January 11, 2024 • 39 mins
“Let Pinhead Sing” & “The Last Heartbreak” make for some satisfying overthinking. Tracie and Emily delve deep into literal and figurative mirroring in the show, the sociological and evolutionary benefit of Tom Ellis’s devastated face, and the need for another character to alert the audience to the so-called romantic chemistry between Pierce (Tom Welling) and Chloe (Lauren German).
We question the likelihood of a thousands-of-years-old man lugging a rock collection around the world, and acknowledge the fact that if the showrunners were more historically accurate with language usage, it wouldn’t be a particularly enjoyable show.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Here's a fun fact Emily's office is adjacent to
her kitchen.
In today's episode you can hearthe distinct sounds of a
dishwasher being unloaded in thebackground.
But stick with us, it's worthit.
Hi there, I am here with mysister, tracy Guy Decker, and
she does use a hyphen, and I amhere with my sister, emily Guy
Birkin, does not use a hyphen.
(00:41):
I do not Together.
We are Lightbringers where weinvestigate, no, we illuminate.
Yeah, we illuminate.
It's a thing that we did.
It's a thing that we do becausewe're Lightbringers, we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
, where if you're crime-solving,you're investigating.
(01:02):
Hence my confusion and need formore coffee.
And yes, we're overthinking itif you could tell, always
overthinking it, alwaysoverthinking it.
And so today we're going to beoverthinking episodes 3, 17 and
3, 18.
Let Pinhead Sing and the LastHeartbreak.
(01:26):
That's correct, the LastHeartbreak.
Yes, so these are interestingepisodes.
It's funny.
My spouse came in while I waswatching Let Pinhead Sing and
like in the middle I was like,wow, lucifer is kind of a jerk
in this one.
And I was like, yeah, luciferis kind of a jerk, I actually.
So I had a similar thing wheremy spouse happened to come in
(01:48):
during the duet.
I will survive.
I will survive duet betweenAzara and Lucifer and he's not a
fan of this show, but he's justlike that's well done, like I
love the, like where's it?
Well, don't go.
Like he's like you're in dangerand like singing until he gets
into it.
And I was just like I know,yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
The show was really well done.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The showrunners really lucked out with their
casting.
That Ellis is also a vocaltalent.
Oh my goodness, he'sphenomenally talented.
He's so great, he's so great,yeah, so let's talk about Let
Pinhead Sing.
There's when I am overthinkingit, which is what we do.
So the sort of surface level ofwhat's happening is that
(02:34):
Lucifer has realized that he maybe putting Chloe in danger by
loving her, basically because ifdad is angry like dad, the God
might take Chloe away by killingher in some way, like the bomb
in the infernal guinea pigepisode, and so Lucifer is
trying to divert his attentionso that he can trick God into
(03:00):
thinking that he doesn't careabout Chloe, which just even on
the surface level doesn't reallywork.
Yeah, that does not.
It just doesn't.
It doesn't make sense, itdoesn't make sense.
Even within the universe ofLucifer we have seen that the
Celestials know that they can,like reach one another by
(03:24):
praying.
I mean maybe that that needs tobe intentional before the other
Celestial can read their mind.
But still, like God's differentfrom the angels, like there's
the whole omniscience thing andLucifer has said repeatedly you
know all powerful, like yeah,yeah, it just doesn't like.
(03:45):
The whole premise of whyLucifer is behaving that way
Just doesn't make sense.
Though Azaria says Azara,excuse me.
Azara says to Lucifer why areyou trying to convince yourself
you don't like her?
And Lucifer says I'm not tryingto convince myself, but
actually maybe that is a morebelievable premise that he
(04:10):
thought maybe he could actuallymake himself stop liking her or
stop loving her so that itwouldn't be just trying to trick
God but actually be true.
But either way, it was kind ofa weak premise for the way that
he behaved.
Yeah, I thought so.
Anyway, that was, that was mymain kind of storytelling
(04:31):
critique of that pinhead sayingIn some ways it felt like there
was a bit of a they're forcingthe parallels because with the
case of the week it's Cici, theassistant is trying to keep
Azara safe by turning thespotlight elsewhere, sort of by
(04:53):
scaring her out of the spotlight.
Scaring her out of thespotlight, yeah, so that like
there's that clear parallel,like you know, like that's even
what Linda says is like you'rein the spotlight and he's like I
can't get out of the spotlightbut I can get her out of the
spotlight.
Right, and even the compassionthat when catching the killer,
when Lucifer tackles Cici andCici says I was just trying to
(05:15):
protect her, lucifer has a lotof compassion and says I know,
you know, so you're right.
I mean there always is, therealways is a parallel with the
case of the week.
I think what you're saying isthat they were pushing harder on
it and it kind of made it thatyou didn't have the structural
integrity necessary to push sohard.
Yeah, yeah, Based on theuniverse that they had created
(05:36):
of how God works.
Yeah, Although there issomething to be said, and some
of this I am, I think, forgivingof things that Lucifer
character because of how wellTom Ellis plays him.
But there is something toLucifer being sort of person
(05:57):
creature who sticks his fingersin his ears and goes la la, la,
la, la, la, la la la la la la,la, la, la, la la.
For sure that's in character,yes, and so that is a little bit
of what's going on.
I can almost see him being likehe's lit on this and he also is
like kind of shiny new toy whenit comes to ideas and things
like that.
And he's lit on this like, oh,this will work.
(06:21):
So he definitely has like likewith the high school poppycock.
He like needed that bookchapter to figure out his
problem.
So he definitely does kind offixate on a specific idea.
So yeah, I mean that is that isan in keeping with the
character development that we'veseen of Lucifer.
So, I do want to say him like,trying to show his affection for
(06:45):
other people to varying degreesis actually really like it's it
touches.
Like.
So with Ella, he finds theperfect shirt for her.
She's wearing it later in theshow.
She like, yeah, she loves it.
Well, I mean style, like, evenlike, yeah, the like what is it
(07:07):
called?
The baseball with the blueslaves?
Yeah, yeah, so like he got itin one.
Then Bob, the security guard,whose name you can't remember,
but when he says like he's mynew favorite person, and Bob is
like oh, yeah, and even laterwhen they, when they come to the
penthouse and as far as and Bobjust looks at him and now it's
(07:32):
really cute.
And again, some of that is likethe actor playing Bob Didn't I
show he did, he did Like causesome of what was so endearing
about him going like oh wasbecause he was so like immovable
, he was in, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
That's for Robert, no , so, so, yeah, I really do Like
there's something to that too,in that Lucifer has such charm
that he is able to kind of likehave people feel convinced, like
oh, I am special to him eventhough I just met him.
(08:09):
Yeah, two more things that Iwant to share.
And then I want you hadsomething about mirroring that
I'd like to make sure we get forthe episode.
So one is like the when they'rein the penthouse and Azara says
is this thing a prop or is itreally working?
He says Mozart, liberace, elton, I taught them all and I was
(08:36):
like, huh, that okay, because wealso I mean, we also have seen
him we in the very beginninglike there are no pianos in hell
, right?
So he's like delighted.
No, it's not the very beginning, sorry, it's the, the, the the
(08:56):
throwback episode yeah, city ofAngels.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where, wherewe learned there are no pianos
in hell.
And it was just, I mean, theythrow all these things in now
and then just as like, a littlelike reminder that he's been
around for a long time, but itwas those three was a curious.
It just felt curious to me thatthose were the three that he
(09:17):
threw out.
So, anyway, that kind of stuck.
And then the last thing Iwanted to say is actually the
last thing in that episode, whenafter he's sort of sat and
stewed watching Pierce and Chloekind of flirt and leave for the
concert, and then he goes toLinda and says I'm afraid I've
made a terrible mistake.
I know this is my socialconditioning, but that
(09:41):
devastated face that Ellis givesus, I know, oh, my heart just
wants to take care of him, Iknow, and I like I really do
think it's it's, it's a littlebit the pathos of the story, but
it's mainly Ellis's delivery.
He just he, he, he's, he's.
So he has so much control overhis face that he gave me the
(10:03):
precise facial expression thatjust helped me into a puddle
that wanted to take care of him.
So I just wanted to like namethat out loud.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So my goodness yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yours if you felt that way you're not alone.
Yeah Well, I mean, I think youand I've discussed about how I'm
not proud of this, but myfavorite Lucifer is devastated.
Yeah yeah, there's somethingabout not really, it's just that
that's when I feel most likeclose to the character.
Yeah, there's like a compulsionto to somehow try and comfort,
(10:40):
yeah, which I feel certain issocial conditioning.
I don't think that that is likea, you know, genetic impulse,
although maybe there is a littlebit.
I I imagine there is some likeevolutionary probably an
evolutionary benefit to havingpeople have that kind of
compassion.
Yeah, because then the speciessurvives when bad shit happens.
(11:00):
But it is strong, oh, it is,it's very strong with Ellis,
yeah.
So so I mentioned before westarted recording that on this
rewatch I noticed something thatI think was intentional on the
on the parts of the show runners, which is there's a whole lot
of mirroring in this episode.
So it starts off with Azara andher backup dancer switching, so
(11:23):
they were kind of mirrors ofeach other, and then the Azara
and Lucifer are kind of a mirrorof each other, like the reason
why he is so frustrated by hersbecause she's him.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Just like him yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
She's just like him.
And then there's the mirroringbetween Lucifer and CeCe and
they are doing not the same,because while what he is doing
is putting other people indanger, in his own head, like,
and then there's something kindof not okay about that, like, oh
so you're okay with Ellagetting hurt, but you're not
okay with Chloe.
(11:54):
That's not okay.
But he's never actually hurtinganyone.
He's not and he's not directlycausing anyone's injury.
Yeah, so there's that mirroring.
Well, what I find interestingis in the very first scene, when
you're seeing the, the concert,azara's like logo over top of
the stage is her name, and thenthere's like a mirror image of
(12:14):
it underneath of it, like it'sreflected in a pool, and I was
just like hey, that wasintentional, nice job, and I
like did not notice it untilthis was my third or fourth
watch through, yeah, and so Ijust I thought that was really,
really interesting and you know,that's the sort of thing I can
remember writing papers on backin the day and I was also paying
(12:40):
a little more attention to theways in which Azara and Lucifer
are similar, because I rememberthe first couple of times
watching this I didn't really.
I love Sky Towns and the actresswho plays Azara.
I think she does a fantasticjob and like those are her
actual, those are her originalsongs.
Oh, wow, she sings as Azara,yeah, cool.
That was that I thought wasreally cool.
(13:00):
But I did not particularly likeAzara as a person the first
couple of times through and thenthis time through, I was like
why did I feel that way?
Like she does seem to have someexpectations and demands that
seem a little outlandish, butshe is like she seems like a
genuine and passionate andinteresting and compelling and
(13:22):
charming person in much likeLucifer, yeah.
So, and some of it I think isis we are kind of led to dislike
her by the writing a little bit, but I think some of it is also
like some internalized misogynyand some misogynoir, probably.
Yeah probably it's hard to avoid.
(13:43):
And also like I think you'reright, the writing because of
the former backup singer whodoes the drag show as Azara, and
and his partner definitely likegive you a, you know, just talk
about a mirror right, like hemirrors back then the negative
pieces of the diva persona thatshe has put on and wears as she
(14:06):
moves through the world.
So I think that definitely.
And then also, as like a firsttime viewer, the scene where
she's trying to have sex withLucifer, like it's jarring,
because as a viewer you're likeno, chloe, you know, but
actually within the confines ofthe show, I mean, he's, he, he's
(14:27):
.
He could just as easily havebeen like oh, cool, perk, sure
thing.
Yeah, you know, like didn'tknow this bodyguard and then gig
came with benefits.
You know, like he could just aseasily have said something like
that and it would have been inkeeping with the character
because he resists or something.
I think that also is a kind ofa massage massage like trope
(14:50):
right Of the hypersexualizedblack woman.
Yes, so that kind of like feedsinto that a little bit.
Now, they didn't.
I don't think the showrunnerslike did that on purpose.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
That wasn't intentional.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And I don't think that actually they leaned on it
too hard, because when it'sclear, when it becomes clear to
her that he's not interested.
And that he's upset, like shehas the same reaction we do.
She wants to comfort him, so Ithink that that softens it a bit
, but I understand why.
Sort of a surface view was kindof like I'm not sure how I feel
(15:23):
about her.
Yeah, well, and what struck methis time through is how
compassionate she seems to bethroughout.
Yeah, because her immediatereaction when the backup dancer
is like she comes running, she'sthe only one who runs out to
the prone body To Jill yeah.
And is calling someone pleaseget some help.
(15:44):
And then when she gives adviceto Lucifer, it's good advice.
So, yes, she like distracts himso she can go down and get her
fill of being in the spotlight,and that's something.
She just goes to the nightclubdownstairs.
Yeah, exactly so.
And it's also like we areprogrammed to be uncomfortable
(16:08):
with women who seek thespotlight.
Yeah, that's part of ourculture, mm.
Hmm, she has to be beautiful,but not know.
She's beautiful Exactly,exactly.
And so like, oh, oh me, no, no,no, I couldn't possibly sing
All right, right, belted out,whereas, like, she's
(16:28):
phenomenally talented.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, give me the mic yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
She actually says that Give me the microphone,
yeah, and like that interactionis funny, but also like in some
ways kind of priming us to belike what a diva.
But I'm like why is that a badthing, mm?
Hmm, you know.
And then her reaction to Ceceis compelling as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
She is compassionate to Cece.
She is very compassionate toCece and also like horrified,
you know, like how could you dothis?
Like.
And also when Cece is like whenwere you gonna give this up?
And she's like I'm never gonnagive up singing, and Cece is
like not even for me, like howdo you not know this about me by
(17:11):
now?
And like it's devastating thingfor Cece to hear, but she
doesn't say it in any way that'sother than just factual and
Right.
It's not insulting at all andin fact it's delivered with kind
of a Kindness I mean Kind toneat least.
Yeah, yeah, that exchange isinteresting because Cece says
(17:32):
how can you not know by now thatI love you?
And then Azara says how can younot know by now that this is
who?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I am.
This is who I am.
Yeah, it was another mirror.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Another mirror?
Yeah, exactly Of how can younot Of the language, the
language itself.
And actually, speaking ofmirrors, I didn't think of this
until you said it, but at theend of that episode well, almost
the end when Pierce andAmenadiel are watching, pierce
sees a mirror of himself inLucifer Right.
(18:03):
When Amenadiel says if mybrother, the devil, can have
that, and then Pierce says maybeI can have it too, like I feel
like there's a mirroring thereas well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well, and it's a similar to the mirror of Lucifer
and Cece, in that it's a darkmirror because Cain's not saying
like maybe I could also havesomeone who cares about me, and
no, he's saying maybe I couldhave Chloe, yeah, maybe I could
have Chloe too, Mm-hmm yeah.
Yeah, and that like it's a verymanipulative, like no, he's a
(18:40):
completely Machiavelliancharacter.
Yeah, who cannot sing?
I mean, I cannot sing, but Ican do better than his dust in
the wind.
It sounded like he had a frogin his throat, I know, I don't
know what that was about.
I think the whole idea ofmirroring throughout is really
interesting in how that'shandled.
That maybe can segue us intothe next episode where there's a
(19:02):
copycat which is a form of kindof mirror, but also not so in
my memory.
I really liked this episodebecause I liked the way they
said like Lucifer up is thejilted lover on the radio show,
but in rewatch I did not enjoyit as much as I did in my memory
, which is interesting,Interesting, yeah, what didn't
(19:22):
you like about it?
I think, because in the rewatchlike I'm really feeling how
manipulative Pierce is and soChloe's confusion, attraction,
whatever is genuine but Pierce'sisn't, and that just feels
really yucky.
And also I think I don't know,there's something about the
(19:46):
pathos of Lucifer in thisepisode, like realizing in this
episode talking about mirrors,that you don't get to decide who
somebody wants to be with, butalso like she does wanna be with
him, right, like when he comesto apologize she's like you
wanna stay on my coffee, likeshe does wanna be with him, and
(20:06):
we've talked you and I havetalked about why he feels that
that is unfair to her, that shecan't actually authentically
give consent, and also it justis a frustrating episode, like
it's just unrequited.
And yet it's not evenunrequited, it's required.
But frustrated affection.
Well, and that's speaking ofmirrors.
(20:26):
That's true also with Pierceand Kay in 1958.
Yep, because he does like her,which you can feel when he comes
into the bar and sees hergranddaughter.
And he's so excited and so likesome of that excitement I think
could be like, oh my goodness,there's someone else who's like
(20:48):
me.
But some of it is also likeit's not just anyone else, it's
this person.
He really did like her becausehe did lower his defenses a bit
in the 50s.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So there is that like frustrated affection that is
requited but just, you know,choosing not to for whatever
reason.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It doesn't make me wonder, like if Pierce is, 1958
is only 60 years ago, so if he'sgotten worse.
But like why wouldn't he have,I mean, over thousands of years,
why would the last 60 be Be so?
Yeah, just because he seemslike a diligent police officer
as of then he did care aboutsolving that crime.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, but you know now he's a crime boss.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, he's a crime boss who just kind of uses.
So I mean, and it might just belike well, this is what I do
now, you know yeah.
And then the, the.
The way he felt about K seems alot more genuine than what he
feels about Chloe.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Agreed.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So one thought I had is like, don't all these people
feel like toddlers to him?
Right, yeah, I have that sense,like when I see, like a college
student these days, I'm justlike you're a fetus, right,
right, yeah, so little, butyou're a fetus, or just yeah,
(22:17):
yeah, like, and I always havethat problem with any kind of
supernatural story where there'san immortal who falls in love
with a normal human.
I'm just like, how is that?
I mean, at least Chloe is a fullgrown adult, you know like the
ones that like the vampires,where, like the, the two
thousand year old vampire fallsin love with a 16 year old, like
now.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That's just, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's pedophilia, yeah, but yeah, the the fact
that's like he has so much morelife experience than anyone.
He talks to it just and youknow, ok, that kind of speaks to
why he is feels comfortablemanipulating and is OK, like you
know, just recognizing likethey're going to be gone, like
that anyway.
So yeah, so I mean that's kindof like the essence of
(23:02):
narcissism, like I'm the onlyreal person here, because
everyone else is just in thewind.
All they are is dust in thewind.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I mean, but it's.
It's understandable that he isthe way he is, but it's maybe.
I haven't been that way?
He wouldn't be that way.
So I have one like little likepicky question about this
episode, and then I, and then Iwant to talk about a Menaceal
and Charlotte.
So my picky thing is they findthe strong boy with the video
(23:36):
taping out front of the addressand they realize that that must
be how the killer is getting theaddress.
It's not actually someone fromthe radio show, but they
interrupted him before he didanything.
No, no, no, no, no, it's, he'sfilming the backup.
But he also uploads film of theradio show without things
bleeped.
Oh, ok, I thought he went tosee.
(23:58):
Ok, ok, ok, so he's doing both.
But yeah, that's how the thekiller had the address.
Yes, yes, I thought that he didthe like when the partner
confronts them on edited.
But OK, all right, I'm with younow, never mind.
So thank you for answering mypicky question.
And and let's talk about aMenaceal and Charlotte.
(24:20):
I guess that I think it spansthe two episodes, right, it's
not, or maybe it's all in theone.
But a Menaceal sees Charlotteand thinks that she's still the
goddess and like, says a bunchof stuff, and Charlotte's like,
oh, do I know you?
Yeah, and then Linda tells himlike leave her alone because
it's too much.
But we we?
(24:43):
The close of that story arc isthey sit down to coffee with a
Menaceal saying I have so muchto tell you.
So I'm like, hmm well, this isthe test of Menaceal.
Like many deals like convincedthat there's a test.
Menaceal, there's a test.
Yeah, yeah, I would say likegeez, lucifer, can you give your
(25:04):
brother a little heads up?
By the way, charlotte returnsto soul life.
Yeah, so, like you know, thethe most recent incarnation of
our mom you might see her aroundLos Angeles.
It's not mom anymore, butthat's not mom, so don't be
weird.
So yeah, it's, it's a.
(25:25):
That's a good point.
Like you'd think that, sincehe's got his eye out although
that is that is another incharacter in keeping with a
Menaceal is he has such siblingrivalry with his brother that he
always assumes that's where thetest is going to be.
That's true, like it's, it's.
He's got that blind spot where,like you know, like well, it's
(25:45):
got to be Lucifer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Got to be Lucifer, because he's the pain in my ass,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And then there's also the like, the very real grief
of not having been able to saygoodbye to his mother.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I think that there's it's well within character for
him to not tread cautiously.
True, I don't think that Lindagives him bad advice, like,
she's absolutely right.
Charlotte is fragile.
This could be really damagingto her.
At the same time, her fragilitycomes from the fact that she
doesn't know what happened toher.
(26:17):
Doesn't know what happened toher and has had interaction with
the celestial world and andcannot process it because she
doesn't understand it.
So, you know, in some ways thiswould be a like a valid
Slinging yeah, yeah, this is,she's not, she's not crazy, yeah
, which is all she wants to know.
(26:39):
So I can understand both why,why Menaceal, like just you know
, you know verbal diarrhea whenhe saw her, and then also why he
is going against Linda's advice.
And he also saw Charlotte'sreaction, which Linda did not,
right, I?
(27:00):
I know Linda is supposed to bean amazing therapist and I like
I'm willing to go with the showon that, but her being
distracted during that wasunacceptable.
It's not not acceptable.
And then her accepting helpfrom her client that way, not OK
.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So, like for anyone watching who doesn't know that
is not how therapy works.
Yeah, not acceptable, notacceptable.
I think I would break up withthis rank.
Who was like doodling, doodling, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yes.
And it's not like the likeafter Lucifer reveals his face
(27:40):
to Linda and she's like she'sfinally letting him back in and
she's like what about Hitler?
You know that distraction isdifferent.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
It makes a different sense.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
This is like completely unrelated.
It's yeah and it's no.
It's it's.
It's unacceptable, it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
But let's talk about that Dynamic like it's I don't
know if I believe it the Mazewould be so inconsolable about
not just her best friend, butkind of her only friend.
As I try to see aside fromTrixie, who, she, she also had a
family.
Yeah, not on purpose, yeah, butstill I mean, I know that sort
(28:22):
of self-destructive is in Maze'snature, but I don't know it
doesn't.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
So there's a.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I read the AV Club review of these two episodes.
I really like them.
It's a Latoya Ferguson is thereviewer who does them, and one
of the things she talks about ishow, prior to May's meeting
Trixie and Linda, her onlyfriend was Lucifer and that's
not a normal human relationshipor friendship and they have this
(28:56):
dynamic where, like, they canpummel on each other, like
literally physically, and so oneof the things that Ferguson
pointed out is that she knowsshe can't do that to Linda, but
she's found another way, soshe's emotionally pummeling
Linda and I'm like, ok, yeah,that I appreciated that
(29:18):
description of it because it'skind of contextualizes what's
going on with May's and thatit's a pattern that she has
which, yes, she's always selfdestructive, but also that she,
when she gets into whatever thispattern is, she just keeps
going.
Like exhaustion, yeah, that'swhat we saw with when they
(29:41):
fought.
Yes, well, and even early on inlike the first season, before
she met Trixie and Linda, therewould be times where she would
beat Lucifer Intentionally andlike there's there's one point
where he gets like really angryat her and she's like there he
is.
That's what I'm looking for.
And so some of this is also thefact that Linda will not fight
(30:02):
back, so like she doesn't knowhow to.
I mean, as a demon, you know,among thousands, she doesn't
know how to interact withsomeone who won't punch back.
And while Linda does punch backin this episode she does, but
it's still comparatively yeah,because I'm still to say I did
(30:23):
all that because that's howimportant you are to me.
Yes, yeah, whereas I think thatMay's kind of needs her to be
like you're nothing, bitch, andblah, blah, blah, blah, and then
she'd feel better.
But because Linda is just likelook, I did this for you and
you're making me really upsetand angry and like and it just I
(30:45):
just mays just cannot.
Mays just cannot cope withmaturely handling negative
emotions, so she keeps spiralingand spiraling and spiraling.
I think that that's actually Ilike that that that, actually
that full explanation andcontext.
I buy that.
Yeah, yeah, I buy that becauseand this is I mean this is a
(31:08):
hard season to watch of whatMays does yeah, for Mays fans,
yeah, yeah.
But I think it fits with thecharacter, and particularly once
, once I read the reviewer'sreview that was like, oh yeah,
that really does fit for whoMays is.
And then realizing how badly shescrewed up after Trixie runs
(31:31):
with crying Right and that'lljust cause more spiraling shame.
Yeah, yeah, and that's in someways it's going to be kind of
like I thought I hit rock bottom, but they're still lower and
that that's.
I can't watch that scene, likewhen, when Trixie, you see her
face and she runs away, god, itjust Like it's.
(31:55):
It's so hard because I putmyself in Trixie's position,
thinking about like as a kid andsome adult, you, I the grown up
that you idolize.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, allright.
Well, we have over a thingquite a bit, quite a bit.
Do you have some fluff that youwant to share?
Goodness, let's see the fluff.
(32:16):
When Ella is trying to cheer upPierce and she took the
compliment box around, everysingle everybody says he has
nice arms.
That's all we have to say aboutTom Welling.
Yeah, that is, you have nicearms.
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm worriedwe're not going to be able to
(32:38):
top last week, a week before us,yeah, right, right.
So my fluff is that I remainunconvinced that there is any
chemistry between Lauren Germanand Tom Welling.
But that's like they have.
They have Ella be the like.
Ella is the Greek chorus.
To be like they bone, she'stotally the Greek chorus.
(33:01):
Yeah, ella is totally the Greekcourse, because without that
character saying like, wow, it'slike flaming hot in there, yeah
, we wouldn't see it at allNothing.
So I just want to say, likekudos to our show runners who
recognize that there was aproblem and they solved it.
Solved it.
We got these two wooden actorswho are supposed to be like
(33:27):
trying to repress, being hot foreach other.
Yeah, let's bring Amy Gardner.
See, I am, and thank you foryour service, amy, I do love the
like.
Lucifer's response is like thedetective does not bone.
Like are you imagining she onlymakes sweet love?
(33:48):
I was actually waiting for herto say something like that.
She makes love.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not with him,yeah.
There's more chemistry betweenthem.
I feel like Pearson, kay,agreed, yeah, and like what's
going?
I mean, why is that?
Because there's chemistrybetween Lucifer and Chloe,
(34:10):
definitely, definitely.
I don't know if it's well, or,you know, it could be the Joey
from Friends rule where, like,if two actors have chemistry on
stage that's because theyhaven't done it, but if they
don't have chemistry on stageit's because they're totally
doing it.
Oh so, maybe not that I want tolike cast dispersions on learn
(34:35):
German and Tom Welling, but no,I don't think that's it, that's
probably not it.
But I just, I was, Iappreciated that, well, and Joey
proved it by saying have I hadchemistry with any actress I've
been on stage with?
No See, there you go.
Oh.
So my last piece of fluff isactually quite dense, which is I
(34:58):
have a hard time believing thatCain is lugging rocks around
the world for thousands of years.
I mean the thing about likethere they stay the same and
they're reliable, like okay,that's, I guess.
I guess that's in keeping witha 5,000 year old man, but he
moves all the time.
He's not like packing up allthe time.
(35:20):
Well, I mean, maybe he justkeeps a collection of rocks,
like he's got storage in everycity.
I don't know Cause this can'tbe his entire collection either.
The other thing that, like I'mreally overthinking in here, but
they have one of the rocks waslike a, like a giant, like
Nautilus fossil, which thecreationist story and fossils,
(35:47):
and they're both, like they'reoften presented as binary.
Well, I mean they, well, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I created.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Earth with the fossils in it.
Yeah, so they're God's Eastereggs.
Cain, has you crack it open?
There's chocolate inside andit's just on us that we've never
tried that.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, that that I like.
I was like, oh interesting,they put a fossil in his rock
collection and I also I honestlyfound it interesting that he
(36:16):
lived in a very well maintainedmid-century modern house which
would have been new in 1958.
Yeah, and I'm like, thousandsupon thousands of years, that's
really the, the style I meanlike, and also, you know, I know
, real estate is what it is solike, what's what's available
when you're.
He also said I want, I like itfor the view.
(36:37):
So, yeah, that's true, but it'sfurnished in mid-century modern
style as well, like that's.
The thing that got me is likeit's not the eclectic range of
all kinds of weird furnitureyou'd have if you'd live for
5000 years and lug rocks around.
I liked it.
I mean, I very much likemid-century modern aesthetic.
(36:57):
It's a gorgeous house andgorgeous set piece, but it was
just like thousands of years.
Also, does he speak?
Like?
Does he speak every language?
I mean, he must speak many,right?
I think we're not supposed tothink too much about the
languages in this show.
Like I think if you startthinking too much about the
(37:20):
language that they use, like itfalls apart.
Like there's no way that amen-a-deal would call him Lucy,
you know.
Like it would be Sammy.
Yeah, he was going to shortenhis name.
Yeah, you know, and I know hedoesn't go by that name anymore.
But still that's the name heknew him as, and he didn't
become Lucifer until after hefell Right, I just yeah, but
(37:44):
they all call him Lucifer thegoddess when she came back into
Charlotte's body.
Lucifer, I must find Lucifer no.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, she the point.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be a funTV show for 21st century
Americans if they were likespeaking person's shit or
Sumerian or whateverproto-Semitic language.
This wouldn't be fun.
Yeah, yeah, very true, verytrue.
All right, we have wayoverthought it.
Oh, my goodness, I really thinkthat we have over thunkin'
(38:16):
enough for one Lightbringersepisode, all right.
Well, I'm going to go find aNautilus shell and see if
there's chocolate inside.
Let me know how it works out.
I'll let you know how it worksout.
See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
All right, thanks for watching.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Here's a fun fact Emily's office is adjacent to
her kitchen.
In today's episode you can hearthe distinct sounds of a
dishwasher being unloaded in thebackground.
But stick with us, it's worthit.
Hi there, I am here with mysister, tracy Guy Decker, and
she does use a hyphen, and I amhere with my sister, emily Guy
Birkin, does not use a hyphen.
(00:41):
I do not Together.
We are Lightbringers where weinvestigate, no, we illuminate.
Yeah, we illuminate.
It's a thing that we did.
It's a thing that we do becausewe're Lightbringers, we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
, where if you're crime-solving,you're investigating.
(01:02):
Hence my confusion and need formore coffee.
And yes, we're overthinking itif you could tell, always
overthinking it, alwaysoverthinking it.
And so today we're going to beoverthinking episodes 3, 17 and
3, 18.
Let Pinhead Sing and the LastHeartbreak.
(01:26):
That's correct, the LastHeartbreak.
Yes, so these are interestingepisodes.
It's funny.
My spouse came in while I waswatching Let Pinhead Sing and
like in the middle I was like,wow, lucifer is kind of a jerk
in this one.
And I was like, yeah, luciferis kind of a jerk, I actually.
So I had a similar thing wheremy spouse happened to come in
(01:48):
during the duet.
I will survive.
I will survive duet betweenAzara and Lucifer and he's not a
fan of this show, but he's justlike that's well done, like I
love the, like where's it?
Well, don't go.
Like he's like you're in dangerand like singing until he gets
into it.
And I was just like I know,yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
The show was really well done.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
The showrunners really lucked out with their
casting.
That Ellis is also a vocaltalent.
Oh my goodness, he'sphenomenally talented.
He's so great, he's so great,yeah, so let's talk about Let
Pinhead Sing.
There's when I am overthinkingit, which is what we do.
So the sort of surface level ofwhat's happening is that
(02:34):
Lucifer has realized that he maybe putting Chloe in danger by
loving her, basically because ifdad is angry like dad, the God
might take Chloe away by killingher in some way, like the bomb
in the infernal guinea pigepisode, and so Lucifer is
trying to divert his attentionso that he can trick God into
(03:00):
thinking that he doesn't careabout Chloe, which just even on
the surface level doesn't reallywork.
Yeah, that does not.
It just doesn't.
It doesn't make sense, itdoesn't make sense.
Even within the universe ofLucifer we have seen that the
Celestials know that they can,like reach one another by
(03:24):
praying.
I mean maybe that that needs tobe intentional before the other
Celestial can read their mind.
But still, like God's differentfrom the angels, like there's
the whole omniscience thing andLucifer has said repeatedly you
know all powerful, like yeah,yeah, it just doesn't like.
(03:45):
The whole premise of whyLucifer is behaving that way
Just doesn't make sense.
Though Azaria says Azara,excuse me.
Azara says to Lucifer why areyou trying to convince yourself
you don't like her?
And Lucifer says I'm not tryingto convince myself, but
actually maybe that is a morebelievable premise that he
(04:10):
thought maybe he could actuallymake himself stop liking her or
stop loving her so that itwouldn't be just trying to trick
God but actually be true.
But either way, it was kind ofa weak premise for the way that
he behaved.
Yeah, I thought so.
Anyway, that was, that was mymain kind of storytelling
(04:31):
critique of that pinhead sayingIn some ways it felt like there
was a bit of a they're forcingthe parallels because with the
case of the week it's Cici, theassistant is trying to keep
Azara safe by turning thespotlight elsewhere, sort of by
(04:53):
scaring her out of the spotlight.
Scaring her out of thespotlight, yeah, so that like
there's that clear parallel,like you know, like that's even
what Linda says is like you'rein the spotlight and he's like I
can't get out of the spotlightbut I can get her out of the
spotlight.
Right, and even the compassionthat when catching the killer,
when Lucifer tackles Cici andCici says I was just trying to
(05:15):
protect her, lucifer has a lotof compassion and says I know,
you know, so you're right.
I mean there always is, therealways is a parallel with the
case of the week.
I think what you're saying isthat they were pushing harder on
it and it kind of made it thatyou didn't have the structural
integrity necessary to push sohard.
Yeah, yeah, Based on theuniverse that they had created
(05:36):
of how God works.
Yeah, Although there issomething to be said, and some
of this I am, I think, forgivingof things that Lucifer
character because of how wellTom Ellis plays him.
But there is something toLucifer being sort of person
(05:57):
creature who sticks his fingersin his ears and goes la la, la,
la, la, la, la la la la la la,la, la, la, la la.
For sure that's in character,yes, and so that is a little bit
of what's going on.
I can almost see him being likehe's lit on this and he also is
like kind of shiny new toy whenit comes to ideas and things
like that.
And he's lit on this like, oh,this will work.
(06:21):
So he definitely has like likewith the high school poppycock.
He like needed that bookchapter to figure out his
problem.
So he definitely does kind offixate on a specific idea.
So yeah, I mean that is that isan in keeping with the
character development that we'veseen of Lucifer.
So, I do want to say him like,trying to show his affection for
(06:45):
other people to varying degreesis actually really like it's it
touches.
Like.
So with Ella, he finds theperfect shirt for her.
She's wearing it later in theshow.
She like, yeah, she loves it.
Well, I mean style, like, evenlike, yeah, the like what is it
(07:07):
called?
The baseball with the blueslaves?
Yeah, yeah, so like he got itin one.
Then Bob, the security guard,whose name you can't remember,
but when he says like he's mynew favorite person, and Bob is
like oh, yeah, and even laterwhen they, when they come to the
penthouse and as far as and Bobjust looks at him and now it's
(07:32):
really cute.
And again, some of that is likethe actor playing Bob Didn't I
show he did, he did Like causesome of what was so endearing
about him going like oh wasbecause he was so like immovable
, he was in, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
That's for Robert, no , so, so, yeah, I really do Like
there's something to that too,in that Lucifer has such charm
that he is able to kind of likehave people feel convinced, like
oh, I am special to him eventhough I just met him.
(08:09):
Yeah, two more things that Iwant to share.
And then I want you hadsomething about mirroring that
I'd like to make sure we get forthe episode.
So one is like the when they'rein the penthouse and Azara says
is this thing a prop or is itreally working?
He says Mozart, liberace, elton, I taught them all and I was
(08:36):
like, huh, that okay, because wealso I mean, we also have seen
him we in the very beginninglike there are no pianos in hell
, right?
So he's like delighted.
No, it's not the very beginning, sorry, it's the, the, the the
(08:56):
throwback episode yeah, city ofAngels.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where, wherewe learned there are no pianos
in hell.
And it was just, I mean, theythrow all these things in now
and then just as like, a littlelike reminder that he's been
around for a long time, but itwas those three was a curious.
It just felt curious to me thatthose were the three that he
(09:17):
threw out.
So, anyway, that kind of stuck.
And then the last thing Iwanted to say is actually the
last thing in that episode, whenafter he's sort of sat and
stewed watching Pierce and Chloekind of flirt and leave for the
concert, and then he goes toLinda and says I'm afraid I've
made a terrible mistake.
I know this is my socialconditioning, but that
(09:41):
devastated face that Ellis givesus, I know, oh, my heart just
wants to take care of him, Iknow, and I like I really do
think it's it's, it's a littlebit the pathos of the story, but
it's mainly Ellis's delivery.
He just he, he, he's, he's.
So he has so much control overhis face that he gave me the
(10:03):
precise facial expression thatjust helped me into a puddle
that wanted to take care of him.
So I just wanted to like namethat out loud.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So my goodness yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yours if you felt that way you're not alone.
Yeah Well, I mean, I think youand I've discussed about how I'm
not proud of this, but myfavorite Lucifer is devastated.
Yeah yeah, there's somethingabout not really, it's just that
that's when I feel most likeclose to the character.
Yeah, there's like a compulsionto to somehow try and comfort,
(10:40):
yeah, which I feel certain issocial conditioning.
I don't think that that is likea, you know, genetic impulse,
although maybe there is a littlebit.
I I imagine there is some likeevolutionary probably an
evolutionary benefit to havingpeople have that kind of
compassion.
Yeah, because then the speciessurvives when bad shit happens.
(11:00):
But it is strong, oh, it is,it's very strong with Ellis,
yeah.
So so I mentioned before westarted recording that on this
rewatch I noticed something thatI think was intentional on the
on the parts of the show runners, which is there's a whole lot
of mirroring in this episode.
So it starts off with Azara andher backup dancer switching, so
(11:23):
they were kind of mirrors ofeach other, and then the Azara
and Lucifer are kind of a mirrorof each other, like the reason
why he is so frustrated by hersbecause she's him.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Just like him yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
She's just like him.
And then there's the mirroringbetween Lucifer and CeCe and
they are doing not the same,because while what he is doing
is putting other people indanger, in his own head, like,
and then there's something kindof not okay about that, like, oh
so you're okay with Ellagetting hurt, but you're not
okay with Chloe.
(11:54):
That's not okay.
But he's never actually hurtinganyone.
He's not and he's not directlycausing anyone's injury.
Yeah, so there's that mirroring.
Well, what I find interestingis in the very first scene, when
you're seeing the, the concert,azara's like logo over top of
the stage is her name, and thenthere's like a mirror image of
(12:14):
it underneath of it, like it'sreflected in a pool, and I was
just like hey, that wasintentional, nice job, and I
like did not notice it untilthis was my third or fourth
watch through, yeah, and so Ijust I thought that was really,
really interesting and you know,that's the sort of thing I can
remember writing papers on backin the day and I was also paying
(12:40):
a little more attention to theways in which Azara and Lucifer
are similar, because I rememberthe first couple of times
watching this I didn't really.
I love Sky Towns and the actresswho plays Azara.
I think she does a fantasticjob and like those are her
actual, those are her originalsongs.
Oh, wow, she sings as Azara,yeah, cool.
That was that I thought wasreally cool.
(13:00):
But I did not particularly likeAzara as a person the first
couple of times through and thenthis time through, I was like
why did I feel that way?
Like she does seem to have someexpectations and demands that
seem a little outlandish, butshe is like she seems like a
genuine and passionate andinteresting and compelling and
(13:22):
charming person in much likeLucifer, yeah.
So, and some of it I think isis we are kind of led to dislike
her by the writing a little bit, but I think some of it is also
like some internalized misogynyand some misogynoir, probably.
Yeah probably it's hard to avoid.
(13:43):
And also like I think you'reright, the writing because of
the former backup singer whodoes the drag show as Azara, and
and his partner definitely likegive you a, you know, just talk
about a mirror right, like hemirrors back then the negative
pieces of the diva persona thatshe has put on and wears as she
(14:06):
moves through the world.
So I think that definitely.
And then also, as like a firsttime viewer, the scene where
she's trying to have sex withLucifer, like it's jarring,
because as a viewer you're likeno, chloe, you know, but
actually within the confines ofthe show, I mean, he's, he, he's
(14:27):
.
He could just as easily havebeen like oh, cool, perk, sure
thing.
Yeah, you know, like didn'tknow this bodyguard and then gig
came with benefits.
You know, like he could just aseasily have said something like
that and it would have been inkeeping with the character
because he resists or something.
I think that also is a kind ofa massage massage like trope
(14:50):
right Of the hypersexualizedblack woman.
Yes, so that kind of like feedsinto that a little bit.
Now, they didn't.
I don't think the showrunnerslike did that on purpose.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
That wasn't intentional.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And I don't think that actually they leaned on it
too hard, because when it'sclear, when it becomes clear to
her that he's not interested.
And that he's upset, like shehas the same reaction we do.
She wants to comfort him, so Ithink that that softens it a bit
, but I understand why.
Sort of a surface view was kindof like I'm not sure how I feel
(15:23):
about her.
Yeah, well, and what struck methis time through is how
compassionate she seems to bethroughout.
Yeah, because her immediatereaction when the backup dancer
is like she comes running, she'sthe only one who runs out to
the prone body To Jill yeah.
And is calling someone pleaseget some help.
(15:44):
And then when she gives adviceto Lucifer, it's good advice.
So, yes, she like distracts himso she can go down and get her
fill of being in the spotlight,and that's something.
She just goes to the nightclubdownstairs.
Yeah, exactly so.
And it's also like we areprogrammed to be uncomfortable
(16:08):
with women who seek thespotlight.
Yeah, that's part of ourculture, mm.
Hmm, she has to be beautiful,but not know.
She's beautiful Exactly,exactly.
And so like, oh, oh me, no, no,no, I couldn't possibly sing
All right, right, belted out,whereas, like, she's
(16:28):
phenomenally talented.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, give me the mic yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
She actually says that Give me the microphone,
yeah, and like that interactionis funny, but also like in some
ways kind of priming us to belike what a diva.
But I'm like why is that a badthing, mm?
Hmm, you know.
And then her reaction to Ceceis compelling as well.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
She is compassionate to Cece.
She is very compassionate toCece and also like horrified,
you know, like how could you dothis?
Like.
And also when Cece is like whenwere you gonna give this up?
And she's like I'm never gonnagive up singing, and Cece is
like not even for me, like howdo you not know this about me by
(17:11):
now?
And like it's devastating thingfor Cece to hear, but she
doesn't say it in any way that'sother than just factual and
Right.
It's not insulting at all andin fact it's delivered with kind
of a Kindness I mean Kind toneat least.
Yeah, yeah, that exchange isinteresting because Cece says
(17:32):
how can you not know by now thatI love you?
And then Azara says how can younot know by now that this is
who?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
I am.
This is who I am.
Yeah, it was another mirror.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Another mirror?
Yeah, exactly Of how can younot Of the language, the
language itself.
And actually, speaking ofmirrors, I didn't think of this
until you said it, but at theend of that episode well, almost
the end when Pierce andAmenadiel are watching, pierce
sees a mirror of himself inLucifer Right.
(18:03):
When Amenadiel says if mybrother, the devil, can have
that, and then Pierce says maybeI can have it too, like I feel
like there's a mirroring thereas well.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well, and it's a similar to the mirror of Lucifer
and Cece, in that it's a darkmirror because Cain's not saying
like maybe I could also havesomeone who cares about me, and
no, he's saying maybe I couldhave Chloe, yeah, maybe I could
have Chloe too, Mm-hmm yeah.
Yeah, and that like it's a verymanipulative, like no, he's a
(18:40):
completely Machiavelliancharacter.
Yeah, who cannot sing?
I mean, I cannot sing, but Ican do better than his dust in
the wind.
It sounded like he had a frogin his throat, I know, I don't
know what that was about.
I think the whole idea ofmirroring throughout is really
interesting in how that'shandled.
That maybe can segue us intothe next episode where there's a
(19:02):
copycat which is a form of kindof mirror, but also not so in
my memory.
I really liked this episodebecause I liked the way they
said like Lucifer up is thejilted lover on the radio show,
but in rewatch I did not enjoyit as much as I did in my memory
, which is interesting,Interesting, yeah, what didn't
(19:22):
you like about it?
I think, because in the rewatchlike I'm really feeling how
manipulative Pierce is and soChloe's confusion, attraction,
whatever is genuine but Pierce'sisn't, and that just feels
really yucky.
And also I think I don't know,there's something about the
(19:46):
pathos of Lucifer in thisepisode, like realizing in this
episode talking about mirrors,that you don't get to decide who
somebody wants to be with, butalso like she does wanna be with
him, right, like when he comesto apologize she's like you
wanna stay on my coffee, likeshe does wanna be with him, and
(20:06):
we've talked you and I havetalked about why he feels that
that is unfair to her, that shecan't actually authentically
give consent, and also it justis a frustrating episode, like
it's just unrequited.
And yet it's not evenunrequited, it's required.
But frustrated affection.
Well, and that's speaking ofmirrors.
(20:26):
That's true also with Pierceand Kay in 1958.
Yep, because he does like her,which you can feel when he comes
into the bar and sees hergranddaughter.
And he's so excited and so likesome of that excitement I think
could be like, oh my goodness,there's someone else who's like
(20:48):
me.
But some of it is also likeit's not just anyone else, it's
this person.
He really did like her becausehe did lower his defenses a bit
in the 50s.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So there is that like frustrated affection that is
requited but just, you know,choosing not to for whatever
reason.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It doesn't make me wonder, like if Pierce is, 1958
is only 60 years ago, so if he'sgotten worse.
But like why wouldn't he have,I mean, over thousands of years,
why would the last 60 be Be so?
Yeah, just because he seemslike a diligent police officer
as of then he did care aboutsolving that crime.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, but you know now he's a crime boss.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, he's a crime boss who just kind of uses.
So I mean, and it might just belike well, this is what I do
now, you know yeah.
And then the, the.
The way he felt about K seems alot more genuine than what he
feels about Chloe.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Agreed.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
So one thought I had is like, don't all these people
feel like toddlers to him?
Right, yeah, I have that sense,like when I see, like a college
student these days, I'm justlike you're a fetus, right,
right, yeah, so little, butyou're a fetus, or just yeah,
(22:17):
yeah, like, and I always havethat problem with any kind of
supernatural story where there'san immortal who falls in love
with a normal human.
I'm just like, how is that?
I mean, at least Chloe is a fullgrown adult, you know like the
ones that like the vampires,where, like the, the two
thousand year old vampire fallsin love with a 16 year old, like
now.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
That's just, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's pedophilia, yeah, but yeah, the the fact
that's like he has so much morelife experience than anyone.
He talks to it just and youknow, ok, that kind of speaks to
why he is feels comfortablemanipulating and is OK, like you
know, just recognizing likethey're going to be gone, like
that anyway.
So yeah, so I mean that's kindof like the essence of
(23:02):
narcissism, like I'm the onlyreal person here, because
everyone else is just in thewind.
All they are is dust in thewind.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I mean, but it's.
It's understandable that he isthe way he is, but it's maybe.
I haven't been that way?
He wouldn't be that way.
So I have one like little likepicky question about this
episode, and then I, and then Iwant to talk about a Menaceal
and Charlotte.
So my picky thing is they findthe strong boy with the video
(23:36):
taping out front of the addressand they realize that that must
be how the killer is getting theaddress.
It's not actually someone fromthe radio show, but they
interrupted him before he didanything.
No, no, no, no, no, it's, he'sfilming the backup.
But he also uploads film of theradio show without things
bleeped.
Oh, ok, I thought he went tosee.
(23:58):
Ok, ok, ok, so he's doing both.
But yeah, that's how the thekiller had the address.
Yes, yes, I thought that he didthe like when the partner
confronts them on edited.
But OK, all right, I'm with younow, never mind.
So thank you for answering mypicky question.
And and let's talk about aMenaceal and Charlotte.
(24:20):
I guess that I think it spansthe two episodes, right, it's
not, or maybe it's all in theone.
But a Menaceal sees Charlotteand thinks that she's still the
goddess and like, says a bunchof stuff, and Charlotte's like,
oh, do I know you?
Yeah, and then Linda tells himlike leave her alone because
it's too much.
But we we?
(24:43):
The close of that story arc isthey sit down to coffee with a
Menaceal saying I have so muchto tell you.
So I'm like, hmm well, this isthe test of Menaceal.
Like many deals like convincedthat there's a test.
Menaceal, there's a test.
Yeah, yeah, I would say likegeez, lucifer, can you give your
(25:04):
brother a little heads up?
By the way, charlotte returnsto soul life.
Yeah, so, like you know, thethe most recent incarnation of
our mom you might see her aroundLos Angeles.
It's not mom anymore, butthat's not mom, so don't be
weird.
So yeah, it's, it's a.
(25:25):
That's a good point.
Like you'd think that, sincehe's got his eye out although
that is that is another incharacter in keeping with a
Menaceal is he has such siblingrivalry with his brother that he
always assumes that's where thetest is going to be.
That's true, like it's, it's.
He's got that blind spot where,like you know, like well, it's
(25:45):
got to be Lucifer.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Got to be Lucifer, because he's the pain in my ass,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
And then there's also the like, the very real grief
of not having been able to saygoodbye to his mother.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I think that there's it's well within character for
him to not tread cautiously.
True, I don't think that Lindagives him bad advice, like,
she's absolutely right.
Charlotte is fragile.
This could be really damagingto her.
At the same time, her fragilitycomes from the fact that she
doesn't know what happened toher.
(26:17):
Doesn't know what happened toher and has had interaction with
the celestial world and andcannot process it because she
doesn't understand it.
So, you know, in some ways thiswould be a like a valid
Slinging yeah, yeah, this is,she's not, she's not crazy, yeah
, which is all she wants to know.
(26:39):
So I can understand both why,why Menaceal, like just you know
, you know verbal diarrhea whenhe saw her, and then also why he
is going against Linda's advice.
And he also saw Charlotte'sreaction, which Linda did not,
right, I?
(27:00):
I know Linda is supposed to bean amazing therapist and I like
I'm willing to go with the showon that, but her being
distracted during that wasunacceptable.
It's not not acceptable.
And then her accepting helpfrom her client that way, not OK
.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
So, like for anyone watching who doesn't know that
is not how therapy works.
Yeah, not acceptable, notacceptable.
I think I would break up withthis rank.
Who was like doodling, doodling, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yes.
And it's not like the likeafter Lucifer reveals his face
(27:40):
to Linda and she's like she'sfinally letting him back in and
she's like what about Hitler?
You know that distraction isdifferent.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
It makes a different sense.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
This is like completely unrelated.
It's yeah and it's no.
It's it's.
It's unacceptable, it's yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
But let's talk about that Dynamic like it's I don't
know if I believe it the Mazewould be so inconsolable about
not just her best friend, butkind of her only friend.
As I try to see aside fromTrixie, who, she, she also had a
family.
Yeah, not on purpose, yeah, butstill I mean, I know that sort
(28:22):
of self-destructive is in Maze'snature, but I don't know it
doesn't.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
So there's a.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I read the AV Club review of these two episodes.
I really like them.
It's a Latoya Ferguson is thereviewer who does them, and one
of the things she talks about ishow, prior to May's meeting
Trixie and Linda, her onlyfriend was Lucifer and that's
not a normal human relationshipor friendship and they have this
(28:56):
dynamic where, like, they canpummel on each other, like
literally physically, and so oneof the things that Ferguson
pointed out is that she knowsshe can't do that to Linda, but
she's found another way, soshe's emotionally pummeling
Linda and I'm like, ok, yeah,that I appreciated that
(29:18):
description of it because it'skind of contextualizes what's
going on with May's and thatit's a pattern that she has
which, yes, she's always selfdestructive, but also that she,
when she gets into whatever thispattern is, she just keeps
going.
Like exhaustion, yeah, that'swhat we saw with when they
(29:41):
fought.
Yes, well, and even early on inlike the first season, before
she met Trixie and Linda, therewould be times where she would
beat Lucifer Intentionally andlike there's there's one point
where he gets like really angryat her and she's like there he
is.
That's what I'm looking for.
And so some of this is also thefact that Linda will not fight
(30:02):
back, so like she doesn't knowhow to.
I mean, as a demon, you know,among thousands, she doesn't
know how to interact withsomeone who won't punch back.
And while Linda does punch backin this episode she does, but
it's still comparatively yeah,because I'm still to say I did
(30:23):
all that because that's howimportant you are to me.
Yes, yeah, whereas I think thatMay's kind of needs her to be
like you're nothing, bitch, andblah, blah, blah, blah, and then
she'd feel better.
But because Linda is just likelook, I did this for you and
you're making me really upsetand angry and like and it just I
(30:45):
just mays just cannot.
Mays just cannot cope withmaturely handling negative
emotions, so she keeps spiralingand spiraling and spiraling.
I think that that's actually Ilike that that that, actually
that full explanation andcontext.
I buy that.
Yeah, yeah, I buy that becauseand this is I mean this is a
(31:08):
hard season to watch of whatMays does yeah, for Mays fans,
yeah, yeah.
But I think it fits with thecharacter, and particularly once
, once I read the reviewer'sreview that was like, oh yeah,
that really does fit for whoMays is.
And then realizing how badly shescrewed up after Trixie runs
(31:31):
with crying Right and that'lljust cause more spiraling shame.
Yeah, yeah, and that's in someways it's going to be kind of
like I thought I hit rock bottom, but they're still lower and
that that's.
I can't watch that scene, likewhen, when Trixie, you see her
face and she runs away, god, itjust Like it's.
(31:55):
It's so hard because I putmyself in Trixie's position,
thinking about like as a kid andsome adult, you, I the grown up
that you idolize.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, allright.
Well, we have over a thingquite a bit, quite a bit.
Do you have some fluff that youwant to share?
Goodness, let's see the fluff.
(32:16):
When Ella is trying to cheer upPierce and she took the
compliment box around, everysingle everybody says he has
nice arms.
That's all we have to say aboutTom Welling.
Yeah, that is, you have nicearms.
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm worriedwe're not going to be able to
(32:38):
top last week, a week before us,yeah, right, right.
So my fluff is that I remainunconvinced that there is any
chemistry between Lauren Germanand Tom Welling.
But that's like they have.
They have Ella be the like.
Ella is the Greek chorus.
To be like they bone, she'stotally the Greek chorus.
(33:01):
Yeah, ella is totally the Greekcourse, because without that
character saying like, wow, it'slike flaming hot in there, yeah
, we wouldn't see it at allNothing.
So I just want to say, likekudos to our show runners who
recognize that there was aproblem and they solved it.
Solved it.
We got these two wooden actorswho are supposed to be like
(33:27):
trying to repress, being hot foreach other.
Yeah, let's bring Amy Gardner.
See, I am, and thank you foryour service, amy, I do love the
like.
Lucifer's response is like thedetective does not bone.
Like are you imagining she onlymakes sweet love?
(33:48):
I was actually waiting for herto say something like that.
She makes love.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, not with him,yeah.
There's more chemistry betweenthem.
I feel like Pearson, kay,agreed, yeah, and like what's
going?
I mean, why is that?
Because there's chemistrybetween Lucifer and Chloe,
(34:10):
definitely, definitely.
I don't know if it's well, or,you know, it could be the Joey
from Friends rule where, like,if two actors have chemistry on
stage that's because theyhaven't done it, but if they
don't have chemistry on stageit's because they're totally
doing it.
Oh so, maybe not that I want tolike cast dispersions on learn
(34:35):
German and Tom Welling, but no,I don't think that's it, that's
probably not it.
But I just, I was, Iappreciated that, well, and Joey
proved it by saying have I hadchemistry with any actress I've
been on stage with?
No See, there you go.
Oh.
So my last piece of fluff isactually quite dense, which is I
(34:58):
have a hard time believing thatCain is lugging rocks around
the world for thousands of years.
I mean the thing about likethere they stay the same and
they're reliable, like okay,that's, I guess.
I guess that's in keeping witha 5,000 year old man, but he
moves all the time.
He's not like packing up allthe time.
(35:20):
Well, I mean, maybe he justkeeps a collection of rocks,
like he's got storage in everycity.
I don't know Cause this can'tbe his entire collection either.
The other thing that, like I'mreally overthinking in here, but
they have one of the rocks waslike a, like a giant, like
Nautilus fossil, which thecreationist story and fossils,
(35:47):
and they're both, like they'reoften presented as binary.
Well, I mean they, well, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, I created.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Earth with the fossils in it.
Yeah, so they're God's Eastereggs.
Cain, has you crack it open?
There's chocolate inside andit's just on us that we've never
tried that.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, that that I like.
I was like, oh interesting,they put a fossil in his rock
collection and I also I honestlyfound it interesting that he
(36:16):
lived in a very well maintainedmid-century modern house which
would have been new in 1958.
Yeah, and I'm like, thousandsupon thousands of years, that's
really the, the style I meanlike, and also, you know, I know
, real estate is what it is solike, what's what's available
when you're.
He also said I want, I like itfor the view.
(36:37):
So, yeah, that's true, but it'sfurnished in mid-century modern
style as well, like that's.
The thing that got me is likeit's not the eclectic range of
all kinds of weird furnitureyou'd have if you'd live for
5000 years and lug rocks around.
I liked it.
I mean, I very much likemid-century modern aesthetic.
(36:57):
It's a gorgeous house andgorgeous set piece, but it was
just like thousands of years.
Also, does he speak?
Like?
Does he speak every language?
I mean, he must speak many,right?
I think we're not supposed tothink too much about the
languages in this show.
Like I think if you startthinking too much about the
(37:20):
language that they use, like itfalls apart.
Like there's no way that amen-a-deal would call him Lucy,
you know.
Like it would be Sammy.
Yeah, he was going to shortenhis name.
Yeah, you know, and I know hedoesn't go by that name anymore.
But still that's the name heknew him as, and he didn't
become Lucifer until after hefell Right, I just yeah, but
(37:44):
they all call him Lucifer thegoddess when she came back into
Charlotte's body.
Lucifer, I must find Lucifer no.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, she the point.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be a funTV show for 21st century
Americans if they were likespeaking person's shit or
Sumerian or whateverproto-Semitic language.
This wouldn't be fun.
Yeah, yeah, very true, verytrue.
All right, we have wayoverthought it.
Oh, my goodness, I really thinkthat we have over thunkin'
(38:16):
enough for one Lightbringersepisode, all right.
Well, I'm going to go find aNautilus shell and see if
there's chocolate inside.
Let me know how it works out.
I'll let you know how it worksout.
See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
All right, thanks for watching.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.