December 4, 2019 • 31 mins
Adolescence is tough enough as it is -- but what happens when you throw Autism into the mix? In this episode, our teen and parent roundtables share their thoughts on the teenage years, and some of what they have to say may surprise you. Plus -- Katie speaks with Claire-Winson Jones, a psychologist at ABLE Development Clinic in Vancouver who works with teens on the spectrum. She offers some great advice about supporting your teen with ASD through their high school and post-secondary journey.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is a subject that I tend not to talk
about and am kind of happy not to talk about.
But I also kind of would be happy to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I've never actually had someone what to go out with
me before. In grade four, there was a rumor around that
this guy had a crush on me. But I think
he just wanted to be friends, personally.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
What I can understand is that someone liking you and
going out with you means that they see a special
side of you that no one else knows about.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No boy has ever asked me out and I have
never really asked any of the boys out in my school because, to
be honest, all the boys that I've come into contact
with, like in class and whatnot, they are annoying. My
mom keeps saying, " You're too young to be in a
relationship." But I personally get crushes on people every now and then.
Katie Bennison (00:49):
But would it matter if they have autism or not?
Would you prefer if it's someone that also has autism?
Or it doesn't matter?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I don't care, as long as they're cute, their nice,
and they're a feminist.
Katie Bennison (01:02):
Those are some teens from our autism round table talking
about dating. Hi, I'm Katie Bennison your host. And I'm
also the mom of a teenage daughter with autism. Welcome
to Life On The Spectrum
today, we're talking about the teenage years. And they can
be rough for anybody. Suddenly there's dating, texting, driving, social
(01:26):
media. Sometimes there's alcohol, drugs, or vaping. The academic demands
are different too. And kids start planning for their futures.
But what happens when you throw autism into the mix?
Well, as you heard from our teens, it can be
confusing. So, today we're talking about surviving adolescence and how
to best prepare young people with autism for the future.
(01:49):
A little later, we'll hear from some parents. But first,
I sat down with Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist
at the Able Development Clinic in Vancouver, Canada. She works
with teens on the spectrum. She helps guide them through
the challenges of being a teenager and planning for life
after high school. She started by talking about one of
(02:10):
the most important things teens with autism need to learn.
Claire W. (02:14):
One of the biggest difficulties for clients with high functioning
autism is because of the social communication deficits, learning how
to self- advocate. And a lot of times, we have
these great parents that are able to take care of
their kids and advocate for their kids. But young people,
as they transition into high school and even more importantly
(02:35):
as they transition into university, they need to learn how
to self advocate to be able to recognize their strengths,
and also recognize and ask for assistance when they need it.
Katie Bennison (02:48):
So, the teen years are obviously really rough. They're all
about teenage crushes and body changing and gender questioning and
hormones and so forth. And they're really hard conversations to have
with any teen. Are there any additional challenges faced in
these areas by teens with autism?
Claire W. (03:08):
Well, I think that there's an issue about managing attraction.
Because individuals with high functioning autism can have this sticky
thinking, they could be attracted to an individual and their
intensity is turned up a little too high. So, they
can be too overt, too in your face. So, it's
(03:29):
managing, learning how to manage sexual feelings, learning how to
manage those really difficult attractions, learning how to manage rejection
can be difficult, a little more difficult for a person
with social communication difficulties. Although, I think it's difficult for
(03:49):
all youth. I think for a lot of youth, working
with therapists about sharing common interests, sharing attractions, managing bullying,
managing get togethers is really helpful. I think things like
peers groups where a individual works with a therapist, but
(04:10):
in a co- led group with eight or nine other
kids with high functioning autism is really helpful so that
they're able to practice those skills with support, so that
they're understanding the reciprocity of these things. And also, they
understand the boundaries, because sometimes all of us can become
(04:33):
obsessed. And so, that's sort of, for the child to
understand or the young person to understand the limits often
requires specific concrete therapy that a peers group or working
with a speech language pathologist or working with a psychologist
can be very helpful.
Katie Bennison (04:52):
So, can you give some examples? If you were trying
to teach a teen with ASD how to determine sexual
consent, because it's really hard to read social cues, whether
or not you're on the spectrum.
Claire W. (05:05):
Well, I think that one of the things that's really paramount is
to talk to individuals, whether they're male or female, about
the idea of consent. I think that that is part
of sexual education for all kids. But I think it's
really important, particularly with high functioning girls is that if
you are desperate for connection and you're feeling attracted to
(05:31):
a person, that doesn't necessarily mean that you want to
be sexual. And I think that we have to be
really explicit about things like consent and about the consequences
of not being clear. And so, I think all young
people, but particularly people with high functioning autism, they need
(05:52):
to make a decision in advance whether they are prepared
to be sexual or not, and why they would be
doing that.
Katie Bennison (06:00):
Body language, like if you have a crush on somebody
and you're really interested in them and they're giving you
the brush off. Maybe if you're on the spectrum, you
might not notice that. So, how do you teach to
determine whether sexual consent is there or if someone's interested
in you for friendship or even a relationship?
Claire W. (06:23):
Well, I think part of it is teaching the individual to be very specific.
Those cues are incredibly subtle to see the difference. And
so, part of it is I think we need to
teach them to be explicit, which means for a young
person to actually say ... I'm going to make up a name, "
Nathan, I'm attracted to you. I'm interested in you." To
(06:46):
be that explicit, " Am I reading the signs correctly?" And
if Nathan says, " Look, I think you're fabulous," making up
a name, " Sally. But I'm not interested in you in
that way," then you have to accept that boundary. Do
not think that if you keep sending texts or keep
approaching the person that they're going to change their mind.
(07:09):
So, you have to respect their limit, respect their boundary.
And this is very confusing for all young people. But
if you add the black and white thinking of a
person with high functioning autism, it gets very overwhelming. Then
we have to actually coach our young people about it's
(07:30):
hard when the person says, " I like you, but I'm
not interested in you in that way." But then we
need to say, you have to accept the boundary. No
repeat texting, no hanging around, no sending notes. That ends
up being inappropriate. And that's when a person's at risk
(07:50):
for being bullied. And that impacts their self- esteem.
Katie Bennison (07:54):
And that was my next question, how can parents protect
their kids on the spectrum against cyber bullying, what can
they teach them?
Claire W. (08:03):
It's having the kind of relationship with your person, your
young person, where you talk to them about limiting social
media and recognizing boundaries and limits. And I think that
this is really difficult, that there is some mean- spiritedness
(08:24):
that happens, that there's sometimes naivety. People can think they're
receiving a text from somebody who's a friend who's setting
them up. And os, I think partly it's to have conversations,
but even to have kids involved in peers groups where
they're talking about bullying, they're talking about getting a bad
(08:46):
reputation, they're talking about managing things. But I really feel
like parents can be the coach. But if we're going
to be coaches, we have to be open and accepting.
We have to understand that having high functioning autism's just part
of a person. The person still has lots of interests,
(09:08):
they still have sexual feelings, they're still in many ways
a typical person. So, it's being willing to have those
difficult conversations about wanting to belong, wanting to fit in,
how to manage social media, how to not be a
bully, because it's easy to be a bully or it's
(09:31):
easy for you to be too intense with your texting
as well.
Katie Bennison (09:34):
So, when someone on the spectrum can't regularly read those
cues because it's hard when you're not face to face
with a person and it's just a computer, how do
you teach when that person actually is making fun of you?
Claire W. (09:50):
I think partly it's to look at in concrete specific
ways, this is a text that is a reasonable appropriate
text. Usually a lot of young people can tell the
difference between a reasonable appropriate text that's 100% reasonable and
a text that's 100% not okay. It's the subtleties. So,
(10:12):
again, it's sort of like having the person stop and go, "
Do you think this seems reasonable?" " Well, I'm not sure." "
Okay, so if you think that you're being set up
or if you think that this is somewhat unreasonable, how
should you manage it?" The way to manage it is
to respond back and go, " Are you making fun of
me?" Or, " This feels a bit uncomfortable." Again, I think
(10:36):
this is about the self- advocacy. It's about this ability
to say, " You know, sometimes I don't read cues. Are
you being kind or are you being unkind?"
Katie Bennison (10:46):
So, you might actually do that right in the therapy
session. That's great
Claire W. (10:49):
Right. And also to sort of say to the client, "
You know what? If I'm not here to help you,
who else can help you?" So, maybe they do have
a good friend that can help them, or maybe they
do have a good school teacher or they have a
parent. It's like, let's talk about this, and then let's talk
about how this makes us feel.
Katie Bennison (11:10):
That was Doctor Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist at
the Able Development Clinic in Vancouver, Canada. In a moment,
we'll talk with her again about helping teens get ready
for the next stage of their lives. She's also going
to be sharing her main piece of advice for parents
when it comes to helping their teens on the spectrum.
(11:30):
But first, I want to talk about some common parental
concerns for teens with ASD. Parents worry, it's what we
do, right? And an especially common worry has to do
with how our teens living with autism conduct themselves on
social media. So, I asked our parent round table to
weigh in on this.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
I think it's difficult for neuro- typical 'normal' teenagers to
understand that a lot of that stuff that we're seeing,
for example on Instagram is marketing, or it's, for lack
of a better term, fake, right? So, I think it's
even harder for non- neuro- typical kids on the spectrum
(12:15):
to understand that that stuff is not real.
Speaker 7 (12:17):
He has an Instagram account and he makes some rap songs
and posts them. So, it has some advantages for him.
Like, he finds friends.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
She doesn't have much presence online. She hasn't asked for it.
She hasn't pushed for it. It's not something she's been interested in.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
But we talk about the dangers also a lot, like what
can happen. And one person can tell you that he's
14, but he can be like a 60 year old
person from another part of the world. And it was hard
for him to get it because it was like, " What?
Why?" And then we went through that a lot.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
She just WhatsApps me and her mom and stuff. But she
really doesn't have a lot of friends at the high school. And it's just not a big extended community
of people she's texting or anything.
Speaker 6 (13:02):
I actually have found that there has been some advantages
to it in that he has made connections and friendships
with other kids online. And in some ways, it's kind
of been good for him because when you connect with
someone via text, for example, so if you're texting or emailing
back and forth, you don't have the non- verbal communication
(13:24):
levels for them to interpret, which they have a challenge
interpreting. They have just that one level of communication, which
are the words. And I think that's actually been really
good for him in some way.
Speaker 7 (13:35):
So he's 14, he shows me. He's like, " Look, someone wrote
that. Who's that? Who?" And I can navigate through it
and we can talk about it. But I'm not sure
what happens in like a year or two.
Speaker 9 (13:46):
Quite obsessively or part of his maladaptive behavior as he's
not been doing well a bit in school is he
spends a lot of time in these types of mediums.
He's very bright on finding ways to create accounts or
move through different things. So, I got to this point
of releasing control and taking the bubble wrappers off about
(14:06):
nine months ago, and really just sort of trusting him
to make the right decision and having some of those
conversations with him about, " Dylan, I know and you know
that there's a lot of people out there that do
and say and do different things. And I know sometimes
you're going to make some mistakes and that's okay. But I trust
(14:28):
you to make more of the right decisions. And if you have
a problem, you can come to me."
Katie Bennison (14:32):
Those were some voices from our autism parent round table
talking about the challenges their teens face with social media.
Of course, we all know testing boundaries is part of
teenage life. And sometimes kids experiment with alcohol or drugs,
which an be a huge worry for parents, especially those of
(14:53):
us with kids on the spectrum. We worry that our
kids may not fully understand the pitfalls. Here's Doctor Winston
Jones with her thoughts on this topic.
Claire W. (15:03):
I think that this is part of that sticky thinking
that comes with Autism Spectrum Disorder. So, it's like if
I like it, I like it intensely. Lots of kids
like Minecraft and lots of kids like DC Marvel. And
lots of kids like Fortnite. But if you have high
functioning autism and you like it, you can like it
(15:26):
very intensely, especially if you're feeling like you can't manage
the social world. So, you know, being with your peers
is frightening, so you withdraw. You're alone and you are
on social media intensely, or you're doing something intensely. A
lot of young people with autism don't actually like drugs
(15:47):
and alcohol because they tend to be very rule bound. But
certainly, you can imagine that a young person who's got
social communication difficulties and is anxious in social situations drinks
alcohol, relaxes, that that recognition is more likely to happen
with these sticky, intense, repetitive behaviors. So again, I think these
(16:12):
are things that we have to talk to young people
about. This is part of what a social skills group
does or a peers group is to talk about this
balance. So, to really sort of tell young people about
the need to, yes, enjoy Fortnite, yes, enjoy social media,
(16:33):
to have some social outlets. If you're not into sports,
fair enough. But you have to be doing chess or
you have to be doing dragon boating, so that we
have to make sure that we don't have young people
hidden away in rooms doing Fortnite all night long or
Minecraft or drinking excessively or using drugs excessively. Again, I
(16:57):
don't see that a lot with young people with high
functioning autism because of the rule boundness, but definitely there's a
propensity to do anything too intensely.
Katie Bennison (17:07):
That was Doctor Claire Winston Jones. So, let's go back
to our autism parent round- table for their thoughts about
alcohol, drugs, and their kids.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Does he know what weed smells like? Yes, he does.
But I think one of his superpowers is that he's
actually really kind of happy with himself and who he
is. And he can kind of see these things and go, "
That's dumb."
Speaker 7 (17:39):
He has lots of social cravings. So, he wants to
have friends. But he also has some morals and also
he's afraid of consequences. Like, just even smoking or things,
how it affects your body. And he is like, " I
don't like." He's still in that mode that he's like, "
No, I don't want that to happen to me." So,
(18:01):
that logic behind, " Why should I do that to myself?"
Speaker 9 (18:04):
Dylan is hugely engaged and has a high motivation for
social engagement, which might be a little different than other
kids on the spectrum. And he craves that. So, he
will do things to fit in. But he also has
this governator on him around what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
But still, he's still 14 and he just went to high school. So, I
don't know in a year or two because of fitting
in, he might try it. And I'm afraid of that
because he gets obsessed and stuck on things.
Speaker 9 (18:32):
But there has been some experimentation. There has been some things
with other friends. And I'd rather be part of the
conversation than be that rigid authoritarian father.
Speaker 6 (18:43):
They have this big auditorium. He got there late and
whatever, he wasn't sitting with his friends. And this is
his first year in high school. All of these grade 11s
or 12s or whatever came and sat next to him.
And I was like, " Was that okay?" And he was like, " Yeah, they
offered me their vape." I was like, " Wow, what did you say?" And
he's like, " Well, I told them that it will give
them lung cancer. And I told them all of the bad ..." And I was like, "
(19:04):
Geez, okay."
Speaker 7 (19:07):
That's my son.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
You know? I was like, " I'm glad you didn't do it, but try not
to lecture the ... Like, be cool, man."
Katie Bennison (19:14):
That was our autism parents round table sharing some of
the conversations they've had about teens, vaping, alcohol, and drugs.
Earlier, we heard from Claire Winston Jones, a psychologist who
works with teens on the spectrum. She talked about how
(19:34):
to help teens navigate the tricky social sphere including romantic
relationships. Of course, adolescence is also a time when kids
gain independence and they start preparing for the next stages
of life, whether it's going to university, getting a job,
living on their own for the first time. So, I
asked Doctor Winston Jones about the difficulties teens face as
(19:58):
they make that transition from high school to university.
Claire W. (20:02):
Okay, so what my experience is, is that a lot of
the clients I work with, academically, they're really bright and
very capable. And what's happened is they've gone to high
school and they are identified as having high functioning Autism
Spectrum Disorder. So, they may have LEC supports or they
may be in specialized programs, like a grad quest program.
(20:24):
And a lot of times, what happens is they've got
a peer group, they're doing really well academically. And a
lot of parents will actually reduce the amount of therapy
supports that they're giving this young person because they're doing
so well. The problem is that in that environment, it's
somewhat sheltered. And so, I will meet parents where they'll
(20:46):
say their kid's brilliant and their kid's getting A pluses,
which is fantastic. But then I find out from the parents, "
But they're not getting themselves up in the morning." Mom
and dad are scheduling them. Mom and dad are setting
the alarm. And then these kids apply to university and
they might go to UVIC, they might go to residence.
And they get totally overwhelmed because they haven't actually been
(21:10):
doing their own laundry, making their own meals. They haven't
actually even been getting themselves up. And most importantly, they
haven't been doing self- advocacy.
Katie Bennison (21:19):
So, teach those life skills when they are teenagers and
they're still in the house as like a practice run
for university?
Claire W. (21:27):
Absolutely. Absolutely has to be the case. So, we can
say because they're academically bright that they can be successful at
university. They have every ability to be successful at university.
But the parents who might have been advocating for their
children in high school, the university's not going to tolerate
it. Even if your child's 17 or 18 and legally
(21:50):
is not an adult, the university is not going to
have the parents be the advocate. So, if your child
is not identified as a student with disabilities at the
disability center, that's a problem. So, I absolutely suggest to
parents that they be identified as a student with a
disability at the university. They may never need any accommodation.
(22:13):
But if they're not identified and they have a difficulty
with a prof, or they have a difficulty with a
schedule issue, they slept in, if your child has been
given private place and space for exams, if your child
has been given more time for exams, the university is
not going to give your child that if they're not identified.
Katie Bennison (22:36):
Yeah, so the things ... In order to make sure that
your teen is set up for success in university, what
do they need to have?
Claire W. (22:47):
So, my suggest would be that you make sure you have
a psych ed assessment done within the last five years.
And that the accommodations that are on the educational assessment,
they are able to receive them at the university setting.
But you have to take that psychoeducational report and go
(23:08):
to the students with disabilities office. Universities have different names
for them. And make it known to the university that
your child requires accommodation. So, typical accommodations that the university
will do, depending on the situation, is they may give
your child 1. 5 times for an exam. So, a
(23:30):
two hour exam for example, they would get three hours.
If your child has difficulty taking in information and writing
notes, they may give you class notes in advance. They
may give you a scribe. Most of the universities, all
students in their first year are guaranteed residence. But in
(23:50):
their second year, they're not guaranteed residence. But for a
lot of individuals with high functioning autism, the support of
the student residential services are required maybe for first year,
for sure. Second year, maybe for the whole undergraduate degree.
Katie Bennison (24:08):
So, they'll get accommodation for their entire Bachelor of Arts
or whatever they happen to be taking?
Claire W. (24:14):
If that's what the suggestion is on the psychoeducational assessment.
That's definitely one of the things that I really recommend.
The other thing that I do for a lot of
young people is they don't expect that there's going to
be a great difficulty for them transitioning to university. If
they've been receiving A pluses, they think they're going to
just do fantastic. So, the other thing that I highly
(24:37):
recommend and I put in my reports is that the
individual receive a peer support person. So, another student, this
student might also have high functioning autism. And they might
be in their second or third or fourth year. And
they help that person transition successfully into the university environment.
(24:59):
They might be dragging them to chess club or one
of the clubs so that we don't have a young
person show up for their classes and do really well,
but they go back to student residences and hide. So,
what I say to parents is it's kind of like, "
You know how you've been gate keeping and supporting your
family member? Now we're going to ask for a disability counselor
(25:19):
to do that." So, that person's going to negotiate difficulties
with instructors.
Katie Bennison (25:24):
So, if you had one piece of advice for parents
to help teens with autism succeed and survive adolescence, what
would it be?
Claire W. (25:35):
Okay, so my suggestion is forego one on one therapy
for social skills groups that for a lot of teens,
they're going to learn from their peers. They don't want
to hear from a therapist. They don't want to hear
from their parents, " Don't do this. You should do this."
They're just in many ways like other typical teens. So,
(25:56):
my suggestion would be to do a social skills group,
a group of 8- 10 peers, other peers with high
functioning autism. And learn things that are so important about
how to manage bullying, how to manage attraction, how to
(26:21):
initiate conversations. But you want them to learn it in
a social skills group because then they can practice with
their peers. When it's a young person telling another young
person, they pay attention. When I say it, when you
say it, not so much. But a lot of times,
it's about being involved in the community, being involved with
(26:41):
your peers, learning to self- advocate and being proud to
understand that high functioning autism is just a different way
of thinking. We label it, so it feels like pathology.
But I think it's diversity. I think that if young
people can understand that their atypical way of thinking about
things is actually really valuable, that when you can think
(27:04):
outside of the box, you can actually figure out some
of the things that typical people aren't getting right. Like,
how are we going to save the world? And how
are we going to manage climate change? I think it's
going to be these people with the atypical ways of
thinking that are going to find these really important answers.
Katie Bennison (27:27):
That was Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist at the
Able Development Clinic in Vancouver. You're listening to Life On
The Spectrum. I am your host, Katie Bennison. I'm also
the mom of a teenage daughter with autism. I hope
you're enjoying our podcast. Please subscribe wherever you get your
podcasts, and give us a review. It will really help
(27:49):
us reach more people. And let your friends know about
it as well. Our website is lifeonthespectrumpodcast. com, where you'll find
more content and other episodes. You can also find us
on Facebook. We've covered a lot of ground today and
learned a lot about navigating the teen years on the
spectrum. And for the last word on the subject, we
(28:12):
thought, let's listen to what the young people from our
autism teen round table have to say. What are some
of their tips for getting through adolescence in one piece?
What are they looking forward to when it comes to
getting older and gaining more independence?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yes, I want to get a license one day, and I want
to be able to drive on my own.
Katie Bennison (28:36):
Where would you go?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I would drive to Tim Horton's.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I also am not good at picking up social cues,
so I'm probably going to win the most socially awkward
award in my entire school.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I don't want to believe that my powers, some of
my powers only belong to me. I want to believe
that my children will have them.
Katie Bennison (28:58):
Your children will have autism, you mean?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Their brain will work kind of like mine.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Maybe the most autistic thing that I think about me
is I'm very shy to just go up and talk
to a person. Like, mostly I think it's because I
don't know what to say to them most of the
time. But at the same time, I want to, you know? I want
to make more friends.
Speaker 10 (29:18):
I get distracted really easily. The only reason I ever
get in trouble with my teachers is because I'm caught on
my computer doing things that I really shouldn't be doing.
Katie Bennison (29:26):
Like?
Speaker 10 (29:27):
Such as just watching videos on YouTube. One time I
accidentally broadcast The Simpsons to the entire class.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
What?
Katie Bennison (29:35):
You're my kind of guy.
Speaker 10 (29:36):
I was using Bluetooth headphones, but somehow they disconnected.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Be yourself. That's one thing I've learned after all these
years. And if you're a child with autism like me
listening out there, then don't let labels ruin your life
or anything like that. Labels don't matter, they're just a
label. You can live through hard things.
Katie Bennison (29:56):
Well, there you have it. Great insight from the real
experts, teenagers from our autism round table. I hope you've
found this episode useful when it comes to getting through
the teenage years. I've certainly learned a thing or two.
I have to stop making my daughter's lunch all the
time. In our next episode, we have a very special
(30:16):
guest, autism trailblazer, Temple Grandin. I can't wait to share
that conversation with you. So, make sure to subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts, and help us spread the word
by giving us a review. That would be certainly appreciated.
Until next time, I'm Katie Bennison. This is Life On
The Spectrum, the autism family podcast. Thanks for listening.
This is a subject that I tend not to talk
about and am kind of happy not to talk about.
But I also kind of would be happy to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I've never actually had someone what to go out with
me before. In grade four, there was a rumor around that
this guy had a crush on me. But I think
he just wanted to be friends, personally.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
What I can understand is that someone liking you and
going out with you means that they see a special
side of you that no one else knows about.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No boy has ever asked me out and I have
never really asked any of the boys out in my school because, to
be honest, all the boys that I've come into contact
with, like in class and whatnot, they are annoying. My
mom keeps saying, " You're too young to be in a
relationship." But I personally get crushes on people every now and then.
Katie Bennison (00:49):
But would it matter if they have autism or not?
Would you prefer if it's someone that also has autism?
Or it doesn't matter?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I don't care, as long as they're cute, their nice,
and they're a feminist.
Katie Bennison (01:02):
Those are some teens from our autism round table talking
about dating. Hi, I'm Katie Bennison your host. And I'm
also the mom of a teenage daughter with autism. Welcome
to Life On The Spectrum
today, we're talking about the teenage years. And they can
be rough for anybody. Suddenly there's dating, texting, driving, social
(01:26):
media. Sometimes there's alcohol, drugs, or vaping. The academic demands
are different too. And kids start planning for their futures.
But what happens when you throw autism into the mix?
Well, as you heard from our teens, it can be
confusing. So, today we're talking about surviving adolescence and how
to best prepare young people with autism for the future.
(01:49):
A little later, we'll hear from some parents. But first,
I sat down with Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist
at the Able Development Clinic in Vancouver, Canada. She works
with teens on the spectrum. She helps guide them through
the challenges of being a teenager and planning for life
after high school. She started by talking about one of
(02:10):
the most important things teens with autism need to learn.
Claire W. (02:14):
One of the biggest difficulties for clients with high functioning
autism is because of the social communication deficits, learning how
to self- advocate. And a lot of times, we have
these great parents that are able to take care of
their kids and advocate for their kids. But young people,
as they transition into high school and even more importantly
(02:35):
as they transition into university, they need to learn how
to self advocate to be able to recognize their strengths,
and also recognize and ask for assistance when they need it.
Katie Bennison (02:48):
So, the teen years are obviously really rough. They're all
about teenage crushes and body changing and gender questioning and
hormones and so forth. And they're really hard conversations to have
with any teen. Are there any additional challenges faced in
these areas by teens with autism?
Claire W. (03:08):
Well, I think that there's an issue about managing attraction.
Because individuals with high functioning autism can have this sticky
thinking, they could be attracted to an individual and their
intensity is turned up a little too high. So, they
can be too overt, too in your face. So, it's
(03:29):
managing, learning how to manage sexual feelings, learning how to
manage those really difficult attractions, learning how to manage rejection
can be difficult, a little more difficult for a person
with social communication difficulties. Although, I think it's difficult for
(03:49):
all youth. I think for a lot of youth, working
with therapists about sharing common interests, sharing attractions, managing bullying,
managing get togethers is really helpful. I think things like
peers groups where a individual works with a therapist, but
(04:10):
in a co- led group with eight or nine other
kids with high functioning autism is really helpful so that
they're able to practice those skills with support, so that
they're understanding the reciprocity of these things. And also, they
understand the boundaries, because sometimes all of us can become
(04:33):
obsessed. And so, that's sort of, for the child to
understand or the young person to understand the limits often
requires specific concrete therapy that a peers group or working
with a speech language pathologist or working with a psychologist
can be very helpful.
Katie Bennison (04:52):
So, can you give some examples? If you were trying
to teach a teen with ASD how to determine sexual
consent, because it's really hard to read social cues, whether
or not you're on the spectrum.
Claire W. (05:05):
Well, I think that one of the things that's really paramount is
to talk to individuals, whether they're male or female, about
the idea of consent. I think that that is part
of sexual education for all kids. But I think it's
really important, particularly with high functioning girls is that if
you are desperate for connection and you're feeling attracted to
(05:31):
a person, that doesn't necessarily mean that you want to
be sexual. And I think that we have to be
really explicit about things like consent and about the consequences
of not being clear. And so, I think all young
people, but particularly people with high functioning autism, they need
(05:52):
to make a decision in advance whether they are prepared
to be sexual or not, and why they would be
doing that.
Katie Bennison (06:00):
Body language, like if you have a crush on somebody
and you're really interested in them and they're giving you
the brush off. Maybe if you're on the spectrum, you
might not notice that. So, how do you teach to
determine whether sexual consent is there or if someone's interested
in you for friendship or even a relationship?
Claire W. (06:23):
Well, I think part of it is teaching the individual to be very specific.
Those cues are incredibly subtle to see the difference. And
so, part of it is I think we need to
teach them to be explicit, which means for a young
person to actually say ... I'm going to make up a name, "
Nathan, I'm attracted to you. I'm interested in you." To
(06:46):
be that explicit, " Am I reading the signs correctly?" And
if Nathan says, " Look, I think you're fabulous," making up
a name, " Sally. But I'm not interested in you in
that way," then you have to accept that boundary. Do
not think that if you keep sending texts or keep
approaching the person that they're going to change their mind.
(07:09):
So, you have to respect their limit, respect their boundary.
And this is very confusing for all young people. But
if you add the black and white thinking of a
person with high functioning autism, it gets very overwhelming. Then
we have to actually coach our young people about it's
(07:30):
hard when the person says, " I like you, but I'm
not interested in you in that way." But then we
need to say, you have to accept the boundary. No
repeat texting, no hanging around, no sending notes. That ends
up being inappropriate. And that's when a person's at risk
(07:50):
for being bullied. And that impacts their self- esteem.
Katie Bennison (07:54):
And that was my next question, how can parents protect
their kids on the spectrum against cyber bullying, what can
they teach them?
Claire W. (08:03):
It's having the kind of relationship with your person, your
young person, where you talk to them about limiting social
media and recognizing boundaries and limits. And I think that
this is really difficult, that there is some mean- spiritedness
(08:24):
that happens, that there's sometimes naivety. People can think they're
receiving a text from somebody who's a friend who's setting
them up. And os, I think partly it's to have conversations,
but even to have kids involved in peers groups where
they're talking about bullying, they're talking about getting a bad
(08:46):
reputation, they're talking about managing things. But I really feel
like parents can be the coach. But if we're going
to be coaches, we have to be open and accepting.
We have to understand that having high functioning autism's just part
of a person. The person still has lots of interests,
(09:08):
they still have sexual feelings, they're still in many ways
a typical person. So, it's being willing to have those
difficult conversations about wanting to belong, wanting to fit in,
how to manage social media, how to not be a
bully, because it's easy to be a bully or it's
(09:31):
easy for you to be too intense with your texting
as well.
Katie Bennison (09:34):
So, when someone on the spectrum can't regularly read those
cues because it's hard when you're not face to face
with a person and it's just a computer, how do
you teach when that person actually is making fun of you?
Claire W. (09:50):
I think partly it's to look at in concrete specific
ways, this is a text that is a reasonable appropriate
text. Usually a lot of young people can tell the
difference between a reasonable appropriate text that's 100% reasonable and
a text that's 100% not okay. It's the subtleties. So,
(10:12):
again, it's sort of like having the person stop and go, "
Do you think this seems reasonable?" " Well, I'm not sure." "
Okay, so if you think that you're being set up
or if you think that this is somewhat unreasonable, how
should you manage it?" The way to manage it is
to respond back and go, " Are you making fun of
me?" Or, " This feels a bit uncomfortable." Again, I think
(10:36):
this is about the self- advocacy. It's about this ability
to say, " You know, sometimes I don't read cues. Are
you being kind or are you being unkind?"
Katie Bennison (10:46):
So, you might actually do that right in the therapy
session. That's great
Claire W. (10:49):
Right. And also to sort of say to the client, "
You know what? If I'm not here to help you,
who else can help you?" So, maybe they do have
a good friend that can help them, or maybe they
do have a good school teacher or they have a
parent. It's like, let's talk about this, and then let's talk
about how this makes us feel.
Katie Bennison (11:10):
That was Doctor Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist at
the Able Development Clinic in Vancouver, Canada. In a moment,
we'll talk with her again about helping teens get ready
for the next stage of their lives. She's also going
to be sharing her main piece of advice for parents
when it comes to helping their teens on the spectrum.
(11:30):
But first, I want to talk about some common parental
concerns for teens with ASD. Parents worry, it's what we
do, right? And an especially common worry has to do
with how our teens living with autism conduct themselves on
social media. So, I asked our parent round table to
weigh in on this.
Speaker 6 (11:55):
I think it's difficult for neuro- typical 'normal' teenagers to
understand that a lot of that stuff that we're seeing,
for example on Instagram is marketing, or it's, for lack
of a better term, fake, right? So, I think it's
even harder for non- neuro- typical kids on the spectrum
(12:15):
to understand that that stuff is not real.
Speaker 7 (12:17):
He has an Instagram account and he makes some rap songs
and posts them. So, it has some advantages for him.
Like, he finds friends.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
She doesn't have much presence online. She hasn't asked for it.
She hasn't pushed for it. It's not something she's been interested in.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
But we talk about the dangers also a lot, like what
can happen. And one person can tell you that he's
14, but he can be like a 60 year old
person from another part of the world. And it was hard
for him to get it because it was like, " What?
Why?" And then we went through that a lot.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
She just WhatsApps me and her mom and stuff. But she
really doesn't have a lot of friends at the high school. And it's just not a big extended community
of people she's texting or anything.
Speaker 6 (13:02):
I actually have found that there has been some advantages
to it in that he has made connections and friendships
with other kids online. And in some ways, it's kind
of been good for him because when you connect with
someone via text, for example, so if you're texting or emailing
back and forth, you don't have the non- verbal communication
(13:24):
levels for them to interpret, which they have a challenge
interpreting. They have just that one level of communication, which
are the words. And I think that's actually been really
good for him in some way.
Speaker 7 (13:35):
So he's 14, he shows me. He's like, " Look, someone wrote
that. Who's that? Who?" And I can navigate through it
and we can talk about it. But I'm not sure
what happens in like a year or two.
Speaker 9 (13:46):
Quite obsessively or part of his maladaptive behavior as he's
not been doing well a bit in school is he
spends a lot of time in these types of mediums.
He's very bright on finding ways to create accounts or
move through different things. So, I got to this point
of releasing control and taking the bubble wrappers off about
(14:06):
nine months ago, and really just sort of trusting him
to make the right decision and having some of those
conversations with him about, " Dylan, I know and you know
that there's a lot of people out there that do
and say and do different things. And I know sometimes
you're going to make some mistakes and that's okay. But I trust
(14:28):
you to make more of the right decisions. And if you have
a problem, you can come to me."
Katie Bennison (14:32):
Those were some voices from our autism parent round table
talking about the challenges their teens face with social media.
Of course, we all know testing boundaries is part of
teenage life. And sometimes kids experiment with alcohol or drugs,
which an be a huge worry for parents, especially those of
(14:53):
us with kids on the spectrum. We worry that our
kids may not fully understand the pitfalls. Here's Doctor Winston
Jones with her thoughts on this topic.
Claire W. (15:03):
I think that this is part of that sticky thinking
that comes with Autism Spectrum Disorder. So, it's like if
I like it, I like it intensely. Lots of kids
like Minecraft and lots of kids like DC Marvel. And
lots of kids like Fortnite. But if you have high
functioning autism and you like it, you can like it
(15:26):
very intensely, especially if you're feeling like you can't manage
the social world. So, you know, being with your peers
is frightening, so you withdraw. You're alone and you are
on social media intensely, or you're doing something intensely. A
lot of young people with autism don't actually like drugs
(15:47):
and alcohol because they tend to be very rule bound. But
certainly, you can imagine that a young person who's got
social communication difficulties and is anxious in social situations drinks
alcohol, relaxes, that that recognition is more likely to happen
with these sticky, intense, repetitive behaviors. So again, I think these
(16:12):
are things that we have to talk to young people
about. This is part of what a social skills group
does or a peers group is to talk about this
balance. So, to really sort of tell young people about
the need to, yes, enjoy Fortnite, yes, enjoy social media,
(16:33):
to have some social outlets. If you're not into sports,
fair enough. But you have to be doing chess or
you have to be doing dragon boating, so that we
have to make sure that we don't have young people
hidden away in rooms doing Fortnite all night long or
Minecraft or drinking excessively or using drugs excessively. Again, I
(16:57):
don't see that a lot with young people with high
functioning autism because of the rule boundness, but definitely there's a
propensity to do anything too intensely.
Katie Bennison (17:07):
That was Doctor Claire Winston Jones. So, let's go back
to our autism parent round- table for their thoughts about
alcohol, drugs, and their kids.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Does he know what weed smells like? Yes, he does.
But I think one of his superpowers is that he's
actually really kind of happy with himself and who he
is. And he can kind of see these things and go, "
That's dumb."
Speaker 7 (17:39):
He has lots of social cravings. So, he wants to
have friends. But he also has some morals and also
he's afraid of consequences. Like, just even smoking or things,
how it affects your body. And he is like, " I
don't like." He's still in that mode that he's like, "
No, I don't want that to happen to me." So,
(18:01):
that logic behind, " Why should I do that to myself?"
Speaker 9 (18:04):
Dylan is hugely engaged and has a high motivation for
social engagement, which might be a little different than other
kids on the spectrum. And he craves that. So, he
will do things to fit in. But he also has
this governator on him around what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
But still, he's still 14 and he just went to high school. So, I
don't know in a year or two because of fitting
in, he might try it. And I'm afraid of that
because he gets obsessed and stuck on things.
Speaker 9 (18:32):
But there has been some experimentation. There has been some things
with other friends. And I'd rather be part of the
conversation than be that rigid authoritarian father.
Speaker 6 (18:43):
They have this big auditorium. He got there late and
whatever, he wasn't sitting with his friends. And this is
his first year in high school. All of these grade 11s
or 12s or whatever came and sat next to him.
And I was like, " Was that okay?" And he was like, " Yeah, they
offered me their vape." I was like, " Wow, what did you say?" And
he's like, " Well, I told them that it will give
them lung cancer. And I told them all of the bad ..." And I was like, "
(19:04):
Geez, okay."
Speaker 7 (19:07):
That's my son.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
You know? I was like, " I'm glad you didn't do it, but try not
to lecture the ... Like, be cool, man."
Katie Bennison (19:14):
That was our autism parents round table sharing some of
the conversations they've had about teens, vaping, alcohol, and drugs.
Earlier, we heard from Claire Winston Jones, a psychologist who
works with teens on the spectrum. She talked about how
(19:34):
to help teens navigate the tricky social sphere including romantic
relationships. Of course, adolescence is also a time when kids
gain independence and they start preparing for the next stages
of life, whether it's going to university, getting a job,
living on their own for the first time. So, I
asked Doctor Winston Jones about the difficulties teens face as
(19:58):
they make that transition from high school to university.
Claire W. (20:02):
Okay, so what my experience is, is that a lot of
the clients I work with, academically, they're really bright and
very capable. And what's happened is they've gone to high
school and they are identified as having high functioning Autism
Spectrum Disorder. So, they may have LEC supports or they
may be in specialized programs, like a grad quest program.
(20:24):
And a lot of times, what happens is they've got
a peer group, they're doing really well academically. And a
lot of parents will actually reduce the amount of therapy
supports that they're giving this young person because they're doing
so well. The problem is that in that environment, it's
somewhat sheltered. And so, I will meet parents where they'll
(20:46):
say their kid's brilliant and their kid's getting A pluses,
which is fantastic. But then I find out from the parents, "
But they're not getting themselves up in the morning." Mom
and dad are scheduling them. Mom and dad are setting
the alarm. And then these kids apply to university and
they might go to UVIC, they might go to residence.
And they get totally overwhelmed because they haven't actually been
(21:10):
doing their own laundry, making their own meals. They haven't
actually even been getting themselves up. And most importantly, they
haven't been doing self- advocacy.
Katie Bennison (21:19):
So, teach those life skills when they are teenagers and
they're still in the house as like a practice run
for university?
Claire W. (21:27):
Absolutely. Absolutely has to be the case. So, we can
say because they're academically bright that they can be successful at
university. They have every ability to be successful at university.
But the parents who might have been advocating for their
children in high school, the university's not going to tolerate
it. Even if your child's 17 or 18 and legally
(21:50):
is not an adult, the university is not going to
have the parents be the advocate. So, if your child
is not identified as a student with disabilities at the
disability center, that's a problem. So, I absolutely suggest to
parents that they be identified as a student with a
disability at the university. They may never need any accommodation.
(22:13):
But if they're not identified and they have a difficulty
with a prof, or they have a difficulty with a
schedule issue, they slept in, if your child has been
given private place and space for exams, if your child
has been given more time for exams, the university is
not going to give your child that if they're not identified.
Katie Bennison (22:36):
Yeah, so the things ... In order to make sure that
your teen is set up for success in university, what
do they need to have?
Claire W. (22:47):
So, my suggest would be that you make sure you have
a psych ed assessment done within the last five years.
And that the accommodations that are on the educational assessment,
they are able to receive them at the university setting.
But you have to take that psychoeducational report and go
(23:08):
to the students with disabilities office. Universities have different names
for them. And make it known to the university that
your child requires accommodation. So, typical accommodations that the university
will do, depending on the situation, is they may give
your child 1. 5 times for an exam. So, a
(23:30):
two hour exam for example, they would get three hours.
If your child has difficulty taking in information and writing
notes, they may give you class notes in advance. They
may give you a scribe. Most of the universities, all
students in their first year are guaranteed residence. But in
(23:50):
their second year, they're not guaranteed residence. But for a
lot of individuals with high functioning autism, the support of
the student residential services are required maybe for first year,
for sure. Second year, maybe for the whole undergraduate degree.
Katie Bennison (24:08):
So, they'll get accommodation for their entire Bachelor of Arts
or whatever they happen to be taking?
Claire W. (24:14):
If that's what the suggestion is on the psychoeducational assessment.
That's definitely one of the things that I really recommend.
The other thing that I do for a lot of
young people is they don't expect that there's going to
be a great difficulty for them transitioning to university. If
they've been receiving A pluses, they think they're going to
just do fantastic. So, the other thing that I highly
(24:37):
recommend and I put in my reports is that the
individual receive a peer support person. So, another student, this
student might also have high functioning autism. And they might
be in their second or third or fourth year. And
they help that person transition successfully into the university environment.
(24:59):
They might be dragging them to chess club or one
of the clubs so that we don't have a young
person show up for their classes and do really well,
but they go back to student residences and hide. So,
what I say to parents is it's kind of like, "
You know how you've been gate keeping and supporting your
family member? Now we're going to ask for a disability counselor
(25:19):
to do that." So, that person's going to negotiate difficulties
with instructors.
Katie Bennison (25:24):
So, if you had one piece of advice for parents
to help teens with autism succeed and survive adolescence, what
would it be?
Claire W. (25:35):
Okay, so my suggestion is forego one on one therapy
for social skills groups that for a lot of teens,
they're going to learn from their peers. They don't want
to hear from a therapist. They don't want to hear
from their parents, " Don't do this. You should do this."
They're just in many ways like other typical teens. So,
(25:56):
my suggestion would be to do a social skills group,
a group of 8- 10 peers, other peers with high
functioning autism. And learn things that are so important about
how to manage bullying, how to manage attraction, how to
(26:21):
initiate conversations. But you want them to learn it in
a social skills group because then they can practice with
their peers. When it's a young person telling another young
person, they pay attention. When I say it, when you
say it, not so much. But a lot of times,
it's about being involved in the community, being involved with
(26:41):
your peers, learning to self- advocate and being proud to
understand that high functioning autism is just a different way
of thinking. We label it, so it feels like pathology.
But I think it's diversity. I think that if young
people can understand that their atypical way of thinking about
things is actually really valuable, that when you can think
(27:04):
outside of the box, you can actually figure out some
of the things that typical people aren't getting right. Like,
how are we going to save the world? And how
are we going to manage climate change? I think it's
going to be these people with the atypical ways of
thinking that are going to find these really important answers.
Katie Bennison (27:27):
That was Claire Winston Jones. She's a psychologist at the
Able Development Clinic in Vancouver. You're listening to Life On
The Spectrum. I am your host, Katie Bennison. I'm also
the mom of a teenage daughter with autism. I hope
you're enjoying our podcast. Please subscribe wherever you get your
podcasts, and give us a review. It will really help
(27:49):
us reach more people. And let your friends know about
it as well. Our website is lifeonthespectrumpodcast. com, where you'll find
more content and other episodes. You can also find us
on Facebook. We've covered a lot of ground today and
learned a lot about navigating the teen years on the
spectrum. And for the last word on the subject, we
(28:12):
thought, let's listen to what the young people from our
autism teen round table have to say. What are some
of their tips for getting through adolescence in one piece?
What are they looking forward to when it comes to
getting older and gaining more independence?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Yes, I want to get a license one day, and I want
to be able to drive on my own.
Katie Bennison (28:36):
Where would you go?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I would drive to Tim Horton's.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I also am not good at picking up social cues,
so I'm probably going to win the most socially awkward
award in my entire school.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
I don't want to believe that my powers, some of
my powers only belong to me. I want to believe
that my children will have them.
Katie Bennison (28:58):
Your children will have autism, you mean?
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Their brain will work kind of like mine.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Maybe the most autistic thing that I think about me
is I'm very shy to just go up and talk
to a person. Like, mostly I think it's because I
don't know what to say to them most of the
time. But at the same time, I want to, you know? I want
to make more friends.
Speaker 10 (29:18):
I get distracted really easily. The only reason I ever
get in trouble with my teachers is because I'm caught on
my computer doing things that I really shouldn't be doing.
Katie Bennison (29:26):
Like?
Speaker 10 (29:27):
Such as just watching videos on YouTube. One time I
accidentally broadcast The Simpsons to the entire class.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
What?
Katie Bennison (29:35):
You're my kind of guy.
Speaker 10 (29:36):
I was using Bluetooth headphones, but somehow they disconnected.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Be yourself. That's one thing I've learned after all these
years. And if you're a child with autism like me
listening out there, then don't let labels ruin your life
or anything like that. Labels don't matter, they're just a
label. You can live through hard things.
Katie Bennison (29:56):
Well, there you have it. Great insight from the real
experts, teenagers from our autism round table. I hope you've
found this episode useful when it comes to getting through
the teenage years. I've certainly learned a thing or two.
I have to stop making my daughter's lunch all the
time. In our next episode, we have a very special
(30:16):
guest, autism trailblazer, Temple Grandin. I can't wait to share
that conversation with you. So, make sure to subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts, and help us spread the word
by giving us a review. That would be certainly appreciated.
Until next time, I'm Katie Bennison. This is Life On
The Spectrum, the autism family podcast. Thanks for listening.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.