January 16, 2024 • 41 mins
“Orange is the New Maze” and the “Angel of San Bernadino” provide some interesting character development for Maze and some reminders that Lucifer is, in fact, the devil. Emily explores the ADHD-esque behavior of both Lucifer and Maze (hyper-fixation, missing social cues, etc) while Tracie appreciates Lauren German’s acting (for once). In true Guy Girl form, the sisters crack one another up talking about Pierce’s TERRIBLE pick-up lines and speculate on whether Chloe and Pierce are never-nudes.
On a more serious note, Tracie and Emily question the effect of having two immortal beings fall in love with Chloe Decker. Does that make her more special, or less special because she is quite simply a trophy and not a person? We also unpack the rare use of split screen and the tendency of Maze and Lucifer to literally and psychologically pummel one another. But lest you worry we’re too serious, you should know there’s also considerable time spent discussing the realistic response to having one’s sandwich rudely snatched.
Have a listen and overthink with us!
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey y'all.
I'm here with my sister, emilyGuy Birken, who does not use a
hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I don't, and I am here with my sister, tracy Guy
Decker, and she does use ahyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I do, and together we are lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And, yeah, we are overthinkingit.
And so for today's episode M,we are overthinking,
overthinking, not rethinking,overthinking.
Well, we may rethink also, butwe're overthinking.
(00:53):
319 and 320.
Orange is the new maze and theangel of San Bernardino.
You know, I'm realizing in thisrewatch with you that, because
I always because I binged it thefirst time I watched it and
then I just returned to like noteven whole episodes but like
the scenes that I love thatthere's a lot of nuance and
(01:18):
emotion that I missed because Ibinged it, so I just was like
what's going to happen next?
But now, watching with you, I'mwatching two a week and so I'm
able to really like sit in theemotion and these two episodes
are really thick with emotion.
They are, they are, yeah, yeah.
(01:40):
So in Orange is the new maze,it's really interesting that it
really pushes this whole idea ofmaze as a demon and is she
actually like possible on overthem.
Actually, both of theseepisodes in some ways like our
push, pull on maze and what kindof person this demon is and if
(02:02):
she is redeemable and if herrelationships are genuine and
like, just, it really is a pushpull on that character in both
of these two episodes.
So the first episode because sheis the prime suspect in this
murder that happens with withher blade, and then the way she
reacts to the other people, it's, it's really fascinating.
(02:23):
It's definitely, you know,sometimes we talk about like I
think we've said this beforelike there are scenes where I'm
like, yep, that totally makessense.
I could see myself on a writingteam writing that.
I'm not sure that I would havebeen.
I certainly wouldn't havegenerated sort of the story arc
and the ways in which mazereacts and interacts with the
(02:44):
other characters, realizing thatshe is the prime suspect.
I'm I believed it, like Ithought it was believable, but
it was outside of the ways thatI would have thought about it.
So that was really agitation ona good way for me.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Mm, hmm, what I find interesting about these two
episodes is that Lucifer isalmost unforgivably awful in
them, and the fact that I don'tremember these episodes is that
as being like that, I rememberthem as being like, wow, maze
really overreacted, rather thanit being like, no, lucifer was
(03:23):
awful and I.
So I had this realization thismorning that I, like, I texted
you, and it was in part becauseof these two episodes.
It hit me that Lucifer is kindof neurodivergent, and I mean
(03:44):
that he fixates on one thing ata time and like that's, like he
it's to the point of almostobsession and is incapable of
accepting more information thatcould add nuance.
And then, once he's done withwhatever fixation, he moves on
to the next thing, and that thatfeels very apropos for someone
(04:07):
who has ADHD.
And then the fact that he islike insensitive and like
ignoring social cues, inparticular with maze and then
also with Charlotte, in thesetwo episodes in oranges, the new
maze he is so focused on like,oh well, she's, she must be
manipulating me, because that'show this is, that's what happens
(04:28):
, that's what happens, that'swhat happens.
And so you know she's, she'smurdering people to manipulate
me.
And then, you know, Charlottecomes in and is just like I need
some answers.
He's just like All right, hereyou go, here, they all are,
without any regard for whatthat's going to do to her and
it's it's almost unforgivable.
(04:49):
And the way that he treats maze, like the immediate assumptions
all about him, and then at theend when he says to her like no,
I can't take you back, I can'tlose you, which for a second
it's like Okay, he isacknowledging her importance to
(05:09):
him and then immediately goesinto not you too, because he's
the center of the universe.
That struck me.
Other thing that struck me isalso is maze also seems a little
bit like that in some ways, inthat that last scene where she's
got not the murderer but thewoman behind it, the mother of
(05:33):
the of the bounty the formerbounty former bounty who has
died.
She's got her, and Chloe istrying to talk her down and
seems like she's getting throughto her and says to her like
Please talk to me, I'm here tohelp you.
And maze goes, help me.
Like your reasoning won't takeme back and like throws the
(05:53):
knife in the woman's foot, andthat is another one.
It's the fixation of like theonly help, the only help that I
want or need is to go home andso, like, instead of recognizing
like there are other avenues,that it's this fixation of like
this is the only thing that can,can be helpful to me.
This is the only thing thatanyone could ever do and know
(06:15):
you can't, possibly becauseyou're the reason he won't.
And so I just I found thatreally really interesting, that
that kind of realization and alittle bit validating in that I
recently diagnosed with ADHD andso you know, having this sudden
like, oh, yeah, okay, likethere's a reason why I kind of
(06:38):
identify with these characterssometimes.
And again, I'm very impressedwith the show and the writers
that they give these reallyinteresting and compelling
metaphors for mental healthstruggles.
Not that ADHD is exactly mentalhealth struggle, but, but you
know, ways of navigating theworld that are not necessarily
(07:01):
typical, and so, like I, just Ifound that really, really
interesting and gave me anotherway in to be able to forgive
these characters for doingthings that were kind of
unforgivable, although I'm stillpissed at Lucifer for these two
episodes.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, yeah, I see why there's in the in the second
one, the Angel San Bernardino.
When he goes on like the, Imean the implication has been
awake for a week.
Yeah, and he's an angel.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I will say that that montage is one of my favorite
montages of the entire series.
Like I like.
I've watched it over and overagain.
Just the montage, even thoughit's like the painful is not the
right word, but it's just likethis doesn't look fun at all.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, yeah, it is fun in a rewatch to see where the
bones of the show bones camefrom, to see the origination of
that, because that becomes athing like it, yeah, yeah, pops
up Like so, that was that was.
That was kind of fun.
What I was thinking of is thatthe once again praising Ellis's
(08:12):
performance, like when he's inthe precinct after having been
awake theoretically for a weekand he's just like, totally like
strung out and acting weird.
It was very believable and andactually in that moment I
understood it.
But I also was a little bitfrustrated with Chloe.
That she was so, I mean,clearly the man is not OK.
(08:34):
Yeah, like, in so many wayshe's not OK.
And that she got as frustratedas she did, as quickly as she
did Not, that she has never hada right to be frustrated.
She totally does.
And also, like, like I wantedher to be have I don't know,
maybe two beats longer ofcompassion before she like threw
(08:55):
her hands up because he wasclearly there's something
Agitated beyond, yeah, beyondhis typical weirdness, you know.
So, yeah, anyway, that that wasjust when you're talking about
sort of forgiving, unforgivable.
I don't think what Chloe didwas unforgivable, but no, it did
linger for me a little bit,yeah, yeah so within Orange is
(09:18):
the new maze.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
One of the things I appreciated was getting a chance
to see how maze works as abounty hunter and the fact that
she's actually very intelligent.
I mean she's, she's.
She's really quick tounderstand connections like the
going to find the bondsman andrealizing because he's got the
(09:41):
the bowling pins and bowling pinin the pot In the Mm hmm.
Yeah, that, oh, ok, so he andthat one's right across the
street, let's check there.
So, like I, really Iappreciated getting a chance to
see that, particularly since wehave not really seen her
competence at anything otherthan violence and the goddess
(10:05):
used to make fun of her as beingincompetent, yeah, and not
bright.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, we did in Mr and Mrs Mavikine Smith.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I think we saw some of her right and says about you
and as a tracker and et cetera.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
True.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That's true.
So I guess it's more it's.
It's fun to get back to that,yeah.
And then her response to him inOrange is the New Maze when he
says I can't lose you, not you,not you too.
And she was like I'm alwaysgoing to be your consolation
prize you.
I feel like you get a littlebit better understanding of why
(10:38):
she's spinning out so much.
Because she says nobody everputs me first, because even
Linda, who did put theirfriendship first, didn't do it
until after she hadn't.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, she put it second originally until it,
until Maze was hurt by it.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Even though Maze had said don't I really don't want
you to do this to your point ina previous episode like what
Linda and a Menadil had was realand deserved more than than
this, because it wasn't likethey were just having some fling
, it wasn't like this wasimmediately after she and a
(11:17):
Menadil broke up.
It's, you know, this was a trueemotional connection.
That could have been a reallyimportant relationship.
But at the same time, you knowthere is something to like.
Nobody's putting me first Forsure.
Yeah, definitely, and that'sthat's got to be like.
That's painful, that's reallypainful, that's I'm everyone's
(11:39):
consolation prize.
Why am I doing any of this?
And I can't even go home and,you know, lick my wounds where I
feel most comfortable.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Poor me, poor Maze yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
But then seeing Kane manipulate her at the very end,
that felt like, OK, I'm reallyseeing how capable he is at
manipulation, how some of thisis just the acting Tom willing's
(12:15):
acting and against learnGerman's acting doesn't.
It doesn't feel like it, Likewhen he calls he's just like
we'll have dinner and you're thedessert and or whatever it is
that he says.
I'm like thousands of years,that's the best line you come up
with.
Thousands.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, English is not his first language.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Thousands and so like .
As a writer, I don't I don'tenvy the writer's job of
creating dialogue.
That's going to feel like ohyeah, I'd fall for that, right,
right, because I don't know whatit would be, but that ain't it.
But he pinpoints and needlesMaze's weakness exactly, and I
(13:02):
think that that's that's easierto.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
He.
Also, though, the writers madesure that we see that this was a
manipulative.
The slower fast, whatever youwant.
I'm in like that kind offlexibility as understanding,
like writers make sure we knowthat that was calculated, not
genuine, by having Maze say thesame words, knowing that they're
(13:26):
working together.
So you know, yeah, the thepickup lines need help, but the
other bits, I think actuallywere quite well crafted.
Yeah, yeah, though the actuallike they knew mom less so, like
when finally she's going to sayshe loves him.
And again, I don't know if thisis the writing or wellings
(13:48):
acting, but I'm not putting thison Lauren German this time,
because when she was like hey,did I say something wrong?
I just said that is exactly,really real.
The way that a person of eithergender, of any gender, excuse
me, would react to that, like Iwas just about to tell you that
I love you and now you'rerunning away, like, of course,
she would think that it wasbecause she did something wrong,
like wrong, that I thought,actually, germans kind of halted
(14:17):
, staccato, kind of delivery,like really, really worked,
wellings less so, like I didn'tbuy the angst or the change of
heart or the I can't hurt her,like I just didn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'll say the, the, the moment when he's on the
stairs and they, they, they haveno sound, right?
I think it's just music.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
But we see him like yelling and yeah, and a helmet,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that I felt that felt realistic, maybe
because he didn't have to sayanything.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, I, I bought that.
I think it's that I didn't buyand maybe and maybe this is me
projecting what I know of what'sto come backward, because when
Lucifer confronts him, he saysdo what you must, I deserve it.
So the implication of thewritings that we're supposed to
believe that Kane, marcus Pierce, is having real feelings for
(15:14):
Chloe and can't stand that whathe's doing is going to hurt her
and that's why he's having thiscrisis, for whatever reason, I
just don't buy it.
Yeah, I buy that Kane wouldhave the crisis, because this is
what I've been searching forand now I don't wanna die, which
I think is where we end up.
(15:35):
And maybe I'm projecting thatbecause I know that's where
we're gonna end up.
Sorry y'all spoilers, but Idon't know.
In this rewatch I just I wantedto believe it.
I wanted to believe the like dowhat you must because I deserve
it, but I just didn't.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Some of it is.
It puts too much pressure onChloe as a person to be like to
have multiple celestial fall inlove with her, Like that
flattens her as a character,Like she's no longer a unique
person, she's just an objectthat like she's the.
Macguffin.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, cause part of what was so special about her
relationship with Lucifer islike she was special to him.
So to say that she's justspecial in the abstract and
anyone would fall in love withher if they spent enough time
with her.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah and so like, and I think it's not necessarily.
That's not what the writers aretrying to go for.
They're I think they're morethey're going for.
He has let his boundaries downenough that he can see that this
is a human being and recognize.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And he has.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Not that he has feelings for her, that he cares
about her in a romantic sense,but just that he sees like I'm a
human.
She's a human, even though itfeels like I'm the only one in
the video game.
She's not a non-playercharacter.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
She's not a non-player character.
Yes, yes, and I think that thewriting actually suggests that
they're like.
I couldn't do that to her.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah not that I could , not that I could, but again,
it's not that it's because I'min love with her.
It's because she's the onlyother real human being on the
earth.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Like yeah, that's a nuance that I'm not sure Tom
Welling conveyed.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I'll give you that.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that wild turkey yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, and it's frustrating because I feel like
we do get like we do get thereal pathos when the Toms are
acting off of each other and weget it between Pierce and Mays
and not the pathos, but we getlike he feels like a fully
developed evil character whenhe's manipulating Mays.
(18:02):
It's just that we're pushing onthis love triangle.
That just doesn't work and Idon't know if it would work if
we had someone of Tom Ellis'caliber.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
In that role.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
In that role, that's an interesting hypothetical yeah
.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think so we could have Tom Ellis play every
character.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's some major editing, but that would be
pretty cool.
So I'm thinking about the scene, though, when I don't remember
how Lucifer realizes what'shappening, but he's like rushing
, like he's driving to interceptand they do the split screen
with Ellis in the convertibleand then the two of them right
(18:48):
Like driving or whatever.
It was interesting that theyjuxtaposed that in that way,
because in those two juxtaposedscenes Lucifer just looks well
to your point about the ADHDlike absolutely obsessed and
driven and a little bit like offhis rocker.
Yeah, a little scary almost.
(19:09):
A little bit yeah, and Wellingis as charming as he's able to
be, I think in the same scene,and so there's an interesting
sort of juxtaposition with this,like wildness out of Lucifer,
which is actually driven bygenuine affection and concern,
(19:29):
and this charm literallyjuxtaposed, which is driven by
self-serving.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and really like complete disregard in some ways
for Chloe.
So I thought that was a reallylike just as a viewer kind of
taking it in.
I thought that which they don'tdo that very often.
Like that is not a cinematicstyle of this show I don't know
if it was a different directoror what but sort of that split
screen effect.
(19:56):
We don't get that very often inLucifer, so it stood out to me
that we had it here.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
In terms of the performance, I want to point out
Leslie Anne Brandt'sperformance when she reveals
things to Lucifer is likegenuinely chilling Totally.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It was my idea.
Yeah, like in his space, likethat, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And that's it again, where it feels like this is
almost something you can't comeback from.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
you know this level of manipulation, though to your
point from our last episode thatyou gleaned from the AV Club
review of the previous episode.
It's like Lucifer and May'spummel one another.
Yes, they do it literally,physically, and they do it
emotionally, and have been fromthe point.
(20:57):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah so.
I mean just in terms of thelike not coming back from it.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah.
Well, and there comes a point Ithink it's in later seasons
where May says to him likeyou're not still mad about that
time I betrayed you?
And he's like what, am I ahuman?
No, of course not.
Yeah, so yeah, it's more thatChloe is wrapped up in the net.
That's kind of awful.
(21:24):
Yeah, may's is angry at Chloetoo and actually says to Pierce
like you know, respect, that'sreally gonna hurt her.
Wow, and that just feels sounfair because Chloe hasn't done
anything wrong, mm-mm.
But May's is.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
She's wrapped up in her own pain.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, these are fun episodes that are also hard to
watch, in a way.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean even the like.
So we already said I totallybelieve the wait.
Wait, did I say something wrong?
And then the next scene thatyou see her when Lucifer knocks
on the door like a crazy person.
I gotta stop saying that, Iapologize.
Lucifer knocks on the door in avery insistent and in a way
that is not socially acceptableand Trixie opens the door and
(22:08):
just opens it wide so he can seeher.
The pathos of having the10-year-old like taking care of
her mom, in that way I mean, andlike German's, just sort of
sitting there looking, I don'tknow, morose, but the real
pathos I mean kudos to thewriters on that by having the
(22:29):
child just be like look.
You know that actually, I foundvery powerful that was very
powerful.
And another moment of like.
Screw Lucifer for like, come on, like his impulse is not to go
comfort her but to go confrontPierce, which feels a little
effed up.
Yeah, like she was clearlyhurting so much he didn't even
(22:54):
like, he didn't even greet her.
Yeah, he just turned around togo confront Pierce, which is in
line with I'm the Punisher, butis not in line with the
redemption arc that we've beengiven for him, which is genuine
affection and care for thishuman being who's hurting.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But that also gets to his single-mindedness.
Yeah, yes, because he was goingthere to stop Pierce from
hurting her.
Right, pierce had already hurther, and so he was, so I got to
know, and he was in that sort ofsleep, deprived wildness, wild
(23:37):
state yeah.
And that's.
It's a shame, because you knowlike tricks he could have used
an adult, because I can't howupsetting, like the last time
she and her mother had spokenshe's like oh, is he why you've
been so happy lately?
And then she comes home from abirthday party and her mom is
(23:58):
like I'm sure had dried hertears by then.
Right, you know, because shewas like I gotta be Because
that's the kind of gal, she isAn adult but, you know, was not
capable of answering the door,you know, yeah.
So, yeah, it's painful.
I do want to say how did Marcusexplain the loss of his tattoo
(24:22):
to Chloe?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
She must not.
I mean, I guess he wore longer,I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Are they never nudes when they have sex?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh right, Because they clearly are doing it.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, and like the only times we see anything about
it, there's like some afterglowwhere they're both fully
dressed and they're at work, somaybe they're just you know like
yeah, maybe they are fullyclothed when they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Just get the relevant bits uncovered, I mean when
you're doing it, in the evidencelocker.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
That I understand, but then they're, you know, like
they're, like you know he'slike oh, this is really great.
And she's like this is this iscrap.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Crap, they're both fully dressed.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah.
So I mean maybe because they'relike-.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, maybe he just said.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I had it lasered off.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, I know it's not it's nota big deal.
I mean she's managed to likegloss over the fact that she's
partners with the devil for twoyears.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
So that is more like okay, he's delusional.
This is something that he'sdelusional.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yes, but his super human strength she has seen on
multiple occasions, true Fromthe very beginning.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
It's like the whether or not a tattoo is there is a
little more like-.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Really, then, like bending a shotgun, really Like
laser tattoo or whatever.
Well, there's a thing, okay,true, like I mean I know, and
she's seen him naked.
It's not like he's, you know,like the rock or something.
At least not in these seasons.
He's not doing the rock jobs in.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
True, true, okay, I will give you that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So, speaking of super human strength, we've talked
before about how that seems alittle inconsistent, like
Winklow is around, so here wasanother one in the yes, he still
has it column, and I thoughtthat was actually really funny,
like that was a cute line whenhe was like I've always wanted
to do that, oh, done that before.
That was pretty funny.
There were a couple of, thoughthere was one inconsistency that
(26:26):
I noted, which I guess I couldkeep for fluff but now I've
started so I'm just going to doit which is that they either
didn't remember or didn't carethat Lucifer names Gabriel's
pronouns as he, him.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I noticed that, but when we meet Gabriel.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Gabriel's his sister Very much a woman.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yes, yeah, that bothered me too, which you know
like it's.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It's like they maybe were like whatever.
It was 30 seconds, it's fine,just keep going.
Yeah, yeah, but I noticed that.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I did too.
Yeah, so I do want to take amoment to talk about Charlotte.
Well, for one thing, the scenewhere Lucifer reveals his wings
to her is that's redemptive onLucifer's part with how horribly
he treated her before and wherehe's like OK, we'll make this
(27:21):
right in the only way possible.
And then props to Tricia Hulferfor like nailing her facial
expression of like the awe ofwhat she's seeing and the joy of
being like.
My greatest fear is not trueand you know, that's
(27:43):
conversation for another time,if we ever have it of why her
greatest fear is that she'scrazy.
Like what is that saying?
What does that mean?
Why is that such a terrifyingthing for?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
her.
I have to say it totally makessense with the profile of the
character that they this likehard driving, very successful,
very smart, in control.
I mean like being in control iswho she is.
Charlotte, is CharlotteRichards' comfortable place,
Like that is her comfort zone,and so a mental health issue
(28:18):
that would steal time and haveher not in control.
I mean, to me it's very clearlythe lack of control.
The stigma around mental health, sure, but specifically with
this character profile it's thelack of control that is so
terrifying.
I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, no, that definitely.
That definitely makes sense.
Sorry, I totally interruptedyou.
You were saying no, no, no, no,I like, I just I so appreciate
the way that that she playedthat Like you believed she was
actually looking at like yeahWings, and it wasn't just CGI.
I do want to point out when shehas that jeweler in her office
(29:00):
I don't know if you noticed, butit's the same jeweler that they
went and interviewed in the myBrother's Keeper, oh, really.
Yeah, yeah.
So I was like nice.
I mean like I wonder if it'sjust they had, you know, that
actor on speed dial or you knowthat's pretty cool.
But it was, it was pretty nice,it was, it was pretty cool that
(29:20):
they did not notice that.
So but that that.
The other aspect that's alsoreally interesting is her
despair at the like.
The minute I thought that therewas a loophole, I went back to
my old ways and that's justhuman, that's just being human
and you know it's.
It's completely comprehensiblewhy she, she, she did that.
(29:42):
I mean, it would have been verydifficult for her to try to be
a different person and herattempts were based in fear.
Mm hmm, not.
In general.
It was not an intrinsicmotivation, right, which is not
going to create a real change,right?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Although that her telling the truth Everyone was
amazing and you actually, you'repretty great, you're pretty
great.
Actually, stop talking aboutyour kids.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Ella was the Greek course, again Totally with the,
although maybe I should savethis for fluff.
But when she's she's like getit Decker, because the wall is
shared with the lab, I'm like,how did you know that was Decker
and anyway.
And then like when she's justlike how are you doing?
Player, and like Lucifer is sobefuddled he's like looking back
(30:42):
and forth and like I knowsomething's going on, but what
she's suggesting is somethingthe detective would never do, so
I don't know what's going on.
I also when Chloe's realizingher double on time, lucifer,
when she, he was here, is goingto be, you know, on every case
now.
And she's like we just came to,we just drove together.
(31:05):
Yeah, now you've got DNA onyour shirt.
What I did, what?
Oh, that's pretty funny, thatwas pretty good, yeah, so, oh,
anyway, I do want to get back toCharlotte, but the, the, the
conversation with the Menendale,where he's like you know,
logistically that ain'thappening, not even like, even
(31:25):
if we could, we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And the, the pathos of her real life, like I am
going to hell yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And there are no shortcuts, and that's really
overwhelming and that, I feellike, is what Linda was trying
to protect her from.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Because the like, getting the validation that's
her missing time.
It's missing for a very goodreason.
Missing for a good reason andthat there's nothing, she's not
losing control of her ownfaculties was one aspect of her.
I can't think of the word Iwant, but I'm upset of her
(32:09):
struggles.
That was only one aspect.
Another aspect is therealization that she's got to
change as a person and notknowing how to, and that's
understandable and relatable andreally tough yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
So Well, I feel like maybe we both already gave our
fluff, things.
Oh no, no, no, oh, I have somegood ones I have saved one.
I think it is time, and now isthe time in Lightbringers, when
we share fluff.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
For my Gen Xers out there.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
That's for my Gen Xers out there.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
On sprockets, On sprockets.
Ok, so I was.
I was watching these in myoffice and my spouse wandered in
, and it was during.
Orange is the New Maze whenLucifer and Chloe are leaving
the conference room not theconference room, the
interrogation room and he startsgrabbing things.
(33:07):
You're like.
OK, we got to find the rightthing, and so he grabs a stapler
and he grabs a hoagie out ofthe hands of a like nameless
uniformed cop and my spouse, whohas made it clear he does not
like Lucifer, which it's good ofyou that you haven't divorced
him yet.
I know he needs to know.
(33:28):
So the point where he was, hewas saying this and I was just
like I don't talk about you orsay your name or anything like
that, but I'm going to out youand he said you wouldn't, so
anyway.
So Lucifer grabs the sandwichand my spouse goes.
That isn't realistic and Ithought he was going to be on
(33:49):
something.
He's just like that cop wouldnot be OK with him just taking
his sandwich.
He just turns and walks away.
He's armed, he's an armedpolice officer, and then what
does he do with the sandwich?
It disappears in between that.
And when he's talking toCharlotte, what happened to the
sandwich?
He's like you need to tell themthat your spouse, who is a fan
(34:17):
of sandwiches, has a problemwith that plot point.
It is a plot hole.
That does go like yeah, butthen he just wanders away and
like to be fair to my spouse,most people would be like hey,
give me that I was eating that.
(34:39):
Yes, oh, that's funny, but yeah, so.
So that was, that was one pieceof fluff.
And then the other was I justan appreciation fluff for
Lucifer's French made costume?
Oh, my gosh.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
(35:01):
You know when you're trying tostand up you have a light the
bad word in rough.
The French made costume Likeand so in my head I was just
like.
So you know, on the nights whenyou're feeling sleepy but you
got to stay up, you go get yourFrench made costume and tricycle
.
Like you do Clean, you cleanthe counters and so, like the
(35:27):
cleaning, I kind of understandthe putting together the IKEA
bookshelf.
I do not understand, becausethose don't go together well
when you're well caffeinated andfully rested.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Speak to yourself.
I can put an IKEA cabinettogether at three in the morning
.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I mean, I don't know, but I can do it when I'm awake
and fully caffeinated.
I cannot do it when I'm waking,fully caffeinated.
I just, I have a lowfrustration tolerance, and so
you know anything that raisesthe frustration tolerance which
is already like damn you, IKEAand your flat pack, I mean.
(36:04):
Then then like, of course, youalso invite the underground
fight club into your penthouseUnderground, engage in some
light SNM, or you get a largescreen TV and mainline bones.
That's the only one that Icould actually see myself doing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It was interesting that he didn't have a TV until
he had to stay out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Oh, oh, one other.
I remember the other fluff Iwanted to mention.
It's the one that I texted you.
We have a large number of blackJews in Lucifer's, los Angeles,
because the guy the rehabcenter's name was Phil Goldstein
, and we come to find him andhe's a black dude with the last
(36:56):
name Goldstein, and I don't.
Goldberg Greenberg, I think wasthe name of, was Goldberg,
wasn't it?
Yeah, it was Ryan GoldbergGreenberg who was the agent,
definitely like a Meshpacha name.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, so yeah, and I wonder I wonder if that's like
the writers are like putting inthese Jewish names and then want
to avoid antisemitism.
So cast black dudes, yeah.
Instead of Jewish white, jewishlooking dudes, I should specify
Ashkenazi looking I don't knowLike.
(37:31):
I wonder if there's a littlebit of like hedging their bets
there.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, well, and it's, it's something where I
don't know how many non Jewswould clock these names as, like
that, that's, that's a Jewishname, right, right, I think,
because it's sadly theantisemites will true true.
I just remember there was anold Northern Exposure episode
(37:56):
where Joel was trying to tell Icannot remember her name but his
the, the pilot.
No, no, no, no, the, the nativewoman who was like his, not
second.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Marilyn, marilyn.
He was trying to tell her howyou know that a name, the last
name, is Jewish, and he's likewell, if it ends in Berg, or if
it ends in, you know, no, orStein, or yeah, and so, so
easily if it ends in Nura, andshe's like, oh, it's like Kevin
Costner is like no, a fat Nura,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So that's sort of like precious metal plus like
Steen Stein Berg, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I just I found that really interesting.
And then I was also like well,it's sad that there's a, you
know, a larger number of blackJews in the the Los Angeles of
Lucifer, although you know thereis a large number of Jewish
people in Los Angeles.
So you, know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, I mean it would make sense because there's a I
mean Jews of color somewherebetween 12 and 20% of the Jewish
population.
So many.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I did not know that that is fascinating, so but I
hate that both of the times thatI have clocked it they've been
kind of pieces of shit.
Yeah, yeah, like can we get ahero?
Yeah, is it Jew of color?
That would be nice.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
So I mean Phil was less, he like Ryan was like
actually the murderer.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, he was a villain, yeah, he was a.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
He was the villain.
Yeah, this guy was just kind oflike kind of just kind of a
schmuck, yeah, not like evil.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
No, no, no, no, not like not a villain, but still
kind of, kind of a schmuck, likeI don't want my wife to know.
This gets my wife off my back,for you know, sleeping with
prostitutes, and it's just likeyeah, brody.
So anyway, phil Goldstein, toeach wife better, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
She's a rich book.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Those are my fluffs and I've got.
I got a call in like sixminutes that I should get to.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Well, we better go, then we better go, because we
have over thunk it, I'll see younext week.
We have over thunk it.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
We have, go us go, yes, and and you know what, go
my spouse, who, again, I'm notgoing to name because I don't
want to out him and not out him,but you know, just like it
would be hard to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
But yes, that's that good point about the sandwich.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yes, but he made an excellent point about the
sandwich way to go, brother inlaw.
He made me laugh because Ithought he was going to be like
that doesn't make sense.
I'm solving devil, which youknow.
I know he's already knows that.
But I thought he was going tolike go for the jugular with
something that he felt wasunrealistic, but and he did.
But you know, the jugular of ahoagie.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
All right, I'll see you next week.
You next week.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Our theme song is Ferrell Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,Licensed under Creative Commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(41:14):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey y'all.
I'm here with my sister, emilyGuy Birken, who does not use a
hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I don't, and I am here with my sister, tracy Guy
Decker, and she does use ahyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I do, and together we are lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And, yeah, we are overthinkingit.
And so for today's episode M,we are overthinking,
overthinking, not rethinking,overthinking.
Well, we may rethink also, butwe're overthinking.
(00:53):
319 and 320.
Orange is the new maze and theangel of San Bernardino.
You know, I'm realizing in thisrewatch with you that, because
I always because I binged it thefirst time I watched it and
then I just returned to like noteven whole episodes but like
the scenes that I love thatthere's a lot of nuance and
(01:18):
emotion that I missed because Ibinged it, so I just was like
what's going to happen next?
But now, watching with you, I'mwatching two a week and so I'm
able to really like sit in theemotion and these two episodes
are really thick with emotion.
They are, they are, yeah, yeah.
(01:40):
So in Orange is the new maze,it's really interesting that it
really pushes this whole idea ofmaze as a demon and is she
actually like possible on overthem.
Actually, both of theseepisodes in some ways like our
push, pull on maze and what kindof person this demon is and if
(02:02):
she is redeemable and if herrelationships are genuine and
like, just, it really is a pushpull on that character in both
of these two episodes.
So the first episode because sheis the prime suspect in this
murder that happens with withher blade, and then the way she
reacts to the other people, it's, it's really fascinating.
(02:23):
It's definitely, you know,sometimes we talk about like I
think we've said this beforelike there are scenes where I'm
like, yep, that totally makessense.
I could see myself on a writingteam writing that.
I'm not sure that I would havebeen.
I certainly wouldn't havegenerated sort of the story arc
and the ways in which mazereacts and interacts with the
(02:44):
other characters, realizing thatshe is the prime suspect.
I'm I believed it, like Ithought it was believable, but
it was outside of the ways thatI would have thought about it.
So that was really agitation ona good way for me.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Mm, hmm, what I find interesting about these two
episodes is that Lucifer isalmost unforgivably awful in
them, and the fact that I don'tremember these episodes is that
as being like that, I rememberthem as being like, wow, maze
really overreacted, rather thanit being like, no, lucifer was
(03:23):
awful and I.
So I had this realization thismorning that I, like, I texted
you, and it was in part becauseof these two episodes.
It hit me that Lucifer is kindof neurodivergent, and I mean
(03:44):
that he fixates on one thing ata time and like that's, like he
it's to the point of almostobsession and is incapable of
accepting more information thatcould add nuance.
And then, once he's done withwhatever fixation, he moves on
to the next thing, and that thatfeels very apropos for someone
(04:07):
who has ADHD.
And then the fact that he islike insensitive and like
ignoring social cues, inparticular with maze and then
also with Charlotte, in thesetwo episodes in oranges, the new
maze he is so focused on like,oh well, she's, she must be
manipulating me, because that'show this is, that's what happens
(04:28):
, that's what happens, that'swhat happens.
And so you know she's, she'smurdering people to manipulate
me.
And then, you know, Charlottecomes in and is just like I need
some answers.
He's just like All right, hereyou go, here, they all are,
without any regard for whatthat's going to do to her and
it's it's almost unforgivable.
(04:49):
And the way that he treats maze, like the immediate assumptions
all about him, and then at theend when he says to her like no,
I can't take you back, I can'tlose you, which for a second
it's like Okay, he isacknowledging her importance to
(05:09):
him and then immediately goesinto not you too, because he's
the center of the universe.
That struck me.
Other thing that struck me isalso is maze also seems a little
bit like that in some ways, inthat that last scene where she's
got not the murderer but thewoman behind it, the mother of
(05:33):
the of the bounty the formerbounty former bounty who has
died.
She's got her, and Chloe istrying to talk her down and
seems like she's getting throughto her and says to her like
Please talk to me, I'm here tohelp you.
And maze goes, help me.
Like your reasoning won't takeme back and like throws the
(05:53):
knife in the woman's foot, andthat is another one.
It's the fixation of like theonly help, the only help that I
want or need is to go home andso, like, instead of recognizing
like there are other avenues,that it's this fixation of like
this is the only thing that can,can be helpful to me.
This is the only thing thatanyone could ever do and know
(06:15):
you can't, possibly becauseyou're the reason he won't.
And so I just I found thatreally really interesting, that
that kind of realization and alittle bit validating in that I
recently diagnosed with ADHD andso you know, having this sudden
like, oh, yeah, okay, likethere's a reason why I kind of
(06:38):
identify with these characterssometimes.
And again, I'm very impressedwith the show and the writers
that they give these reallyinteresting and compelling
metaphors for mental healthstruggles.
Not that ADHD is exactly mentalhealth struggle, but, but you
know, ways of navigating theworld that are not necessarily
(07:01):
typical, and so, like I, just Ifound that really, really
interesting and gave me anotherway in to be able to forgive
these characters for doingthings that were kind of
unforgivable, although I'm stillpissed at Lucifer for these two
episodes.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, yeah, I see why there's in the in the second
one, the Angel San Bernardino.
When he goes on like the, Imean the implication has been
awake for a week.
Yeah, and he's an angel.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
I will say that that montage is one of my favorite
montages of the entire series.
Like I like.
I've watched it over and overagain.
Just the montage, even thoughit's like the painful is not the
right word, but it's just likethis doesn't look fun at all.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, yeah, it is fun in a rewatch to see where the
bones of the show bones camefrom, to see the origination of
that, because that becomes athing like it, yeah, yeah, pops
up Like so, that was that was.
That was kind of fun.
What I was thinking of is thatthe once again praising Ellis's
(08:12):
performance, like when he's inthe precinct after having been
awake theoretically for a weekand he's just like, totally like
strung out and acting weird.
It was very believable and andactually in that moment I
understood it.
But I also was a little bitfrustrated with Chloe.
That she was so, I mean,clearly the man is not OK.
(08:34):
Yeah, like, in so many wayshe's not OK.
And that she got as frustratedas she did, as quickly as she
did Not, that she has never hada right to be frustrated.
She totally does.
And also, like, like I wantedher to be have I don't know,
maybe two beats longer ofcompassion before she like threw
(08:55):
her hands up because he wasclearly there's something
Agitated beyond, yeah, beyondhis typical weirdness, you know.
So, yeah, anyway, that that wasjust when you're talking about
sort of forgiving, unforgivable.
I don't think what Chloe didwas unforgivable, but no, it did
linger for me a little bit,yeah, yeah so within Orange is
(09:18):
the new maze.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
One of the things I appreciated was getting a chance
to see how maze works as abounty hunter and the fact that
she's actually very intelligent.
I mean she's, she's.
She's really quick tounderstand connections like the
going to find the bondsman andrealizing because he's got the
(09:41):
the bowling pins and bowling pinin the pot In the Mm hmm.
Yeah, that, oh, ok, so he andthat one's right across the
street, let's check there.
So, like I, really Iappreciated getting a chance to
see that, particularly since wehave not really seen her
competence at anything otherthan violence and the goddess
(10:05):
used to make fun of her as beingincompetent, yeah, and not
bright.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, we did in Mr and Mrs Mavikine Smith.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I think we saw some of her right and says about you
and as a tracker and et cetera.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
True.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That's true.
So I guess it's more it's.
It's fun to get back to that,yeah.
And then her response to him inOrange is the New Maze when he
says I can't lose you, not you,not you too.
And she was like I'm alwaysgoing to be your consolation
prize you.
I feel like you get a littlebit better understanding of why
(10:38):
she's spinning out so much.
Because she says nobody everputs me first, because even
Linda, who did put theirfriendship first, didn't do it
until after she hadn't.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, she put it second originally until it,
until Maze was hurt by it.
Yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Even though Maze had said don't I really don't want
you to do this to your point ina previous episode like what
Linda and a Menadil had was realand deserved more than than
this, because it wasn't likethey were just having some fling
, it wasn't like this wasimmediately after she and a
(11:17):
Menadil broke up.
It's, you know, this was a trueemotional connection.
That could have been a reallyimportant relationship.
But at the same time, you knowthere is something to like.
Nobody's putting me first Forsure.
Yeah, definitely, and that'sthat's got to be like.
That's painful, that's reallypainful, that's I'm everyone's
(11:39):
consolation prize.
Why am I doing any of this?
And I can't even go home and,you know, lick my wounds where I
feel most comfortable.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Right, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Poor me, poor Maze yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
But then seeing Kane manipulate her at the very end,
that felt like, OK, I'm reallyseeing how capable he is at
manipulation, how some of thisis just the acting Tom willing's
(12:15):
acting and against learnGerman's acting doesn't.
It doesn't feel like it, Likewhen he calls he's just like
we'll have dinner and you're thedessert and or whatever it is
that he says.
I'm like thousands of years,that's the best line you come up
with.
Thousands.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Well, English is not his first language.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Thousands and so like .
As a writer, I don't I don'tenvy the writer's job of
creating dialogue.
That's going to feel like ohyeah, I'd fall for that, right,
right, because I don't know whatit would be, but that ain't it.
But he pinpoints and needlesMaze's weakness exactly, and I
(13:02):
think that that's that's easierto.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
He.
Also, though, the writers madesure that we see that this was a
manipulative.
The slower fast, whatever youwant.
I'm in like that kind offlexibility as understanding,
like writers make sure we knowthat that was calculated, not
genuine, by having Maze say thesame words, knowing that they're
(13:26):
working together.
So you know, yeah, the thepickup lines need help, but the
other bits, I think actuallywere quite well crafted.
Yeah, yeah, though the actuallike they knew mom less so, like
when finally she's going to sayshe loves him.
And again, I don't know if thisis the writing or wellings
(13:48):
acting, but I'm not putting thison Lauren German this time,
because when she was like hey,did I say something wrong?
I just said that is exactly,really real.
The way that a person of eithergender, of any gender, excuse
me, would react to that, like Iwas just about to tell you that
I love you and now you'rerunning away, like, of course,
she would think that it wasbecause she did something wrong,
like wrong, that I thought,actually, germans kind of halted
(14:17):
, staccato, kind of delivery,like really, really worked,
wellings less so, like I didn'tbuy the angst or the change of
heart or the I can't hurt her,like I just didn't.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'll say the, the, the moment when he's on the
stairs and they, they, they haveno sound, right?
I think it's just music.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
But we see him like yelling and yeah, and a helmet,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah, that I felt that felt realistic, maybe
because he didn't have to sayanything.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, I, I bought that.
I think it's that I didn't buyand maybe and maybe this is me
projecting what I know of what'sto come backward, because when
Lucifer confronts him, he saysdo what you must, I deserve it.
So the implication of thewritings that we're supposed to
believe that Kane, marcus Pierce, is having real feelings for
(15:14):
Chloe and can't stand that whathe's doing is going to hurt her
and that's why he's having thiscrisis, for whatever reason, I
just don't buy it.
Yeah, I buy that Kane wouldhave the crisis, because this is
what I've been searching forand now I don't wanna die, which
I think is where we end up.
(15:35):
And maybe I'm projecting thatbecause I know that's where
we're gonna end up.
Sorry y'all spoilers, but Idon't know.
In this rewatch I just I wantedto believe it.
I wanted to believe the like dowhat you must because I deserve
it, but I just didn't.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Some of it is.
It puts too much pressure onChloe as a person to be like to
have multiple celestial fall inlove with her, Like that
flattens her as a character,Like she's no longer a unique
person, she's just an objectthat like she's the.
Macguffin.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Yeah, cause part of what was so special about her
relationship with Lucifer islike she was special to him.
So to say that she's justspecial in the abstract and
anyone would fall in love withher if they spent enough time
with her.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah and so like, and I think it's not necessarily.
That's not what the writers aretrying to go for.
They're I think they're morethey're going for.
He has let his boundaries downenough that he can see that this
is a human being and recognize.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
And he has.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Not that he has feelings for her, that he cares
about her in a romantic sense,but just that he sees like I'm a
human.
She's a human, even though itfeels like I'm the only one in
the video game.
She's not a non-playercharacter.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
She's not a non-player character.
Yes, yes, and I think that thewriting actually suggests that
they're like.
I couldn't do that to her.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Yeah not that I could , not that I could, but again,
it's not that it's because I'min love with her.
It's because she's the onlyother real human being on the
earth.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Like yeah, that's a nuance that I'm not sure Tom
Welling conveyed.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I'll give you that.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that wild turkey yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Well, and it's frustrating because I feel like
we do get like we do get thereal pathos when the Toms are
acting off of each other and weget it between Pierce and Mays
and not the pathos, but we getlike he feels like a fully
developed evil character whenhe's manipulating Mays.
(18:02):
It's just that we're pushing onthis love triangle.
That just doesn't work and Idon't know if it would work if
we had someone of Tom Ellis'caliber.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
In that role.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
In that role, that's an interesting hypothetical yeah
.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
I think so we could have Tom Ellis play every
character.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's some major editing, but that would be
pretty cool.
So I'm thinking about the scene, though, when I don't remember
how Lucifer realizes what'shappening, but he's like rushing
, like he's driving to interceptand they do the split screen
with Ellis in the convertibleand then the two of them right
(18:48):
Like driving or whatever.
It was interesting that theyjuxtaposed that in that way,
because in those two juxtaposedscenes Lucifer just looks well
to your point about the ADHDlike absolutely obsessed and
driven and a little bit like offhis rocker.
Yeah, a little scary almost.
(19:09):
A little bit yeah, and Wellingis as charming as he's able to
be, I think in the same scene,and so there's an interesting
sort of juxtaposition with this,like wildness out of Lucifer,
which is actually driven bygenuine affection and concern,
(19:29):
and this charm literallyjuxtaposed, which is driven by
self-serving.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and really like complete disregard in some ways
for Chloe.
So I thought that was a reallylike just as a viewer kind of
taking it in.
I thought that which they don'tdo that very often.
Like that is not a cinematicstyle of this show I don't know
if it was a different directoror what but sort of that split
screen effect.
(19:56):
We don't get that very often inLucifer, so it stood out to me
that we had it here.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
In terms of the performance, I want to point out
Leslie Anne Brandt'sperformance when she reveals
things to Lucifer is likegenuinely chilling Totally.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
It was my idea.
Yeah, like in his space, likethat, mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
And that's it again, where it feels like this is
almost something you can't comeback from.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
you know this level of manipulation, though to your
point from our last episode thatyou gleaned from the AV Club
review of the previous episode.
It's like Lucifer and May'spummel one another.
Yes, they do it literally,physically, and they do it
emotionally, and have been fromthe point.
(20:57):
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah so.
I mean just in terms of thelike not coming back from it.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah.
Well, and there comes a point Ithink it's in later seasons
where May says to him likeyou're not still mad about that
time I betrayed you?
And he's like what, am I ahuman?
No, of course not.
Yeah, so yeah, it's more thatChloe is wrapped up in the net.
That's kind of awful.
(21:24):
Yeah, may's is angry at Chloetoo and actually says to Pierce
like you know, respect, that'sreally gonna hurt her.
Wow, and that just feels sounfair because Chloe hasn't done
anything wrong, mm-mm.
But May's is.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
She's wrapped up in her own pain.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Yeah, these are fun episodes that are also hard to
watch, in a way.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean even the like.
So we already said I totallybelieve the wait.
Wait, did I say something wrong?
And then the next scene thatyou see her when Lucifer knocks
on the door like a crazy person.
I gotta stop saying that, Iapologize.
Lucifer knocks on the door in avery insistent and in a way
that is not socially acceptableand Trixie opens the door and
(22:08):
just opens it wide so he can seeher.
The pathos of having the10-year-old like taking care of
her mom, in that way I mean, andlike German's, just sort of
sitting there looking, I don'tknow, morose, but the real
pathos I mean kudos to thewriters on that by having the
(22:29):
child just be like look.
You know that actually, I foundvery powerful that was very
powerful.
And another moment of like.
Screw Lucifer for like, come on, like his impulse is not to go
comfort her but to go confrontPierce, which feels a little
effed up.
Yeah, like she was clearlyhurting so much he didn't even
(22:54):
like, he didn't even greet her.
Yeah, he just turned around togo confront Pierce, which is in
line with I'm the Punisher, butis not in line with the
redemption arc that we've beengiven for him, which is genuine
affection and care for thishuman being who's hurting.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
But that also gets to his single-mindedness.
Yeah, yes, because he was goingthere to stop Pierce from
hurting her.
Right, pierce had already hurther, and so he was, so I got to
know, and he was in that sort ofsleep, deprived wildness, wild
(23:37):
state yeah.
And that's.
It's a shame, because you knowlike tricks he could have used
an adult, because I can't howupsetting, like the last time
she and her mother had spokenshe's like oh, is he why you've
been so happy lately?
And then she comes home from abirthday party and her mom is
(23:58):
like I'm sure had dried hertears by then.
Right, you know, because shewas like I gotta be Because
that's the kind of gal, she isAn adult but, you know, was not
capable of answering the door,you know, yeah.
So, yeah, it's painful.
I do want to say how did Marcusexplain the loss of his tattoo
(24:22):
to Chloe?
Speaker 2 (24:24):
She must not.
I mean, I guess he wore longer,I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Are they never nudes when they have sex?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh right, Because they clearly are doing it.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, and like the only times we see anything about
it, there's like some afterglowwhere they're both fully
dressed and they're at work, somaybe they're just you know like
yeah, maybe they are fullyclothed when they're doing it.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Just get the relevant bits uncovered, I mean when
you're doing it, in the evidencelocker.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
That I understand, but then they're, you know, like
they're, like you know he'slike oh, this is really great.
And she's like this is this iscrap.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Crap, they're both fully dressed.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah.
So I mean maybe because they'relike-.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean, maybe he just said.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I had it lasered off.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, I know it's not it's nota big deal.
I mean she's managed to likegloss over the fact that she's
partners with the devil for twoyears.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
So that is more like okay, he's delusional.
This is something that he'sdelusional.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yes, but his super human strength she has seen on
multiple occasions, true Fromthe very beginning.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
It's like the whether or not a tattoo is there is a
little more like-.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Really, then, like bending a shotgun, really Like
laser tattoo or whatever.
Well, there's a thing, okay,true, like I mean I know, and
she's seen him naked.
It's not like he's, you know,like the rock or something.
At least not in these seasons.
He's not doing the rock jobs in.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
True, true, okay, I will give you that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So, speaking of super human strength, we've talked
before about how that seems alittle inconsistent, like
Winklow is around, so here wasanother one in the yes, he still
has it column, and I thoughtthat was actually really funny,
like that was a cute line whenhe was like I've always wanted
to do that, oh, done that before.
That was pretty funny.
There were a couple of, thoughthere was one inconsistency that
(26:26):
I noted, which I guess I couldkeep for fluff but now I've
started so I'm just going to doit which is that they either
didn't remember or didn't carethat Lucifer names Gabriel's
pronouns as he, him.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I noticed that, but when we meet Gabriel.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Gabriel's his sister Very much a woman.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yes, yeah, that bothered me too, which you know
like it's.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It's like they maybe were like whatever.
It was 30 seconds, it's fine,just keep going.
Yeah, yeah, but I noticed that.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I did too.
Yeah, so I do want to take amoment to talk about Charlotte.
Well, for one thing, the scenewhere Lucifer reveals his wings
to her is that's redemptive onLucifer's part with how horribly
he treated her before and wherehe's like OK, we'll make this
(27:21):
right in the only way possible.
And then props to Tricia Hulferfor like nailing her facial
expression of like the awe ofwhat she's seeing and the joy of
being like.
My greatest fear is not trueand you know, that's
(27:43):
conversation for another time,if we ever have it of why her
greatest fear is that she'scrazy.
Like what is that saying?
What does that mean?
Why is that such a terrifyingthing for?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
her.
I have to say it totally makessense with the profile of the
character that they this likehard driving, very successful,
very smart, in control.
I mean like being in control iswho she is.
Charlotte, is CharlotteRichards' comfortable place,
Like that is her comfort zone,and so a mental health issue
(28:18):
that would steal time and haveher not in control.
I mean, to me it's very clearlythe lack of control.
The stigma around mental health, sure, but specifically with
this character profile it's thelack of control that is so
terrifying.
I think yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Yeah, no, that definitely.
That definitely makes sense.
Sorry, I totally interruptedyou.
You were saying no, no, no, no,I like, I just I so appreciate
the way that that she playedthat Like you believed she was
actually looking at like yeahWings, and it wasn't just CGI.
I do want to point out when shehas that jeweler in her office
(29:00):
I don't know if you noticed, butit's the same jeweler that they
went and interviewed in the myBrother's Keeper, oh, really.
Yeah, yeah.
So I was like nice.
I mean like I wonder if it'sjust they had, you know, that
actor on speed dial or you knowthat's pretty cool.
But it was, it was pretty nice,it was, it was pretty cool that
(29:20):
they did not notice that.
So but that that.
The other aspect that's alsoreally interesting is her
despair at the like.
The minute I thought that therewas a loophole, I went back to
my old ways and that's justhuman, that's just being human
and you know it's.
It's completely comprehensiblewhy she, she, she did that.
(29:42):
I mean, it would have been verydifficult for her to try to be
a different person and herattempts were based in fear.
Mm hmm, not.
In general.
It was not an intrinsicmotivation, right, which is not
going to create a real change,right?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Although that her telling the truth Everyone was
amazing and you actually, you'repretty great, you're pretty
great.
Actually, stop talking aboutyour kids.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Ella was the Greek course, again Totally with the,
although maybe I should savethis for fluff.
But when she's she's like getit Decker, because the wall is
shared with the lab, I'm like,how did you know that was Decker
and anyway.
And then like when she's justlike how are you doing?
Player, and like Lucifer is sobefuddled he's like looking back
(30:42):
and forth and like I knowsomething's going on, but what
she's suggesting is somethingthe detective would never do, so
I don't know what's going on.
I also when Chloe's realizingher double on time, lucifer,
when she, he was here, is goingto be, you know, on every case
now.
And she's like we just came to,we just drove together.
(31:05):
Yeah, now you've got DNA onyour shirt.
What I did, what?
Oh, that's pretty funny, thatwas pretty good, yeah, so, oh,
anyway, I do want to get back toCharlotte, but the, the, the
conversation with the Menendale,where he's like you know,
logistically that ain'thappening, not even like, even
(31:25):
if we could, we wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
And the, the pathos of her real life, like I am
going to hell yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
And there are no shortcuts, and that's really
overwhelming and that, I feellike, is what Linda was trying
to protect her from.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
Because the like, getting the validation that's
her missing time.
It's missing for a very goodreason.
Missing for a good reason andthat there's nothing, she's not
losing control of her ownfaculties was one aspect of her.
I can't think of the word Iwant, but I'm upset of her
(32:09):
struggles.
That was only one aspect.
Another aspect is therealization that she's got to
change as a person and notknowing how to, and that's
understandable and relatable andreally tough yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
So Well, I feel like maybe we both already gave our
fluff, things.
Oh no, no, no, oh, I have somegood ones I have saved one.
I think it is time, and now isthe time in Lightbringers, when
we share fluff.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
For my Gen Xers out there.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
That's for my Gen Xers out there.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
On sprockets, On sprockets.
Ok, so I was.
I was watching these in myoffice and my spouse wandered in
, and it was during.
Orange is the New Maze whenLucifer and Chloe are leaving
the conference room not theconference room, the
interrogation room and he startsgrabbing things.
(33:07):
You're like.
OK, we got to find the rightthing, and so he grabs a stapler
and he grabs a hoagie out ofthe hands of a like nameless
uniformed cop and my spouse, whohas made it clear he does not
like Lucifer, which it's good ofyou that you haven't divorced
him yet.
I know he needs to know.
(33:28):
So the point where he was, hewas saying this and I was just
like I don't talk about you orsay your name or anything like
that, but I'm going to out youand he said you wouldn't, so
anyway.
So Lucifer grabs the sandwichand my spouse goes.
That isn't realistic and Ithought he was going to be on
(33:49):
something.
He's just like that cop wouldnot be OK with him just taking
his sandwich.
He just turns and walks away.
He's armed, he's an armedpolice officer, and then what
does he do with the sandwich?
It disappears in between that.
And when he's talking toCharlotte, what happened to the
sandwich?
He's like you need to tell themthat your spouse, who is a fan
(34:17):
of sandwiches, has a problemwith that plot point.
It is a plot hole.
That does go like yeah, butthen he just wanders away and
like to be fair to my spouse,most people would be like hey,
give me that I was eating that.
(34:39):
Yes, oh, that's funny, but yeah, so.
So that was, that was one pieceof fluff.
And then the other was I justan appreciation fluff for
Lucifer's French made costume?
Oh, my gosh.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
(35:01):
You know when you're trying tostand up you have a light the
bad word in rough.
The French made costume Likeand so in my head I was just
like.
So you know, on the nights whenyou're feeling sleepy but you
got to stay up, you go get yourFrench made costume and tricycle
.
Like you do Clean, you cleanthe counters and so, like the
(35:27):
cleaning, I kind of understandthe putting together the IKEA
bookshelf.
I do not understand, becausethose don't go together well
when you're well caffeinated andfully rested.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
Speak to yourself.
I can put an IKEA cabinettogether at three in the morning
.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I mean, I don't know, but I can do it when I'm awake
and fully caffeinated.
I cannot do it when I'm waking,fully caffeinated.
I just, I have a lowfrustration tolerance, and so
you know anything that raisesthe frustration tolerance which
is already like damn you, IKEAand your flat pack, I mean.
(36:04):
Then then like, of course, youalso invite the underground
fight club into your penthouseUnderground, engage in some
light SNM, or you get a largescreen TV and mainline bones.
That's the only one that Icould actually see myself doing.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It was interesting that he didn't have a TV until
he had to stay out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Oh, oh, one other.
I remember the other fluff Iwanted to mention.
It's the one that I texted you.
We have a large number of blackJews in Lucifer's, los Angeles,
because the guy the rehabcenter's name was Phil Goldstein
, and we come to find him andhe's a black dude with the last
(36:56):
name Goldstein, and I don't.
Goldberg Greenberg, I think wasthe name of, was Goldberg,
wasn't it?
Yeah, it was Ryan GoldbergGreenberg who was the agent,
definitely like a Meshpacha name.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yeah, so yeah, and I wonder I wonder if that's like
the writers are like putting inthese Jewish names and then want
to avoid antisemitism.
So cast black dudes, yeah.
Instead of Jewish white, jewishlooking dudes, I should specify
Ashkenazi looking I don't knowLike.
(37:31):
I wonder if there's a littlebit of like hedging their bets
there.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, well, and it's, it's something where I
don't know how many non Jewswould clock these names as, like
that, that's, that's a Jewishname, right, right, I think,
because it's sadly theantisemites will true true.
I just remember there was anold Northern Exposure episode
(37:56):
where Joel was trying to tell Icannot remember her name but his
the, the pilot.
No, no, no, no, the, the nativewoman who was like his, not
second.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Marilyn, marilyn.
He was trying to tell her howyou know that a name, the last
name, is Jewish, and he's likewell, if it ends in Berg, or if
it ends in, you know, no, orStein, or yeah, and so, so
easily if it ends in Nura, andshe's like, oh, it's like Kevin
Costner is like no, a fat Nura,yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So that's sort of like precious metal plus like
Steen Stein Berg, you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I just I found that really interesting.
And then I was also like well,it's sad that there's a, you
know, a larger number of blackJews in the the Los Angeles of
Lucifer, although you know thereis a large number of Jewish
people in Los Angeles.
So you, know.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Yeah, I mean it would make sense because there's a I
mean Jews of color somewherebetween 12 and 20% of the Jewish
population.
So many.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
I did not know that that is fascinating, so but I
hate that both of the times thatI have clocked it they've been
kind of pieces of shit.
Yeah, yeah, like can we get ahero?
Yeah, is it Jew of color?
That would be nice.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
So I mean Phil was less, he like Ryan was like
actually the murderer.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah, he was a villain, yeah, he was a.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
He was the villain.
Yeah, this guy was just kind oflike kind of just kind of a
schmuck, yeah, not like evil.
Speaker 3 (39:29):
No, no, no, no, not like not a villain, but still
kind of, kind of a schmuck, likeI don't want my wife to know.
This gets my wife off my back,for you know, sleeping with
prostitutes, and it's just likeyeah, brody.
So anyway, phil Goldstein, toeach wife better, yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
She's a rich book.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Those are my fluffs and I've got.
I got a call in like sixminutes that I should get to.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Well, we better go, then we better go, because we
have over thunk it, I'll see younext week.
We have over thunk it.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
We have, go us go, yes, and and you know what, go
my spouse, who, again, I'm notgoing to name because I don't
want to out him and not out him,but you know, just like it
would be hard to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
But yes, that's that good point about the sandwich.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Yes, but he made an excellent point about the
sandwich way to go, brother inlaw.
He made me laugh because Ithought he was going to be like
that doesn't make sense.
I'm solving devil, which youknow.
I know he's already knows that.
But I thought he was going tolike go for the jugular with
something that he felt wasunrealistic, but and he did.
But you know, the jugular of ahoagie.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
All right, I'll see you next week.
You next week.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Our theme song is Ferrell Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,Licensed under Creative Commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(41:14):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
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