February 15, 2024 • 42 mins
“Everything’s Okay” and “Somebody’s Been Reading Dante’s Inferno” contain one of the sexiest scenes in the whole series, some really comprehensible character behavior, and some mediocre delivery of that behavior.
The sisters spend a disproportionate amount of time gushing over the first several minutes of “Everything’s Okay,” only to ease into an almost grudging appreciation for the task the writers set themselves by requiring the details of the cases in the procedural to map to the drama of the central characters.
Because of Chloe’s (Lauren German) instance to Father Kinley (Graham Mctavish) that “you just don’t know him like I do,” Tracie has the painful realization that Lucifer (Tom Ellis) has been (arguably?) emotionally abusive to Chloe.
In a series of duck-related tangents, the sisters reference the Marx Brothers (Why a duck?), a song about a duck who wants a grape, Duck Tales, and Darkwing Duck (the latter of which may show up on a future episode of Deep Thoughts about Stupid Sh*t).
CW: Abstract discussion of abusive, co-dependent relationships.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken she
does not use a hyphen and I'mhere with my sister, tracy
Guy-Dekker she does use a hyphen, and together this is
Lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we are overthinking it, so much overthinking.
(00:40):
I'm really excited for today'sepisode we are breaking into.
I started to say the bestseason, but actually I don't
want to say that.
Just a really good season.
We're starting season four.
We're starting season four.
So today, is it your favoriteseason?
Is it your favorite?
Season two and four are myfavorite and I think part of why
(01:03):
I like season four is that it'sa lean, mean ten episode
machine.
You know it.
Just, it gets in, it gets thejob done, all right.
So starts off with four-oh-oneand four-oh-two.
Everything is okay.
No, everything's okay.
Apostrophe S and somebody'sbeen reading Dante's Inferno.
(01:25):
So it starts off with thisamazing montage of Tom Ellis as
Lucifer singing Radiohead.
I'm a creep and it's amazing.
So that was written for us.
I mean, we were in high schoolin the 90s and that was, that
(01:48):
was our song.
That was when we were feelinglow and, as Chloe says at the
end, like I used to listen tothe song when I was in high
school and I was feeling lost.
I'm like you were a littleyoung for that, according to the
show, but yes, yep, exactly, wewere there when that song
debuted, and yeah, so it startsoff there.
(02:10):
And then, oh sorry, really welldone the montage, yeah, showing
how time has passed, andactually the.
I saw that the director of theshow is Sherwin Shalati, I think
is his name, who is also thedirector and I only remember
this because someone mentionedit on AV Club or something Also
(02:31):
the director of Till Death to UsPart, which is the episode that
you really love, with Pierceand Lucifer going undercover as
a American company, and thenalso God Johnson, which has that
amazing montage oh yeah, thoseare great episodes, all three of
those.
Yeah, I think Sherwin has a realskill for the montage that says
(02:53):
more than you would expect.
Just a few seconds of airtimeto show.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The changing colors, the changing clothes, clothing
and the background and thepeople in the club listening,
yeah, and speaking of suits, thelast one that he's wearing is
this classic black suit, whiteshirt, red, red, pocket square
yeah, I noticed that too, andthe color in the backdrop, like
(03:21):
that.
It's like a abstracted cityscene, I think, sort of.
I've seen it suggested that itlooks like a throne and so it
kind of or foreshadows or like a.
I hear that it also sort of hasa mandala effect, you know with
sort of like potentially likeabstracted wings kind of behind
him.
(03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's good and in that very first, after that montage,
that very first scene with MrSetout bitch and his cronies,
his minions, we start to seeactually I think I mentioned
this before we started recordingI feel like our writers are
giving us a foreshadow of therest of the series really, but
(04:03):
especially this season, aboutsort of second chances and
redemption arcs and sort of like.
But you're more than a thief,you know that sort of thing.
Yeah, it was reallyforeshadowing and I don't think
I didn't find it heavy handedLike.
I found it like amusing enoughthat like I didn't, I wasn't
like all right, okay, even inrewatch I enjoyed it, especially
(04:26):
when Lee is just like uh, can Ijust go now?
And then when he gets MazeCross she's like stop, it's
totally normal.
Well, that actor, I'm very gladwe get to see more of him in
(04:50):
season five because I feel likethat actor he's got amazing
comedic timing, like he does areally good job of that.
But there's also like there'sthe pathos.
He's capable of pathos as welland and it's like the moment
turns on a dime because he goesfrom like being terrified to
being like super confused.
I particularly like all right,fine, since you went without
(05:12):
pants.
Right, that's the time we met.
Here's mine, right, right.
And then we get view of what wesomebody called I think maybe
it was AB Club the MVP of theseason.
He's the most, he's the most,although his abs, I think, are I
mean they, they get a closesecond.
(05:33):
Yeah, yeah, an honorablemention.
Yeah, really the whole torso,because he did he did a lot of
work on his shoulders and chestas well.
So Also, our writers note thathe's naked from the waist down
when Mays comes up and is like,oh hello, stranger, like looking
(05:53):
at a scratch, no.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I found that adorable .
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I loved that.
Yes, even though I am, as aviewer, sometimes uncomfortable
with the recognition that he andMays slept together many times.
I'm going to make it moreuncomfortable when we meet
Lilith, but I'll wait until weget there.
Oh gosh, I don't even knowabout that.
I'll wait until we get there.
I'll wait.
I don't want to think aboutthat.
I'm holding it.
(06:22):
It's an ace in my sleeve.
Okay, so let's move into the.
I mean, we're stuck in thefirst five minutes of the
episode.
I know Well, because it's anexcellent five minutes, it
really is.
Well, let's talk about the case.
So something that I have beenrethinking and overthinking as
we've been doing this project isconsistently, people will say
(06:46):
that the case of the week is theweakest part of the show, and I
don't think that's wrong.
And we've talked about the factthat it's a procedural, which is
, you know, such a common way totell stories to the point where
, like when you first werereading, like criticism, you're
like, well, why wouldn't it be aprocedural?
What else would it be Right?
Yeah, but I have been thinkinglately about the creative
(07:11):
challenge that the show runnershave given themselves of making
sure that the case of the weekalways ties back to the
characters and sometimes thatworks well and sometimes it
works less well.
But I was thinking about it alot in terms of this case and I
think in part because by thetime I got to season four, the
first time I watched it I waslike I went from, you know, I
(07:32):
was watching one or two episodesa night to like clearing my
schedule and so I was not seeingthe parallels as much because I
was watching it so like popcorn, just like consuming it.
Yeah, I mean, I unhinged my jawand swallowed the episodes and
(07:53):
thinking about both just fromthe creative side, like how cool
that is that the writers didthat and created something that
allowed them to tell thesestories, anchoring it on
something that was going to getgreen lit by Fox and then saved
on Netflix, but then also beingable to tell these really
(08:13):
interesting stories about thehuman condition, using crime as
the central metaphor.
I still think that it couldhave been cool without that, but
considering the box they werein, I appreciate what they've
done with it.
And then, especially withinthis episode, the case is about
a second chance, right?
(08:33):
Okay, so Bob the Knob.
Bob the Knob Got to have asecond chance, to have a
different life from who he hadbeen, and he slipped up.
He glenned the other honey.
Pervayer, pervayer, apervayer,aperi, aperi, I don't know.
Beekeeper, bee guy, beekeeper.
(08:55):
He did not deserve to be hitwith a bag of doorknobs.
Who does that?
Who does that?
Yeah, did not deserve that.
But that doesn't mean that Bobthe Knob deserved to die or that
his wife would feel differentlyabout him.
I can't imagine she would befurious at him, but she wouldn't
(09:19):
want him out of her life.
Maybe I mean, and she didn't,she didn't get a chance.
I found that really interestingbecause, as we're talking about
second chances and at one pointeven Lucifer's like well, he's
trying.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And this is more than you're doing Slip up.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's more than you're doing.
Yeah, and the place ofrighteous indignation that the
Marshall stands on is verysimilar to Father Kinley's place
of right indignation.
More so in the future, right,in future episodes, we will see
Father Kinley follow theMarshall precisely in these two
(09:56):
episodes.
We don't see it yet.
I think, not quite, not quite.
Well, I think we see a littlebit in the second episode.
I mean a little bit, but it'shard to know what I don't
already know.
Right, you know, right, I, yeah, I think in these two episodes
in first watch I'm not sure thatyou would see the parallel with
Father Kinley and the Marshall.
Yet it definitely gets there infuture episodes in this season.
(10:18):
Yeah, and you know, all we knowabout Father Kinley in this
first episode is that he andChloe know each other.
There's something that they'replanning to do together and that
she's really conflicted about.
Yeah, so, but we're also seeing, you know she's she's coming
(10:38):
back saying everything's okayand clearly is not.
You know that recoil from fromLucifer, which was nothing
Agreed, it was terrible, it wasreally terrible.
It was like, yeah, agreed.
You know I'm not a huge germfan.
(11:00):
I think that actually thisseason is part of why, but
moments in this season, thatbeing one of them, yeah, I just,
I just, you just didn't feel it.
I didn't believe it, I didn't,yeah, I just.
You know the director was likeokay, so like you're actually
scared when he touches you, butI didn't, it felt.
(11:25):
It felt like a performance.
Yes, it was like it was for thecheap seats.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, exactly, and that's it just did.
When you've got someone who'sthe master of subtlety, right,
right, maybe, yeah, maybe thatperformance would have worked
against a different actor ifLucifer played by someone other
than Ellis.
Yeah, yeah, anyway, that said,the characters, fear and
(11:54):
response makes complete sense,total sense.
Total sense, especially when weget to, when we realize that
someone that we thought wetrusted, in fact like a, you
know, sociopath or a narcissistor whatever, the sort of the
charismatic Machiavelli, it's soconfusing and hard to like
figure it out and that's just alike, standard, typical human
(12:19):
way of being.
So to have that kind ofconfusion on top of the.
The like Celestials are realand this is the literal double.
Yeah, it would be.
I found the characters behaviorcompletely comprehensible, well
(12:39):
and particularly, and so we'llget into the second episode with
this particularly with knowingthat she's got father Kinley
whispering in her ear and we are, because we've been on this,
this journey, for three years,now four years.
We know that Lucifer is notwhat Kinley is saying.
He is, but he seems to be anexpert, he is gentle and kind
(13:04):
and and you know is is usingarguments that seem
unimpeachable.
I mean, they're photographs ofthe man, of the man she knows
with Nazis.
Yeah, so you know, yeah, and Ido appreciate her response when
he says you know, whenever hecomes to Earth, death and
destruction follows.
And she's like, hmm, that'scircumstantial evidence of best,
(13:26):
yeah, his response well, that'sa lot of circumstantial
evidence.
And then I was thinking like,well, how do you?
Death and destruction follows,like that's the human condition.
So like, how do you know what?
What parentheses to put aroundhis time on?
Yeah, and compare it to whenhe's not on it?
(13:46):
Right, what is the control inthis, in this comparison?
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's interesting, though,because she's like, no, I will
not accept that circumstantialevidence.
And then later, is it the sameepisode when she's like if it
walks like a duck and it talkslike a duck, it probably murders
like a duck.
It's like she's accepted his.
(14:07):
I think it's like when I'mjustifying what she's doing with
this additive yes, yes, I thinkthat's what it is.
Is that?
Is she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
She needs something to believein, and so you know.
All right, it's gonna be a loteasier if I can just say like,
if they are what they seem to be, then that's enough, and that
(14:31):
also, I feel like, is veryrealistic and human, even among
someone who requires as muchevidence as Chloe does and who
is as good a detective as she is.
She has gotten the shock of herlife and it's like global and
personal.
Yeah, right, right, it's notjust global, it's cosmological.
(14:53):
Yeah yeah, and that walks like aduck, murders like a duck.
That's in the second, that's inthe Don.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Decker one.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, yes, cause that's the reality TV, it's the
reality TV show one, yeah, yeah,and that's.
I can completely comprehendthat, like if you're trying to
convince yourself to dosomething you don't want to do,
finding, yeah, unrelated things.
It's interesting too, though,in that episode, in that second
episode, where she has a genuinereaction with the fireball,
(15:25):
with the gas explosion, andshe's like, no, you know, when
she thinks he's gonna be hurt,like she genuinely cares for him
, which is not as a reason, weknow that, but it's interesting
that our writers had that comethrough after her, trying to
convince herself that if itwalks like a duck and talks like
a duck, then it probablymurders like a duck.
That was an interesting moment,and actually I think you had a
(15:48):
good point before we startedrecording about her confusion in
that bit.
Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, Ibinged, particularly when I got
to season four, and I didn'treally take in her confusion
about the fact that he'svulnerable sometimes and not
(16:11):
others.
And so when she gets angry athim after she breaks the wine
glass and he's bleeding, and shegets angry and she's like are
you doing this on purpose?
Are you trying to make me careabout you.
This is the first time I reallytook it in, like, oh yeah, that
would be really confusing.
Like you know, he walked out ofa fiery inferno, fine, and, but
(16:34):
you know a little bit of a cutglass and he's bleeding and so
is he doing.
Is this a manipulation, right?
Especially since Kimley hassuggested he will do whatever it
takes to charm her and, like,make these little adjustments.
And she's even just said, no,white devil claw from the Pierce
episode when he was trying to.
Yes, and he said, well, thatdidn't go over so well, so I
made adjustments, like, so heeven sort of, in his language,
(16:57):
kind of corroborated Kimley'sstory.
So, yeah, that confusion makesa lot of sense and I agree with
you.
I'm not sure that I fullycomprehended her lack of
comprehension about when she's,when he is.
Well, I think it was because inone of those, because it has
(17:17):
been such a like a central,tenet of this, but it was a
piece of traumatic irony.
Yeah, well, we knew, but shedidn't.
Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, that final,almost final scene of that one
with the axe.
Oh my God, I've watched thatscene many times, so many times
(17:41):
it that I don't know what itsays about my psychology and
conditioning, that thatvulnerability is so friggin sexy
.
It really is so sexy.
What she's got, like I don'twant her to hurt him, but like
when she's like no, so I couldhurt you.
And he's just like, yes, like Idon't know, it's hot, it's
(18:05):
really hot.
Yeah, yeah, I will.
And the fact that, like when,when she's like, but you, you,
you jumped in front of it anywayto save me.
Yes, and I would do it again.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Like you jumped in front of it yes and again.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yes, and do it again and again, and again.
And don't you know that by now?
And it's just like yeah, Apuddle, yeah, that scene.
My spouse came in while thatscene was on and I was just like
do not say a word to ruin this.
So my spouse was also watchingwith me and they kept asking me
(18:38):
questions and I was likeseriously, I cannot do this with
you.
Why is she doing that?
What is happening?
Where do they?
Why doesn't she?
What's with the bottle?
What's?
Stop talking.
I love you, Go away.
I feel like your spouse and myyoungest need to sit together at
(19:04):
movies and I think thosemoments are part of why we have
such affection for season four.
Because you know, it's not justthat.
There's that moment which isjust hot, which is again like,
(19:25):
Right, I don't want to Like, I'mnot going to lay down on the
couch with Linda, with mytherapist.
Yeah, I will, but not here.
But there's that, and thenthere's also the dawning
realization on Chloe's part ofwho he is and what he has done
for her, which she never fullyunderstands.
(19:47):
She never really understood.
I don't think she even does,even through season 6.
I don't think she ever fullyunderstands, like when he died
and went to hell to get the likeall of the things and the deal
he made when Malcolm killed him,like so many things.
I don't think she ever fully Imean, I don't know.
(20:09):
Anyway, but this is the firsttime she has, she's starting to
see it, yeah, and then I thinkit's also interesting that this
comes immediately after thefirst episode, the scene where
he's keeping the car fromgetting away, which is like
genuinely kind of terrifyingBecause he's doing something
(20:30):
that is physically impossible,humanly impossible, and like
roaring, and you know now sheknows who he is and what he is.
And so the contrast between thevulnerability of having that axe
against his chest versus, likeyou know, his hole in his hand
(20:51):
but he's still able to hold onto a SUV, which is another one
of those moments where, like thewriters just seem to like
whatever serves if he hassuperhuman strength when she's
around or not.
Yeah, anyway, I mean, if heself-actualizes, I guess I can
sort of he needed it in thatmoment and so he self-actualized
(21:13):
the strength in that moment,yeah, yeah, and he must also
heal very quickly because he hada hole in his hand Like you
could look through it.
Right, they showed us that.
They showed him look through it.
Yeah, oh, speaking of.
Actually it's almost like ourwriters were retroactively
listening to or whatever in thefuture, because our last episode
(21:39):
we talked about like why aren'tthere exit wounds?
And like the bullets like inhis pants.
There weren't, and we saw thatthere were bullet holes in the
back of his shirt, but the frontof his shirt was fine, so yeah.
So he once walked around withbullets in his clothes.
We should have heard them gobing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
(22:00):
bing, bing, bing, bing, or theydissolve in his celestial body.
But you know, no exit wounds.
So, yeah, I actually because wehad just talked about it in our
last episode I noticed thatspecifically.
So when a menadil is at thecoffee shop and he, like, sidles
up next to somebody, is thatHildi?
(22:20):
You know who that is?
That was.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Hildi right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It's Hildi, it's Hildi, like I'm an Hildi Hi
Hildi, if you ever see this, welove you.
I actually want to talk realquick about it's so on the nose,
but it's perfect.
In the same way that I feellike him seeing creep is so on
the nose and yet perfect that heput on 90s jams for her because
(22:44):
he knows that's her favoritemusic.
And poison, poison that girl isalways and it's like and I love
that song, I love that song.
Like he makes fun of her tasteBelle Biv DeVoe, right, I think
that's Belle Biv DeVoe Now.
Belle Biv DeVoe Now, you know,they were just a big button
(23:05):
smile.
That girl is poised, okay, okay, okay, so he makes fun of her,
so he makes fun of her.
But you know, like that'sactually that's a good song.
It's a weird song for a romanticnight, but you know he's the
weird dude.
He's a weird dude.
It's one of those where, likeit would never be like that in
(23:30):
real life and yet I love it.
You know, like the coincidenceof it being the song poison,
while she's trying to poison him, she's trying to roofie the
devil, right?
Why is it going to be in likethat?
Like, very like snow whitewicked witch.
Since the middle ages we've hadthis bottle of sacred roofies.
(23:55):
We've been prepping for thissince the 14th century here.
Well, it's just like a preparethe holy hand grenade, prepare
the holy roofies.
And like, actually, when myspouse was like asking, I was
like I don't remember the playhow was she supposed to poison
the?
Like?
It was a sedative and he wasgoing to perform an exorcism,
(24:18):
but but Lucifer wasn't I, hewasn't possessing anyone.
The thing is, I think that mightbe what Kinley told her and he
was actually just going to killhim.
Oh, okay, well, maybe we'llfind out.
So I think it's reallyinteresting.
She's been telling her likethis guy is manipulating you and
(24:39):
then at the end she's like youknew that he was vulnerable
about around me and he was likeyeah, I suspected so.
Like she doesn't know who totrust, right, Like that came
home to me more strongly in thissavoring than when I benched it
, because I also did the samething and just watched them all
at once and just the degree towhich.
(25:00):
Like she just can't trustanyone or doesn't know who she
can trust, because she doesn'tknow if she can trust her own
instincts.
At this point I feel likerealizing that Kinley must have
known that she made himvulnerable is what made her
decide, not that she wouldn'twork with him anymore.
(25:20):
Yeah, because if he had beenhonest with her about that, she
he might have been able toconvince her.
But because he tried tomanipulate her, I mean, maybe,
or maybe I mean that would have,which is why he didn't tell her
.
Because that changes, itchanges the calculus To what you
think of her, yeah, yeah, andwhat her role is or should be.
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate, like they do, good villains
(25:45):
for the most part in the show,and Father Kinley is up there
with Malcolm as one of myfavorites, and it's partially
because he choose the scenerysomewhat too, not yet, yeah,
well, I'm remembering as I'mwatching that, like when I just
watched it, I didn't, it didn't.
So like this actor is reallygood, like we're going to get to
see him with differentpersonalities, which is really
(26:07):
cool, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, I don't want to get aheadof ourselves, but yeah, all
right, let's talk about,actually like the Kinley-Cloé
conversation, because I think wehave talked before about some
of the metaphors for mentalillness in this show and this is
a, you know, a key one thatcomes up again and again, like
(26:28):
if they, if, if this person thatI care about learn to I really
am, then they're going to runaway, which literally happens,
and so it's hard for him totrust when she comes back.
I'm getting away from myself.
I want to talk about the factthat, with that in the
background, this conversationthat Kimmy and Chloe are having,
where Chloe's like no, youdon't know him, like I know him,
(26:50):
is a little potentiallyproblematic, right, because it's
sort of the way that abusedpeople, especially women, talk
about their abusers, right, thatsort of apology for abusers you
just don't know him the waythat I know him.
That's a common way that theabused talk about their abusers
(27:12):
when they are in that sort ofcodependent kind of a
relationship.
And I don't fault our writersfor having her say that, because
it is true, and he hasn'tabused her.
Well, he hasn't physicallyabused her.
I mean, some of the ways thathe's like pulling her near and
(27:34):
pushing her away are sort ofemotionally abusive.
Yeah, I was going to say theyweren't intentionally so, but
impact and are not the same yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Can I just say ouch, I didn't,I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I was going with that .
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I don't like that.
So this is going to sound.
I'm not saying the writers gavethemselves a fig leaf by making
Kinley nefarious, but he was.
He does not actually haveChloe's best interests at heart
and the people who do like Danaren't telling her what to do.
(28:20):
So, like Dan is taking asimilar stance where it's just
like what other secrets is hekeeping that we don't know?
How can you forgive?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
him for trusting her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, because, and that, yeah, that is how like the
suggestions are for if you havea loved one who is in an
abusive relationship, how tokeep the channels open while
planting seeds that you know youdeserve better than this.
Yeah, although I like the showmakes it clear that Dan is also
(28:51):
right.
Dan is not particularlysympathetic right now.
No, except that he is.
I mean that the moment likewhen, if you view the whole
context, he certainly is, he'sbeen through a lot and the
people he relied on the mostwere absent, but you still just
the actual like while he's onscreen.
(29:12):
I'm not like, oh, sam, you knowwell, in that moment between
him, I get it, I get it.
It's just in the back of myhead.
I'm thinking he's lost someonewho, whether or not it would
have been true, he believed wasthe love of his life.
And then his ex-wife, who isalso a friend, and his daughter
(29:34):
left for a month without sayinganything.
Well, we don't know if theysaid anything.
Yeah, yeah, he's still Lee, forsure, he's still Lee left and
his closest male friend, as faras we know yeah, as far as we
know that he did go withoutsaying a word and without yeah
for no calls because they don'thave telephone.
(29:55):
So he had been sort of friendlywith Lucifer but it was a weird
relationship.
But he's holding Luciferresponsible for Charlotte staff,
which is understandable, andthat like that, that moment when
Menendale says she's in heavenand he immediately is like don't
?
I completely understand that.
(30:17):
That's one of the.
The way that a Menendaleresponds is lovely and Dan does
get at least a moment of peacewhen he gets, when he hugs him.
He's like you know what?
I kind of believe you, that'sjust, that's meaningful, it's
lovely and meaningful.
And, yeah, the thing that I'mthinking that's a.
It's never brought up, but itjust occurred to me.
(30:38):
Like you know, at one pointKinley says to Chloe we can't do
this without you prior to herlearning that she makes Lucifer
vulnerable and I was thinkingthis time at the end, when she
was leaving.
Oh, he said it.
I think he said it again, but hesaid it when she says I know,
(30:59):
and that's, oh, yeah, no no, nohe says it to her twice because
he says we can't do this withoutyou, or like we need you for
this or something like that.
And I had this thought, likemight it occur to Chloe that
like wouldn't it make sense togo talk to Ella?
Since she is Catholic, she'salready like that.
She might be asking yourselfwhy Kinley didn't, like she's
(31:22):
similarly close to Lucifer Imean, not the same kind of
closeness, but similarly close.
Why aren't they asking Ella andkind of having that, but maybe
that's, you know, extendeduniverse, yeah, yeah, and like
it's obvious why he didn't?
Because it wouldn't, wouldn'tbe able to do what he wanted.
Right, because he knew aboutthe vulnerability thing.
Yeah, the proximity to Chloe.
(31:43):
I do want to talk about LindaMay's amenity.
Ill, well, linda's pregnancy.
Before we started recording Iwas, I was asking, I was just
like timing here, like this, howfar along could she be?
Because it's been a while, itfeels like since, yeah, together
, yeah, cuz they made up, cuzLinda and May's made up a month
ago, yeah, well, and a minutedeals with a lot of men, a deal,
(32:07):
yeah, and they had stoppedsleeping together by that point.
So, yeah, yeah, so she'sprobably like, I'm thinking
she's like three weeks.
I'm more like 12.
Okay, 10 to 12.
She's of an age where, if she'sa very menopause, like Periods,
get a regular yeah, yeah herreaction.
(32:28):
And then when she tells a menof Yola and that, like that
other, the woman's like um,actually we're talking, we're
kind of talking, and she just.
Yeah, like all right, that istoo much for me, a men of Yola
(32:51):
kind of searching for purpose onearth.
I appreciated that moment inPart because, like I feel like
that's a common thing for adults.
Oh yeah, in some ways I don'tknow what I want to be when I
grow up 46 years old.
Yeah yeah, you know, and all thepeople who like, okay, you need
(33:13):
me, nope, don't need you, andnot that.
I think that having a baby is agood Purpose, but that was a
lovely, particularly because itwas just two people who are
excited and not lovers.
Yeah, you know, it shows a acool way that co-parenting can
work, which you know you don'toften see.
(33:36):
So I have an overthinking thing.
Maybe this is fluff, I don'tknow, but was for plan this like
long Opera, like chopper tripto San Francisco, and bought a
dress for her and everything.
And then she was like, uh, canwe Like postpone?
And so the next day we see LSA.
I took my abuelita to the opera.
Mm-hmm, isn't her abuelita inDetroit?
(33:59):
I Think I'm.
Well, it's a is in Detroit, Idon't think she's in LA.
Maybe her abuelita had come tovisit and just happened to be in
Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Lucifer flew her in.
I don't know, but like thatjust seemed like a Head over
thinking moment there I wonderedthat myself.
Yeah, this is the start ofspeaking of Ella's, is the start
of her crisis of faith Becauseof Charlotte's death, because of
Charlotte's death, which isreally understandable.
But I also am wondering, like,considering the fact that she's
(34:33):
raising bathtub chickens, hadbob the turtle who did get along
with Margaret the chicken, andit watched 27 seasons.
Yeah, I'm thinking there's this.
There's this great line from 30Rock when Selma Hayek says to
Outfalled wins character whoused to be Catholic also, like I
(34:56):
hope you're not one of thoseconvenient Catholics who only
goes to church on Sundays.
So have we talked about allthat?
We want to talk?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
about my notes.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
We did not talk about Chloe keeping Trixie from maze.
Oh, yes, I think we should talkabout that, hmm, which is
because, as a viewer, like therelationship between Trixie and
mazes is just really satisfyingas a parent, hmm, I totally get
why Chloe was not so.
Oh yeah, I'm excited to renewthat.
Yeah, I Well, and everythinghits different, like the knives,
(35:35):
the like casual Violence,mm-hmm, it's like my child
around that.
That's not okay, I mean.
Why was it okay, though, whenshe was just a normal human,
when she was just a bountyhunter?
Now that I know she's a demon,all this casual violence and
(35:58):
casual sex is not okay.
There.
That is a fair assessment,although there is a gentleness
from maze towards Trixie thatyou don't see from her towards
anyone her very first friendBesides Lucifer, who is a very
good friend.
Yeah, it's kind of a terriblefriend.
(36:19):
He gets better, but, yeah,although they did have that
moment like, are you still madabout me betraying you?
That was like a month ago.
What am I human?
Yeah, wow, of course I'm not.
I did appreciate that where it'sjust like it's water under the
bridge.
Yeah, yeah, you know it'ssimilarly.
(36:42):
Trixie says to Mays I couldn'tsay I agree with you.
You know, when Mays is like I'mso sorry and she's starting to
cry and Trixie's like I knowthat, dummy, are we ready for
fluff?
I think we are what you got.
Oh, I've got one.
So when they go in the firstepisode actually, I've got two
(37:02):
from the first episode.
So first one when they go toGlen, the beekeeper at the
farmers market, and he's lookingback at Chloe and breaking the
spell yes, when he finally makeseye contact he's like Glenn,
glenn done.
And he puts his hair behind hisears and I was just like, oh, I
(37:25):
let him call me Glenn, I don'thave any hair to tuck behind my
ear, but I would stillappreciate that gesture.
And then Glenn actually hadthese gorgeous big brown eyes.
It's like, oh, look at you,glenn.
The other thing I appreciate islike oh, from Los Angeles and
(37:46):
you and I think avocado honeyisn't a big deal, it's just too
far.
I can't get more hippie than me.
So that's the first one.
The second one, I think ofLucifer and the good places
being in conversation with eachother, and we've talked about
this a little bit before.
But I feel like the title ofthe first episode, everything's
(38:09):
okay.
Now they do titles.
Some of them are winks to fans,and this is the first episode
after the hashtag save Lucifercampaign succeeded.
So part of this, I think, isthe showrunners saying like
everything is okay, we're onNetflix now.
So I think that was part of it.
But it also is a kind ofreflection of when Eleanor wakes
(38:35):
up in the good place, she'sacross from a sign that says
everything is fine, and thenlater on it says everything is
great, and so I feel like thisis also an intentional nod to
the ways in which the good placealso talks about the afterlife
and what it means to be good andwhat it means to have second
(38:56):
chances, and so I find thatreally, really interesting.
My goodness, if Ildy and Joeand Michael Sher were on a
podcast together.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I would listen to the hell out of that.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, me too.
That would be awesome, butmaybe and oh gosh, it'd be so
good Because there'd be so muchinteresting stuff in there.
Maybe the fellow, what was hisname?
The director of this first?
Oh, therwin Shiladi.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'd bepretty great, all right.
So my one little piece of fluff.
(39:28):
My spouse actually noticed it.
When they are on that bridge,right before that recoil, that
was very performative.
There's a duck walking theother direction on the bridge.
They're walking and this littleduck just walking and then when
(39:51):
they see that it's gone, Iguess it was multiple takes or
the duck just moved along.
But just really funny that thatduck is there and then in the
next episode it walks like aduck and it blacks like a duck.
I just was thinking about ducks.
That's my little piece of Idon't understand by the whole.
(40:14):
I don't know how to stand bythe whole.
I don't understand by the duck.
Yeah, I don't know how to standby a duck, right by a duck,
yeah, yeah.
Anyway, that was just like alittle piece of like continuity.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
They were like yeah, I'm leaving the duck, that's for
people paying attention.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Oh no, I have to go back.
Yeah, it's a little.
I'll just pour it because or itmight have been a goose.
It was a little waddling littlewaterfowl.
I don't know if you know theduck song Like waddle, waddle,
waddle, that's the doctor keepsgoing to lemonade stand asking
for grapes.
I don't know that song.
(40:52):
The duck's kind of a sociopath,I don't know that song.
He keeps asking for grapes andthen the guys like I sell
lemonade and finally takes themto the grocery store to buy
grapes and the duck says do youthink they have any lemonade
here?
It's my kids introduced me toit.
I figured that.
(41:12):
Well, you know, my spouse isreally into duck related music.
This is the DuckTales themesong.
That's just on the consoleDuckTales, sorry, darkwing Duck
is on Disney Plus now and I waslike, oh, we're in, darkwing
Duck is on Disney Plus.
I was Darkwing Duck and I waslike saying, the thing there's W
(41:34):
, call it EW.
The very first episode hasdisturbing misogyny.
Oh no, you can't go home again.
You never go home again.
Don't watch Darkwing Duck onDisney Plus or skip the first
episode.
Well, we are so, overthinking it, we're like in a whole other
(41:56):
universe.
I'm calling it.
I'm calling it.
Actually, I gotta go.
I have a haircut appointment.
I have a haircut.
Make sure they make sure theyput your hair.
Oh, I will.
You're tenderly, maybe not Seeyou next week.
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(42:36):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken she
does not use a hyphen and I'mhere with my sister, tracy
Guy-Dekker she does use a hyphen, and together this is
Lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we are overthinking it, so much overthinking.
(00:40):
I'm really excited for today'sepisode we are breaking into.
I started to say the bestseason, but actually I don't
want to say that.
Just a really good season.
We're starting season four.
We're starting season four.
So today, is it your favoriteseason?
Is it your favorite?
Season two and four are myfavorite and I think part of why
(01:03):
I like season four is that it'sa lean, mean ten episode
machine.
You know it.
Just, it gets in, it gets thejob done, all right.
So starts off with four-oh-oneand four-oh-two.
Everything is okay.
No, everything's okay.
Apostrophe S and somebody'sbeen reading Dante's Inferno.
(01:25):
So it starts off with thisamazing montage of Tom Ellis as
Lucifer singing Radiohead.
I'm a creep and it's amazing.
So that was written for us.
I mean, we were in high schoolin the 90s and that was, that
(01:48):
was our song.
That was when we were feelinglow and, as Chloe says at the
end, like I used to listen tothe song when I was in high
school and I was feeling lost.
I'm like you were a littleyoung for that, according to the
show, but yes, yep, exactly, wewere there when that song
debuted, and yeah, so it startsoff there.
(02:10):
And then, oh sorry, really welldone the montage, yeah, showing
how time has passed, andactually the.
I saw that the director of theshow is Sherwin Shalati, I think
is his name, who is also thedirector and I only remember
this because someone mentionedit on AV Club or something Also
(02:31):
the director of Till Death to UsPart, which is the episode that
you really love, with Pierceand Lucifer going undercover as
a American company, and thenalso God Johnson, which has that
amazing montage oh yeah, thoseare great episodes, all three of
those.
Yeah, I think Sherwin has a realskill for the montage that says
(02:53):
more than you would expect.
Just a few seconds of airtimeto show.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The changing colors, the changing clothes, clothing
and the background and thepeople in the club listening,
yeah, and speaking of suits, thelast one that he's wearing is
this classic black suit, whiteshirt, red, red, pocket square
yeah, I noticed that too, andthe color in the backdrop, like
(03:21):
that.
It's like a abstracted cityscene, I think, sort of.
I've seen it suggested that itlooks like a throne and so it
kind of or foreshadows or like a.
I hear that it also sort of hasa mandala effect, you know with
sort of like potentially likeabstracted wings kind of behind
him.
(03:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
It's good and in that very first, after that montage,
that very first scene with MrSetout bitch and his cronies,
his minions, we start to seeactually I think I mentioned
this before we started recordingI feel like our writers are
giving us a foreshadow of therest of the series really, but
(04:03):
especially this season, aboutsort of second chances and
redemption arcs and sort of like.
But you're more than a thief,you know that sort of thing.
Yeah, it was reallyforeshadowing and I don't think
I didn't find it heavy handedLike.
I found it like amusing enoughthat like I didn't, I wasn't
like all right, okay, even inrewatch I enjoyed it, especially
(04:26):
when Lee is just like uh, can Ijust go now?
And then when he gets MazeCross she's like stop, it's
totally normal.
Well, that actor, I'm very gladwe get to see more of him in
(04:50):
season five because I feel likethat actor he's got amazing
comedic timing, like he does areally good job of that.
But there's also like there'sthe pathos.
He's capable of pathos as welland and it's like the moment
turns on a dime because he goesfrom like being terrified to
being like super confused.
I particularly like all right,fine, since you went without
(05:12):
pants.
Right, that's the time we met.
Here's mine, right, right.
And then we get view of what wesomebody called I think maybe
it was AB Club the MVP of theseason.
He's the most, he's the most,although his abs, I think, are I
mean they, they get a closesecond.
(05:33):
Yeah, yeah, an honorablemention.
Yeah, really the whole torso,because he did he did a lot of
work on his shoulders and chestas well.
So Also, our writers note thathe's naked from the waist down
when Mays comes up and is like,oh hello, stranger, like looking
(05:53):
at a scratch, no.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I found that adorable .
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I loved that.
Yes, even though I am, as aviewer, sometimes uncomfortable
with the recognition that he andMays slept together many times.
I'm going to make it moreuncomfortable when we meet
Lilith, but I'll wait until weget there.
Oh gosh, I don't even knowabout that.
I'll wait until we get there.
I'll wait.
I don't want to think aboutthat.
I'm holding it.
(06:22):
It's an ace in my sleeve.
Okay, so let's move into the.
I mean, we're stuck in thefirst five minutes of the
episode.
I know Well, because it's anexcellent five minutes, it
really is.
Well, let's talk about the case.
So something that I have beenrethinking and overthinking as
we've been doing this project isconsistently, people will say
(06:46):
that the case of the week is theweakest part of the show, and I
don't think that's wrong.
And we've talked about the factthat it's a procedural, which is
, you know, such a common way totell stories to the point where
, like when you first werereading, like criticism, you're
like, well, why wouldn't it be aprocedural?
What else would it be Right?
Yeah, but I have been thinkinglately about the creative
(07:11):
challenge that the show runnershave given themselves of making
sure that the case of the weekalways ties back to the
characters and sometimes thatworks well and sometimes it
works less well.
But I was thinking about it alot in terms of this case and I
think in part because by thetime I got to season four, the
first time I watched it I waslike I went from, you know, I
(07:32):
was watching one or two episodesa night to like clearing my
schedule and so I was not seeingthe parallels as much because I
was watching it so like popcorn, just like consuming it.
Yeah, I mean, I unhinged my jawand swallowed the episodes and
(07:53):
thinking about both just fromthe creative side, like how cool
that is that the writers didthat and created something that
allowed them to tell thesestories, anchoring it on
something that was going to getgreen lit by Fox and then saved
on Netflix, but then also beingable to tell these really
(08:13):
interesting stories about thehuman condition, using crime as
the central metaphor.
I still think that it couldhave been cool without that, but
considering the box they werein, I appreciate what they've
done with it.
And then, especially withinthis episode, the case is about
a second chance, right?
(08:33):
Okay, so Bob the Knob.
Bob the Knob Got to have asecond chance, to have a
different life from who he hadbeen, and he slipped up.
He glenned the other honey.
Pervayer, pervayer, apervayer,aperi, aperi, I don't know.
Beekeeper, bee guy, beekeeper.
(08:55):
He did not deserve to be hitwith a bag of doorknobs.
Who does that?
Who does that?
Yeah, did not deserve that.
But that doesn't mean that Bobthe Knob deserved to die or that
his wife would feel differentlyabout him.
I can't imagine she would befurious at him, but she wouldn't
(09:19):
want him out of her life.
Maybe I mean, and she didn't,she didn't get a chance.
I found that really interestingbecause, as we're talking about
second chances and at one pointeven Lucifer's like well, he's
trying.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And this is more than you're doing Slip up.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
That's more than you're doing.
Yeah, and the place ofrighteous indignation that the
Marshall stands on is verysimilar to Father Kinley's place
of right indignation.
More so in the future, right,in future episodes, we will see
Father Kinley follow theMarshall precisely in these two
(09:56):
episodes.
We don't see it yet.
I think, not quite, not quite.
Well, I think we see a littlebit in the second episode.
I mean a little bit, but it'shard to know what I don't
already know.
Right, you know, right, I, yeah, I think in these two episodes
in first watch I'm not sure thatyou would see the parallel with
Father Kinley and the Marshall.
Yet it definitely gets there infuture episodes in this season.
(10:18):
Yeah, and you know, all we knowabout Father Kinley in this
first episode is that he andChloe know each other.
There's something that they'replanning to do together and that
she's really conflicted about.
Yeah, so, but we're also seeing, you know she's she's coming
(10:38):
back saying everything's okayand clearly is not.
You know that recoil from fromLucifer, which was nothing
Agreed, it was terrible, it wasreally terrible.
It was like, yeah, agreed.
You know I'm not a huge germfan.
(11:00):
I think that actually thisseason is part of why, but
moments in this season, thatbeing one of them, yeah, I just,
I just, you just didn't feel it.
I didn't believe it, I didn't,yeah, I just.
You know the director was likeokay, so like you're actually
scared when he touches you, butI didn't, it felt.
(11:25):
It felt like a performance.
Yes, it was like it was for thecheap seats.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, exactly, and that's it just did.
When you've got someone who'sthe master of subtlety, right,
right, maybe, yeah, maybe thatperformance would have worked
against a different actor ifLucifer played by someone other
than Ellis.
Yeah, yeah, anyway, that said,the characters, fear and
(11:54):
response makes complete sense,total sense.
Total sense, especially when weget to, when we realize that
someone that we thought wetrusted, in fact like a, you
know, sociopath or a narcissistor whatever, the sort of the
charismatic Machiavelli, it's soconfusing and hard to like
figure it out and that's just alike, standard, typical human
(12:19):
way of being.
So to have that kind ofconfusion on top of the.
The like Celestials are realand this is the literal double.
Yeah, it would be.
I found the characters behaviorcompletely comprehensible, well
(12:39):
and particularly, and so we'llget into the second episode with
this particularly with knowingthat she's got father Kinley
whispering in her ear and we are, because we've been on this,
this journey, for three years,now four years.
We know that Lucifer is notwhat Kinley is saying.
He is, but he seems to be anexpert, he is gentle and kind
(13:04):
and and you know is is usingarguments that seem
unimpeachable.
I mean, they're photographs ofthe man, of the man she knows
with Nazis.
Yeah, so you know, yeah, and Ido appreciate her response when
he says you know, whenever hecomes to Earth, death and
destruction follows.
And she's like, hmm, that'scircumstantial evidence of best,
(13:26):
yeah, his response well, that'sa lot of circumstantial
evidence.
And then I was thinking like,well, how do you?
Death and destruction follows,like that's the human condition.
So like, how do you know what?
What parentheses to put aroundhis time on?
Yeah, and compare it to whenhe's not on it?
(13:46):
Right, what is the control inthis, in this comparison?
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's interesting, though,because she's like, no, I will
not accept that circumstantialevidence.
And then later, is it the sameepisode when she's like if it
walks like a duck and it talkslike a duck, it probably murders
like a duck.
It's like she's accepted his.
(14:07):
I think it's like when I'mjustifying what she's doing with
this additive yes, yes, I thinkthat's what it is.
Is that?
Is she?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
She needs something to believein, and so you know.
All right, it's gonna be a loteasier if I can just say like,
if they are what they seem to be, then that's enough, and that
(14:31):
also, I feel like, is veryrealistic and human, even among
someone who requires as muchevidence as Chloe does and who
is as good a detective as she is.
She has gotten the shock of herlife and it's like global and
personal.
Yeah, right, right, it's notjust global, it's cosmological.
(14:53):
Yeah yeah, and that walks like aduck, murders like a duck.
That's in the second, that's inthe Don.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Decker one.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Yeah, yes, cause that's the reality TV, it's the
reality TV show one, yeah, yeah,and that's.
I can completely comprehendthat, like if you're trying to
convince yourself to dosomething you don't want to do,
finding, yeah, unrelated things.
It's interesting too, though,in that episode, in that second
episode, where she has a genuinereaction with the fireball,
(15:25):
with the gas explosion, andshe's like, no, you know, when
she thinks he's gonna be hurt,like she genuinely cares for him
, which is not as a reason, weknow that, but it's interesting
that our writers had that comethrough after her, trying to
convince herself that if itwalks like a duck and talks like
a duck, then it probablymurders like a duck.
That was an interesting moment,and actually I think you had a
(15:48):
good point before we startedrecording about her confusion in
that bit.
Do you want to talk about that?
Yeah, so, as I mentioned, Ibinged, particularly when I got
to season four, and I didn'treally take in her confusion
about the fact that he'svulnerable sometimes and not
(16:11):
others.
And so when she gets angry athim after she breaks the wine
glass and he's bleeding, and shegets angry and she's like are
you doing this on purpose?
Are you trying to make me careabout you.
This is the first time I reallytook it in, like, oh yeah, that
would be really confusing.
Like you know, he walked out ofa fiery inferno, fine, and, but
(16:34):
you know a little bit of a cutglass and he's bleeding and so
is he doing.
Is this a manipulation, right?
Especially since Kimley hassuggested he will do whatever it
takes to charm her and, like,make these little adjustments.
And she's even just said, no,white devil claw from the Pierce
episode when he was trying to.
Yes, and he said, well, thatdidn't go over so well, so I
made adjustments, like, so heeven sort of, in his language,
(16:57):
kind of corroborated Kimley'sstory.
So, yeah, that confusion makesa lot of sense and I agree with
you.
I'm not sure that I fullycomprehended her lack of
comprehension about when she's,when he is.
Well, I think it was because inone of those, because it has
(17:17):
been such a like a central,tenet of this, but it was a
piece of traumatic irony.
Yeah, well, we knew, but shedidn't.
Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, that final,almost final scene of that one
with the axe.
Oh my God, I've watched thatscene many times, so many times
(17:41):
it that I don't know what itsays about my psychology and
conditioning, that thatvulnerability is so friggin sexy
.
It really is so sexy.
What she's got, like I don'twant her to hurt him, but like
when she's like no, so I couldhurt you.
And he's just like, yes, like Idon't know, it's hot, it's
(18:05):
really hot.
Yeah, yeah, I will.
And the fact that, like when,when she's like, but you, you,
you jumped in front of it anywayto save me.
Yes, and I would do it again.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Like you jumped in front of it yes and again.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yes, and do it again and again, and again.
And don't you know that by now?
And it's just like yeah, Apuddle, yeah, that scene.
My spouse came in while thatscene was on and I was just like
do not say a word to ruin this.
So my spouse was also watchingwith me and they kept asking me
(18:38):
questions and I was likeseriously, I cannot do this with
you.
Why is she doing that?
What is happening?
Where do they?
Why doesn't she?
What's with the bottle?
What's?
Stop talking.
I love you, Go away.
I feel like your spouse and myyoungest need to sit together at
(19:04):
movies and I think thosemoments are part of why we have
such affection for season four.
Because you know, it's not justthat.
There's that moment which isjust hot, which is again like,
(19:25):
Right, I don't want to Like, I'mnot going to lay down on the
couch with Linda, with mytherapist.
Yeah, I will, but not here.
But there's that, and thenthere's also the dawning
realization on Chloe's part ofwho he is and what he has done
for her, which she never fullyunderstands.
(19:47):
She never really understood.
I don't think she even does,even through season 6.
I don't think she ever fullyunderstands, like when he died
and went to hell to get the likeall of the things and the deal
he made when Malcolm killed him,like so many things.
I don't think she ever fully Imean, I don't know.
(20:09):
Anyway, but this is the firsttime she has, she's starting to
see it, yeah, and then I thinkit's also interesting that this
comes immediately after thefirst episode, the scene where
he's keeping the car fromgetting away, which is like
genuinely kind of terrifyingBecause he's doing something
(20:30):
that is physically impossible,humanly impossible, and like
roaring, and you know now sheknows who he is and what he is.
And so the contrast between thevulnerability of having that axe
against his chest versus, likeyou know, his hole in his hand
(20:51):
but he's still able to hold onto a SUV, which is another one
of those moments where, like thewriters just seem to like
whatever serves if he hassuperhuman strength when she's
around or not.
Yeah, anyway, I mean, if heself-actualizes, I guess I can
sort of he needed it in thatmoment and so he self-actualized
(21:13):
the strength in that moment,yeah, yeah, and he must also
heal very quickly because he hada hole in his hand Like you
could look through it.
Right, they showed us that.
They showed him look through it.
Yeah, oh, speaking of.
Actually it's almost like ourwriters were retroactively
listening to or whatever in thefuture, because our last episode
(21:39):
we talked about like why aren'tthere exit wounds?
And like the bullets like inhis pants.
There weren't, and we saw thatthere were bullet holes in the
back of his shirt, but the frontof his shirt was fine, so yeah.
So he once walked around withbullets in his clothes.
We should have heard them gobing, bing, bing, bing, bing,
(22:00):
bing, bing, bing, bing, or theydissolve in his celestial body.
But you know, no exit wounds.
So, yeah, I actually because wehad just talked about it in our
last episode I noticed thatspecifically.
So when a menadil is at thecoffee shop and he, like, sidles
up next to somebody, is thatHildi?
(22:20):
You know who that is?
That was.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Hildi right.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
It's Hildi, it's Hildi, like I'm an Hildi Hi
Hildi, if you ever see this, welove you.
I actually want to talk realquick about it's so on the nose,
but it's perfect.
In the same way that I feellike him seeing creep is so on
the nose and yet perfect that heput on 90s jams for her because
(22:44):
he knows that's her favoritemusic.
And poison, poison that girl isalways and it's like and I love
that song, I love that song.
Like he makes fun of her tasteBelle Biv DeVoe, right, I think
that's Belle Biv DeVoe Now.
Belle Biv DeVoe Now, you know,they were just a big button
(23:05):
smile.
That girl is poised, okay, okay, okay, so he makes fun of her,
so he makes fun of her.
But you know, like that'sactually that's a good song.
It's a weird song for a romanticnight, but you know he's the
weird dude.
He's a weird dude.
It's one of those where, likeit would never be like that in
(23:30):
real life and yet I love it.
You know, like the coincidenceof it being the song poison,
while she's trying to poison him, she's trying to roofie the
devil, right?
Why is it going to be in likethat?
Like, very like snow whitewicked witch.
Since the middle ages we've hadthis bottle of sacred roofies.
(23:55):
We've been prepping for thissince the 14th century here.
Well, it's just like a preparethe holy hand grenade, prepare
the holy roofies.
And like, actually, when myspouse was like asking, I was
like I don't remember the playhow was she supposed to poison
the?
Like?
It was a sedative and he wasgoing to perform an exorcism,
(24:18):
but but Lucifer wasn't I, hewasn't possessing anyone.
The thing is, I think that mightbe what Kinley told her and he
was actually just going to killhim.
Oh, okay, well, maybe we'llfind out.
So I think it's reallyinteresting.
She's been telling her likethis guy is manipulating you and
(24:39):
then at the end she's like youknew that he was vulnerable
about around me and he was likeyeah, I suspected so.
Like she doesn't know who totrust, right, Like that came
home to me more strongly in thissavoring than when I benched it
, because I also did the samething and just watched them all
at once and just the degree towhich.
(25:00):
Like she just can't trustanyone or doesn't know who she
can trust, because she doesn'tknow if she can trust her own
instincts.
At this point I feel likerealizing that Kinley must have
known that she made himvulnerable is what made her
decide, not that she wouldn'twork with him anymore.
(25:20):
Yeah, because if he had beenhonest with her about that, she
he might have been able toconvince her.
But because he tried tomanipulate her, I mean, maybe,
or maybe I mean that would have,which is why he didn't tell her
.
Because that changes, itchanges the calculus To what you
think of her, yeah, yeah, andwhat her role is or should be.
Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate, like they do, good villains
(25:45):
for the most part in the show,and Father Kinley is up there
with Malcolm as one of myfavorites, and it's partially
because he choose the scenerysomewhat too, not yet, yeah,
well, I'm remembering as I'mwatching that, like when I just
watched it, I didn't, it didn't.
So like this actor is reallygood, like we're going to get to
see him with differentpersonalities, which is really
(26:07):
cool, oh, my goodness.
Yeah, I don't want to get aheadof ourselves, but yeah, all
right, let's talk about,actually like the Kinley-Cloé
conversation, because I think wehave talked before about some
of the metaphors for mentalillness in this show and this is
a, you know, a key one thatcomes up again and again, like
(26:28):
if they, if, if this person thatI care about learn to I really
am, then they're going to runaway, which literally happens,
and so it's hard for him totrust when she comes back.
I'm getting away from myself.
I want to talk about the factthat, with that in the
background, this conversationthat Kimmy and Chloe are having,
where Chloe's like no, youdon't know him, like I know him,
(26:50):
is a little potentiallyproblematic, right, because it's
sort of the way that abusedpeople, especially women, talk
about their abusers, right, thatsort of apology for abusers you
just don't know him the waythat I know him.
That's a common way that theabused talk about their abusers
(27:12):
when they are in that sort ofcodependent kind of a
relationship.
And I don't fault our writersfor having her say that, because
it is true, and he hasn'tabused her.
Well, he hasn't physicallyabused her.
I mean, some of the ways thathe's like pulling her near and
(27:34):
pushing her away are sort ofemotionally abusive.
Yeah, I was going to say theyweren't intentionally so, but
impact and are not the same yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Can I just say ouch, I didn't,I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I was going with that .
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I don't like that.
So this is going to sound.
I'm not saying the writers gavethemselves a fig leaf by making
Kinley nefarious, but he was.
He does not actually haveChloe's best interests at heart
and the people who do like Danaren't telling her what to do.
(28:20):
So, like Dan is taking asimilar stance where it's just
like what other secrets is hekeeping that we don't know?
How can you forgive?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
him for trusting her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, because, and that, yeah, that is how like the
suggestions are for if you havea loved one who is in an
abusive relationship, how tokeep the channels open while
planting seeds that you know youdeserve better than this.
Yeah, although I like the showmakes it clear that Dan is also
(28:51):
right.
Dan is not particularlysympathetic right now.
No, except that he is.
I mean that the moment likewhen, if you view the whole
context, he certainly is, he'sbeen through a lot and the
people he relied on the mostwere absent, but you still just
the actual like while he's onscreen.
(29:12):
I'm not like, oh, sam, you knowwell, in that moment between
him, I get it, I get it.
It's just in the back of myhead.
I'm thinking he's lost someonewho, whether or not it would
have been true, he believed wasthe love of his life.
And then his ex-wife, who isalso a friend, and his daughter
(29:34):
left for a month without sayinganything.
Well, we don't know if theysaid anything.
Yeah, yeah, he's still Lee, forsure, he's still Lee left and
his closest male friend, as faras we know yeah, as far as we
know that he did go withoutsaying a word and without yeah
for no calls because they don'thave telephone.
(29:55):
So he had been sort of friendlywith Lucifer but it was a weird
relationship.
But he's holding Luciferresponsible for Charlotte staff,
which is understandable, andthat like that, that moment when
Menendale says she's in heavenand he immediately is like don't
?
I completely understand that.
(30:17):
That's one of the.
The way that a Menendaleresponds is lovely and Dan does
get at least a moment of peacewhen he gets, when he hugs him.
He's like you know what?
I kind of believe you, that'sjust, that's meaningful, it's
lovely and meaningful.
And, yeah, the thing that I'mthinking that's a.
It's never brought up, but itjust occurred to me.
(30:38):
Like you know, at one pointKinley says to Chloe we can't do
this without you prior to herlearning that she makes Lucifer
vulnerable and I was thinkingthis time at the end, when she
was leaving.
Oh, he said it.
I think he said it again, but hesaid it when she says I know,
(30:59):
and that's, oh, yeah, no no, nohe says it to her twice because
he says we can't do this withoutyou, or like we need you for
this or something like that.
And I had this thought, likemight it occur to Chloe that
like wouldn't it make sense togo talk to Ella?
Since she is Catholic, she'salready like that.
She might be asking yourselfwhy Kinley didn't, like she's
(31:22):
similarly close to Lucifer Imean, not the same kind of
closeness, but similarly close.
Why aren't they asking Ella andkind of having that, but maybe
that's, you know, extendeduniverse, yeah, yeah, and like
it's obvious why he didn't?
Because it wouldn't, wouldn'tbe able to do what he wanted.
Right, because he knew aboutthe vulnerability thing.
Yeah, the proximity to Chloe.
(31:43):
I do want to talk about LindaMay's amenity.
Ill, well, linda's pregnancy.
Before we started recording Iwas, I was asking, I was just
like timing here, like this, howfar along could she be?
Because it's been a while, itfeels like since, yeah, together
, yeah, cuz they made up, cuzLinda and May's made up a month
ago, yeah, well, and a minutedeals with a lot of men, a deal,
(32:07):
yeah, and they had stoppedsleeping together by that point.
So, yeah, yeah, so she'sprobably like, I'm thinking
she's like three weeks.
I'm more like 12.
Okay, 10 to 12.
She's of an age where, if she'sa very menopause, like Periods,
get a regular yeah, yeah herreaction.
(32:28):
And then when she tells a menof Yola and that, like that
other, the woman's like um,actually we're talking, we're
kind of talking, and she just.
Yeah, like all right, that istoo much for me, a men of Yola
(32:51):
kind of searching for purpose onearth.
I appreciated that moment inPart because, like I feel like
that's a common thing for adults.
Oh yeah, in some ways I don'tknow what I want to be when I
grow up 46 years old.
Yeah yeah, you know, and all thepeople who like, okay, you need
(33:13):
me, nope, don't need you, andnot that.
I think that having a baby is agood Purpose, but that was a
lovely, particularly because itwas just two people who are
excited and not lovers.
Yeah, you know, it shows a acool way that co-parenting can
work, which you know you don'toften see.
(33:36):
So I have an overthinking thing.
Maybe this is fluff, I don'tknow, but was for plan this like
long Opera, like chopper tripto San Francisco, and bought a
dress for her and everything.
And then she was like, uh, canwe Like postpone?
And so the next day we see LSA.
I took my abuelita to the opera.
Mm-hmm, isn't her abuelita inDetroit?
(33:59):
I Think I'm.
Well, it's a is in Detroit, Idon't think she's in LA.
Maybe her abuelita had come tovisit and just happened to be in
Los Angeles.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean maybe.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Lucifer flew her in.
I don't know, but like thatjust seemed like a Head over
thinking moment there I wonderedthat myself.
Yeah, this is the start ofspeaking of Ella's, is the start
of her crisis of faith Becauseof Charlotte's death, because of
Charlotte's death, which isreally understandable.
But I also am wondering, like,considering the fact that she's
(34:33):
raising bathtub chickens, hadbob the turtle who did get along
with Margaret the chicken, andit watched 27 seasons.
Yeah, I'm thinking there's this.
There's this great line from 30Rock when Selma Hayek says to
Outfalled wins character whoused to be Catholic also, like I
(34:56):
hope you're not one of thoseconvenient Catholics who only
goes to church on Sundays.
So have we talked about allthat?
We want to talk?
Speaker 1 (35:10):
about my notes.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
We did not talk about Chloe keeping Trixie from maze.
Oh, yes, I think we should talkabout that, hmm, which is
because, as a viewer, like therelationship between Trixie and
mazes is just really satisfyingas a parent, hmm, I totally get
why Chloe was not so.
Oh yeah, I'm excited to renewthat.
Yeah, I Well, and everythinghits different, like the knives,
(35:35):
the like casual Violence,mm-hmm, it's like my child
around that.
That's not okay, I mean.
Why was it okay, though, whenshe was just a normal human,
when she was just a bountyhunter?
Now that I know she's a demon,all this casual violence and
(35:58):
casual sex is not okay.
There.
That is a fair assessment,although there is a gentleness
from maze towards Trixie thatyou don't see from her towards
anyone her very first friendBesides Lucifer, who is a very
good friend.
Yeah, it's kind of a terriblefriend.
(36:19):
He gets better, but, yeah,although they did have that
moment like, are you still madabout me betraying you?
That was like a month ago.
What am I human?
Yeah, wow, of course I'm not.
I did appreciate that where it'sjust like it's water under the
bridge.
Yeah, yeah, you know it'ssimilarly.
(36:42):
Trixie says to Mays I couldn'tsay I agree with you.
You know, when Mays is like I'mso sorry and she's starting to
cry and Trixie's like I knowthat, dummy, are we ready for
fluff?
I think we are what you got.
Oh, I've got one.
So when they go in the firstepisode actually, I've got two
(37:02):
from the first episode.
So first one when they go toGlen, the beekeeper at the
farmers market, and he's lookingback at Chloe and breaking the
spell yes, when he finally makeseye contact he's like Glenn,
glenn done.
And he puts his hair behind hisears and I was just like, oh, I
(37:25):
let him call me Glenn, I don'thave any hair to tuck behind my
ear, but I would stillappreciate that gesture.
And then Glenn actually hadthese gorgeous big brown eyes.
It's like, oh, look at you,glenn.
The other thing I appreciate islike oh, from Los Angeles and
(37:46):
you and I think avocado honeyisn't a big deal, it's just too
far.
I can't get more hippie than me.
So that's the first one.
The second one, I think ofLucifer and the good places
being in conversation with eachother, and we've talked about
this a little bit before.
But I feel like the title ofthe first episode, everything's
(38:09):
okay.
Now they do titles.
Some of them are winks to fans,and this is the first episode
after the hashtag save Lucifercampaign succeeded.
So part of this, I think, isthe showrunners saying like
everything is okay, we're onNetflix now.
So I think that was part of it.
But it also is a kind ofreflection of when Eleanor wakes
(38:35):
up in the good place, she'sacross from a sign that says
everything is fine, and thenlater on it says everything is
great, and so I feel like thisis also an intentional nod to
the ways in which the good placealso talks about the afterlife
and what it means to be good andwhat it means to have second
(38:56):
chances, and so I find thatreally, really interesting.
My goodness, if Ildy and Joeand Michael Sher were on a
podcast together.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I would listen to the hell out of that.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, me too.
That would be awesome, butmaybe and oh gosh, it'd be so
good Because there'd be so muchinteresting stuff in there.
Maybe the fellow, what was hisname?
The director of this first?
Oh, therwin Shiladi.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that'd bepretty great, all right.
So my one little piece of fluff.
(39:28):
My spouse actually noticed it.
When they are on that bridge,right before that recoil, that
was very performative.
There's a duck walking theother direction on the bridge.
They're walking and this littleduck just walking and then when
(39:51):
they see that it's gone, Iguess it was multiple takes or
the duck just moved along.
But just really funny that thatduck is there and then in the
next episode it walks like aduck and it blacks like a duck.
I just was thinking about ducks.
That's my little piece of Idon't understand by the whole.
(40:14):
I don't know how to stand bythe whole.
I don't understand by the duck.
Yeah, I don't know how to standby a duck, right by a duck,
yeah, yeah.
Anyway, that was just like alittle piece of like continuity.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
They were like yeah, I'm leaving the duck, that's for
people paying attention.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Oh no, I have to go back.
Yeah, it's a little.
I'll just pour it because or itmight have been a goose.
It was a little waddling littlewaterfowl.
I don't know if you know theduck song Like waddle, waddle,
waddle, that's the doctor keepsgoing to lemonade stand asking
for grapes.
I don't know that song.
(40:52):
The duck's kind of a sociopath,I don't know that song.
He keeps asking for grapes andthen the guys like I sell
lemonade and finally takes themto the grocery store to buy
grapes and the duck says do youthink they have any lemonade
here?
It's my kids introduced me toit.
I figured that.
(41:12):
Well, you know, my spouse isreally into duck related music.
This is the DuckTales themesong.
That's just on the consoleDuckTales, sorry, darkwing Duck
is on Disney Plus now and I waslike, oh, we're in, darkwing
Duck is on Disney Plus.
I was Darkwing Duck and I waslike saying, the thing there's W
(41:34):
, call it EW.
The very first episode hasdisturbing misogyny.
Oh no, you can't go home again.
You never go home again.
Don't watch Darkwing Duck onDisney Plus or skip the first
episode.
Well, we are so, overthinking it, we're like in a whole other
(41:56):
universe.
I'm calling it.
I'm calling it.
Actually, I gotta go.
I have a haircut appointment.
I have a haircut.
Make sure they make sure theyput your hair.
Oh, I will.
You're tenderly, maybe not Seeyou next week.
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(42:36):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
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