March 7, 2024 • 47 mins
“Devil is as Devil Does” and “Super Bad Boyfriend” give some hints that the writers were wrestling with their copagandistic vehicle. However, there were also moments in these two episodes, especially in Chloe’s voice, that oversimplify the “rightness” of human justice. That they made these explorations around the death of a Black teenager is all the more topical (and will be returned to in season 6).
These two episodes also tackle the experience of self-hatred that both sisters find heart-breakingly relatable. From Lucifer’s bat-like wings, to Dan’s attempts to externalize his self-loathing in a beating from Maze, to Maze reacting to a would-be date who is remarkably like she is, our writers invite us to think about self-perception again and again.
As always, the sisters investigate the story structure and writing, lingering over the ways the dialogue and the acting communicate the story, and teasing out the meaning of specific glances and blocking.
Mentioned in this episode:
Helen Rosen “ How Apples Go Bad” https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/how-apples-go-bad
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hello there, I'm a little rusty, it's been a while.
I am here with my sister, tracyGuy Decker yes, hyphen.
And I'm here with my sister,emily Guy Berkin no, hyphen,
it's true.
And together we arelightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
(01:37):
.
And you bet your sweet ass,we're overthinking it.
We really are so much.
And today we are going to betalking about episodes 407 and
408 devil is this, devil does,and super bad boyfriend.
And these are they're.
They're excellent episodes ofTV, but they're, they're dark.
(01:57):
There's, there's some realdarkness in this.
I'm really looking forward totalking about it, but I also,
like, was a little bit dreadingwatching them, although in some
ways I mean, as you have pointedout multiple times, like when
Lucifer hates himself, like whenhe's your, your favorite
Lucifer is the devil studentLucifer.
(02:18):
And so the self loathing inthese episodes.
There's a lot of pathos there.
It's actually.
It's not.
It's not Lucifer is not thereason why I feel that way.
It's, it's actually a menadil.
The, the actual.
Finally, reckoning with theracism in the LAPD and the real
meaning of raising a black boyin America in the 21st century.
(02:43):
Yeah, yeah, why.
I like oppression?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whenyou, when you like.
I mean not to jump into thesecond episode, but I, you know,
I watched them this morningbefore we got on and I found
myself thinking if a parent of ablack child, boy or girl, had
(03:07):
an option to raise their childsomewhere other than here you,
of course, it would be temptingto do so.
Yeah, and you know, there's thevery in your face issue that he
sees, with Caleb being pushedto the ground and violently
(03:27):
arrested when he was not in anyway resisting arrest or posing
problem anything.
But then there's the, thesmaller things I have been
reading a little bit about andsmaller is it's hard to say so
it's not as in your face of,like the, the types of
(03:49):
microaggressions and and issuesthat people of color face just
navigating the world, and howexhausting that is, and and the,
the amount of stress that putson literally people's lives.
Exactly, yes, and watching thatepisode for one thing.
Now my kids are not Caleb's age, but my, my eldest, just turned
(04:13):
12.
For the first time since Ifirst watched this, I can see,
like what it's like to parents ateenager in a way that I hadn't
before, and how terrifying thathas to be for parents of
particularly black boys.
(04:34):
But you know, and any, anyteenager who is from
marginalized community and andand recognizing how violent the
world can be towards them, itjust I, like I was crying, like
through that whole whole episode, particularly because I knew it
was coming and that there's no,there's no good resolution for
(04:56):
it.
And I was wondering you hadtalked about.
In season six they grapple withthis issue again in a any even
deeper way, and I appreciatethat.
And you had said that you heardDB Woodside give a an interview
where he talked about he made anuisance of himself to the
writers to make sure they didthat, and I was wondering if he
(05:17):
had any input or effect on thisone.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't, Ido not know the answer.
The the interview that I sawwas specifically about what
happens in season six, althoughI think I mean in my mind,
especially because we pairedthese two episodes together,
like they needed to swing back,because the in devil is as devil
(05:39):
does the.
Chloe makes a very clearequivalence between the cops
being the good guys doing it theright way, yeah, yeah.
And the extra judicial justicethat Lucifer is trying to enact,
which I'm not condoning no,okay, me wrong, like actually I
(06:00):
don't, I'm not saying that'sright either and also like the
assumption that because it's notextra judicial, it's therefore
right, is like fundamentallyflawed, yes, which they at least
acknowledge in SuperbadBoyfriend, with the story arc of
Caleb and and what happens tohim.
(06:22):
And I mean, and they bring usalong, they do acknowledge it
and they bring us along becausewhen Chloe says I promise we're
going to figure out who did this, and then Lucifer walks up
behind Amenadiel, amenadiel saysI know who did this and Lucifer
says I'll drive, I'll drive,right, and then we see the angel
like pummeling the piss out ofthe murderer of his friend and
(06:44):
we're with him, right, like thewriters have written it so that
we are sympathetic to that extrajudicial punishment.
But in my mind that was like adirect, necessary kind of
correction to the over thepropaganda.
Yeah, yeah, I mean thepropaganda in devil is as devil
(07:07):
does is strong, it's overt.
Yeah, we do have Dan as acorrupt cop covering his tracks
for a person, but basically apersonal vendetta against
Lucifer that almost got his ownchild.
Yeah, so it's not like it's notproblematized, but it's also
(07:30):
not countered.
Yes, and the problematizing isvery much the, the propaganda
that it's one bad apple.
Yeah, so that if Dan were tofind another job then the LAPD
would be just fine, which is forone thing.
I want to make sure that I saythis the damn expression is one
(07:54):
bad apple spoils the bunch.
The whole barrel, yes, yes,which is just like.
That's the thing that reallydrives me crazy.
Me too, it's just like you say,oh, it's one bad apple, whatever
, no big deal.
I'm like, no, no, no, the wholething is about if there's one
bad apple, everything bad, itspoils the whole barrel because,
because I mean, like thereactually is whatever the
phylloxin biology and likewhatever the rat spreads, yeah,
(08:19):
it doesn't say contain to theone bad apple, as if you could
just pick it out and then it'sall good.
Yeah, there's a food writernamed Helen Rosen, who I love,
who, and I can't remember thespecific time because there's
been so many, but it wasprobably about George Floyd's
murderer.
But at some point she said Iwould like to talk about where
(08:41):
the one that apple spoils intoour barrel, the idiom, comes
from.
And she went into the scienceof it and it was very much, it
was very pointed, and yet at thesame time it was all in her
lane, it was all about food.
So, anyway, so we get to see inSuperbad Boyfriend that this is
(09:01):
a systemic issue, because evenwhen, like Dan's like, oh, those
hothead cowboys were out ofline, she's like, can you say a
little stronger than that?
And like I'm going to, you know, file a complaint for excessive
force.
Excessive force, and like whenMen of Deals like and what's
going to happen because of that?
(09:22):
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
Because and there is there issome fairness to the idea that
human justice is just asimperfect as humanity, which
means that we create our ownbiases over and over and over
again.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat, yeah yeah, there was also
(09:45):
the moment when, like, a Men ofDeals is like is it because of
the color of my skin, orwhatever?
And Dan is like how dare you?
Which is totally accurate inthe way that that is exactly how
he would react.
Yeah, and also like in theoriginal, like at the original
air date I'm not sure how muchlike pushback or greater
(10:10):
questioning that moment received.
Watching it now in 2022.
I'm like shoe fits.
I did wonder, because I'vementioned that I really like
Latoya Ferguson, who is thewriter for the AV club who does
the reviews of Lucifer, and sheis black and she mentioned about
(10:34):
in that scene if there was anyaspect of the fact that Dan is
Latino, so he is a person ofcolor as well and has also had
to navigate racism andmarginalization and things like
that in that.
How dare you?
And it made me feel like thatcould have been a stronger
(10:57):
although it wouldn't have madesense character wise, but could
have been a stronger message ifit had been Chloe saying how
dare you?
just because that is very muchwhat except that it went
completely on examines by eitherof them.
Yeah, I'm not sure Like I thinkit could have been stronger,
even with Dan, if it hadactually then received any kind
of examination from either ofthem.
Yeah, right, like you know, butanyway, yeah, just while I'm
(11:22):
drinking my coffee this isreally fluff, but I just want to
like to bring down thetemperature a little bit Ella's
mug that has a picture of her onit and then on the bottom
Another picture of her, anotherpicture of her.
And I was just like where doesone find the company that does
that?
Because I want a mug that I canput something on the bottom of
(11:43):
too.
Yeah, that was I'm also wearingmy new very Ellis shirt.
So I was just like, in honor ofthis, I was like I'll wear my
new unicorn 80s style shirt.
So, in any case, let's talkabout some Jacob Tierenin, the
father of the human traffic, orpiece of crap, and also what the
(12:08):
heck's going on with his office.
What is the weird thing?
Like what he gets interrupteddoing is like dusting the model
of a ship with container, likecouldn't you have had a?
Yeah, what a weird thing.
Like he's a CEO, like doesn'the?
Yeah, wiping, it's so weird, soweird, which I'm just like I
(12:32):
can tell, like I mean, I guess,I don't know, I guess when you
have that much money, you don'thave to worry about your
appearance.
But like he was like total,like Bernie Sanders hair and
like like crazy eyebrows andlike I don't know, he didn't
read as like.
I mean, I guess he was meant tobe like accept, eccentric,
billionaire kind of look, but hejust read as like well, he had
(12:57):
to.
Like like a nudist hippie, Imean.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So oh right, right.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You know they were no longer together, but like
clearly, well, and she was, shewas deceased.
Yes, yes, yeah.
So and I got, I thought Iremembered that they were
divorced Because otherwise hewould have he, if they had been
together when she died.
Unless she specifically left itto Julian, right, he would have
(13:23):
gone to him, but he had takenher maiden name, yeah.
They were they were definitely.
Yeah, that's the Julian hadtaken her maiden name.
Yeah, they were.
I definitely think that theywere no longer together.
Yeah, anyway, yeah, Okay.
So let's talk about Jacob Ternan.
Yeah, so it's thinking about,like Lucifer's motivation.
(13:45):
So he let McCaffrey go becausehe didn't want to be a monster,
and McCaffrey shot rookie Joan,so he went and like broke his
back and enjoyed it, and thenthis other guy, who is at least
(14:07):
innocent of having broken hisback it sounds like he's a, like
drug dealer and you know, not agreat person, but still did not
break Julian McCaffrey's backis tortured and murdered in
retaliation, and so then and itfeels like this is the beginning
of a downward spiral, becausehe goes like I did that, and now
(14:30):
someone else is dead and it's.
I remember I have a friendwho's a crime novelist and he
said that his, his, in his view,noir is when character makes a
bad decision and then keepsmaking worse decisions trying to
fix the first bad decision.
And that's what this feels likeit could have become, because,
(14:53):
like you know, once you wentafter Ternan, like who knows
where that would have led to,but at the same time, every
single thing that he does isalso very relatable and not
justifiable, but like somethingyou could see a person doing to,
because they they want to dothe right thing.
(15:15):
You know it's, it feels likehe's trying to do the right
thing.
What's interesting is thetension that I mean especially
with inherent in the propagandaand the and the brokenness of
the human justice system is, orat least the American one, like
you're reminding me that in theprevious episode, when he lets
(15:35):
Julian go, he has him and he'slike pushing his face into like
a belt sander or something LikeI don't know why that's there,
but whatever it is like he's andthen he says to him, as he lets
him go, let the police dealwith you.
Like, basically, I'll let thehumans do their human thing,
which I'm just right nowtracking sort of the pendulum of
(15:58):
that working and not working.
You know, like that's why heled Julian go.
Then Joan dies, then Dan ispissed as heck that Joan has
died and then he like the whole.
I don't know.
There's just something I thinkeven then the writers were
holding in some tension withtheir vehicle, their propaganda
(16:23):
vehicle, that they didn't quiteknow how to fully resolve.
But I do think that it is aninteresting kind of, especially
in terms of the arc of thisbeginning of the whole of this
season, and particularly thesetwo episodes of Lucifer coming
to face his own self loathingand sort of trying to figure out
(16:48):
who he is and being afraid ofwho he is.
I think it's really interestingthat push and pull of punishing
human versus human justiceversus all of that kind of back
and forth, and in relation tothese two women, I mean they
were real clear about the angeland devil on your shoulder In
(17:13):
Tirenin's office with the angeland the devil on his shoulder,
Well, they're even wearing.
I know Eve was wearing red, wasChloe wearing blue?
Chloe's wearing like horizontalstripe and like a blazer, so
that she wasn't like in a whitedress or something.
Yeah, you know even more so,but regardless, it was clear,
(17:35):
don't do it.
You know like, even like thewords they were using yeah, in
the superego, duking it out,yeah, yeah.
One thing that I think isinteresting in this moment in
there, when Chloe goes to Ella,and then this is after Lucifer
(17:58):
has admitted to Chloe that hebroke Julian's back, and
actually I want to I do want togive Lauren German a shout out
for her acting in that scene,because the reaction was
actually felt like really welldone, where she's like holding
back tears because she's sohorrified and yeah, like I
really appreciated that.
But anyway, so Chloe's kind oflike how do I deal with this?
(18:20):
I don't understand this.
So when she asked Ella, you knowlike, well, you're religious,
so you know what's.
If there's justice after death,then why are we bothering?
And I love both of Ella'sresponses.
One is that, like you know,when I believed in God, I
believed that I was doing theright thing to help bring about
(18:46):
goodness and justice.
And you know they don't have toclean the lawn in Catholicism.
But, you know, I assume there'ssimilar ideas and now I'm like
we're all we got, so gotta do it.
And I really appreciated bothof those because it's like there
is a little bit of room forunderstanding that the human
(19:12):
version of justice isn't perfect.
But it's what we've got and Ican do more by trying to work
within it than if I just, youknow, take a pass and say look
like God sort it out.
I also think it gets to aninteresting aspect of Ella's
crisis of faith as well, thatrealizing that we're all we've
(19:36):
got is devastating to her,whereas in some ways I find that
kind of comforting.
Yeah, and again, like there's,there's so many differences
between Catholicism and Judaism,one of the big ones being that,
you know, and I actuallysuspect, catholicism is like
this too, but Christianity as awhole is not.
But believing in God is notnecessary to being Jewish, or a
(20:01):
good Jew even.
And so, like you know, havingdoubts about whether or not
there will be any kind of, youknow, cosmic or celestial
justice does not affect how Iconduct myself as a Jewish
person, and I anyway, I just Ifound that entire scene really
really interesting.
(20:21):
I really felt for Ella becauseshe's like spiraling and you
know this person that she reallylooks up to is doing a Lucifer
and making it all about.
You know the thing that she'sshe's ruminating on yeah, so it
was really.
If I'm going to overthink thatparticular scene, I know
celestial is the adjective thatthey use on the show.
(20:43):
Like, within the world of theshow, nobody friggin says that
yeah.
So if Chloe actually had thatconversation with Ella, she
wouldn't say do you believe incelestial justice?
Yeah, she might say divine, yeah, you know, or God, or cosmic.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know she's a celestial yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Like it's just.
I mean, I know that is whatthey use on the show, but that
to me that phrase, absent thisshow sounds like astrology, I
know, as opposed to like God andthe devil.
Yeah, so that like, just as anoverthinking moment, like that
actual piece of dialogue, justlike kind of felt flat for me
when she says do you thinkthere's such a thing, because I
(21:21):
know you're religious, Like whosays that?
Nobody friggin says that.
It's just not, that's not aphrase.
So anyway, that's just like asmall overthinking moment for
that particular scene.
Yeah, yeah, I think one onething.
(21:41):
I will note that on rewatch Ididn't, I don't think I picked
up on it initially, but onrewatch because I know what's
coming Like, in the verybeginning of I think it's devil
is devil does, oh, I don't know,in the very beginning of one of
these episodes, chloe gets acall and she gets angry Like no,
I will not accept the call, andit's from father, whatever his
(22:02):
name is Um Kinley.
Kinley I almost said McTavish,because that's the actor's last
name.
That's bad.
I was like Father McTavish no,that doesn't sound right, we
don't know that.
And it's like such a weirdmoment.
She's like nothing, and thenlike it comes back and like that
is what happened, like thatthey make that clear, that
(22:22):
that's the connection.
Like stop calling me or stopasking to speak with me.
Um, but in first watch, like Ijust kind of forgot.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Like that.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I did not make that connection, that that I mean
they.
They stuck it in so that itmade sense that she would go to
see him to make him stop, youknow, to just leave me alone.
I give you two minutes whereyou leave me alone, but in First
Watch it was just I was missedon me, it was lost on me.
(22:52):
It's the craze I'm looking for,yeah, and it's funny too,
because we talked about thatprophecy when we talked about
the first two episodes and youwere like I don't know, it's
just like not that interesting,Like it's a flowery.
They repeat it over and overagain in these two episodes,
(23:14):
which is pretty funny.
I also think one of the thingsin terms of story, in terms of
TV constructing, TV shows, thatI think our showrunners did
really, really well is theconversation, the cut scenes
between Amenezia Lin-Remi andLinda and you're so, and they
(23:35):
have that like scary music inthe background while Linda's
walking.
You're like, oh no, Remy'sgonna take you or something, and
like we didn't.
But the way they sort of builtthe tension so that you thought
you knew what was gonna happenand then that didn't happen, was
really interesting andsatisfying.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I love that subversion.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That tension release and that, yeah, that expectation
subversion was.
I found that very well done.
So we don't get to see Trixiemuch in the season but we do see
her in Devil.
Is this Devil Does?
It's the first time she's seenthe Penthouse which I've seen it
(24:15):
this time I was just like, oh,is that really the first time
she's been to the Penthouse?
It must be.
I mean, she's been to Luxbefore, but she's been to Lux
before.
But then again I'm like you'renot gonna let a 10-year-old
wander around Lux or Lucifer'sPenthouse, or Lucifer's
Penthouse, yeah, no, totallyfair.
So and she does have the kindof reaction like wow, you have
(24:41):
stairs up to your bedroom like aprincess.
Like a princess, like look,there's a hot tub on the roof.
What Hot tub on the balcony Onthe balcony.
So I appreciated that scene.
Now, story construction-wise,that was all about raising the
(25:02):
stakes for what Dan had done andall of that and also kind of
uniting Eve and Chloe in a waythat they were not.
But it also I felt like it wasvery much in character with
everyone, with the exception ofI don't know that Chloe would
make that phone call in front ofTrixie.
So I think that would have beenbetter if she had like walked
(25:24):
in on her, like saying itinstead of but whatever
45-minute show, give it to him.
But you know that Trixie wouldimmediately be like ears perked
up.
What's going on with Lucifer?
That she would remind her mom,like when someone's going
through stuff is when they needa friend most, that she would
sneak out because she's donethat before.
That's who she is, that shewould like want to know what the
(25:45):
hell is this woman all in reddoing and question her.
And then also that Eve is stillable to win her over.
She's sitting there like this.
It was the like what do you dofor work?
I don't, I just get to be me.
That's actually pretty great.
(26:05):
And then I like the otheraspect of that scene that I
really appreciate is the factthat the second Eve sees that
these are dangerous men comingin.
She grabs Trixie's hand andputs her behind her, even though
there's literally nothing shecan do other than be a human
(26:31):
shield, and gets her to safetyonce Lucifer starts doing his
glass crashing stuff.
I also I appreciate thecomplexity of all of this for
Dan's story arc in this seasonand these two episodes.
Like he's actually he is quitea good detective when talking to
(26:54):
Ella and she's like, well, I'msorry to be cleaned.
And then he's like, oh, I paidoff a cleaning company and got
the trash, like, okay, that'sgoing to be something like.
And because he's doing this,extra judicious, do judicially,
he doesn't need anything morethan the fact that it's
Lucifer's brand, you know,because he knows he's looking
for, for evidence of what healready knows to be true, but
(27:16):
because he was not working withChloe, he didn't know how
dangerous Tironan was.
So, anyway, all of that I foundreally really interesting and
character driven again, because,like he is, he is an
intelligent and diligentdetective and he's also corrupt.
(27:37):
You know he could.
He takes shortcuts, and so hewas doing that and he very
immediately saw how thatshortcut could have like
destroyed the thing he lovesbest in the world, yeah, and
then goes out seeking to bepunished himself.
Yes, and then after sleepingwith Ella, after sleeping with
Ella, I also want to say Ireally appreciate and I don't
(28:02):
watch like a lot of our longdramas, like I'm thinking like
Gray's and Adam.
You have never seen, you knowthose sorts of things.
But I feel like in other showsyou have two characters get
together like that, even if it'sjust like we're just comforting
each other because we're bothgoing through some shit right
now, that there wouldn't besomething lingering and I feel
(28:27):
like I like that.
This show was just like yeah,this is, this is a one time
thing.
That like was just becausethese two were gone through some
stuff and that's going to be it, rather than like maybe there's
some shippers out there, we cangive them a little loan, you
know, because I imagine therecould be.
I'm sure Dan would object tothat.
(28:49):
Oh, I didn't even think of that.
So so I appreciate that.
I appreciated that it's just.
You know how any long running TVshows get ridiculously
incestuous after a certainperiod of time.
Yeah, yeah, because of economy,of characters and the need for
(29:09):
new sex pairings.
Yes, and I'm not going to saythat the show doesn't do that
because, yeah, I mean that Ithink this pairing is a little
bit of that, but I think it alsowas meant to show just how like
Lost Lost each of them is, itboth are, and that actually that
kind of this is the kind ofthing that makes sense.
When you are feeling that kindof overwhelm, you turn to
(29:32):
someone close by.
You know, this is where whereeconomy of characters actually
makes sense, like you're goingto be, like, oh, you're here,
okay, yeah, come here, I'm goingto be with you.
So Not touching that one.
So, um, I want to overthink alittle bit, Like so I really
(30:01):
appreciated, especially I endedup watching devil is devil does
twice because I watched it andthen we canceled and so I
watched it again yesterday.
And the scene when he says toEve I need to do this and I need
to do it myself and it'simportant to me.
And then he sees his ownreflection in the glass and
(30:22):
that's just sort of the hintthat he checks the wings, but
that's the only hint that we get, that that happens, which I
actually, I actually quite liked.
I thought that was reallyinteresting, like making us even
subconsciously think about theway he is viewing himself.
So I appreciated that and thenoverthinking it where the hell
(30:44):
is Eve when Linda comes with thebat wings?
Yeah, yeah, she, she lives inthe bed.
She doesn't have any place elseto be unless she's downstairs
drinking, which I guess ispossible.
But maybe she's asleep, I mean,I guess, yeah, but yeah, I had
that thought too, particularlybecause because devastated was
(31:04):
first my favorite the tears thatdropped off his nose I'm like
he's been sitting there cryingand like, yeah, and I think they
just got pleased over thatQuietly.
I mean, he's not like and like,way in the like, like deep in
the corner, like let him to lookfor him.
Yeah, he's not like on the couchor in the expected places, he's
(31:24):
like against the wall, yeah,yeah.
So so maybe because, like youknow, he's trying to be quiet,
but Maybe, and also I don't know, maybe he doesn't think that
Eve would understand.
But I think when you arehurting you that much, I just
like Well, I'll come back to ourconversation about Dan and Ella
(31:44):
proximity.
Yeah, the thing is, though,she's part of the reason why
it's hurting.
You know, like, as he says inSuperbad Boyfriend, I don't like
who I am.
I don't like who I am when I'mwith you.
Yeah, and like and I reallyappreciate the like you know
it's you see the best in me toChloe.
(32:06):
You see who I could be, but Idon't know how that makes me
feel either.
It makes me feel yeah, yeah,which is so understandable, oh
my God, yeah.
And what's really interestingalso about that scene is when he
tells her like I've broken upwith her, I don't like who I am
(32:30):
with her, and she's like well,if it's what you want, it's for
the best.
And he's like it's what I want,and like you could Like there's
this suppressed Chloe, chloelike yeah, you're being pulled
that off.
Yeah, it's just like thissubtle, like slightly sitting up
, slightly taller, yeah, and soto then be hit with and like I
(32:50):
feel bad about myself when I'mwith you is like it's totally
relatable on Lucifer's part.
It's also like got to feeldevastating on Chloe's part,
like to be like oh gosh, I don'twant you to feel terrible.
And that final scene with Linda,where he's like you know, it's
(33:13):
all my father's fault, but andshe's, Do you truly believe that
?
He's like whatever you fiber mybeing but I also know it's a
lie Like wow, like grapplingwith that is Also the like.
You know he feels that there'ssomething rotten at the core of
him and that's the that.
(33:34):
You know he believes he's eviland he hates himself.
And hashtag relatable, I mean,and is that just part of the
human condition or is that, youknow, late 20th century, late
stage capitalism?
You know the world's on fire?
I mean, I don't think it's justthe world's on fire, yeah, like
(33:58):
, yeah that.
I mean I think about some ofthe moments in TV that have,
like, hit me the most, andthey've been when characters
have admitted that they hatethemselves.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a scene in Mom which islike I mean, it's like a
throwaway sitcom, it's on I meanI like Alice and Jenny or
whatever name is, but there'sthis one.
She's a Kenyan grad.
I know there's this one scene.
(34:21):
I mean I didn't even watch themall, but it has stayed with me.
I watched it four or five yearsago.
The daughter is like kind ofgiven her a hard time and for
not being there or whatever, andat a certain point the mom
Alice and Jenny says, if it'sany consolation, no one could
hate me more than I hate me.
(34:42):
And like, oh, I'm getting alittle teary, like just like
that feeling Sorry.
Yeah, well, it's kind of likewhat Lucifer says about Dan.
When Dan is like oh, there'sjust Detective Dan, he's a
douche.
Again.
Like, oh, should we punish him?
No, he's very existent, he'sexistent, he's punishment and it
(35:07):
was like he's not wrong andthat's.
It's particularly when I'mthinking, when Dan is trying to
goad Maze into punishing him,hurt him.
And when he's like you knowWell, if one thing he says like
you should have seen how Iplayed Ella, I'm like, yeah, no,
(35:28):
that's not what happened, dan.
Like you did something that gother uncomfortable and she
exited stage, left as quickly aspossible because she was
uncomfortable, you did not playher.
And then, second, he's likeasshole, is like us when you
just stick together, becausehe's feeling so terrible about
himself and so, and he wantssomeone else to feel bad and he
(35:54):
wants to externalize his badfeeling by being beat up.
You know, it's interestingthinking about this theme of
hating oneself.
The first date that we over herewith Maze is like a version of
herself, right, and she's likelook, I'm looking for a real
connection.
And the woman's like whateverI'm in, you're too clingy, this
(36:14):
will never work.
Like facing yourself and beinglike I don't want that.
I mean I think these it was, Imean it was there for like laugh
, you know, for chuckle factor.
But actually there's somethingreally deep and related to all
of the other things you know inthat.
(36:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Well, and it's it kind of helpedexplain why Maze is so drawn to
Eve, because she seems to kindof she brings out the essence of
a person, whoever she is, andso she like brings out the
essence of May's in a way thatshe feels comfortable with.
(36:58):
In a way that May's feelscomfortable, yes, in a way that
May's feels comfortable with.
Yeah, so like the role playing,like, okay, pretend we're on a
date and she's like oh, this isso hard.
You know how, like, how do I dothis, how do I do that?
And it's still difficult.
But she finds it easier withEve, to the point where you know
(37:18):
the handsome guy with theflowers who's her 22nd date.
She blows them off and I feellike that is fitting for the
characterization they have ofEve, particularly when they talk
about how she met every human,every new soul coming through
the pearly gates to find outabout what their life was like.
And she's, she's just, she'sinterested in other people,
(37:41):
without putting her own into aninterpreter Well, no, that's not
true Like because she puts herown interpretation on Lucifer.
But she, she is, she is deeplyinterested in what other people
are like, and even like, when,when Trixie asks her what's your
favorite color red, what'syours I'm the one asking you
questions, lady.
But the fact that sheimmediately is just like tell me
(38:02):
yours, I want, I want to knowabout you.
Yeah, all right, I am lookingat the time and really think
we've been talking for a longminute now.
So, unless you have some finallike overthinking moments,
perhaps we should transition tofluff.
No, I don't think that I do.
Oh, I do, a menadil givingCaleb his necklace, which we
(38:28):
will see come back into a storylater but the.
I just kind of want to take amoment to appreciate that.
That scene, which was when Istarted sobbing while watching
this, just because the kid looksso young.
Yeah, he is.
I mean, I mean he's 16 maybe.
And I'm sure, the actor'sprobably 19 or 20, but whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
No, but the character is meant to be 17, 17 pops.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, yeah, you know he's a kid and that a menadil
says about the necklace andagain, this is very good writing
, like when to hear the drugdealer asks for it as collateral
.
He's like this is priceless.
My father gave it to me, makingit sound like it's not anything
he would ever give up.
Right, and he does.
(39:15):
And then there's the briefmoment where he looks up and
gives us, as the audience, thereassurance that Caleb is in
heaven, which, like, I'm of twominds about, because on the one
hand, I'm like I don't like theidea of heaven when you're
talking about children dying,because then you can have people
(39:38):
.
Well, at least they got a happyending, you know, like at least
things are better now and it'sjust like they're in a better
place and like that can be atype of comfort, but it can also
be a cop out.
It's interesting that you readit that way.
That is not how I read it.
I see that reading and I hearit.
(39:59):
I agree with you.
That definitely could be anintention or a fair
interpretation.
I saw it more as looking at hisfather, like how could you let
this happen?
Like, especially since thenecklace is tied to God, and so
by giving the necklace to.
(40:20):
Well, I mean giving the childis dead, but by placing the
necklace on the body, there is acontinuation of the fatherly
relationship, since the necklacecame from a Mededal's father ie
God.
But then I saw that look uptoward the ceiling as like how
(40:43):
could you, yeah, how could youlet this happen?
How could you let this get thisbad?
I think that your reading is afair one, but it was not my
initial reading of that Iappreciate your reading of it
because I find that easier to.
(41:03):
I want to be angry about thechild's death.
Yeah, well, and a Mededal is,oh, and I don't think that he's
not, it's just They've losttheir way and I can't raise a
child here.
But that's sort of like I thinkin combination is part of why I
read it that way.
They've lost their way.
But there's also like a howcould you let them?
(41:25):
Yeah, it was their way.
Like this yeah, at least that'sthe way I read the upturned
eyes and this is actually alittle fluff from that scene.
The body's still wearing whathe was killed in, like in the
morgue.
We know he has parents becauseMededal spoke to them.
Yeah, he's not going to beburied in that, like what I.
(41:49):
I Like if, for overthinking, hewouldn't be in an open drawer
with nobody around either.
I mean now when I just assume,like a Mededal knows people, so
they like open it for him, andthen they stepped away to get
him to talk, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
All right.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I did.
I midrashed that Fair but theso I guess if I'm going to
midrash that I can midrash.
Like he said to the parentsbecause he's spoken to them.
He would need a lot to me ifyou would allow Caleb to be
buried in the necklace.
I think that that's perfectlyreasonable.
Like and considering what hehas done for Caleb and the, I
(42:29):
can see in parents.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, here's where I may not.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I mean, I guess they do know some of it because he
spoke with them while he was injail and murdered.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, so this could be a long episode.
We're our long one we need.
We need to learn to be like moreconcise.
So how does more concise andoverthinking it go together?
I don't know.
I recently have a new clientwho they are giving me 250 word
(42:55):
assignments and I'm like Icannot do that.
This is like sweet, I know, Iknow, and like I really
appreciate it.
It's a great assignment.
It's for AARP.
I'm writing for AARP, which isreally exciting to me.
I'm an old but I'm older thanyou are.
(43:15):
So 250 words is just like, likeit's like the garnish on a
steak.
I mean, like I can't get to thesteak.
It's not even the gristle oranything, it's the garnish.
It's really hard.
So I'm like writing to theclient Like I will do my best to
(43:39):
be more, to be less verbose inthe future when I am writing
assignments for you.
I'm like, seriously, I'm anendeavor and I'm a writer who,
like when one word could do, Ifind 17.
I'm that kind of writer.
So like this is a challenge forme.
(44:07):
So overthinking does not go withbrevity.
All right, you know, if you'renot into the whole brevity thing
.
So fluff, fluff, fluff, allright.
Gosh, do I have to go first?
Do you have any fluff?
I'm sure we've got fluff,speaking Tom Ellis as the really
(44:30):
bad boyfriend, like wiping thecheese-curled-dust on his
t-shirt.
I would have thought thatnothing the man could do would
make him less attractive.
But I was wrong, because thatwas gross.
That just was gross.
I think he's wearing tidywhiteies in that scene as well.
I don't know, I have to watchagain.
I was multitasking.
I'm not like it was one ofthose.
(44:51):
I'm not sure.
That was something LatoyaFerguson mentioned and I was
just like really, and I wentback and looked and there's no
way of knowing for sure, but yousee a lot of leg and I think
it's quite possible.
So I do want to point out thathis fantasy football league was
(45:14):
called Show Us your TDs.
So Because I was like what isthat STDs?
I'm like no, that's T.
Oh, I get it.
Well, I know what T.
I knew it was for touchdowns.
Oh, didn't get the titties.
Well, I got the titties, I gotthe titties, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I got the titties.
I got the titties.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I got the titties.
Yeah, I got it, but anyway so,but I found that pretty funny.
Oh, also during that montage.
Well, for one thing, like Iappreciated there's two sides of
it.
The one side I appreciate thatEve is just like I can play that
(45:51):
game.
On the other side, and she beatthem.
Yeah, yeah, praise, yeah, andlike I love that they're both
making out with the same woman,like when she comes, and he's
making out with a woman it's thesame woman that she's making
out with when he comes later.
So okay, but so on the one hand, like yay, she's beating him in
(46:12):
his own game.
On the other hand, she's likego do your own shit, eve.
That's the whole point.
I mean, that's the whole pointand that's the whole point.
That is.
And so it's all verycomprehensible and all of that.
But yeah, I, just as she saysshe's awesome, she's more than
awesome.
There's a light inside her thatbrightens the entire world and
(46:34):
her smile is so infectious andshe deserves to be her own
person, which she does not knowhow to be right now, in the same
way that he doesn't know how tobe his own person either.
And it's like, yeah, oh, onemore fluff.
Linda's reaction to Eve, likedon't you hate it when he takes
(46:56):
the exact wrong thing from whatyou said to him?
Oh, I know, how have we not metbefore?
This is amazing.
Yeah, I love that.
I also appreciate it.
There were two moments wherethey in these two episodes where
the actor had to like show uswith their gaze what it was that
(47:18):
either was green screen inlater or was off camera.
So when Amanda Deal watchesRemy fly and when Linda is
looking at Lucifer's fat devilwings and she's like looking up
and like, yeah, which, likethat's gotta be hard.
In some ways is like super oldschool, like Star Trek, but also
(47:41):
it worked.
Yeah, yeah, it did.
So that's my final little fluff.
Yeah, why are they like this?
Ah, sounds good.
See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(48:25):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hello there, I'm a little rusty, it's been a while.
I am here with my sister, tracyGuy Decker yes, hyphen.
And I'm here with my sister,emily Guy Berkin no, hyphen,
it's true.
And together we arelightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
(01:37):
.
And you bet your sweet ass,we're overthinking it.
We really are so much.
And today we are going to betalking about episodes 407 and
408 devil is this, devil does,and super bad boyfriend.
And these are they're.
They're excellent episodes ofTV, but they're, they're dark.
(01:57):
There's, there's some realdarkness in this.
I'm really looking forward totalking about it, but I also,
like, was a little bit dreadingwatching them, although in some
ways I mean, as you have pointedout multiple times, like when
Lucifer hates himself, like whenhe's your, your favorite
Lucifer is the devil studentLucifer.
(02:18):
And so the self loathing inthese episodes.
There's a lot of pathos there.
It's actually.
It's not.
It's not Lucifer is not thereason why I feel that way.
It's, it's actually a menadil.
The, the actual.
Finally, reckoning with theracism in the LAPD and the real
meaning of raising a black boyin America in the 21st century.
(02:43):
Yeah, yeah, why.
I like oppression?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whenyou, when you like.
I mean not to jump into thesecond episode, but I, you know,
I watched them this morningbefore we got on and I found
myself thinking if a parent of ablack child, boy or girl, had
(03:07):
an option to raise their childsomewhere other than here you,
of course, it would be temptingto do so.
Yeah, and you know, there's thevery in your face issue that he
sees, with Caleb being pushedto the ground and violently
(03:27):
arrested when he was not in anyway resisting arrest or posing
problem anything.
But then there's the, thesmaller things I have been
reading a little bit about andsmaller is it's hard to say so
it's not as in your face of,like the, the types of
(03:49):
microaggressions and and issuesthat people of color face just
navigating the world, and howexhausting that is, and and the,
the amount of stress that putson literally people's lives.
Exactly, yes, and watching thatepisode for one thing.
Now my kids are not Caleb's age, but my, my eldest, just turned
(04:13):
12.
For the first time since Ifirst watched this, I can see,
like what it's like to parents ateenager in a way that I hadn't
before, and how terrifying thathas to be for parents of
particularly black boys.
(04:34):
But you know, and any, anyteenager who is from
marginalized community and andand recognizing how violent the
world can be towards them, itjust I, like I was crying, like
through that whole whole episode, particularly because I knew it
was coming and that there's no,there's no good resolution for
(04:56):
it.
And I was wondering you hadtalked about.
In season six they grapple withthis issue again in a any even
deeper way, and I appreciatethat.
And you had said that you heardDB Woodside give a an interview
where he talked about he made anuisance of himself to the
writers to make sure they didthat, and I was wondering if he
(05:17):
had any input or effect on thisone.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't, Ido not know the answer.
The the interview that I sawwas specifically about what
happens in season six, althoughI think I mean in my mind,
especially because we pairedthese two episodes together,
like they needed to swing back,because the in devil is as devil
(05:39):
does the.
Chloe makes a very clearequivalence between the cops
being the good guys doing it theright way, yeah, yeah.
And the extra judicial justicethat Lucifer is trying to enact,
which I'm not condoning no,okay, me wrong, like actually I
(06:00):
don't, I'm not saying that'sright either and also like the
assumption that because it's notextra judicial, it's therefore
right, is like fundamentallyflawed, yes, which they at least
acknowledge in SuperbadBoyfriend, with the story arc of
Caleb and and what happens tohim.
(06:22):
And I mean, and they bring usalong, they do acknowledge it
and they bring us along becausewhen Chloe says I promise we're
going to figure out who did this, and then Lucifer walks up
behind Amenadiel, amenadiel saysI know who did this and Lucifer
says I'll drive, I'll drive,right, and then we see the angel
like pummeling the piss out ofthe murderer of his friend and
(06:44):
we're with him, right, like thewriters have written it so that
we are sympathetic to that extrajudicial punishment.
But in my mind that was like adirect, necessary kind of
correction to the over thepropaganda.
Yeah, yeah, I mean thepropaganda in devil is as devil
(07:07):
does is strong, it's overt.
Yeah, we do have Dan as acorrupt cop covering his tracks
for a person, but basically apersonal vendetta against
Lucifer that almost got his ownchild.
Yeah, so it's not like it's notproblematized, but it's also
(07:30):
not countered.
Yes, and the problematizing isvery much the, the propaganda
that it's one bad apple.
Yeah, so that if Dan were tofind another job then the LAPD
would be just fine, which is forone thing.
I want to make sure that I saythis the damn expression is one
(07:54):
bad apple spoils the bunch.
The whole barrel, yes, yes,which is just like.
That's the thing that reallydrives me crazy.
Me too, it's just like you say,oh, it's one bad apple, whatever
, no big deal.
I'm like, no, no, no, the wholething is about if there's one
bad apple, everything bad, itspoils the whole barrel because,
because I mean, like thereactually is whatever the
phylloxin biology and likewhatever the rat spreads, yeah,
(08:19):
it doesn't say contain to theone bad apple, as if you could
just pick it out and then it'sall good.
Yeah, there's a food writernamed Helen Rosen, who I love,
who, and I can't remember thespecific time because there's
been so many, but it wasprobably about George Floyd's
murderer.
But at some point she said Iwould like to talk about where
(08:41):
the one that apple spoils intoour barrel, the idiom, comes
from.
And she went into the scienceof it and it was very much, it
was very pointed, and yet at thesame time it was all in her
lane, it was all about food.
So, anyway, so we get to see inSuperbad Boyfriend that this is
(09:01):
a systemic issue, because evenwhen, like Dan's like, oh, those
hothead cowboys were out ofline, she's like, can you say a
little stronger than that?
And like I'm going to, you know, file a complaint for excessive
force.
Excessive force, and like whenMen of Deals like and what's
going to happen because of that?
(09:22):
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
Because and there is there issome fairness to the idea that
human justice is just asimperfect as humanity, which
means that we create our ownbiases over and over and over
again.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat, yeah yeah, there was also
(09:45):
the moment when, like, a Men ofDeals is like is it because of
the color of my skin, orwhatever?
And Dan is like how dare you?
Which is totally accurate inthe way that that is exactly how
he would react.
Yeah, and also like in theoriginal, like at the original
air date I'm not sure how muchlike pushback or greater
(10:10):
questioning that moment received.
Watching it now in 2022.
I'm like shoe fits.
I did wonder, because I'vementioned that I really like
Latoya Ferguson, who is thewriter for the AV club who does
the reviews of Lucifer, and sheis black and she mentioned about
(10:34):
in that scene if there was anyaspect of the fact that Dan is
Latino, so he is a person ofcolor as well and has also had
to navigate racism andmarginalization and things like
that in that.
How dare you?
And it made me feel like thatcould have been a stronger
(10:57):
although it wouldn't have madesense character wise, but could
have been a stronger message ifit had been Chloe saying how
dare you?
just because that is very muchwhat except that it went
completely on examines by eitherof them.
Yeah, I'm not sure Like I thinkit could have been stronger,
even with Dan, if it hadactually then received any kind
of examination from either ofthem.
Yeah, right, like you know, butanyway, yeah, just while I'm
(11:22):
drinking my coffee this isreally fluff, but I just want to
like to bring down thetemperature a little bit Ella's
mug that has a picture of her onit and then on the bottom
Another picture of her, anotherpicture of her.
And I was just like where doesone find the company that does
that?
Because I want a mug that I canput something on the bottom of
(11:43):
too.
Yeah, that was I'm also wearingmy new very Ellis shirt.
So I was just like, in honor ofthis, I was like I'll wear my
new unicorn 80s style shirt.
So, in any case, let's talkabout some Jacob Tierenin, the
father of the human traffic, orpiece of crap, and also what the
(12:08):
heck's going on with his office.
What is the weird thing?
Like what he gets interrupteddoing is like dusting the model
of a ship with container, likecouldn't you have had a?
Yeah, what a weird thing.
Like he's a CEO, like doesn'the?
Yeah, wiping, it's so weird, soweird, which I'm just like I
(12:32):
can tell, like I mean, I guess,I don't know, I guess when you
have that much money, you don'thave to worry about your
appearance.
But like he was like total,like Bernie Sanders hair and
like like crazy eyebrows andlike I don't know, he didn't
read as like.
I mean, I guess he was meant tobe like accept, eccentric,
billionaire kind of look, but hejust read as like well, he had
(12:57):
to.
Like like a nudist hippie, Imean.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
So oh right, right.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You know they were no longer together, but like
clearly, well, and she was, shewas deceased.
Yes, yes, yeah.
So and I got, I thought Iremembered that they were
divorced Because otherwise hewould have he, if they had been
together when she died.
Unless she specifically left itto Julian, right, he would have
(13:23):
gone to him, but he had takenher maiden name, yeah.
They were they were definitely.
Yeah, that's the Julian hadtaken her maiden name.
Yeah, they were.
I definitely think that theywere no longer together.
Yeah, anyway, yeah, Okay.
So let's talk about Jacob Ternan.
Yeah, so it's thinking about,like Lucifer's motivation.
(13:45):
So he let McCaffrey go becausehe didn't want to be a monster,
and McCaffrey shot rookie Joan,so he went and like broke his
back and enjoyed it, and thenthis other guy, who is at least
(14:07):
innocent of having broken hisback it sounds like he's a, like
drug dealer and you know, not agreat person, but still did not
break Julian McCaffrey's backis tortured and murdered in
retaliation, and so then and itfeels like this is the beginning
of a downward spiral, becausehe goes like I did that, and now
(14:30):
someone else is dead and it's.
I remember I have a friendwho's a crime novelist and he
said that his, his, in his view,noir is when character makes a
bad decision and then keepsmaking worse decisions trying to
fix the first bad decision.
And that's what this feels likeit could have become, because,
(14:53):
like you know, once you wentafter Ternan, like who knows
where that would have led to,but at the same time, every
single thing that he does isalso very relatable and not
justifiable, but like somethingyou could see a person doing to,
because they they want to dothe right thing.
(15:15):
You know it's, it feels likehe's trying to do the right
thing.
What's interesting is thetension that I mean especially
with inherent in the propagandaand the and the brokenness of
the human justice system is, orat least the American one, like
you're reminding me that in theprevious episode, when he lets
(15:35):
Julian go, he has him and he'slike pushing his face into like
a belt sander or something LikeI don't know why that's there,
but whatever it is like he's andthen he says to him, as he lets
him go, let the police dealwith you.
Like, basically, I'll let thehumans do their human thing,
which I'm just right nowtracking sort of the pendulum of
(15:58):
that working and not working.
You know, like that's why heled Julian go.
Then Joan dies, then Dan ispissed as heck that Joan has
died and then he like the whole.
I don't know.
There's just something I thinkeven then the writers were
holding in some tension withtheir vehicle, their propaganda
(16:23):
vehicle, that they didn't quiteknow how to fully resolve.
But I do think that it is aninteresting kind of, especially
in terms of the arc of thisbeginning of the whole of this
season, and particularly thesetwo episodes of Lucifer coming
to face his own self loathingand sort of trying to figure out
(16:48):
who he is and being afraid ofwho he is.
I think it's really interestingthat push and pull of punishing
human versus human justiceversus all of that kind of back
and forth, and in relation tothese two women, I mean they
were real clear about the angeland devil on your shoulder In
(17:13):
Tirenin's office with the angeland the devil on his shoulder,
Well, they're even wearing.
I know Eve was wearing red, wasChloe wearing blue?
Chloe's wearing like horizontalstripe and like a blazer, so
that she wasn't like in a whitedress or something.
Yeah, you know even more so,but regardless, it was clear,
(17:35):
don't do it.
You know like, even like thewords they were using yeah, in
the superego, duking it out,yeah, yeah.
One thing that I think isinteresting in this moment in
there, when Chloe goes to Ella,and then this is after Lucifer
(17:58):
has admitted to Chloe that hebroke Julian's back, and
actually I want to I do want togive Lauren German a shout out
for her acting in that scene,because the reaction was
actually felt like really welldone, where she's like holding
back tears because she's sohorrified and yeah, like I
really appreciated that.
But anyway, so Chloe's kind oflike how do I deal with this?
(18:20):
I don't understand this.
So when she asked Ella, you knowlike, well, you're religious,
so you know what's.
If there's justice after death,then why are we bothering?
And I love both of Ella'sresponses.
One is that, like you know,when I believed in God, I
believed that I was doing theright thing to help bring about
(18:46):
goodness and justice.
And you know they don't have toclean the lawn in Catholicism.
But, you know, I assume there'ssimilar ideas and now I'm like
we're all we got, so gotta do it.
And I really appreciated bothof those because it's like there
is a little bit of room forunderstanding that the human
(19:12):
version of justice isn't perfect.
But it's what we've got and Ican do more by trying to work
within it than if I just, youknow, take a pass and say look
like God sort it out.
I also think it gets to aninteresting aspect of Ella's
crisis of faith as well, thatrealizing that we're all we've
(19:36):
got is devastating to her,whereas in some ways I find that
kind of comforting.
Yeah, and again, like there's,there's so many differences
between Catholicism and Judaism,one of the big ones being that,
you know, and I actuallysuspect, catholicism is like
this too, but Christianity as awhole is not.
But believing in God is notnecessary to being Jewish, or a
(20:01):
good Jew even.
And so, like you know, havingdoubts about whether or not
there will be any kind of, youknow, cosmic or celestial
justice does not affect how Iconduct myself as a Jewish
person, and I anyway, I just Ifound that entire scene really
really interesting.
(20:21):
I really felt for Ella becauseshe's like spiraling and you
know this person that she reallylooks up to is doing a Lucifer
and making it all about.
You know the thing that she'sshe's ruminating on yeah, so it
was really.
If I'm going to overthink thatparticular scene, I know
celestial is the adjective thatthey use on the show.
(20:43):
Like, within the world of theshow, nobody friggin says that
yeah.
So if Chloe actually had thatconversation with Ella, she
wouldn't say do you believe incelestial justice?
Yeah, she might say divine, yeah, you know, or God, or cosmic.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You know she's a celestial yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Like it's just.
I mean, I know that is whatthey use on the show, but that
to me that phrase, absent thisshow sounds like astrology, I
know, as opposed to like God andthe devil.
Yeah, so that like, just as anoverthinking moment, like that
actual piece of dialogue, justlike kind of felt flat for me
when she says do you thinkthere's such a thing, because I
(21:21):
know you're religious, Like whosays that?
Nobody friggin says that.
It's just not, that's not aphrase.
So anyway, that's just like asmall overthinking moment for
that particular scene.
Yeah, yeah, I think one onething.
(21:41):
I will note that on rewatch Ididn't, I don't think I picked
up on it initially, but onrewatch because I know what's
coming Like, in the verybeginning of I think it's devil
is devil does, oh, I don't know,in the very beginning of one of
these episodes, chloe gets acall and she gets angry Like no,
I will not accept the call, andit's from father, whatever his
(22:02):
name is Um Kinley.
Kinley I almost said McTavish,because that's the actor's last
name.
That's bad.
I was like Father McTavish no,that doesn't sound right, we
don't know that.
And it's like such a weirdmoment.
She's like nothing, and thenlike it comes back and like that
is what happened, like thatthey make that clear, that
(22:22):
that's the connection.
Like stop calling me or stopasking to speak with me.
Um, but in first watch, like Ijust kind of forgot.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Like that.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I did not make that connection, that that I mean
they.
They stuck it in so that itmade sense that she would go to
see him to make him stop, youknow, to just leave me alone.
I give you two minutes whereyou leave me alone, but in First
Watch it was just I was missedon me, it was lost on me.
(22:52):
It's the craze I'm looking for,yeah, and it's funny too,
because we talked about thatprophecy when we talked about
the first two episodes and youwere like I don't know, it's
just like not that interesting,Like it's a flowery.
They repeat it over and overagain in these two episodes,
(23:14):
which is pretty funny.
I also think one of the thingsin terms of story, in terms of
TV constructing, TV shows, thatI think our showrunners did
really, really well is theconversation, the cut scenes
between Amenezia Lin-Remi andLinda and you're so, and they
(23:35):
have that like scary music inthe background while Linda's
walking.
You're like, oh no, Remy'sgonna take you or something, and
like we didn't.
But the way they sort of builtthe tension so that you thought
you knew what was gonna happenand then that didn't happen, was
really interesting andsatisfying.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I love that subversion.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That tension release and that, yeah, that expectation
subversion was.
I found that very well done.
So we don't get to see Trixiemuch in the season but we do see
her in Devil.
Is this Devil Does?
It's the first time she's seenthe Penthouse which I've seen it
(24:15):
this time I was just like, oh,is that really the first time
she's been to the Penthouse?
It must be.
I mean, she's been to Luxbefore, but she's been to Lux
before.
But then again I'm like you'renot gonna let a 10-year-old
wander around Lux or Lucifer'sPenthouse, or Lucifer's
Penthouse, yeah, no, totallyfair.
So and she does have the kindof reaction like wow, you have
(24:41):
stairs up to your bedroom like aprincess.
Like a princess, like look,there's a hot tub on the roof.
What Hot tub on the balcony Onthe balcony.
So I appreciated that scene.
Now, story construction-wise,that was all about raising the
(25:02):
stakes for what Dan had done andall of that and also kind of
uniting Eve and Chloe in a waythat they were not.
But it also I felt like it wasvery much in character with
everyone, with the exception ofI don't know that Chloe would
make that phone call in front ofTrixie.
So I think that would have beenbetter if she had like walked
(25:24):
in on her, like saying itinstead of but whatever
45-minute show, give it to him.
But you know that Trixie wouldimmediately be like ears perked
up.
What's going on with Lucifer?
That she would remind her mom,like when someone's going
through stuff is when they needa friend most, that she would
sneak out because she's donethat before.
That's who she is, that shewould like want to know what the
(25:45):
hell is this woman all in reddoing and question her.
And then also that Eve is stillable to win her over.
She's sitting there like this.
It was the like what do you dofor work?
I don't, I just get to be me.
That's actually pretty great.
(26:05):
And then I like the otheraspect of that scene that I
really appreciate is the factthat the second Eve sees that
these are dangerous men comingin.
She grabs Trixie's hand andputs her behind her, even though
there's literally nothing shecan do other than be a human
(26:31):
shield, and gets her to safetyonce Lucifer starts doing his
glass crashing stuff.
I also I appreciate thecomplexity of all of this for
Dan's story arc in this seasonand these two episodes.
Like he's actually he is quitea good detective when talking to
(26:54):
Ella and she's like, well, I'msorry to be cleaned.
And then he's like, oh, I paidoff a cleaning company and got
the trash, like, okay, that'sgoing to be something like.
And because he's doing this,extra judicious, do judicially,
he doesn't need anything morethan the fact that it's
Lucifer's brand, you know,because he knows he's looking
for, for evidence of what healready knows to be true, but
(27:16):
because he was not working withChloe, he didn't know how
dangerous Tironan was.
So, anyway, all of that I foundreally really interesting and
character driven again, because,like he is, he is an
intelligent and diligentdetective and he's also corrupt.
(27:37):
You know he could.
He takes shortcuts, and so hewas doing that and he very
immediately saw how thatshortcut could have like
destroyed the thing he lovesbest in the world, yeah, and
then goes out seeking to bepunished himself.
Yes, and then after sleepingwith Ella, after sleeping with
Ella, I also want to say Ireally appreciate and I don't
(28:02):
watch like a lot of our longdramas, like I'm thinking like
Gray's and Adam.
You have never seen, you knowthose sorts of things.
But I feel like in other showsyou have two characters get
together like that, even if it'sjust like we're just comforting
each other because we're bothgoing through some shit right
now, that there wouldn't besomething lingering and I feel
(28:27):
like I like that.
This show was just like yeah,this is, this is a one time
thing.
That like was just becausethese two were gone through some
stuff and that's going to be it, rather than like maybe there's
some shippers out there, we cangive them a little loan, you
know, because I imagine therecould be.
I'm sure Dan would object tothat.
(28:49):
Oh, I didn't even think of that.
So so I appreciate that.
I appreciated that it's just.
You know how any long running TVshows get ridiculously
incestuous after a certainperiod of time.
Yeah, yeah, because of economy,of characters and the need for
(29:09):
new sex pairings.
Yes, and I'm not going to saythat the show doesn't do that
because, yeah, I mean that Ithink this pairing is a little
bit of that, but I think it alsowas meant to show just how like
Lost Lost each of them is, itboth are, and that actually that
kind of this is the kind ofthing that makes sense.
When you are feeling that kindof overwhelm, you turn to
(29:32):
someone close by.
You know, this is where whereeconomy of characters actually
makes sense, like you're goingto be, like, oh, you're here,
okay, yeah, come here, I'm goingto be with you.
So Not touching that one.
So, um, I want to overthink alittle bit, Like so I really
(30:01):
appreciated, especially I endedup watching devil is devil does
twice because I watched it andthen we canceled and so I
watched it again yesterday.
And the scene when he says toEve I need to do this and I need
to do it myself and it'simportant to me.
And then he sees his ownreflection in the glass and
(30:22):
that's just sort of the hintthat he checks the wings, but
that's the only hint that we get, that that happens, which I
actually, I actually quite liked.
I thought that was reallyinteresting, like making us even
subconsciously think about theway he is viewing himself.
So I appreciated that and thenoverthinking it where the hell
(30:44):
is Eve when Linda comes with thebat wings?
Yeah, yeah, she, she lives inthe bed.
She doesn't have any place elseto be unless she's downstairs
drinking, which I guess ispossible.
But maybe she's asleep, I mean,I guess, yeah, but yeah, I had
that thought too, particularlybecause because devastated was
(31:04):
first my favorite the tears thatdropped off his nose I'm like
he's been sitting there cryingand like, yeah, and I think they
just got pleased over thatQuietly.
I mean, he's not like and like,way in the like, like deep in
the corner, like let him to lookfor him.
Yeah, he's not like on the couchor in the expected places, he's
(31:24):
like against the wall, yeah,yeah.
So so maybe because, like youknow, he's trying to be quiet,
but Maybe, and also I don't know, maybe he doesn't think that
Eve would understand.
But I think when you arehurting you that much, I just
like Well, I'll come back to ourconversation about Dan and Ella
(31:44):
proximity.
Yeah, the thing is, though,she's part of the reason why
it's hurting.
You know, like, as he says inSuperbad Boyfriend, I don't like
who I am.
I don't like who I am when I'mwith you.
Yeah, and like and I reallyappreciate the like you know
it's you see the best in me toChloe.
(32:06):
You see who I could be, but Idon't know how that makes me
feel either.
It makes me feel yeah, yeah,which is so understandable, oh
my God, yeah.
And what's really interestingalso about that scene is when he
tells her like I've broken upwith her, I don't like who I am
(32:30):
with her, and she's like well,if it's what you want, it's for
the best.
And he's like it's what I want,and like you could Like there's
this suppressed Chloe, chloelike yeah, you're being pulled
that off.
Yeah, it's just like thissubtle, like slightly sitting up
, slightly taller, yeah, and soto then be hit with and like I
(32:50):
feel bad about myself when I'mwith you is like it's totally
relatable on Lucifer's part.
It's also like got to feeldevastating on Chloe's part,
like to be like oh gosh, I don'twant you to feel terrible.
And that final scene with Linda,where he's like you know, it's
(33:13):
all my father's fault, but andshe's, Do you truly believe that
?
He's like whatever you fiber mybeing but I also know it's a
lie Like wow, like grapplingwith that is Also the like.
You know he feels that there'ssomething rotten at the core of
him and that's the that.
(33:34):
You know he believes he's eviland he hates himself.
And hashtag relatable, I mean,and is that just part of the
human condition or is that, youknow, late 20th century, late
stage capitalism?
You know the world's on fire?
I mean, I don't think it's justthe world's on fire, yeah, like
(33:58):
, yeah that.
I mean I think about some ofthe moments in TV that have,
like, hit me the most, andthey've been when characters
have admitted that they hatethemselves.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a scene in Mom which islike I mean, it's like a
throwaway sitcom, it's on I meanI like Alice and Jenny or
whatever name is, but there'sthis one.
She's a Kenyan grad.
I know there's this one scene.
(34:21):
I mean I didn't even watch themall, but it has stayed with me.
I watched it four or five yearsago.
The daughter is like kind ofgiven her a hard time and for
not being there or whatever, andat a certain point the mom
Alice and Jenny says, if it'sany consolation, no one could
hate me more than I hate me.
(34:42):
And like, oh, I'm getting alittle teary, like just like
that feeling Sorry.
Yeah, well, it's kind of likewhat Lucifer says about Dan.
When Dan is like oh, there'sjust Detective Dan, he's a
douche.
Again.
Like, oh, should we punish him?
No, he's very existent, he'sexistent, he's punishment and it
(35:07):
was like he's not wrong andthat's.
It's particularly when I'mthinking, when Dan is trying to
goad Maze into punishing him,hurt him.
And when he's like you knowWell, if one thing he says like
you should have seen how Iplayed Ella, I'm like, yeah, no,
(35:28):
that's not what happened, dan.
Like you did something that gother uncomfortable and she
exited stage, left as quickly aspossible because she was
uncomfortable, you did not playher.
And then, second, he's likeasshole, is like us when you
just stick together, becausehe's feeling so terrible about
himself and so, and he wantssomeone else to feel bad and he
(35:54):
wants to externalize his badfeeling by being beat up.
You know, it's interestingthinking about this theme of
hating oneself.
The first date that we over herewith Maze is like a version of
herself, right, and she's likelook, I'm looking for a real
connection.
And the woman's like whateverI'm in, you're too clingy, this
(36:14):
will never work.
Like facing yourself and beinglike I don't want that.
I mean I think these it was, Imean it was there for like laugh
, you know, for chuckle factor.
But actually there's somethingreally deep and related to all
of the other things you know inthat.
(36:35):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Well, and it's it kind of helpedexplain why Maze is so drawn to
Eve, because she seems to kindof she brings out the essence of
a person, whoever she is, andso she like brings out the
essence of May's in a way thatshe feels comfortable with.
(36:58):
In a way that May's feelscomfortable, yes, in a way that
May's feels comfortable with.
Yeah, so like the role playing,like, okay, pretend we're on a
date and she's like oh, this isso hard.
You know how, like, how do I dothis, how do I do that?
And it's still difficult.
But she finds it easier withEve, to the point where you know
(37:18):
the handsome guy with theflowers who's her 22nd date.
She blows them off and I feellike that is fitting for the
characterization they have ofEve, particularly when they talk
about how she met every human,every new soul coming through
the pearly gates to find outabout what their life was like.
And she's, she's just, she'sinterested in other people,
(37:41):
without putting her own into aninterpreter Well, no, that's not
true Like because she puts herown interpretation on Lucifer.
But she, she is, she is deeplyinterested in what other people
are like, and even like, when,when Trixie asks her what's your
favorite color red, what'syours I'm the one asking you
questions, lady.
But the fact that sheimmediately is just like tell me
(38:02):
yours, I want, I want to knowabout you.
Yeah, all right, I am lookingat the time and really think
we've been talking for a longminute now.
So, unless you have some finallike overthinking moments,
perhaps we should transition tofluff.
No, I don't think that I do.
Oh, I do, a menadil givingCaleb his necklace, which we
(38:28):
will see come back into a storylater but the.
I just kind of want to take amoment to appreciate that.
That scene, which was when Istarted sobbing while watching
this, just because the kid looksso young.
Yeah, he is.
I mean, I mean he's 16 maybe.
And I'm sure, the actor'sprobably 19 or 20, but whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
No, but the character is meant to be 17, 17 pops.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, yeah, you know he's a kid and that a menadil
says about the necklace andagain, this is very good writing
, like when to hear the drugdealer asks for it as collateral
.
He's like this is priceless.
My father gave it to me, makingit sound like it's not anything
he would ever give up.
Right, and he does.
(39:15):
And then there's the briefmoment where he looks up and
gives us, as the audience, thereassurance that Caleb is in
heaven, which, like, I'm of twominds about, because on the one
hand, I'm like I don't like theidea of heaven when you're
talking about children dying,because then you can have people
(39:38):
.
Well, at least they got a happyending, you know, like at least
things are better now and it'sjust like they're in a better
place and like that can be atype of comfort, but it can also
be a cop out.
It's interesting that you readit that way.
That is not how I read it.
I see that reading and I hearit.
(39:59):
I agree with you.
That definitely could be anintention or a fair
interpretation.
I saw it more as looking at hisfather, like how could you let
this happen?
Like, especially since thenecklace is tied to God, and so
by giving the necklace to.
(40:20):
Well, I mean giving the childis dead, but by placing the
necklace on the body, there is acontinuation of the fatherly
relationship, since the necklacecame from a Mededal's father ie
God.
But then I saw that look uptoward the ceiling as like how
(40:43):
could you, yeah, how could youlet this happen?
How could you let this get thisbad?
I think that your reading is afair one, but it was not my
initial reading of that Iappreciate your reading of it
because I find that easier to.
(41:03):
I want to be angry about thechild's death.
Yeah, well, and a Mededal is,oh, and I don't think that he's
not, it's just They've losttheir way and I can't raise a
child here.
But that's sort of like I thinkin combination is part of why I
read it that way.
They've lost their way.
But there's also like a howcould you let them?
(41:25):
Yeah, it was their way.
Like this yeah, at least that'sthe way I read the upturned
eyes and this is actually alittle fluff from that scene.
The body's still wearing whathe was killed in, like in the
morgue.
We know he has parents becauseMededal spoke to them.
Yeah, he's not going to beburied in that, like what I.
(41:49):
I Like if, for overthinking, hewouldn't be in an open drawer
with nobody around either.
I mean now when I just assume,like a Mededal knows people, so
they like open it for him, andthen they stepped away to get
him to talk, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
All right.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I did.
I midrashed that Fair but theso I guess if I'm going to
midrash that I can midrash.
Like he said to the parentsbecause he's spoken to them.
He would need a lot to me ifyou would allow Caleb to be
buried in the necklace.
I think that that's perfectlyreasonable.
Like and considering what hehas done for Caleb and the, I
(42:29):
can see in parents.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
No, here's where I may not.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I mean, I guess they do know some of it because he
spoke with them while he was injail and murdered.
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, so this could be a long episode.
We're our long one we need.
We need to learn to be like moreconcise.
So how does more concise andoverthinking it go together?
I don't know.
I recently have a new clientwho they are giving me 250 word
(42:55):
assignments and I'm like Icannot do that.
This is like sweet, I know, Iknow, and like I really
appreciate it.
It's a great assignment.
It's for AARP.
I'm writing for AARP, which isreally exciting to me.
I'm an old but I'm older thanyou are.
(43:15):
So 250 words is just like, likeit's like the garnish on a
steak.
I mean, like I can't get to thesteak.
It's not even the gristle oranything, it's the garnish.
It's really hard.
So I'm like writing to theclient Like I will do my best to
(43:39):
be more, to be less verbose inthe future when I am writing
assignments for you.
I'm like, seriously, I'm anendeavor and I'm a writer who,
like when one word could do, Ifind 17.
I'm that kind of writer.
So like this is a challenge forme.
(44:07):
So overthinking does not go withbrevity.
All right, you know, if you'renot into the whole brevity thing
.
So fluff, fluff, fluff, allright.
Gosh, do I have to go first?
Do you have any fluff?
I'm sure we've got fluff,speaking Tom Ellis as the really
(44:30):
bad boyfriend, like wiping thecheese-curled-dust on his
t-shirt.
I would have thought thatnothing the man could do would
make him less attractive.
But I was wrong, because thatwas gross.
That just was gross.
I think he's wearing tidywhiteies in that scene as well.
I don't know, I have to watchagain.
I was multitasking.
I'm not like it was one ofthose.
(44:51):
I'm not sure.
That was something LatoyaFerguson mentioned and I was
just like really, and I wentback and looked and there's no
way of knowing for sure, but yousee a lot of leg and I think
it's quite possible.
So I do want to point out thathis fantasy football league was
(45:14):
called Show Us your TDs.
So Because I was like what isthat STDs?
I'm like no, that's T.
Oh, I get it.
Well, I know what T.
I knew it was for touchdowns.
Oh, didn't get the titties.
Well, I got the titties, I gotthe titties, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
I got the titties.
I got the titties.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I got the titties.
Yeah, I got it, but anyway so,but I found that pretty funny.
Oh, also during that montage.
Well, for one thing, like Iappreciated there's two sides of
it.
The one side I appreciate thatEve is just like I can play that
(45:51):
game.
On the other side, and she beatthem.
Yeah, yeah, praise, yeah, andlike I love that they're both
making out with the same woman,like when she comes, and he's
making out with a woman it's thesame woman that she's making
out with when he comes later.
So okay, but so on the one hand, like yay, she's beating him in
(46:12):
his own game.
On the other hand, she's likego do your own shit, eve.
That's the whole point.
I mean, that's the whole pointand that's the whole point.
That is.
And so it's all verycomprehensible and all of that.
But yeah, I, just as she saysshe's awesome, she's more than
awesome.
There's a light inside her thatbrightens the entire world and
(46:34):
her smile is so infectious andshe deserves to be her own
person, which she does not knowhow to be right now, in the same
way that he doesn't know how tobe his own person either.
And it's like, yeah, oh, onemore fluff.
Linda's reaction to Eve, likedon't you hate it when he takes
(46:56):
the exact wrong thing from whatyou said to him?
Oh, I know, how have we not metbefore?
This is amazing.
Yeah, I love that.
I also appreciate it.
There were two moments wherethey in these two episodes where
the actor had to like show uswith their gaze what it was that
(47:18):
either was green screen inlater or was off camera.
So when Amanda Deal watchesRemy fly and when Linda is
looking at Lucifer's fat devilwings and she's like looking up
and like, yeah, which, likethat's gotta be hard.
In some ways is like super oldschool, like Star Trek, but also
(47:41):
it worked.
Yeah, yeah, it did.
So that's my final little fluff.
Yeah, why are they like this?
Ah, sounds good.
See you next week.
See you next week.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetentcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(48:25):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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