February 8, 2024 • 43 mins
“Boo Normal” & “Once Upon a Time” interrupt the flow of the Deckerstar storyline. These two episodes, though both boasting solid storytelling, tend to get skipped, fast-forwarded, or otherwise maligned by fans who cannot wait to find out what happens after Chloe unequivocally learns the truth in “A Devil of My Word.”
Tracie and Emily take some time to investigate and overthink these two “bonus” episodes. The sisters spend time overthinking in what proto-Semitic language the Angel Azrael might have first coined the phrase “Smell you later” and unpacking the need for both Death of the Endless (who removes the soul from the body) and the angel of death (who escorts the soul to its final destination). They lament the adolescent behavior of a Lucifer who uses the forensics camera to take dick pics, but appreciate the hero worship that Ella displays toward Chloe.
In Once Upon a Time, both sisters swoon over Neil Gaiman as the voice of God, laugh at the idea of Amenadiel circling Los Angeles waiting for Lucifer’s prayer, and blush about the scene in which Lucifer is overheard with a witness, “pumping her for information.” In a deep overthinking of celestial biology and physics, the sisters decide that bullets must crumple against Lucifer’s skin and then fall into the waistband of his trousers.
Heads-up, Emily had the wrong mic selected when we recorded, so her voice is a bit under water. The content remains insightful and hilarious.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey there, friends.
Fair warning Emily was using abad mic when we recorded this
episode.
Her vocal track is not great,but what she has to say, as
always, is insightful andhilarious.
Hey there.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I am here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker, yes,
hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And I am here with my sister, Emily Guy Birkin.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
No hyphen and together we are doing
lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
It's what we do.
It's what we do.
Tracy just had to stop me fromoverthinking something
completely unrelated, because weonly have so much time.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
There's always so much time, and we're here to
overthink Lucifer.
Time is the construct, and yetit is the only container in
which we can proceed.
So alright, so that was quitethe sound.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm always overthinking it.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There are two episodes.
Today we get the two bonusepisodes from season three, 325
and 326, boo Normal and OnceUpon a Time.
Well, actually, I'm looking atthe episode list and only Once
Upon a Time is listed as a bonus, but I'm calling Boo Normal a
bonus because it didn't makesense in sequence.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think I read that because, if you recall, earlier
this season I was saying thatwas season two I actually think
that might have been four fromseason two and two from season
four, and that would actuallymake sense because about 20 to
21 episodes is a typical season,right, and we have 26.
(02:04):
And we have 26.
So if there were four thatwe're supposed to do for season
two and then there was a Ithought 22 was a typical season.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was a fall season Because 13.
21, I thought I thought it was21.
I don't know.
You can tell we actually workin a biz, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So I just thought 24, the TV show only had to add
like three extra to make it 26.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, that every hour Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
But anyway, what I read, I think, this week was
that they had already filmed BooNormal and Once Upon a Time
when they were canceled andthey're like, all right, just
Tackle them on, there's a bonusfry.
When you go to McDonald's andyou're like I've eaten all the
fries, they're like, oh, in theback of the bottom of the bag
there's a bonus fry.
I wasn't expecting it.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It's delicious, but it's a little bit cold, it's a
little bit distinct from theother experience.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't taste.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Quite like the last time it's the fresh.
I will say my first watchthrough my binge.
It had already been saved andwas already on Netflix and
season four already existed andI had read that these were bonus
episodes, so I skipped them.
I leaped on right over them.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So I didn't know what happened next.
Yeah, so I my experience wasthat I didn't know that and I
was like what the hell?
I just kept going.
I was like, oh, I want to knowwhat happened and I just like I
watched them, but I was likewhat the hell is this?
I was like I missed everythingbecause I was just like get to
(03:46):
the good stuff already.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
And that's actually I'm very glad that we rewatched
them, because I was able toenjoy them Not even though I had
watched through and then comeback.
So I did that Like I see a lotof people talking about who you
know they're introduced to thisfor once on Netflix and I didn't
know that about those and arejust into watching and you're
like, wait, I'm sorry, what,right exactly?
(04:12):
So you know, I didn't have thatexperience.
I still was just like once Igot to them, it was after the
end of season four and I wasstill like I mean, you know what
happened next about, you know,for season five?
And I was just like this is not.
I mean it's good, but it's notwhat I want.
And so, watching this time Igot to be like you know, we were
(04:33):
solid up, yeah, super, yeah,yeah, even though I wish they
could appeal in a place wherethey don't feel so absolutely
yeah, I think Boo Normal couldeasily have been slotted in
somewhere earlier in the season.
But yeah, I don't think theyknew.
I mean, if they had, if theywere going to do that, they
would have had to do that onceit was announced Right Right,
(04:55):
because when they released itthey thought it'd been, they'd
been canceled.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, that's one of those like yeah, what are you
going to do All?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
right.
So let's, let's dig in, let'soverthink them a little bit, dig
in.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Boo, normal, yeah, so , um, charlie Me as as real is
inspired.
She's brilliant.
Like it's inspired Cause youwould never expect the angel of
death to be anything other thanlike badass, scary creepy like.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And like a total goth girl, like death from the sand
man.
But yeah, she's not thosethings, not at all.
She's just a nerdy mensch.
I don't know how to describeher.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, she, she, she.
She's exactly someone who wouldbe friend Ella.
You know, there's a reason whyshe loves both with friend Ella.
Yeah, you know, like that youcan totally see that Um, and
then you can also see why shedid it right, like, I don't know
, she's just an angel for thejob of death, because it would
(06:04):
be someone gentle, um, and andto, like, I don't know, get
interested in individuals whilestill having having some
distance.
I don't know, I just like ifshe looked like what we expected
, you know, like grim reapertype thing that would be too
scary.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well, also, I think, because of the cosmology of the
show, you know that that thegreat before and the great after
, you know the great beyond areboth actually like when we, when
we have that full scope in ourminds, like death is actually
just a transition, it's notactually an end, and so it makes
(06:44):
sense that it's not this likethat, it's more this Azrael and
less maze, which is you know,sort of what's expected with a
demon blade and whatever is inline to with Neil Gaiman
storytelling.
I just mentioned Sandman, which,now that the new series is
available on Netflix, I'm partway through no spoilers, y'all,
(07:05):
although I read the graphicnovel, so I guess I guess I've
already spoiled it for myself.
But one of the things that'sreally interesting to me that
I've been thinking about withAzrael and death is that, like
both actually are needed inGaiman's cosmology, like the one
like death from the Sandman isactually there at the moment of
death, then it's Azrael's job totake the soul to wear it where
(07:30):
its final spot is, finaldestination.
Yeah, which I think is reallyinteresting that those two jobs
are different.
But both of those charactersAzrael in this series and Death
in the original in the Sandmanseries are actually really like
open and friendly andcompassionate women in this case
(07:53):
, and so I'm appreciating thatfrom the mind of Neil Gaiman.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, I can recall.
I have not read all of Sandman,I've only read the first few
series.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I read them but it was 20 years ago, I think volume
Because they were originallyout like the actual comics.
But then they were.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I read them in volumes, yeah yeah, I read the
first volume and I can recallthere's a point where Sandman
follows Death on her, and not awhole lot has really stuck with
me, but that like the man whosays Shma and the child.
(08:35):
She says that's all I got.
And she's like sorry, it's howit goes sometimes.
It's how it goes sometimes,yeah, and that's like just
really stuck with me, alsobecause she is so patient, she's
very gentle with the baby.
It's a terrible break, I'msorry.
And then the man who says look,it never occurred to me that I
(08:58):
would actually say the Shma, butI'm glad I had a chance to do
it.
So yeah, it was.
And for those who don't know,the Shma is the prayer that
every Jew is supposed to sayupon waking, upon going to bed.
And is it just before death oris it on the day of your death?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Ideally it would be the final words on your lips,
and so I have seen, like it'skind of adorable, like Orthodox
children at like a water park,like say it at the top of the
slide in case they die on theslide because it's meant to be
the final.
I'm sorry that's not funny, butI just think it's adorable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is the central prayer ofthe way that the faith has
(09:41):
turned into a religion.
Yeah, essentially so it's.
The one hero is real, the Lord,your God.
The Lord is one.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to bring us to.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's what I was going to bring us to.
Yeah, so Ray Ray, yeah, I loveher.
Cat sweater Adorable, adorablenickname.
Cat sweater I am adorable aswell.
The whole costuming for her wasjust wonderful.
There's something reallycompelling to me about the way
when she explains to Lucifer inthe last scene, like how she
(10:15):
only ever gets to interact withthem when they're dead humans, I
mean and they're so morose andlike Ella was such a different,
you know, just a Ray Ray, uh-huh.
Yeah, there was somethingreally compelling about that,
especially within the context ofthis show where we've seen
these celestials repeatedly kindof start at arm's length and
(10:37):
kind of like condescend tohumans and then grow to really
appreciate and love us and so tohave the angel of death sort of
name that you know, that likehow much more alive we are when
we're alive, which is I don'tknow.
It was satisfying to me forthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I also appreciated that the episode starts with
Ella arriving at the crime scene.
Yes, and so we get to see awarning routine, basically, and
know that her chippiness is andher connection with all the
people.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I have to say, though , overthinking it Like, how does
she know all that stuff?
Like what did we?
Like?
I was led to believe and maybeI misperceived it that we were
watching her arrive at the crimescene for the first time, but
then she already knows all thisstuff about what's happening.
Like, did she come back to it?
Did we miss something that wasmissing in the montage?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I think that was the montage, and then I think it was
when you were supposed to havelike shooting pictures and then
like time passed before.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm too, I'm too, I'm too literal, like I wish they
had actually said two hourslater, and then I could have,
like, followed.
I don't know, I was like.
That was like an overthinkingmoment for me.
It was a little bit problematic, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, I get that, I get that.
What kind of work Like with theflash and everything.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's one of my least favorite.
Actually Luciferisms is thedick pic joke.
I don't know.
I mean there was that other.
There was one episode where hetalked about the roosters, the
prize roosters website Maybesending it there, but I don't
know that I don't.
(12:28):
I appreciate and enjoy thesexual Lucifer, but the grass
Lucifer, the dick pics, I don'tlike that.
Like I think part of his, forme, part of his appeal is the
elegance, and obviously elegancecan be sexualized.
(12:49):
But there's nothing elegantabout dick pics.
I just don't.
I it's my least favorite jokeabout him.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, fair enough.
It's also like at this pointthat's a leaning into like the
adolescent humor because he iskind of an overgrung teenager.
But we're three years in, he'skind of past that at least at
work.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, and especially because.
Then what is that?
That?
The consequences of dick picson the forensics camera.
Ella is the one who's going topay the price for that, not him.
So yeah, that did not land well.
Yeah, and the suit he's wearingthat tan brown suit with the
(13:40):
blue Awful, awful, not a fan.
It's sort of like baby diarrheabrown, it's not good.
Yeah, it's sanitarium when Iwear brown it's hard to find
something isn't flattering onTom Ellis, but they managed with
that color.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
We know.
Yeah, yeah, but let's talk alittle bit about the case.
Yeah, sure, oh, I haven'toverthink that.
Okay, the way they found thecase is Beckett the scamming 14
year old girl was not actuallytaking her tears because she's
allergic to freesia.
And so Chloe goes to interviewthe mother, who wears a freesia
(14:24):
perfume, but she hadn't beenthere.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Right, well, presumably it was all over her
family.
Yeah, the kid had been there.
Yeah, yeah, it's a littletenuous, yeah, so, especially
because the report from Dan wasthat the place reeked of it,
which would imply that themother herself had been there,
(14:49):
when in fact it was the dad.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
I think that's fair.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It could have been.
Just, you know like this isalready shown to be kind of an
unpleasant 14-year-old kid, andso when she reeked of it, true,
she could have just said thatbecause it was enough to trigger
her knowledge.
Yeah, that's the story of Danlosing back at the end of the
story and then losing her,losing back at it was weird,
(15:15):
like it felt like it's flagssponsor the show, because I
really don't understand.
It was just.
It was very, very odd.
Not that it was the kid gettingaway from Dan and playing him,
like that.
I'm totally down with havingthat story line.
(15:39):
I think it's an interestingstory, particularly where it
gets to where he finally getsthrough to her and she's like
this is serious and you knowit's okay if you make a mistake.
That's a whole six-flag thing.
And then when they needed Maysto track her down but they
didn't they really needed herfor a ride, like like they just
(16:00):
didn't have the brain in dragher down.
They just went back to watch,like they got in the box and
then they wouldn't have had Maysmaking fun of them, although
Mays' reaction was mmm, yeah,that was good.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I think for the mirroring that they do, they
needed Lucifer to make a mistakethat even Lucifer would admit
was a mistake, and so losing thekid and having her steal his
car, I think after havingroasted Dan for the same mistake
.
I mean, that was thestorytelling function that it
serves, so that at the end, whenhe confronts Azrael and she
(16:38):
says nobody's perfect, okay,fair enough.
Yeah, that was like the wickedthat that story knocked over.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, I'm just realizing how thick this episode
is because we have to hurryyeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
And LS.
So like I don't know, I'm anormie.
I mean that's a normal person.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
A normal person.
So I recently took my youngest,my eight year old, to a
Renaissance fair here inWisconsin, and in the time since
you and I went to Renaissancefairs, we were teenagers in the
90s and now you're in a fineLuciferese at the Renaissance
fair, which makes sense.
(17:23):
I just it was new to me and wewere in the Kings and Queens,
like Meadow, whatever they callit, and there was a knight fully
dressed in a furry costume andarmor, and it wasn't armor, it
was like a.
It was like a king that had hada.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
But but a furry.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Not a shield on it, but okay, but a furry.
Okay, like fully Uh-huh.
And my son was like, oh, that'sgone, let's get on.
And then like the, the furry Idon't remember what he did, but
like he did a bow or somethinglike that.
And then he's the, the mouthopened and closed, and he's like
, oh, that's pretty cool, we'repretty fancy.
And my son was just like, oh,how'd you do that?
(18:05):
And then the mouth opened andclosed again and he's like I'm
so excited.
I was like all right, in 20years, if he is going to furry
conventions.
I'll know what the origin storyis.
Which I won't hide except thatI know that they've got a Nazi
(18:27):
problem on my furry community.
So that's, if there's not aNazi problem in most every
community, yeah, yeah, like someof my little ponies have a.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I know the bronies, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
So anyway, that was a long time ago, just that, you
know, I, I, I find the furryphenomenon unique, interesting
in a way that I like, because Ijust can't wrap my head around
it.
But I also, I love me some somelike business.
So, like like I would, I can'tsee myself ever.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's too much effort for you, em.
There's like there's no way,like I mean, you and I can
barely be bothered to like youknow, I don't know brush our
hair for this show.
Like we're not going to, like,maintain a costume like that.
I mean, I would get it.
(19:24):
Yeah Well, I can't brush mybecause it would take the curls
out, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I noticed in the scene where, where I was wearing
the the Wesley furry costume atsome point when there's having
the fight, there's a little girlthere wearing a unicorn onesie
of the kind that I desperatelywant when I'm like that is the
kind of thing I can get, sothat's the level of effort that
you're willing to put into this.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
See, that's just it.
You know you secretly, you wantto be a furry, but the barriers
are just too high.
That's actually how I feelabout Goth.
I want to be Goth, but I do nothave the effort or attention to
do the work.
That's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, and I'm also thinking like the thing over
your head.
It just that seems like itwould be so fun.
Yeah, Agreed, Agreed.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Not a fan, All right.
So I I know it was supposed tomake me laugh, but and and I
guess it did make me chuckle butthe fact that Lucifer knew the
angel of death was in townbecause Ella said smell you
later.
I mean especially because thatimplies that, like 10,000 years
(20:41):
ago or whatever, the angel ofdeath was already saying it.
Because they haven't spoken,They've been estranged since the
rebellion.
Yeah, that's, that's what we'reallowed to believe.
But all those eons ago, Azraelwas already saying or what
language Smell you later?
Like what?
(21:01):
Is it Benaromantic?
I don't know.
No, like some proto-SemiticErdu?
No, not Erdu.
Erdu's from the subcontinent?
Yeah, no, it would.
No, no.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I'm, what am I thinking of?
The, the, the Indo like thatlanguage.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, some Indo-Semitic.
Yes, agreed, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
That's where I got Erdu with moving into, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And her nickname was already Ray Ray back then.
Ray Ray Because she said whatyou're too cool to call me Ray
Ray now, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I, I now am like you, know what, I feel like you and
I need to figure out how to saysmell you later and see blue.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I, I actually can figure that out, I can figure
that out.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I know when it wouldn't be that difficult.
People is dead and thenredirected.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Exactly, exactly, and so I, I could just speak.
One of those speak to one ofthose.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Any of our 15 subscribers happen to be Israel.
Yeah, yeah, the the actual case.
Instead of it being areflection of Lucifer, it's a
reflection of Ella, this time,because she has to come to terms
with the fact that she'sdifferent and that's okay, in
(22:23):
the same way that the little boy, the, the violin player, is
different, and that's what makesan amazing.
Yeah, nice, so, which was,which was pretty cool and
storytelling wise and like it'sa solid episode.
Even with this, I hate me likeyou introduce a problem at the
(22:43):
very beginning of the episodethat, out of nowhere, that is
resolved by the end of theepisode is a very great event.
So like, oh, my little brotheris moving back to Detroit, so
I'm going to have to move backto Detroit, and you know they
needed an inciting incident,they needed like a reason for
(23:04):
Rare to come back, and you knowit's a well written episode.
That is just something I'm verysensitive to in stories where
it's just like you justintroduced this problem to
immediately solve it.
So in the same way, I reallyhate it in books where they try
(23:25):
to raise tension when killingoff a minor character you've
never met before by giving thatminor character immediate back
story before they die.
It's just like you know.
You haven't earned that.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you watch those those
elimination competition creativeshows.
My spouse and I have realizedthat if you learn a whole lot of
backstory about one of thecharacters, they're going home
that episode.
That's how it works.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
So it's just and it's a storytelling shortcut that
sometimes you need and I but Ilike I'm very sensitive to where
, like I feel like you haven'tearned this and I wish there had
been something like we've beenintroduced to a younger brother
before we know that she came outfor him in some ways.
(24:13):
I wish there had been somethingat some point earlier about the
possibility of him moving home.
Yeah, and you also want to saythat, in the sense of this
episode coming right after adevil of my word and
quintessential Deca-shark'sopposite order, always reaction
to Ella saying I see ghosts wasamazing and perfect and kind of
(24:39):
goes to show that, like what wewere talking about before, where
Ella is not so much aboutshipping Hecker or Deckerstar,
she just wants her really goodfriend, who she looks up to be
happy and so that really kind ofends.
It makes me because I know thatAmy Garcia is about same age as
the rest of the cast, but it'llbe allowed to be like I think
(25:03):
Ella is younger, yeah, and sobecause I know Amy Garcia is
about same age, it's I kind offorget sometimes that she's
supposed to be younger, but Ithink it's much clearer now Like
, oh no, there's definitely.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Like there's the hero worship aspect of it which Ella
is prone to, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And also makes sense if she's.
I mean, I don't know, she's gota little brother, but she's got
bigger siblings, Right.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So Diamond Cleaner is the older brother, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
But, like I know, as the youngest in our family, I
was prone to hero worship and Ithink that that's common among
younger siblings.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So yeah, all right, let's talk about Once Upon a
Time, because we don't haveforever.
So, okay, I just want to say,as a huge Game and Fan, not as
big as they come.
For sure there are many who aremore dedicated.
I see you, and I think thatNeil Gaiman is among the best
(26:11):
storytellers of our generation.
He's such a great storytellerand that Gaiman put his stamp of
approval on this TV show byvoicing God is just so
satisfying on so many levels, soletter, Just so many levels,
(26:32):
that he agreed to voice, to dothe voiceover as God.
A little confusing now that Iknow Dennis Haysbert is God, but
I didn't know that when I waswatching it here.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
So just having said that, I just had this thought
Another one of the greateststorytellers of our generation
is Jordan Peele, and I justrealized I now need Neil Gaiman
and Jordan Peele.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh wow, that would be amazing.
That would be amazing.
That would be incredible.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Anyway, universe, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then also the meta messageat the end where it's like a
child, just a parent, wantswhat's best for their child,
best for their child.
And so that's God talking aboutLucifer, that's talking about
(27:21):
John Decker and Chloe Decker,but that's also Neil Gaiman
talking about his intellectualchild, and Gaiman has to say
there are so many people who arelike, oh, this is not.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh right, people want to gatekeep on Gaiman's work
and Gaiman he shuts that down.
No one gets to gatekeep Sandmanhe says no, which is the
original source material forthis Lucifer?
I am just so.
I mean, talk about hero worship, the guy just gets it and he
(27:56):
gets what art is and what it'sfor.
And yeah, I agree, I don't knowthat I made that connection
before, you just said it, butit's really, really deeply
resonating for me.
Yeah, yeah, there were thingsthat I liked very much about
this episode and there wereother things that just I don't
know, I don't know, it justwasn't Like Linda's cleavage.
(28:17):
Oh, I liked her cleavage.
I liked her cleavage.
I did not like her glasses.
Yeah, I didn't like her glasses.
They were very old fashioned,to like 1970s looking.
I also like I don't know, Ididn't really like where Linda
was.
I mean, I wasn't supposed tolike where Linda was in this
alternate universe.
What was?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
interesting to me about Linda in this alternate
universe is your game and, asGod says, you know you might
choose immoral, make immoralchoices that still have the same
conscience.
And it made me realize, becauseshe does things that are kind
of unethical in our universe,but never immoral, yeah, and
that that actually, like thatwas an interesting thing for me
(28:59):
to realize.
Like you know, she does for themost part was best for her
patients, with the possibleexception of sleeping with
Lucifer, but at the time itdidn't really matter for him,
right?
And then, once it did, shestopped Right, whereas what she
might have been doing in thatthat universe may have been
(29:20):
ethically okay I don't know, Imean ethically do be a personnel
it was definitely immoral, yeah, it was definitely not right
for her patients.
Yeah, yeah, I find her herstory arc is upsetting Dan and
Charlotte's interesting in thatthey in that universe they get a
(29:45):
happy ending, except that theydon't, because they'll both end
up in hell.
And you know, trixie obviouslydoesn't exist, right.
But there's a little part of methat's glad that in some
universe they get to have ahappy ending, even if he's awful
, if she's kind of awful, yeah,but there's something within him
(30:06):
and something within her thatfinds each other, in the same
way that there's somethingwithin Lucifer, something within
Chloe that finds each other, nomatter what universe they're in
.
I have to say, casting wise, theactor playing her dad.
The first time I saw this I waslike man, that makeup is
amazing, because I was certainly.
It was the same dude, exactlythe same actor who's actually
(30:31):
Leslie and Brant's husband.
Oh yeah, he plays John Deckeras a young man.
But well, that's a differentactor, like it's an older man,
and every time I see it I golike how is this guy?
I just like him and maybe if Iwatched them back to back like
you wouldn't think so.
I wouldn't think so, but everytime, like you look exactly like
John Decker.
(30:51):
Yeah, I appreciate that he isable at the end to say like this
is not about you.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's about me.
He's like the John Decker thatwe get here is very mature and
enlightened, or he gets to be atthe very end.
They give him a very, very,very nice yes in lightens,
although the way he treats herprior to that is pretty.
I know that's what I say.
He gets to be, he gets there.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And that, like is rationale.
Actually, as a parent, makessense to me.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
No but yes, and she's supposed to be like 35.
I mean, I'm sorry, but youdon't get to say go home to your
35 year old daughter.
I mean, our dad's not sayinganything to us, so maybe I would
(31:49):
, I guess I would take it, Iguess I would take it.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, particularly since she's not clear on acting
being the right thing for her.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And the like your mom told me to remind you, to
remind them to film from yourbest side, like ew.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Well, and that's part of season one, when we first
meet Penelope.
Yeah, the overbearing stagemother, yeah, the overbearing
stage mother thing, and it'sjust like, yeah, I would hate
that so much.
Clearly she does.
(32:27):
I mean, one of the things Ithought that I really liked in
this alternate universe is whenthey're going after also, they
didn't go very far, but they'regoing after a guy stealing a
Porsche and Liz Fergo drives.
She's like no, I have literallybeen trained for this.
This is kind of cool becauseshe has been Like I'm sure she's
had some sort of drivertraining and stuff like that.
(32:50):
Although how much of that didthey actually have it for too?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, the thing that bothered me is that she came to
the NASCAR set from this moviefranchise that I'm imagining is
like a cross between Fast andthe Furious and something else,
and she's using the character'sname and nobody but Lucifer
recognizes her.
(33:14):
I don't buy it.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, I was like why wouldn't she use a
different name?
But then you're like, oh, itprobably actually has a funny
genero written on it, so she'sfelt like she has to use that
name.
But you could just flash it andthen I don't.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I mean it said Property of Warner Brothers On
the back exactly.
I don't that like yeah, thatgave me pause in my overthinking
that.
Like I mean, if Dwayne the RackJohnson or Vin Diesel showed up
at a you know at a race trackand tried to use his name from
the movies, like people would belike oh, it's Vin Diesel,
(33:53):
somebody besides Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
The thing is, though I think she's supposed to be
like, still a relatively minorcharacter in the franchise.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I don't think so Not after five, like it's a whole
five movie.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, and she uses the.
I don't know if you notice shehas the.
They have a lot of Easter eggsin there, so like she uses the
weaponizer tech trays on mywatch, yep.
And then at NASCAR they'responsored by Top Meet, which is
that Right?
That's the meeting.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
The singles, the dating app for rich people,
exclusive people, top hats, yeah, yeah, I just, I think,
especially because it's aweaponizer, which in our
universe is a successful likemartial arts franchise, like I
think she's meant to be a moviestar.
(34:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, she did goto Lux without crazy paparazzi.
So maybe I don't know, but Ithat feels like a piece that the
writers really just just justdo it, just go with it, just
work with us here.
She's a movie star who nobodyrecognizes.
I don't know, that happens,yeah.
(35:08):
Maybe all the NASCAR peoplehave face blindness or something
.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Well, maybe it's just that.
Well, I'm taking NASCAR.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
They would watch the weaponizer.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
They would watch the weaponizer.
I was like maybe there's nocode in the sauce or no other
stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Especially if it's like Fast and Furious, which is
the implication I got you knowwith the fancy car and stuff
that she was supposed to drivethe next day.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, I do want to like in thisuniverse.
How does Ella get?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
to watch on this universe?
Well, that's a great question.
I mean, her younger brother waslike stealing cars and stuff,
so maybe she still went with him.
It's just, instead of to takecare of him, she went to help
him.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, first of all, I love her look, oh my God, with
the tattoo sleeve and the like1940s.
Yeah, adorable, adorable.
And she had the big hoopearrings too.
Well, that was very likeleaning into the Latina.
I mean that is like a verystereotypical Latina look with
(36:15):
the big hoops.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
But it looks amazing with that kind of 1940s.
Oh my God, yeah, love that look.
And then it made sense thatthat would be who she was in an
alternate universe, like she'dbe just as nerdy, just a smart
and capable, smart and, yeah,just in a different direction.
(36:37):
And you know, I thought thatshe, like our elegant, protect
you.
It was amazing, I mean, if shewanted.
So, yeah, I really appreciatedthat there's just a very little
bit of a men's deal in thisepisode.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Because he's like he's presumably just flying
around waiting for this.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
It does give us a little bit of a glimpse into who
a men's deal is.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Without the influence of Lucifer and humans.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, and that he's the one who can be influenced by
as well, because he takes itand tries to take his advice and
and check it out.
Yeah and yeah, oh no.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There's been some endearing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it'stime for some fluff.
Okay, because we've beentalking for like 40 minutes now.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah, okay, what fluff do you have?
I'm not sure I have.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Oh, shoot, okay.
So here's, here's like littlelittle purry and fluff.
I've seen when John Deckercatches up to Chloe and she's
like what is he doing?
He's been in the trailer for along time and then finally we
realize what he's doing, like heactually says yes, say my name,
which, which I'm blushing,which feels like I don't know.
(38:08):
It sort of doesn't feel likekeeping with Lucifer's like
sexual persona and I and at thesame time I found it totally too
late- she's a female.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
She reflects the other person's desires, and so,
if her desire, I mean she wasyelling his name.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, I guess, so, I guess, so, I don't know.
And then, and then, like thelike lipstick and like John and
John's, I pumped her For me yeah, oh, my God, yeah, that was,
(38:52):
that was.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I also appreciated the way that John Decker
referred to him as a messy.
Oh, my club owner, please don'ttell me you're hanging out with
that guy Like, oh, and it'sworse.
I'm just like, yeah, that'sgoing to be like as embarrassing
as it'd be to be a 35 year oldwoman have your dad say go home.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I mean, at least it wasn't Chloe and Chloe and have
yeah, I guess, oh, my goodness.
And then then he was like she'sher ankle and I guess the other
(39:39):
little piece of fluff is liketo make sure we knew it was an
alternate universe.
The Corvette was red, rightLike when Spock had the mustache
.
It was evil but like theyshowed us in that throwback
prequel episode when he stolethe Corvette it was black and
(40:04):
like John, not getting shotwouldn't have changed the color
of the car, maybe had a pain.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, john, not getting shot with no effect of
Ella, true, I mean, it's one ofthose butterfly effect things.
So instead of it being theblack car, like it, was what he
found it was, it was a red, true, yeah, okay, so cuz you, yeah,
okay.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Also very convenient that he happens to be wearing
the waistcoat.
It just wasn't the vest, itjust wasn't buttoned up.
So he like buttoned it to coverthe but the build the bullet
holes like that was veryconvenient.
Also as I mentioned, with thebullets the Charlotte took
excellence.
I Mean, does his celestial bodyjust like absorb the lead and,
(41:01):
like I don't know, turning itinto energy or something, or
like are there holes in the backof his blazer?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Well, I'm imagining like it gets through the shirt
and then stops with his skin,and it was sort of false.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Okay, so you have to like, clean him out of his belt.
I.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Don't remind me of one thing about John Decker
being overprotective After yougot a bullet that he survived.
It's also much moreunderstandable why he would push
Chloe away from the idea.
So it's becoming a cop, yeah,after that.
Yeah, agreed.
And I do like the way that thevoiceover by Neil Gaiman is said
(41:59):
.
It's Hard to say whether he'ssaying like, the move the bullet
, and it's this is the alternateuniverse for you move the
bullet and that's like I don'tknow there's, there's a little
bit of oh, you mean, like hemade John die, oh yeah which and
I was trying to think thatbecause I just read something
(42:20):
from one saying about like, oh,that's not okay.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I'm like that is not how I heard it.
I heard this is an alternateuniverse where he didn't die, or
John's.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
But in order for this ultimate universe to happen,
god did have to interfere andmove the bullet which presumably
God could have done in ouruniverse.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, which is kind of.
I mean, that is the ultimateCosmological dilemma.
If God is good, you know, ifGod is great, then God can't be
good.
And if God is good, then Godcan't be great, because why
would God let all this happen?
Yeah, yeah, I have to go.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Now I am being summoned, all right, yeah, I'm
going to be imagining likeLucifer, just like shaking
bullets out of his waistband.
I can't like because he walkedNice.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I like it, I like it.
All right, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin
McLeod from incompetentcom,licensed under creative commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theurl.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(43:42):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey there, friends.
Fair warning Emily was using abad mic when we recorded this
episode.
Her vocal track is not great,but what she has to say, as
always, is insightful andhilarious.
Hey there.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
I am here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker, yes,
hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And I am here with my sister, Emily Guy Birkin.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
No hyphen and together we are doing
lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
It's what we do.
It's what we do.
Tracy just had to stop me fromoverthinking something
completely unrelated, because weonly have so much time.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
There's always so much time, and we're here to
overthink Lucifer.
Time is the construct, and yetit is the only container in
which we can proceed.
So alright, so that was quitethe sound.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
I'm always overthinking it.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
There are two episodes.
Today we get the two bonusepisodes from season three, 325
and 326, boo Normal and OnceUpon a Time.
Well, actually, I'm looking atthe episode list and only Once
Upon a Time is listed as a bonus, but I'm calling Boo Normal a
bonus because it didn't makesense in sequence.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
I think I read that because, if you recall, earlier
this season I was saying thatwas season two I actually think
that might have been four fromseason two and two from season
four, and that would actuallymake sense because about 20 to
21 episodes is a typical season,right, and we have 26.
(02:04):
And we have 26.
So if there were four thatwe're supposed to do for season
two and then there was a Ithought 22 was a typical season.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It was a fall season Because 13.
21, I thought I thought it was21.
I don't know.
You can tell we actually workin a biz, yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
So I just thought 24, the TV show only had to add
like three extra to make it 26.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Oh, that every hour Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
But anyway, what I read, I think, this week was
that they had already filmed BooNormal and Once Upon a Time
when they were canceled andthey're like, all right, just
Tackle them on, there's a bonusfry.
When you go to McDonald's andyou're like I've eaten all the
fries, they're like, oh, in theback of the bottom of the bag
there's a bonus fry.
I wasn't expecting it.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It's delicious, but it's a little bit cold, it's a
little bit distinct from theother experience.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't taste.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Quite like the last time it's the fresh.
I will say my first watchthrough my binge.
It had already been saved andwas already on Netflix and
season four already existed andI had read that these were bonus
episodes, so I skipped them.
I leaped on right over them.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So I didn't know what happened next.
Yeah, so I my experience wasthat I didn't know that and I
was like what the hell?
I just kept going.
I was like, oh, I want to knowwhat happened and I just like I
watched them, but I was likewhat the hell is this?
I was like I missed everythingbecause I was just like get to
(03:46):
the good stuff already.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
And that's actually I'm very glad that we rewatched
them, because I was able toenjoy them Not even though I had
watched through and then comeback.
So I did that Like I see a lotof people talking about who you
know they're introduced to thisfor once on Netflix and I didn't
know that about those and arejust into watching and you're
like, wait, I'm sorry, what,right exactly?
(04:12):
So you know, I didn't have thatexperience.
I still was just like once Igot to them, it was after the
end of season four and I wasstill like I mean, you know what
happened next about, you know,for season five?
And I was just like this is not.
I mean it's good, but it's notwhat I want.
And so, watching this time Igot to be like you know, we were
(04:33):
solid up, yeah, super, yeah,yeah, even though I wish they
could appeal in a place wherethey don't feel so absolutely
yeah, I think Boo Normal couldeasily have been slotted in
somewhere earlier in the season.
But yeah, I don't think theyknew.
I mean, if they had, if theywere going to do that, they
would have had to do that onceit was announced Right Right,
(04:55):
because when they released itthey thought it'd been, they'd
been canceled.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Right Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, that's one of those like yeah, what are you
going to do All?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
right.
So let's, let's dig in, let'soverthink them a little bit, dig
in.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Boo, normal, yeah, so , um, charlie Me as as real is
inspired.
She's brilliant.
Like it's inspired Cause youwould never expect the angel of
death to be anything other thanlike badass, scary creepy like.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And like a total goth girl, like death from the sand
man.
But yeah, she's not thosethings, not at all.
She's just a nerdy mensch.
I don't know how to describeher.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah, she, she, she.
She's exactly someone who wouldbe friend Ella.
You know, there's a reason whyshe loves both with friend Ella.
Yeah, you know, like that youcan totally see that Um, and
then you can also see why shedid it right, like, I don't know
, she's just an angel for thejob of death, because it would
(06:04):
be someone gentle, um, and andto, like, I don't know, get
interested in individuals whilestill having having some
distance.
I don't know, I just like ifshe looked like what we expected
, you know, like grim reapertype thing that would be too
scary.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well, also, I think, because of the cosmology of the
show, you know that that thegreat before and the great after
, you know the great beyond areboth actually like when we, when
we have that full scope in ourminds, like death is actually
just a transition, it's notactually an end, and so it makes
(06:44):
sense that it's not this likethat, it's more this Azrael and
less maze, which is you know,sort of what's expected with a
demon blade and whatever is inline to with Neil Gaiman
storytelling.
I just mentioned Sandman, which,now that the new series is
available on Netflix, I'm partway through no spoilers, y'all,
(07:05):
although I read the graphicnovel, so I guess I guess I've
already spoiled it for myself.
But one of the things that'sreally interesting to me that
I've been thinking about withAzrael and death is that, like
both actually are needed inGaiman's cosmology, like the one
like death from the Sandman isactually there at the moment of
death, then it's Azrael's job totake the soul to wear it where
(07:30):
its final spot is, finaldestination.
Yeah, which I think is reallyinteresting that those two jobs
are different.
But both of those charactersAzrael in this series and Death
in the original in the Sandmanseries are actually really like
open and friendly andcompassionate women in this case
(07:53):
, and so I'm appreciating thatfrom the mind of Neil Gaiman.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Yeah, I can recall.
I have not read all of Sandman,I've only read the first few
series.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I read them but it was 20 years ago, I think volume
Because they were originallyout like the actual comics.
But then they were.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I read them in volumes, yeah yeah, I read the
first volume and I can recallthere's a point where Sandman
follows Death on her, and not awhole lot has really stuck with
me, but that like the man whosays Shma and the child.
(08:35):
She says that's all I got.
And she's like sorry, it's howit goes sometimes.
It's how it goes sometimes,yeah, and that's like just
really stuck with me, alsobecause she is so patient, she's
very gentle with the baby.
It's a terrible break, I'msorry.
And then the man who says look,it never occurred to me that I
(08:58):
would actually say the Shma, butI'm glad I had a chance to do
it.
So yeah, it was.
And for those who don't know,the Shma is the prayer that
every Jew is supposed to sayupon waking, upon going to bed.
And is it just before death oris it on the day of your death?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Ideally it would be the final words on your lips,
and so I have seen, like it'skind of adorable, like Orthodox
children at like a water park,like say it at the top of the
slide in case they die on theslide because it's meant to be
the final.
I'm sorry that's not funny, butI just think it's adorable.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it is the central prayer ofthe way that the faith has
(09:41):
turned into a religion.
Yeah, essentially so it's.
The one hero is real, the Lord,your God.
The Lord is one.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was going to bring us to.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
That's what I was going to bring us to.
Yeah, so Ray Ray, yeah, I loveher.
Cat sweater Adorable, adorablenickname.
Cat sweater I am adorable aswell.
The whole costuming for her wasjust wonderful.
There's something reallycompelling to me about the way
when she explains to Lucifer inthe last scene, like how she
(10:15):
only ever gets to interact withthem when they're dead humans, I
mean and they're so morose andlike Ella was such a different,
you know, just a Ray Ray, uh-huh.
Yeah, there was somethingreally compelling about that,
especially within the context ofthis show where we've seen
these celestials repeatedly kindof start at arm's length and
(10:37):
kind of like condescend tohumans and then grow to really
appreciate and love us and so tohave the angel of death sort of
name that you know, that likehow much more alive we are when
we're alive, which is I don'tknow.
It was satisfying to me forthat.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
I also appreciated that the episode starts with
Ella arriving at the crime scene.
Yes, and so we get to see awarning routine, basically, and
know that her chippiness is andher connection with all the
people.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
I have to say, though , overthinking it Like, how does
she know all that stuff?
Like what did we?
Like?
I was led to believe and maybeI misperceived it that we were
watching her arrive at the crimescene for the first time, but
then she already knows all thisstuff about what's happening.
Like, did she come back to it?
Did we miss something that wasmissing in the montage?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I think that was the montage, and then I think it was
when you were supposed to havelike shooting pictures and then
like time passed before.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm too, I'm too, I'm too literal, like I wish they
had actually said two hourslater, and then I could have,
like, followed.
I don't know, I was like.
That was like an overthinkingmoment for me.
It was a little bit problematic, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, yeah, I get that, I get that.
What kind of work Like with theflash and everything.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That's one of my least favorite.
Actually Luciferisms is thedick pic joke.
I don't know.
I mean there was that other.
There was one episode where hetalked about the roosters, the
prize roosters website Maybesending it there, but I don't
know that I don't.
(12:28):
I appreciate and enjoy thesexual Lucifer, but the grass
Lucifer, the dick pics, I don'tlike that.
Like I think part of his, forme, part of his appeal is the
elegance, and obviously elegancecan be sexualized.
(12:49):
But there's nothing elegantabout dick pics.
I just don't.
I it's my least favorite jokeabout him.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, fair enough.
It's also like at this pointthat's a leaning into like the
adolescent humor because he iskind of an overgrung teenager.
But we're three years in, he'skind of past that at least at
work.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, and especially because.
Then what is that?
That?
The consequences of dick picson the forensics camera.
Ella is the one who's going topay the price for that, not him.
So yeah, that did not land well.
Yeah, and the suit he's wearingthat tan brown suit with the
(13:40):
blue Awful, awful, not a fan.
It's sort of like baby diarrheabrown, it's not good.
Yeah, it's sanitarium when Iwear brown it's hard to find
something isn't flattering onTom Ellis, but they managed with
that color.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
We know.
Yeah, yeah, but let's talk alittle bit about the case.
Yeah, sure, oh, I haven'toverthink that.
Okay, the way they found thecase is Beckett the scamming 14
year old girl was not actuallytaking her tears because she's
allergic to freesia.
And so Chloe goes to interviewthe mother, who wears a freesia
(14:24):
perfume, but she hadn't beenthere.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Right, well, presumably it was all over her
family.
Yeah, the kid had been there.
Yeah, yeah, it's a littletenuous, yeah, so, especially
because the report from Dan wasthat the place reeked of it,
which would imply that themother herself had been there,
(14:49):
when in fact it was the dad.
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
I think that's fair.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It could have been.
Just, you know like this isalready shown to be kind of an
unpleasant 14-year-old kid, andso when she reeked of it, true,
she could have just said thatbecause it was enough to trigger
her knowledge.
Yeah, that's the story of Danlosing back at the end of the
story and then losing her,losing back at it was weird,
(15:15):
like it felt like it's flagssponsor the show, because I
really don't understand.
It was just.
It was very, very odd.
Not that it was the kid gettingaway from Dan and playing him,
like that.
I'm totally down with havingthat story line.
(15:39):
I think it's an interestingstory, particularly where it
gets to where he finally getsthrough to her and she's like
this is serious and you knowit's okay if you make a mistake.
That's a whole six-flag thing.
And then when they needed Maysto track her down but they
didn't they really needed herfor a ride, like like they just
(16:00):
didn't have the brain in dragher down.
They just went back to watch,like they got in the box and
then they wouldn't have had Maysmaking fun of them, although
Mays' reaction was mmm, yeah,that was good.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I think for the mirroring that they do, they
needed Lucifer to make a mistakethat even Lucifer would admit
was a mistake, and so losing thekid and having her steal his
car, I think after havingroasted Dan for the same mistake
.
I mean, that was thestorytelling function that it
serves, so that at the end, whenhe confronts Azrael and she
(16:38):
says nobody's perfect, okay,fair enough.
Yeah, that was like the wickedthat that story knocked over.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Yeah, I'm just realizing how thick this episode
is because we have to hurryyeah.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
And LS.
So like I don't know, I'm anormie.
I mean that's a normal person.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
A normal person.
So I recently took my youngest,my eight year old, to a
Renaissance fair here inWisconsin, and in the time since
you and I went to Renaissancefairs, we were teenagers in the
90s and now you're in a fineLuciferese at the Renaissance
fair, which makes sense.
(17:23):
I just it was new to me and wewere in the Kings and Queens,
like Meadow, whatever they callit, and there was a knight fully
dressed in a furry costume andarmor, and it wasn't armor, it
was like a.
It was like a king that had hada.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
But but a furry.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Not a shield on it, but okay, but a furry.
Okay, like fully Uh-huh.
And my son was like, oh, that'sgone, let's get on.
And then like the, the furry Idon't remember what he did, but
like he did a bow or somethinglike that.
And then he's the, the mouthopened and closed, and he's like
, oh, that's pretty cool, we'repretty fancy.
And my son was just like, oh,how'd you do that?
(18:05):
And then the mouth opened andclosed again and he's like I'm
so excited.
I was like all right, in 20years, if he is going to furry
conventions.
I'll know what the origin storyis.
Which I won't hide except thatI know that they've got a Nazi
(18:27):
problem on my furry community.
So that's, if there's not aNazi problem in most every
community, yeah, yeah, like someof my little ponies have a.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I know the bronies, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
So anyway, that was a long time ago, just that, you
know, I, I, I find the furryphenomenon unique, interesting
in a way that I like, because Ijust can't wrap my head around
it.
But I also, I love me some somelike business.
So, like like I would, I can'tsee myself ever.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's too much effort for you, em.
There's like there's no way,like I mean, you and I can
barely be bothered to like youknow, I don't know brush our
hair for this show.
Like we're not going to, like,maintain a costume like that.
I mean, I would get it.
(19:24):
Yeah Well, I can't brush mybecause it would take the curls
out, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I noticed in the scene where, where I was wearing
the the Wesley furry costume atsome point when there's having
the fight, there's a little girlthere wearing a unicorn onesie
of the kind that I desperatelywant when I'm like that is the
kind of thing I can get, sothat's the level of effort that
you're willing to put into this.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
See, that's just it.
You know you secretly, you wantto be a furry, but the barriers
are just too high.
That's actually how I feelabout Goth.
I want to be Goth, but I do nothave the effort or attention to
do the work.
That's a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Well, and I'm also thinking like the thing over
your head.
It just that seems like itwould be so fun.
Yeah, Agreed, Agreed.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Not a fan, All right.
So I I know it was supposed tomake me laugh, but and and I
guess it did make me chuckle butthe fact that Lucifer knew the
angel of death was in townbecause Ella said smell you
later.
I mean especially because thatimplies that, like 10,000 years
(20:41):
ago or whatever, the angel ofdeath was already saying it.
Because they haven't spoken,They've been estranged since the
rebellion.
Yeah, that's, that's what we'reallowed to believe.
But all those eons ago, Azraelwas already saying or what
language Smell you later?
Like what?
(21:01):
Is it Benaromantic?
I don't know.
No, like some proto-SemiticErdu?
No, not Erdu.
Erdu's from the subcontinent?
Yeah, no, it would.
No, no.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
I'm, what am I thinking of?
The, the, the Indo like thatlanguage.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, yeah, some Indo-Semitic.
Yes, agreed, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
That's where I got Erdu with moving into, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
And her nickname was already Ray Ray back then.
Ray Ray Because she said whatyou're too cool to call me Ray
Ray now, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I, I now am like you, know what, I feel like you and
I need to figure out how to saysmell you later and see blue.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I, I actually can figure that out, I can figure
that out.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I know when it wouldn't be that difficult.
People is dead and thenredirected.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Exactly, exactly, and so I, I could just speak.
One of those speak to one ofthose.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Any of our 15 subscribers happen to be Israel.
Yeah, yeah, the the actual case.
Instead of it being areflection of Lucifer, it's a
reflection of Ella, this time,because she has to come to terms
with the fact that she'sdifferent and that's okay, in
(22:23):
the same way that the little boy, the, the violin player, is
different, and that's what makesan amazing.
Yeah, nice, so, which was,which was pretty cool and
storytelling wise and like it'sa solid episode.
Even with this, I hate me likeyou introduce a problem at the
(22:43):
very beginning of the episodethat, out of nowhere, that is
resolved by the end of theepisode is a very great event.
So like, oh, my little brotheris moving back to Detroit, so
I'm going to have to move backto Detroit, and you know they
needed an inciting incident,they needed like a reason for
(23:04):
Rare to come back, and you knowit's a well written episode.
That is just something I'm verysensitive to in stories where
it's just like you justintroduced this problem to
immediately solve it.
So in the same way, I reallyhate it in books where they try
(23:25):
to raise tension when killingoff a minor character you've
never met before by giving thatminor character immediate back
story before they die.
It's just like you know.
You haven't earned that.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Yeah, it's kind of like when you watch those those
elimination competition creativeshows.
My spouse and I have realizedthat if you learn a whole lot of
backstory about one of thecharacters, they're going home
that episode.
That's how it works.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
So it's just and it's a storytelling shortcut that
sometimes you need and I but Ilike I'm very sensitive to where
, like I feel like you haven'tearned this and I wish there had
been something like we've beenintroduced to a younger brother
before we know that she came outfor him in some ways.
(24:13):
I wish there had been somethingat some point earlier about the
possibility of him moving home.
Yeah, and you also want to saythat, in the sense of this
episode coming right after adevil of my word and
quintessential Deca-shark'sopposite order, always reaction
to Ella saying I see ghosts wasamazing and perfect and kind of
(24:39):
goes to show that, like what wewere talking about before, where
Ella is not so much aboutshipping Hecker or Deckerstar,
she just wants her really goodfriend, who she looks up to be
happy and so that really kind ofends.
It makes me because I know thatAmy Garcia is about same age as
the rest of the cast, but it'llbe allowed to be like I think
(25:03):
Ella is younger, yeah, and sobecause I know Amy Garcia is
about same age, it's I kind offorget sometimes that she's
supposed to be younger, but Ithink it's much clearer now Like
, oh no, there's definitely.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Like there's the hero worship aspect of it which Ella
is prone to, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
And also makes sense if she's.
I mean, I don't know, she's gota little brother, but she's got
bigger siblings, Right.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
So Diamond Cleaner is the older brother, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
But, like I know, as the youngest in our family, I
was prone to hero worship and Ithink that that's common among
younger siblings.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
So yeah, all right, let's talk about Once Upon a
Time, because we don't haveforever.
So, okay, I just want to say,as a huge Game and Fan, not as
big as they come.
For sure there are many who aremore dedicated.
I see you, and I think thatNeil Gaiman is among the best
(26:11):
storytellers of our generation.
He's such a great storytellerand that Gaiman put his stamp of
approval on this TV show byvoicing God is just so
satisfying on so many levels, soletter, Just so many levels,
(26:32):
that he agreed to voice, to dothe voiceover as God.
A little confusing now that Iknow Dennis Haysbert is God, but
I didn't know that when I waswatching it here.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
So just having said that, I just had this thought
Another one of the greateststorytellers of our generation
is Jordan Peele, and I justrealized I now need Neil Gaiman
and Jordan Peele.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Oh wow, that would be amazing.
That would be amazing.
That would be incredible.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Anyway, universe, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then also the meta messageat the end where it's like a
child, just a parent, wantswhat's best for their child,
best for their child.
And so that's God talking aboutLucifer, that's talking about
(27:21):
John Decker and Chloe Decker,but that's also Neil Gaiman
talking about his intellectualchild, and Gaiman has to say
there are so many people who arelike, oh, this is not.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh right, people want to gatekeep on Gaiman's work
and Gaiman he shuts that down.
No one gets to gatekeep Sandmanhe says no, which is the
original source material forthis Lucifer?
I am just so.
I mean, talk about hero worship, the guy just gets it and he
(27:56):
gets what art is and what it'sfor.
And yeah, I agree, I don't knowthat I made that connection
before, you just said it, butit's really, really deeply
resonating for me.
Yeah, yeah, there were thingsthat I liked very much about
this episode and there wereother things that just I don't
know, I don't know, it justwasn't Like Linda's cleavage.
(28:17):
Oh, I liked her cleavage.
I liked her cleavage.
I did not like her glasses.
Yeah, I didn't like her glasses.
They were very old fashioned,to like 1970s looking.
I also like I don't know, Ididn't really like where Linda
was.
I mean, I wasn't supposed tolike where Linda was in this
alternate universe.
What was?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
interesting to me about Linda in this alternate
universe is your game and, asGod says, you know you might
choose immoral, make immoralchoices that still have the same
conscience.
And it made me realize, becauseshe does things that are kind
of unethical in our universe,but never immoral, yeah, and
that that actually, like thatwas an interesting thing for me
(28:59):
to realize.
Like you know, she does for themost part was best for her
patients, with the possibleexception of sleeping with
Lucifer, but at the time itdidn't really matter for him,
right?
And then, once it did, shestopped Right, whereas what she
might have been doing in thatthat universe may have been
(29:20):
ethically okay I don't know, Imean ethically do be a personnel
it was definitely immoral, yeah, it was definitely not right
for her patients.
Yeah, yeah, I find her herstory arc is upsetting Dan and
Charlotte's interesting in thatthey in that universe they get a
(29:45):
happy ending, except that theydon't, because they'll both end
up in hell.
And you know, trixie obviouslydoesn't exist, right.
But there's a little part of methat's glad that in some
universe they get to have ahappy ending, even if he's awful
, if she's kind of awful, yeah,but there's something within him
(30:06):
and something within her thatfinds each other, in the same
way that there's somethingwithin Lucifer, something within
Chloe that finds each other, nomatter what universe they're in
.
I have to say, casting wise, theactor playing her dad.
The first time I saw this I waslike man, that makeup is
amazing, because I was certainly.
It was the same dude, exactlythe same actor who's actually
(30:31):
Leslie and Brant's husband.
Oh yeah, he plays John Deckeras a young man.
But well, that's a differentactor, like it's an older man,
and every time I see it I golike how is this guy?
I just like him and maybe if Iwatched them back to back like
you wouldn't think so.
I wouldn't think so, but everytime, like you look exactly like
John Decker.
(30:51):
Yeah, I appreciate that he isable at the end to say like this
is not about you.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's about me.
He's like the John Decker thatwe get here is very mature and
enlightened, or he gets to be atthe very end.
They give him a very, very,very nice yes in lightens,
although the way he treats herprior to that is pretty.
I know that's what I say.
He gets to be, he gets there.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
And that, like is rationale.
Actually, as a parent, makessense to me.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
No but yes, and she's supposed to be like 35.
I mean, I'm sorry, but youdon't get to say go home to your
35 year old daughter.
I mean, our dad's not sayinganything to us, so maybe I would
(31:49):
, I guess I would take it, Iguess I would take it.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, particularly since she's not clear on acting
being the right thing for her.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And the like your mom told me to remind you, to
remind them to film from yourbest side, like ew.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Well, and that's part of season one, when we first
meet Penelope.
Yeah, the overbearing stagemother, yeah, the overbearing
stage mother thing, and it'sjust like, yeah, I would hate
that so much.
Clearly she does.
(32:27):
I mean, one of the things Ithought that I really liked in
this alternate universe is whenthey're going after also, they
didn't go very far, but they'regoing after a guy stealing a
Porsche and Liz Fergo drives.
She's like no, I have literallybeen trained for this.
This is kind of cool becauseshe has been Like I'm sure she's
had some sort of drivertraining and stuff like that.
(32:50):
Although how much of that didthey actually have it for too?
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, the thing that bothered me is that she came to
the NASCAR set from this moviefranchise that I'm imagining is
like a cross between Fast andthe Furious and something else,
and she's using the character'sname and nobody but Lucifer
recognizes her.
(33:14):
I don't buy it.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, I was like why wouldn't she use a
different name?
But then you're like, oh, itprobably actually has a funny
genero written on it, so she'sfelt like she has to use that
name.
But you could just flash it andthen I don't.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
I mean it said Property of Warner Brothers On
the back exactly.
I don't that like yeah, thatgave me pause in my overthinking
that.
Like I mean, if Dwayne the RackJohnson or Vin Diesel showed up
at a you know at a race trackand tried to use his name from
the movies, like people would belike oh, it's Vin Diesel,
(33:53):
somebody besides Lucifer.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
The thing is, though I think she's supposed to be
like, still a relatively minorcharacter in the franchise.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I don't think so Not after five, like it's a whole
five movie.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah, and she uses the.
I don't know if you notice shehas the.
They have a lot of Easter eggsin there, so like she uses the
weaponizer tech trays on mywatch, yep.
And then at NASCAR they'responsored by Top Meet, which is
that Right?
That's the meeting.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
The singles, the dating app for rich people,
exclusive people, top hats, yeah, yeah, I just, I think,
especially because it's aweaponizer, which in our
universe is a successful likemartial arts franchise, like I
think she's meant to be a moviestar.
(34:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, she did goto Lux without crazy paparazzi.
So maybe I don't know, but Ithat feels like a piece that the
writers really just just justdo it, just go with it, just
work with us here.
She's a movie star who nobodyrecognizes.
I don't know, that happens,yeah.
(35:08):
Maybe all the NASCAR peoplehave face blindness or something
.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Well, maybe it's just that.
Well, I'm taking NASCAR.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
They would watch the weaponizer.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
They would watch the weaponizer.
I was like maybe there's nocode in the sauce or no other
stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Especially if it's like Fast and Furious, which is
the implication I got you knowwith the fancy car and stuff
that she was supposed to drivethe next day.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, I do want to like in thisuniverse.
How does Ella get?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
to watch on this universe?
Well, that's a great question.
I mean, her younger brother waslike stealing cars and stuff,
so maybe she still went with him.
It's just, instead of to takecare of him, she went to help
him.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Well, first of all, I love her look, oh my God, with
the tattoo sleeve and the like1940s.
Yeah, adorable, adorable.
And she had the big hoopearrings too.
Well, that was very likeleaning into the Latina.
I mean that is like a verystereotypical Latina look with
(36:15):
the big hoops.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
But it looks amazing with that kind of 1940s.
Oh my God, yeah, love that look.
And then it made sense thatthat would be who she was in an
alternate universe, like she'dbe just as nerdy, just a smart
and capable, smart and, yeah,just in a different direction.
(36:37):
And you know, I thought thatshe, like our elegant, protect
you.
It was amazing, I mean, if shewanted.
So, yeah, I really appreciatedthat there's just a very little
bit of a men's deal in thisepisode.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Because he's like he's presumably just flying
around waiting for this.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
It does give us a little bit of a glimpse into who
a men's deal is.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Without the influence of Lucifer and humans.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yes, and that he's the one who can be influenced by
as well, because he takes itand tries to take his advice and
and check it out.
Yeah and yeah, oh no.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
There's been some endearing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it'stime for some fluff.
Okay, because we've beentalking for like 40 minutes now.
Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah, okay, what fluff do you have?
I'm not sure I have.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Oh, shoot, okay.
So here's, here's like littlelittle purry and fluff.
I've seen when John Deckercatches up to Chloe and she's
like what is he doing?
He's been in the trailer for along time and then finally we
realize what he's doing, like heactually says yes, say my name,
which, which I'm blushing,which feels like I don't know.
(38:08):
It sort of doesn't feel likekeeping with Lucifer's like
sexual persona and I and at thesame time I found it totally too
late- she's a female.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
She reflects the other person's desires, and so,
if her desire, I mean she wasyelling his name.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Yeah, yeah, I guess, so, I guess, so, I don't know.
And then, and then, like thelike lipstick and like John and
John's, I pumped her For me yeah, oh, my God, yeah, that was,
(38:52):
that was.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
I also appreciated the way that John Decker
referred to him as a messy.
Oh, my club owner, please don'ttell me you're hanging out with
that guy Like, oh, and it'sworse.
I'm just like, yeah, that'sgoing to be like as embarrassing
as it'd be to be a 35 year oldwoman have your dad say go home.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
I mean, at least it wasn't Chloe and Chloe and have
yeah, I guess, oh, my goodness.
And then then he was like she'sher ankle and I guess the other
(39:39):
little piece of fluff is liketo make sure we knew it was an
alternate universe.
The Corvette was red, rightLike when Spock had the mustache
.
It was evil but like theyshowed us in that throwback
prequel episode when he stolethe Corvette it was black and
(40:04):
like John, not getting shotwouldn't have changed the color
of the car, maybe had a pain.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, john, not getting shot with no effect of
Ella, true, I mean, it's one ofthose butterfly effect things.
So instead of it being theblack car, like it, was what he
found it was, it was a red, true, yeah, okay, so cuz you, yeah,
okay.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Also very convenient that he happens to be wearing
the waistcoat.
It just wasn't the vest, itjust wasn't buttoned up.
So he like buttoned it to coverthe but the build the bullet
holes like that was veryconvenient.
Also as I mentioned, with thebullets the Charlotte took
excellence.
I Mean, does his celestial bodyjust like absorb the lead and,
(41:01):
like I don't know, turning itinto energy or something, or
like are there holes in the backof his blazer?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Well, I'm imagining like it gets through the shirt
and then stops with his skin,and it was sort of false.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Okay, so you have to like, clean him out of his belt.
I.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Don't remind me of one thing about John Decker
being overprotective After yougot a bullet that he survived.
It's also much moreunderstandable why he would push
Chloe away from the idea.
So it's becoming a cop, yeah,after that.
Yeah, agreed.
And I do like the way that thevoiceover by Neil Gaiman is said
(41:59):
.
It's Hard to say whether he'ssaying like, the move the bullet
, and it's this is the alternateuniverse for you move the
bullet and that's like I don'tknow there's, there's a little
bit of oh, you mean, like hemade John die, oh yeah which and
I was trying to think thatbecause I just read something
(42:20):
from one saying about like, oh,that's not okay.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
I'm like that is not how I heard it.
I heard this is an alternateuniverse where he didn't die, or
John's.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
But in order for this ultimate universe to happen,
god did have to interfere andmove the bullet which presumably
God could have done in ouruniverse.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, yeah, which is kind of.
I mean, that is the ultimateCosmological dilemma.
If God is good, you know, ifGod is great, then God can't be
good.
And if God is good, then Godcan't be great, because why
would God let all this happen?
Yeah, yeah, I have to go.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Now I am being summoned, all right, yeah, I'm
going to be imagining likeLucifer, just like shaking
bullets out of his waistband.
I can't like because he walkedNice.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
I like it, I like it.
All right, see you next week.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin
McLeod from incompetentcom,licensed under creative commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theurl.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(43:42):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
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