October 12, 2024 • 51 mins
"...they were willing to take risks for the experience .... and I think I've really taken that on." Liz Jarman
Liz Jarman and I discuss her planned departure as CEO of Living Goods at the end of 2024. She shares her fascinating approach to succession planning, leadership transitions and a non-linear career path. We chat through some of her achievements, including fostering a strong organisational culture, scaling operations sustainably and spearheading a digital transformation in community health. Liz reflects on the influence of her upbringing on her leadership style, her emphasis on a high-performing team and giving people recognition - all offering invaluable lessons on leadership and managing change.
Liz Jarman was named CEO of Living Goods in 2018 and is a member of the Living Goods Board of Directors. Liz has 25 years of experience from various sectors, Liz joined Living Goods in 2014 as Director of Product Strategy and was promoted to Kenya Country Director in 2015 and at the end of 2017, she was promoted to Chief Strategy Officer. Born in Zambia, Liz spent a large portion of her career at Sainsbury’s, a $30 billion UK grocery business where she rose to lead Sainsbury’s Product Development and Fairtrade strategy and worked with thousands of global suppliers with a particular focus on African sustainable supply chains.
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Resources Mentioned
Squiggly Careers Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Today I am delighted to welcome LizJarman to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Liz, you're so welcome.
Great to be here with you.
Thank you.
and the number we're going for thistime is a little bit different because maybe it's the number of years in the organization, you've been in, and to that point, earlier this year, I saw a post you put out on LinkedIn announcing your departure as CEO of Living Goods.
(01:43):
And announcing your successor.
And also saying that none of this wouldtake place until January 1st, 2025.
So you gave this huge lead in to leavingand you already have your successor.
Now, we talk a lot, I think, inorganizations about succession planning and getting this part right, but it's not something I've seen personally done very well, often, if ever.
(02:12):
So Liz, maybe talk us through a littlebit, your thinking, was it your thinking?
Was it something in your contract?
How did this come about?
Well, I think, first of all, I am aplanner, naturally, but on saying that, I've never been a very good career planner about thinking what's next, so, I plan to get stuff done, I know exactly all my holidays for the next year, et cetera,
(02:38):
but when I first became CEO, itwas a surprise, I'll be honest.
I was an internal candidate aswell, but my predecessor left with just three months notice.
No discussion on succession planning.
I wasn't really ready for it.
It was a huge shock and I had toreally think about whether it was something I wanted to be considered for.
So I think that was always inthe back of my mind that I didn't want the organization to be thrown into a bit of a shock.
(03:02):
That was the case, when I took over.
The second thing is I had areally fantastic board member.
she's my, mentor and shegave me some great advice.
She said.
Very early on, within my firstsix months, she said, Liz, how long do you want to be CEO for?
I had an open ended contract.
And I went, oh, she said, have a thinkabout it, because that helps you sharpen what your legacy is you want to leave.
(03:29):
And so I was like, whew, this reallyplays into me being a planner.
I'm going to say at least five years.
And so it did.
It really gave me a point of what doI want to achieve in five years time?
and I also started to think about, okay.
I probably want to leave so there's theopportunity for me to do another potential big job or something quite different before, you're really into You're 60s.
(03:58):
I'm not there.
I'm early 50s now.
but I was thinking, Oh, actually itgets quite important thinking about timing at this stage in your career.
And do I want to finish my careerin this role or do I want to have the opportunity to try something else or do different types of work?
So five years felt about right.
That would take me up to around being 50.
(04:19):
When I got closer to five years andbearing in mind we'd just be coming out of COVID, which was obviously an intense period for everyone, particularly, I'm based in Africa, and it was really tricky there.
I felt I had another two years left.
So I said to the board, look, I know Isaid five years, but I'd actually like to do another two years, but I really want to start thinking about what is the process you want to go through?
(04:43):
And I explained why another two years.
I explained I wanted to leave on ahigh and things were going really well.
we were just kicking off a strategicplan, a five year strategic plan that seemed to be going well.
So I said, in two years time,we'll be halfway through.
So it allows somebody to come in,get their feet under the table and then, Plan for the next strategic plan, and the timing and all the other things I've talked about.
(05:07):
So I gave them a rationale forwhy I wanted another two years.
They were very grateful.
But I did say I want to starttalking about a process which was like, Oh, okay, that's.
not a plan, a process.
And so we then took our time over two orthree board meetings, we talked about what were the key decisions that needed to be made and the timing of those decisions.
(05:29):
Could I assess if there's anyinternal potential candidates, and what that might look like?
And we also agreed to set upa subcommittee of the board.
we probably talked about the processover three to six months, or probably six months more actually I came up then with that guidance of these are the decisions.
(05:49):
These are potential internalcandidates that I'm thinking through.
And with the subcommittee, we decidedto also bring in an external consultant to help map the, the sort of CEO mapping landscape, the trends that were happening, but also she helped to advise us on CEO transition, but also the broader leadership was happening at the chair of the board level.
(06:16):
Who's the deputy to the CEO?
How does it impact at C suite level?
So we looked at a number of differentareas as well under her guidance.
So we really took our time thinkingabout the leadership of the organization, potential successors, and that allowed us to be very well prepared.
we had a number of steps of decisionmaking, which allowed us, you know, for me to really recommend an internal candidate.
(06:43):
allowed time for her to go on anexecutive assessment center, have an executive coach really over a year before the decision was made, raise her profile with the board and externally.
Allowed me to really understand with my Csuite where everybody else was at in their careers because I knew somebody else was likely going to be leaving similar time.
(07:04):
So I was able to have a reallyopen conversation and we agreed to stagger it by six months.
So it was hyper planned and then wedecided to communicate early because it was an internal appointment so that my successor could go on sabbatical.
But we could kick off the hiringprocess for her replacement and my other C suite person leaving before she went on sabbatical.
(07:30):
So that was really the driver sothat she was set up for success.
She had a team in place from day one,and actually they're going to be in place before she even becomes CEO.
and things are going well.
And I think the last thing to sayis, I know, having done it, change is hard for any organisation, and particularly at CEO level, that I think it's much easier if the organisation is doing well, and it's well planned.
(07:55):
And I'm feeling in a really goodplace, as I enter my last few months, that, this was the right thing to do.
Wow.
I mean, that's so thoughtful andwhat you talk about there, Liz.
I think in one way like COVIDalmost took two years out for you completely, so you're
(08:15):
I felt.
Yeah.
yeah, and I can understandthat because I think a lot of people probably felt like that.
And so did you advertise this positionat all or did you just focus internally?
I know you said you broughtexternal consultant in, but what was that part like?
well, I agreed as part of the processthat there were three options.
(08:37):
We either just appoint internally, we goto market, but consider internal as well, so a hybrid, or we just go to market.
So the first thing I did with the boardwas, present the internal candidates.
and of course she also had to really thinkabout whether it was right for her too.
So she was very aware that, shereally needed to think this through and that was part of this process.
(08:59):
and we very much wanted to investin her on this assessment centers and things like that, regardless CEO, she's just a super leader, whether it was with the living goods.
We wanted to invest in her.
So we spent this time and theboard getting to know her more.
And the first decision that wasmade is she is a credible candidate.
(09:20):
Not necessarily she's the only candidate,but she's the credible candidate.
So that got rid of one ofthe processes, external only.
So it's either internal onlyor internal and external.
The next thing we did iswe did a market mapping.
So the consultant came in, gave profiles,talked about, what they're seeing, their experience when they place CEOs into roles and that typically it takes them a year to get up and running.
(09:46):
And what really helped facilitate some ofthe questions and some of the discussions.
One was that my successoris not an African.
One of the questions, one of thediscussions was how important is it to have an African?
She also has extensiveexperience living in Africa.
She was Uganda country director,but doesn't currently for family reasons, but travels extensively.
(10:11):
We discussed whether that was anissue, but the main thing that really sort of was the main discussion was Where are we doing as an organization?
Do we need somebody to come in andshift things around and adjust things?
Is the strategy not working?
and some of those discussionswere obviously without me there.
But the conclusion from the boardis things are going really well.
(10:32):
We're on track.
The last thing we want todo is slow anything down.
So if we have a credibleinternal candidate.
That is our desired route.
We did discuss some of those other aspectsand in fact the Africans on the board were all very vocal that it's about deep lived experience and it is about a continuation of the strategy that is most important.
(10:54):
However, we did then enter in adifferent conversations about succession pipelines and how it would be absolutely critical that her replacement, so her deputy, was an African and in fact we've just I've done that higher.
And secondly, we would move to aco chair role with an African co chairing the board and eventually taking on the chairing of the board.
(11:21):
So we would continue on a journey tohave much more African representation than we did 10 years ago when I started at the organization.
We've got significantly better.
since I've been CEO, but we move iteven further, but don't make that big leap just for the sake of it right now.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
(11:42):
And you were an internal candidate,so there was that continuity, and continuity is massive.
And I really like what you say,well, things were going well, so we don't need to disrupt everything.
We have the right candidate,but also you are bringing in new people by replacing her.
Now, I'm assuming that person iscoming from outside the organization actually, but there is some disruption, which is always helpful too, I think.
(12:07):
Yeah.
And it's interesting.
I had a long conversation with actuallyour chief people and culture officer about that role, her successor, which is on sort of the deputy role.
If you like, of course we did advertisethat internally, And, and whilst there were a number of candidates almost ready, not quite, but we did have a, a lean towards external because I do think you still need new blood into the organisation.
(12:32):
And so the two C suite roles thatare new, her replacement, somebody else that has left, are external.
And I think that also allowed mysuccessor, to shape what she needed for her to be successful, which could be different to what I needed.
Of course, I've helped very much with therecruitment process, but it's really her call because it's her team in the future.
(12:54):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And Liz, you talked about thatquestion that the board member asked you, your mentor about your legacy.
So what is your legacy for living goods?
Well, we've evolved alot as an organization.
when I took over, we just got abig influx of funding, but that funding needed match funding.
(13:20):
So it was a big pressure to raise a lotof money, but then get a lot of money.
So we were scaling really rapidly.
So part of I think what I have focusedon was how do we scale in a sustainable way with and how do we maintain our culture, which is, I think, quite a unique culture in the not for profit world.
(13:46):
Because a lot of us, myself included,come from the private sector.
And so we have a bit of a privatesector mindset on how we work, how we focus on return on investment, results, and quick testing and pivoting.
we have a lot of what wecall unrestricted funding.
So it's almost like you develop a businessplan and then you fundraise against it rather than do projects that are funded.
(14:06):
So that requires a really strong culture.
and so I really focused on.
improving our culture and makingsure it, it stood throughout COVID, but also with rapid scaling.
So culture is one areathat I'm really proud of.
culture to me includeshigh performing teams.
I think they go hand in hand.
It's not just, Oh, it'sa nice place to work.
(14:28):
it's high performing teams, but largelydriven because it's a great place to work.
So that's one thing.
I really, built a really I adjustedthe strategy, bringing the team along, bringing the board along, and I have a founder who's the chair of the board, so we've really changed quite a lot as an organization.
To move to working within a governmentsystem and with government taking the lead, rather than us being a parallel system to government, which I think is also really critical.
(14:59):
and then the other sort of, Iguess the other two areas I would say is one is a digital journey.
We're an organization that believesdigital tools are really game changer for driving results.
And I was able to.
You know, it's definitely not me, butunder my leadership, all three countries that we work in, the governments have now committed to digitize their community health workforce, which is massive.
(15:24):
And I would never haveexpected it, if I'm honest.
there's quite a lot of other things.
There's a big funding opportunityright now, which could be game changing that I'm going to be handing over, which is fantastic.
so I think lots of pivots andadjustments, and I'm probably.
One final thing, I've actuallyde investing in one country.
I'm reducing our size in one country.
(15:46):
And again, I wanted todo that before I left.
it feels the right time to do it.
we've had 10 years in this countrydoing amazing work, but with our government led strategy, it wasn't as aligned or affordable to continue doing direct implementation.
So we're really, Coming back to a muchtighter, smaller role there, while we work with getting the government to a place where they start taking it on.
(16:09):
But that required us to shrink down andhalve our workforce and our support.
But absolutely let, the country directorsowned it, led it, believes in it.
and it's hard letting go of staff, butI also wanted to do that before I left.
So it's all ready to go, for my successor.
Fantastic.
Wow.
There is so much in that, Liz.
(16:31):
I guess.
The transition, right from the timeyou made your mind up to the 31st of December, an, you knew all along in one way, it sounds like you haven't lost an ounce of interest, right?
From my perspective, which is oftenthe challenge I think in organizations when somebody makes up their mind that they're going and not only the person leaving starts to lose interest, but other people begin to lose interest.
(16:59):
leave you out of things because you're notgoing to be there and suddenly you're not invited into the meetings that you were.
And it can be a really, really difficultperiod, I think, for a lot of people.
So how have you navigatedall of that, Liz?
Yeah, it's a weird one because I,I mentioned this big new funding opportunity, which really my successor has owned, which was completely the right thing to do.
(17:28):
she is now on sabbatical, whichI'm thrilled about because she's getting re energized.
So the weird thing is, I'm having to getinto some details I never even used to get to, because I'm doing her job as well.
so it's almost the opposite right now.
It's like, oh my goodness, thereare things I'm having to, like, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to take me back, explain this, explain that, because I'm doing her job with.
(17:51):
A lot of her team are stepping up as well.
So in a way, right now, it's hyper busy.
She's back, I'm counting the days.
She's back in two weeks time.
and I'm thrilled she's had a break.
so, I think it's the next few monthswhich are going to be really weird.
Because we will bedeveloping our 2025 plan.
It's always a busy time.
Again, very intentional.
She took a sabbatical ahead of planning.
(18:12):
Because, it's not my plan, it's her plan.
But of course, I'vedone it, I'm used to it.
So.
Getting the balance rightin the next, three months is going to be really interesting.
same for, we have an annual big leadershipretreat, coming up and it's like, yeah, I still have to be, show up as the leader, but a lot of it is going to be deferring to her, deferring to her, or trying to not be maybe as vocal as I normally am.
(18:37):
So I can see it starting to happen.
And, we go to UN week in, in New York.
And I was just saying, I'm really, I'mnot sure whether I'm really needed there.
And if I am, I don't wantto feel like a spare part.
I think one of the things that has helpedthough is I said I'm actually not going to look for another job until I leave.
(18:58):
I'm gonna go take a break and I didsay to the board I'm available for two or three months if you need me as an advisor to come back, be behind the scenes and support in any way while I start looking for stuff.
So my head's not somewhere else.
I think that also helps.
Like, I am determined to leave this.
In the best possible way, andhow I can be most helpful.
(19:20):
But yeah, I do think the next threemonths are going to be a bit weird.
But luckily, you and your successorhave worked together already.
So that would probably make it,hopefully, a little bit less stressful.
Because I think if you broughtsomeone new in completely, that might cause a different dynamic again.
Exactly, I'm not sure how I'd feel.
(19:42):
there would be completely differentviews, and you can't really argue with it.
Yeah, and as you said, we've been workingvery closely, actually for ten years.
so we know each other reallywell, of course she adds different skills, but there are also things we're very similar on as well.
So, yes, it definitely is alot more helpful that way.
Well, good.
(20:03):
you talked about being a planner.
And, and I wondered about the transitionand looking back at your life.
Because transitions, like we've talkedabout, Can be, they can go on forever and they can be tricky to navigate and some people just want the results.
They want that new CEO and theykind of don't want to even bother with the bit in the middle.
(20:25):
But I wondered about your backgroundbecause you were born in Zambia, you spent time living in Papua New Guinea as a youngster and you've lived and worked in the UK and now you're in Africa.
How has that influenced your ability?
Other than the planning side, butto go with what's coming up or unfolding as well, I think, because there's uncertainty in all of that.
(20:52):
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, when you lookback, I think it definitely has shaped me.
And I think also, you know,my parents were teachers.
And they went to Zambia in 1968or 69, never travelled abroad, the first place they went was Zambia.
Left on graduation day.
(21:13):
Wow.
And, and went, they had a schemepost independence where you would do your teacher training in Lusaka and then go really remote in the bush, which is where they went.
Couple of hippies, had mein the middle of nowhere.
and it's interesting you know, Idon't remember that much, but of course they then had friends and they talked about it and then they then decided that they wanted to do something similar before their two children were in secondary school.
(21:41):
So that's why we went to Papua New Guinea.
But I think what that left to me is takerisks, and, they gave up their job, they went to Zambia and then they came back, they didn't have a job, I think we were living with family, and then they got a job, and then they gave up a job, went to PNG, and when we came back, I know
they didn't have jobs, my dad went anddid a masters, so they were willing to take risks for the experience, and the experience both for us as children, experience for them, as adults, and I think I've really taken that on.
(22:13):
And I remember always wanting to liveabroad as a professional, but never wanting to go straight from university because I felt I wanted to add value.
And so whilst I say take risks andlike change, I worked for Sainsbury's for 17 years, so one could argue I don't like change, and I'm just leaving Living Goods after 10 years.
(22:34):
But within both organizations, I'veconstantly either gone after new opportunities or opened myself up and been very curious and got myself in positions to take on projects, Sainsbury's, I was seconded to Kenya actually for four months, my idea to look at things, I put the proposal together.
I've really always tried to embrace newways of looking at things and I've never been that focused on going up a ladder.
(23:02):
I remember my big promotion at Sainsbury'sto the level I was at before I left.
And the director who actually becamethe CEO, I remember him saying, Oh, Liz, I just assumed you were at that level.
I never realized you weren't.
And I was saying, that's sortof the compliment that you're already operating at that level.
And being at the levelwasn't that important.
(23:22):
Of course, you want tobe paid fairly, etc.
So.
I think I've been more embracing ofopportunities and learning, et cetera.
And I remember when I moved, so Itook a career break, so I wasn't quite brave enough to leave Sainsbury's.
I had a nice flat in London, nice salary.
I was doing more and morework on the development side.
(23:42):
I'd been working in fair trade andI was on the board of fair trade.
I had a couple of job offers, but itdidn't pay anywhere near I was on.
I wouldn't have been ableto afford my mortgage.
I hit 40, I was single, and I justthought, well, you weren't expecting that in your life, but actually that gives you the opportunity to do stuff others can't.
(24:02):
So, go on a career break, go travelling,go and learn to scuba dive and other things you always wanted to do.
And then I said I'd go to Kenyato do pro bono work with Fairtrade Africa because I knew I'd be bored travelling for a whole year.
And essentially I never went home.
So I took that leap again, rented outmy flat, realised a mortgage can be covered, I can live on very little money, relived a bit of my youth.
(24:28):
And was sort of gonna step off therat race and before I know it, I've been there 12 years and I'm CEO, and I was CEO after five, which was never expected, was not what I was trying to do.
But again, I think I was curious.
I asked questions.
I challenged things, strategy.
And so I was asked to do different things.
So, yeah, I do think a lot ofit I can blame on my parents.
(24:54):
Don't we all?
But I love what you said aboutthe risks for the experience.
that that's what your parentsinstilled in you, which is incredible.
And so many of us might nevertake the risks for the experience.
And it becomes that mathematicalequation, doesn't it?
You look at the numbers.
(25:16):
And as somebody reminded me, andit helped me write my book, because numbers don't make decisions, people do.
And often you just have to step away fromthe logic and the rational and go with actually just creating possibilities.
and I have to keep reminding myself rightnow, because I'm doing exactly the same.
(25:37):
I've left a job I love, a salarywhich is great, a place I live that is wonderful, and I'm giving it up.
And like, people look at me and theygo, what are you going to do next?
And I go, I don't know.
I've been fortunate I can save some money.
But yeah, my logic goes, youidiot, what are you doing?
You've got bills to pay.
You idiot.
(25:58):
your husband has a startup, hedoesn't make any money, but he works really hard, what craziness is it?
And obviously I do feel like thatat times, but then I just think I've done it all the way through my career and look where it got me.
I wouldn't be in thisposition if I hadn't done it.
And what's the worst that can happen?
I'm in a very, very fortunateposition and other people, don't get to make these types of decisions because they do have commitments.
(26:22):
I wouldn't allow them to.
So I, I try and remind myself, even ifoccasionally in the middle of the night, I do go into a little bit of a panic.
And I think that that'sabsolutely fair enough.
And, cause I prettymuch did the same, Liz.
I left every single jobwithout another job to go to.
And I moved country as well.
Yeah.
(26:44):
it never really bothered me.
And.
I think there's a great way to be ableto reflect on yourself and know that actually I managed this before and that really helps having those experiences, taking the risk, being curious, open to possibilities and all of that.
you've talked about being with livinggoods then for 10 years, which is, that's a fair whack of time as well and in different roles and everything.
(27:09):
But, it's like, Since you've been CEO,you've led a team of over 450 people across four countries and the U.
S.
And the press release that went outmentioned that you've built an exceptional leadership team and culture, as well as being a shining role model and mentor.
(27:30):
And you talked about make the culture,making it a great place to work and also the high performing team.
So what makes a great place to workand what makes a high performing team?
Yeah.
Great questions and probably need tostart writing this down, but I mentioned before, I'm very results focused.
(27:55):
I sort of like to get stuff done andI'm not a fluffy leader as some people might call it, fun for me at work is, we had a great workshop, not, that lunch or that, you know, evening out.
But on saying that.
I know that's really important to a lot ofpeople and to get results, you need people to be highly engaged and feel very valued.
(28:15):
So I think when I became CEO, I reallyrecognized I had a responsibility.
just to bring that to life when Ibecame CEO and it was announced.
And as I said, this was six plusyears ago, and it was a surprise to me as well as the organization.
And I had so many emails.
(28:37):
mainly from women in my organization,quite junior, saying, I never thought I'd be led by a woman.
I, I'm so, impressed thatyou've been promoted within.
It gives me hope for my career.
And I was like, Oh my goodness,I've got all this responsibility.
People are looking up to me.
(28:58):
And so I really took that on andparticularly the women thing., I've been very fortunate in my career not having too many barriers and I thought, wow, especially in the African continent where I was at, this is so critical.
So part of what I really wantedto do culture wise was show up and spend time and be intentional about spending time with the team.
(29:19):
And of course, as a planner, thatmeant I had to really plan to be able to fit that in, because I think the first six months, I thought, how am I going to do any of this?
I'm just spending time on callswith funders and trying to do this and trying to do that.
So, I joked, I know exactly when I'm goingon holiday every year because I plan.
I'm visiting Burkina Faso here,Kenya here, Uganda here, US here.
(29:39):
I've got this bigmeeting, this big meeting.
And so for me it was about reallydedicating time to different levels of the organization and doing that in a systematic way so that they knew that two or three times a year I'm visiting and I'm spending time with these groups of people.
And that to me makes a huge difference.
(30:00):
and obviously, even during COVID I thenwould do it in a virtual type of way.
but I think I was also able tobring in some of the private sector.
investments like a big organizationthat Sainsbury's has done into a quite a relatively small organization.
And so that was about having a highperforming executive team that required making some tough decisions on some people, investing in executive coaching, leadership courses, just really working together, and having retreats, as teams, as we never did before.
(30:34):
I really then.
started to work on particularly inthe last two or three years on the level below my executive team because a we need that succession thinking there and it's tricky and And also the feedback continued to come through.
So I did external surveys.
We call them voices surveys every yearand it continued to get feedback about not understanding how decisions were made.
(31:04):
So then being very clear that we wouldhave steer codes for certain decisions, and we'd have a mixture of people, but then introducing something called RAPID, which is a way of making decisions.
So RAPID is about, you have a recommender,you have somebody who agrees to the recommendation, you have input into that, recommendation, and then the decision, and then the performance.
(31:26):
it's actually harder than it sounds andeven now we're not quite there, but it starts to get the team below to come up with recommendations, be very clear on who they've got input from, who's agreed to it, and proactively thinking who needs to make this decision at what level.
this evolved to also havinga much stronger delegation of authority and decision making frameworks which we put in place.
(31:50):
So a lot of effort on decisionmaking, both the process, the transparency, and who.
Still not perfect, but alot of work around that.
I think the other thing that I investedin, particularly post COVID, because I think people hadn't been together like in many places, but it was really tough in Uganda as one really tough lockdowns there is we also try to do a lot more work on safe spaces to speak up, particularly when you got a lot of my stuff are remote working in quite rural areas.
(32:23):
And we've had this facilitatorwho's really supported having uncomfortable conversations.
and, that exercise of psychologicalsafety and having those conversations.
And I've been in a room and seen thingsput on the board, which is horrendous.
And, my leaders around me, I've said,look, I could take that and say, I want to resign tomorrow because it's failed.
(32:44):
Or I can say, wow, thank goodnesspeople are willing to say that.
And what can we do about it?
So trying to lead by example,being present, but having a lot of these frameworks in place, has been really important.
Where did you get thisexperience from yourself, Liz?
(33:04):
are you a natural born leader?
you said you worked forSainsbury's, was it coaching?
You had leadership, like,where did it come from?
well, I, I don't thinkI'm a charismatic leader.
You know, you get some leaders that standup, in front of you and everyone's like blown away I'm not that sort of person.
(33:25):
I, I have to be really prepared.
I, I sort of write dial it up,Liz, now you've got to do this.
But I think what I feel more comfortablewith is having good frameworks in place.
and for me, that also means thatif I'm not there, then, and it will, the leadership team, you can embed it much stronger.
So that's why, really investing inexternal surveys, which is what we used to do at Sainsbury's for sure.
(33:49):
But then creating plans that are tangibleand you show what you've actually done from it is really important.
And I really believe that you have todo what you say and you have to provide it or say why you're no longer doing it.
The other area I spent time on wasactually our values and our mission.
And whilst I didn't adjust them thatmuch, when I became CEO, I spent a lot of time talking about them and going through them and they're saying, and you know what, this is what we do.
(34:14):
the mission is our guide railof what we do and don't do.
Our values are how we behave andthis is how we, and I'm going to talk about it regularly.
so I learned a lot of that from,Sainsbury's, I'll be honest.
but even when I was on the Board of FairTrade, I've always had a focus on people.
I headed up a committee That supportedall the fair trade organizations around the world on their HR people and thinking about best practices.
(34:40):
When I was at Sainsbury's, I alwaysled the performance management reviews and talent review process.
So again, I've really sort ofbrought thinking about talent.
I've hired people from the private sector.
I have amazing.
People team, most of them havecome from the private sector.
and having that fortunate fundingability to allow me to, have executive coaches to have mentoring programs to think about work shadowing and I talked about how I'm not hierarchical.
(35:09):
It's very embedded in the African culture.
And so to try and create for peopleto see that they can grow by moving sideways or even within their role by taking different things on leading projects has been a real focus for me.
there's another podcast.
called Squiggly Careers, whichactually an ex Sainsbury's person is on, which is why I started listening to it, who, who takes it.
(35:33):
So I use that frame,Squiggly Careers, a lot.
I even got them to do some videos for us.
So for me, Squiggly Careers and, andsquiggly thinking is, is another legacy because for me, that's so important.
I
there's a lot I took from Sainsbury's.
I, I banned the word head office, whichI remember happening at Sainsbury's.
We were a support centre.
Same with us, we don't have head offices,we have global offices or support centers.
(35:58):
I have an upside down structure chart,which is, okay, a piece of paper, but again, I show me at the bottom, and I'll work in the rural areas and the, the country work at the top, and then the support underneath it.
And so I always try and setthese tones, even if it's
to try and demonstrate what we'retrying to get to as an ethos, even if we're not always there.
(36:23):
I think if you asked anybodyat Sainsbury's, what are they going to miss about Liz?
Sorry, anybody at Living Goods, whatare they going to miss when I leave?
They're going to say myMonday morning email.
And this actually was an idea fromone of my staff who said, why don't you write an email every morning?
She'd read it somewhereelse and done that.
(36:43):
And I was like, I don'thave the time to do that.
I'm not an actual writer.
I said, I'll try it.
I've done it probably for three or fouryears and it's to show the human side.
So I talk about what happened lastweek, what I'm prioritizing this week.
I talk about what I did at theweekend, what I did on holiday, what I'm struggling with, something I've read and how it resonates.
(37:08):
last week I wrote about.
different ways of delegatingthat I've read and we all need to get better at delegating.
I tell you, takes up probablyan hour of my time a week.
I collect things as I go alongand put them in a folder.
It, it is the most, I, I can't believe howmuch of an effect and the staff love it.
I can't wait till Monday morningand I read you all and I'm like, and this, I think this is the thing, there are small things I think you can do.
(37:34):
That have such an outsized impact everynew member of staff that joins they get an email me on the day they arrive.
Anybody who's promotedgets an email from me.
and so I've tried to find things thatare tangible that have outsized impact.
But aren't going to, you know,like somebody said you have to write a birthday message.
I'm going 400 birthdays a year.
(37:54):
No, I can't do that.
But I can write for anybody who's beenpromoted or moves squiggles and moves a different direction or any new staff member that joins, I can write that.
And.
Yeah, and I alwayscelebrate people who leave.
I think we should celebrate peoplewho, their time is up and it's time for them to go elsewhere you know, celebrate that they spent their time with us for the time they did.
(38:16):
So
Wow.
mixture of a lot of learningfrom Sainsbury's for sure.
Yes.
that the, what comes out most forme from that, there were, there's a lot of things, but recognition.
I think the recognition is a hugepart of who you are as a leader.
And, and, and it's, it's, We thinkit's a small thing, but it's, like you say, that outsized impact is just incredible, isn't it?
(38:44):
Because it's all any of us reallywant, is to be recognized for who we are and what we do and how we show up, and that someone cares about us.
And,
Yeah, and, and, I remember doingone of these surveys you do in your leadership, over the years and one of them was about how much do you need and I actually don't need a lot, but I remember having a wake up call that in my team at the time somebody I was struggling with needed a huge amount.
(39:13):
I mean, this must be 15, 20 years agoand I remember her clearly and I was like, that's where I've been going wrong.
but it's hard because then youhave to give recognition in a very, genuine way, but I think that was a really pivotal moment in my career.
I think you've summed it up brilliantly.
I hadn't thought about it thatway, that you do need to give recognition, even if you don't feel you need it in the same way.
(39:35):
and I know I'm probably more ofthe outlier than the norm, so yeah.
I'm being mindful of that.
yeah, and it doesn't really matter,I mean, there's no formula, is there?
I mean, there are, that's theproblem, there are formulas, and they're not really working, are they?
what you talked about as well, aboutbringing, like the decision making because I think that often in an organization, it's really hard to know how people make decisions.
(40:02):
And even like, I worked as a director indifferent organizations and, you really put a lot into making the decision and you've almost forgotten by the time you got there, what you went through.
And then you come out and tell peopleand they're like, well, I can't believe that that's what happened.
So I think opening thatup, but also pushing it.
down, maybe not pushing isn't theright word, but enabling it up.
(40:24):
That's huge because some of thesedecisions are massive and have huge consequences as well and the more people are involved.
The greater buy in to get through as well.
Well, I think that's it.
And that's why I like this rapid processbecause I like the input and agreeing to the recommendation on a say you're making the decision because I think it takes the pressure off a bit, but you feel like you've been part of the process.
(40:49):
I think there's a word I actually don'tlike the word empowerment, because I think it's overused and it and what I realized in our team is a lot of the staff weren't willing to take the power.
So they were being empowered,but they weren't in a position to want to take the power.
Which is why I said stop sayingI've empowered you, it's a lot more complex than that.
(41:12):
And so working with them to help them wantto take the power, take the decision, feel confident that they've really considered it and got input from other people, and be able to articulate what it is they're recommending, has taken a lot more time, but I think does bring people with you.
I think the other thing I saw wasthe other extreme where decisions were being made by consensus.
(41:34):
so slow, and then very,very, They weren't risky
Yeah, wet and weak almost, yeah.
to the lowest common denominator.
So again, this is almost with my executiveteam saying that sometimes you have to make decisions and then you bring people along with you on the journey rather than wait for everybody to catch up.
(41:56):
And that's not always going tobe the place, but remember, you do have to bring them with you.
So I think that's.
That's something else.
And I also remember during COVID,I started, again, from Sainsbury's, I worked in sort of the food safety side of things, food quality, food safety, and you had issues, you know, if there was a product that wasn't safe, you had to act quickly, because there were people's lives at stake.
(42:17):
So I was used to managing incidents,crises, in a very way, always on a Friday, of course, you nudes.
when COVID hit and it startedgetting big, I, I just went into my action mode, but I delegated to some of my staff, can you do this?
Can you come up with that?
Can you think about the triggersthat we would do this on the other?
And they were just completely lost.
(42:37):
And I just realized, again, this isprobably classic situational leadership.
Okay.
I'm rolling myself.
sleeves up, I'm getting stuck in, I amdoing this, I'm leading this, I'm doing this, and when you need to go in and when you need to make fast decisions and, and move things forward, and, and then making sure you step back up.
So I think that's the other side of it,is being willing to make those decisions when they require it, But when they don't, how do you facilitate others feeling comfortable to make decisions?
(43:06):
Absolutely.
It's like the burning building, isn't it?
You have to get out.
But most of the time it's not on fire.
And so, yeah, you can be a bit morethoughtful in, in the decision.
And I think it's funny,consensus, decision making by consensus is just so painful.
And yet, What is it, do youthink, Liz, that drives people down that road so often?
(43:32):
Fear, fear of making thosedecisions, fear of getting it wrong.
I often say, what's theworst that can happen?
if it doesn't work, then we'llundo it, and, and think about that.
And, and that really came through when wewere pulling together our decision making framework and our delegation of authority.
It's like, what's theworst that can happen?
Well, if the organization is going togo completely pear shaped, then that probably doesn't sit at that level.
But you know what?
(43:53):
If it means we just have to.
stop something, pause andadjust, then that's okay.
So I think it's the fear of failureI think is part of it and just feeling comfortable with others.
I don't know, I mean, we all havesounding boards that we use and we sense check things for sure.
and I'm very much, talk it throughwith someone, maybe not everyone to get viewpoint, but then be very clear on where we're at.
(44:17):
Fairtrade was an interesting organizationbecause it represented farmers and I did a bit of work there for a couple of years, but, it is all about collaborating and representation and it's so slow and so painful and I'd been in a fast moving retail environment.
I adjusted my head in to be honest.
I think it's got its placedon't get me wrong but it's what you're suited to as well.
(44:40):
Well, it's also, you don't know oftenwhat's behind a lot of the delays, because it's often quite political, or it can be, and I think in, like, I spent a fair portion of my career in Africa as well, and you don't know what pressures people are coming under that they bring into the office.
So it's never straightforward, is it?
Like, it's, yeah, there's,there's lots of moving parts.
(45:05):
I saw a tweet that you did, I've seenthe power of radical collaboration we have a deliberate focus on forging strong alliances we can be transformative about the change we enact.
And I think you've talked about thattoday because even how you talk about how you work with your team and the teams that the way it flows down is a form of radical collaboration.
(45:29):
Yeah, you know what?
I, I ban the word competition.
I've talked a lot about comingfrom Sainsbury's food retail, highly competitive environment.
When I moved into more workingin the development sector, I was shocked that it felt as competitive.
And I think that's down to a lotof the funding mechanisms which is just terrible in my opinion.
(45:52):
and we're trying to solve huge problemsand You just can't do it alone.
And I think that's part of, theissues with the development sector and why we haven't made some progress.
There's been brilliant progress,but not some progress in some areas.
And I think it is thissort of competitive nature.
So I ban the word.
and I think it's so important tothink about what you do really well.
(46:19):
And then you are able to focus atbeing excellent at that and recognize others are excellent at other bits and therefore you have to work with others.
Now that could be withinyour organization.
I'm not great at stuff and Iwant people to be better than me.
I would say I want people better than mein my team because they're going to make me look good and make my life easier.
But it's the sameoutside the organization.
(46:40):
Like if somebody is so much betterat government engagement or speaking or doing this, it's the same.
let them be the advocate for thisor do this and we stick to our lane.
so yeah, that's really important to me.
I think it can be difficult ifnot everybody's on the same page.
I'm in a field where a lot ofsimilar organizations in my space are actually American led, American driven, American funded as a way we, my founder is American.
(47:10):
We were based there untilI shifted it all to Africa.
and Americans are more, I think,typically than the British.
We are typically more reserved,and I'm probably on that, definitely on that spectrum.
So, I naturally also answer rah, rah,rah, rah, rah, and look at us, look at us.
I'm, I always say it's amazingwhat you can do if you don't take the credit for it, especially when you're working with government.
(47:32):
Do I sometimes do that too much youstill have to shout, funders want to know their money's doing well.
I think I've learned to actually dialit back up a bit, but I still don't think you should be competitive.
I think you just need to be able totalk confidently about what you've done and what you're achieving, which maybe I dialed down a little bit, but I do think that the only way to really make change is if you find great.
(47:56):
like minded organizations, likeminded people in your team, who are like minded, in terms of the vision and where we're heading to is the importance bit, they can come at it from totally different angles, but yeah.
for me, radical collaboration is also,you know, feeling comfortable to pull people up saying, is that really working?
Do we need to changesomething or what's worked?
(48:18):
What's not worked?
And, and I'm following the evidence ratherthan just because this was your plan.
It's funny, isn't it, that we have to puta word radical in front of it in one way because really all it is is being open and honest and actually, you know, like really getting down and dirty and understanding it and not taking it personally and not assigning blame and all of those things.
(48:41):
But we have to like almost couch it
Right.
You shouldn't say that at all.
It's terrible, isn't it?
Because we have to say it'snot the normal collaboration.
it's funny but I totally get that.
Liz, we're almost out of time and Ijust wanted to ask you one question because there was something that you picked up on about celebrating levers.
(49:02):
Yes.
about to leave yourself, but forpeople that are listening, that may be in an organisation and don't typically celebrate leaders, but make them feel like a leper as they go out the door, what would you say to them
Absolutely.
No, I think, I mean, I dolook back and I'm incredibly proud of what I've delivered.
(49:28):
I mean, I must admit, I had to write a CVthe other day because somebody did ask for one, and I hadn't written one, and it was like, wow, I don't even know what, there's so much to put in here, so, I think taking the time to actually really think about, what you've achieved and what it was like when you came in and what it's like now.
And whether you've made the choice orsomebody's made the choice for you, it is probably the right time and, and there'll be great things that will build on your, what you've learned and experienced.
(49:55):
Even if it has been painful along theway, it will take you on to the next thing I'm still trying to work out whether it's another big role for me or whether I do more of a portfolio approach and support different organizations.
I'm not sure yet.
I'm trying to be relaxed about it, butI just know I've learned a huge amount.
I've had a real privilege.
This is the pinnacle of my career.
I've had a privilege of leading anamazing organization, learning a lot, getting some stuff wrong that I want to help others going forward.
(50:22):
So, celebrate what you'veachieved and then think how you can take that on going forward.
And I think don't be afraid to squiggleis like what's come out of that as well.
wiggle away, I love it.
Squiggle away.
Liz, if anyone would like toconnect with you, offer you a job, whatever is, how might they do so?
(50:44):
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm happyfor you to share emails, whatever,
I'll put your LinkedIn, into the,yeah, and people can connect that way.
It's probably the easiest.
Yeah.
and I'm still at Living Goods foranother till December, so, you know,
Yeah, yeah.
But that might be a threeyear transition as well.
You never know.
exactly, exactly, but yeah,no, this has been really great to have this conversation.
(51:06):
It helps me think about what'snext, so thank you, Susan.
You're very welcome.
that's even better.
I love to hear that.
No, thank you, Liz.
And you've been very genuine insharing your experience and I've really enjoyed where we've gone today.
So thank you so much for that.
Wonderful.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(51:27):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(51:47):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
Hello, and welcome to life beyondthe numbers, the podcast, for those curious about creating a more fulfilling work life.
Every business boils down totwo basics people and money.
Here we focus on the human side.
Numbers masher, but people matter most.
(00:23):
And people drive performance.
I'm Susan On your host, a coachconsultant, facilitator, and author of leading beyond the numbers.
It brings me joy to speak to peopleand explore together how, although we share many similarities as humans each of us navigates the world through our own unique lens.
(00:51):
This adds intricacy to ourinteractions and contributes to both the depth and difficulties of interpersonal relationships.
Join us for stories, strategies,and insights to help you lead your life beyond the numbers.
(01:15):
Today I am delighted to welcome LizJarman to Life Beyond the Numbers.
Liz, you're so welcome.
Great to be here with you.
Thank you.
and the number we're going for thistime is a little bit different because maybe it's the number of years in the organization, you've been in, and to that point, earlier this year, I saw a post you put out on LinkedIn announcing your departure as CEO of Living Goods.
(01:43):
And announcing your successor.
And also saying that none of this wouldtake place until January 1st, 2025.
So you gave this huge lead in to leavingand you already have your successor.
Now, we talk a lot, I think, inorganizations about succession planning and getting this part right, but it's not something I've seen personally done very well, often, if ever.
(02:12):
So Liz, maybe talk us through a littlebit, your thinking, was it your thinking?
Was it something in your contract?
How did this come about?
Well, I think, first of all, I am aplanner, naturally, but on saying that, I've never been a very good career planner about thinking what's next, so, I plan to get stuff done, I know exactly all my holidays for the next year, et cetera,
(02:38):
but when I first became CEO, itwas a surprise, I'll be honest.
I was an internal candidate aswell, but my predecessor left with just three months notice.
No discussion on succession planning.
I wasn't really ready for it.
It was a huge shock and I had toreally think about whether it was something I wanted to be considered for.
So I think that was always inthe back of my mind that I didn't want the organization to be thrown into a bit of a shock.
(03:02):
That was the case, when I took over.
The second thing is I had areally fantastic board member.
she's my, mentor and shegave me some great advice.
She said.
Very early on, within my firstsix months, she said, Liz, how long do you want to be CEO for?
I had an open ended contract.
And I went, oh, she said, have a thinkabout it, because that helps you sharpen what your legacy is you want to leave.
(03:29):
And so I was like, whew, this reallyplays into me being a planner.
I'm going to say at least five years.
And so it did.
It really gave me a point of what doI want to achieve in five years time?
and I also started to think about, okay.
I probably want to leave so there's theopportunity for me to do another potential big job or something quite different before, you're really into You're 60s.
(03:58):
I'm not there.
I'm early 50s now.
but I was thinking, Oh, actually itgets quite important thinking about timing at this stage in your career.
And do I want to finish my careerin this role or do I want to have the opportunity to try something else or do different types of work?
So five years felt about right.
That would take me up to around being 50.
(04:19):
When I got closer to five years andbearing in mind we'd just be coming out of COVID, which was obviously an intense period for everyone, particularly, I'm based in Africa, and it was really tricky there.
I felt I had another two years left.
So I said to the board, look, I know Isaid five years, but I'd actually like to do another two years, but I really want to start thinking about what is the process you want to go through?
(04:43):
And I explained why another two years.
I explained I wanted to leave on ahigh and things were going really well.
we were just kicking off a strategicplan, a five year strategic plan that seemed to be going well.
So I said, in two years time,we'll be halfway through.
So it allows somebody to come in,get their feet under the table and then, Plan for the next strategic plan, and the timing and all the other things I've talked about.
(05:07):
So I gave them a rationale forwhy I wanted another two years.
They were very grateful.
But I did say I want to starttalking about a process which was like, Oh, okay, that's.
not a plan, a process.
And so we then took our time over two orthree board meetings, we talked about what were the key decisions that needed to be made and the timing of those decisions.
(05:29):
Could I assess if there's anyinternal potential candidates, and what that might look like?
And we also agreed to set upa subcommittee of the board.
we probably talked about the processover three to six months, or probably six months more actually I came up then with that guidance of these are the decisions.
(05:49):
These are potential internalcandidates that I'm thinking through.
And with the subcommittee, we decidedto also bring in an external consultant to help map the, the sort of CEO mapping landscape, the trends that were happening, but also she helped to advise us on CEO transition, but also the broader leadership was happening at the chair of the board level.
(06:16):
Who's the deputy to the CEO?
How does it impact at C suite level?
So we looked at a number of differentareas as well under her guidance.
So we really took our time thinkingabout the leadership of the organization, potential successors, and that allowed us to be very well prepared.
we had a number of steps of decisionmaking, which allowed us, you know, for me to really recommend an internal candidate.
(06:43):
allowed time for her to go on anexecutive assessment center, have an executive coach really over a year before the decision was made, raise her profile with the board and externally.
Allowed me to really understand with my Csuite where everybody else was at in their careers because I knew somebody else was likely going to be leaving similar time.
(07:04):
So I was able to have a reallyopen conversation and we agreed to stagger it by six months.
So it was hyper planned and then wedecided to communicate early because it was an internal appointment so that my successor could go on sabbatical.
But we could kick off the hiringprocess for her replacement and my other C suite person leaving before she went on sabbatical.
(07:30):
So that was really the driver sothat she was set up for success.
She had a team in place from day one,and actually they're going to be in place before she even becomes CEO.
and things are going well.
And I think the last thing to sayis, I know, having done it, change is hard for any organisation, and particularly at CEO level, that I think it's much easier if the organisation is doing well, and it's well planned.
(07:55):
And I'm feeling in a really goodplace, as I enter my last few months, that, this was the right thing to do.
Wow.
I mean, that's so thoughtful andwhat you talk about there, Liz.
I think in one way like COVIDalmost took two years out for you completely, so you're
(08:15):
I felt.
Yeah.
yeah, and I can understandthat because I think a lot of people probably felt like that.
And so did you advertise this positionat all or did you just focus internally?
I know you said you broughtexternal consultant in, but what was that part like?
well, I agreed as part of the processthat there were three options.
(08:37):
We either just appoint internally, we goto market, but consider internal as well, so a hybrid, or we just go to market.
So the first thing I did with the boardwas, present the internal candidates.
and of course she also had to really thinkabout whether it was right for her too.
So she was very aware that, shereally needed to think this through and that was part of this process.
(08:59):
and we very much wanted to investin her on this assessment centers and things like that, regardless CEO, she's just a super leader, whether it was with the living goods.
We wanted to invest in her.
So we spent this time and theboard getting to know her more.
And the first decision that wasmade is she is a credible candidate.
(09:20):
Not necessarily she's the only candidate,but she's the credible candidate.
So that got rid of one ofthe processes, external only.
So it's either internal onlyor internal and external.
The next thing we did iswe did a market mapping.
So the consultant came in, gave profiles,talked about, what they're seeing, their experience when they place CEOs into roles and that typically it takes them a year to get up and running.
(09:46):
And what really helped facilitate some ofthe questions and some of the discussions.
One was that my successoris not an African.
One of the questions, one of thediscussions was how important is it to have an African?
She also has extensiveexperience living in Africa.
She was Uganda country director,but doesn't currently for family reasons, but travels extensively.
(10:11):
We discussed whether that was anissue, but the main thing that really sort of was the main discussion was Where are we doing as an organization?
Do we need somebody to come in andshift things around and adjust things?
Is the strategy not working?
and some of those discussionswere obviously without me there.
But the conclusion from the boardis things are going really well.
(10:32):
We're on track.
The last thing we want todo is slow anything down.
So if we have a credibleinternal candidate.
That is our desired route.
We did discuss some of those other aspectsand in fact the Africans on the board were all very vocal that it's about deep lived experience and it is about a continuation of the strategy that is most important.
(10:54):
However, we did then enter in adifferent conversations about succession pipelines and how it would be absolutely critical that her replacement, so her deputy, was an African and in fact we've just I've done that higher.
And secondly, we would move to aco chair role with an African co chairing the board and eventually taking on the chairing of the board.
(11:21):
So we would continue on a journey tohave much more African representation than we did 10 years ago when I started at the organization.
We've got significantly better.
since I've been CEO, but we move iteven further, but don't make that big leap just for the sake of it right now.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
(11:42):
And you were an internal candidate,so there was that continuity, and continuity is massive.
And I really like what you say,well, things were going well, so we don't need to disrupt everything.
We have the right candidate,but also you are bringing in new people by replacing her.
Now, I'm assuming that person iscoming from outside the organization actually, but there is some disruption, which is always helpful too, I think.
(12:07):
Yeah.
And it's interesting.
I had a long conversation with actuallyour chief people and culture officer about that role, her successor, which is on sort of the deputy role.
If you like, of course we did advertisethat internally, And, and whilst there were a number of candidates almost ready, not quite, but we did have a, a lean towards external because I do think you still need new blood into the organisation.
(12:32):
And so the two C suite roles thatare new, her replacement, somebody else that has left, are external.
And I think that also allowed mysuccessor, to shape what she needed for her to be successful, which could be different to what I needed.
Of course, I've helped very much with therecruitment process, but it's really her call because it's her team in the future.
(12:54):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And Liz, you talked about thatquestion that the board member asked you, your mentor about your legacy.
So what is your legacy for living goods?
Well, we've evolved alot as an organization.
when I took over, we just got abig influx of funding, but that funding needed match funding.
(13:20):
So it was a big pressure to raise a lotof money, but then get a lot of money.
So we were scaling really rapidly.
So part of I think what I have focusedon was how do we scale in a sustainable way with and how do we maintain our culture, which is, I think, quite a unique culture in the not for profit world.
(13:46):
Because a lot of us, myself included,come from the private sector.
And so we have a bit of a privatesector mindset on how we work, how we focus on return on investment, results, and quick testing and pivoting.
we have a lot of what wecall unrestricted funding.
So it's almost like you develop a businessplan and then you fundraise against it rather than do projects that are funded.
(14:06):
So that requires a really strong culture.
and so I really focused on.
improving our culture and makingsure it, it stood throughout COVID, but also with rapid scaling.
So culture is one areathat I'm really proud of.
culture to me includeshigh performing teams.
I think they go hand in hand.
It's not just, Oh, it'sa nice place to work.
(14:28):
it's high performing teams, but largelydriven because it's a great place to work.
So that's one thing.
I really, built a really I adjustedthe strategy, bringing the team along, bringing the board along, and I have a founder who's the chair of the board, so we've really changed quite a lot as an organization.
To move to working within a governmentsystem and with government taking the lead, rather than us being a parallel system to government, which I think is also really critical.
(14:59):
and then the other sort of, Iguess the other two areas I would say is one is a digital journey.
We're an organization that believesdigital tools are really game changer for driving results.
And I was able to.
You know, it's definitely not me, butunder my leadership, all three countries that we work in, the governments have now committed to digitize their community health workforce, which is massive.
(15:24):
And I would never haveexpected it, if I'm honest.
there's quite a lot of other things.
There's a big funding opportunityright now, which could be game changing that I'm going to be handing over, which is fantastic.
so I think lots of pivots andadjustments, and I'm probably.
One final thing, I've actuallyde investing in one country.
I'm reducing our size in one country.
(15:46):
And again, I wanted todo that before I left.
it feels the right time to do it.
we've had 10 years in this countrydoing amazing work, but with our government led strategy, it wasn't as aligned or affordable to continue doing direct implementation.
So we're really, Coming back to a muchtighter, smaller role there, while we work with getting the government to a place where they start taking it on.
(16:09):
But that required us to shrink down andhalve our workforce and our support.
But absolutely let, the country directorsowned it, led it, believes in it.
and it's hard letting go of staff, butI also wanted to do that before I left.
So it's all ready to go, for my successor.
Fantastic.
Wow.
There is so much in that, Liz.
(16:31):
I guess.
The transition, right from the timeyou made your mind up to the 31st of December, an, you knew all along in one way, it sounds like you haven't lost an ounce of interest, right?
From my perspective, which is oftenthe challenge I think in organizations when somebody makes up their mind that they're going and not only the person leaving starts to lose interest, but other people begin to lose interest.
(16:59):
leave you out of things because you're notgoing to be there and suddenly you're not invited into the meetings that you were.
And it can be a really, really difficultperiod, I think, for a lot of people.
So how have you navigatedall of that, Liz?
Yeah, it's a weird one because I,I mentioned this big new funding opportunity, which really my successor has owned, which was completely the right thing to do.
(17:28):
she is now on sabbatical, whichI'm thrilled about because she's getting re energized.
So the weird thing is, I'm having to getinto some details I never even used to get to, because I'm doing her job as well.
so it's almost the opposite right now.
It's like, oh my goodness, thereare things I'm having to, like, I'm sorry, you're gonna have to take me back, explain this, explain that, because I'm doing her job with.
(17:51):
A lot of her team are stepping up as well.
So in a way, right now, it's hyper busy.
She's back, I'm counting the days.
She's back in two weeks time.
and I'm thrilled she's had a break.
so, I think it's the next few monthswhich are going to be really weird.
Because we will bedeveloping our 2025 plan.
It's always a busy time.
Again, very intentional.
She took a sabbatical ahead of planning.
(18:12):
Because, it's not my plan, it's her plan.
But of course, I'vedone it, I'm used to it.
So.
Getting the balance rightin the next, three months is going to be really interesting.
same for, we have an annual big leadershipretreat, coming up and it's like, yeah, I still have to be, show up as the leader, but a lot of it is going to be deferring to her, deferring to her, or trying to not be maybe as vocal as I normally am.
(18:37):
So I can see it starting to happen.
And, we go to UN week in, in New York.
And I was just saying, I'm really, I'mnot sure whether I'm really needed there.
And if I am, I don't wantto feel like a spare part.
I think one of the things that has helpedthough is I said I'm actually not going to look for another job until I leave.
(18:58):
I'm gonna go take a break and I didsay to the board I'm available for two or three months if you need me as an advisor to come back, be behind the scenes and support in any way while I start looking for stuff.
So my head's not somewhere else.
I think that also helps.
Like, I am determined to leave this.
In the best possible way, andhow I can be most helpful.
(19:20):
But yeah, I do think the next threemonths are going to be a bit weird.
But luckily, you and your successorhave worked together already.
So that would probably make it,hopefully, a little bit less stressful.
Because I think if you broughtsomeone new in completely, that might cause a different dynamic again.
Exactly, I'm not sure how I'd feel.
(19:42):
there would be completely differentviews, and you can't really argue with it.
Yeah, and as you said, we've been workingvery closely, actually for ten years.
so we know each other reallywell, of course she adds different skills, but there are also things we're very similar on as well.
So, yes, it definitely is alot more helpful that way.
Well, good.
(20:03):
you talked about being a planner.
And, and I wondered about the transitionand looking back at your life.
Because transitions, like we've talkedabout, Can be, they can go on forever and they can be tricky to navigate and some people just want the results.
They want that new CEO and theykind of don't want to even bother with the bit in the middle.
(20:25):
But I wondered about your backgroundbecause you were born in Zambia, you spent time living in Papua New Guinea as a youngster and you've lived and worked in the UK and now you're in Africa.
How has that influenced your ability?
Other than the planning side, butto go with what's coming up or unfolding as well, I think, because there's uncertainty in all of that.
(20:52):
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, when you lookback, I think it definitely has shaped me.
And I think also, you know,my parents were teachers.
And they went to Zambia in 1968or 69, never travelled abroad, the first place they went was Zambia.
Left on graduation day.
(21:13):
Wow.
And, and went, they had a schemepost independence where you would do your teacher training in Lusaka and then go really remote in the bush, which is where they went.
Couple of hippies, had mein the middle of nowhere.
and it's interesting you know, Idon't remember that much, but of course they then had friends and they talked about it and then they then decided that they wanted to do something similar before their two children were in secondary school.
(21:41):
So that's why we went to Papua New Guinea.
But I think what that left to me is takerisks, and, they gave up their job, they went to Zambia and then they came back, they didn't have a job, I think we were living with family, and then they got a job, and then they gave up a job, went to PNG, and when we came back, I know
they didn't have jobs, my dad went anddid a masters, so they were willing to take risks for the experience, and the experience both for us as children, experience for them, as adults, and I think I've really taken that on.
(22:13):
And I remember always wanting to liveabroad as a professional, but never wanting to go straight from university because I felt I wanted to add value.
And so whilst I say take risks andlike change, I worked for Sainsbury's for 17 years, so one could argue I don't like change, and I'm just leaving Living Goods after 10 years.
(22:34):
But within both organizations, I'veconstantly either gone after new opportunities or opened myself up and been very curious and got myself in positions to take on projects, Sainsbury's, I was seconded to Kenya actually for four months, my idea to look at things, I put the proposal together.
I've really always tried to embrace newways of looking at things and I've never been that focused on going up a ladder.
(23:02):
I remember my big promotion at Sainsbury'sto the level I was at before I left.
And the director who actually becamethe CEO, I remember him saying, Oh, Liz, I just assumed you were at that level.
I never realized you weren't.
And I was saying, that's sortof the compliment that you're already operating at that level.
And being at the levelwasn't that important.
(23:22):
Of course, you want tobe paid fairly, etc.
So.
I think I've been more embracing ofopportunities and learning, et cetera.
And I remember when I moved, so Itook a career break, so I wasn't quite brave enough to leave Sainsbury's.
I had a nice flat in London, nice salary.
I was doing more and morework on the development side.
(23:42):
I'd been working in fair trade andI was on the board of fair trade.
I had a couple of job offers, but itdidn't pay anywhere near I was on.
I wouldn't have been ableto afford my mortgage.
I hit 40, I was single, and I justthought, well, you weren't expecting that in your life, but actually that gives you the opportunity to do stuff others can't.
(24:02):
So, go on a career break, go travelling,go and learn to scuba dive and other things you always wanted to do.
And then I said I'd go to Kenyato do pro bono work with Fairtrade Africa because I knew I'd be bored travelling for a whole year.
And essentially I never went home.
So I took that leap again, rented outmy flat, realised a mortgage can be covered, I can live on very little money, relived a bit of my youth.
(24:28):
And was sort of gonna step off therat race and before I know it, I've been there 12 years and I'm CEO, and I was CEO after five, which was never expected, was not what I was trying to do.
But again, I think I was curious.
I asked questions.
I challenged things, strategy.
And so I was asked to do different things.
So, yeah, I do think a lot ofit I can blame on my parents.
(24:54):
Don't we all?
But I love what you said aboutthe risks for the experience.
that that's what your parentsinstilled in you, which is incredible.
And so many of us might nevertake the risks for the experience.
And it becomes that mathematicalequation, doesn't it?
You look at the numbers.
(25:16):
And as somebody reminded me, andit helped me write my book, because numbers don't make decisions, people do.
And often you just have to step away fromthe logic and the rational and go with actually just creating possibilities.
and I have to keep reminding myself rightnow, because I'm doing exactly the same.
(25:37):
I've left a job I love, a salarywhich is great, a place I live that is wonderful, and I'm giving it up.
And like, people look at me and theygo, what are you going to do next?
And I go, I don't know.
I've been fortunate I can save some money.
But yeah, my logic goes, youidiot, what are you doing?
You've got bills to pay.
You idiot.
(25:58):
your husband has a startup, hedoesn't make any money, but he works really hard, what craziness is it?
And obviously I do feel like thatat times, but then I just think I've done it all the way through my career and look where it got me.
I wouldn't be in thisposition if I hadn't done it.
And what's the worst that can happen?
I'm in a very, very fortunateposition and other people, don't get to make these types of decisions because they do have commitments.
(26:22):
I wouldn't allow them to.
So I, I try and remind myself, even ifoccasionally in the middle of the night, I do go into a little bit of a panic.
And I think that that'sabsolutely fair enough.
And, cause I prettymuch did the same, Liz.
I left every single jobwithout another job to go to.
And I moved country as well.
Yeah.
(26:44):
it never really bothered me.
And.
I think there's a great way to be ableto reflect on yourself and know that actually I managed this before and that really helps having those experiences, taking the risk, being curious, open to possibilities and all of that.
you've talked about being with livinggoods then for 10 years, which is, that's a fair whack of time as well and in different roles and everything.
(27:09):
But, it's like, Since you've been CEO,you've led a team of over 450 people across four countries and the U.
S.
And the press release that went outmentioned that you've built an exceptional leadership team and culture, as well as being a shining role model and mentor.
(27:30):
And you talked about make the culture,making it a great place to work and also the high performing team.
So what makes a great place to workand what makes a high performing team?
Yeah.
Great questions and probably need tostart writing this down, but I mentioned before, I'm very results focused.
(27:55):
I sort of like to get stuff done andI'm not a fluffy leader as some people might call it, fun for me at work is, we had a great workshop, not, that lunch or that, you know, evening out.
But on saying that.
I know that's really important to a lot ofpeople and to get results, you need people to be highly engaged and feel very valued.
(28:15):
So I think when I became CEO, I reallyrecognized I had a responsibility.
just to bring that to life when Ibecame CEO and it was announced.
And as I said, this was six plusyears ago, and it was a surprise to me as well as the organization.
And I had so many emails.
(28:37):
mainly from women in my organization,quite junior, saying, I never thought I'd be led by a woman.
I, I'm so, impressed thatyou've been promoted within.
It gives me hope for my career.
And I was like, Oh my goodness,I've got all this responsibility.
People are looking up to me.
(28:58):
And so I really took that on andparticularly the women thing., I've been very fortunate in my career not having too many barriers and I thought, wow, especially in the African continent where I was at, this is so critical.
So part of what I really wantedto do culture wise was show up and spend time and be intentional about spending time with the team.
(29:19):
And of course, as a planner, thatmeant I had to really plan to be able to fit that in, because I think the first six months, I thought, how am I going to do any of this?
I'm just spending time on callswith funders and trying to do this and trying to do that.
So, I joked, I know exactly when I'm goingon holiday every year because I plan.
I'm visiting Burkina Faso here,Kenya here, Uganda here, US here.
(29:39):
I've got this bigmeeting, this big meeting.
And so for me it was about reallydedicating time to different levels of the organization and doing that in a systematic way so that they knew that two or three times a year I'm visiting and I'm spending time with these groups of people.
And that to me makes a huge difference.
(30:00):
and obviously, even during COVID I thenwould do it in a virtual type of way.
but I think I was also able tobring in some of the private sector.
investments like a big organizationthat Sainsbury's has done into a quite a relatively small organization.
And so that was about having a highperforming executive team that required making some tough decisions on some people, investing in executive coaching, leadership courses, just really working together, and having retreats, as teams, as we never did before.
(30:34):
I really then.
started to work on particularly inthe last two or three years on the level below my executive team because a we need that succession thinking there and it's tricky and And also the feedback continued to come through.
So I did external surveys.
We call them voices surveys every yearand it continued to get feedback about not understanding how decisions were made.
(31:04):
So then being very clear that we wouldhave steer codes for certain decisions, and we'd have a mixture of people, but then introducing something called RAPID, which is a way of making decisions.
So RAPID is about, you have a recommender,you have somebody who agrees to the recommendation, you have input into that, recommendation, and then the decision, and then the performance.
(31:26):
it's actually harder than it sounds andeven now we're not quite there, but it starts to get the team below to come up with recommendations, be very clear on who they've got input from, who's agreed to it, and proactively thinking who needs to make this decision at what level.
this evolved to also havinga much stronger delegation of authority and decision making frameworks which we put in place.
(31:50):
So a lot of effort on decisionmaking, both the process, the transparency, and who.
Still not perfect, but alot of work around that.
I think the other thing that I investedin, particularly post COVID, because I think people hadn't been together like in many places, but it was really tough in Uganda as one really tough lockdowns there is we also try to do a lot more work on safe spaces to speak up, particularly when you got a lot of my stuff are remote working in quite rural areas.
(32:23):
And we've had this facilitatorwho's really supported having uncomfortable conversations.
and, that exercise of psychologicalsafety and having those conversations.
And I've been in a room and seen thingsput on the board, which is horrendous.
And, my leaders around me, I've said,look, I could take that and say, I want to resign tomorrow because it's failed.
(32:44):
Or I can say, wow, thank goodnesspeople are willing to say that.
And what can we do about it?
So trying to lead by example,being present, but having a lot of these frameworks in place, has been really important.
Where did you get thisexperience from yourself, Liz?
(33:04):
are you a natural born leader?
you said you worked forSainsbury's, was it coaching?
You had leadership, like,where did it come from?
well, I, I don't thinkI'm a charismatic leader.
You know, you get some leaders that standup, in front of you and everyone's like blown away I'm not that sort of person.
(33:25):
I, I have to be really prepared.
I, I sort of write dial it up,Liz, now you've got to do this.
But I think what I feel more comfortablewith is having good frameworks in place.
and for me, that also means thatif I'm not there, then, and it will, the leadership team, you can embed it much stronger.
So that's why, really investing inexternal surveys, which is what we used to do at Sainsbury's for sure.
(33:49):
But then creating plans that are tangibleand you show what you've actually done from it is really important.
And I really believe that you have todo what you say and you have to provide it or say why you're no longer doing it.
The other area I spent time on wasactually our values and our mission.
And whilst I didn't adjust them thatmuch, when I became CEO, I spent a lot of time talking about them and going through them and they're saying, and you know what, this is what we do.
(34:14):
the mission is our guide railof what we do and don't do.
Our values are how we behave andthis is how we, and I'm going to talk about it regularly.
so I learned a lot of that from,Sainsbury's, I'll be honest.
but even when I was on the Board of FairTrade, I've always had a focus on people.
I headed up a committee That supportedall the fair trade organizations around the world on their HR people and thinking about best practices.
(34:40):
When I was at Sainsbury's, I alwaysled the performance management reviews and talent review process.
So again, I've really sort ofbrought thinking about talent.
I've hired people from the private sector.
I have amazing.
People team, most of them havecome from the private sector.
and having that fortunate fundingability to allow me to, have executive coaches to have mentoring programs to think about work shadowing and I talked about how I'm not hierarchical.
(35:09):
It's very embedded in the African culture.
And so to try and create for peopleto see that they can grow by moving sideways or even within their role by taking different things on leading projects has been a real focus for me.
there's another podcast.
called Squiggly Careers, whichactually an ex Sainsbury's person is on, which is why I started listening to it, who, who takes it.
(35:33):
So I use that frame,Squiggly Careers, a lot.
I even got them to do some videos for us.
So for me, Squiggly Careers and, andsquiggly thinking is, is another legacy because for me, that's so important.
I
there's a lot I took from Sainsbury's.
I, I banned the word head office, whichI remember happening at Sainsbury's.
We were a support centre.
Same with us, we don't have head offices,we have global offices or support centers.
(35:58):
I have an upside down structure chart,which is, okay, a piece of paper, but again, I show me at the bottom, and I'll work in the rural areas and the, the country work at the top, and then the support underneath it.
And so I always try and setthese tones, even if it's
to try and demonstrate what we'retrying to get to as an ethos, even if we're not always there.
(36:23):
I think if you asked anybodyat Sainsbury's, what are they going to miss about Liz?
Sorry, anybody at Living Goods, whatare they going to miss when I leave?
They're going to say myMonday morning email.
And this actually was an idea fromone of my staff who said, why don't you write an email every morning?
She'd read it somewhereelse and done that.
(36:43):
And I was like, I don'thave the time to do that.
I'm not an actual writer.
I said, I'll try it.
I've done it probably for three or fouryears and it's to show the human side.
So I talk about what happened lastweek, what I'm prioritizing this week.
I talk about what I did at theweekend, what I did on holiday, what I'm struggling with, something I've read and how it resonates.
(37:08):
last week I wrote about.
different ways of delegatingthat I've read and we all need to get better at delegating.
I tell you, takes up probablyan hour of my time a week.
I collect things as I go alongand put them in a folder.
It, it is the most, I, I can't believe howmuch of an effect and the staff love it.
I can't wait till Monday morningand I read you all and I'm like, and this, I think this is the thing, there are small things I think you can do.
(37:34):
That have such an outsized impact everynew member of staff that joins they get an email me on the day they arrive.
Anybody who's promotedgets an email from me.
and so I've tried to find things thatare tangible that have outsized impact.
But aren't going to, you know,like somebody said you have to write a birthday message.
I'm going 400 birthdays a year.
(37:54):
No, I can't do that.
But I can write for anybody who's beenpromoted or moves squiggles and moves a different direction or any new staff member that joins, I can write that.
And.
Yeah, and I alwayscelebrate people who leave.
I think we should celebrate peoplewho, their time is up and it's time for them to go elsewhere you know, celebrate that they spent their time with us for the time they did.
(38:16):
So
Wow.
mixture of a lot of learningfrom Sainsbury's for sure.
Yes.
that the, what comes out most forme from that, there were, there's a lot of things, but recognition.
I think the recognition is a hugepart of who you are as a leader.
And, and, and it's, it's, We thinkit's a small thing, but it's, like you say, that outsized impact is just incredible, isn't it?
(38:44):
Because it's all any of us reallywant, is to be recognized for who we are and what we do and how we show up, and that someone cares about us.
And,
Yeah, and, and, I remember doingone of these surveys you do in your leadership, over the years and one of them was about how much do you need and I actually don't need a lot, but I remember having a wake up call that in my team at the time somebody I was struggling with needed a huge amount.
(39:13):
I mean, this must be 15, 20 years agoand I remember her clearly and I was like, that's where I've been going wrong.
but it's hard because then youhave to give recognition in a very, genuine way, but I think that was a really pivotal moment in my career.
I think you've summed it up brilliantly.
I hadn't thought about it thatway, that you do need to give recognition, even if you don't feel you need it in the same way.
(39:35):
and I know I'm probably more ofthe outlier than the norm, so yeah.
I'm being mindful of that.
yeah, and it doesn't really matter,I mean, there's no formula, is there?
I mean, there are, that's theproblem, there are formulas, and they're not really working, are they?
what you talked about as well, aboutbringing, like the decision making because I think that often in an organization, it's really hard to know how people make decisions.
(40:02):
And even like, I worked as a director indifferent organizations and, you really put a lot into making the decision and you've almost forgotten by the time you got there, what you went through.
And then you come out and tell peopleand they're like, well, I can't believe that that's what happened.
So I think opening thatup, but also pushing it.
down, maybe not pushing isn't theright word, but enabling it up.
(40:24):
That's huge because some of thesedecisions are massive and have huge consequences as well and the more people are involved.
The greater buy in to get through as well.
Well, I think that's it.
And that's why I like this rapid processbecause I like the input and agreeing to the recommendation on a say you're making the decision because I think it takes the pressure off a bit, but you feel like you've been part of the process.
(40:49):
I think there's a word I actually don'tlike the word empowerment, because I think it's overused and it and what I realized in our team is a lot of the staff weren't willing to take the power.
So they were being empowered,but they weren't in a position to want to take the power.
Which is why I said stop sayingI've empowered you, it's a lot more complex than that.
(41:12):
And so working with them to help them wantto take the power, take the decision, feel confident that they've really considered it and got input from other people, and be able to articulate what it is they're recommending, has taken a lot more time, but I think does bring people with you.
I think the other thing I saw wasthe other extreme where decisions were being made by consensus.
(41:34):
so slow, and then very,very, They weren't risky
Yeah, wet and weak almost, yeah.
to the lowest common denominator.
So again, this is almost with my executiveteam saying that sometimes you have to make decisions and then you bring people along with you on the journey rather than wait for everybody to catch up.
(41:56):
And that's not always going tobe the place, but remember, you do have to bring them with you.
So I think that's.
That's something else.
And I also remember during COVID,I started, again, from Sainsbury's, I worked in sort of the food safety side of things, food quality, food safety, and you had issues, you know, if there was a product that wasn't safe, you had to act quickly, because there were people's lives at stake.
(42:17):
So I was used to managing incidents,crises, in a very way, always on a Friday, of course, you nudes.
when COVID hit and it startedgetting big, I, I just went into my action mode, but I delegated to some of my staff, can you do this?
Can you come up with that?
Can you think about the triggersthat we would do this on the other?
And they were just completely lost.
(42:37):
And I just realized, again, this isprobably classic situational leadership.
Okay.
I'm rolling myself.
sleeves up, I'm getting stuck in, I amdoing this, I'm leading this, I'm doing this, and when you need to go in and when you need to make fast decisions and, and move things forward, and, and then making sure you step back up.
So I think that's the other side of it,is being willing to make those decisions when they require it, But when they don't, how do you facilitate others feeling comfortable to make decisions?
(43:06):
Absolutely.
It's like the burning building, isn't it?
You have to get out.
But most of the time it's not on fire.
And so, yeah, you can be a bit morethoughtful in, in the decision.
And I think it's funny,consensus, decision making by consensus is just so painful.
And yet, What is it, do youthink, Liz, that drives people down that road so often?
(43:32):
Fear, fear of making thosedecisions, fear of getting it wrong.
I often say, what's theworst that can happen?
if it doesn't work, then we'llundo it, and, and think about that.
And, and that really came through when wewere pulling together our decision making framework and our delegation of authority.
It's like, what's theworst that can happen?
Well, if the organization is going togo completely pear shaped, then that probably doesn't sit at that level.
But you know what?
(43:53):
If it means we just have to.
stop something, pause andadjust, then that's okay.
So I think it's the fear of failureI think is part of it and just feeling comfortable with others.
I don't know, I mean, we all havesounding boards that we use and we sense check things for sure.
and I'm very much, talk it throughwith someone, maybe not everyone to get viewpoint, but then be very clear on where we're at.
(44:17):
Fairtrade was an interesting organizationbecause it represented farmers and I did a bit of work there for a couple of years, but, it is all about collaborating and representation and it's so slow and so painful and I'd been in a fast moving retail environment.
I adjusted my head in to be honest.
I think it's got its placedon't get me wrong but it's what you're suited to as well.
(44:40):
Well, it's also, you don't know oftenwhat's behind a lot of the delays, because it's often quite political, or it can be, and I think in, like, I spent a fair portion of my career in Africa as well, and you don't know what pressures people are coming under that they bring into the office.
So it's never straightforward, is it?
Like, it's, yeah, there's,there's lots of moving parts.
(45:05):
I saw a tweet that you did, I've seenthe power of radical collaboration we have a deliberate focus on forging strong alliances we can be transformative about the change we enact.
And I think you've talked about thattoday because even how you talk about how you work with your team and the teams that the way it flows down is a form of radical collaboration.
(45:29):
Yeah, you know what?
I, I ban the word competition.
I've talked a lot about comingfrom Sainsbury's food retail, highly competitive environment.
When I moved into more workingin the development sector, I was shocked that it felt as competitive.
And I think that's down to a lotof the funding mechanisms which is just terrible in my opinion.
(45:52):
and we're trying to solve huge problemsand You just can't do it alone.
And I think that's part of, theissues with the development sector and why we haven't made some progress.
There's been brilliant progress,but not some progress in some areas.
And I think it is thissort of competitive nature.
So I ban the word.
and I think it's so important tothink about what you do really well.
(46:19):
And then you are able to focus atbeing excellent at that and recognize others are excellent at other bits and therefore you have to work with others.
Now that could be withinyour organization.
I'm not great at stuff and Iwant people to be better than me.
I would say I want people better than mein my team because they're going to make me look good and make my life easier.
But it's the sameoutside the organization.
(46:40):
Like if somebody is so much betterat government engagement or speaking or doing this, it's the same.
let them be the advocate for thisor do this and we stick to our lane.
so yeah, that's really important to me.
I think it can be difficult ifnot everybody's on the same page.
I'm in a field where a lot ofsimilar organizations in my space are actually American led, American driven, American funded as a way we, my founder is American.
(47:10):
We were based there untilI shifted it all to Africa.
and Americans are more, I think,typically than the British.
We are typically more reserved,and I'm probably on that, definitely on that spectrum.
So, I naturally also answer rah, rah,rah, rah, rah, and look at us, look at us.
I'm, I always say it's amazingwhat you can do if you don't take the credit for it, especially when you're working with government.
(47:32):
Do I sometimes do that too much youstill have to shout, funders want to know their money's doing well.
I think I've learned to actually dialit back up a bit, but I still don't think you should be competitive.
I think you just need to be able totalk confidently about what you've done and what you're achieving, which maybe I dialed down a little bit, but I do think that the only way to really make change is if you find great.
(47:56):
like minded organizations, likeminded people in your team, who are like minded, in terms of the vision and where we're heading to is the importance bit, they can come at it from totally different angles, but yeah.
for me, radical collaboration is also,you know, feeling comfortable to pull people up saying, is that really working?
Do we need to changesomething or what's worked?
(48:18):
What's not worked?
And, and I'm following the evidence ratherthan just because this was your plan.
It's funny, isn't it, that we have to puta word radical in front of it in one way because really all it is is being open and honest and actually, you know, like really getting down and dirty and understanding it and not taking it personally and not assigning blame and all of those things.
(48:41):
But we have to like almost couch it
Right.
You shouldn't say that at all.
It's terrible, isn't it?
Because we have to say it'snot the normal collaboration.
it's funny but I totally get that.
Liz, we're almost out of time and Ijust wanted to ask you one question because there was something that you picked up on about celebrating levers.
(49:02):
Yes.
about to leave yourself, but forpeople that are listening, that may be in an organisation and don't typically celebrate leaders, but make them feel like a leper as they go out the door, what would you say to them
Absolutely.
No, I think, I mean, I dolook back and I'm incredibly proud of what I've delivered.
(49:28):
I mean, I must admit, I had to write a CVthe other day because somebody did ask for one, and I hadn't written one, and it was like, wow, I don't even know what, there's so much to put in here, so, I think taking the time to actually really think about, what you've achieved and what it was like when you came in and what it's like now.
And whether you've made the choice orsomebody's made the choice for you, it is probably the right time and, and there'll be great things that will build on your, what you've learned and experienced.
(49:55):
Even if it has been painful along theway, it will take you on to the next thing I'm still trying to work out whether it's another big role for me or whether I do more of a portfolio approach and support different organizations.
I'm not sure yet.
I'm trying to be relaxed about it, butI just know I've learned a huge amount.
I've had a real privilege.
This is the pinnacle of my career.
I've had a privilege of leading anamazing organization, learning a lot, getting some stuff wrong that I want to help others going forward.
(50:22):
So, celebrate what you'veachieved and then think how you can take that on going forward.
And I think don't be afraid to squiggleis like what's come out of that as well.
wiggle away, I love it.
Squiggle away.
Liz, if anyone would like toconnect with you, offer you a job, whatever is, how might they do so?
(50:44):
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm happyfor you to share emails, whatever,
I'll put your LinkedIn, into the,yeah, and people can connect that way.
It's probably the easiest.
Yeah.
and I'm still at Living Goods foranother till December, so, you know,
Yeah, yeah.
But that might be a threeyear transition as well.
You never know.
exactly, exactly, but yeah,no, this has been really great to have this conversation.
(51:06):
It helps me think about what'snext, so thank you, Susan.
You're very welcome.
that's even better.
I love to hear that.
No, thank you, Liz.
And you've been very genuine insharing your experience and I've really enjoyed where we've gone today.
So thank you so much for that.
Wonderful.
Thank you for joining me todayon life, beyond the numbers.
(51:27):
If something in this episode resonatedwith you, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
And if you've enjoyed this conversation,Please take a moment to leave a review.
It helps others like us.
I discover this podcast andjoin in our conversation.
(51:47):
Until next time.
Keep exploring thehuman side of work life.
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