December 7, 2024 • 38 mins
"The actions that we take are the things that are going to get us results, whether we like it or not. And so looking at those results, which business leaders are looking at all the time. We're always looking at those results. Are we meeting our outcomes? Are we meeting our metrics? And if we're not getting those results, well, we're not taking the right actions." Katie McLaughlin
Katie McLaughlin returns to Life Beyond the Numbers to chat to me about the team dynamics and how our emotions and actions driver our results. We cover the role emotions play in shaping team performance and the link between emotional awareness and intentional action in the workplace. Katie speaks of her unique use of theatre techniques to help teams explore and transform workplace dynamics. We chat about the importance of having fun and creating moments of levity to improve team culture and how leaders can foster psychological safety and trust within their teams. A key takeaway from this episode is the common misconception we might have that if our actions got results there's this assumption that those actions are correct ... however, there's a lot of different actions that could be taken to get the same results.
Katie McLaughlin is an engaging speaker, workshop facilitator, and strategy consultant with over 15 years of experience in high-growth companies such as Wayfair, Upserve, and Rocket Lawyer. In 2020, Katie founded McLaughlin Method, a boutique consulting firm specializing in improving team and company culture through actionable, interactive, skill-building programs. She facilitates team workshops as the core focus of her practice, customizing sessions to fit specific industries, team dynamics, and outcomes. Leveraging her background in theater, Katie creates a fun, judgment-free environment where teams can improve collaboration and achieve goals through empathy, open communication, and conflict resolution. She has facilitated thousands of workshops, helping teams build collaborative cultures and achieve immediate improvements in empathy and connectivity.
Connect with Katie:
Her website: www.mclaughlinmethod.com
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mclaughlinkatie/
Resources Mentioned:
Free Team Health Score Quiz www.teamhealthscorequiz.com
Episode 104 Your Intention https://www.beyond-thenumbers.com/podcast-episodes/104
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am absolutely delightedto welcome back Katie McLaughlin to a Life Beyond the Numbers.
Katie, you're so welcome.
Thank you so much for having me back.
I love chatting with you.
So Katie first was on Life Beyondthe Numbers on episode 104.
It's called Your Intention andit's definitely worth having a listen to if you haven't already.
(01:38):
And even if you have, goback and refresh yourself.
So today Katie and I are going totalk about something that is the cornerstone of every organization.
And I love that you say that, Katie.
What brought you to that realization?
Well, ultimately the teams ishow we, first of all, okay.
(02:03):
It's how we're organizingourselves, right?
We're all part of some kind of team,whether that's, the broad team of our organization, or our department and our, people we work with every day.
And teams are the biggest source ofour inspiration, our brainstorming, our innovation, and the strife and challenge and interpersonal stuff.
(02:29):
and especially for leaders, because Iwork with a lot of leaders in addition to working with their teams, for leaders, the team culture and the team environment is the place you have the most control over.
You may not have control over how manypeople are on your team, what you have from a resource perspective to reward your team or pay them or fairly or what have you, you may be working in a structure in your company that is not aligned with the leader and the team culture that you want to create, but.
(03:03):
You have control, of your team andso much of what I talk about and what I teach in how, we show up in the workplace and, engage with each other is focusing first on what you can control.
And, and so that is very empoweringand, and really gives us some freedom, to make change and to create the workplace of our dreams.
(03:26):
I feel like part of ourdreams, the dream team.
Yes, right, we talk about the Dream Teamall the time, especially in the workplace, and, one of the companies I worked for had, this little hashtag that they, came up with, which was hashtag one team, and it was a really great banner, now I don't
think that company was actually reallygood at, fulfilling on that promise, but it did become this like really rallying cry and this reminder that as individual teams, we are part of one team.
(03:59):
And so there's a lot of work andrichness to that on, building a stronger organization as one team too.
And I think, well, the Olympics havejust been on, and I don't know if you caught much of what was happening, but I just love The, relays, right?
So the teams, so whatever aboutbasketball and football and netball and all of those fine, but actually the relay teams in the pool and on the track, that is pure teamwork in a way that they rely so much on one another.
(04:35):
I just think if we had that attitudein our own teams, in an organization, we're always going to win.
Trying to make sure thatwe don't let people down.
Yes, yes.
And like, I'm so glad you broughtthat up because the relay concept and I specifically think about, swimming, because I watch a lot of the swimming events.
there's usually four people, I think, ona relay, and they're all put in the order or in the stroke that is their strength.
(05:04):
And and they're not beingasked to do something that's not in their strength, right?
Maybe when they're training, right?
They're gonna be asked to stretchthemselves and all of that, which is, you know, we often focus on that in the workplace, right?
Of working on your opportunitiesor your weaknesses or blind spots.
But in reality, Like, we all want tolean into our strengths, our secret sauce, our highest and best good, a leader once, used that phrase with me.
(05:31):
our strengths are partof what lights us up.
It helps us to feel successful so we canthen step into places of challenge, of opportunity, of stretching ourselves.
We can't live in that stretching place.
No, and we also want to set it up sowhoever comes after us has the best start, which I think when we work in a team in an organization, we may hand over work to somebody in our team who they might have to pick up the pieces.
(06:02):
Which is like dropping therelay baton There's something about that energy, isn't there?
That rather than just trying to makeourselves look good in a team, we're also focused on the team performance,
Absolutely.
And, you know, I think about, especiallywith delegation, right, with leaders, and so much of the miscommunication that comes into the workplace, and often like our dissatisfaction maybe as leaders or as team members with the performance of somebody else is that we didn't do enough.
(06:35):
to hand it off to themin a strong way, right?
Maybe we didn't have clear expectations,we didn't give them the resources, or, even just like sometimes like the links, like the artifacts, right, that they need.
we just make these assumptionsthat they just know that.
But if we haven't set themup for success, then how are they supposed to start strong?
(06:56):
which then, like you said,miscommunication, but also conflict
Yes.
and conflict in teams.
I mean whatever about the widerorganization and being annoyed with that department or that team and so on, but within a team can be particularly disruptive I think.
So what can you do tohelp teams dig into this?
(07:24):
Well, so, first of all, Our teams andour workplace should be having more fun,
when we're laughing when we're havinga good time, it makes it easier to bring up things that are a little bit more challenging, right, or to, feel like we can trust somebody so we can ask a question and feel Don't worry about, are they going to think that I'm dumb because I don't understand what they mean by something, right?
(07:53):
it provides us a chance to givepeople a little more grace and a little more consideration, too.
and so when I work with teams, I typicallywork in a kind of workshop format.
Call it training if you want.
call it team building if you want.
but it's really a workshop whereit's experiential learning process and, theater is my secret sauce that I brought into business.
(08:15):
That's, where I started my educationaljourney and then just have moved into the business world, and just leveraged all of those skills and strengths from there.
in the business world.
So I bring that back in through myworkshops to first cultivate that sense of fun and play, and get ourselves the chance to just be a little silly.
especially like if we'reon, our video call, right?
(08:38):
Like the, one of the first things I havepeople do is I'm like, lift your arms up.
We never lift our arms up.
in our video, right?
and, we start laughing, right?
We start smiling.
We're like, this is weird.
and then I, I bring us into someprogressively more, like, embodied work that has us think about, like, real scenarios in the workplace and how we really feel about them.
(09:01):
Because how we feel inthese different scenarios.
AKA our emotions, our emotions are drivingthe actions that we take in the workplace.
And so the actions that we take arethe things that are going to get us results, whether we like it or not.
And so looking at those results,which business leaders are looking at all the time, right?
(09:23):
We're always looking at those results.
Are we meeting our outcomes?
Are we meeting our metrics?
And if we're not getting those results,well, we're not taking the right actions.
And many times leaders arelooking at that, right?
Our teams are looking at that,but we're not looking at why we're not taking those right actions.
And we're not taking those rightactions that are going to lead to the results we want because of our emotions.
(09:47):
And so we have to be looking backat those emotions and what is the culture and the team environment doing?
To influence those emotions and whatdo we need to change, which oftentimes it's really small changes to change our emotions so that we can get to those actions and results we want.
(10:08):
Music to my ears,obviously, for many reasons.
So first of all, how do people reactwhen you tell them that emotions need to be tackled to change results or impact the actions that need to be taken to change results?
Completely.
there's people kind of all on aspectrum, right, of reactions, and I'm sure you see this in your own work, historically, culturally in business, we're like, emotions have no place in the workplace, and the more and more
(10:42):
that we continue to move and shift ourunderstanding of business to recognize that emotions and feelings are part of our whole selves, which our whole selves in the workplace has been a theme for a long time in culture.
And I say, especially in the likestartup and tech space, which kind of leads with that wanting people to be their whole selves.
(11:04):
but the idea of that isnot equaling action, right?
We can't just talk.
We have to follow that up with action.
And so it's that connection betweenemotions and action that I'm finding people are not by default understanding.
And that's why I talk about it so much,and that's why I use it very action based experiential exercises from theater to help us literally see and feel those emotions, in a non traumatizing, safe, non performative way, so we can see, right?
(11:45):
Well, if I'm in this space,what actions am I going to take?
And are those actions goingto get me the results?
Thank you.
That I want, maybe, as a, person in theworkplace, or that my boss wants, right, so I can keep my job, and, and so it, it, usually that really helps people to kind of jumpstart that process, but, yeah, and just that whole follow through of knowing versus action, knowing versus doing, is a place where I'm not seeing enough,
(12:18):
It's the, the cognitiveversus the embodied, isn't it?
I think we can intellectually graspa lot of this stuff quite often.
But whether it translates into the actionyou're talking about is a whole other
whole other conversation because we'reused to learning things off by heart in school or just learning to pass exams and not actually immersing ourselves into the knowledge and living and breathing it.
(12:51):
And I think it takes a whilefor us to understand that just knowledge isn't everything.
Yeah, absolutely.
I often talk about going beyond theory.
And into action, right?
You can be studying, all of these things,we were talking earlier about how the brain, like, kind of influences things and we can learn how the brain works.
(13:17):
And that can be interesting, andI talk about it a lot because I think it's fascinating, and I do think it's really informative.
but without knowing what to dowith that information, how to apply it, is just knowledge.
Like, the smartest scholars outthere wouldn't be the best operators.
(13:41):
in business.
And I don't mean that to be like,say that we shouldn't have them.
We need them.
We need this well rounded society thathas people focused on different things.
but we assume that knowledge equalsaction and it really doesn't.
back to swimming, but you cannot learnto swim unless you get in the water.
I mean, you just can't.
(14:02):
And yet, yet we think that we can controlour results without using our emotions.
And that is, I think it's fundamentallychanging how we're going to interact and work with each other as time goes on, but at the moment we're stuck almost in this gray area of is it really true that I can be emotional at work?
(14:34):
Is it really true that emotionsinfluence action or can I just
Mm.
way out of this?
Yes.
I spent a lot of my career inthe, like, tech and startup space, and I know a number of founders, they are so hyper-focused on the sustainability of my company, right?
And getting funding, getting customers,like looking at the broader numbers.
(14:57):
Are we able to get toprofitability and all of that.
And so their emotions, right,are frenzied and stressed.
And when we're in that frenziedand stressed space, our actions are going to be informed by that, right?
(15:18):
Our actions include thingslike snapping at people.
And, maybe not being intentionalwith how we ask questions like, What's the status of this thing?
And you can ask that in a waythat is very approachable.
And sometimes it's just tone.
But tone is lost when we're in thisremote first work world, right?
a quick, instant message at work, right,using whatever platform you use, of, you know, I need a status update of blah, like can send somebody into a tailspin of, oh my god, I'm going to lose my job and, it's not good enough and, what are they expecting from me when in reality that leader is just literally wanting to know, like, are things on track?
(15:59):
Do you need my help?
Right?
we forget that we impact other people.
And so, it's just we have to be reallythinking about how our actions are also getting interpreted because they're getting put into somebody else's emotion action result, like, cycle.
(16:21):
And we can't control other people.
But those founders, those, Clevel executives, they aren't necessarily cultivating enough space for themselves to be aware.
of how their actions aren't necessarilygetting the results that they need to put people in the place where their emotions can drive the actions and results that the leader's looking for,
(16:49):
it's like a Catch 22 in a way, isn't it?
And I, because space, time are the thingsthat you require to slow down, to actually feel your feet, to listen for the quiet voice inside, whatever it is, there's so many ways, but allowing yourself that almost Luxury, I think is what people think it is, rather than seeing that as
(17:20):
a necessity that will get you off yourhamster wheel So I suppose I'm thinking, Katie, is there something really simple that people can do just to notice a difference and, and notice, ooh, my emotions are here in this room with me, or if I slow down, ooh, this is what happens.
(17:43):
hmm.
Absolutely.
The first thing that Irecommend is taking a breath.
Like, we can all do that.
It takes just a fewseconds, not even, right?
and by taking a single breath.
It is enough.
It's ridiculous, the power of thebreath, and people that are much more entrenched in that world can speak, more intelligently about why.
(18:07):
But if you just take a single breath,and I invite anybody who's listening to this, I'm gonna do it, take a breath,
and just that gives you a moment to stopyour brain, the adrenaline that is running out of control, it gives it a moment for that like rational brain to click back in so we can have this connection between our rational brain, our emotional brain, and then we can make a choice.
(18:40):
Because how we interactwith people is a choice.
And we don't see it like that.
We just rely so much on our defaults.
And so, part of how I do this inmy workshops, through the theater exercises, is I have people, create images of, you know, their kind of immediate response to something.
like a business scenario,a conflict, what have you.
(19:02):
and they create an image of that.
and then we go through theemotions, actions, results.
And then I have them create a differentimage of how do you want to show up?
In that scenario, in order to get theactions and results that you need and recognizing that it is possible to choose, but we have to give ourselves that space and also that awareness that we can write that we aren't, first of all, that we're not choosing that our defaults maybe aren't doing what we need and that we can choose something different that can get us closer to those results we want.
(19:42):
Which I love because it also then feedsinto taking personal responsibility for your emotions, actions and results.
And okay, we talked about team and ofcourse you're going to be part of a team, but also if the results of the team are not where you'd like them to be, being able to say, well, what's my role in this?
(20:08):
Thanks.
Or how are my emotions and actionsimpacting the results is a choice, and maybe not one people often choose.
Right.
we don't know that we're doing it.
Right?
You know, and I've always comefrom the perspective of assuming that nobody wants to be a jerk.
(20:33):
No,
wants to be a bad boss.
If somebody out there is listeningand wants to, like, can we talk?
Because I just want toknow what that's like.
you know, nobody does.
We often are.
And we have to have a certainlevel of humility to understand that, like, nobody's perfect, and we all have work to do, and that doesn't make us a bad person, right?
(21:02):
If you're listening to this podcast oryou've, watched anything, you're making any kind of investment in improving yourself, especially in the workplace, as a leader, as a, as a professional, you're already starting down that process.
Right?
And now it's like, okay, so what areyou going to do with that knowledge?
(21:23):
And that leap from knowledgeto action is not easy.
And that's why people like you and Iexist, and why we're doing the work that we do, is because we've kind of figured out how to help people do that.
And it's okay to ask for help.
Right?
There's where that humility piececomes in, that asking for help is okay.
(21:43):
if you think about it, like youwant your people to tell you that they need help because that's what you're there for, right?
As a leader, as a team member, youknow, if we didn't need each other in the workplace, we wouldn't have teams.
no, we could just do everything alone.
And it's also sometimes you need theoutsider, outside of a team to come in and help you see that perhaps you're going round in circles.
(22:14):
Or, yeah, there's thatdifferent perspective.
And I think as well, the situationsthat we have in the workplaces now, or the way the world is, is increasingly complex and uncertain.
And actually, in that environmentas well, having an outsider makes a huge difference.
(22:37):
Just, I think the thing about it is,is we have this idea perhaps of you and I coming in and telling people how to do things, which is absolutely not what, well, I can't speak for you, but I can certainly speak for myself.
And I can imagine that that's not.
And I think what we don't know is that.
(22:57):
the facilitation that happens orthe work in the workshop is people seeing themselves differently and being able to choose, like you say, a different way of acting or behaving.
Totally.
If we didn't value an outside likeopinion, we wouldn't buy a business book.
Right?
We wouldn't be listening to a podcast.
We wouldn't be watching a video ortaking a course or any of those things.
(23:22):
Right?
And, you know, but we don't alwaysmake the leap to how, like, bringing someone in for a short period of time even, can get us, like, just out of whatever rut we might be in.
You know, we do the same thing every day,often, without really that chance to get a fresh perspective and, think outside the box, move outside the box, you know?
(23:45):
yeah, it's really important,
Yeah, that's a great way oflooking at actually that you can be listening to something for the help.
You can read it, but that's back to theknowledge again, and it's actually putting stuff into practice that It may be really hard to challenge your boss, for example, and say, Hey, our team could be better.
(24:10):
We could do things a bitdifferently around here.
and to do that, we're going to needsomeone else's intervention as such.
right?
Yeah, I often, especially when I'mworking with a team who, has gone through some big change recently or is kind of actively dealing with some conflict, I refer to the work that I do, rather than conflict resolution, as like a conflict intervention.
(24:37):
Yeah.
Because may not be as simpleas resolving a conflict.
Right?
conflict resolution, like, conjures upto me this idea of, like, picking a side.
That someone
being in court.
Yeah.
Yes!
Right, that someone is right,that someone's to blame.
And, in reality, that'snot, like, serving a team.
(25:03):
person who's labeled as wrong isliterally going to leave their job.
And they're probably somebody you reallydon't want to have leave their job.
Right?
And so, we need an intervention tofigure out what that root cause of the conflict is, which is usually emotions, and misinterpretation, and lack of expectations, and, what have you, because we all want to be good at our jobs.
(25:30):
We all want to do good work, evenif we are quote unquote don't care about work and just are kind of there for a paycheck, we still generally want to do our job well.
You
you never really went in like thatanyway, I think you probably never just signed up to start work in an organization to just draw a paycheck.
you went in to make a contributionand maybe you got in there and realized, okay, well, this isn't really where I want to be.
(25:55):
But suddenly you can't leavethe money and whatever.
There are so many reasons and it'soften hard to find something else.
And you might just think,well, this is life as well.
But I think the other thing, Casey, is.
the language that we use to talkabout emotions and how we talk about emotions, because I would say that many of us in particularly my generation, and Casey reminded me how old I was before we started recording, I'm only joking Casey, but particularly my generation, we weren't, we didn't really develop the language to talk about our emotions as such.
(26:33):
And it was, happy, sad, glad, mad.
Those kind of ones that rhyme and, butactually being able to articulate what it is you are going through, whether that's good or not so good, gives you a language to explain the situation to somebody else who can then interpret it, ask you more about it, and then it's manageable.
(27:00):
Mm
But if everything is fine or okay.
You're not really giving any,we're back to information, but information is also useful.
Yes!
It is useful!
one of the things I'm reallypassionate about are words, and I've had so many realizations.
of the power of words, and the powerof words also to misdirect someone.
(27:25):
and I'm finding that in the Englishlanguage, we are collapsing meaning from a variety of different words into less vocabulary in general.
And, and that means that the wordfine, has now a myriad of definitions.
So how are we supposed to understand eachother using words that are ineffective?
(27:48):
And that's another reason why Ibring in the theater work that I do, because we don't use words.
We use our physicality, our bodies, ourfacial expressions to create an image.
And that image, An imageis worth a thousand words.
That image evokes a story.
It evokes lots of differentwords that can describe it.
(28:11):
And when we all do that together,we realize that our emotional reaction to thing or something or our emotional, Landscape is actually not that different from each other.
It may not be the same, which isokay, but it's not that different.
We can see similarities and we canappreciate how the diversity of our identities or the diversity of our experience doesn't make our emotional experience that much different sometimes.
(28:42):
Right?
And I don't mean to, like, papoo,people's, identities and, their hardships or what have you, but it's that, because we always talk about empathy and, like, wanting to step into people's shoes, and we literally do that in the work that I do,
but we can just start to recognize andnotice, hey, I've felt that before.
(29:03):
I don't have to know wherethat comes from for you.
I don't have to have felt likeit in that specific circumstance, but I can understand that feeling and what that feeling is going to do to me in the workplace.
And I can now have empathyfor you and I can now approach You as more of a human, right?
(29:27):
That's it, isn't it?
It nearly always comes back to ourcommon humanity, seeing the human.
And I suppose particularly if we'rein technical teams and technical type organizations as well, and, like you said, the technology, we'll share very common language about all of that stuff that we do.
(29:54):
And yet.
We may not be able to speak toeach other in common language about our teamwork, for example.
Exactly.
We're not right.
And that again, miscommunication,lack of expectations.
We assume people have thecontext that we have, right?
(30:16):
But in reality, we're allhyper focused on ourselves.
We can literally only seethings the way that we see them.
And the only way we can start to see themdifferently is by having conversation with people, getting to know them, And being willing to let go of that the only way to see something is our way, still get the same results from different actions.
(30:49):
And, as leaders who are oftenpreviously top performers in those same roles that you're now leading, you got to that top performance through a specific set of actions.
So therefore, if your actions gotthe results, there's this assumption that your actions are correct, right?
(31:12):
And that there's a lot ofdifferent actions that could be taken to get the same results.
Which brings me right back to theOlympics again, because I remember some of the, I think it was swimmers and maybe track people saying, that years ago, a coach would have trained them how they ran and how they swam.
(31:39):
And it kind of took a revolutionin sports to be able to say, well actually, this is my race.
I'm going to run it my way,or I'm going to train my way.
And of course, yes, the fundamentalswill remain the same, but the actual person running or swimming is the person within their own skin and they have to be able to figure it out for themselves.
(32:04):
And I think we underestimate or underminethat in, with people all the time because we think, well, we figured it out.
This is the best way.
Right.
Absolutely.
My way or the highway?
right.
there's so many people out there thatare giving you checklists of how to be the best leader or, especially like as business owners ourselves, right?
(32:30):
How to have a successful six figures,seven figure, whatever business.
and they're all teaching what they did.
And what they did is notnecessarily right for you.
And it's not the only path.
we see that throughout history.
Where, people of all differentshapes and sizes and kinds and backgrounds have had outsized success.
(32:53):
I often really like, probablybecause I'm an artist, in addition to being a business person, I often love the stories of, famous actors who only started acting at like 40.
Or something, it's always reallyshocking it but there's something really empowering with that that we all can learn and do something new.
(33:14):
And we're not just thissingular entity with.
Only one passion and strength,
Absolutely, and you remind me so much ofwriting there, Katie, as you're talking about it, because I never saw myself as someone who I wanted to write, but I never had that identity of a writer.
(33:36):
And, I like Followed all ofthese people and listened to this person and that person.
At the end of the day, you justhave to sit down and write.
And that is how you become a writer.
You know what?
Word by word.
and you have to write as you.
Because if you're writingas someone else, it's, yeah.
(33:57):
And one of the best pieces of advice,which it is worth going out and seeing what other people are telling you.
But one of the best pieces of advice Iheard was, write your own experiences because nobody can argue with those.
And I think in a workplace, in a team andeverything, that's important too, that you always bring forward your experience.
(34:19):
It's maybe easier in a team toargue with it, but your experience is your experience and it's valid and it may make the team stronger.
It, it does.
I was having a really robust discussionrecently about, some of the gaps in thinking about DEI metrics, which DEI is a huge thing here in the United States.
(34:40):
and a lot of the metrics around,diversity, especially our headcount.
Right.
What percentage of people orhow many people do we have that represent, insert diverse identity?
And that is not the point.
the point is that diverseteams better, faster business decisions and are more profitable.
(35:11):
And the companies aremore financially stable.
But you only get those benefitsif those people stick around.
And if those people, aka everybody onyour team, contributes and feels like they can bring that whole self to work.
And so at the end of the day,inclusion is what it's all about.
(35:34):
And so I keep focusing with myclients, and the way I talk about everything on inclusionary behaviors.
What are the behaviors wetake to create inclusion?
Inclusion isn't just about opportunity.
It's not just about access.
It is about the way we are treatedday to day and how we get that message, of your status, how you, get greeted in the morning.
(36:00):
et cetera, et cetera.
It's those little bits.
That's why we leave jobs.
Yes, we wanna go get more pay,but we also leave jobs because we wanna be treated better.
Yeah, we want to belong.
We want to belong.
We want to feel like we belong.
We want to know that our opinion counts,that our voice counts, that we're seen and heard and that is absolutely inclusion.
(36:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Wow, Katie, we have run out of time,mainly because we talked for so long before we hit record ourselves.
I'm sorry.
We actually met 30 minutes earlier beforeour recording session so we could catch up and we still managed to overrun.
But anyway, Katie, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you on again, and I'm sure it isn't our last conversation, recorded or otherwise.
(36:46):
And for people who want to know moreabout you and the McLaughlin method, what is the best way of doing that?
come on over to McLaughlin method.comand, I have this new, free team health score quiz, which you can get at team health score quiz.com.
And just to start, jumpstarting your thinking around.
(37:08):
you know, those elements that leadto a healthy, productive team.
It'll take you less than three minutesto take, and then you can hop on a free call with me to get some more insights, on your specific results and some actions you could take, for your team.
Fantastic.
And I'll leave all ofthose in the show notes.
Katie, thank you so much for your energyand your presence in this conversation.
(37:32):
It was wonderful.
And I don't share the video, but Imight share a few clips because we even raised our arms, the two of
We did!
So thank you so much for,for being here again today.
Thank you so much for having me.
(37:53):
Thank
you for joining me today onlife, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(38:17):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Well, today I am absolutely delightedto welcome back Katie McLaughlin to a Life Beyond the Numbers.
Katie, you're so welcome.
Thank you so much for having me back.
I love chatting with you.
So Katie first was on Life Beyondthe Numbers on episode 104.
It's called Your Intention andit's definitely worth having a listen to if you haven't already.
(01:38):
And even if you have, goback and refresh yourself.
So today Katie and I are going totalk about something that is the cornerstone of every organization.
And I love that you say that, Katie.
What brought you to that realization?
Well, ultimately the teams ishow we, first of all, okay.
(02:03):
It's how we're organizingourselves, right?
We're all part of some kind of team,whether that's, the broad team of our organization, or our department and our, people we work with every day.
And teams are the biggest source ofour inspiration, our brainstorming, our innovation, and the strife and challenge and interpersonal stuff.
(02:29):
and especially for leaders, because Iwork with a lot of leaders in addition to working with their teams, for leaders, the team culture and the team environment is the place you have the most control over.
You may not have control over how manypeople are on your team, what you have from a resource perspective to reward your team or pay them or fairly or what have you, you may be working in a structure in your company that is not aligned with the leader and the team culture that you want to create, but.
(03:03):
You have control, of your team andso much of what I talk about and what I teach in how, we show up in the workplace and, engage with each other is focusing first on what you can control.
And, and so that is very empoweringand, and really gives us some freedom, to make change and to create the workplace of our dreams.
(03:26):
I feel like part of ourdreams, the dream team.
Yes, right, we talk about the Dream Teamall the time, especially in the workplace, and, one of the companies I worked for had, this little hashtag that they, came up with, which was hashtag one team, and it was a really great banner, now I don't
think that company was actually reallygood at, fulfilling on that promise, but it did become this like really rallying cry and this reminder that as individual teams, we are part of one team.
(03:59):
And so there's a lot of work andrichness to that on, building a stronger organization as one team too.
And I think, well, the Olympics havejust been on, and I don't know if you caught much of what was happening, but I just love The, relays, right?
So the teams, so whatever aboutbasketball and football and netball and all of those fine, but actually the relay teams in the pool and on the track, that is pure teamwork in a way that they rely so much on one another.
(04:35):
I just think if we had that attitudein our own teams, in an organization, we're always going to win.
Trying to make sure thatwe don't let people down.
Yes, yes.
And like, I'm so glad you broughtthat up because the relay concept and I specifically think about, swimming, because I watch a lot of the swimming events.
there's usually four people, I think, ona relay, and they're all put in the order or in the stroke that is their strength.
(05:04):
And and they're not beingasked to do something that's not in their strength, right?
Maybe when they're training, right?
They're gonna be asked to stretchthemselves and all of that, which is, you know, we often focus on that in the workplace, right?
Of working on your opportunitiesor your weaknesses or blind spots.
But in reality, Like, we all want tolean into our strengths, our secret sauce, our highest and best good, a leader once, used that phrase with me.
(05:31):
our strengths are partof what lights us up.
It helps us to feel successful so we canthen step into places of challenge, of opportunity, of stretching ourselves.
We can't live in that stretching place.
No, and we also want to set it up sowhoever comes after us has the best start, which I think when we work in a team in an organization, we may hand over work to somebody in our team who they might have to pick up the pieces.
(06:02):
Which is like dropping therelay baton There's something about that energy, isn't there?
That rather than just trying to makeourselves look good in a team, we're also focused on the team performance,
Absolutely.
And, you know, I think about, especiallywith delegation, right, with leaders, and so much of the miscommunication that comes into the workplace, and often like our dissatisfaction maybe as leaders or as team members with the performance of somebody else is that we didn't do enough.
(06:35):
to hand it off to themin a strong way, right?
Maybe we didn't have clear expectations,we didn't give them the resources, or, even just like sometimes like the links, like the artifacts, right, that they need.
we just make these assumptionsthat they just know that.
But if we haven't set themup for success, then how are they supposed to start strong?
(06:56):
which then, like you said,miscommunication, but also conflict
Yes.
and conflict in teams.
I mean whatever about the widerorganization and being annoyed with that department or that team and so on, but within a team can be particularly disruptive I think.
So what can you do tohelp teams dig into this?
(07:24):
Well, so, first of all, Our teams andour workplace should be having more fun,
when we're laughing when we're havinga good time, it makes it easier to bring up things that are a little bit more challenging, right, or to, feel like we can trust somebody so we can ask a question and feel Don't worry about, are they going to think that I'm dumb because I don't understand what they mean by something, right?
(07:53):
it provides us a chance to givepeople a little more grace and a little more consideration, too.
and so when I work with teams, I typicallywork in a kind of workshop format.
Call it training if you want.
call it team building if you want.
but it's really a workshop whereit's experiential learning process and, theater is my secret sauce that I brought into business.
(08:15):
That's, where I started my educationaljourney and then just have moved into the business world, and just leveraged all of those skills and strengths from there.
in the business world.
So I bring that back in through myworkshops to first cultivate that sense of fun and play, and get ourselves the chance to just be a little silly.
especially like if we'reon, our video call, right?
(08:38):
Like the, one of the first things I havepeople do is I'm like, lift your arms up.
We never lift our arms up.
in our video, right?
and, we start laughing, right?
We start smiling.
We're like, this is weird.
and then I, I bring us into someprogressively more, like, embodied work that has us think about, like, real scenarios in the workplace and how we really feel about them.
(09:01):
Because how we feel inthese different scenarios.
AKA our emotions, our emotions are drivingthe actions that we take in the workplace.
And so the actions that we take arethe things that are going to get us results, whether we like it or not.
And so looking at those results,which business leaders are looking at all the time, right?
(09:23):
We're always looking at those results.
Are we meeting our outcomes?
Are we meeting our metrics?
And if we're not getting those results,well, we're not taking the right actions.
And many times leaders arelooking at that, right?
Our teams are looking at that,but we're not looking at why we're not taking those right actions.
And we're not taking those rightactions that are going to lead to the results we want because of our emotions.
(09:47):
And so we have to be looking backat those emotions and what is the culture and the team environment doing?
To influence those emotions and whatdo we need to change, which oftentimes it's really small changes to change our emotions so that we can get to those actions and results we want.
(10:08):
Music to my ears,obviously, for many reasons.
So first of all, how do people reactwhen you tell them that emotions need to be tackled to change results or impact the actions that need to be taken to change results?
Completely.
there's people kind of all on aspectrum, right, of reactions, and I'm sure you see this in your own work, historically, culturally in business, we're like, emotions have no place in the workplace, and the more and more
(10:42):
that we continue to move and shift ourunderstanding of business to recognize that emotions and feelings are part of our whole selves, which our whole selves in the workplace has been a theme for a long time in culture.
And I say, especially in the likestartup and tech space, which kind of leads with that wanting people to be their whole selves.
(11:04):
but the idea of that isnot equaling action, right?
We can't just talk.
We have to follow that up with action.
And so it's that connection betweenemotions and action that I'm finding people are not by default understanding.
And that's why I talk about it so much,and that's why I use it very action based experiential exercises from theater to help us literally see and feel those emotions, in a non traumatizing, safe, non performative way, so we can see, right?
(11:45):
Well, if I'm in this space,what actions am I going to take?
And are those actions goingto get me the results?
Thank you.
That I want, maybe, as a, person in theworkplace, or that my boss wants, right, so I can keep my job, and, and so it, it, usually that really helps people to kind of jumpstart that process, but, yeah, and just that whole follow through of knowing versus action, knowing versus doing, is a place where I'm not seeing enough,
(12:18):
It's the, the cognitiveversus the embodied, isn't it?
I think we can intellectually graspa lot of this stuff quite often.
But whether it translates into the actionyou're talking about is a whole other
whole other conversation because we'reused to learning things off by heart in school or just learning to pass exams and not actually immersing ourselves into the knowledge and living and breathing it.
(12:51):
And I think it takes a whilefor us to understand that just knowledge isn't everything.
Yeah, absolutely.
I often talk about going beyond theory.
And into action, right?
You can be studying, all of these things,we were talking earlier about how the brain, like, kind of influences things and we can learn how the brain works.
(13:17):
And that can be interesting, andI talk about it a lot because I think it's fascinating, and I do think it's really informative.
but without knowing what to dowith that information, how to apply it, is just knowledge.
Like, the smartest scholars outthere wouldn't be the best operators.
(13:41):
in business.
And I don't mean that to be like,say that we shouldn't have them.
We need them.
We need this well rounded society thathas people focused on different things.
but we assume that knowledge equalsaction and it really doesn't.
back to swimming, but you cannot learnto swim unless you get in the water.
I mean, you just can't.
(14:02):
And yet, yet we think that we can controlour results without using our emotions.
And that is, I think it's fundamentallychanging how we're going to interact and work with each other as time goes on, but at the moment we're stuck almost in this gray area of is it really true that I can be emotional at work?
(14:34):
Is it really true that emotionsinfluence action or can I just
Mm.
way out of this?
Yes.
I spent a lot of my career inthe, like, tech and startup space, and I know a number of founders, they are so hyper-focused on the sustainability of my company, right?
And getting funding, getting customers,like looking at the broader numbers.
(14:57):
Are we able to get toprofitability and all of that.
And so their emotions, right,are frenzied and stressed.
And when we're in that frenziedand stressed space, our actions are going to be informed by that, right?
(15:18):
Our actions include thingslike snapping at people.
And, maybe not being intentionalwith how we ask questions like, What's the status of this thing?
And you can ask that in a waythat is very approachable.
And sometimes it's just tone.
But tone is lost when we're in thisremote first work world, right?
a quick, instant message at work, right,using whatever platform you use, of, you know, I need a status update of blah, like can send somebody into a tailspin of, oh my god, I'm going to lose my job and, it's not good enough and, what are they expecting from me when in reality that leader is just literally wanting to know, like, are things on track?
(15:59):
Do you need my help?
Right?
we forget that we impact other people.
And so, it's just we have to be reallythinking about how our actions are also getting interpreted because they're getting put into somebody else's emotion action result, like, cycle.
(16:21):
And we can't control other people.
But those founders, those, Clevel executives, they aren't necessarily cultivating enough space for themselves to be aware.
of how their actions aren't necessarilygetting the results that they need to put people in the place where their emotions can drive the actions and results that the leader's looking for,
(16:49):
it's like a Catch 22 in a way, isn't it?
And I, because space, time are the thingsthat you require to slow down, to actually feel your feet, to listen for the quiet voice inside, whatever it is, there's so many ways, but allowing yourself that almost Luxury, I think is what people think it is, rather than seeing that as
(17:20):
a necessity that will get you off yourhamster wheel So I suppose I'm thinking, Katie, is there something really simple that people can do just to notice a difference and, and notice, ooh, my emotions are here in this room with me, or if I slow down, ooh, this is what happens.
(17:43):
hmm.
Absolutely.
The first thing that Irecommend is taking a breath.
Like, we can all do that.
It takes just a fewseconds, not even, right?
and by taking a single breath.
It is enough.
It's ridiculous, the power of thebreath, and people that are much more entrenched in that world can speak, more intelligently about why.
(18:07):
But if you just take a single breath,and I invite anybody who's listening to this, I'm gonna do it, take a breath,
and just that gives you a moment to stopyour brain, the adrenaline that is running out of control, it gives it a moment for that like rational brain to click back in so we can have this connection between our rational brain, our emotional brain, and then we can make a choice.
(18:40):
Because how we interactwith people is a choice.
And we don't see it like that.
We just rely so much on our defaults.
And so, part of how I do this inmy workshops, through the theater exercises, is I have people, create images of, you know, their kind of immediate response to something.
like a business scenario,a conflict, what have you.
(19:02):
and they create an image of that.
and then we go through theemotions, actions, results.
And then I have them create a differentimage of how do you want to show up?
In that scenario, in order to get theactions and results that you need and recognizing that it is possible to choose, but we have to give ourselves that space and also that awareness that we can write that we aren't, first of all, that we're not choosing that our defaults maybe aren't doing what we need and that we can choose something different that can get us closer to those results we want.
(19:42):
Which I love because it also then feedsinto taking personal responsibility for your emotions, actions and results.
And okay, we talked about team and ofcourse you're going to be part of a team, but also if the results of the team are not where you'd like them to be, being able to say, well, what's my role in this?
(20:08):
Thanks.
Or how are my emotions and actionsimpacting the results is a choice, and maybe not one people often choose.
Right.
we don't know that we're doing it.
Right?
You know, and I've always comefrom the perspective of assuming that nobody wants to be a jerk.
(20:33):
No,
wants to be a bad boss.
If somebody out there is listeningand wants to, like, can we talk?
Because I just want toknow what that's like.
you know, nobody does.
We often are.
And we have to have a certainlevel of humility to understand that, like, nobody's perfect, and we all have work to do, and that doesn't make us a bad person, right?
(21:02):
If you're listening to this podcast oryou've, watched anything, you're making any kind of investment in improving yourself, especially in the workplace, as a leader, as a, as a professional, you're already starting down that process.
Right?
And now it's like, okay, so what areyou going to do with that knowledge?
(21:23):
And that leap from knowledgeto action is not easy.
And that's why people like you and Iexist, and why we're doing the work that we do, is because we've kind of figured out how to help people do that.
And it's okay to ask for help.
Right?
There's where that humility piececomes in, that asking for help is okay.
(21:43):
if you think about it, like youwant your people to tell you that they need help because that's what you're there for, right?
As a leader, as a team member, youknow, if we didn't need each other in the workplace, we wouldn't have teams.
no, we could just do everything alone.
And it's also sometimes you need theoutsider, outside of a team to come in and help you see that perhaps you're going round in circles.
(22:14):
Or, yeah, there's thatdifferent perspective.
And I think as well, the situationsthat we have in the workplaces now, or the way the world is, is increasingly complex and uncertain.
And actually, in that environmentas well, having an outsider makes a huge difference.
(22:37):
Just, I think the thing about it is,is we have this idea perhaps of you and I coming in and telling people how to do things, which is absolutely not what, well, I can't speak for you, but I can certainly speak for myself.
And I can imagine that that's not.
And I think what we don't know is that.
(22:57):
the facilitation that happens orthe work in the workshop is people seeing themselves differently and being able to choose, like you say, a different way of acting or behaving.
Totally.
If we didn't value an outside likeopinion, we wouldn't buy a business book.
Right?
We wouldn't be listening to a podcast.
We wouldn't be watching a video ortaking a course or any of those things.
(23:22):
Right?
And, you know, but we don't alwaysmake the leap to how, like, bringing someone in for a short period of time even, can get us, like, just out of whatever rut we might be in.
You know, we do the same thing every day,often, without really that chance to get a fresh perspective and, think outside the box, move outside the box, you know?
(23:45):
yeah, it's really important,
Yeah, that's a great way oflooking at actually that you can be listening to something for the help.
You can read it, but that's back to theknowledge again, and it's actually putting stuff into practice that It may be really hard to challenge your boss, for example, and say, Hey, our team could be better.
(24:10):
We could do things a bitdifferently around here.
and to do that, we're going to needsomeone else's intervention as such.
right?
Yeah, I often, especially when I'mworking with a team who, has gone through some big change recently or is kind of actively dealing with some conflict, I refer to the work that I do, rather than conflict resolution, as like a conflict intervention.
(24:37):
Yeah.
Because may not be as simpleas resolving a conflict.
Right?
conflict resolution, like, conjures upto me this idea of, like, picking a side.
That someone
being in court.
Yeah.
Yes!
Right, that someone is right,that someone's to blame.
And, in reality, that'snot, like, serving a team.
(25:03):
person who's labeled as wrong isliterally going to leave their job.
And they're probably somebody you reallydon't want to have leave their job.
Right?
And so, we need an intervention tofigure out what that root cause of the conflict is, which is usually emotions, and misinterpretation, and lack of expectations, and, what have you, because we all want to be good at our jobs.
(25:30):
We all want to do good work, evenif we are quote unquote don't care about work and just are kind of there for a paycheck, we still generally want to do our job well.
You
you never really went in like thatanyway, I think you probably never just signed up to start work in an organization to just draw a paycheck.
you went in to make a contributionand maybe you got in there and realized, okay, well, this isn't really where I want to be.
(25:55):
But suddenly you can't leavethe money and whatever.
There are so many reasons and it'soften hard to find something else.
And you might just think,well, this is life as well.
But I think the other thing, Casey, is.
the language that we use to talkabout emotions and how we talk about emotions, because I would say that many of us in particularly my generation, and Casey reminded me how old I was before we started recording, I'm only joking Casey, but particularly my generation, we weren't, we didn't really develop the language to talk about our emotions as such.
(26:33):
And it was, happy, sad, glad, mad.
Those kind of ones that rhyme and, butactually being able to articulate what it is you are going through, whether that's good or not so good, gives you a language to explain the situation to somebody else who can then interpret it, ask you more about it, and then it's manageable.
(27:00):
Mm
But if everything is fine or okay.
You're not really giving any,we're back to information, but information is also useful.
Yes!
It is useful!
one of the things I'm reallypassionate about are words, and I've had so many realizations.
of the power of words, and the powerof words also to misdirect someone.
(27:25):
and I'm finding that in the Englishlanguage, we are collapsing meaning from a variety of different words into less vocabulary in general.
And, and that means that the wordfine, has now a myriad of definitions.
So how are we supposed to understand eachother using words that are ineffective?
(27:48):
And that's another reason why Ibring in the theater work that I do, because we don't use words.
We use our physicality, our bodies, ourfacial expressions to create an image.
And that image, An imageis worth a thousand words.
That image evokes a story.
It evokes lots of differentwords that can describe it.
(28:11):
And when we all do that together,we realize that our emotional reaction to thing or something or our emotional, Landscape is actually not that different from each other.
It may not be the same, which isokay, but it's not that different.
We can see similarities and we canappreciate how the diversity of our identities or the diversity of our experience doesn't make our emotional experience that much different sometimes.
(28:42):
Right?
And I don't mean to, like, papoo,people's, identities and, their hardships or what have you, but it's that, because we always talk about empathy and, like, wanting to step into people's shoes, and we literally do that in the work that I do,
but we can just start to recognize andnotice, hey, I've felt that before.
(29:03):
I don't have to know wherethat comes from for you.
I don't have to have felt likeit in that specific circumstance, but I can understand that feeling and what that feeling is going to do to me in the workplace.
And I can now have empathyfor you and I can now approach You as more of a human, right?
(29:27):
That's it, isn't it?
It nearly always comes back to ourcommon humanity, seeing the human.
And I suppose particularly if we'rein technical teams and technical type organizations as well, and, like you said, the technology, we'll share very common language about all of that stuff that we do.
(29:54):
And yet.
We may not be able to speak toeach other in common language about our teamwork, for example.
Exactly.
We're not right.
And that again, miscommunication,lack of expectations.
We assume people have thecontext that we have, right?
(30:16):
But in reality, we're allhyper focused on ourselves.
We can literally only seethings the way that we see them.
And the only way we can start to see themdifferently is by having conversation with people, getting to know them, And being willing to let go of that the only way to see something is our way, still get the same results from different actions.
(30:49):
And, as leaders who are oftenpreviously top performers in those same roles that you're now leading, you got to that top performance through a specific set of actions.
So therefore, if your actions gotthe results, there's this assumption that your actions are correct, right?
(31:12):
And that there's a lot ofdifferent actions that could be taken to get the same results.
Which brings me right back to theOlympics again, because I remember some of the, I think it was swimmers and maybe track people saying, that years ago, a coach would have trained them how they ran and how they swam.
(31:39):
And it kind of took a revolutionin sports to be able to say, well actually, this is my race.
I'm going to run it my way,or I'm going to train my way.
And of course, yes, the fundamentalswill remain the same, but the actual person running or swimming is the person within their own skin and they have to be able to figure it out for themselves.
(32:04):
And I think we underestimate or underminethat in, with people all the time because we think, well, we figured it out.
This is the best way.
Right.
Absolutely.
My way or the highway?
right.
there's so many people out there thatare giving you checklists of how to be the best leader or, especially like as business owners ourselves, right?
(32:30):
How to have a successful six figures,seven figure, whatever business.
and they're all teaching what they did.
And what they did is notnecessarily right for you.
And it's not the only path.
we see that throughout history.
Where, people of all differentshapes and sizes and kinds and backgrounds have had outsized success.
(32:53):
I often really like, probablybecause I'm an artist, in addition to being a business person, I often love the stories of, famous actors who only started acting at like 40.
Or something, it's always reallyshocking it but there's something really empowering with that that we all can learn and do something new.
(33:14):
And we're not just thissingular entity with.
Only one passion and strength,
Absolutely, and you remind me so much ofwriting there, Katie, as you're talking about it, because I never saw myself as someone who I wanted to write, but I never had that identity of a writer.
(33:36):
And, I like Followed all ofthese people and listened to this person and that person.
At the end of the day, you justhave to sit down and write.
And that is how you become a writer.
You know what?
Word by word.
and you have to write as you.
Because if you're writingas someone else, it's, yeah.
(33:57):
And one of the best pieces of advice,which it is worth going out and seeing what other people are telling you.
But one of the best pieces of advice Iheard was, write your own experiences because nobody can argue with those.
And I think in a workplace, in a team andeverything, that's important too, that you always bring forward your experience.
(34:19):
It's maybe easier in a team toargue with it, but your experience is your experience and it's valid and it may make the team stronger.
It, it does.
I was having a really robust discussionrecently about, some of the gaps in thinking about DEI metrics, which DEI is a huge thing here in the United States.
(34:40):
and a lot of the metrics around,diversity, especially our headcount.
Right.
What percentage of people orhow many people do we have that represent, insert diverse identity?
And that is not the point.
the point is that diverseteams better, faster business decisions and are more profitable.
(35:11):
And the companies aremore financially stable.
But you only get those benefitsif those people stick around.
And if those people, aka everybody onyour team, contributes and feels like they can bring that whole self to work.
And so at the end of the day,inclusion is what it's all about.
(35:34):
And so I keep focusing with myclients, and the way I talk about everything on inclusionary behaviors.
What are the behaviors wetake to create inclusion?
Inclusion isn't just about opportunity.
It's not just about access.
It is about the way we are treatedday to day and how we get that message, of your status, how you, get greeted in the morning.
(36:00):
et cetera, et cetera.
It's those little bits.
That's why we leave jobs.
Yes, we wanna go get more pay,but we also leave jobs because we wanna be treated better.
Yeah, we want to belong.
We want to belong.
We want to feel like we belong.
We want to know that our opinion counts,that our voice counts, that we're seen and heard and that is absolutely inclusion.
(36:22):
Mm-Hmm.
Wow, Katie, we have run out of time,mainly because we talked for so long before we hit record ourselves.
I'm sorry.
We actually met 30 minutes earlier beforeour recording session so we could catch up and we still managed to overrun.
But anyway, Katie, it's been anabsolute pleasure having you on again, and I'm sure it isn't our last conversation, recorded or otherwise.
(36:46):
And for people who want to know moreabout you and the McLaughlin method, what is the best way of doing that?
come on over to McLaughlin method.comand, I have this new, free team health score quiz, which you can get at team health score quiz.com.
And just to start, jumpstarting your thinking around.
(37:08):
you know, those elements that leadto a healthy, productive team.
It'll take you less than three minutesto take, and then you can hop on a free call with me to get some more insights, on your specific results and some actions you could take, for your team.
Fantastic.
And I'll leave all ofthose in the show notes.
Katie, thank you so much for your energyand your presence in this conversation.
(37:32):
It was wonderful.
And I don't share the video, but Imight share a few clips because we even raised our arms, the two of
We did!
So thank you so much for,for being here again today.
Thank you so much for having me.
(37:53):
Thank
you for joining me today onlife, beyond the numbers.
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(38:17):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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