January 25, 2024 • 44 mins
When you aren’t binging, “Anything Pierce Can Do I Can Do Better” & “All Hands On Decker,” are painful episodes to watch. Lucifer’s obliviousness is torture to Chloe Decker, who simply wants to be seen and loved.
Tracie gets her Toms mixed up, Emily cannot abide the notion of a 20-min delay in Los Angeles, and the incongruous hair texture of actor and character are once again noticed. We think about #MeToo vis a vis the male water polo team who show up at Chloe’s bachelorette party and agree that undergraduates are basically toddlers.
As always, the sisters spend some time appreciating the beauty of Tom Ellis, especially as he portrays devastated Lucifer, and as always, they find ridiculousness to make one another laugh (the Pierce/Chloe Decker ship will forever be known as Pecker). There’s also no small amount of brain space devoted to the exploration of what mortality provides humanity and why art so often imagines immortals losing it when faced with the truth of death.
Mentioned in this episode:
Scythe series by Neal Schusterman
The Good Place
Memento Mori
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I am here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker yes,
hyphen, and I'm here with mysister, emily Guy Birken.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
no, hyphen, and together we are lightbringers
where we illuminate the deepermeaning of the crime-solving
devil TV show.
And, yes, we are overthinkingit.
Yeah, so today, tracy, we aregoing to be talking about
episodes 321 and 322.
Anything Pierce can do, I cando better.
(00:47):
And all hands on Decker.
Yes, so yes.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
These two episodes are like both fun and also just
heartbreaking.
Yes, the effect that Imentioned in our last episode of
my being forced to take my timeso that we can talk about it is
really like it's much morepainful show.
(01:14):
You know, just like pushthrough all of the different
ones.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, and what's interesting too is that these
were when it was still on Fox,and so it was coming out weekly.
People had to wait.
They intended for you to reallyfeel it.
Yeah, because I was justtalking with my book club about
this, about the differencebetween how we consume
television pre-Netflix,streaming and all of that and
(01:42):
how we consume it now, and howthat's changed, how they write
it and they know you're going towatch it in a binge or so.
For one thing, they have to gettheir consistency.
Their consistency departmenthas got to be much more, much
beefier than it was.
Yeah, yeah, agreed, not that.
That.
Is that what they call it likethe consistency department?
(02:04):
Is it like the department ofredundancy department?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I don't know, having never worked on a major
television production.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
But yeah, I know it is someone's job to check things
like consistency of wheresomeone is standing, because
they don't necessarily filmscenes all at once and that sort
of thing.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, and I feel like , whoever that was, it's
supposed to make sure that thetime of day matches kind of
fouled up in these two episodes,but they fell asleep all the
time.
Yeah, all right, I did notnotice that.
Where did you notice that it'sday, it's night, it's night, it
doesn't matter.
I mean because the I think theB role of like Lux is nighttime,
(02:48):
mm gotcha, anyway, it reallylike, in the whole scheme of
things, not a big deal, yeah, soso let's talk about everything
Pierce can do, or I can dobetter.
Oh, that's a painful one.
It's so hard because I'm I am sosquarely team Lucifer.
Yes, I love him so much, I know, and he's so clueless in this
(03:12):
episode and cruelly clueless.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know, like it's not just that he's clueless,
because I mean it is.
I mean like someone can beclueless and that can cause
cause, like a cruel cause,cruelty, and that's what's
happening.
But he's also intentionallyclueless in that he has people
who can help him understand andhe refuses to let that happen.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
The, the, the actual, I mean.
The conclusion that we are ledto believe explicitly so is that
facing the reality is sopainful for him that he will do
(03:59):
anything to avoid it, which isyou know that that fits with
people who well, that fits withnarcissism.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So you know, people who are narcissistic will do
anything to avoid the the thetruth about the narcissistic
injury, but that's not what'sgoing on here Exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
It's, you know, the so afraid of rejection, yeah, so
afraid of rejection that hecan't actually face the fact
Vulnerable or genuine.
Well, he can't face the factthat he actually has genuine
feelings for this person, I mean, which he's already I felt like
he's already come to grips withand sort of felt like it was
(04:44):
unfair to put that on her.
We've, we've you and I'vetalked about that.
That's not what the showrunners are showing us in these
episodes.
These episodes they are showingus a fear, like a paralyzing
fear of rejection and forwhatever well, it's not, for
(05:06):
whatever reason.
Like that is harder for me towatch than the sort of tortured,
you know, like the classic,like we can't be together
because it would be wrong, but Ilove you.
That sort of dance feelstortured but somehow noble,
(05:28):
which I know.
I've been conditioned to feelthat way about it.
Yeah, this dance of I'mterrified, you're going to
reject me, even though we asviewers know she isn't going to
reject him.
Yeah.
It's just, it's just hard towatch.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Mm hmm, mm, hmm.
Well, and this watch through andI think, because I watched it
so quickly, I was verysusceptible to the common
complaint that Chloe saying yesto Pierce was out of character
and that this was like the showrunners like forcing them
together and like we've talkedabout how this love triangle
(06:05):
doesn't work.
However, having seen what she'sgoing through at that dinner,
when he's lit all the candles,he's got the roses and he's just
like see anything he can do, Ican do better and her like
devastation is I actually is thefirst time where I really put
(06:29):
myself in her place and I wasjust like I can totally see
where there's this guy that shereally does like, who has been
making her happy, who is steadyand dependable and who is
showing with actions how hecares about her and not words.
And the person that she is kindof hung up on has made it clear
(06:50):
over and over and over againhe's not dependable.
In a moment of likevulnerability, she'd be like
yeah, you know what?
Yes, let's do this, let me, I'mgonna move towards the thing
that feels sure.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, and she even.
I mean I actually again, youknow I'm not a huge Lauren
German fan, but I feel like Iowe Ms German an apology because
I think in this season, whichis not one of my favorite
seasons- no.
Tom Holland, tom Welling I can'tget the toms right.
Tom Holland is totallydifferent.
(07:24):
He's a different guy.
Tom Welling, in these twoepisodes, lauren German nails it
.
I mean, I think her makeupartists maybe didn't, because
when, when Ella is like I'meither hungover, I've been
crying, and then she takes themoff and she's like, oh, what's
wrong?
And I was like she's got funnymy makeup on.
Yeah, but that's an aside.
(07:45):
German herself, as you say, inthat scene she's like really
loving it at Luxe.
When she was like I thought wewere just gonna talk and he was
like I just you know.
And then she starts to thinklike wow, maybe this is it.
He's jealous enough.
You know that he sees how muchI mean to him and how important
(08:06):
I am to him and you know, maybewe can actually make this work.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, well, and her delivery of why are you doing
this to me?
Because it really does, at thatpoint, feel like it is
something he's doing to her, toher, yeah, yeah and oh gosh.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, because his delivery made her a prize in a
contest.
Yes, as opposed to a humanbeing or you know another soul
with whom he feels a connectionand wants to, you know,
reinforce that connection.
Yeah, I felt like she really,she really nailed it in that
scene.
And then again to your point ofwhy would she say yes, that
(08:47):
little like monologue, it's nota monologue because they gave us
the bus driver to be listeningon the bus.
When the other women havegotten off, I bought it.
Yeah, I really, I believed it.
Like why did I even say yes,this is not in care.
Like she says, this is not acharacter for me.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And here's why.
And I totally bought it.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It made sense.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
The thing that then didn't make sense to me though I
know for our storytellingpurposes why we needed it was
the I'm giving you the ring backlike we're over, or that was
the implication where it feltmore like the response from that
soliloquy that wasn't wouldhave been let's slow down.
Slow down.
Yeah, yeah, like this is waytoo fast.
(09:31):
Like I care about this personand there are lots of great
things and I, you know, maybeeven love them and maybe one day
this is the right thing, butholy cow.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I like I shouldn't jump in so quickly.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, that felt like the actual conclusion, not like
here's the ring back, we're done.
Though, for storytellingpurposes we needed to have that
break so that Welling's Caincould like go for it, go for it
yeah.
Yeah, we needed that.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But so yeah, although I mean, I think it may also be
that she realized that she's notreally in love with him, like
but it's not explicit.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, I didn't get that from that soliloquy.
It's not explicit.
From that soliloquy I got, I'mrushing into this because I'm
unhappy and because I'm tryingto make myself be someone I'm
not.
Yeah, yeah, but I took that tobe the rushing, not the actual.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Not the actual relationship.
Fair, fair I'll give you that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So the thing, one of the things I want to talk about,
that I feel like another thingthat is a core element of the
show as a whole, which alsoshows up really beautifully and
satisfyingly in these twoepisodes, is the mirroring of
the case and whatever'shappening in the drama of their
lives.
(10:56):
And so, like the moment ofrecognition when Lucifer is
actually explaining whathappened and why the dancer did
what he did, because Lucifer'sexplaining about his own
relationship with the rival ormoving things out of the way or
whatever, I thought that likeagain, it just maybe it was a
(11:19):
little heavy handed but I likedit.
I found it very satisfying tohave him sort of like and the
way that Ellis delivers the kindof dawning recognition through
his facial expression just worksfor me.
Yeah, I mean, everything aboutsomething else works for me, but
I think we've established thatafter I mean how many episodes
(11:42):
we've put out?
Yeah, 20, some.
Yeah, but that sort of dawningrecognition was, I bought it all
and I found it exceedinglysatisfying.
Yeah especially.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
The thing that really struck me this time around was
the fact that the dancer, miguel, sounded like he was like top
of his profession, like there'sno reason why he should have
felt so insecure about hisaffection for Amber, so like I
(12:18):
don't think I've rememberednoticing this the first time
through.
But his there was somethinglike should they show the play
bill?
And it was like featuringMiguel and Reyna and like so he
was like the big top billing,and so that draws yet another
parallel where it's just like,seriously, Lucifer, why can't
you see that you have a lot tooffer and actually you're
(12:43):
diminishing yourself by thinkingthat you don't in the same way
that this.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
I mean like this guy made himself a murderer Right
when All he had to do was sayAll he had to do was say, hey,
let's go out for a littleclenching coffee.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah.
And poor Amber.
Poor Amber, I mean, like she,she cared for him too.
She's lost that opportunity.
She lost the mentor that shereally, like, was learning from
and felt good about.
You know, like, oh my goodness.
And you know the married manwho was having a relationship
(13:17):
with Reyna not quite so poor,poor him.
Just like, dude, you aremarried, but he truly loved her.
Yeah, I seem to so like youknow, you feel for him as well.
You know, for whatever couldhave or would have been, you
know, one would hope that hewould do the right thing and end
his marriage so that he's notstringing his wife along.
(13:41):
But anyway, I just Iappreciated the, that parallel
too, because I felt like theydid a good job of finding
someone who would similarly belike, seriously, why, why can't
you just not be insecure aboutthis?
Cause you're kind of awesome,you know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you know, and it's funnytoo.
I mean that, that again, thelook on Ellis' face when Linda
says, but what do you desire?
And he says I want her tochoose me, which becomes a
through line for the remainingseasons, like that idea of
(14:18):
choosing.
But, you know, with this sortof welling up of tears and just
just the the two orval.
In fact, I watched it and I waslike Emily loves him right now.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, I may have rewound and watched that scene a
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
because Emily loves a broken Lucifer, I do.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Lucifer doesn't say it is my favorite, lucifer.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah.
So that face and and whenLinda's like, then go it and
like clearly that's the rightthing to do.
We've seen it like in the case,we've seen it here, like
Linda's made it plain, like, andthen it was a little less than
believable that he would bestanding in the window like to
witness the proposal, but I wentwith it that that's
(15:03):
storytelling.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
short, short cut.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It is.
I mean, yeah, and I and Ifilled in the back like he saw
the motorcycle out front and sohe walked around and it's still
creepy, but whatever, I free youfor it.
Yeah, yeah, that that moment.
And then that same sort of likedawning understanding in the
second episode that we'retalking about, which I feel like
(15:31):
this use of Dan.
I guess we have had him in thisway, but like as that foil to
Lucifer.
We've had that a couple oftimes, this one in particular,
where Dan gets the message fromthe case in ways that Lucifer
fails to.
I found that also reallysatisfying, right Like when the
(15:57):
murderer comes home with the dogand Dan is sitting there in the
dark.
That's a total Lucifer moveright.
Like that is a thing thatLucifer does on the regular, and
the way that Dan has kind oflike adapted the Luciferisms
yeah, I found that exceedinglysatisfying.
(16:17):
And then, even when he likedecides he's gonna go tell
Charlotte what he wants, he doesit in a Dan sort of delivery
but it works and like.
So that was like for as aviewer, like seeing the clear
messages that we're getting ofwhat the thing to do is and then
(16:38):
seeing it work, but seeingLucifer like still unable to do
it.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, even like once at the end, once he knows like
she's kind of toying with herringless finger and he starts to
tell her, realizes that she'snot wearing the ring and, like
you know, kind of she indicatesthat that's over, and so he's
like, okay, nevermind, I'm notgonna tell you anything.
And it's like Did you learn?
(17:07):
Anything, yeah, yeah, but Imean thinking about, like the
level of fear a normal humanwould have, you know, and so
multiply it by whatever, forCeleste she'll having the same
kind of kind of fear.
Right right, I do wanna talkquickly about Charlotte in these
two episodes.
Well, for one thing, I feellike Amenadiel kind of missed
(17:32):
missed the memo that she waslatching onto this for the wrong
reason.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
She is hilarious, though.
Oh, my goodness, I need yourbike for a minute.
Don't worry, it's for God.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's for God, my family and I just recently went
to see Blues Brothers in thetheater, and so I'm just we're
on a mission from God.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I had the same thought.
I haven't seen it recently, butwhen she said, don't worry,
it's for God, I had the samethought.
I saw, you know the glasses andthe yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And so yeah, so I was thinking about that, which I'm
like.
Of course, the writing staff isBlues Brothers.
I'm sure that was intentional,but she's very clearly like is
focusing on like okay, this ismy way out of hell, okay, I
gotta succeed at this, and she'slike bringing all my type A
success to this.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right, right, I'm gonna win yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But the thing that I also really noticed in these two
episodes and I kind of wouldlike to like watch two episodes
back to back one from season twowhere she's the goddess
inhabiting Charlotte Richards,and one, like one of these two
episodes because I noticed sheseemed younger in these episodes
in a way that I can't quite putmy finger on how she's
(18:50):
different, what's different inher delivery or any of that but
there was something timeless interms of like ancient timeless
when she was the goddess,whereas here, you know like,
yeah, this is a woman in herlate 30s or early 40s who was
flailing, you know like, andthat was just really cool, like
realizing that.
I'm just like, damn, trishaElfer is underappreciated
(19:12):
actress and she needs to be ineverything Cause she is amazing.
Yeah, yeah, I have a littlecrush on Trisha Elfer.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
She's pretty awesome, she is amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And she can ride a motorcycle, I mean.
I mean I assume in there was astunt ride, she can.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
But like.
But her stunt level is probablylike a 20 year old man.
You know cause she's so talland lean and beautiful Anyway
okay.
So Trisha, elfer and Charlotteand Amina Deal like not getting
what's going wrong with this andactually, like they also the
(19:54):
alliance between Amina Deal andLucifer right, like, like it's
God's will that you be withChloe and Lucifer's like don't
ruin it, I'm just glad we're onthe same team, you know like,
but the, the alliances are notaligned even though they're
allied.
It's really, it's reallyinteresting with that, okay.
(20:18):
So, speaking of alignment, thescene when, when Charlotte tells
Amina Deal to like tap into hisown insecurities, and that
scene at Luxe when Amina Deallike plants the seeds of like
you're really could die anyminute now, that was pretty cool
(20:39):
, like that was pretty.
And what was really interestingto me is that, like all of us
watching it are like, yeah, likethat's what it means to be
human.
Yeah, that is like like thegood place was all about that,
right, yeah, but similarly right, like when Michael in the good
(20:59):
place not Michael, not Tom Ellisas Michael the archangel, but
Michael the architect, the demonarchitect the good place when
he confronts mortality.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Potential mortality.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, he has like a complete meltdown.
And so there's something reallysatisfying and interesting
about like in in this sort ofdramatic irony, sort of sense of
watching a human beingportraying an immortal coming
(21:34):
through what it means to behuman, and there's something
like really like I find thatparticular vein of storytelling
satisfying and like validating,which I guess is why we do it.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, we the like there's something I was thinking
about last week when I talkedabout how to pierce it must feel
like he's the only real humanbeing.
And so it's interesting because, like we as humans, we can't
(22:08):
actually be in that situation,but we like to imagine what it
would be like and then, like, dothe reverse engineer, imagining
what it would be like tosuddenly have your mortality?
Yeah, and how like?
There's so many stories likethis about this.
There's a there's a fantasticYA series called Sive by Neil
(22:30):
Shusterman, which I think Imight have mentioned to you when
I read the first one, becauseNeil Shusterman is Jewish and it
felt like there was a lot ofJewish thoughts on death and
mortality.
And it's basically human beingsafter they have solved the
problem of death, so like ifsomething happens to you or you
get hit by a bus or something,you become dead-ish, but they
(22:51):
just need to get you to ahospital within like a couple of
hours and they can revive you.
So the only way to truly die isto not be revived, like past
the point of no return, and thatdoesn't happen.
And so, because you can't haveimmortal humans forever, they
have sides which are the peoplewho cull random humans to just
(23:14):
make sure that they maintain thepopulation density, and so
thinking about, like one of thethings that they brought up in
that book was the fact that artwas more meaningful before death
was solved and that you know,there's art and all purpose had
(23:37):
more meant more.
We spent so much time grapplingwith, like the meaning and the
fact that meaning only comesabout because there is an end.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Right, I mean it's like a driving force for a
memento mori, right?
Like remember that you will dieis like a mantra of sorts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And it's interesting because I actually have the
thought, you know, just looking,projecting forward, knowing,
like, which of these characterswill end up in heaven and have,
and then there's, there's a likea suggestion of crossover with
the good place which we'll getto, which I love, I love, but
that also suggests that thatthis heaven has the same problem
(24:21):
as the good places, heaven, inthat if things are eternal, then
there is no meaning.
I find it like it's fascinating.
And then it's also fascinatingbecause we've never actually
seen a menedial express any ofthese insecurities himself.
We've seen him express theinsecurities about losing God's
favor.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, the actual mortality, you're right.
Yeah, I've not seen that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And so it's interesting to think about that.
Particularly with an angel likenow, they can be eliminated,
which is what happened to Urielwith Azrael's blade.
So that's it, they're gone,there's, there's, there's,
there's no afterlife.
But what does mortality evenmean to an angel, right?
(25:06):
You know what does it mean tohim?
That he knows he's going to goto heaven or hell, right?
So why is that scary to him?
You know, and yeah, Iappreciated that scene very much
, Like props to wellings actingthere Like he was just like yes,
it's great.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, there was that dawning that same facial.
Yeah, that dawning ofunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, and considering how Machiavellian he is, you
think he recognizes being played, but it's also he has been so
single minded Like this is whatI want, this is what I want, for
it's got to be at least athousand of his thousands of
years.
He's forgotten what it actuallymeans in some ways, you know,
(25:57):
because I was thinking also it'sbeen so long since he felt the
fear of mortality.
Because even if he felt it whenhe couldn't be killed, you know
the first 50 years likeeventually it were off, right.
It's just, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating to think aboutand consider like does that
(26:17):
ever, could that ever go away?
I've really appreciated that, Ido.
I want to talk about May's.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, that's where I wanted to go next.
That's where I wanted to gonext to, actually, yes, may's
and Charlotte as like foils ofone another, which clearly
everyone seemed to see that well, except maybe Ella, that like,
if Chloe got real drunk andthought about it too hard, she
wouldn't go through with thewedding.
(26:47):
Like May's clearly thought thatthat that was the case, but so
did Charlotte.
Right, charlotte helped heralong.
I remember just really deeplyenjoying Leslie and Brandt in
like the sweater dress and thepearls the first time I saw this
.
This time, like because I amsavoring it a little more, the
(27:08):
incongruity of it stood out allthe more.
Like whoa, that is just not.
Like where did she even findthat stuff?
Like that was not in May'scloset.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Other thing I love is it when she and Linda about
start fighting?
She takes off her earrings.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Oh, my goodness, I did notice that Linda ended up
with the black water polo player, but that was an interesting
little nod to Linda'sAttractions, mm hmm, her type.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I do want to say something a little gross
about like okay, so she's got todeal with the water polo team
and my immediate thought is likewhat have they done?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
And hopefully it's something like Vandalism and not
raping someone.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah and then okay, so that's icky, so like, okay,
let's assume vandalism, publicurination while they're they're
drinking.
I don't know something.
You know, not a big deal.
You know they had too much todrink after celebrating.
You know their, their theirwinning water polo match, but
then she lets them off.
She's in a position ofauthority If they come do sexual
(28:30):
stuff for her friends, for abachelorette party.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
That ain't okay either.
And let's not forget that theyare undergrads.
Yes, because they're from thewhatever state university yeah,
malibu state.
So these are undergraduate boys, so we've been 22 and younger,
22 and younger.
And these women are all wellmazes, you know thousands of
years old and, like Linda,charlotte, chloe, are all meant
(28:59):
to be in their mid 30s to early40s.
I think Ella's a little younger, maybe like late 20s, early 30s
, but still undergraduates arefrigging babies.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
They are infants, they're toddlers.
I mean, you see them and it'sjust like don't run with
scissors.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
They are not.
They're not sexual conquestsfor adult people.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I do have to say Linda's comments really liked
him.
He smelled like chlorine andbutterscotch, which does not in
any way make it sound like he'smature enough to be with the 30s
or 40s.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I mean, he was a swimmer.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So well, yeah, but chlorine and butterscotch fudge
are not too sense that I wouldput on a silver fox.
Let's say Swimmer, swimmer.
Swimmer.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Maybe the butterscotch fudge is actually
those Werther's originals.
That's like grandma candies.
That's a little in the goldfoil.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Not saying it, but maybe those are just
butterscotch.
They're not butterscotch fudge.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Excuse me so.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
so yeah, and that was when did this episode come out?
I mean, I think it was, oh, I'mnot sure.
It must have been.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
It had to have been post me too, because me too was
2018 maybe, yeah.
And me too, was like late 2017because the season three and the
show started in 16 2016.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, yeah so yeah, because I was.
My first thought was like oh,maybe, maybe they wouldn't have
done this.
Post me too.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But it's actually an interesting point, though,
because, because of the natureof the power, usually in gender
difference, like it is stillsocially acceptable.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
It is still socially acceptable for us to talk about
women kind of objectifying andexploiting men Men?
Yeah, because of the yeah, I'mnot saying it's okay, no, but
there are reasons.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
And I like that's one of the reasons why it bothered
me is that the me too movementis part of what helped me
understand how sexual politicscan negatively affect men and
how often men are raped, butthen by women and so like, and
that's that's one of the thingswhere I was just like I wish
they'd taken a little bit moretime with this, but you know
(31:31):
it's also yeah, yeah like if ithad been like some sort of like
male review company that was oncharges of like public indecency
or something.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where, as opposed to like
undergrads, undergrads, yeah,but you know, like I, actually
this is an episode of.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
there's not a whole lot of episodes from season
three that I go back to, butthis is one of them because I
love the, I love the party, Ilove Lucifer channeling Lucinda.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Because that's what Dan calls him.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
There's also that's the veryfinal scene when Lucifer is like
I need someone I can depend on,and Dan's like the irony is
actually lost on you as well.
Yeah, and then he just keepsgoing until he's like oh, I hear
it now.
Yeah, that's not what he says,but that's there's something
(32:23):
really like the whole series tothis point, like in Lucifer
realizing what is in the way Mm,hmm, you know, yeah, besides
the whole celestial drama, butactually within his
interpersonal skills, what's inthe way?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
The other thing I really like in this episode is
when Dan calls him out, sayinglike you think Chloe is just her
job, like you don't even callher Chloe, you call her the
detective.
And he's like it's endearingwhich it is.
It is endearing, but Dan has anexcellent point Like she's
committed to her job, but that'snot all she is, like there is
more to her and you need to likesee her as a full human being.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
I'm thinking about that and that scene that we,
that we both love, on the beach.
When he's like you deservesomeone better, someone who sees
that every crime scene breaksyour heart and appreciates your
boring middle name and the like,whatever.
When she actually feels trulyseen by him, mm hmm, which is
the moment that they, you knowthat she initiates a kiss, that
(33:28):
she feels the closest to him,when she feels that he does see
him Sorry, he does see herpronouns man.
So it's really it's interestingto bring it back here, because
that that was, I mean, part ofthe reason that she was spurred
to kiss him in that moment wasbecause it was.
It felt unusual, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I will say I absolutely love in anything
Pierce can do.
I can do better.
When Dan finds out that Chloeand Pierce have broken up their
epic crime scene, and Lucifer isimmediately on like this is why
you should not take him back,and Dan is like quietly, like
I'm with you, buddy, but I'mstaying out of this.
Yeah, and there's also themoment when Pierce comes to talk
(34:13):
to Chloe while they're in theconference room and Lucifer, dan
and Ella all like come closerto the windows.
They can hear what's happening.
I don't know if you notice that.
It's just like like in lockstep.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
They're all like yep and I'm like I'm in that moment
as well.
But now she's totally DearsPekka.
(34:45):
Yeah, so now she's totally teamPekka.
But maybe it's less actuallyabout the partner and more about
Chloe.
She wants.
Chloe to be happy.
I don't know she.
She clearly is like Charlotte.
What are you doing, Mm?
Hmm, you know, when she seesChloe's face on the bus.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, and one of the things she says is like I only
have brothers.
I've always wanted to have asister, I've always wanted to to
plan a bachelorette party.
And that's what what gets Chloeto agree.
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
You're gonna pull the sister card Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And that's what I'm thinking Like.
She just feels this genuineconnection and sisterly
affection for Chloe and so, likewhen she's rooting for
Deckerstar it's not that shedoesn't like Lucifer, Like she,
she she clearly does, sheclearly does but he's a weirdo,
he is a weirdo.
You know.
And then seeing how he hasupset Chloe, let her down
(35:43):
through the years, like yeahyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
And also Ella was a fan of Pierce's even when from
the beginning.
Even when, like he didn'tdeserve fans.
Yeah, ella was a fan of his, sothat also.
Yeah, okay, all right, that'sresolved in my head, thank, you.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
But there's like what I really like about Ella's
characterization is like so atone point she's like you're
ruining my bachelor party and Idon't remember.
You mean Chloe, so that'sthat's what I said.
That's what I said.
And what's funny is that evenElla's selfishness is for
someone else.
Yeah, you know, it's like it'snot that it's her bachelor party
(36:22):
that she's the center ofattention, it's that her, it's
her bachelor party that she'splanning to have, Right, Like
wonderful time to celebrate withher girlfriends.
Yeah, Although I had to say Iwas like looking at all of them
chugging alcohol in a movingvehicle Like I'm sorry.
(36:43):
In your 20s, maybe these areadult women who have had their
stomach betray them.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
That's funny Because I would be.
They would be having you knowcleaning issues after I was at
the party bus.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Okay, so I'm watching the time and I'm realizing that
time has come, that fluffyfluffy time.
Fluffy fluffy time At the endof, like bringers, what you got
for me today.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So I got one very small fluff and that is at the
beginning of All Hands on DeckorStar.
When Amanda Deal and Luciferare talking and Lucifer's
wearing that amazing like silkRopes and robe thing and
devastated and you can see hisbelly, she's like, yes, please,
(37:35):
his hair is so straight.
It's like so straight and likeon the one hand I like it looks
good Like they did a great jobwith it, but on the other hand
I'm like like they had to beathis hair into submission
Probably used to like a flatiron or something.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Oh my God, and I'm just like and how long is not
what he would have been doingwhen he was feeling devastated?
Yes, yeah, but Lucifer doesn'thave curly hair.
Yeah, tom Ellis, tom Ellis hascurly hair.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
That's my first one.
My second one, also in AllHands on Deckor Star, is there's
a point where they are heading.
Dan and Lucifer are heading totalk to a suspect and Dan's on
the phone.
He's like we would have beenthere 20 minutes earlier if we
had someone had enforced us tostop for a wardrobe change.
I want to say, like the devilis real.
I got it.
(38:26):
Angels are walking the earth.
They've got wings.
Sure, there's a you knowmillennia year old demon.
Absolutely, angels and humanscan, can procreate with together
.
Sure, got it.
Kane is still alive.
Kane is still alive.
Yes, 20 minutes Stopping.
Change in delay.
(38:47):
Stopping to change would onlytake 20 minutes in Los Angeles.
I'm sorry, it's a bridge toofar.
I am not willing to believethat.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
It would take more than 20 minutes in Baltimore, so
yeah, Like absolutely not, thatis.
That is just completelyunrealistic 10 times the size of
Baltimore.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
And like, even if it were on the way, how long to
take the park and get up to thepenthouse, and then he'd have to
go through his wardrobe figureout what he's going to wear.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Well, actually, if it's Lucifer, maybe they stopped
at a store and he he's wearingnew clothes, hmm, Still would
take more than 20 minutes.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But Well, because if he's wearing new clothes, that's
even more of a of a wardrobechoice, cause there's like you'd
have to look through everything.
What looks most like thedetective and what he chose
doesn't feel like the masculineversion of Chloe.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
It was like a leather jacket.
Yeah, I mean, she does oftenwear like stupid skinny black
jeans and like a like a shell,and then some sort of jacket
over time.
Okay, that is kind of herstandard.
All right, but the stupidskinny black jeans that just
don't look good on anybodyexcept Lauren German.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, okay so was that those are my two fluff, so
like, yes, I'll swallow it.
It's similar to how I boughteverything in black panther,
with the exception of MartinFreeman's American accent.
Couldn't buy.
It Was not just just I'm sorry,recast or make him MI six
instead of CIA.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So anyway, yes, mine is.
I don't know why in these twoepisodes and maybe in the maybe
it's just I just noticed it nowbut the costumer is putting
Ellis in these brown suits.
I do not like the brown.
Like they, just I they justdon't look good.
(40:38):
They I mean, of course theylook good because he's wearing
them, but they just they don'thave the same sort of like
luxury.
I feel like Ellis's three piecesuits in the show usually kind
of convey a elitism and a luxurythat is obscene, Right, like
(40:58):
that's the point.
Those brown suits are obscenefor a totally different reason.
It just don't work for me.
I don't know, I do not like thebrown suits and all of a sudden
I'm like understanding why,like the whole world went crazy
when Obama wore that tan suit.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Like brown suits just don't work, no, obama carried
off the tan suit, I will say Imean, okay, one point I would
like to to bring up forcostuming is that someone,
somewhere I don't remember whereI read it, was saying that they
had a theory that the color ofhis suits kind of reflected how
he was feeling.
Oh, and so like he was wearinglike very regularly wearing like
(41:39):
the black suit with like redaccents when he was like on the
devil, and then as he's feelingmore human, he he ends up
wearing like blue and, and youknow, a little softer, and then
he wears, wears kind of brightsuits when he's feeling good,
which I'm like that's a shame,because I hate the bright suits
almost as much as I hate thebrown.
Like when he wears like purpleand like green, I'm just like
(42:00):
I'm sorry, no, this is, it's notEaster to black church, you
just can't carry it off.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I don't know I so.
I thought that was aninteresting.
That is an interesting theory.
I would.
I'm going to pay attention nowto see if there's, if that
carries through and I'm going tosay I wish they had done it
with the Pocket square and yes,Pocket square and tie and stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, even the the the best.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Where's the tie actually?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yeah, the waistcoat or the socks or the shoes, but
like something about that allover brown, like Hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
One last thing before we go.
I do want to make sure Iclarify something I said last
week, which was I was talkingabout Phil Goldstein and how it
was so gross that like he wasstepping out on his wife with
prostitutes and over there, butI didn't make it clear that my
blood was about him stepping outon his wife and not about sex
(42:59):
workers.
Not about sex workers.
The sex workers are fine, youknow, that's the sex work is
work.
Sex work is work, that's right.
But the fact that he wasstepping out on his wife and she
clearly didn't like it, that'swhat I think.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
The blood with Phil Goldstein is.
It is almost more that like hewas, so like I just I'm doing
this rehab so that I can stilldo what I want.
Yeah, that's what's yeah In myhead.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, because it's not even like I actually have an
addiction and this is somethingI'm struggling with.
Yeah, anyway, I just havingrewatched last week, I was just
like, oh, I need to make surethat I'm clear on that, because
I don't want to put that vibeout into the world.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Sex work is work.
Sex work is work.
Period Full stop yes, all right.
Well, I think we have overthunkit enough.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
We have overthunk it.
We even reached intooverthinking last week.
You know our tendrils go in alldirections.
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I am here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker yes,
hyphen, and I'm here with mysister, emily Guy Birken.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
no, hyphen, and together we are lightbringers
where we illuminate the deepermeaning of the crime-solving
devil TV show.
And, yes, we are overthinkingit.
Yeah, so today, tracy, we aregoing to be talking about
episodes 321 and 322.
Anything Pierce can do, I cando better.
(00:47):
And all hands on Decker.
Yes, so yes.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
These two episodes are like both fun and also just
heartbreaking.
Yes, the effect that Imentioned in our last episode of
my being forced to take my timeso that we can talk about it is
really like it's much morepainful show.
(01:14):
You know, just like pushthrough all of the different
ones.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Well, and what's interesting too is that these
were when it was still on Fox,and so it was coming out weekly.
People had to wait.
They intended for you to reallyfeel it.
Yeah, because I was justtalking with my book club about
this, about the differencebetween how we consume
television pre-Netflix,streaming and all of that and
(01:42):
how we consume it now, and howthat's changed, how they write
it and they know you're going towatch it in a binge or so.
For one thing, they have to gettheir consistency.
Their consistency departmenthas got to be much more, much
beefier than it was.
Yeah, yeah, agreed, not that.
That.
Is that what they call it likethe consistency department?
(02:04):
Is it like the department ofredundancy department?
Speaker 3 (02:06):
I don't know, having never worked on a major
television production.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
But yeah, I know it is someone's job to check things
like consistency of wheresomeone is standing, because
they don't necessarily filmscenes all at once and that sort
of thing.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, and I feel like , whoever that was, it's
supposed to make sure that thetime of day matches kind of
fouled up in these two episodes,but they fell asleep all the
time.
Yeah, all right, I did notnotice that.
Where did you notice that it'sday, it's night, it's night, it
doesn't matter.
I mean because the I think theB role of like Lux is nighttime,
(02:48):
mm gotcha, anyway, it reallylike, in the whole scheme of
things, not a big deal, yeah, soso let's talk about everything
Pierce can do, or I can dobetter.
Oh, that's a painful one.
It's so hard because I'm I am sosquarely team Lucifer.
Yes, I love him so much, I know, and he's so clueless in this
(03:12):
episode and cruelly clueless.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know, like it's not just that he's clueless,
because I mean it is.
I mean like someone can beclueless and that can cause
cause, like a cruel cause,cruelty, and that's what's
happening.
But he's also intentionallyclueless in that he has people
who can help him understand andhe refuses to let that happen.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
The, the, the actual, I mean.
The conclusion that we are ledto believe explicitly so is that
facing the reality is sopainful for him that he will do
(03:59):
anything to avoid it, which isyou know that that fits with
people who well, that fits withnarcissism.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So you know, people who are narcissistic will do
anything to avoid the the thetruth about the narcissistic
injury, but that's not what'sgoing on here Exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
It's, you know, the so afraid of rejection, yeah, so
afraid of rejection that hecan't actually face the fact
Vulnerable or genuine.
Well, he can't face the factthat he actually has genuine
feelings for this person, I mean, which he's already I felt like
he's already come to grips withand sort of felt like it was
(04:44):
unfair to put that on her.
We've, we've you and I'vetalked about that.
That's not what the showrunners are showing us in these
episodes.
These episodes they are showingus a fear, like a paralyzing
fear of rejection and forwhatever well, it's not, for
(05:06):
whatever reason.
Like that is harder for me towatch than the sort of tortured,
you know, like the classic,like we can't be together
because it would be wrong, but Ilove you.
That sort of dance feelstortured but somehow noble,
(05:28):
which I know.
I've been conditioned to feelthat way about it.
Yeah, this dance of I'mterrified, you're going to
reject me, even though we asviewers know she isn't going to
reject him.
Yeah.
It's just, it's just hard towatch.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Mm hmm, mm, hmm.
Well, and this watch through andI think, because I watched it
so quickly, I was verysusceptible to the common
complaint that Chloe saying yesto Pierce was out of character
and that this was like the showrunners like forcing them
together and like we've talkedabout how this love triangle
(06:05):
doesn't work.
However, having seen what she'sgoing through at that dinner,
when he's lit all the candles,he's got the roses and he's just
like see anything he can do, Ican do better and her like
devastation is I actually is thefirst time where I really put
(06:29):
myself in her place and I wasjust like I can totally see
where there's this guy that shereally does like, who has been
making her happy, who is steadyand dependable and who is
showing with actions how hecares about her and not words.
And the person that she is kindof hung up on has made it clear
(06:50):
over and over and over againhe's not dependable.
In a moment of likevulnerability, she'd be like
yeah, you know what?
Yes, let's do this, let me, I'mgonna move towards the thing
that feels sure.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Yeah, and she even.
I mean I actually again, youknow I'm not a huge Lauren
German fan, but I feel like Iowe Ms German an apology because
I think in this season, whichis not one of my favorite
seasons- no.
Tom Holland, tom Welling I can'tget the toms right.
Tom Holland is totallydifferent.
(07:24):
He's a different guy.
Tom Welling, in these twoepisodes, lauren German nails it
.
I mean, I think her makeupartists maybe didn't, because
when, when Ella is like I'meither hungover, I've been
crying, and then she takes themoff and she's like, oh, what's
wrong?
And I was like she's got funnymy makeup on.
Yeah, but that's an aside.
(07:45):
German herself, as you say, inthat scene she's like really
loving it at Luxe.
When she was like I thought wewere just gonna talk and he was
like I just you know.
And then she starts to thinklike wow, maybe this is it.
He's jealous enough.
You know that he sees how muchI mean to him and how important
(08:06):
I am to him and you know, maybewe can actually make this work.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, well, and her delivery of why are you doing
this to me?
Because it really does, at thatpoint, feel like it is
something he's doing to her, toher, yeah, yeah and oh gosh.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Well, because his delivery made her a prize in a
contest.
Yes, as opposed to a humanbeing or you know another soul
with whom he feels a connectionand wants to, you know,
reinforce that connection.
Yeah, I felt like she really,she really nailed it in that
scene.
And then again to your point ofwhy would she say yes, that
(08:47):
little like monologue, it's nota monologue because they gave us
the bus driver to be listeningon the bus.
When the other women havegotten off, I bought it.
Yeah, I really, I believed it.
Like why did I even say yes,this is not in care.
Like she says, this is not acharacter for me.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
And here's why.
And I totally bought it.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
It made sense.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
The thing that then didn't make sense to me though I
know for our storytellingpurposes why we needed it was
the I'm giving you the ring backlike we're over, or that was
the implication where it feltmore like the response from that
soliloquy that wasn't wouldhave been let's slow down.
Slow down.
Yeah, yeah, like this is waytoo fast.
(09:31):
Like I care about this personand there are lots of great
things and I, you know, maybeeven love them and maybe one day
this is the right thing, butholy cow.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I like I shouldn't jump in so quickly.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, that felt like the actual conclusion, not like
here's the ring back, we're done.
Though, for storytellingpurposes we needed to have that
break so that Welling's Caincould like go for it, go for it
yeah.
Yeah, we needed that.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
But so yeah, although I mean, I think it may also be
that she realized that she's notreally in love with him, like
but it's not explicit.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Yeah, I didn't get that from that soliloquy.
It's not explicit.
From that soliloquy I got, I'mrushing into this because I'm
unhappy and because I'm tryingto make myself be someone I'm
not.
Yeah, yeah, but I took that tobe the rushing, not the actual.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Not the actual relationship.
Fair, fair I'll give you that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So the thing, one of the things I want to talk about,
that I feel like another thingthat is a core element of the
show as a whole, which alsoshows up really beautifully and
satisfyingly in these twoepisodes, is the mirroring of
the case and whatever'shappening in the drama of their
lives.
(10:56):
And so, like the moment ofrecognition when Lucifer is
actually explaining whathappened and why the dancer did
what he did, because Lucifer'sexplaining about his own
relationship with the rival ormoving things out of the way or
whatever, I thought that likeagain, it just maybe it was a
(11:19):
little heavy handed but I likedit.
I found it very satisfying tohave him sort of like and the
way that Ellis delivers the kindof dawning recognition through
his facial expression just worksfor me.
Yeah, I mean, everything aboutsomething else works for me, but
I think we've established thatafter I mean how many episodes
(11:42):
we've put out?
Yeah, 20, some.
Yeah, but that sort of dawningrecognition was, I bought it all
and I found it exceedinglysatisfying.
Yeah especially.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
The thing that really struck me this time around was
the fact that the dancer, miguel, sounded like he was like top
of his profession, like there'sno reason why he should have
felt so insecure about hisaffection for Amber, so like I
(12:18):
don't think I've rememberednoticing this the first time
through.
But his there was somethinglike should they show the play
bill?
And it was like featuringMiguel and Reyna and like so he
was like the big top billing,and so that draws yet another
parallel where it's just like,seriously, Lucifer, why can't
you see that you have a lot tooffer and actually you're
(12:43):
diminishing yourself by thinkingthat you don't in the same way
that this.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
I mean like this guy made himself a murderer Right
when All he had to do was sayAll he had to do was say, hey,
let's go out for a littleclenching coffee.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, yeah.
And poor Amber.
Poor Amber, I mean, like she,she cared for him too.
She's lost that opportunity.
She lost the mentor that shereally, like, was learning from
and felt good about.
You know, like, oh my goodness.
And you know the married manwho was having a relationship
(13:17):
with Reyna not quite so poor,poor him.
Just like, dude, you aremarried, but he truly loved her.
Yeah, I seem to so like youknow, you feel for him as well.
You know, for whatever couldhave or would have been, you
know, one would hope that hewould do the right thing and end
his marriage so that he's notstringing his wife along.
(13:41):
But anyway, I just Iappreciated the, that parallel
too, because I felt like theydid a good job of finding
someone who would similarly belike, seriously, why, why can't
you just not be insecure aboutthis?
Cause you're kind of awesome,you know.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you know, and it's funnytoo.
I mean that, that again, thelook on Ellis' face when Linda
says, but what do you desire?
And he says I want her tochoose me, which becomes a
through line for the remainingseasons, like that idea of
(14:18):
choosing.
But, you know, with this sortof welling up of tears and just
just the the two orval.
In fact, I watched it and I waslike Emily loves him right now.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah, I may have rewound and watched that scene a
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
because Emily loves a broken Lucifer, I do.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Lucifer doesn't say it is my favorite, lucifer.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah.
So that face and and whenLinda's like, then go it and
like clearly that's the rightthing to do.
We've seen it like in the case,we've seen it here, like
Linda's made it plain, like, andthen it was a little less than
believable that he would bestanding in the window like to
witness the proposal, but I wentwith it that that's
(15:03):
storytelling.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
short, short cut.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It is.
I mean, yeah, and I and Ifilled in the back like he saw
the motorcycle out front and sohe walked around and it's still
creepy, but whatever, I free youfor it.
Yeah, yeah, that that moment.
And then that same sort of likedawning understanding in the
second episode that we'retalking about, which I feel like
(15:31):
this use of Dan.
I guess we have had him in thisway, but like as that foil to
Lucifer.
We've had that a couple oftimes, this one in particular,
where Dan gets the message fromthe case in ways that Lucifer
fails to.
I found that also reallysatisfying, right Like when the
(15:57):
murderer comes home with the dogand Dan is sitting there in the
dark.
That's a total Lucifer moveright.
Like that is a thing thatLucifer does on the regular, and
the way that Dan has kind oflike adapted the Luciferisms
yeah, I found that exceedinglysatisfying.
(16:17):
And then, even when he likedecides he's gonna go tell
Charlotte what he wants, he doesit in a Dan sort of delivery
but it works and like.
So that was like for as aviewer, like seeing the clear
messages that we're getting ofwhat the thing to do is and then
(16:38):
seeing it work, but seeingLucifer like still unable to do
it.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, even like once at the end, once he knows like
she's kind of toying with herringless finger and he starts to
tell her, realizes that she'snot wearing the ring and, like
you know, kind of she indicatesthat that's over, and so he's
like, okay, nevermind, I'm notgonna tell you anything.
And it's like Did you learn?
(17:07):
Anything, yeah, yeah, but Imean thinking about, like the
level of fear a normal humanwould have, you know, and so
multiply it by whatever, forCeleste she'll having the same
kind of kind of fear.
Right right, I do wanna talkquickly about Charlotte in these
two episodes.
Well, for one thing, I feellike Amenadiel kind of missed
(17:32):
missed the memo that she waslatching onto this for the wrong
reason.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
She is hilarious, though.
Oh, my goodness, I need yourbike for a minute.
Don't worry, it's for God.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's for God, my family and I just recently went
to see Blues Brothers in thetheater, and so I'm just we're
on a mission from God.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I had the same thought.
I haven't seen it recently, butwhen she said, don't worry,
it's for God, I had the samethought.
I saw, you know the glasses andthe yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And so yeah, so I was thinking about that, which I'm
like.
Of course, the writing staff isBlues Brothers.
I'm sure that was intentional,but she's very clearly like is
focusing on like okay, this ismy way out of hell, okay, I
gotta succeed at this, and she'slike bringing all my type A
success to this.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Right, right, I'm gonna win yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But the thing that I also really noticed in these two
episodes and I kind of wouldlike to like watch two episodes
back to back one from season twowhere she's the goddess
inhabiting Charlotte Richards,and one, like one of these two
episodes because I noticed sheseemed younger in these episodes
in a way that I can't quite putmy finger on how she's
(18:50):
different, what's different inher delivery or any of that but
there was something timeless interms of like ancient timeless
when she was the goddess,whereas here, you know like,
yeah, this is a woman in herlate 30s or early 40s who was
flailing, you know like, andthat was just really cool, like
realizing that.
I'm just like, damn, trishaElfer is underappreciated
(19:12):
actress and she needs to be ineverything Cause she is amazing.
Yeah, yeah, I have a littlecrush on Trisha Elfer.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
She's pretty awesome, she is amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
And she can ride a motorcycle, I mean.
I mean I assume in there was astunt ride, she can.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
But like.
But her stunt level is probablylike a 20 year old man.
You know cause she's so talland lean and beautiful Anyway
okay.
So Trisha, elfer and Charlotteand Amina Deal like not getting
what's going wrong with this andactually, like they also the
(19:54):
alliance between Amina Deal andLucifer right, like, like it's
God's will that you be withChloe and Lucifer's like don't
ruin it, I'm just glad we're onthe same team, you know like,
but the, the alliances are notaligned even though they're
allied.
It's really, it's reallyinteresting with that, okay.
(20:18):
So, speaking of alignment, thescene when, when Charlotte tells
Amina Deal to like tap into hisown insecurities, and that
scene at Luxe when Amina Deallike plants the seeds of like
you're really could die anyminute now, that was pretty cool
(20:39):
, like that was pretty.
And what was really interestingto me is that, like all of us
watching it are like, yeah, likethat's what it means to be
human.
Yeah, that is like like thegood place was all about that,
right, yeah, but similarly right, like when Michael in the good
(20:59):
place not Michael, not Tom Ellisas Michael the archangel, but
Michael the architect, the demonarchitect the good place when
he confronts mortality.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Potential mortality.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, he has like a complete meltdown.
And so there's something reallysatisfying and interesting
about like in in this sort ofdramatic irony, sort of sense of
watching a human beingportraying an immortal coming
(21:34):
through what it means to behuman, and there's something
like really like I find thatparticular vein of storytelling
satisfying and like validating,which I guess is why we do it.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, we the like there's something I was thinking
about last week when I talkedabout how to pierce it must feel
like he's the only real humanbeing.
And so it's interesting because, like we as humans, we can't
(22:08):
actually be in that situation,but we like to imagine what it
would be like and then, like, dothe reverse engineer, imagining
what it would be like tosuddenly have your mortality?
Yeah, and how like?
There's so many stories likethis about this.
There's a there's a fantasticYA series called Sive by Neil
(22:30):
Shusterman, which I think Imight have mentioned to you when
I read the first one, becauseNeil Shusterman is Jewish and it
felt like there was a lot ofJewish thoughts on death and
mortality.
And it's basically human beingsafter they have solved the
problem of death, so like ifsomething happens to you or you
get hit by a bus or something,you become dead-ish, but they
(22:51):
just need to get you to ahospital within like a couple of
hours and they can revive you.
So the only way to truly die isto not be revived, like past
the point of no return, and thatdoesn't happen.
And so, because you can't haveimmortal humans forever, they
have sides which are the peoplewho cull random humans to just
(23:14):
make sure that they maintain thepopulation density, and so
thinking about, like one of thethings that they brought up in
that book was the fact that artwas more meaningful before death
was solved and that you know,there's art and all purpose had
(23:37):
more meant more.
We spent so much time grapplingwith, like the meaning and the
fact that meaning only comesabout because there is an end.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Right, I mean it's like a driving force for a
memento mori, right?
Like remember that you will dieis like a mantra of sorts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
And it's interesting because I actually have the
thought, you know, just looking,projecting forward, knowing,
like, which of these characterswill end up in heaven and have,
and then there's, there's a likea suggestion of crossover with
the good place which we'll getto, which I love, I love, but
that also suggests that thatthis heaven has the same problem
(24:21):
as the good places, heaven, inthat if things are eternal, then
there is no meaning.
I find it like it's fascinating.
And then it's also fascinatingbecause we've never actually
seen a menedial express any ofthese insecurities himself.
We've seen him express theinsecurities about losing God's
favor.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, the actual mortality, you're right.
Yeah, I've not seen that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And so it's interesting to think about that.
Particularly with an angel likenow, they can be eliminated,
which is what happened to Urielwith Azrael's blade.
So that's it, they're gone,there's, there's, there's,
there's no afterlife.
But what does mortality evenmean to an angel, right?
(25:06):
You know what does it mean tohim?
That he knows he's going to goto heaven or hell, right?
So why is that scary to him?
You know, and yeah, Iappreciated that scene very much
, Like props to wellings actingthere Like he was just like yes,
it's great.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Yeah, there was that dawning that same facial.
Yeah, that dawning ofunderstanding.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, and considering how Machiavellian he is, you
think he recognizes being played, but it's also he has been so
single minded Like this is whatI want, this is what I want, for
it's got to be at least athousand of his thousands of
years.
He's forgotten what it actuallymeans in some ways, you know,
(25:57):
because I was thinking also it'sbeen so long since he felt the
fear of mortality.
Because even if he felt it whenhe couldn't be killed, you know
the first 50 years likeeventually it were off, right.
It's just, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating to think aboutand consider like does that
(26:17):
ever, could that ever go away?
I've really appreciated that, Ido.
I want to talk about May's.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, that's where I wanted to go next.
That's where I wanted to gonext to, actually, yes, may's
and Charlotte as like foils ofone another, which clearly
everyone seemed to see that well, except maybe Ella, that like,
if Chloe got real drunk andthought about it too hard, she
wouldn't go through with thewedding.
(26:47):
Like May's clearly thought thatthat that was the case, but so
did Charlotte.
Right, charlotte helped heralong.
I remember just really deeplyenjoying Leslie and Brandt in
like the sweater dress and thepearls the first time I saw this
.
This time, like because I amsavoring it a little more, the
(27:08):
incongruity of it stood out allthe more.
Like whoa, that is just not.
Like where did she even findthat stuff?
Like that was not in May'scloset.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Other thing I love is it when she and Linda about
start fighting?
She takes off her earrings.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Oh, my goodness, I did notice that Linda ended up
with the black water polo player, but that was an interesting
little nod to Linda'sAttractions, mm hmm, her type.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I do want to say something a little gross
about like okay, so she's got todeal with the water polo team
and my immediate thought is likewhat have they done?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
And hopefully it's something like Vandalism and not
raping someone.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah and then okay, so that's icky, so like, okay,
let's assume vandalism, publicurination while they're they're
drinking.
I don't know something.
You know, not a big deal.
You know they had too much todrink after celebrating.
You know their, their theirwinning water polo match, but
then she lets them off.
She's in a position ofauthority If they come do sexual
(28:30):
stuff for her friends, for abachelorette party.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
That ain't okay either.
And let's not forget that theyare undergrads.
Yes, because they're from thewhatever state university yeah,
malibu state.
So these are undergraduate boys, so we've been 22 and younger,
22 and younger.
And these women are all wellmazes, you know thousands of
years old and, like Linda,charlotte, chloe, are all meant
(28:59):
to be in their mid 30s to early40s.
I think Ella's a little younger, maybe like late 20s, early 30s
, but still undergraduates arefrigging babies.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
They are infants, they're toddlers.
I mean, you see them and it'sjust like don't run with
scissors.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
They are not.
They're not sexual conquestsfor adult people.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I do have to say Linda's comments really liked
him.
He smelled like chlorine andbutterscotch, which does not in
any way make it sound like he'smature enough to be with the 30s
or 40s.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I mean, he was a swimmer.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So well, yeah, but chlorine and butterscotch fudge
are not too sense that I wouldput on a silver fox.
Let's say Swimmer, swimmer.
Swimmer.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Maybe the butterscotch fudge is actually
those Werther's originals.
That's like grandma candies.
That's a little in the goldfoil.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Not saying it, but maybe those are just
butterscotch.
They're not butterscotch fudge.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Excuse me so.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
so yeah, and that was when did this episode come out?
I mean, I think it was, oh, I'mnot sure.
It must have been.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
It had to have been post me too, because me too was
2018 maybe, yeah.
And me too, was like late 2017because the season three and the
show started in 16 2016.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, yeah so yeah, because I was.
My first thought was like oh,maybe, maybe they wouldn't have
done this.
Post me too.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But it's actually an interesting point, though,
because, because of the natureof the power, usually in gender
difference, like it is stillsocially acceptable.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
It is still socially acceptable for us to talk about
women kind of objectifying andexploiting men Men?
Yeah, because of the yeah, I'mnot saying it's okay, no, but
there are reasons.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
And I like that's one of the reasons why it bothered
me is that the me too movementis part of what helped me
understand how sexual politicscan negatively affect men and
how often men are raped, butthen by women and so like, and
that's that's one of the thingswhere I was just like I wish
they'd taken a little bit moretime with this, but you know
(31:31):
it's also yeah, yeah like if ithad been like some sort of like
male review company that was oncharges of like public indecency
or something.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where, as opposed to like
undergrads, undergrads, yeah,but you know, like I, actually
this is an episode of.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
there's not a whole lot of episodes from season
three that I go back to, butthis is one of them because I
love the, I love the party, Ilove Lucifer channeling Lucinda.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Because that's what Dan calls him.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
There's also that's the veryfinal scene when Lucifer is like
I need someone I can depend on,and Dan's like the irony is
actually lost on you as well.
Yeah, and then he just keepsgoing until he's like oh, I hear
it now.
Yeah, that's not what he says,but that's there's something
(32:23):
really like the whole series tothis point, like in Lucifer
realizing what is in the way Mm,hmm, you know, yeah, besides
the whole celestial drama, butactually within his
interpersonal skills, what's inthe way?
Speaker 2 (32:44):
The other thing I really like in this episode is
when Dan calls him out, sayinglike you think Chloe is just her
job, like you don't even callher Chloe, you call her the
detective.
And he's like it's endearingwhich it is.
It is endearing, but Dan has anexcellent point Like she's
committed to her job, but that'snot all she is, like there is
more to her and you need to likesee her as a full human being.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
I'm thinking about that and that scene that we,
that we both love, on the beach.
When he's like you deservesomeone better, someone who sees
that every crime scene breaksyour heart and appreciates your
boring middle name and the like,whatever.
When she actually feels trulyseen by him, mm hmm, which is
the moment that they, you knowthat she initiates a kiss, that
(33:28):
she feels the closest to him,when she feels that he does see
him Sorry, he does see herpronouns man.
So it's really it's interestingto bring it back here, because
that that was, I mean, part ofthe reason that she was spurred
to kiss him in that moment wasbecause it was.
It felt unusual, mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
I will say I absolutely love in anything
Pierce can do.
I can do better.
When Dan finds out that Chloeand Pierce have broken up their
epic crime scene, and Lucifer isimmediately on like this is why
you should not take him back,and Dan is like quietly, like
I'm with you, buddy, but I'mstaying out of this.
Yeah, and there's also themoment when Pierce comes to talk
(34:13):
to Chloe while they're in theconference room and Lucifer, dan
and Ella all like come closerto the windows.
They can hear what's happening.
I don't know if you notice that.
It's just like like in lockstep.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
They're all like yep and I'm like I'm in that moment
as well.
But now she's totally DearsPekka.
(34:45):
Yeah, so now she's totally teamPekka.
But maybe it's less actuallyabout the partner and more about
Chloe.
She wants.
Chloe to be happy.
I don't know she.
She clearly is like Charlotte.
What are you doing, Mm?
Hmm, you know, when she seesChloe's face on the bus.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Well, and one of the things she says is like I only
have brothers.
I've always wanted to have asister, I've always wanted to to
plan a bachelorette party.
And that's what what gets Chloeto agree.
Right.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
You're gonna pull the sister card Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
And that's what I'm thinking Like.
She just feels this genuineconnection and sisterly
affection for Chloe and so, likewhen she's rooting for
Deckerstar it's not that shedoesn't like Lucifer, Like she,
she she clearly does, sheclearly does but he's a weirdo,
he is a weirdo.
You know.
And then seeing how he hasupset Chloe, let her down
(35:43):
through the years, like yeahyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
And also Ella was a fan of Pierce's even when from
the beginning.
Even when, like he didn'tdeserve fans.
Yeah, ella was a fan of his, sothat also.
Yeah, okay, all right, that'sresolved in my head, thank, you.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
But there's like what I really like about Ella's
characterization is like so atone point she's like you're
ruining my bachelor party and Idon't remember.
You mean Chloe, so that'sthat's what I said.
That's what I said.
And what's funny is that evenElla's selfishness is for
someone else.
Yeah, you know, it's like it'snot that it's her bachelor party
(36:22):
that she's the center ofattention, it's that her, it's
her bachelor party that she'splanning to have, Right, Like
wonderful time to celebrate withher girlfriends.
Yeah, Although I had to say Iwas like looking at all of them
chugging alcohol in a movingvehicle Like I'm sorry.
(36:43):
In your 20s, maybe these areadult women who have had their
stomach betray them.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
That's funny Because I would be.
They would be having you knowcleaning issues after I was at
the party bus.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Okay, so I'm watching the time and I'm realizing that
time has come, that fluffyfluffy time.
Fluffy fluffy time At the endof, like bringers, what you got
for me today.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
So I got one very small fluff and that is at the
beginning of All Hands on DeckorStar.
When Amanda Deal and Luciferare talking and Lucifer's
wearing that amazing like silkRopes and robe thing and
devastated and you can see hisbelly, she's like, yes, please,
(37:35):
his hair is so straight.
It's like so straight and likeon the one hand I like it looks
good Like they did a great jobwith it, but on the other hand
I'm like like they had to beathis hair into submission
Probably used to like a flatiron or something.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Oh my God, and I'm just like and how long is not
what he would have been doingwhen he was feeling devastated?
Yes, yeah, but Lucifer doesn'thave curly hair.
Yeah, tom Ellis, tom Ellis hascurly hair.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
That's my first one.
My second one, also in AllHands on Deckor Star, is there's
a point where they are heading.
Dan and Lucifer are heading totalk to a suspect and Dan's on
the phone.
He's like we would have beenthere 20 minutes earlier if we
had someone had enforced us tostop for a wardrobe change.
I want to say, like the devilis real.
I got it.
(38:26):
Angels are walking the earth.
They've got wings.
Sure, there's a you knowmillennia year old demon.
Absolutely, angels and humanscan, can procreate with together
.
Sure, got it.
Kane is still alive.
Kane is still alive.
Yes, 20 minutes Stopping.
Change in delay.
(38:47):
Stopping to change would onlytake 20 minutes in Los Angeles.
I'm sorry, it's a bridge toofar.
I am not willing to believethat.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
It would take more than 20 minutes in Baltimore, so
yeah, Like absolutely not, thatis.
That is just completelyunrealistic 10 times the size of
Baltimore.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
And like, even if it were on the way, how long to
take the park and get up to thepenthouse, and then he'd have to
go through his wardrobe figureout what he's going to wear.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Well, actually, if it's Lucifer, maybe they stopped
at a store and he he's wearingnew clothes, hmm, Still would
take more than 20 minutes.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
But Well, because if he's wearing new clothes, that's
even more of a of a wardrobechoice, cause there's like you'd
have to look through everything.
What looks most like thedetective and what he chose
doesn't feel like the masculineversion of Chloe.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
It was like a leather jacket.
Yeah, I mean, she does oftenwear like stupid skinny black
jeans and like a like a shell,and then some sort of jacket
over time.
Okay, that is kind of herstandard.
All right, but the stupidskinny black jeans that just
don't look good on anybodyexcept Lauren German.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, okay so was that those are my two fluff, so
like, yes, I'll swallow it.
It's similar to how I boughteverything in black panther,
with the exception of MartinFreeman's American accent.
Couldn't buy.
It Was not just just I'm sorry,recast or make him MI six
instead of CIA.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
So anyway, yes, mine is.
I don't know why in these twoepisodes and maybe in the maybe
it's just I just noticed it nowbut the costumer is putting
Ellis in these brown suits.
I do not like the brown.
Like they, just I they justdon't look good.
(40:38):
They I mean, of course theylook good because he's wearing
them, but they just they don'thave the same sort of like
luxury.
I feel like Ellis's three piecesuits in the show usually kind
of convey a elitism and a luxurythat is obscene, Right, like
(40:58):
that's the point.
Those brown suits are obscenefor a totally different reason.
It just don't work for me.
I don't know, I do not like thebrown suits and all of a sudden
I'm like understanding why,like the whole world went crazy
when Obama wore that tan suit.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Like brown suits just don't work, no, obama carried
off the tan suit, I will say Imean, okay, one point I would
like to to bring up forcostuming is that someone,
somewhere I don't remember whereI read it, was saying that they
had a theory that the color ofhis suits kind of reflected how
he was feeling.
Oh, and so like he was wearinglike very regularly wearing like
(41:39):
the black suit with like redaccents when he was like on the
devil, and then as he's feelingmore human, he he ends up
wearing like blue and, and youknow, a little softer, and then
he wears, wears kind of brightsuits when he's feeling good,
which I'm like that's a shame,because I hate the bright suits
almost as much as I hate thebrown.
Like when he wears like purpleand like green, I'm just like
(42:00):
I'm sorry, no, this is, it's notEaster to black church, you
just can't carry it off.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I don't know I so.
I thought that was aninteresting.
That is an interesting theory.
I would.
I'm going to pay attention nowto see if there's, if that
carries through and I'm going tosay I wish they had done it
with the Pocket square and yes,Pocket square and tie and stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, even the the the best.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Where's the tie actually?
Speaker 2 (42:29):
That's true.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yeah, the waistcoat or the socks or the shoes, but
like something about that allover brown, like Hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
One last thing before we go.
I do want to make sure Iclarify something I said last
week, which was I was talkingabout Phil Goldstein and how it
was so gross that like he wasstepping out on his wife with
prostitutes and over there, butI didn't make it clear that my
blood was about him stepping outon his wife and not about sex
(42:59):
workers.
Not about sex workers.
The sex workers are fine, youknow, that's the sex work is
work.
Sex work is work, that's right.
But the fact that he wasstepping out on his wife and she
clearly didn't like it, that'swhat I think.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
The blood with Phil Goldstein is.
It is almost more that like hewas, so like I just I'm doing
this rehab so that I can stilldo what I want.
Yeah, that's what's yeah In myhead.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, because it's not even like I actually have an
addiction and this is somethingI'm struggling with.
Yeah, anyway, I just havingrewatched last week, I was just
like, oh, I need to make surethat I'm clear on that, because
I don't want to put that vibeout into the world.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
Sex work is work.
Sex work is work.
Period Full stop yes, all right.
Well, I think we have overthunkit enough.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
We have overthunk it.
We even reached intooverthinking last week.
You know our tendrils go in alldirections.
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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