February 1, 2024 • 37 mins
“Quintessential Deckerstar” & “Devil of My Word” are so packed full of goodness to unpack we had to make notes for our conversation to make sure we didn’t miss anything.
When it comes to storytelling, these episodes provide some deeply satisfying (and tear-jerking) character development, especially for Dan (Kevin Alejandro), Charlotte (Tricia Helfer), and Maze (Lesley-Ann Brandt). When it comes to performance, they absolutely convince us that Tom Ellis actually has wings which can stop bullets, but only with great pain to their owner. And when it comes to female characters’ badassery, these two episodes deliver over and over again with Charlotte, Chloe (Lauren German), Maze, and Ella (Aimee Garcia).
In keeping with our own fascinations, we spend some time talking about mental health and cosmological implications of the storytelling. For the former, we note the comfort these episodes can provide when Lucifer’s devilishness is seen as an allegory for mental illness, truama, or other circumstances one might want to hide or be ashamed of. For the cosmology, we question the veracity of even hardened criminals opening fire on a literal angel and double down on our own shared head cannon that there are ways for Hell to hold on to souls that caused harm and acted badly even when those individuals do not feel guilt about their actions.
Tracie was recovering from a chest cold, and never did remember the final thought she mentioned.
CW: discussion of gendered violence (compliant with that depicted in the show), including a serial abuser holding a knife to his girlfriend’s throat.
Mentioned in this episode
Mr. Snuffalupagus (who everyone can see now)
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I feel the same way.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hey y'all.
I'm here with my sister, emilyGuy Berkin, who does not use a
hyphen.
And I'm here with my sister,tracy Guy Decker, who does use a
hyphen, and together we areLightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And you bet your ass, we areoverthinking it.
(00:45):
That's your sweet Pippi.
We are so gonna overthink ittoday.
These are some juicy, juicyepisodes.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh they're, they're thick.
Yeah, we just spent like almost15 minutes planning out what
we're gonna say.
I think it was more like 20.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, so today we're talking about a 323 and
324 quintessential Decker starand a devil of my word.
And for those of you watching,usually like we both watch and
then we get on and we just kindof have an unscripted
conversation.
We're still unscripted, but wedid take some time to make sure
that we I actually took notes tomake sure that we don't forget
(01:19):
anything because there's so much.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So much, so good, so much.
You just want to suck themarrow out of the bone of these
episodes because they're so good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
So usually we just kind of like see where the
conversation takes us and moreor less stay one episode to the
other.
I think we're going to treatthese two as a whole and focus
on a couple on the on characters, right, like that's how we just
laid it out when we weretalking.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So I actually think maybe Do you want to start with
Charlotte?
Yeah, I think maybe I do.
I do too.
Yeah, I feel her arc in justone of these two episodes
because every time I rewatch Iforget that she's not here.
In Devil of my Word.
(02:06):
I, like you know, I just Iforget that that happens early
on and because her, her shadowis cast such a long or she casts
such a long shadow over a devilof my word.
And we were texting each otherback and forth as we were
watching these episodes and oneof the things that we were
talking about was when she wassitting on the bench at the end
(02:28):
of Quintessential Decker Star,overlooking Los Angeles, like
this is the closest to heavenand a menadil is comforting her,
even though he has justrealized recently how little he
knows, and saying like she'ssaying like it's too little, too
late, even though we have seenher do this incredible thing in
(02:48):
bringing a serial abuser tojustice and protecting a young
woman who has already beenharmed by him.
And she is so badass in all ofthis.
So when they get them theinformation from Richard's and
Wheeler Wheeler and Richard'sold firm, which, with the return
(03:12):
of Dr Kane and and DB Woodside,we're in that hell out of that
super boy, that man.
Yeah, I mean like ZZ Top wasonto something.
Every girl crazy about a sharpdressed man.
He looks so good in that Sharpdressed man is DB Woodside, yeah
, but what's amazing about thatmoment is, well, for one thing,
(03:36):
she is okay with appearinginsane which is her unstable.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's her biggest fear, biggest fear.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And she's also giving her former lover because if you
remember, Ben Wheeler was washer lover right when the goddess
took over her body.
She's giving him good advice.
It's something she knows he'snot going to hear.
She's saying that there areconsequences for what you're
doing here.
Please know that there areconsequences and please start
(04:07):
making changes before it's toolate.
And that's actually really goodadvice that I know Ben Wheeler
is incapable of hearing, but thefact that she used that as her
distraction is also likecompassionate and badass.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, yeah, because it could have been other ways.
She could have just yelled it.
There are so many things.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, she could have just yelled at him, called a
name.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I miss you baby.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, like there are so many things that she could
have done with that distractionand they could have been eco
preserving ways that she couldhave used that distraction?
She did not.
She went for what was going tocause a scene and what was going
to get information out there.
So even if Ben Wheeler didn'thear it, everyone in the office
heard it.
(04:56):
And that's another thing, evenif she can't get through to him.
I mean, it's the reason why Isometimes argue with people on
the internet.
It's not for the person I'marguing with, right, the person
who are listening, right, right.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Or lurking and watching.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
That's amazing.
And then when she confrontsForrest Clay, that's his name,
right?
Yeah, forrest Clay, and I can't, he didn't spell it that way.
But first name Forrest.
I'm just like your name for theKKK Grand Wizard.
Is that what your name is?
Cause if you don't knowanything about Forrest, who is
the reason why Forrest Gump isnamed Forrest, which anyway.
(05:31):
So when she confronts him, likeshe is like ice in her veins,
and even when he gets hiscurrent girlfriend, mia, like
with the knife to her throat,she's scared for Mia but she
continues to maintain that calmand it's like that's all that
(05:56):
type A success was building.
To that moment it feels likeand I just, god, I want to be, I
want to be Charlotte Richard, Iwant to grow up in that episode
you know, I don't want to dieat the end and even the fact
that the reason she dies isbecause she jumps in front of a
menadil, because, not becausehe's an angel, not because he's
(06:18):
God's son, but because he's herfriend.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, because they have a real connection Right and
she doesn't want something badto happen to him and I'm tearing
up.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The whole death scene is really, is really.
I cried watching it again eventhough it was coming Like like
Trisha Helfer did an amazing jobin that like sort of the pain
and the whatever and the fearand the don't leave me, oh my
God.
Yeah, the one like thing thatI'm overthinking is that I think
(06:53):
the angle that she interceptedlike there would have been an
exit wound and a menadil stillwould have taken a bullet I
think Maybe they were far enough.
I don't know, maybe Pierce wasfar enough away.
I don't, I don't actually knowa whole lot about ballistics, I
just like or anything.
But I just, unfortunately, justfrom reading the news you know
(07:18):
that you know sometimes, likethe teacher who tried to shield
their students and the studentsstill, you know like those
things, unfortunately, I knowfrom just reading the news.
So anyway, I'm willing to giveit, because it was important
storytelling moment that shetook the bullet for bullets for
him.
But I did have an overthinkingmoment with it, like right there
(07:38):
.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So there is one thing that I also want to mention
about that scene before Pierceshows up is when she's saying
like, yes, we got Forrest Clay,but it's too little, too late.
He hurt all of those otherwomen and I got goosebumps when
a menadil said but he's nevergoing to hurt another person
(08:00):
again and you are responsiblefor that.
You are responsible for makingsure that he can't hurt anyone
ever again, and we can't ask formore than that.
And that gets a little bit intolike we talk a lot about the
parallels with the good place.
One of my favorite moments inthe good place is when they
quote oh gosh, is it Tolstoy?
(08:21):
He's like the only time we haveis now.
It's the only time we havepower.
I'm excited but it's, it'sRussian.
Now is the only time thatmatters, it's the only time we
have any power and I, like, Ireally appreciate that because,
like, it is counterproductivenot useless counterproductive to
ruminate on what happened inthe past or worry about what's
(08:45):
coming in the future.
Just in the now, with theinformation you have now, with
the abilities you have now,doing what you can to make
things right is all that we canask of ourselves or anyone else
and I got like literally likegoosebumps, like you're standing
up on my arms, because I wasjust like I need to hear this.
(09:08):
I love this message,particularly since I can
completely comprehendCharlotte's overwhelm and she's
not overwhelmed at her ownprospects of going to hell, it's
more, she's thinking about allthose women who were hurt in
between, when Joanne Foley waskilled and now and then also,
like I'm imagining, like the,the guy who went down for Joanne
(09:31):
Foley's death.
Oh my God, his story isheartbreaking, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
You know I also was moved by that exchange and I
actually want to draw outspecifically that Menendiel
didn't just say he won't hurtanyone else, he said he won't
hurt another woman.
And the gendered piece of itactually feels significant to me
because the way that thisvillain was portrayed was very
(10:02):
much a gendered, misogynist,sexist.
It was misogyny specifically inhis, in his villainy.
You know, not just villainy,but specifically gendered and
misogynistic.
And so the fact that Menendielactually named it that way, that
he won't hurt another woman,because you did that Like for me
(10:24):
at least that actually mattered.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It does.
It also kind of hits withsomething.
There are times when there areproblems that we need to face
that I feel like certain peopleare uniquely suited to, and
Charlotte is uniquely suited tothis.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yep as a very powerful woman who has sort of
in typical you know, in typicalsocietal standards sort of male
energy with the power that shecommands.
So, yeah, I agree, I agree I'mgoing to move us along because I
know we have a hard stop and wehave a lot of things to talk
(11:03):
about.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
There's so much to talk about.
Okay, should we talk aboutLucifer and Chloe next?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, so those are often the things that I think
people remember about theseepisodes.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Definitely, yeah, yeah.
So I think, as we've saidbefore, like in the rewatch,
with the savoring, like noticingdifferent things, the
creepiness of him trying torecreate their greatest hits
like really came through morestrongly for me in this more
savoring of these episodes, likeit was weird and cute and
(11:35):
quirky.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
In my memory it's very little cute about it in
this rewatch, it's just the onlyone that doesn't make me like
and even like the first watch,because I'm, if anyone is ever
going to die of embarrassment,if embarrassment is ever going
to be a fatality, that will beme.
And the only one that I don'tfeel that way about is when he's
(11:57):
playing piano, as the only onewhere I'm just like okay, that's
kind of cute, like you know,recreating that everything else
is like oh, oh, please stop, ithurts, stop, stop, stop.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, I actually was grateful for Trixie
, for Trixie's voice to be like,yeah, mom's right, this is
weird, it's not fun.
It's not fun, like that was.
I was grateful for her voicethere.
And then, in terms of liketheir interaction, like we see
some important realizations fromeach of them in these two,
right, and Chloe says out loud Isaid yes because of Lucifer, I
(12:33):
said yes to Pierce because ofLucifer and I also said no
because of Lucifer, like sayingthat out loud, like we've seen
her desire him, want more.
We have seen that.
But it's been something that sheseems to have been afraid to
actually speak out loud, I thinkin the past, but she does say
it in this episode, which Ithink is really interesting and
(12:54):
significant and powerful, giventhe totality of these two
episodes.
And then the realization thathe has when he shows up at the
scene at Forest Clay's house andsays to her like you caught two
killers and it didn't have myhelp, which means you have
(13:15):
chosen me because you don't needme.
Yeah, which is just exactly theright kind of pathos Just
absolutely melt, just puddle.
Yes, completely.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And it's puddle.
The other thing that I foundmyself thinking about was when
he says I can't show you, so allI can do is tell you I am the
devil.
And, like you know, she doesn'tbelieve him, but she hears him
and the immediate acceptance.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
The ending not to me, with her hand on his cheek,
allows him to stop arguing withher right Cause there's been
this like I feel, like where hestarted, I need to tell you.
And then you know, like I feellike there could easily have
been like no, no, really no, youhave to believe me.
(14:11):
But when she says not to me,not to me, yeah, and then with
her hand on his cheek, it just Idon't know, it just softens it
and allows it to be true, eventhough it is also true that he's
the devil.
Like I don't know, there wassomething really just so sweet.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It reminded me again of how I feel like,
intentionally andunintentionally, the show plays
with the idea of him, of himbeing the devil, as a metaphor
for mental illness, like if hewere to like, trying to like
look, I'm bad news, I'm like,you know, you don't want to get
involved with me because I'mschizophrenic or I'm bipolar.
(14:50):
Just for her, or anything likethat, I'm not an okay person.
And she says not to me, youknow, and that's that kind of
acceptance is just, is lovelyand exactly what you would want
to see from someone who revealsa trauma, whether it's mental
illness or like there.
(15:11):
I have known individuals whohave experienced serious trauma,
particularly as children, whointernalize it as and that means
I'm bad, and so to be able tosay like this doesn't change
anything.
You are who you are to me andthat's just, it's lovely.
(15:31):
And I think part of the reasonwhy, you see, I see on Reddit a
lot of people talking about how,like this show got me through
serious depression and like thisshow helped me figure out ways
to accept myself.
And I'm like, of course it did.
It's amazing, and that scene isone of the things that's so
(15:54):
poignant about it is that well,I mean.
First of all, there's Tom Ellis, who we can never get enough of
how good an actor he is, but hecan't show her his true face,
as in his devil face.
But he is showing her his trueface emotionally.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you know I didn't think of this
before.
This is not in my notes.
But the other thing that's kindof interesting about that scene
, when she says, not like she'slike wearing crazy clothes
because she's been up for twodays, and like she's just like
just there's something wild andlike atypical about her energy
(16:30):
in that moment too, likethinking about mental illness or
things that we sort of traumaor things that we don't share.
She is also in a wild state.
In a way she's working throughit.
She just caught another bad guy, but she's in a totally wild
state.
They made sure we saw that withthe multiple jackets that don't
(16:51):
make any sense together in thehair and whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Well, that was something I noticed because,
well, I noticed ponytails a lotbecause I'm always trying for
that slick ponytail where it'snot so tight that I feel like it
looks like I'm a bunhead andtrying to dance, but slick, so
it's not like Bernie Sanders,like tendrils coming out.
I noticed her hair quite a bitand that's very much shows like,
(17:18):
okay, I just pulled it back andsomething and got it.
Then the next episode you seeher when she's completely in
control.
Her hair is tied back.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
She's back in her uniform of skinny jeans and a
shell and a jacket.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Her hair is yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Anyway, that was like I didn't see that on the way.
Also, when she's back in heruniform not literal she also
says enough with the metaphors,even though she was just so open
about them.
We're seeing their clues of howshe's going to react, or her
mental state and openness.
(17:53):
Then that leads into my mostrewatch scene of the entire six
seasons.
I have to remind myself thatthey were in front of a green
screen, I know.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Let's say what the scene is in case anyone's
confused.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Tom Ellis does not get back have wings.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's very painfully being shot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It's being painfully shot yeah, it's just so good, so
convenient, that the bulletknocked Chloe out Again.
She conveniently is like it'ssort of like snuff a lot against
me straight when we were kids.
I know the grown-ups see himnow, but when we were kids
(18:37):
nobody could see him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Nobody saw him, except for Big Bird.
Okay, okay, I have to okay.
What happened to the bullet?
Did her bullet?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
necklace, stop the bullet.
No, she was wearing Kevlar, shewas.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay, that wasn't clear to me.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, when he's like he sort of goes to touch the
bullet and there's no blood andshe pulls her blouse down.
She's wearing Kevlar and thebullet the bullet's in the,
which is a little bitunbelievable.
I went to high school with thewoman who is now the chief of
police of Baltimore County, andso there were.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I represent.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
She's pretty awesome.
She is pretty awesome, and sothere were, and she's like four
feet tall and like a badass.
She's a little taller than thatbut she is a badass.
But anyway she can't we.
We ran into each otherprofessionally while I was
working at the museum.
She was still in Baltimore cityand she was wearing a bullet
per vest under her, you know,like button, white button, men's
(19:35):
style shirt, and like I knewshe was wearing a vest, Cause
it's like and that's that's like.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
As many times as I've seen that scene, I've never
understood what stopped thebullet cause it doesn't look.
It's not clear to me thatthat's Kevlar.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So and that's meant.
I think maybe there is bodyarmor that's less bulky than
what my, what my former highschool classmate, was wearing
that day.
But I think that that's one ofthose things I just have to like
just go with it, trace, just gowith it.
Just go with it, because I butlet's talk about that scene.
Yeah, yeah, that scene.
(20:12):
So, like badass, chloe Stand infront of the you're going to
have to shoot me yeah, I don'twant to die and I can't before I
stop you and then shoot him,like God bless, with, like you
know, 15, 20 guys with gunspointed at them.
Amazing, amazing, she's amazing.
And then this this is anoverthinking moment that, like
(20:35):
still bothers me to this day thewings come out to protect and
all those goons continue toshoot at the angel, like they're
looking at right, like, and wayback in the beginning we saw
that the like, the wings like,made people go crazy because it
(20:57):
was proof of divinity and we'veI've done some, you know, mental
furniture rearranging.
Those wings came directly fromGod, these were self actualized,
so that's maybe why they're notquite as powerful, but still
there's no hesitation Like justoh, skinny, let's just have a
hard time, like even these, likehardened criminals, wouldn't be
(21:18):
like uh boss, maybe weshouldn't shoot an angel, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, he, he does it.
One point says go on, shootLike, he does like he says
finish it.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's before the wings have come out.
Oh, okay, that's when thebullets have been exchanged
between Pierce and Chloe and shefalls back and Lucifer's
holding her.
He's like how is this happening?
This can't be happening.
Lucifer says that and Piercesays finish it.
Well, he's like down stairs andthen the wings come out to
(21:49):
protect her and I just, I don'tknow.
It bothers me Although althoughon this rewatch cause I had
that in mind when Pierce talksto the bald guy who ends up
getting captured, and the guysays glad you're back and
whatever they have that wholething, and the, the goon, the
(22:10):
minion, says never seen youscared before, like maybe they
know, mm, mm, mm, which I don't,I don't know, I don't know, but
that that little piece doesbother me a little, a little bit
, a little bit.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But the the like you.
You feel like Tom Ellis isactually in agonizing pain and
emotional pain because he's he'safraid that she's dead.
And between that and then whenhe comes through the window with
the wings, with that um bloodywings, with that dead weather
(22:50):
song playing.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
That used to be on my workout.
That was on my workout mix fora while.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So I know that song really really well.
And I was like oh yeah, Ididn't remember this.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Like your mother Anyway let's let's talk about
Pierce for a minute.
So I think I was telling youbefore we started recording that
I wish they had shown some ofhow dangerous he was while he
and Chloe were together, becauseI think that would have been a
richer vein for storytellingthan the the straight love
(23:24):
triangle, Cause the lovetriangle was just about jealousy
.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And it never, and it was, and never quite Never
gelled.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, that's the word .
And it's particularly like onceDan learns that Pierce is a
center man and and then Chloe'slike I almost married him.
That level of like menace fromhim would have been a much
(23:52):
richer and more interestingtopic, I think, than just the
straight jealousy Cause, likeI'd be okay with the jealousy
was there, if we're a little bitmore cognizant of how dangerous
he was because he and now someof that I can see, because the
way they write Celeste Jills,they just don't get it when it
comes to that sort of thing,because Lucifer and Pierce do
(24:15):
have that odd connection witheach other.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
A sort of frenemy thing going on yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
But then that again would be of the more interesting
love triangle.
I agree so.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I've said that before , but also, though, in defense
of our story tell.
I mean it could have beeninteresting, sort of in the
dramatic irony sense that asviewers we would be seeing his
duplicity, yeah, while it washappening.
In defense of our showrunners,I wonder if it would have
changed the way we felt aboutChloe If we, if we, if during
(24:51):
the romance we genuinely we feltmore strongly that she was
being duped, which I think wouldnot be desirable from sort of
the showrunner perspective Storypart.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, that's true.
That's a good point.
It does make it clear, likewhen she calls him and he's
saying, I do love you, it makesit much more clear how incapable
of love he is, because what hethinks of as love is like is
clearly not an action.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I mean the fact that he could be like he shot her and
was like finish it.
No, finish it yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, even the fact that he was willing to shoot
this person that she cares aboutdeeply in front of her, like I
cannot imagine being OK withthat when it's not, you know, a
situation where someone'sactually posing a credible
danger, right, you know, thereare times when I can see that
happening and it beingjustifiable, but even then it
(25:52):
would be justifiable, but eventhen it would be wrenching, like
I know I'm hurting this personI love.
So, yeah, I did appreciate thatChloe was convinced because he
pretended to tear up overCharlotte, yep, and she's like
that's not him.
So she does know him wellenough to know.
(26:12):
Like that's just not how heoperates, that's not how he
shows emotion, nothing.
Yeah, we don't have a whole lotof time.
I want to make sure we talkabout Dan and Mays.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Agreed Really quickly though, because I think this is
like the redditor is the thingthat you pointed out the dying
scene, pierce's dying scene.
The conversation between thetwo of them implies the question
that you see on Reddit all thetime like what about people who
genuinely have no remorse?
Do they in fact?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
go to heaven?
Do they go to heaven becausethey don't feel bad?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, and there seems to be an implication of
that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Because when Pierce knows he's dying, he says well,
I still don't feel bad aboutanything I did, so I'm going to
go to heaven.
And Lucifer says, oh, you feelit deep down.
And so there's.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right, and so the message that our showrunners
were giving us with that wasthat there actually there is
this deep understanding betweenthese two people, that they are
mirrors in a certain way.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, and it happens immediately because Lucifer
Right, even while he's saying it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
even while he's saying it, his eyes have started
Right.
So there is there.
So that is the point that theywere making.
And then, inadvertently, theymade this other point, this
other cosmological point, whichI think I still think that you
are right that there is at leastroom within the cosmology that
they've created that someone whoA Hitler, or yeah, yeah, or A
(27:38):
whole pot Right, right, wouldnot in fact end up in heaven,
despite having no Having noremorse whatsoever.
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And I think that was a specific like I'm talking to
you, cain, not Exactly.
This is how it works, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Agreed, agreed, all right.
So, now let's talk about Danand Mays.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, poor Dan and poor Charlotte.
They got one week together.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I mean, that's about how long it has to have been
since the last episode.
They really do care about eachother.
You can tell that she caresabout him because he's shown up
in her hell loop.
I do want to say something alsoabout her.
Poor children are going to bevery traumatized by the loss of
their mother after having losther in another way.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Multiple times, multiple times.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, and this is the only time we see Charlotte as
herself, with her children, isin this hell loop.
We don't even know if she'sgotten to see them since she's
been back in her own body.
Right, it's heartbreaking.
I love that Charlotte's wearingthe waffle.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
The waffle bracelet, bracelet, which is so goofy and
so Dan and sweet Like.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
What I like about it is that because everyone's like
are you sure about that?
In terms of the gifts, like, Iguess.
So, whereas they really likeeach other for who they are, she
likes that he's a goofball andhe's the waffle king and he
likes that she is so harddriving and who she is, and so I
(29:18):
really appreciate that.
It's showing that you don'thave to pretend to be anyone
other than who you are for theperson who really loves you.
Just a reiteration of that.
And then the way that he isresponding and acting all
throughout the devil of my wordis so relatable, every aspect of
(29:40):
it is so relatable that he'slike I have to work, I totally
get that, and even when Pierceis like I'd be in the same
position, so that's fine.
Just that he's barely holdingonto his anger and needs other
people redirect him when hisanger is getting in a position
(30:01):
where bad things could happen.
And then thinking about thefact that immediately end of
this episode, we know that oneof the emotional supports, two
of his main emotional supports,are going to go away for a month
his ex-wife and his daughterand so he's going to be dealing
with this awful heartbreak andanger and sense of betrayal.
(30:24):
And Amenadiel's not back yet.
Oh, and Amenadiel, you're right.
Three of his main emotionalsupports.
It's just poor Dan.
Yeah, I mean.
And what a character Arke's had, because we met him as a
corrupt cop, yeah.
And here he is now as someonewe're rooting for.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And Mays, mays, oh my goodness.
So I said I felt like shestopped spiraling when she's
trying to like catfish or Idon't know if you'd call it that
, but trick Amenadiel.
But he immediately gives her ahug and says you know, I will
always be there for you.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And you were saying it's more of a pause rather than
a stop of the spiraling or slowdown or something Slow down.
Yeah, I feel like that.
Yeah, I feel like when shebelieves Linda is in danger.
That's the true shift.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's the.
She finally starts tounderstand that people do see
her.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, and not just the demon.
Well, part of her spiral isthat she felt she had nothing on
earth, which is why she wantedto go back to hell.
And so having Amenadiel say andshow in like by embracing her,
that she actually does have atleast something on earth.
So I think that was what thesort of pattern interrupt was,
(31:54):
and then the idea that she couldlose Linda.
And in a forever kind of wayyeah, and knowing that she was
at least in part responsible.
You know because of her.
You know because if Pierce hadin fact threatened Linda, it
would have been to get to Maze.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Oh yeah, I will say maybe this is fluff, but when
Linda says you look like youfought 10 people and ran a mile,
she says like you don't need tosay it, and she's like there's
12 people and four miles andit's been a while since I
considered myself a runner butI'm like a mile's, not that far.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I mean in what she's wearing after fighting some
people?
True.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
True, but I also I appreciate Maze saying like
actions are easy for me, I needto say the words, because
they're hard.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
That was powerful dialogue, honestly, yeah, cause
I think that, like that, I needto be brave in the way that's
brave for me.
I mean, to your point aboutthis helping people like that
sort of knowing where yourbravery is as opposed to what
you know, that felt really,really powerful and important to
(33:12):
me.
Yeah, all right, so we're outof time?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, I'm gonna name A couple of fluff.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
All right, I'm just gonna quickly name that.
It was really fun to be fakedout with Ella and the phone by
the stories, by the writers,like I was faked out, I was like
wait, I didn't remember Ellabetraying them, being betraying
them.
No, it's because she didn'tCause she didn't.
Yeah, that was really reallyfun and well done and Amy Garcia
nailed it and then the writersnailed it.
(33:40):
Well done.
That's my little fluff, whatyou got, okay.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So Chloe is a little bit all disheveled because she
stayed up all night working onthe forest clay thing.
Then they get forest clay.
She's having the conversation.
So she's been up for you know,24 hours At least, or more.
At that point, yeah, it's like36.
At that point Charlotte dies.
The next, next episode we seeit's the morning and she's still
(34:06):
wearing the same clothes.
Yeah, so Chloe's been up for twodays straight and then they
have everything that happens andit's like another night and
morning where we see she has notgone too bad, so she has been
awake Now.
It's one of those where, like Iwould, I would be babbling non
set, like I'm not capable ofbeing awake for 72 hours
(34:28):
straight, just can't do it.
Now, to be fair, that alsospeaks to the mindset she's in.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, and the adrenaline yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That, to me, is it was just interesting, cause I
didn't notice it first.
Couple of times I've watchedthese episodes, but I definitely
was just like did she get anapp somewhere, cause she's got
to be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, so, and then one last thing she mentioned
what you said about the suits.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, and I have.
I have another quick thing, ifwe can maybe make it happen.
So yeah, last time, in our lastepisode, we talked about the
suits.
He starts this episode, thesetwo episodes, in a brown suit,
which I don't like, but then hemoves into the black suit with
the white shirt and the red, thered pocket square, pocket
square.
Yeah, you were saying that thatwas that there was a theory
that that was sort of hisdevilishness, and then you noted
(35:17):
that he's trying to recreatetheir greatest hit.
So of course, that's why he'swearing the black suit with the
red, which I really like.
Well done.
And then the other thing.
So two other things maybe.
I'll remember both of them.
One is when, at the crime scenethe next day, when Lucifer
finds the feather and then istelling Pierce cause, we don't
(35:38):
know yet oh, yeah, yeah, yeah wedon't know yet and he's like
there's this theory, but hedoesn't actually say the word
self-actualization.
It's like I like.
I backed it up and watched itagain.
I was like he didn't actuallyfinish his book, yeah yeah, but
like maybe it ended on thecutting room floor because it's
written as if Pierce understandswhat the husband said, so that
(36:00):
that like bugged me a little bit, yeah, and the I lost whatever
the other thing was.
So it was so fluffy, it justfloated away, it just.
Yeah, you can't help thetendrils, it just totally, it
just totally floated away andI'm like darn, I'm disappointed
(36:22):
You're going to remember it assoon as we get off Zoom.
You're right, I am, I totallyam, yeah maybe I'll put it in
there, you can do a coda whereit's just you.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I can put it in there .
Hey, I thought of it.
I think that would be cool, atleast for our 12, 15, 15
subscribers.
We love you all.
Thank you for subscribing.
Okay.
I'm a minute late for my nextmeeting, so I better get going,
okay.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Okay, see you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetent Doorcom, Licensed under Creative
Commons by Attribution 4.0License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(37:13):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep over thinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I feel the same way.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Hey y'all.
I'm here with my sister, emilyGuy Berkin, who does not use a
hyphen.
And I'm here with my sister,tracy Guy Decker, who does use a
hyphen, and together we areLightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And you bet your ass, we areoverthinking it.
(00:45):
That's your sweet Pippi.
We are so gonna overthink ittoday.
These are some juicy, juicyepisodes.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Oh they're, they're thick.
Yeah, we just spent like almost15 minutes planning out what
we're gonna say.
I think it was more like 20.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, so today we're talking about a 323 and
324 quintessential Decker starand a devil of my word.
And for those of you watching,usually like we both watch and
then we get on and we just kindof have an unscripted
conversation.
We're still unscripted, but wedid take some time to make sure
that we I actually took notes tomake sure that we don't forget
(01:19):
anything because there's so much.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
So much, so good, so much.
You just want to suck themarrow out of the bone of these
episodes because they're so good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
So usually we just kind of like see where the
conversation takes us and moreor less stay one episode to the
other.
I think we're going to treatthese two as a whole and focus
on a couple on the on characters, right, like that's how we just
laid it out when we weretalking.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So I actually think maybe Do you want to start with
Charlotte?
Yeah, I think maybe I do.
I do too.
Yeah, I feel her arc in justone of these two episodes
because every time I rewatch Iforget that she's not here.
In Devil of my Word.
(02:06):
I, like you know, I just Iforget that that happens early
on and because her, her shadowis cast such a long or she casts
such a long shadow over a devilof my word.
And we were texting each otherback and forth as we were
watching these episodes and oneof the things that we were
talking about was when she wassitting on the bench at the end
(02:28):
of Quintessential Decker Star,overlooking Los Angeles, like
this is the closest to heavenand a menadil is comforting her,
even though he has justrealized recently how little he
knows, and saying like she'ssaying like it's too little, too
late, even though we have seenher do this incredible thing in
(02:48):
bringing a serial abuser tojustice and protecting a young
woman who has already beenharmed by him.
And she is so badass in all ofthis.
So when they get them theinformation from Richard's and
Wheeler Wheeler and Richard'sold firm, which, with the return
(03:12):
of Dr Kane and and DB Woodside,we're in that hell out of that
super boy, that man.
Yeah, I mean like ZZ Top wasonto something.
Every girl crazy about a sharpdressed man.
He looks so good in that Sharpdressed man is DB Woodside, yeah
, but what's amazing about thatmoment is, well, for one thing,
(03:36):
she is okay with appearinginsane which is her unstable.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
That's her biggest fear, biggest fear.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And she's also giving her former lover because if you
remember, Ben Wheeler was washer lover right when the goddess
took over her body.
She's giving him good advice.
It's something she knows he'snot going to hear.
She's saying that there areconsequences for what you're
doing here.
Please know that there areconsequences and please start
(04:07):
making changes before it's toolate.
And that's actually really goodadvice that I know Ben Wheeler
is incapable of hearing, but thefact that she used that as her
distraction is also likecompassionate and badass.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, yeah, because it could have been other ways.
She could have just yelled it.
There are so many things.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, she could have just yelled at him, called a
name.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I miss you baby.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, like there are so many things that she could
have done with that distractionand they could have been eco
preserving ways that she couldhave used that distraction?
She did not.
She went for what was going tocause a scene and what was going
to get information out there.
So even if Ben Wheeler didn'thear it, everyone in the office
heard it.
(04:56):
And that's another thing, evenif she can't get through to him.
I mean, it's the reason why Isometimes argue with people on
the internet.
It's not for the person I'marguing with, right, the person
who are listening, right, right.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Or lurking and watching.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
That's amazing.
And then when she confrontsForrest Clay, that's his name,
right?
Yeah, forrest Clay, and I can't, he didn't spell it that way.
But first name Forrest.
I'm just like your name for theKKK Grand Wizard.
Is that what your name is?
Cause if you don't knowanything about Forrest, who is
the reason why Forrest Gump isnamed Forrest, which anyway.
(05:31):
So when she confronts him, likeshe is like ice in her veins,
and even when he gets hiscurrent girlfriend, mia, like
with the knife to her throat,she's scared for Mia but she
continues to maintain that calmand it's like that's all that
(05:56):
type A success was building.
To that moment it feels likeand I just, god, I want to be, I
want to be Charlotte Richard, Iwant to grow up in that episode
you know, I don't want to dieat the end and even the fact
that the reason she dies isbecause she jumps in front of a
menadil, because, not becausehe's an angel, not because he's
(06:18):
God's son, but because he's herfriend.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, because they have a real connection Right and
she doesn't want something badto happen to him and I'm tearing
up.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The whole death scene is really, is really.
I cried watching it again eventhough it was coming Like like
Trisha Helfer did an amazing jobin that like sort of the pain
and the whatever and the fearand the don't leave me, oh my
God.
Yeah, the one like thing thatI'm overthinking is that I think
(06:53):
the angle that she interceptedlike there would have been an
exit wound and a menadil stillwould have taken a bullet I
think Maybe they were far enough.
I don't know, maybe Pierce wasfar enough away.
I don't, I don't actually knowa whole lot about ballistics, I
just like or anything.
But I just, unfortunately, justfrom reading the news you know
(07:18):
that you know sometimes, likethe teacher who tried to shield
their students and the studentsstill, you know like those
things, unfortunately, I knowfrom just reading the news.
So anyway, I'm willing to giveit, because it was important
storytelling moment that shetook the bullet for bullets for
him.
But I did have an overthinkingmoment with it, like right there
(07:38):
.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So there is one thing that I also want to mention
about that scene before Pierceshows up is when she's saying
like, yes, we got Forrest Clay,but it's too little, too late.
He hurt all of those otherwomen and I got goosebumps when
a menadil said but he's nevergoing to hurt another person
(08:00):
again and you are responsiblefor that.
You are responsible for makingsure that he can't hurt anyone
ever again, and we can't ask formore than that.
And that gets a little bit intolike we talk a lot about the
parallels with the good place.
One of my favorite moments inthe good place is when they
quote oh gosh, is it Tolstoy?
(08:21):
He's like the only time we haveis now.
It's the only time we havepower.
I'm excited but it's, it'sRussian.
Now is the only time thatmatters, it's the only time we
have any power and I, like, Ireally appreciate that because,
like, it is counterproductivenot useless counterproductive to
ruminate on what happened inthe past or worry about what's
(08:45):
coming in the future.
Just in the now, with theinformation you have now, with
the abilities you have now,doing what you can to make
things right is all that we canask of ourselves or anyone else
and I got like literally likegoosebumps, like you're standing
up on my arms, because I wasjust like I need to hear this.
(09:08):
I love this message,particularly since I can
completely comprehendCharlotte's overwhelm and she's
not overwhelmed at her ownprospects of going to hell, it's
more, she's thinking about allthose women who were hurt in
between, when Joanne Foley waskilled and now and then also,
like I'm imagining, like the,the guy who went down for Joanne
(09:31):
Foley's death.
Oh my God, his story isheartbreaking, yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
You know I also was moved by that exchange and I
actually want to draw outspecifically that Menendiel
didn't just say he won't hurtanyone else, he said he won't
hurt another woman.
And the gendered piece of itactually feels significant to me
because the way that thisvillain was portrayed was very
(10:02):
much a gendered, misogynist,sexist.
It was misogyny specifically inhis, in his villainy.
You know, not just villainy,but specifically gendered and
misogynistic.
And so the fact that Menendielactually named it that way, that
he won't hurt another woman,because you did that Like for me
(10:24):
at least that actually mattered.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It does.
It also kind of hits withsomething.
There are times when there areproblems that we need to face
that I feel like certain peopleare uniquely suited to, and
Charlotte is uniquely suited tothis.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Yep as a very powerful woman who has sort of
in typical you know, in typicalsocietal standards sort of male
energy with the power that shecommands.
So, yeah, I agree, I agree I'mgoing to move us along because I
know we have a hard stop and wehave a lot of things to talk
(11:03):
about.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
There's so much to talk about.
Okay, should we talk aboutLucifer and Chloe next?
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, so those are often the things that I think
people remember about theseepisodes.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Definitely, yeah, yeah.
So I think, as we've saidbefore, like in the rewatch,
with the savoring, like noticingdifferent things, the
creepiness of him trying torecreate their greatest hits
like really came through morestrongly for me in this more
savoring of these episodes, likeit was weird and cute and
(11:35):
quirky.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
In my memory it's very little cute about it in
this rewatch, it's just the onlyone that doesn't make me like
and even like the first watch,because I'm, if anyone is ever
going to die of embarrassment,if embarrassment is ever going
to be a fatality, that will beme.
And the only one that I don'tfeel that way about is when he's
(11:57):
playing piano, as the only onewhere I'm just like okay, that's
kind of cute, like you know,recreating that everything else
is like oh, oh, please stop, ithurts, stop, stop, stop.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, I actually was grateful for Trixie
, for Trixie's voice to be like,yeah, mom's right, this is
weird, it's not fun.
It's not fun, like that was.
I was grateful for her voicethere.
And then, in terms of liketheir interaction, like we see
some important realizations fromeach of them in these two,
right, and Chloe says out loud Isaid yes because of Lucifer, I
(12:33):
said yes to Pierce because ofLucifer and I also said no
because of Lucifer, like sayingthat out loud, like we've seen
her desire him, want more.
We have seen that.
But it's been something that sheseems to have been afraid to
actually speak out loud, I thinkin the past, but she does say
it in this episode, which Ithink is really interesting and
(12:54):
significant and powerful, giventhe totality of these two
episodes.
And then the realization thathe has when he shows up at the
scene at Forest Clay's house andsays to her like you caught two
killers and it didn't have myhelp, which means you have
(13:15):
chosen me because you don't needme.
Yeah, which is just exactly theright kind of pathos Just
absolutely melt, just puddle.
Yes, completely.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And it's puddle.
The other thing that I foundmyself thinking about was when
he says I can't show you, so allI can do is tell you I am the
devil.
And, like you know, she doesn'tbelieve him, but she hears him
and the immediate acceptance.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
The ending not to me, with her hand on his cheek,
allows him to stop arguing withher right Cause there's been
this like I feel, like where hestarted, I need to tell you.
And then you know, like I feellike there could easily have
been like no, no, really no, youhave to believe me.
(14:11):
But when she says not to me,not to me, yeah, and then with
her hand on his cheek, it just Idon't know, it just softens it
and allows it to be true, eventhough it is also true that he's
the devil.
Like I don't know, there wassomething really just so sweet.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
It reminded me again of how I feel like,
intentionally andunintentionally, the show plays
with the idea of him, of himbeing the devil, as a metaphor
for mental illness, like if hewere to like, trying to like
look, I'm bad news, I'm like,you know, you don't want to get
involved with me because I'mschizophrenic or I'm bipolar.
(14:50):
Just for her, or anything likethat, I'm not an okay person.
And she says not to me, youknow, and that's that kind of
acceptance is just, is lovelyand exactly what you would want
to see from someone who revealsa trauma, whether it's mental
illness or like there.
(15:11):
I have known individuals whohave experienced serious trauma,
particularly as children, whointernalize it as and that means
I'm bad, and so to be able tosay like this doesn't change
anything.
You are who you are to me andthat's just, it's lovely.
(15:31):
And I think part of the reasonwhy, you see, I see on Reddit a
lot of people talking about how,like this show got me through
serious depression and like thisshow helped me figure out ways
to accept myself.
And I'm like, of course it did.
It's amazing, and that scene isone of the things that's so
(15:54):
poignant about it is that well,I mean.
First of all, there's Tom Ellis, who we can never get enough of
how good an actor he is, but hecan't show her his true face,
as in his devil face.
But he is showing her his trueface emotionally.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you know I didn't think of this
before.
This is not in my notes.
But the other thing that's kindof interesting about that scene
, when she says, not like she'slike wearing crazy clothes
because she's been up for twodays, and like she's just like
just there's something wild andlike atypical about her energy
(16:30):
in that moment too, likethinking about mental illness or
things that we sort of traumaor things that we don't share.
She is also in a wild state.
In a way she's working throughit.
She just caught another bad guy, but she's in a totally wild
state.
They made sure we saw that withthe multiple jackets that don't
(16:51):
make any sense together in thehair and whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Well, that was something I noticed because,
well, I noticed ponytails a lotbecause I'm always trying for
that slick ponytail where it'snot so tight that I feel like it
looks like I'm a bunhead andtrying to dance, but slick, so
it's not like Bernie Sanders,like tendrils coming out.
I noticed her hair quite a bitand that's very much shows like,
(17:18):
okay, I just pulled it back andsomething and got it.
Then the next episode you seeher when she's completely in
control.
Her hair is tied back.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
She's back in her uniform of skinny jeans and a
shell and a jacket.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Her hair is yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Anyway, that was like I didn't see that on the way.
Also, when she's back in heruniform not literal she also
says enough with the metaphors,even though she was just so open
about them.
We're seeing their clues of howshe's going to react, or her
mental state and openness.
(17:53):
Then that leads into my mostrewatch scene of the entire six
seasons.
I have to remind myself thatthey were in front of a green
screen, I know.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Let's say what the scene is in case anyone's
confused.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Tom Ellis does not get back have wings.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's very painfully being shot.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
It's being painfully shot yeah, it's just so good, so
convenient, that the bulletknocked Chloe out Again.
She conveniently is like it'ssort of like snuff a lot against
me straight when we were kids.
I know the grown-ups see himnow, but when we were kids
(18:37):
nobody could see him.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Nobody saw him, except for Big Bird.
Okay, okay, I have to okay.
What happened to the bullet?
Did her bullet?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
necklace, stop the bullet.
No, she was wearing Kevlar, shewas.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay, that wasn't clear to me.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, when he's like he sort of goes to touch the
bullet and there's no blood andshe pulls her blouse down.
She's wearing Kevlar and thebullet the bullet's in the,
which is a little bitunbelievable.
I went to high school with thewoman who is now the chief of
police of Baltimore County, andso there were.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I represent.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
She's pretty awesome.
She is pretty awesome, and sothere were, and she's like four
feet tall and like a badass.
She's a little taller than thatbut she is a badass.
But anyway she can't we.
We ran into each otherprofessionally while I was
working at the museum.
She was still in Baltimore cityand she was wearing a bullet
per vest under her, you know,like button, white button, men's
(19:35):
style shirt, and like I knewshe was wearing a vest, Cause
it's like and that's that's like.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
As many times as I've seen that scene, I've never
understood what stopped thebullet cause it doesn't look.
It's not clear to me thatthat's Kevlar.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
So and that's meant.
I think maybe there is bodyarmor that's less bulky than
what my, what my former highschool classmate, was wearing
that day.
But I think that that's one ofthose things I just have to like
just go with it, trace, just gowith it.
Just go with it, because I butlet's talk about that scene.
Yeah, yeah, that scene.
(20:12):
So, like badass, chloe Stand infront of the you're going to
have to shoot me yeah, I don'twant to die and I can't before I
stop you and then shoot him,like God bless, with, like you
know, 15, 20 guys with gunspointed at them.
Amazing, amazing, she's amazing.
And then this this is anoverthinking moment that, like
(20:35):
still bothers me to this day thewings come out to protect and
all those goons continue toshoot at the angel, like they're
looking at right, like, and wayback in the beginning we saw
that the like, the wings like,made people go crazy because it
(20:57):
was proof of divinity and we'veI've done some, you know, mental
furniture rearranging.
Those wings came directly fromGod, these were self actualized,
so that's maybe why they're notquite as powerful, but still
there's no hesitation Like justoh, skinny, let's just have a
hard time, like even these, likehardened criminals, wouldn't be
(21:18):
like uh boss, maybe weshouldn't shoot an angel, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, he, he does it.
One point says go on, shootLike, he does like he says
finish it.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
That's before the wings have come out.
Oh, okay, that's when thebullets have been exchanged
between Pierce and Chloe and shefalls back and Lucifer's
holding her.
He's like how is this happening?
This can't be happening.
Lucifer says that and Piercesays finish it.
Well, he's like down stairs andthen the wings come out to
(21:49):
protect her and I just, I don'tknow.
It bothers me Although althoughon this rewatch cause I had
that in mind when Pierce talksto the bald guy who ends up
getting captured, and the guysays glad you're back and
whatever they have that wholething, and the, the goon, the
(22:10):
minion, says never seen youscared before, like maybe they
know, mm, mm, mm, which I don't,I don't know, I don't know, but
that that little piece doesbother me a little, a little bit
, a little bit.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
But the the like you.
You feel like Tom Ellis isactually in agonizing pain and
emotional pain because he's he'safraid that she's dead.
And between that and then whenhe comes through the window with
the wings, with that um bloodywings, with that dead weather
(22:50):
song playing.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
That used to be on my workout.
That was on my workout mix fora while.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So I know that song really really well.
And I was like oh yeah, Ididn't remember this.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Like your mother Anyway let's let's talk about
Pierce for a minute.
So I think I was telling youbefore we started recording that
I wish they had shown some ofhow dangerous he was while he
and Chloe were together, becauseI think that would have been a
richer vein for storytellingthan the the straight love
(23:24):
triangle, Cause the lovetriangle was just about jealousy
.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
And it never, and it was, and never quite Never
gelled.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, that's the word .
And it's particularly like onceDan learns that Pierce is a
center man and and then Chloe'slike I almost married him.
That level of like menace fromhim would have been a much
(23:52):
richer and more interestingtopic, I think, than just the
straight jealousy Cause, likeI'd be okay with the jealousy
was there, if we're a little bitmore cognizant of how dangerous
he was because he and now someof that I can see, because the
way they write Celeste Jills,they just don't get it when it
comes to that sort of thing,because Lucifer and Pierce do
(24:15):
have that odd connection witheach other.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
A sort of frenemy thing going on yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
But then that again would be of the more interesting
love triangle.
I agree so.
Speaker 3 (24:27):
I've said that before , but also, though, in defense
of our story tell.
I mean it could have beeninteresting, sort of in the
dramatic irony sense that asviewers we would be seeing his
duplicity, yeah, while it washappening.
In defense of our showrunners,I wonder if it would have
changed the way we felt aboutChloe If we, if we, if during
(24:51):
the romance we genuinely we feltmore strongly that she was
being duped, which I think wouldnot be desirable from sort of
the showrunner perspective Storypart.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, that's true.
That's a good point.
It does make it clear, likewhen she calls him and he's
saying, I do love you, it makesit much more clear how incapable
of love he is, because what hethinks of as love is like is
clearly not an action.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
I mean the fact that he could be like he shot her and
was like finish it.
No, finish it yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, even the fact that he was willing to shoot
this person that she cares aboutdeeply in front of her, like I
cannot imagine being OK withthat when it's not, you know, a
situation where someone'sactually posing a credible
danger, right, you know, thereare times when I can see that
happening and it beingjustifiable, but even then it
(25:52):
would be justifiable, but eventhen it would be wrenching, like
I know I'm hurting this personI love.
So, yeah, I did appreciate thatChloe was convinced because he
pretended to tear up overCharlotte, yep, and she's like
that's not him.
So she does know him wellenough to know.
(26:12):
Like that's just not how heoperates, that's not how he
shows emotion, nothing.
Yeah, we don't have a whole lotof time.
I want to make sure we talkabout Dan and Mays.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Agreed Really quickly though, because I think this is
like the redditor is the thingthat you pointed out the dying
scene, pierce's dying scene.
The conversation between thetwo of them implies the question
that you see on Reddit all thetime like what about people who
genuinely have no remorse?
Do they in fact?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
go to heaven?
Do they go to heaven becausethey don't feel bad?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, yeah, and there seems to be an implication of
that.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Because when Pierce knows he's dying, he says well,
I still don't feel bad aboutanything I did, so I'm going to
go to heaven.
And Lucifer says, oh, you feelit deep down.
And so there's.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Right, and so the message that our showrunners
were giving us with that wasthat there actually there is
this deep understanding betweenthese two people, that they are
mirrors in a certain way.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Well, and it happens immediately because Lucifer
Right, even while he's saying it.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
even while he's saying it, his eyes have started
Right.
So there is there.
So that is the point that theywere making.
And then, inadvertently, theymade this other point, this
other cosmological point, whichI think I still think that you
are right that there is at leastroom within the cosmology that
they've created that someone whoA Hitler, or yeah, yeah, or A
(27:38):
whole pot Right, right, wouldnot in fact end up in heaven,
despite having no Having noremorse whatsoever.
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And I think that was a specific like I'm talking to
you, cain, not Exactly.
This is how it works, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Agreed, agreed, all right.
So, now let's talk about Danand Mays.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yes, poor Dan and poor Charlotte.
They got one week together.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I mean, that's about how long it has to have been
since the last episode.
They really do care about eachother.
You can tell that she caresabout him because he's shown up
in her hell loop.
I do want to say something alsoabout her.
Poor children are going to bevery traumatized by the loss of
their mother after having losther in another way.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Multiple times, multiple times.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah, and this is the only time we see Charlotte as
herself, with her children, isin this hell loop.
We don't even know if she'sgotten to see them since she's
been back in her own body.
Right, it's heartbreaking.
I love that Charlotte's wearingthe waffle.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
The waffle bracelet, bracelet, which is so goofy and
so Dan and sweet Like.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
What I like about it is that because everyone's like
are you sure about that?
In terms of the gifts, like, Iguess.
So, whereas they really likeeach other for who they are, she
likes that he's a goofball andhe's the waffle king and he
likes that she is so harddriving and who she is, and so I
(29:18):
really appreciate that.
It's showing that you don'thave to pretend to be anyone
other than who you are for theperson who really loves you.
Just a reiteration of that.
And then the way that he isresponding and acting all
throughout the devil of my wordis so relatable, every aspect of
(29:40):
it is so relatable that he'slike I have to work, I totally
get that, and even when Pierceis like I'd be in the same
position, so that's fine.
Just that he's barely holdingonto his anger and needs other
people redirect him when hisanger is getting in a position
(30:01):
where bad things could happen.
And then thinking about thefact that immediately end of
this episode, we know that oneof the emotional supports, two
of his main emotional supports,are going to go away for a month
his ex-wife and his daughterand so he's going to be dealing
with this awful heartbreak andanger and sense of betrayal.
(30:24):
And Amenadiel's not back yet.
Oh, and Amenadiel, you're right.
Three of his main emotionalsupports.
It's just poor Dan.
Yeah, I mean.
And what a character Arke's had, because we met him as a
corrupt cop, yeah.
And here he is now as someonewe're rooting for.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, yeah so.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
And Mays, mays, oh my goodness.
So I said I felt like shestopped spiraling when she's
trying to like catfish or Idon't know if you'd call it that
, but trick Amenadiel.
But he immediately gives her ahug and says you know, I will
always be there for you.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And you were saying it's more of a pause rather than
a stop of the spiraling or slowdown or something Slow down.
Yeah, I feel like that.
Yeah, I feel like when shebelieves Linda is in danger.
That's the true shift.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's the.
She finally starts tounderstand that people do see
her.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, and not just the demon.
Well, part of her spiral isthat she felt she had nothing on
earth, which is why she wantedto go back to hell.
And so having Amenadiel say andshow in like by embracing her,
that she actually does have atleast something on earth.
So I think that was what thesort of pattern interrupt was,
(31:54):
and then the idea that she couldlose Linda.
And in a forever kind of wayyeah, and knowing that she was
at least in part responsible.
You know because of her.
You know because if Pierce hadin fact threatened Linda, it
would have been to get to Maze.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Oh yeah, I will say maybe this is fluff, but when
Linda says you look like youfought 10 people and ran a mile,
she says like you don't need tosay it, and she's like there's
12 people and four miles andit's been a while since I
considered myself a runner butI'm like a mile's, not that far.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I mean in what she's wearing after fighting some
people?
True.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
True, but I also I appreciate Maze saying like
actions are easy for me, I needto say the words, because
they're hard.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
That was powerful dialogue, honestly, yeah, cause
I think that, like that, I needto be brave in the way that's
brave for me.
I mean, to your point aboutthis helping people like that
sort of knowing where yourbravery is as opposed to what
you know, that felt really,really powerful and important to
(33:12):
me.
Yeah, all right, so we're outof time?
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yes, I'm gonna name A couple of fluff.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
All right, I'm just gonna quickly name that.
It was really fun to be fakedout with Ella and the phone by
the stories, by the writers,like I was faked out, I was like
wait, I didn't remember Ellabetraying them, being betraying
them.
No, it's because she didn'tCause she didn't.
Yeah, that was really reallyfun and well done and Amy Garcia
nailed it and then the writersnailed it.
(33:40):
Well done.
That's my little fluff, whatyou got, okay.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
So Chloe is a little bit all disheveled because she
stayed up all night working onthe forest clay thing.
Then they get forest clay.
She's having the conversation.
So she's been up for you know,24 hours At least, or more.
At that point, yeah, it's like36.
At that point Charlotte dies.
The next, next episode we seeit's the morning and she's still
(34:06):
wearing the same clothes.
Yeah, so Chloe's been up for twodays straight and then they
have everything that happens andit's like another night and
morning where we see she has notgone too bad, so she has been
awake Now.
It's one of those where, like Iwould, I would be babbling non
set, like I'm not capable ofbeing awake for 72 hours
(34:28):
straight, just can't do it.
Now, to be fair, that alsospeaks to the mindset she's in.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, and the adrenaline yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That, to me, is it was just interesting, cause I
didn't notice it first.
Couple of times I've watchedthese episodes, but I definitely
was just like did she get anapp somewhere, cause she's got
to be exhausted.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah, so, and then one last thing she mentioned
what you said about the suits.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, and I have.
I have another quick thing, ifwe can maybe make it happen.
So yeah, last time, in our lastepisode, we talked about the
suits.
He starts this episode, thesetwo episodes, in a brown suit,
which I don't like, but then hemoves into the black suit with
the white shirt and the red, thered pocket square, pocket
square.
Yeah, you were saying that thatwas that there was a theory
that that was sort of hisdevilishness, and then you noted
(35:17):
that he's trying to recreatetheir greatest hit.
So of course, that's why he'swearing the black suit with the
red, which I really like.
Well done.
And then the other thing.
So two other things maybe.
I'll remember both of them.
One is when, at the crime scenethe next day, when Lucifer
finds the feather and then istelling Pierce cause, we don't
(35:38):
know yet oh, yeah, yeah, yeah wedon't know yet and he's like
there's this theory, but hedoesn't actually say the word
self-actualization.
It's like I like.
I backed it up and watched itagain.
I was like he didn't actuallyfinish his book, yeah yeah, but
like maybe it ended on thecutting room floor because it's
written as if Pierce understandswhat the husband said, so that
(36:00):
that like bugged me a little bit, yeah, and the I lost whatever
the other thing was.
So it was so fluffy, it justfloated away, it just.
Yeah, you can't help thetendrils, it just totally, it
just totally floated away andI'm like darn, I'm disappointed
(36:22):
You're going to remember it assoon as we get off Zoom.
You're right, I am, I totallyam, yeah maybe I'll put it in
there, you can do a coda whereit's just you.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I can put it in there .
Hey, I thought of it.
I think that would be cool, atleast for our 12, 15, 15
subscribers.
We love you all.
Thank you for subscribing.
Okay.
I'm a minute late for my nextmeeting, so I better get going,
okay.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
Okay, see you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetent Doorcom, Licensed under Creative
Commons by Attribution 4.0License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(37:13):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
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