):
I mean, we all do.
even if you don't consideryourself a funny person, we've all made someone laugh or smile.
we've probably found our partner.
I mean, that's why we fall forour partners often is because we feel connected to them.
And usually, humor isone of the big reasons.
Sometimes alcohol is one ofthe other ones, but that's how,
They kind of help eachother sometimes, too.
(10:14):
yeah, Hey, there's a reasonpickup lines tend to be funny.
but it's, it's authenticity, and,and people really respond to it.
there is room for being, forprofessionalism, but professionalism is being good at your job.
That's a given.
don't be funny, be human, is,you don't have to force it.
(10:35):
have the sense of humor, havethe ability to look at situations and see the humor in the that you do when you're outside of work.
how often do you go home from workand you're sitting at the dinner table or saying to your partner or your family, you just wouldn't even believe what happened today.
but hopefully in that moment orthe next day, hopefully that's also a moment that you've had with the people that you work with.
(11:04):
And sometimes you don't need to spellit out, sometimes it's just a look.
but yeah, don't be funny.
Don't force it.
Don't try to be someone that you're not.
Because people can see right through thatalso, if you're trying to be someone that you're not, whether it's being a comedian or Being a manager or someone that's, I'm a role follower, it's like when teenagers try on different personalities, we all sort of look and go, huh, yeah.
(11:40):
But be, just be who you are, try tobring as much as you can of that, when it comes to humor, try to bring that part of your personality into your work life.
the lower the wall, lower the guardjust a little bit, and try to get other people to lower their guard, because that's another thing that humor is great for, it's a way for people to just lower their guard a little bit.
(12:07):
Yeah, and I think teams that laughtogether, it's just a different dynamic.
because there's a bond thatlaughter brings, we talked about that at the beginning.
Also, there's a trust, I think, thathumor and that laughter enables trust.
(12:29):
Yeah, and there's a lot of truth inhumor, but if you look at teams that have the best sense of humor, often it's a very dark sense of humor, but if you look at first responders and people in the military, go to an emergency
room, or talk to some firefighters,or, there, there's, I have a friend who I, I met through LinkedIn, lovely guy, but he, you know, British commando, and one of his last jobs was, he was the head of the British forces, in Ukraine.
(12:58):
So this is someone who, who tosay he knows how to take things seriously is an understatement.
but we had coffee and he talkedabout how he very intentionally used humor as a tool in his leadership.
well, it's a tool for resiliencebecause you come back from a mission and
It's a way to release tension.
(13:20):
if everyone's at an 11, you have tobring it down before you can sort of really honestly talk about things.
he also said that he founded a reallyuseful tool in building connection he'd served all over the world, but he'd be in situations with village elders and, and things like that.
And.
this really tough guywith a really tough job
(13:44):
he had self awareness and he understoodthat using humor to show a little bit of vulnerability to not know the local custom or to make a little bit of a show.
when he's sitting down to tea withsomeone in a tent situation, but understood that sort of pretending or maybe exaggerating slightly that he didn't know the local custom, but being willing to be that fish out of water.
(14:07):
And again, Mr.
Army man commando, so not avulnerable guy, but he understood that that created connection.
If you can get a smile from someone, it'shard to hate someone who makes you laugh.
Or, or just smile.
I mean, it's worked for some people,it's possible, but, but, but it's, it's less, yeah, it's harder.
(14:30):
And especially now when things areso divided, especially in my country,
if you can make someone smile, or ifyou can make a room laugh, or just have that little moment, for that moment, everyone's on the same page.
And that is a rarer and rarer thing,but it can be what builds the trust,
(14:55):
builds the trust in the long term,but even just in the short term.
Someone will continue listeningto you, someone that they may have been sort of told or programmed that you're the bad guy.
it's a way of building trust andget them to listen to you for another few minutes and, and, and hear your side because you've sort of had that moment of authenticity and humanity and vulnerability.
(15:18):
Absolutely, I thinkthat's it, Beth, isn't it?
You see the human in the person again.
The person who you've heard is themonster or whatever, and suddenly you're laughing with them, and it lowers that judgment And I think there's something about I'm Laughter as well, Eve.
Our smiling brings us into thepresent moment like nothing else.
(15:44):
we're off in our headswandering and suddenly, you sort of bring us that moment.
There is a moment of presencewhere you're not worried about something and you feel joyful.
It connects you with your childhood.
Yeah.
Well, it's an involuntary response.
I mean, we can all fake it,but that genuine laughter.
it's nice, and not to mention thefact that it sends out all those happy chemicals, all the things, clearly I'm not a scientist, but it sends out all the happy chemicals, and they're, literally the same chemicals that you get when you eat chocolate or have sex, it, it's less likely you're going to do those in the first few seconds of meeting someone, we've all tried, but,
(16:23):
Chocolate eating only.
Laughter.
Chocolate eating, yes, yes.
but laughter, you can getthose chemicals going.
I, I had a thought, andthen it disappeared.
Yep, nope, the the hormones took it away.
See?
(16:44):
while you're waiting for it to comeback, if it does or not, what came up for me as you were talking about a commando, I used to work for an organization that cleared landmines and unexploded ordnance around the world.
So nothing funny about that.
No laughing matter.
It was really life and death.
I was working in finance, so I was prettysafe, but, we were based in Manchester and one time the vice president of Lau came to our offices and I was a director and we went out for dinner with him, the vice president and his first secretary
(17:20):
And there was a few directorsand actually over dinner.
What he wanted to talk about was Mr.
Bean.
It was one of the most surrealexperiences of my life, because it's just not what you're expecting.
But he's a human, after all.
(17:41):
And no matter who he was orhis standing in government or whatever, he liked to laugh.
And he was obsessed with Mr.
Bean.
Well, I would imagine after along day at work, yeah, if anyone needed a break, it was him.
The thing that I forgot earlier, but it's,it's, to that point, it's a quote from Victor Borga, who was a classical pianist, a comedian, and a Holocaust survivor, which talk about triple threat, that's quite a resume, but he said, laughter is the shortest distance between two people.
(18:16):
And it's true, and it's abeautiful way to say it.
And the vice president of Laos, or anybodyelse, yeah, needs to and wants to laugh.
We all have that in common.
(18:36):
Wow, that's such a powerfulstatement, actually, or quote.
That's really beautiful.
And coming from someone who had seenthe absolute worst of, what humanity can do, but one of his missions, because he was a classical pianist, but did funny songs and, wanted to share all of that, but did it with just, as a brilliant comedian, in front of the piano, but, chose to move past what he had seen with, wanting to bring people together.
(19:10):
And this was how he was able to do it.
Wow.
It's almost like stopped me.
So it's created a distance and now,because I, yeah, I'm quite taken by that.
I've listened to a couple of podcaststhat you've been on and you say that you have one skill, being funny.
(19:34):
But funny in your voiceand someone else's voice.
So maybe you'd tell us a littlebit about how that works, Beth.
How can you be funny insomeone else's voice?
I'll also say that, I mean, in terms ofskills, I'm also pretty good at cooking.
Good, good.
I'm sure you have more skills.
I have no doubt.
(19:55):
and, yeah, I was going to sayrunning, but I'm very slow.
so, so yeah, so being funny in myvoice and someone else's voice.
I grew up, I didn't reallylisten to music growing up.
I grew up in a family that had a greatsense of humor and we were talking before this, before we started recording about my dad and, and his sense of humor.
And my mom had a greatsense of humor as well.
(20:16):
and I come from a culture, I'mAmerican, East coast Jewish.
it's a, a culture that has probablymuch like Irish culture, but that has storytelling and a sense of humor kind of wired into it.
If you sit around the youbetter be able to keep up.
And you also betterhave a very loud voice.
my English wife always describedany meal with my family as shouty.
(20:42):
Why you speak loud?
We're just talking.
We're talking.
Why is she upset?
so, so, Growing up, I, didn'treally feel connected to music, but I discovered standup comedy.
I grew up in the eighties when the standupcomedy boom was happening in the U.
S.
and kind of fell in love with that.
My mom liked going to flea markets.
(21:02):
I hated it and was bored andwas a sulky kid and teenager go.
And I realized though, that therewere comedy albums, record albums, kids record albums, or big pieces of plastic that people used to put on a turntable and play.
No kids listen to this show.
Don't worry.
that's, that's probably true.
Yeah.
yeah.
And if they do, they probablyknow what records are if they're listening to a, a management podcast.
(21:25):
Good on you if you are.
Um,
so I listened, so I would listen to comedyalbums and these were comedy albums that were recorded live and the classics.
And if you're watching the video,you can sort of see a few of my favorites in the shot behind me.
So That's kind of how my brain was wired.
I didn't have the gutsto go on stage myself.
(21:47):
I didn't really thinkof it in those terms.
But once I discovered that beinga comedy writer, writing sitcoms, writing television as a comedy writer, that that was a job.
It's the only thing I wanted to do.
And I moved to California and I,I worked my way up and eventually that's the job I got to do.
So as a comedy writer working in a roomwith other people, comedy writers, and our entire job, on sitcoms, everyone figures out the story together, and then one person goes and writes the draft, and then the draft comes back in, and you spend your day trying to make it.
(22:21):
funnier and more engaging inthe voices of those characters.
And that's where I was, I was anassistant in that world, and my job was to take the notes, and a thousand jokes, and then you'd make sure that you have the one that the head writer said yes to, and then the few backups.
This was before AI couldsort of do all that for you.
(22:44):
And so that skill is being funnyin the voice of the character.
And in that case, they arecharacters that are fictional.
The first writing jobs I got wereon what is considered in the U.
S.
comedy variety, I was at, RosieO'Donnell had a show and then I was at David Letterman and the Tonight Show with Jay Leno and Ellen.
(23:06):
And those are shows thatare five days a week.
So in the UK, the equivalent wouldbe, I guess, Graham Norton, but doing it five days a week where about half the show is prepared comedy.
Graham comes out and does maybe three orfour monologue jokes and then sits down.
But these, these are bigpercentage of the show is, is comedy before the guests come out.
yeah.
And on those shows, depending onthe show, six, eight, ten of us, and our job is to, they're hosted by a comedian, is to, create a monologue in the voice of the comedian.
(23:37):
Sometimes it's more stand up y, sometimesit's more, current events, jokes about current events, topical comedy.
Ends.
the skill set is for that, notjust being funny, but being able to be funny in the voice of whoever is on camera for that show.
it's a slight difference, but it'san important difference because I have watched a lot of writers over the years come in and out of those rooms and they were maybe hilarious standups, but they just couldn't quite tailor it to someone else's voice.
(24:12):
Cause the same observation mightbe funny, but it has to be in the voice of the person who's standing in front of the camera.
During that time, I did finally getthe, because I was working with a lot of comedians, and was getting paid to be funny, so I finally got the courage to go up and do stand up,
so in addition to 27, 28 years asa comedy writer, I spent 15 of them also doing stand up, and nights and weekends I would go to good clubs and, and around the world.
(24:41):
locally, and then during hiatusweeks on the show, I would go and travel across the U.
S.
and do a week, and here and there, andand do, do the road, is what it's called, and including military bases, and I even went to Iraq and did two weeks in Iraq.
so basically my TV writing career iswhere I channeled my ability to be funny in, into someone else's voice.
(25:03):
And then, as a stand up, one ofthe adjustments I had to make was how to be funny in my own voice.
I could write the joke as if itwas for someone else, but then I had the opposite problem.
How do I tailor that back tobe what the heck do I think?
what do I think is funnyabout that situation?
So, That's where that weirdlittle skill set came from.
in my TV career lately, for the pastfew years, a lot of what I've been doing is, is working on award shows.
(25:28):
So that's, so the, the Screen ActorsGuild Awards a few times, the Oscars a couple of times, and there you have to write in the voice of whoever is the presenter for that particular category.
So we basically write everything rightup until, and the nominees are, So, it's okay, it's Best Cinematography, and Tom Hanks is delivering it, or someone's giving, Helen Mirren a Lifetime Achievement Award.
(25:54):
I think it was Kate Winslet wasgiving Helen Mirren, so, we get brought in to write something that is in their voice, sometimes you have an interview, initial call with the person, and they, because they have a sense of what they would like to say.
sometimes we just write the draft,and then it goes to the talent department, who then gets it to that person's people, and then it sort of filters back to us with changes.
(26:17):
But the goal is not just for something tobe funny or interesting, but to be funny or interesting in that person's voice.
And on those shows, there's,30 or 40 different, presenters or different people speaking.
So then you really get good at tryingto get the ear for how would this person say that, and then it's a collaboration.
(26:39):
I also have a speech writing business, andhave done for, for seven or eight years where I help the people with personal and professional speeches, helping them make it funnier, more engaging.
I read a ton of wedding speeches,some are, some's ghostwriting, and some we spend an hour on a Zoom call, and I help you take your existing material and, and tweak it.
(27:02):
What happened next?
And using, and the rest, And now,because I'm speaking, I've met a lot of speakers, and so now I also help a lot of professional speakers make their keynotes funnier and more engaging, because they're very good at what they do.
They're not first time speakerslike a lot of the CEOs and, and the people in the other business.
These are people who speak all thetime, but they will get booked more, they will have more fun themselves, their audiences will enjoy it more, the material will land better.
(27:33):
Because people will be paying closerattention and will be enjoying the experience if they can find ways to be authentically funny or to just sort of sprinkle in that humor.
And I talk about humor as a seasoning.
think of it as salt.
You don't always need a lot,but you always need some.
Every dish needs some salt, darkchocolate, you need just a couple of grains of sea salt, and it's delicious, but sometimes it's movie theater popcorn and you want a whole bunch of salt.
(28:01):
But again, it's just seasoning,it's not a bucket full of salt with some popcorn, it's still a bucket of popcorn with some salt.
I've now been talking for 40 minutes andcan't remember the original question.
I think it had something to do withhow your skill is being funny in your voice and someone else's voice.
(28:21):
So that's kind of the longanswer of how, I acquired that skill set and how I use it now.
Thank you.
It wasn't a test.
Okay.
That's okay.
But like, it's quite fascinating causeI mean, the whole story is really fascinating, Beth, how you worked
(28:41):
Thank God.
Yeah, no, it was, itwas really fascinating.
And I think, On TV, we seecomedy rooms where people sit around and write, sitcoms.
I mean, I think there's evensitcoms about those kind of sitcoms, or that writing room.
I think it's really different to thinkthat Kate Winslet, for example, doesn't just come out there and say what's on her mind, or whoever or Ellen, I would have, I think I just imagined that Ellen always just said what Ellen wanted to say.
(29:14):
And I guess.
Yeah.
Hmm.
I was going to say just to that, becausea lot of people are surprised that shows like that have writers, and, the thing is, these are people who have spent 20 or 30 years building a voice, building a career, and that's why they are hosting these shows.
They're very, very good at what they do,but as a comedian, or as a professional speaker, you speak at a different place.
(29:42):
as a comedian, you're on the road, right?
It's a different audience every night.
As a speaker, you're atdifferent companies every day.
So you can use the same material and tweakit, and every so often you update it.
But if the show is five days a week.
It's an hour long show, five days a week.
And all these shows that I workedon, it's an hour, five days a week.
(30:03):
And I don't care how good you are,but five new hours of material a week, you're going to need some help.
So that's where people like me come in.
it's not a crutch.
It's a necessity.
Also, the hosts of those showsare very involved because they are comedians themselves, it all gets filtered through them.
And sometimes they have an idea andthen it's our job to sort of work on it.
(30:26):
But it's a matter of volume.
It's not a matter of lazinessor, or being spoiled.
And in the case of awardshows, these are busy people.
so it's Not that Kate Winslet orTom Hanks or Helen Mirren couldn't sit down and, and write something.
if they're presenting something,you know, best sound editing.
(30:48):
First of all, there is a talking point.
So, so it's kind of our job to,here's the talking point and then think of something funny or a way to make it sort of interesting.
but these are busy people.
So it's giving them a starting point.
it's not because they don'thave the ability to do it.
Part of the reason is, look, thisperson's already going to, to have a, probably a full day of hair and makeup.
(31:12):
They're going to be meeting with stylists.
They're going to bedoing all those things.
They're going to take time out oftheir schedule to come to Los Angeles.
Or wherever it is, the awardshow is have a whole day.
And these are people who could beshooting anywhere in the world or filming something anywhere in the world.
So they've already by agreeing tocome have made a massive commitment of time and energy and expense.
So it's giving them, so they'renot starting with a blank page.
(31:34):
Sometimes it ends up being all of them.
Sometimes it ends up being all us,but it's an offer from the producer.
let us make this experience asseamless for you as possible.
No,
and I never thought theywere lazy or spoiled.
(31:55):
I suppose you don't
no, no, I know you're not thinking that.
you never know what'sgoing on behind the scenes.
I think that's the other thing is,what we're presented with, what we listen to, even as you listen to this podcast episode, no one knows that.
I did some research first.
Okay.
I mentioned it right at thebeginning, but you know, I
(32:16):
so needy, Susan!
totally, but it's funny how I thinkwe, we take for granted so much.
That's just in front of us and oftendon't think about all the work that goes on in the background to produce.
something that hits the mark.
And I guess I can't stop thinking aboutChris Rock and Will Smith and clearly that wasn't scripted but that line that Chris Rock came up with where at the end when he turned to everybody and said that was the greatest night in the history of television I just thought that was so
(32:54):
amazing a response and I always wonderedI mean I'm not asking you whether you know or not but He was a comedian so I expected that he came up with that on the spot, but I suppose it's also possible that someone said that to him who hadn't been smacked in the face.
Well, yes, that was definitely, Iwasn't on the show that year, I was on the show the year before, so, but, that was definitely not planned.
(33:19):
Things that are planned are funny.
Yes, no, that was not funny.
it was not funny, that was actually kindof horrific, because if you lack that kind of impulse control in front of an audience of a billion people on a live broadcast, couldn't even wait till the commercial.
You're it makes me wonder what you'relike at home, when people aren't watching.
(33:39):
but Chris Rock, I mean, comedianshave 40 years, because I think he started as a teenager, so 40 years of craft, 30, 40 years of craft in that.
I don't know, but when you write onthe show, the host has writers, and at commercial breaks, There'll be a little conference, a little quick huddle, looking ahead, looking back, looking ahead.
(34:03):
Is there anything we sort of needto acknowledge or talk about?
So I have no idea whetheror not it was him or someone else, but it is a team sport.
So I don't even think it matters.
he's the one that went out and sold it.
So I think it's very likely itwas him or the core of it was him.
But, he's the one thatwent out and sold it.
(34:23):
humor in those situations, I mean,even without the violence, but in a comedy room, it really is a team sport because someone will say.
Okay, bad pitch, but, becausesometimes you're close to it, but you need that other person's brain.
And if you think of it like basketballor, if only I was good at sports, but basketball or volleyball, it kind of all usually feels more like volleyball.
(34:44):
someone puts the ball in the air.
They can't maybe get it over thenet, but they can put it in the air.
And then there's someone elseif you have a good team, someone else goes, Oh yeah, I got it.
And they're the one thatputs it over the net.
So it.
genuinely is a team sport, becauseespecially humor and jokes, when you're trying to come up with original material, you can't do it in a vacuum.
(35:05):
You need some sort of audience, andsometimes that's a trusted writing partner, or just a trusted friend, or a, colleague in professional situations, or often it's the audience.
Because I can look at something as acomedian, and with all my experience, and I've seen this with every single host, Ellen, Jay, everyone.
(35:28):
It can look great on paper, but youstill have to go, is this anything?
Is anything?
I don't know.
But that's why you do it in front ofan audience, because there are always the things that are hilarious to you when you're sitting there writing it, or when you jot it down, and things that you think, I, I don't know, but I just need to fill up the page.
(35:49):
or I just need something.
And inevitably, the thing that you thinkis great, gets a little bit of reaction.
And the thing that you sort of sayoffhand, or the thing that you just kind of put in as filler, on the way to the next thing, gets a huge laugh, and you can't explain it, but you need the audience to let you know.
(36:11):
And I think that goes for so many things.
I mean, people are alwaystalking about that with kids.
posting on LinkedIn, the day you justgo on the keyboard and put it out there is the day it's going to go viral.
And the day you sit forhours, really thinking about something, no one even reads it.
And there is something aboutengagement, isn't there?
Always saying it aloud and notjust keeping it to yourself.
(36:33):
That's,
Yeah, and maybe it goes to authenticity,maybe the things when we don't overthink things, when we just kind of say it, maybe that's, maybe that's what people intuit, maybe people just smell it, feel it on you, and they know you have it.
Overthought it.
I, I think, I mean, good Lord,lots of those LinkedIn posts are definitely overthought.
(36:55):
so maybe when people don'tdo it, it really stands out.
that's quite true actually.
That could be it.
and also I think when you'renot overthinking it, you're saying what's on your mind.
You're just letting it out.
And sometimes that's just the best way.
And it's not even the authenticity almost.
It's the, the unpolished that, well, Isuppose maybe that's authentic as well.
(37:17):
The rawness, you just feel theemotion perhaps in somebody's post.
It's vulnerability and vulnerabilitydoesn't have to be your sob story.
Vulnerability can just be, closedmy thumb in the refrigerator.
Here's what it looks like now.
and that was one of my best posts.
I really did.
I closed my thumb and it blackened thenail, you know, when you, you get that.
(37:38):
And I.
I literally, I, I reached in toget some cream and was too lazy to close the door, take two steps.
And so I was kind of hanging onto itand thought, I mean, I'm five feet tall.
Why I thought my wingspanwas adequate, I don't know.
But the door ended up kind of closingand it just, the angle that it hit was just enough to, to, to get my thumb.
(38:01):
But I posted that and I said,what dumb injuries do you have?
And let me tell you, I'venever had a post like that.
everyone wanted to share, I askedother people their, their dumbest injuries, and I've never had a post that's done so well, and the injuries were fantastic that people gave.
I can imagine.
I can absolutely imagine.
(38:21):
And hilarious!
And hilarious, yeah.
Yeah, because we all love tosee, who's been framed when people fall over backwards into the water or whatever it is.
I mean, it just brings outagain, that childlike, it touches something inside us, doesn't it?
To, to laugh at other peopleor with them, but kind of like, thank God that wasn't me.
(38:43):
And at ourselves!
Yeah, exactly, to laugh atthe and to laugh at ourselves.
Because again, that's selfawareness, coming back to where we started with that self awareness.
And that's just, you have to.
I mean, if you've ever seen someone sortof trip on the sidewalk, do that little stumble, not fall down, but do that little stumble, you can tell how they handle it.
If they sort of smile and you cantell they're thinking, well, I'm an idiot, or some people just get really annoyed and then just keep going.
(39:09):
You go, what's the matter with you?
But it gives you immediatelyinsight into their personality.
It does, it does.
And humour as a love language, Beth.
You've talked about that being a TED Talk.
I heard you say that somewhere.
(39:29):
And I think it's such a novelidea, what TED Talks are all about.
Well, one, one hopes.
that's the one.
I've rubbed my scent all over that one.
that's, if I do a Ted, when I do aTed Talk, that is what I'd like to do.
Because I genuinely believethat humor is a love language.
It's a way to say things thatwe couldn't or wouldn't say.
(39:53):
directly.
I tell a story about my dadwho, it was his only language.
he was of that generation and hewent from a boy's school to the Navy.
So those three things meant thathe just couldn't, open up about how he was feeling, but humor genuinely was his love language.
his greatest pleasure in life was makingpeople laugh or smile, me especially.
(40:17):
And so if that's not love,I don't know what is.
I mean, that's nurturing.
I've been telling the story lately.
It's, I mean, talk about sayingthings that you wouldn't say directly.
It always stood out at me because Iwas waiting for a coffee one morning, I was still on my way to a gig and, I'm in the train station waiting for a coffee and the guy in front of me in line was just an absolute jerk to the kid behind the counter.
(40:43):
And all I did when I got to thefront was just say, he seems nice.
And it, and it, it, it, it made her smile,you know, it's not a hilarious joke.
It was just sort ofacknowledging what was going on.
And when I thought about what I wassaying with that, he seems nice.
(41:07):
I was saying, I see you,want you to feel good.
Those are things I definitely would nothave said directly to the kid behind the counter at the Starbucks in Paddington station, because that would be creepy.
I see you.
Oh, I want you to feel good.
I mean, you can't say that to people.
(41:29):
they'll drag you off in handcuffs, butyou can still let that person know that what that guy was doing wasn't okay.
I saw that.
You were not the only one that saw that.
You know, kind of, I have your back.
I'm a total stranger to you.
(41:50):
But, but those are importantthings, I think, to say to each other and to let people know.
Absolutely.
And changes.
that person's dynamic and how they mightbe for the rest of the day, because it's broken that tension, perhaps, where they were like feeling like crap after somebody wasn't really nice to them.
(42:14):
And then suddenly, yeah, likeyou say, you acknowledge they're human and they're there and people shouldn't be like that to them.
exactly.
It changes the wholetone of the experience.
And if that's.
Not love.
I don't know what is.
I mean, that is humor as alove language in small ways.
(42:34):
And, in a business situation,I mean, that's leadership.
It's showing that you care about people.
It doesn't have to be big love.
but it's showing that you,you are looking after people.
your people and that you have a stakein how they feel and how they succeed.
And, they just feel looked after.
It doesn't have to betouchy feely kumbaya love.
(42:56):
It can just be nurturing ina professional situation.
And I,
And, and, oh
sorry, it's back to what wetalked about at the beginning.
Don't be funny, be human, becauseI think it makes you approachable.
There's a level playing field aboutbeing humorous and in fact, maybe the vulnerability is a good word, but there is something that even if you're not being vulnerable at the time that you have a bit of laugh with people, there's something that people just see that you're normal.
(43:28):
In inverted commas, becausethat's a big spectrum.
yeah, it's commonality, right?
yeah, it's, it's commonality,which is, is just, a key principle, I think, in, in anything.
It's
yeah, like you said, it, it levelsthe playing field and it's such an efficient way to do that.
(43:52):
How long did it take forme to say, he seems nice.
I don't even know if that's a second.
Is that two seconds, but the abilityto transmit, transmit, to transmit so much information in such a short time.
I mean, that's a good skill set to have.
(44:13):
I mean, separate fromleadership, talk about sales.
with new customers, I mean, it's agreat way to break the ice and to create, find that commonality with a potential client really, really quickly.
and to connect on a human level, andthose are the sorts of things, you're telling someone a lot about yourself, you're creating a connection, you're also telling them about yourself.
(44:38):
And one of those things I think thatyou're telling them, if you can see the humor in a situation, and if you can laugh at yourself, if you can take the situation seriously, but not yourself seriously you're letting people know that you're easy to work with and you're pleasant to work with.
So when it comes to sales and,it's, people, we're all human.
We want to work with the person who makeslife easy, who makes things pleasant.
(45:02):
People will be more willing to workwith you rather than the other guy.
If they like your approach to theworld, I mean, it's, it's something that will really make you stand out and there'll be more likely to be, loyal to you when a lot of people are competing for their attention because they like the way you approach the world.
You got to get on the phone withthem or something goes wrong.
(45:23):
they know that, okay, you'll,take the situation down a notch, you'll have a laugh, and then you'll figure it out together.
Or they can feel confident recommendingyou to other people, and recommending your services because they know that other people will have a similar experience, that they're putting their clients in good hands.
Those are important things!
(45:45):
They really are, and it brings tomind the Maya Angelou quote, people won't remember what you said, won't remember what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel.
And I think that sums it up quite well.
Beth, you're now in the UK.
You mentioned very briefly the work thatyou do, but if somebody would like to connect with you, because our time is up, believe it or not, if somebody would like to connect with you, how might they do that and learn more about you?
(46:11):
Well, they might do it.
So my website, very, verycleverly named Beth Sherman.
com, B E T H S H E RM A N is just my name.
Beth Sherman.
com.
or find me on LinkedIn.
I'd love to connect withanyone that's listening.
and if you have listened, don'tjust connect by clicking connect, click connect and say, Hey, I heard John Susan's podcast.
(46:32):
let me know, let me know that orlet me know what you liked or what makes you laugh or the biggest laugh you had or your dumbest injury.
I mean, really, I loveconnection and LinkedIn.
So often people use it, they connect withpeople, but they don't really connect.
Oh, totally.
I know exactly what you mean.
(46:53):
so throw in a note, say, sayhello, but, yeah, that's the best way to get hold of me.
And I, I speak all over the UK.
I'm based here.
I'm based in London.
So,
Yeah, great.
Beth, thank you so much for your time.
It blew by.
And, yeah, thanks for being aguest on Life Beyond the Numbers.
my absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
(47:13):
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(47:38):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!