January 18, 2025 • 43 mins
"I was completely transfixed by the idea of these very tiny teapots and these tiny tea cups that were serving small amounts of tea." James Thirlwall
James Thirlwall and I explore the connection between tea and creating connection. I venture out of my usual space to record in a delightful and intimate setting: a tiny teahouse in East Oxford. We delve into the world of Japanese tea ceremonies as well as discover how Chinese tea ceremonies cultivate mindfulness and bring people together in a shared, intentional experience. James, who jokingly describes himself as 'a big man in a tiny teahouse', takes us through his journey from living in Japan, his interest in Buddhism and practicing Chinese medicine to opening his tiny teahouse. He shares insights about creating a space that encourages connection and reflection, the role of sensory experiences in evoking memories and emotions and how tea can foster better workplace dynamics. James Thirlwall is a tea lover, former acupuncturist, UKTA certified tea sommelier and educator who uses tea to bring people together. tinyteahouse events are designed to promote fellowship, harmony and inclusion - the values of a traditional Asian tea house culture. James has been working in hospitality for the last 5+ years and works with Michelin star chefs, 5-star hotels and some of the best hotels in Europe.
Connect with James
Through his tinyteahouse website and on instagram
Resources Mentioned
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24262686.oxford-borough-among-coolest-neighbourhoods-uk/
Leading Beyond the Numbers by Susan Ní Chríodáin
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Hello.
And welcome to episode 194 allhave a life beyond the numbers.
And this episode is going outon Saturday, January 18th.
And if you're at home while you'relistening to this episode, I recommend that you make yourself a cup of tea.
(01:40):
This episode was actuallyrecorded in a tea house.
And that is the reason I'm speakingat the beginning of the episode.
Because the sound quality is variable.
It isn't the same as if I was here.
And my office and my guest wasalso in front of a microphone.
(02:05):
We did share a microphone.
Okay, but there is avariability in the sound.
You may need to adjust the volume.
A little bit.
And I apologize in advanceif that interrupts.
The listening experience.
It is a wonderful episode.
(02:28):
And I took so much joyfrom listening back to it.
And that's all.
Thank you to my wonderful guest.
James thorough alone.
And now.
I'll leave you to the episode.
Hello and welcome toLife Beyond the Numbers.
Well, today I am delighted tobe joined by James Thirlwall.
(02:50):
James, you're most welcometo Life Beyond the Numbers.
Thank you very much.
Now, I am out and about today, somethingI've never done on this podcast before, and I'm sitting in a tiny tea house.
I'm not going to say any moreabout that for now, because we will explore why I'm here later.
(03:12):
But actually, let's just startwith maybe talking a little bit about the Tiny Tea House.
is probably the best way to start
yes.
So we're in, my tiny teahouse, in East Stocks, Oxford.
And yeah, the tea house is on theMalin Road, which is, for people that dunno, Oxford, it's kind of a, a busy, bustling, funky part of town.
(03:36):
I think the.
Daily Telegraph had it as the13th coolest neighborhood in the UK, which is a great accolade.
And we are nestled within a yoga studio,called the Everybody Yoga Studio, so everybody's welcome at the yoga studio, and everybody's welcome at the tea house,
Very cool.
(03:57):
And the 13th.
I mean, yes, a lot of people would saythat was an unlucky number, but I don't agree because I was born on the 13th.
I feel good about that.
But tea.
Why tea?
Now, I do not like tea.
In fact, I was just telling Jameswhen I arrived in that even the smell of tea can make me feel a bit ill.
(04:17):
But I am drinking a lovelylemon verbena tea here.
But where did this come from,James, your love of tea?
it's a long story, whichI'll try and make shortish.
so I used to live in Japan.
I spent some time in Japan afterI graduated from university.
And then I went to live in Japan.
And then when I came back from Japan,I became interested in, Buddhism, because I'd spent a lot of time at a Buddhist, temple with a Buddhist priestess who was kind of a badass.
(04:45):
Actually, she had, as a Japanesewoman, she had, She had divorced and decided that she wanted to go into the priesthood, and so we used to spend a lot of time together.
And, anyway, so I returned to the UK,became interested in Buddhism, then trained in acupuncture, became a Chinese medicine practitioner for a while.
for a decade actually, in fact.
And along that journey, I becamereally interested, I went to my first tea ceremony, a Chinese tea ceremony.
(05:09):
And it was run by a friend of mine.
And I was completely transfixed bythe idea of this, these very tiny teapots and these tiny tea cups that were serving small amounts of tea.
And you had this chance to reallyconnect with the experience of sharing tea with other people.
(05:30):
You had the opportunity to reallyappreciate the tea because it was in these small little cups and everything about it.
I fell in love with, I should say thatI am, For listeners, I'm six foot five.
So, I kind of joke that I'm a big manin a tiny teahouse Because there's space in the teahouse for three people at most really, including myself
and so Yeah, I took that idea of Chinesetea ceremony and we do tea ceremonies here, tea tastings kind of using that format so instead of having a big mug of tea, which I'm not averse to, we have small pots of tea with small teacups and instead of one big pot of tea and
(06:11):
you have one mug each, we drink lotsof little rounds of tea, so it's a very sociable thing, it's a nice way to connect with people, and so that was what I fell in love with and so that's kind of how the idea for the tea house came about.
Wow.
I mean there's a lot in there.
Yes.
So.
There is.
There is.
you talked about living in Japanand then studying Chinese medicine.
(06:34):
Where was the connectionbetween China and Japan?
Yeah, good question.
that was more logistical.
I became interested in, so first, I thinkfirst I became interested in Buddhism.
and then through that, I started lookingaround when I was coming back to the UK.
so I come from a medical family.
My dad's a doctor, my mum's I spenta lot of time working in hospitals.
(06:56):
through my university.
I paid my university, kind oftopped up through university with working in hospitals.
I'd worked at Stoke MandevilleHospital, in the spinal unit years ago.
And so I had this interest andI was thinking about coming back to the UK to train as a doctor.
and I think I, Probably underestimatedhow difficult that would be.
And also, I think the reasons whyI was choosing to do that were not necessarily always my own.
(07:21):
and, yeah, I had been exposed tosomething new, so I came back and studied Buddhism, not formally, but informally with different groups in London.
And then I discovered acupuncture.
I went for acupuncture one day.
it was in North London somewhere.
And I lay down on the couch and somebodyput a needle in the middle of my forehead.
(07:41):
And I had this kind of bizarreexperience, almost like an out of body experience, where I was so relaxed, I probably wasn't sure or wasn't aware of how stressed I was at that point.
And then suddenly thisamazing feeling came over me.
And I remember walking out ofthere, walking down the road.
(08:02):
It was in Finchley, that was it.
And I stood at the tube stop and Iwatched about five trains go past because I didn't want to get on one.
I thought there's no way I canbe around people right now.
It was like being stoned.
And, I thought great because I'd beenstoned before and, this felt like an expensive way to get stoned, I must say.
But it was, healthier.
(08:23):
It was healthier, yeah.
So I guess in the same way asthe tea, it just hooked me.
And so that was my firstintroduction to Chinese medicine.
I looked into it and I looked at studyingin Japan and obviously, there's Japanese acupuncture and Japanese, medicine.
But the availability to be ableto study that or the access to that is you need to have fluent Japanese, you need to live in Japan.
(08:45):
There weren't any schools teaching outsideof Japan that I could access really.
whereas in the UK it was much easier.
So there was, a number of schools.
There was one in London,there was one in Leamington.
There was one in Bristol, and then I choseone in Reading, which was closer to home and just felt like the right fit, really.
And so then I became an acupuncturist,took three years, and then, yeah, had a clinic in Oxford I worked in London a little bit, worked in the Cotswolds, but mostly acupuncture.
(09:15):
And then I did that for,yeah, about 10 or 12 years.
Wow.
And.
A Chinese tea ceremony is somethingI've never heard of before I met you and James and I funnily enough met in a coffee shop randomly one day and here we are now in a tea house.
But I'd never heard abouta Chinese tea ceremony.
(09:36):
I'd certainly been awareof a Japanese tea ceremony.
And so I'm also curious about thedifference between both of those because people might not know what either is even.
Yeah.
so maybe the Japanese tea ceremony is agood place to start because I think more people are aware of that or have some kind of notion of it, so, and again, I wouldn't say I'm an expert in this, but I have had enough exposure to talk about it.
(10:03):
the style of tea in the Japanese teaceremony, there are various ones, but I think the one that's the most known to people is where you have matcha, which is a, which is ground into a powder.
And there is a formal ceremonyaround preparing, boiling the water, preparing the tea, whisking the tea.
(10:26):
So it's, you have a bamboo whisk,which looks, I would say it's like the size and shape of a shaving brush, but it's made out of these bamboo fronds.
It's actually one piece of bamboo that'ssplit into many, many different, bristles.
and then that is then used towhip the tea, and it is served in a very, prescribed, formal way.
(10:46):
and So the tea is served toguests, and guests are often in a teahouse, so traditionally you'd be on your knees in a teahouse.
and you'd be served withtraditional Japanese sweets.
And so, it's very formal, and I thinkwithin the form, as with all things, it's a bit like, anything that you learn which has a kind of a classical form to it you learn the classical form first and then your kind of creative expression emerges from that.
(11:15):
And so I'm not a practitioner of thatstyle but I have seen it and I know lots of people that really enjoy the tea ceremony for that aspect the continued practice of a ritual over and over again.
And so it's a beautiful thing to observeThe principle of it is hospitality and care for your guests and that includes things like the way that the different guests in the tea room are spoken to, the way that they're seated, the order in which they're served.
(11:50):
There will be a scroll of calligraphy ora painting that's relevant to the season that'll be hanging in the tea house.
There'll be a flower arrangementthat's relevant to the tea, or that links to the season.
So all of these things are thoughtabout, the kimono or the clothing of the person that's serving, will also be, relevant and the tea and the sweets and the teaware and everything about this will be thought of to such a degree that it's seen as the kind of ultimate expression of hospitality I think.
(12:20):
and so that's the Japanese tea ceremony.
It has its roots in Zen Buddhism.
and so there are many schools in JapanI hope I can say this without being offensive to anybody, but I would say that the Japanese tea ceremony is about 99% ceremony and about 1% tea.
(12:42):
So it's all about the tea in some ways,but it's also about the utensils and the order and the way that things are presented and it's such a performance that you are able to appreciate it as a a thing in and of itself.
It's a thing of beauty.
`It's like a piece of art.
It's a piece of art,
exactly.
and it's seen across the worldand it's been changed, and become more kind of contemporary and evolved in different ways.
(13:04):
And there are kind of movementsactually, if you look online now for people taking that tradition and completely not subverting it, but changing it into a way which is more more than an accessible, but.
you know, which would I'm sure angerthe purists, but also, with all of these things it has the possibility of becoming a dying art or just eating itself with, with its own dogma.
(13:29):
And so people are trying to, change that.
I'm not one of those people,but I'm aware of that.
so that's the Japanese tea ceremony.
And then the Chinese tea ceremony,I'd like to say it's probably 90, 99 percent tea and 1 percent ceremony.
There are ceremonial aspects to it.
and again there are differentforms, but like a lot of Chinese cultural arts, so things like calligraphy or tai chi or tea is one.
(13:56):
there is this kind of notion of flow.
And so, this constant sense of flow,and so that flow is the flowing of the tea, is the flowing of the water.
And it's messy, you pour water ontop of teapots, things splash around.
if you go to tea houses inChina, you'll find huge long, tea stages, these kind of tea pots.
tray is almost where you expectto make a mess, but it's the, when you actually tune into it, it's not messy, it's deliberate mess.
(14:22):
And you can see that the movementsof the person that's serving the tea are very deliberate and refined and well practiced, but there's a sense of flow to them, which is really, fluid.
And it just gives this sort of senseof natural presence, I suppose.
and the same thing, so we'll bethere, so there'll be snacks, and tea, little bits of food that are.
Connect with the tea andconnect with the season.
(14:45):
same with flower arrangements andthe ornaments, within the space.
but the other thing is that there might bemany different teas that you would drink.
So it wouldn't be one style of tea.
It would be, you might have a, you mightstart with one particular tea, like a wine tasting, if you think about it like that.
with a wine tasting, you might startwith a light white wine and then you might get onto heavier reds.
And then you might end up.
(15:06):
I don't know, I mightend up falling asleep.
Yes, drunk!
But there's that kind of progression,and so there is that possibility for you drink that tea, you enjoy that together, and you might just stop, or it might be that you end up talking to each other and sharing conversations and so on.
And so in a way, it feels much morefluid, much more relaxed, and to me I think that was what I enjoyed about it.
(15:30):
And you can take it to differentlevels, it can be very sociable, it can be very reflective.
and I think because I've practiced thatagain, not through formal training, but just kind of picked up on that, the thing that I love about it is that it is an act of hospitality, but it's also a real, an active connection.
And so if you have a group of friendsthat are drinking tea together, It might be at some point that the person serving tea switches out and somebody else wants to sit there and serve, you know, so everybody gets a chance to make tea for the people.
(15:58):
So there's this lovely fluidityto it and the core idea is around, yeah, is around connection,
Yeah, which, like, I mean, sittinghere, I'm sitting here watching James explain all of this and there's such a flow and fluidity to how you explain it.
And it makes me want to drink teaone day, which is really interesting.
(16:23):
what I loved in your description, as youtalked about flow and fluidity, it's also.
I kept thinking flow of conversationand then you end by saying it's about connection and so is there something in that relaxed Chinese way less formal that also perhaps prompts or enables that flow of connection and conversation?
(16:50):
Yeah absolutely I think is builtfor that the tiny Tea House has a, what did you call it?
A tagline or mm-hmm . Kind of,and that is, connect with tea.
And so, and that can be different things.
It can be connected with theexperience of drinking tea and there can be a gastronomic element to it, sensory element to it.
There's, connected with yourself.
(17:10):
So when you slow down to pay attentionto things in the moment, then.
it's often surprising whatactually comes up, what emerges.
and then the other thing isconnecting with other people.
so in the tea house, there's spaceto connect with another person.
So you generally ask somebodyto invite a friend or partner or another tea lover here.
(17:32):
and three is a really nicenumber to, to create that,
intimate connection.
And then the other thingis, so with groups.
So.
by serving tea to other people, itacts as a, it's an act of hospitality.
and so I think that always laysthe ground for a better connection.
And I think when you're doing somethingwhere you're not distracted, and where you can give your full attention to something, and you feel like time has slowed down, then you have the opportunity to really connect with people and talk.
(18:06):
more open heartedly, more authentically,all of those things, and you know, those things feel in this day and age quite easy things to say, because it feels like those are the things that people want to hear, but I've had years and years and years of experience of this practice,
and if I don't do this practice, and notto say I'm addicted to it, I notice that this practice, like any other practice that we do in our life, if we have a ritual, meditation or going for a run or walking, whatever, all of those things.
(18:34):
Once you start to take those out or youstart to miss them because you realize they're a big foundation for your sense of happiness, your sense of self and your sense of connection with things.
and so this for me has just beenone of those ones that I just, Oh, this, that really makes sense to me.
and so that's why I started the teahouse was to share that with other people, because That's what it's given to me and, and that's not about me, that's about setting things up, creating the environment where people can feel relaxed, and coffee.
(19:04):
I was joking about coffee at thebeginning, because I love coffee shops and coffee shops are places where generally, they're very buzzy, you have great conversations in coffee shops, and, I will spend way too much money because the cakes are so nice.
And, But you also have grinders grindingand steam steaming and conversations on phones and laptops and things like that.
(19:28):
it creates a different kind of buzz.
It's a literal buzz.
Like I walk into a coffee shop andI was like, Oh, I feel energized, but not in a sense of, I don't feel resourced by going into a coffee shop.
I feel like I've had like a caffeine formy mind and my body and like a social snack almost, just to keep me going.
But if I want to have a,quieter conversation, then, you know, I generally turn to tea.
(19:51):
And I'm lucky enough to havethis space where I can invite people here, to, to do that.
My experience of teahouses in China isthat, and I also don't want to make a kind of a facsimile of a Chinese teahouse, that isn't the idea, I'm not Chinese, but it's the values of that, and the values are bringing people together in a kind of quiet, relaxed atmosphere, and, the idea to try and create an option for people I think is what I'm trying to do as well.
(20:17):
So yeah, if you want todrink coffee, that's great.
Sometimes you might not feellike being surrounded by all those people with all that noise.
And it's nice to have another option.
And in China, in Japan, in Taiwan,in Korea, you do have that option.
You can go to those places and that'sthe function that they have in, society and culture, I think, over there.
Yeah, it's fascinating because when Ithink of China, I've never been to China.
(20:39):
I've been to quite a few Asiancountries, but when I think of China, I never think of slowing down and quiet, because wherever you go in the world, there's a China town.
It's always hustle and bustle and so on.
And this is the absolute opposite.
But then again, the Asian culturefor me, I often think about slowing down, because Asian culture is like saying Western European culture.
(21:01):
I mean, it's a catch all, isn't it?
We're all very different.
But the idea of Asia always for meis much more spiritual, much more connection with myself and with people who seem to have time to talk to you and actually appreciate you as well.
So, James, the workplace mainly is myfocus and slowing down is something that you described it beautifully, I think, how things come up when we take time to slow down and be quiet.
(21:34):
And it's one of those, it's almostlike until you experience it, you don't really believe it because you believe that you need to just keep going and do more and do more.
But when you know.
You know, so I know that you bringtea to the workplace as well.
So maybe you could talk a little to that.
(21:55):
yeah, so
I was looking recently at some of theneeds, modern needs in the workplace.
And I think after the pandemic,the big one that comes up time and time again is connection.
So how people.
connect physically because you havethese situations where people are working from home or they're hybrid, and people aren't necessarily crossing over in the same way as they used to.
(22:24):
And I think there's a lot ofpeople, people really like that.
There's a lot of benefit to that.
And then you losesomething at the same time.
I'm 48 and so I haven't spent a lotof time in office culture and office environments, but I do read and see people and overhear conversations about kind of different generations and how people think about work and how people relate to work and how people relate to colleagues and those sorts of things.
(22:52):
and so I think anything thatfacilitates people spending time together where they're not talking about work and also where some of the, the hierarchies and the power.
dynamics have been leveled, I thinkit's quite helpful for people to see the humanity and the person behind the role or the relationship or whatever.
(23:16):
so with the tiny tea house kind of on theroad or pop up, whatever you want to call it, one of the values of the tea house, in Japan, The way that the tea house is designed is that there's a small doorway, which everybody has to enter through.
So you can't leave, historicallyyou had to leave all your weapons outside and you had to crawl in on your hands and knees, and so it brings everybody to the same level.
(23:42):
that value, is what I bring tothose kind of offers, so workshops, retreats, off sites, things like that.
Where we take the tea house, so we takeall the, we can have a tea ceremony or do a tea tasting or we can, we can teach people how to make tea for each other.
but the founding, the basicprinciple is that we're all in this learning together, it's a new skill.
(24:06):
And that, when your boss or yourcolleague is serving you tea, thinking about, the experience from your perspective and connecting with you.
It feels very different thanjust kind of making a cup of tea.
We do it naturally anyway.
People make you a cup of tea.
I guess in some ways that's what'sgone when people aren't in the office.
People don't just pass your deskand say, Oh, do you want a brew?
(24:26):
So, this in a way makes ita bit more formal or kind of creates a reason to do it.
but it also Because it's a new skill,and it's a familiar skill, but it's a new way of looking at it, a new perspective on it for most people.
and because it's built in,the idea of making tea in this way helps people to connect.
(24:50):
Just through the act of doing itactually helps people to connect, and that doesn't seem like a crazy notion.
It's like, if you go out forlunch, business deals happen.
You go and play golf.
whatever it might be, goand grab a coffee together.
It's going to happen rather thanon zoom and a million and one, you know, 10 zoom calls to one.
(25:11):
I'm sure there's someratio somewhere, right?
An in person meeting versushow many zoom calls or emails you just get so much more done.
because all of those things that youcan't pick up on email, you can't pick up on zoom, body language, the connection that you have with people.
the way, can you trust that person, orto what level, degree can you trust them?
(25:34):
All of those things, your instinctsthat happen when you're in proximity to somebody are back in the room, so you can make use of that information to make your decisions.
so that is one of the things that I take.
So in kind of practical terms,what happens is, We'll go to a company, or I'll go to a company, and we'll work with a group of somewhere from like 10 to 20 people.
(25:57):
So, for a smaller group like 10, wecan do things like, tea meditation, so you learn how to meditate, using tea as a, as a kind of a doorway for that.
which I think is really helpfulfor people that don't have a formal meditation practice or find sitting on a cushion or other approaches hard.
It's a really nice entry into doing that.
The other thing sometimeswe do is tea and journaling.
(26:18):
So, we teach a tea meditationand then we do some journaling around a particular prompt.
And then, that often is more ofa reflective session, generally not something to be shared.
That's something just for peoplejust to keep to themselves.
but again, in being in the presenceof other people doing that and feeling being in that kind of space is actually very helpful for people just to share that time together.
(26:40):
I think about it hopefully if you'rein a good family situation and not everyone's, not everybody's ears, but you feel that sense of when you're in a family you can just kind of relax and be yourself and you just don't necessarily, people aren't going to ask too much of you and I think that often at work is that people are always asking things
of you and so to create a space whereyou can sit side by side, do things quietly, and just be in that space, but not have anything demanded of you, not ask you to input, there's always this thing, are you going to contribute or you can do this to be allowed the space, but we don't have to contribute.
(27:11):
I'm not going to askanybody to say anything.
If you want to just, you know,drink tea quietly, you can do that.
So I tried to facilitatethose kinds of environments.
And at the same time, we alsohave more sociable and cited one recently where it was.
the, culture to go to a restaurant orgo to the pub and they wanted to do something where alcohol wasn't involved and, which is pretty, you know, can go many directions at work and in life.
(27:38):
and funnily enough, when we went throughthe, the requirement and the brief, I said, well, I'll come along, we'll do this, I'll teach everybody how to make tea, we'll make three different teas, and we're going to do it with Chinese teaware, which will be kind of fun, and get it all messy and so on.
And then at the end, I think I might bringlike a tea cocktail or something like that, we'll just, make something fun.
(27:58):
And the person said, well,we don't need a tea cocktail.
The whole point is that we're doingthis because it's an alcohol free event, we want to encourage people and include people, so you don't need to bring that, there's no need for that.
And that was really an eye opener becauseit didn't need any extra fizz on top.
The, the thing that we were there to dodid the work and was very successful.
(28:19):
Everybody loved it.
And then they said, Oh, can youcome back and do, meditation and journaling with us next time?
So that started the conversation, andthey felt some value in that and said, okay, can we do this in a different way?
and it didn't need alcohol.
And in a way, that was proof of thepudding I suppose because there just seemed to be a need for these kind of ways of getting together which don't include alcohol, can be as inclusive as possible, can happen in the daytime so that you can then go back to work and be productive you know.
(28:50):
I actually had a conversation withsomebody recently in the charity sector who was asking about whether I could come in and do something and and I told her what it costs and she said well that's quite reasonable and I was surprised because I hadn't, fully appreciated, I sort of thought of the charity sector as, not having any money, essentially.
And, or having to be moreconscious of those budgets.
(29:12):
And she said, well, if you think aboutit, you're going to take our people for two hours, give them an experience where they connect with each other so that, their work relationships are more harmonious and they can go home.
feeling good.
And then the next day they're allgoing to turn up to work to because they haven't been to the pub.
And we would spend roughly the sameamount of money on this as we would taking them all out for dinner or, going bowling or whatever it might be.
(29:37):
and so there's a place for all of it,but I think increasingly there is a sense, particularly with the younger generation, of thinking, well, I don't want to socialise outside my work hours necessarily, have my friends and my, all my other things that I want to do, and why can't we make it happen in, inside the workday?
prioritise that as part of our culture?
(29:58):
I think that's a big differencewhere in the past it was an add on.
And now people are making it anintegral part of how they work together.
Which is, fantastic, really, I think.
And last week I was in London I wasdoing a talk in an architecture firm.
Yeah.
And they had this big, beautiful roomwith a kitchen in it and every day they serve lunch to all of their staff.
(30:23):
And they do two sittings becauseit was getting chaotic, they said people were queuing on the stairs.
But there's something lovely about thatas well is that they care for their staff.
So people don't pay for the lunch.
Everybody can eat.
There's no eating at your desk,which I was a terror for doing.
And there's just that time outof the schedule, isn't there?
And I think.
(30:44):
the tea ceremony then is somethingso it's different because people don't know what to expect, but you also kind of go, it's just tea.
I mean, you know, it can't be dangerousbecause a lot of, I think a lot of ideas and workshops that come into organizations perhaps can be a little intimidating, but something like tea is something that even if we don't like it, we're aware of it from a very, very young age in any culture in the world.
(31:11):
Yeah.
And I think.
It, it also comes back to, when yousaid about different cultures, we are, particularly in London, but most major cities have got people from all over the world and people with all kinds of different cultures and stories and tea is
one of those ones that is the most drunkapart from water, the most drunk beverage in the world and everybody has their own ritual whether that ritual is the way that you make your cup of builders.
(31:40):
Or whether it's masala chai from yourparticular area of India, or whether it's your experience growing up around a tea house in Taiwan or something like that.
and there are so many, Turkey'sgot fantastic, lots of African countries have got incredible tea ceremonies and tea cultures.
And so people bring that and I welcomethat into the conversation because I'm an English guy that went to Japan via China.
(32:07):
Came back and brought some of theseideas, but I'm not the first person that thought of this I think I'm the first person to think about doing it in this way In this format and everybody brings something unique to that.
But the whole idea is what does thistrigger in you to think about in your life that you can connect to and I think that that really is like sowing a seed.
(32:30):
I don't come and say, right, this isthe way you're supposed to meditate.
This is the way that you'resupposed to drink tea.
If you drink this particular tea, thenit will give you this particular effect.
That's just nonsense.
so people have to find their own way,but to give people the opportunity to either rekindle that in themselves or discover something new, I think is the, is the idea behind it.
it's a really gentle way of doing itbecause it's familiar to most people.
(32:53):
There will be some kind of link.
It's not completely alien.
and I think that also encouragesconversations between different colleagues about their different cultures and Memories from home or memories, you know, whether that be in a different country or just a different time all of those things are quite Nostalgic for people quite often and so i've been in the room so many times This is quite a funny.
(33:17):
I think it's a funny aside.
So when you do tasting there issometimes this sense that I think there's this perception about when you do tasting of things that you're supposed to know something about it.
Right.
So it's like, Oh, what's the right answer.
You know, is this wine, X, Y, Z.
Dark or fruity or whatever.
It's part of our obsession.
I love these things.
if you can check, look at my Netflixalgorithm, you will see that I will watch.
(33:41):
chef's table and kind of sommelier things.
I just love these people that areabsolute masters and of their craft.
And the senses.
And the
senses, but at the same time there'sthis sense that oh this is for those people over there, you know, you have to have gone through all this stuff to all these particular trainings to do that and that's not really what it's about.
and with tea.
(34:03):
I never tell people, what are you tasting?
I invite people to tell me whatthey're tasting, but it can be a flavor, it can be a memory, it can be a sense, it can be a sensation.
All of these things are validbecause these are the things that happen, so there's no right answer.
I've had some amazing answers.
One person said, drank thistea, which was, I would say it's kind of like a bit leathery.
(34:24):
And a bit kind of like tobacco tasting,let's say, I wasn't saying this, but this is the kind of general feedback and he tasted and he said, Oh, this tastes like a Chipping Norton charity shop.
If you know what that is, you're like,yeah, that's exactly what it tastes like.
And that's perfect.
That's a great description.
No one else was going to comeup with that description.
And then somebody else said somethingabout, Oh, this smells like, or tastes like the bottom of my pet iguana's cage.
(34:53):
And you think, well, yeah it does,because I don't know what that tastes like, but this is a kind of, slightly kind of musky, animal y.
It's got a particular scent to it,which it's kind of a bit funky.
And so you think, oh yeah, I can get that.
that happens quite a lot.
And then the other thing is thatpeople, often, so I've done a lot of training in different European countries, and, quite often.
(35:15):
People will say, oh, this tastes likethe fish that my grandmother used to make or the smell when you open this particular dish or whatever.
when you go to a country andeverybody's got that, or a few people start nodding around the table, you think, oh yeah, this is a thing.
Like, I've never, I would neverhave picked that up myself because I haven't, I don't live in this country, I've never had that experience.
But for you, there's thiskind of common theme.
(35:35):
So I think that's the lovelything about senses generally.
but to invite that also connects people.
Beautiful.
The senses.
that's amazing.
And I think the, I mean, we use our sensesobviously to make sense of the world.
And then they sift through pastexperiences trying to think, well, what is this most like?
And that's it.
It can be a Chipping Nortoncharity shop or a fish dish.
(35:58):
And that's quite incredible, isn't it?
Because the memories orexperiences that we store.
Our brain and body will bring themback up and then the nostalgia and what was incredible sitting here for me is I'm taken right back to when I was about I'd say very young like under 10 and there was this man who used to walk the roads So this is back in the 70s, early 80s in Ireland.
(36:26):
He was a dying breed and I guesshe was a beggar man or whatever the title was in those days.
And he used to come to my grandmother'shouse and he would knock on the door and he would say, any chance of a sup of tea?
And my grandmother had,he had his own cup.
In the house and he would, he might comeevery couple of months or every year or something and he would come to the house have his cup of tea and be on his way.
(36:50):
I guess she gave him somemoney or some food as well.
and then he just stopped coming.
So I guess he, he passed away, butthat's what this sitting quiet in here brought up for me something I haven't thought about in years, yeah.
So it's amazing how oursenses sift through life.
And yeah,
absolutely.
And It bubbles up to the surface becausewhen you sit quietly these things, it just fires off all of these connections and then suddenly this pops into your mind that you haven't thought of for years.
(37:20):
Yeah.
I think that's the beauty of it, andsometimes it's, people can experience that on their own, but if you get to share that with other people and talk about it, then it shows, it tells you a little bit about who you are.
And where you come from and, andthat's a, that's a lovely, that's very, so evocative of Ireland, isn't it?
He's like, yes, yes, theman that walks the road.
Yes.
And he was, dressed in grey and yeah.
(37:41):
But this week I've been, so it's themiddle of October when I'm recording this, but I've been attending online, the Inner Development Goals Conference that's been on in Stockholm and Sweden.
And a lot of it has been about connection.
So it's about innerdevelopment for outer growth.
And it's, it's quite fascinating.
And a lot of what we've talked abouttoday has come to the fore I think as well about how we connect with each other and find joy in things.
(38:09):
Which brings us to intimacy.
Which, and intimacy is, is a great wayto work and collaborate with others.
it's not intimacy that wethink of in books and magazines and movies or whatever.
It's a very different thing.
It's something, I guess, inour organisations that we still are not making time for.
(38:30):
And I think what's incredible is whenwe slow down, we actually can get to the answer often much quicker.
Yeah,
yeah.
I think with, these things, yeah,certainly with, what just, something that just triggered in my mind.
One second.
It's gone.
(38:51):
It's gone.
Oh well.
As we'd say in Ireland,it must have been a lie.
I'm only joking.
I like that.
I'll move, well, I'll
come back to that.
what was it?
Oh yeah, that was what I was going to say.
it is, it's, I find it so odd ina way that, so my, my work life has always been interesting.
(39:15):
Yeah.
I kind of designed it in theway that I wanted it to be.
And it's never always turned outthat well, there's been some ups and downs, but, I'm lucky, I feel like I'm lucky to being able to chosen the things that I was interested in.
And I followed the path of thethings that I was interested in.
And recently, so my career went from,working as an acupuncturist for 12 years, And then, we didn't cover this, but I've worked for the last 5 6 years in hospitality, and I've worked with Michelin star chefs, and 5 star hotels, and some of the best hotels in Europe, not, globally.
(39:50):
what I've noticed is there's this sort ofdivision between either your work persona And then there's your outer work persona.
And so, you have to think, well, howmuch can I bring to work of myself?
And I, there's always a line,there's some compromise there.
But wouldn't it be nice if we couldbring a lot more of ourselves to work and be allowed to be more ourselves and be forgiving of other people, because it's like friendships, that's the great thing about friendships, is that your good friends allow you to be who you are.
(40:21):
You kind of walk the road together andthat's the, the mark of a good friendship.
there's, yes, people want stuff from you,help each other out, but there's no demand that you might somehow be a different kind of person around that person.
And I think we have to shape shift a lotwhen it comes to work and we all do it.
and so in some ways it's not surprisingthat office parties can be awkward.
(40:44):
Or outings, and when we go there becauseyou've suddenly turned up with a bunch of people you've never met before.
And you thought, who are thesestrangers that I've been working with?
And actually they're showing adifferent side to themselves.
so the closer I guess that you canget to bringing some of those things together, and narrowing down that, that gap, you're more likely to have an authentic relationship with those people.
(41:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's what my book is about.
You asked me, I remember when we met,James asked me what my book was about.
I don't even think I was able togive you an answer, funnily enough.
But it's about Reconciling both parts ofourselves and allowing us to be ourselves.
But often, I don't think we know who thatis, James, because we haven't slowed down to take time and take stock and actually look at how amazing each of us is as well.
(41:40):
And we spend a lot of our timecomparing ourselves to, I wish I was like that person or I could do that or I could do that.
And actually we just need to look at howamazing it is we are even here still.
And all that goes with that.
James, we are out oftime, believe it or not.
So what I'd like to do ishow do people find out more about you and the tiny house?
(42:04):
well, there's a We have awebsite called tinyteahouse.
co.
uk and then on Instagram tiny.
teahouse is the Instagram account.
And yeah, so if people want to findout that's the best way to connect and find out what's going on.
and it's me at the end of it.
So you can, if you want to speak to me.
(42:24):
Just ask for me.
and yeah, that would be the best way.
Fantastic.
And I'll put that in the show notes.
James, thank you so much for thisexperience, for the tea, for the conversation and the invitation.
First of all, to comehere and record as well.
Thank you.
Pleasure.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(42:47):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(43:08):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
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Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
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It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Hello.
And welcome to episode 194 allhave a life beyond the numbers.
And this episode is going outon Saturday, January 18th.
And if you're at home while you'relistening to this episode, I recommend that you make yourself a cup of tea.
(01:40):
This episode was actuallyrecorded in a tea house.
And that is the reason I'm speakingat the beginning of the episode.
Because the sound quality is variable.
It isn't the same as if I was here.
And my office and my guest wasalso in front of a microphone.
(02:05):
We did share a microphone.
Okay, but there is avariability in the sound.
You may need to adjust the volume.
A little bit.
And I apologize in advanceif that interrupts.
The listening experience.
It is a wonderful episode.
(02:28):
And I took so much joyfrom listening back to it.
And that's all.
Thank you to my wonderful guest.
James thorough alone.
And now.
I'll leave you to the episode.
Hello and welcome toLife Beyond the Numbers.
Well, today I am delighted tobe joined by James Thirlwall.
(02:50):
James, you're most welcometo Life Beyond the Numbers.
Thank you very much.
Now, I am out and about today, somethingI've never done on this podcast before, and I'm sitting in a tiny tea house.
I'm not going to say any moreabout that for now, because we will explore why I'm here later.
(03:12):
But actually, let's just startwith maybe talking a little bit about the Tiny Tea House.
is probably the best way to start
yes.
So we're in, my tiny teahouse, in East Stocks, Oxford.
And yeah, the tea house is on theMalin Road, which is, for people that dunno, Oxford, it's kind of a, a busy, bustling, funky part of town.
(03:36):
I think the.
Daily Telegraph had it as the13th coolest neighborhood in the UK, which is a great accolade.
And we are nestled within a yoga studio,called the Everybody Yoga Studio, so everybody's welcome at the yoga studio, and everybody's welcome at the tea house,
Very cool.
(03:57):
And the 13th.
I mean, yes, a lot of people would saythat was an unlucky number, but I don't agree because I was born on the 13th.
I feel good about that.
But tea.
Why tea?
Now, I do not like tea.
In fact, I was just telling Jameswhen I arrived in that even the smell of tea can make me feel a bit ill.
(04:17):
But I am drinking a lovelylemon verbena tea here.
But where did this come from,James, your love of tea?
it's a long story, whichI'll try and make shortish.
so I used to live in Japan.
I spent some time in Japan afterI graduated from university.
And then I went to live in Japan.
And then when I came back from Japan,I became interested in, Buddhism, because I'd spent a lot of time at a Buddhist, temple with a Buddhist priestess who was kind of a badass.
(04:45):
Actually, she had, as a Japanesewoman, she had, She had divorced and decided that she wanted to go into the priesthood, and so we used to spend a lot of time together.
And, anyway, so I returned to the UK,became interested in Buddhism, then trained in acupuncture, became a Chinese medicine practitioner for a while.
for a decade actually, in fact.
And along that journey, I becamereally interested, I went to my first tea ceremony, a Chinese tea ceremony.
(05:09):
And it was run by a friend of mine.
And I was completely transfixed bythe idea of this, these very tiny teapots and these tiny tea cups that were serving small amounts of tea.
And you had this chance to reallyconnect with the experience of sharing tea with other people.
(05:30):
You had the opportunity to reallyappreciate the tea because it was in these small little cups and everything about it.
I fell in love with, I should say thatI am, For listeners, I'm six foot five.
So, I kind of joke that I'm a big manin a tiny teahouse Because there's space in the teahouse for three people at most really, including myself
and so Yeah, I took that idea of Chinesetea ceremony and we do tea ceremonies here, tea tastings kind of using that format so instead of having a big mug of tea, which I'm not averse to, we have small pots of tea with small teacups and instead of one big pot of tea and
(06:11):
you have one mug each, we drink lotsof little rounds of tea, so it's a very sociable thing, it's a nice way to connect with people, and so that was what I fell in love with and so that's kind of how the idea for the tea house came about.
Wow.
I mean there's a lot in there.
Yes.
So.
There is.
There is.
you talked about living in Japanand then studying Chinese medicine.
(06:34):
Where was the connectionbetween China and Japan?
Yeah, good question.
that was more logistical.
I became interested in, so first, I thinkfirst I became interested in Buddhism.
and then through that, I started lookingaround when I was coming back to the UK.
so I come from a medical family.
My dad's a doctor, my mum's I spenta lot of time working in hospitals.
(06:56):
through my university.
I paid my university, kind oftopped up through university with working in hospitals.
I'd worked at Stoke MandevilleHospital, in the spinal unit years ago.
And so I had this interest andI was thinking about coming back to the UK to train as a doctor.
and I think I, Probably underestimatedhow difficult that would be.
And also, I think the reasons whyI was choosing to do that were not necessarily always my own.
(07:21):
and, yeah, I had been exposed tosomething new, so I came back and studied Buddhism, not formally, but informally with different groups in London.
And then I discovered acupuncture.
I went for acupuncture one day.
it was in North London somewhere.
And I lay down on the couch and somebodyput a needle in the middle of my forehead.
(07:41):
And I had this kind of bizarreexperience, almost like an out of body experience, where I was so relaxed, I probably wasn't sure or wasn't aware of how stressed I was at that point.
And then suddenly thisamazing feeling came over me.
And I remember walking out ofthere, walking down the road.
(08:02):
It was in Finchley, that was it.
And I stood at the tube stop and Iwatched about five trains go past because I didn't want to get on one.
I thought there's no way I canbe around people right now.
It was like being stoned.
And, I thought great because I'd beenstoned before and, this felt like an expensive way to get stoned, I must say.
But it was, healthier.
(08:23):
It was healthier, yeah.
So I guess in the same way asthe tea, it just hooked me.
And so that was my firstintroduction to Chinese medicine.
I looked into it and I looked at studyingin Japan and obviously, there's Japanese acupuncture and Japanese, medicine.
But the availability to be ableto study that or the access to that is you need to have fluent Japanese, you need to live in Japan.
(08:45):
There weren't any schools teaching outsideof Japan that I could access really.
whereas in the UK it was much easier.
So there was, a number of schools.
There was one in London,there was one in Leamington.
There was one in Bristol, and then I choseone in Reading, which was closer to home and just felt like the right fit, really.
And so then I became an acupuncturist,took three years, and then, yeah, had a clinic in Oxford I worked in London a little bit, worked in the Cotswolds, but mostly acupuncture.
(09:15):
And then I did that for,yeah, about 10 or 12 years.
Wow.
And.
A Chinese tea ceremony is somethingI've never heard of before I met you and James and I funnily enough met in a coffee shop randomly one day and here we are now in a tea house.
But I'd never heard abouta Chinese tea ceremony.
(09:36):
I'd certainly been awareof a Japanese tea ceremony.
And so I'm also curious about thedifference between both of those because people might not know what either is even.
Yeah.
so maybe the Japanese tea ceremony is agood place to start because I think more people are aware of that or have some kind of notion of it, so, and again, I wouldn't say I'm an expert in this, but I have had enough exposure to talk about it.
(10:03):
the style of tea in the Japanese teaceremony, there are various ones, but I think the one that's the most known to people is where you have matcha, which is a, which is ground into a powder.
And there is a formal ceremonyaround preparing, boiling the water, preparing the tea, whisking the tea.
(10:26):
So it's, you have a bamboo whisk,which looks, I would say it's like the size and shape of a shaving brush, but it's made out of these bamboo fronds.
It's actually one piece of bamboo that'ssplit into many, many different, bristles.
and then that is then used towhip the tea, and it is served in a very, prescribed, formal way.
(10:46):
and So the tea is served toguests, and guests are often in a teahouse, so traditionally you'd be on your knees in a teahouse.
and you'd be served withtraditional Japanese sweets.
And so, it's very formal, and I thinkwithin the form, as with all things, it's a bit like, anything that you learn which has a kind of a classical form to it you learn the classical form first and then your kind of creative expression emerges from that.
(11:15):
And so I'm not a practitioner of thatstyle but I have seen it and I know lots of people that really enjoy the tea ceremony for that aspect the continued practice of a ritual over and over again.
And so it's a beautiful thing to observeThe principle of it is hospitality and care for your guests and that includes things like the way that the different guests in the tea room are spoken to, the way that they're seated, the order in which they're served.
(11:50):
There will be a scroll of calligraphy ora painting that's relevant to the season that'll be hanging in the tea house.
There'll be a flower arrangementthat's relevant to the tea, or that links to the season.
So all of these things are thoughtabout, the kimono or the clothing of the person that's serving, will also be, relevant and the tea and the sweets and the teaware and everything about this will be thought of to such a degree that it's seen as the kind of ultimate expression of hospitality I think.
(12:20):
and so that's the Japanese tea ceremony.
It has its roots in Zen Buddhism.
and so there are many schools in JapanI hope I can say this without being offensive to anybody, but I would say that the Japanese tea ceremony is about 99% ceremony and about 1% tea.
(12:42):
So it's all about the tea in some ways,but it's also about the utensils and the order and the way that things are presented and it's such a performance that you are able to appreciate it as a a thing in and of itself.
It's a thing of beauty.
`It's like a piece of art.
It's a piece of art,
exactly.
and it's seen across the worldand it's been changed, and become more kind of contemporary and evolved in different ways.
(13:04):
And there are kind of movementsactually, if you look online now for people taking that tradition and completely not subverting it, but changing it into a way which is more more than an accessible, but.
you know, which would I'm sure angerthe purists, but also, with all of these things it has the possibility of becoming a dying art or just eating itself with, with its own dogma.
(13:29):
And so people are trying to, change that.
I'm not one of those people,but I'm aware of that.
so that's the Japanese tea ceremony.
And then the Chinese tea ceremony,I'd like to say it's probably 90, 99 percent tea and 1 percent ceremony.
There are ceremonial aspects to it.
and again there are differentforms, but like a lot of Chinese cultural arts, so things like calligraphy or tai chi or tea is one.
(13:56):
there is this kind of notion of flow.
And so, this constant sense of flow,and so that flow is the flowing of the tea, is the flowing of the water.
And it's messy, you pour water ontop of teapots, things splash around.
if you go to tea houses inChina, you'll find huge long, tea stages, these kind of tea pots.
tray is almost where you expectto make a mess, but it's the, when you actually tune into it, it's not messy, it's deliberate mess.
(14:22):
And you can see that the movementsof the person that's serving the tea are very deliberate and refined and well practiced, but there's a sense of flow to them, which is really, fluid.
And it just gives this sort of senseof natural presence, I suppose.
and the same thing, so we'll bethere, so there'll be snacks, and tea, little bits of food that are.
Connect with the tea andconnect with the season.
(14:45):
same with flower arrangements andthe ornaments, within the space.
but the other thing is that there might bemany different teas that you would drink.
So it wouldn't be one style of tea.
It would be, you might have a, you mightstart with one particular tea, like a wine tasting, if you think about it like that.
with a wine tasting, you might startwith a light white wine and then you might get onto heavier reds.
And then you might end up.
(15:06):
I don't know, I mightend up falling asleep.
Yes, drunk!
But there's that kind of progression,and so there is that possibility for you drink that tea, you enjoy that together, and you might just stop, or it might be that you end up talking to each other and sharing conversations and so on.
And so in a way, it feels much morefluid, much more relaxed, and to me I think that was what I enjoyed about it.
(15:30):
And you can take it to differentlevels, it can be very sociable, it can be very reflective.
and I think because I've practiced thatagain, not through formal training, but just kind of picked up on that, the thing that I love about it is that it is an act of hospitality, but it's also a real, an active connection.
And so if you have a group of friendsthat are drinking tea together, It might be at some point that the person serving tea switches out and somebody else wants to sit there and serve, you know, so everybody gets a chance to make tea for the people.
(15:58):
So there's this lovely fluidityto it and the core idea is around, yeah, is around connection,
Yeah, which, like, I mean, sittinghere, I'm sitting here watching James explain all of this and there's such a flow and fluidity to how you explain it.
And it makes me want to drink teaone day, which is really interesting.
(16:23):
what I loved in your description, as youtalked about flow and fluidity, it's also.
I kept thinking flow of conversationand then you end by saying it's about connection and so is there something in that relaxed Chinese way less formal that also perhaps prompts or enables that flow of connection and conversation?
(16:50):
Yeah absolutely I think is builtfor that the tiny Tea House has a, what did you call it?
A tagline or mm-hmm . Kind of,and that is, connect with tea.
And so, and that can be different things.
It can be connected with theexperience of drinking tea and there can be a gastronomic element to it, sensory element to it.
There's, connected with yourself.
(17:10):
So when you slow down to pay attentionto things in the moment, then.
it's often surprising whatactually comes up, what emerges.
and then the other thing isconnecting with other people.
so in the tea house, there's spaceto connect with another person.
So you generally ask somebodyto invite a friend or partner or another tea lover here.
(17:32):
and three is a really nicenumber to, to create that,
intimate connection.
And then the other thingis, so with groups.
So.
by serving tea to other people, itacts as a, it's an act of hospitality.
and so I think that always laysthe ground for a better connection.
And I think when you're doing somethingwhere you're not distracted, and where you can give your full attention to something, and you feel like time has slowed down, then you have the opportunity to really connect with people and talk.
(18:06):
more open heartedly, more authentically,all of those things, and you know, those things feel in this day and age quite easy things to say, because it feels like those are the things that people want to hear, but I've had years and years and years of experience of this practice,
and if I don't do this practice, and notto say I'm addicted to it, I notice that this practice, like any other practice that we do in our life, if we have a ritual, meditation or going for a run or walking, whatever, all of those things.
(18:34):
Once you start to take those out or youstart to miss them because you realize they're a big foundation for your sense of happiness, your sense of self and your sense of connection with things.
and so this for me has just beenone of those ones that I just, Oh, this, that really makes sense to me.
and so that's why I started the teahouse was to share that with other people, because That's what it's given to me and, and that's not about me, that's about setting things up, creating the environment where people can feel relaxed, and coffee.
(19:04):
I was joking about coffee at thebeginning, because I love coffee shops and coffee shops are places where generally, they're very buzzy, you have great conversations in coffee shops, and, I will spend way too much money because the cakes are so nice.
And, But you also have grinders grindingand steam steaming and conversations on phones and laptops and things like that.
(19:28):
it creates a different kind of buzz.
It's a literal buzz.
Like I walk into a coffee shop andI was like, Oh, I feel energized, but not in a sense of, I don't feel resourced by going into a coffee shop.
I feel like I've had like a caffeine formy mind and my body and like a social snack almost, just to keep me going.
But if I want to have a,quieter conversation, then, you know, I generally turn to tea.
(19:51):
And I'm lucky enough to havethis space where I can invite people here, to, to do that.
My experience of teahouses in China isthat, and I also don't want to make a kind of a facsimile of a Chinese teahouse, that isn't the idea, I'm not Chinese, but it's the values of that, and the values are bringing people together in a kind of quiet, relaxed atmosphere, and, the idea to try and create an option for people I think is what I'm trying to do as well.
(20:17):
So yeah, if you want todrink coffee, that's great.
Sometimes you might not feellike being surrounded by all those people with all that noise.
And it's nice to have another option.
And in China, in Japan, in Taiwan,in Korea, you do have that option.
You can go to those places and that'sthe function that they have in, society and culture, I think, over there.
Yeah, it's fascinating because when Ithink of China, I've never been to China.
(20:39):
I've been to quite a few Asiancountries, but when I think of China, I never think of slowing down and quiet, because wherever you go in the world, there's a China town.
It's always hustle and bustle and so on.
And this is the absolute opposite.
But then again, the Asian culturefor me, I often think about slowing down, because Asian culture is like saying Western European culture.
(21:01):
I mean, it's a catch all, isn't it?
We're all very different.
But the idea of Asia always for meis much more spiritual, much more connection with myself and with people who seem to have time to talk to you and actually appreciate you as well.
So, James, the workplace mainly is myfocus and slowing down is something that you described it beautifully, I think, how things come up when we take time to slow down and be quiet.
(21:34):
And it's one of those, it's almostlike until you experience it, you don't really believe it because you believe that you need to just keep going and do more and do more.
But when you know.
You know, so I know that you bringtea to the workplace as well.
So maybe you could talk a little to that.
(21:55):
yeah, so
I was looking recently at some of theneeds, modern needs in the workplace.
And I think after the pandemic,the big one that comes up time and time again is connection.
So how people.
connect physically because you havethese situations where people are working from home or they're hybrid, and people aren't necessarily crossing over in the same way as they used to.
(22:24):
And I think there's a lot ofpeople, people really like that.
There's a lot of benefit to that.
And then you losesomething at the same time.
I'm 48 and so I haven't spent a lotof time in office culture and office environments, but I do read and see people and overhear conversations about kind of different generations and how people think about work and how people relate to work and how people relate to colleagues and those sorts of things.
(22:52):
and so I think anything thatfacilitates people spending time together where they're not talking about work and also where some of the, the hierarchies and the power.
dynamics have been leveled, I thinkit's quite helpful for people to see the humanity and the person behind the role or the relationship or whatever.
(23:16):
so with the tiny tea house kind of on theroad or pop up, whatever you want to call it, one of the values of the tea house, in Japan, The way that the tea house is designed is that there's a small doorway, which everybody has to enter through.
So you can't leave, historicallyyou had to leave all your weapons outside and you had to crawl in on your hands and knees, and so it brings everybody to the same level.
(23:42):
that value, is what I bring tothose kind of offers, so workshops, retreats, off sites, things like that.
Where we take the tea house, so we takeall the, we can have a tea ceremony or do a tea tasting or we can, we can teach people how to make tea for each other.
but the founding, the basicprinciple is that we're all in this learning together, it's a new skill.
(24:06):
And that, when your boss or yourcolleague is serving you tea, thinking about, the experience from your perspective and connecting with you.
It feels very different thanjust kind of making a cup of tea.
We do it naturally anyway.
People make you a cup of tea.
I guess in some ways that's what'sgone when people aren't in the office.
People don't just pass your deskand say, Oh, do you want a brew?
(24:26):
So, this in a way makes ita bit more formal or kind of creates a reason to do it.
but it also Because it's a new skill,and it's a familiar skill, but it's a new way of looking at it, a new perspective on it for most people.
and because it's built in,the idea of making tea in this way helps people to connect.
(24:50):
Just through the act of doing itactually helps people to connect, and that doesn't seem like a crazy notion.
It's like, if you go out forlunch, business deals happen.
You go and play golf.
whatever it might be, goand grab a coffee together.
It's going to happen rather thanon zoom and a million and one, you know, 10 zoom calls to one.
(25:11):
I'm sure there's someratio somewhere, right?
An in person meeting versushow many zoom calls or emails you just get so much more done.
because all of those things that youcan't pick up on email, you can't pick up on zoom, body language, the connection that you have with people.
the way, can you trust that person, orto what level, degree can you trust them?
(25:34):
All of those things, your instinctsthat happen when you're in proximity to somebody are back in the room, so you can make use of that information to make your decisions.
so that is one of the things that I take.
So in kind of practical terms,what happens is, We'll go to a company, or I'll go to a company, and we'll work with a group of somewhere from like 10 to 20 people.
(25:57):
So, for a smaller group like 10, wecan do things like, tea meditation, so you learn how to meditate, using tea as a, as a kind of a doorway for that.
which I think is really helpfulfor people that don't have a formal meditation practice or find sitting on a cushion or other approaches hard.
It's a really nice entry into doing that.
The other thing sometimeswe do is tea and journaling.
(26:18):
So, we teach a tea meditationand then we do some journaling around a particular prompt.
And then, that often is more ofa reflective session, generally not something to be shared.
That's something just for peoplejust to keep to themselves.
but again, in being in the presenceof other people doing that and feeling being in that kind of space is actually very helpful for people just to share that time together.
(26:40):
I think about it hopefully if you'rein a good family situation and not everyone's, not everybody's ears, but you feel that sense of when you're in a family you can just kind of relax and be yourself and you just don't necessarily, people aren't going to ask too much of you and I think that often at work is that people are always asking things
of you and so to create a space whereyou can sit side by side, do things quietly, and just be in that space, but not have anything demanded of you, not ask you to input, there's always this thing, are you going to contribute or you can do this to be allowed the space, but we don't have to contribute.
(27:11):
I'm not going to askanybody to say anything.
If you want to just, you know,drink tea quietly, you can do that.
So I tried to facilitatethose kinds of environments.
And at the same time, we alsohave more sociable and cited one recently where it was.
the, culture to go to a restaurant orgo to the pub and they wanted to do something where alcohol wasn't involved and, which is pretty, you know, can go many directions at work and in life.
(27:38):
and funnily enough, when we went throughthe, the requirement and the brief, I said, well, I'll come along, we'll do this, I'll teach everybody how to make tea, we'll make three different teas, and we're going to do it with Chinese teaware, which will be kind of fun, and get it all messy and so on.
And then at the end, I think I might bringlike a tea cocktail or something like that, we'll just, make something fun.
(27:58):
And the person said, well,we don't need a tea cocktail.
The whole point is that we're doingthis because it's an alcohol free event, we want to encourage people and include people, so you don't need to bring that, there's no need for that.
And that was really an eye opener becauseit didn't need any extra fizz on top.
The, the thing that we were there to dodid the work and was very successful.
(28:19):
Everybody loved it.
And then they said, Oh, can youcome back and do, meditation and journaling with us next time?
So that started the conversation, andthey felt some value in that and said, okay, can we do this in a different way?
and it didn't need alcohol.
And in a way, that was proof of thepudding I suppose because there just seemed to be a need for these kind of ways of getting together which don't include alcohol, can be as inclusive as possible, can happen in the daytime so that you can then go back to work and be productive you know.
(28:50):
I actually had a conversation withsomebody recently in the charity sector who was asking about whether I could come in and do something and and I told her what it costs and she said well that's quite reasonable and I was surprised because I hadn't, fully appreciated, I sort of thought of the charity sector as, not having any money, essentially.
And, or having to be moreconscious of those budgets.
(29:12):
And she said, well, if you think aboutit, you're going to take our people for two hours, give them an experience where they connect with each other so that, their work relationships are more harmonious and they can go home.
feeling good.
And then the next day they're allgoing to turn up to work to because they haven't been to the pub.
And we would spend roughly the sameamount of money on this as we would taking them all out for dinner or, going bowling or whatever it might be.
(29:37):
and so there's a place for all of it,but I think increasingly there is a sense, particularly with the younger generation, of thinking, well, I don't want to socialise outside my work hours necessarily, have my friends and my, all my other things that I want to do, and why can't we make it happen in, inside the workday?
prioritise that as part of our culture?
(29:58):
I think that's a big differencewhere in the past it was an add on.
And now people are making it anintegral part of how they work together.
Which is, fantastic, really, I think.
And last week I was in London I wasdoing a talk in an architecture firm.
Yeah.
And they had this big, beautiful roomwith a kitchen in it and every day they serve lunch to all of their staff.
(30:23):
And they do two sittings becauseit was getting chaotic, they said people were queuing on the stairs.
But there's something lovely about thatas well is that they care for their staff.
So people don't pay for the lunch.
Everybody can eat.
There's no eating at your desk,which I was a terror for doing.
And there's just that time outof the schedule, isn't there?
And I think.
(30:44):
the tea ceremony then is somethingso it's different because people don't know what to expect, but you also kind of go, it's just tea.
I mean, you know, it can't be dangerousbecause a lot of, I think a lot of ideas and workshops that come into organizations perhaps can be a little intimidating, but something like tea is something that even if we don't like it, we're aware of it from a very, very young age in any culture in the world.
(31:11):
Yeah.
And I think.
It, it also comes back to, when yousaid about different cultures, we are, particularly in London, but most major cities have got people from all over the world and people with all kinds of different cultures and stories and tea is
one of those ones that is the most drunkapart from water, the most drunk beverage in the world and everybody has their own ritual whether that ritual is the way that you make your cup of builders.
(31:40):
Or whether it's masala chai from yourparticular area of India, or whether it's your experience growing up around a tea house in Taiwan or something like that.
and there are so many, Turkey'sgot fantastic, lots of African countries have got incredible tea ceremonies and tea cultures.
And so people bring that and I welcomethat into the conversation because I'm an English guy that went to Japan via China.
(32:07):
Came back and brought some of theseideas, but I'm not the first person that thought of this I think I'm the first person to think about doing it in this way In this format and everybody brings something unique to that.
But the whole idea is what does thistrigger in you to think about in your life that you can connect to and I think that that really is like sowing a seed.
(32:30):
I don't come and say, right, this isthe way you're supposed to meditate.
This is the way that you'resupposed to drink tea.
If you drink this particular tea, thenit will give you this particular effect.
That's just nonsense.
so people have to find their own way,but to give people the opportunity to either rekindle that in themselves or discover something new, I think is the, is the idea behind it.
it's a really gentle way of doing itbecause it's familiar to most people.
(32:53):
There will be some kind of link.
It's not completely alien.
and I think that also encouragesconversations between different colleagues about their different cultures and Memories from home or memories, you know, whether that be in a different country or just a different time all of those things are quite Nostalgic for people quite often and so i've been in the room so many times This is quite a funny.
(33:17):
I think it's a funny aside.
So when you do tasting there issometimes this sense that I think there's this perception about when you do tasting of things that you're supposed to know something about it.
Right.
So it's like, Oh, what's the right answer.
You know, is this wine, X, Y, Z.
Dark or fruity or whatever.
It's part of our obsession.
I love these things.
if you can check, look at my Netflixalgorithm, you will see that I will watch.
(33:41):
chef's table and kind of sommelier things.
I just love these people that areabsolute masters and of their craft.
And the senses.
And the
senses, but at the same time there'sthis sense that oh this is for those people over there, you know, you have to have gone through all this stuff to all these particular trainings to do that and that's not really what it's about.
and with tea.
(34:03):
I never tell people, what are you tasting?
I invite people to tell me whatthey're tasting, but it can be a flavor, it can be a memory, it can be a sense, it can be a sensation.
All of these things are validbecause these are the things that happen, so there's no right answer.
I've had some amazing answers.
One person said, drank thistea, which was, I would say it's kind of like a bit leathery.
(34:24):
And a bit kind of like tobacco tasting,let's say, I wasn't saying this, but this is the kind of general feedback and he tasted and he said, Oh, this tastes like a Chipping Norton charity shop.
If you know what that is, you're like,yeah, that's exactly what it tastes like.
And that's perfect.
That's a great description.
No one else was going to comeup with that description.
And then somebody else said somethingabout, Oh, this smells like, or tastes like the bottom of my pet iguana's cage.
(34:53):
And you think, well, yeah it does,because I don't know what that tastes like, but this is a kind of, slightly kind of musky, animal y.
It's got a particular scent to it,which it's kind of a bit funky.
And so you think, oh yeah, I can get that.
that happens quite a lot.
And then the other thing is thatpeople, often, so I've done a lot of training in different European countries, and, quite often.
(35:15):
People will say, oh, this tastes likethe fish that my grandmother used to make or the smell when you open this particular dish or whatever.
when you go to a country andeverybody's got that, or a few people start nodding around the table, you think, oh yeah, this is a thing.
Like, I've never, I would neverhave picked that up myself because I haven't, I don't live in this country, I've never had that experience.
But for you, there's thiskind of common theme.
(35:35):
So I think that's the lovelything about senses generally.
but to invite that also connects people.
Beautiful.
The senses.
that's amazing.
And I think the, I mean, we use our sensesobviously to make sense of the world.
And then they sift through pastexperiences trying to think, well, what is this most like?
And that's it.
It can be a Chipping Nortoncharity shop or a fish dish.
(35:58):
And that's quite incredible, isn't it?
Because the memories orexperiences that we store.
Our brain and body will bring themback up and then the nostalgia and what was incredible sitting here for me is I'm taken right back to when I was about I'd say very young like under 10 and there was this man who used to walk the roads So this is back in the 70s, early 80s in Ireland.
(36:26):
He was a dying breed and I guesshe was a beggar man or whatever the title was in those days.
And he used to come to my grandmother'shouse and he would knock on the door and he would say, any chance of a sup of tea?
And my grandmother had,he had his own cup.
In the house and he would, he might comeevery couple of months or every year or something and he would come to the house have his cup of tea and be on his way.
(36:50):
I guess she gave him somemoney or some food as well.
and then he just stopped coming.
So I guess he, he passed away, butthat's what this sitting quiet in here brought up for me something I haven't thought about in years, yeah.
So it's amazing how oursenses sift through life.
And yeah,
absolutely.
And It bubbles up to the surface becausewhen you sit quietly these things, it just fires off all of these connections and then suddenly this pops into your mind that you haven't thought of for years.
(37:20):
Yeah.
I think that's the beauty of it, andsometimes it's, people can experience that on their own, but if you get to share that with other people and talk about it, then it shows, it tells you a little bit about who you are.
And where you come from and, andthat's a, that's a lovely, that's very, so evocative of Ireland, isn't it?
He's like, yes, yes, theman that walks the road.
Yes.
And he was, dressed in grey and yeah.
(37:41):
But this week I've been, so it's themiddle of October when I'm recording this, but I've been attending online, the Inner Development Goals Conference that's been on in Stockholm and Sweden.
And a lot of it has been about connection.
So it's about innerdevelopment for outer growth.
And it's, it's quite fascinating.
And a lot of what we've talked abouttoday has come to the fore I think as well about how we connect with each other and find joy in things.
(38:09):
Which brings us to intimacy.
Which, and intimacy is, is a great wayto work and collaborate with others.
it's not intimacy that wethink of in books and magazines and movies or whatever.
It's a very different thing.
It's something, I guess, inour organisations that we still are not making time for.
(38:30):
And I think what's incredible is whenwe slow down, we actually can get to the answer often much quicker.
Yeah,
yeah.
I think with, these things, yeah,certainly with, what just, something that just triggered in my mind.
One second.
It's gone.
(38:51):
It's gone.
Oh well.
As we'd say in Ireland,it must have been a lie.
I'm only joking.
I like that.
I'll move, well, I'll
come back to that.
what was it?
Oh yeah, that was what I was going to say.
it is, it's, I find it so odd ina way that, so my, my work life has always been interesting.
(39:15):
Yeah.
I kind of designed it in theway that I wanted it to be.
And it's never always turned outthat well, there's been some ups and downs, but, I'm lucky, I feel like I'm lucky to being able to chosen the things that I was interested in.
And I followed the path of thethings that I was interested in.
And recently, so my career went from,working as an acupuncturist for 12 years, And then, we didn't cover this, but I've worked for the last 5 6 years in hospitality, and I've worked with Michelin star chefs, and 5 star hotels, and some of the best hotels in Europe, not, globally.
(39:50):
what I've noticed is there's this sort ofdivision between either your work persona And then there's your outer work persona.
And so, you have to think, well, howmuch can I bring to work of myself?
And I, there's always a line,there's some compromise there.
But wouldn't it be nice if we couldbring a lot more of ourselves to work and be allowed to be more ourselves and be forgiving of other people, because it's like friendships, that's the great thing about friendships, is that your good friends allow you to be who you are.
(40:21):
You kind of walk the road together andthat's the, the mark of a good friendship.
there's, yes, people want stuff from you,help each other out, but there's no demand that you might somehow be a different kind of person around that person.
And I think we have to shape shift a lotwhen it comes to work and we all do it.
and so in some ways it's not surprisingthat office parties can be awkward.
(40:44):
Or outings, and when we go there becauseyou've suddenly turned up with a bunch of people you've never met before.
And you thought, who are thesestrangers that I've been working with?
And actually they're showing adifferent side to themselves.
so the closer I guess that you canget to bringing some of those things together, and narrowing down that, that gap, you're more likely to have an authentic relationship with those people.
(41:10):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And that's what my book is about.
You asked me, I remember when we met,James asked me what my book was about.
I don't even think I was able togive you an answer, funnily enough.
But it's about Reconciling both parts ofourselves and allowing us to be ourselves.
But often, I don't think we know who thatis, James, because we haven't slowed down to take time and take stock and actually look at how amazing each of us is as well.
(41:40):
And we spend a lot of our timecomparing ourselves to, I wish I was like that person or I could do that or I could do that.
And actually we just need to look at howamazing it is we are even here still.
And all that goes with that.
James, we are out oftime, believe it or not.
So what I'd like to do ishow do people find out more about you and the tiny house?
(42:04):
well, there's a We have awebsite called tinyteahouse.
co.
uk and then on Instagram tiny.
teahouse is the Instagram account.
And yeah, so if people want to findout that's the best way to connect and find out what's going on.
and it's me at the end of it.
So you can, if you want to speak to me.
(42:24):
Just ask for me.
and yeah, that would be the best way.
Fantastic.
And I'll put that in the show notes.
James, thank you so much for thisexperience, for the tea, for the conversation and the invitation.
First of all, to comehere and record as well.
Thank you.
Pleasure.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(42:47):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(43:08):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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