March 14, 2024 • 45 mins
“Save Lucifer” and “Who’s da New King of Hell?” allow the Guy Girls to overthink everything from acting vs. directorial choices, to the nature of sin and guilt, to the possibility of a “happy ending” for an immortal being in love with an all-too-human one.
Tracie couldn’t wait to start the episode with her frustrations with Lauren German’s delivery of the emotional range required for Chloe’s (good, not great) dialogue, and we also spend significant time pondering the in-universe veracity of souls going to Hell immediately post-confession. We wonder over the seeming paucity of therapists in Los Angeles (is Linda really the only one?), and Emily is really into Kevin Alejandro’s beatboxing.
These two episodes were meant to be the final of the series when they were produced. Have a listen to the Guy Girls’ overthinking of whether or not they stuck the landing.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer.
For the plot yeah, the plotwhich they overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey there, I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken
.
She does not use Iphone, Idon't and I'm here with my
sister, tracy Guy-Dekker shedoes use Iphone, it's true.
And together we areLightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And, yeah, we're overthinkingit.
(01:35):
So today we're gonna beoverthinking episodes 409 and
410.
Save Lucifer and who's the newking of hell.
I know it's like so many things.
So the place I want to startwhich maybe is not the best
starting place, I'm gonna startthere anyway is near the end of
that episode, when Lucifer isjust fully transforming into his
(02:00):
most devil-y, monstrous devilself in the penthouse and he's
like basically having a meltdownand what brings him back is
that Chloe is like I'm stillhere, I'm not in a million
pieces and you need to forgiveyourself and like I have to say
that scene, that one scene inthe penthouse, is the reason I
(02:26):
don't like the one that'sChloe's after.
It is that scene specifically.
I think the writing is good, butnot great, at least her
dialogue.
But her delivery I just didn'tbuy it, like the way she keeps,
(02:50):
like it's not even that I thinkshe wouldn't be looking away
because it's hard to look at.
But she keeps looking up, like,are you looking to God for help
?
Are you like, frustrated andexasperated, like that's what I
do, like when my kids, when mykid won't put her shoes on and
it's time to leave, I'm like, oh, look up Right.
(03:12):
Like I just like none of it.
I bought none of it.
None of it.
I bought none of it.
And, like I said, the writingis I think it's good, but not
great.
Like the line that she has todeliver.
Like you're always so mad thatpeople blame you for stuff.
The devil made me do it and allthat.
Like I don't think that waswell written.
(03:34):
Like I think they could havepolished that better because it
didn't.
Well, the sentiment is good,it's just the sentiment.
The sentiment is good, theactual words though felt more
like written than spoken words.
Yeah, like the way she says thedevil made me do it.
Like it looks like written Ithink I would buy that, but like
spoken, it just didn't work.
(03:54):
And then she just didn'tdeliver it in a way that I
believed.
Like that specific scene iswhen, like I watched the first
time I watched this, I was like,oh, she's blowing it, she's
just perfect moment betweenthese two people.
I love it.
Oh my.
(04:15):
Oh, that makes me laugh.
Sorry, that was not the rightplace to start, but that is my
primary reaction to save Lizard,honestly.
Well, it puts into sharpcontrast how tough it is for
(04:35):
German, I think, to do whatother actors do really well,
which is like that seamlessblend of comedy and drama.
So I'm thinking like May's inthese two episodes, like she
does a lot with like her faceand comedic timing, like when
Eve is like what do you think Isthis more sexy, or is this more
(04:56):
sexy?
And you can tell she's goinglike oh damn, I'm gonna die, my
mouth is dry, I cannot talk, andit's like it's very funny.
But at the same time we alsosee her like lose her temper at
Eve.
We see her be totallyvulnerable with the song and so
like she's got that fullspectrum, whereas I feel like
(05:17):
Lauren German can handle likeaspects of the comedy really
really well.
But that dramatic scene whereit needs to come from, like this
deep place, we don't really see.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cause even inthe second one, in Huda Nuken,
hell, that scene on the balconythat should just like tug at my
heart, strings, like please, Ijust thought you know what if
(05:45):
she didn't, if they, if they'dhad her, say like I love you,
and he has that like heartbrokensmile like for, like, oh my God
, how does he do that with hisface?
And like, why do I want to lickhim Like that?
Anyway, if she didn't repeatherself, if she didn't look,
(06:07):
please, I love you the secondtime, I think I would.
I would be more like if she'djust let it sit, but Anyway,
yeah, so I'm sure she's a verynice woman.
Learn German I don't want to,and you know, nobody does
hard-boiled better than she doesthat like tough as nails.
Like Hell will freeze overbefore I sleep with you.
(06:29):
Like yeah.
I bought that way back inseason one.
I mean, I think, for whateverreason, this particular
emotional range just Doesn't,she isn't, she isn't conveying
it.
So it reminds me of Mark Hamillin the original Star Wars
trilogy, because when he washired to play Luke Skywalker For
the 1977 Star Wars, he was ayoung man playing a young man
(06:53):
and they're like he you boughtit, you bought that he was the
farm boy and then by the timeyou get to return of the Jedi,
he's supposed to be like this,more seasoned, you know Mm-hmm,
and it's harder, like you justdon't really see it from our
camel.
And the thing is he's aphenomenal actor, like he's
really good His voice acting asthe Joker for the Batman
(07:17):
animated series is it's supposedto be like Up there with Heath
Ledger is one of the best jokersever done.
So I have no doubt that he'scapable.
It's just that I thinksometimes the role grows in a
way that the actor isn't Mm-hmm,and I think that's that's what
happened with Chloe and LaurenGerman and I think German
(07:37):
actually grows into it a littlebit in season six.
There's a lot of that similaremotional range in season six
that I think she she gets there,at least gets closer.
For me, you know for me as aviewer, but at this moment, like
I had a hard time even stayingin Mm-hmm, like staying in the
world building of the LA ofLucifer, because I was so kind
(08:00):
of like distracted by her.
Well, and it doesn't help thatshe's she's up against Tom Ellis
, who is the phenomenally giftedactor.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that itwould be.
It would feel less jarring ifshe had a different co-star,
right?
Oh yeah, so I think that'sprobably true, because part of
(08:22):
his genius is the subtlety andthe Nonverbal acting that he
does and I don't think she hasany of that.
Yeah, or very little, yeah, yeah, just not the subtle version of
it, like it's like thedifference between someone who's
a stage actor and someone whodoes film.
You know, like there's there'splenty of nonverbal you do in
stage acting but you got Play itto the cheap seats.
(08:45):
So right, right, right, so,yeah, yeah.
So I'd like to talk a littlebit about the story, the murder
mystery in save Lucifer.
I Felt I was, I really felt forthe murderer, even though at
the same time I was like I waslike why, why am I so
(09:06):
sympathetic to this woman whichhe's awful, I mean, she's really
awful.
Now, some of it is, I think,just the the idea of being
overshadowed by older siblingsIs Sorry, overshadowed by a
(09:27):
sibling, like I'm sure you havefelt that way in perverse, um,
and there's when and this, thisyou have not experienced, but
when you are the younger sibling, you are always the younger
(09:49):
sibling, even once you're anadult, like I, I have never been
bat mitzvahd, in part because,well, neither of us are bat
mitzvahd at the normal time, youwere 26.
So, right, when you were batmitzvahd, you decided you want
to do it as an adult and I wouldhave been interested.
But at your reception, everysingle person who has a single
drop of blood in common with ussaid to me so when are you gonna
(10:10):
be bat mitzvahd?
Are you gonna be next?
Never now, thanks, thanks somuch.
So I'm sympathetic, andparticularly God it would be
hard to go into the samebusiness With, I think to the
our writers gave it.
Gave us that too, because I'mthe whole like.
(10:32):
The whole like I hate myselfthing, since self-hatred is the
light motif of this episode andthe one before it.
In the scene where we'resitting it.
We're sitting in the penthouseand the murderer is talking
about having done it and shetalks about.
She's talking about how shefucks everything up, how she she
ruins everything she touchesand it's so bad that she even
(10:52):
was willing to like In herconfession.
It is one of someone who iscompletely judging themselves.
And so I think, that sets us upto be sympathetic because it is
such a Frequent, if notuniversal, experience.
Yeah, and, and then, and thento have Lucifer out on the
(11:14):
balcony like, yeah, you should,yeah, you should, stay far away
from everyone who you care about, and so like, yeah, and so like
, oh gosh, yeah, what'sinteresting is her specific
crime that she was trying tocover up, that that she ended up
killing her sister over, wasembezzling and then losing all
the money.
And In part because of what Ido for a living, you know I
(11:35):
write about money.
I have zero compassion for that, and yeah, and so that's one of
the things that I foundinteresting is, like, even
though I'm just like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No no no, no, and we're back.
So the last thing I heardbefore you disappeared and I
(11:59):
Materialized in a new room wasoh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
So the fact that they were ableto make me sympathize with
someone who Committed actionsthat I find just reprehensible
on every level not that Everyonedoesn't find embezzling and and
making really bad investmentdecisions like reprehensible I'm
(12:23):
not saying that, that's nottrue it's just that, in the same
way that you know a writertakes plagiarism more seriously
you know it's a particular petpeeve of yours.
Yes To to flip, oh, whatever,but yeah, but yeah, I'm thinking
about it.
Yes, but it also I it.
(12:43):
It spoke to her desperation toprove to her sisters and herself
that she wasn't a Screw up.
And so the fact and like, whenyou are feeling that kind of
desperation, you are so muchmore likely to take the really
big bad risks Because, like,okay, I gotta pull this off, and
(13:07):
so you take the the bigger risk, and then you take the even the
bigger risk to try to fix thelast risk and yeah, and just it
keeps getting worse and worseand worse, and so I just am very
sympathetic to that and likethe moment when Lucifer says,
like you should have stayed awayfrom anyone you love, because
you do ruin everything you touch.
I was just like, oh man, I hopethere's a therapist at the
(13:28):
prison.
It's going to be Linda, becauseshe's the only.
Therapist in Los Angeles.
I'm so glad that Dan is gettinghelp and also that's a really
big city.
Yeah, there are millions ofpeople in that city and honestly
(13:54):
, at this point it's a conflictof interest.
I mean, like the number of yeah, no, she no.
I mean I'm not saying she's notgood cause she fixed him in
like less than 10 minutes, Imean less than three minutes
Cause she like, clearly he justneeded to talk to her, boom, and
(14:21):
she's, he's fixed cause he'sthere to take her to the
hospital.
He's fine by the next.
He's fixed.
Yeah, only, only Lucifer is notfixed.
Oh man, yeah.
So, speaking of like, I'd liketo talk about like the, the
things about that they showabout childbirth on TV that
(14:44):
drive me nuts now that I've beenthrough it, although there are
some aspects like where she'slike no, they're just Braxton
Hicks contractions.
And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, Iappreciate that, that's a, you
know.
And then her, her, like he'snot due for a few weeks, you
know, it's just Braxton Hickscontractions.
What I appreciated about the,the Braxton Hicks and all of
that, is so my son was a weekearly.
(15:05):
I had taken the due date as acontract, so when I'm I'm having
Braxton Hicks exactly eightdays before my due date.
I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no,this is too early.
I was in denial the entire day,so that felt realistic to me.
But you know, like my waterjust broke, he got to get me the
(15:29):
hospital.
Now, no, with my second mywater broke at like five in the
morning and he came at 13minutes to midnight.
So you got time.
So those are, those are my, mybird's eye view or expert view,
I guess, of baby stuff.
(15:49):
Then the fact that baby Charlieand this is of course he is is
a three month old infant.
That is not a newborn.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it'sthe same, but it's fine, that's
what they have to do.
Yeah, and then he's sad thatthey got an actual human infant
in the room.
Yeah, and then you know, themajority of the time that Eve is
(16:12):
carrying him, it's it's just abundle of blankets.
I know, I know it's fine, so,but I would love for there to be
at least one shot of an actualnewborn Because, like, otherwise
, you get people who are likewhat's wrong with this baby when
they have a baby, because itdoesn't look like the ones on TV
.
This is like it's not done yetit's all smoochy, smoochy and
(16:34):
gross.
Yeah, does it ever stop beingall like like folded?
Is it like my hair?
When I pull it out of myponytail it's going to have a
little ridge forever.
So you watch, so I actuallylet's.
Let's talk about speaking oflike acting and stuff like that.
(16:55):
When a menadil they give thesuggestion that he may be the
one who have who has abductedCharlie and taken him to the
Silver City and like he actuallywas even thinking about it up
until like that night, which islike that's unforgivable.
(17:16):
Well, and I think thinking isforgivable, ok, thinking is.
So the fact that you didn'ttalk about it with Linda I
thought about running away, yeah, but not with.
And I talked about it withmyself, yes, with, all right.
(17:38):
So the point of he was annoyedwhen she said she'd hired a
night nurse, no, that's where itgets into the like, oh, this is
going to mess up my plans, likethere's thinking about it and
there's planning.
So, anyway, and yeah, I've hadthat.
Like you know, I've gone outfor for an errand and been like
(18:01):
what if I just kept going?
I just keep trying to just go,let's see where I get.
Yeah, late stage.
Capitalism is fun.
Anyway, the fact that drummersand squee nobody likes squee
(18:23):
came up with this plan Like kindof counteracts Lucifer's it
definitely contradicts Lucifer's.
They're not very smart, yeah,especially because they, I mean
like.
So here's a question for you,right, like when the souls of
the dead inhabit recentlydeceased bodies, they don't
remember, they only rememberthat what they, their own lives.
(18:43):
They don't remember the life ofthe person whose body it is.
But maybe demons are more likezombies and can kind of access
some of the memories.
Because how do you even knowabout the vile?
Or to look for it in the safe?
That's a good question, becauseI mean, Kinley knew about the
vile.
I don't know that you wouldknow.
(19:04):
Well.
Kinley, yeah, kinley.
Well, he talked a lot.
He said Dromo studied these.
Spoke a lot and time expands,so 30 seconds is like 30 years,
so yeah maybe, maybe, maybe theygot that from Kinley, maybe.
Yeah, yeah, that vile is not thesize of a plum.
No, there's nothing plum likeabout that vile.
(19:28):
No, no, the other.
The other thing about Dromo'sand Squee like Dromo's like
seemingly immediately like gotrid of the corrections off like
onesie and like put on coolbiker clothes, but Squee just
wore the Montaniers dress.
Maybe that was the easiestthing to find.
(19:50):
I mean like I mean I guess theydid end up using the
confessional as a way to killmore people, so it would help to
have him continue to dress as apriest.
I don't know.
Ok, I mean presumably they alsomust have killed.
Like where are the people whonormally go to that church or
who work there, or who workthere?
How does nobody notice thatlike I'm going to go to
confession, like never come backagain, I know, like it wasn't
(20:14):
like an abandoned church, likethat was a beautiful, well-kept,
active church that has freshwaiters in line.
The other thing about it islike if you go to hell because
you torture yourself, butpresumably the folks who've just
stepped out of confessionbelieve themselves too big
(20:37):
cleansed, like I don't know.
It feels like a little bit ofcommentary on, not the power of
confession, because I feel likethat is.
I'm going to set that aside,I'm just going to put that on
the shelf for now, but even justlike what the actual
parishioner believes about theconfession, because I would
think that stepping out of theconfessional booth for a truly
(21:00):
devout Catholic would be thebest time to die to guarantee
that you go up, if you you knowthe Catholics who actually
believe the whole cosmology andthe way that sin works.
Yeah, yeah, but that's I meanI'm thinking of.
There's an episode of 30 Rockwhere Tracy is like I need to be
(21:25):
, I need to find a religion.
And Liz Lemon says to him likesomething really good, like
Judaism or just like Unitarian,but anyway.
So he's going around to ask meeveryone.
And so it's the episode whereJack Donoghie's brother is there
.
He's like, oh, you should be anIrish Catholic like me, and
(21:47):
what's great is you go to theconfessional and everything's
washed away.
And then so he started like, oh, jack, I'm going to be to Alec
Baldwin, I'm going to be anIrish Catholic.
He's like, oh, but you don'tunderstand the constant guilt,
and he starts pretend, flogginghimself.
And so I'm thinking like thereis that sense of like even when
(22:12):
you are, when the confessionalhas cleansed you of sin and you
have put it elsewhere there, isthat still, that sense of
personal failure at all times.
The way that when Kinleyrealizes who Eve is, he's like,
ah, the first sinner.
(22:32):
That sense of and some of thisjust doesn't make sense to me,
because this is not part of ourreligious tradition, but that we
are all sinners and believingthat deep in your bones.
That I imagine Right and theway to deal with it is through
(22:55):
confession.
Yes, but even when you do that,does anyone ever really feel
like?
I mean, I don't know how tofeel.
I've never been a confession,but it's not understanding that
that is.
I mean.
That's why I like that'ssupposed to be, and the friends
of mine who are Catholic whohave talked about going to
(23:16):
confession, they talk about itbeing like a psychic weight.
You're able to put all of theseworries outside of yourself and
walk out without them, which iskind of In my mind.
In the world of Lucifer thatour showrunners have created,
it's that psychic weight thatdrags you down to hell, anyway,
(23:41):
unless you're a truly horribleperson, right, right, but that's
our head cannon.
That's not necessarily from theshow.
I feel like we've spent kind ofa long time on this and we got
to go, so I want to like Well,I've got, I pushed my next step.
You have a little time.
Yeah, I've got time.
So, okay, cool, and that's areally good point.
(24:07):
If they you know what?
Maybe he hadn't finishedconfessing Because that's all we
see.
Is the guy I mean?
He's even leaving, yeah.
Yeah, anyway, because if theyget them on the way in, that
seems like, yeah, that's ideal.
Actually, that wouldn't make alot of sense.
Actually, yeah, because theythought they'd need to go to
(24:27):
confession.
So if they got them on the wayin, that actually wouldn't make
a lot of sense.
All right, I would like tooverthink the huge number of
bodies at the Mayan so many andthat's like it was like 50 or 60
at least.
Yeah, and like, and they've allbeen murdered, right?
I mean, like there's no reason.
Her gun was discharged like 10times without a sentence.
(24:51):
Oh, yeah, like, why would thatnot come back on Chloe?
Oh, I totally didn't even thinkabout that I assumed it was her
service weapon.
Yeah, and then, and then thespike in her eye.
That was so realistic, oh myGod.
Yeah, yeah, that also speakingof the sheer number, that's
(25:15):
another moment.
That was I'm not even going tosay it was overacted, it just
was weird.
She comes in to tell him thatshe loves him Because she's seen
Charlie.
She knows everything's okaytheoretically, so she knows
everything's okay.
So she comes in and she wants toexplain to him, and then all
the extra demon zombies come upand sort of pull her away and
(25:38):
she's in this freeze frame likeLike for like, and like it's not
a freeze frame.
She's still blinking and like,reaching for him and saying his
name, but like, yeah, you'd befine, yeah, you'd be fine.
(25:58):
Yes, this is the samehardboiled cop that just put 10
bullets into a zombie out in thealley.
She'd be like elbow in and likepunching and kicking, bashing
him in the balls.
Like, yeah, she would not justbe like yeah, yeah, that though
I'm going to tell.
Look, I don't think that wasLarn German's decision, I think
(26:20):
that was the director.
I agree, I think that wasdirectorial.
Yeah, the director's like oh,this is going to make a perfect
like freeze frame, like if you'dlike to keep watching, or
something.
Yeah, yeah, I agree I thinkthat was directorial, but it was
a weird choice.
Yeah, because not only is shefreeze frame, but the zombie
(26:40):
demons who are holding her backare also.
Yeah, they'd be attacking her.
Yeah, Like they're just holdingher while she's reaching for
Like what the Come on y'all?
Yeah, Doesn't mean anything,she's actually moving pictures,
they move.
Edward Mybridge did not recordthat horse-drawer running for
(27:05):
you to do this, Right.
So I do want to talk about realquick, if we can do it without
it being too loud Ella and herreturn to faith.
So again, speaking of someonewho can do comedy and drama,
like that scene where she saysyou know what?
(27:26):
It's not God's job to keep badthings from happening, it's
God's job to help us bear it.
Bear it yeah, which feels likea very post-Showa Jewish kind of
attitude, frankly.
Yeah, yeah, Interesting,because I'm curious as to how
that fits into Christian andCatholic doctrine.
(27:47):
Yeah, I have no idea.
I accidentally read a Christianmystery kind of thing.
That was Like I picked it upnot realizing that's what it was
.
I just found it at the libraryand I was like I read it.
I was like, oh, this is not forme, this was not written for me
.
It's about a young woman whogoes missing and you end up
(28:09):
finding your diary andthroughout she's like I know
everything will be okay becauseof faith in Christ and
everything wasn't.
She ends up murdered but herinfant daughter is saved and
everything's okay there and allof that, and presumably she goes
to heaven.
And I'm just like I don't getit.
I don't get Like what?
(28:31):
Yeah, and I think that's Ella'sproclamation of faith in these
two episodes is much morealigned with my Jewish theology.
Yeah.
And so and I don't really have asense of what the expectation
is for, like the doctrine andbelief system.
So, hey, friends, if you'rewatching, erica, if you're
(28:52):
watching, can you talk to meabout this?
My friend Erica is a priest andso she would know she's not a
Catholic priest but so she wouldbe able to talk to us, that
kind of was, without saying that, well, she figured I'd mention
that, so and that's yeah.
(29:14):
I found that really reallyinteresting that she, like she,
it happens right after shecorrects herself when she's like
to let them know that we'repraying for them and realizing,
like this, like garment thatI've always worn, I'm trying to
get back into, you know, likeit's comfortable, yeah, I mean,
(29:34):
well, it is a relationship andshe says she misses God.
So I think that's yeah, Iactually think that that's that
resonated.
That means that's to me yeah,that was a relationship that she
was.
Yeah, but I also am like I gotannoyed a little bit at the idea
that she's that God can'thandle her anger.
(29:55):
So, although she wasn't talkingabout she, was saying like I
was so angry at the big guy andfor letting this happen and that
I miss him.
So, like, okay, so, thinking ofit as a relationship, she
distanced herself because shewas angry, which I'm like okay,
that's all makes sense.
But then, like the way that shetalked about her anger at God,
(30:17):
I felt like, well, god can takeit.
I wasn't left with a feelingthat God couldn't take it, I was
left with it.
She had cut off communicationbecause of her anger, as opposed
to God can't handle it, and Godleft.
She was like done with you,that's true, that's true.
And she put her necklace in thedrawer.
Yeah, so Okay, fair, fair.
(30:39):
So I mean, oh, brain fart, ohself actualization, oh, yes, and
he's really like I'm not sure Ieven realized at the first,
however many times I've watchedthese two episodes he's got big
ass monster that style wings inthese two episodes.
(31:02):
But then when, once he hasdecided he has to go back to
hell to protect the people thathe loves, he has angel wings
again, angel wings again.
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't makethe connection of the shift
until this go round watching itto prepare for today with you,
but I thought that was reallyreally nice.
Yeah, yeah.
(31:23):
That scene.
Well, okay, that last scenebetween him and Chloe on the
balcony.
As you said, it's not quite assatisfying as it could be with a
different actress, I think.
But his acting is amazing.
Like how lost he looks like ashe's on the balcony knowing he's
about to say goodbye to herforever.
(31:43):
How do you like stand therewith tears like welling but not
falling?
Not falling, yeah, I do that, Idon't know, like on command,
yeah, wow.
And then I and partially becausethere was a long time between
season four and when season fivecame out but that image of him
(32:06):
on top of that lonely throne,even though it makes no
logistical sense, I mean likeobviously he can fly up to it,
but like what's the point?
But still, imagery wise, it isphenomenal, it's gorgeous.
And the same way that he fixeshis cuff lengths like he always
(32:26):
did, and that like that's a likeso much is said in that little
gesture that he has done so manytimes.
And yeah, it's haunting and Idon't, I don't anyway, like I
know there are people who arelike you know, season six
terrible, blah, blah, they hatedit.
(32:46):
There are in another universewhere there wasn't a renewal
after season four.
I feel like that could havebeen a very, very satisfying
ending, even though it is not inany way emotionally satisfied.
It's not like, yeah, it's notemotionally satisfying.
Yeah but in a way it is too,though, because that's something
that I don't like about a lotof fantasy is you'll get
(33:11):
pairings between always mortalwoman and an immortal man, and
then and they act like there's,there's a way to have a happily
ever after with them, and theonly so like there's some things
that I've seen they make thewoman immortal.
So, like Twilight, they makeher a vampire, which I'm like
that is not a happy ending.
You've made her a monster too.
(33:32):
Then there was one that I readwhere they made the vampire
mortal, like he was able to goback to being human, like yeah,
but he's been around 500 years.
Like how do you, how can you beequals, you know, at that point
, and so, like, just the.
I appreciate stories that acceptthe fact that this is, this
(33:57):
can't work, which I feel likethe story ends up doing and is
one of the reasons why peoplehate the ending.
Right, but you know it's humanbeings are a snapshot in time,
so I like.
For me, even though it isheartbreaking, I found that
(34:18):
ending emotionally satisfying,in that they got their moment,
their closure, and there was noway that they could be together,
because he is eternal and sheis not, and there's no possible
way that can meet.
So I'm glad that we that wasn'tthe end of it, although there
(34:40):
are in season five.
There are some continuityissues that annoy me,
specifically like We'll getthere, we'll get there, we'll
get there, we'll get there,we'll get there, we'll get there
, we'll get there.
Don't get ahead of us.
So, yeah, I don't want to getahead of us, so I read a fan
fiction novel that was set likeafter season four.
That was totally not safe forwork, work for work, like so not
safe for work.
Okay, you're going to have tosend that to me please.
(35:02):
Really really interesting.
Really interesting, like whathappens and some of the some
assumptions that she sort ofpulled out that this particular
fan writer and it's a novel likeit is long, alrighty, but the
(35:24):
not safe for work parts, really,really, yeah, it kept it going.
It kept my interest.
It's coming along.
I'm in a long oh my yeah.
So okay, want to talk about Eveand Maze, right?
(35:44):
So apparently everyone who seesthem sees what's happening,
except for Eve, right, like,while Lucifer is in that big
mass, he says I'll be damned,which is an interesting line to
put in the devil's mouth.
Now that I think about it, yeah, and you know, and Dan sees it
and you know it's just-.
(36:05):
What's interesting, though, isthat everyone who sees it, what
they see is Maze.
So Lucifer knows Maze betterthan anybody.
Dan knows Maze I meanreasonably well.
He's known her for four yearsnow and has, and the way he's at
, like I've never seen you lookat her, look at anyone like the
way you look at her you don'twant to stab her.
(36:25):
So, whereas Eve is a relativelyyou know, relatively new in
Maze's life, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
I think there's something reallyinteresting about sort of the
head demon, like whatever.
Whatever, she clearly has aspecial role.
She's not like all the othersMm-hmm, falling in love with the
(36:51):
first, second woman, I don'tknow.
There's something reallyinteresting about that.
You know that it is interestingand it also just so when Father
Kinley says like, ah, the firstsinner to her, there's, there's
something in there too and that, like the head demon, that
(37:12):
falling for the first sinneralthough I would, I mean
obviously there's a reason whyhe says that.
I mean like that's, that's youroriginal sin.
Oh, he even says you're theoriginal sinner.
So, even though I would say,like Kane is the first sinner,
really, well, it depends on yourdefinition of sin.
(37:34):
Yeah, this is.
This is based on me going like,yeah, having having some fruit,
right Even if you're told notto.
It was explicitly forbidden.
Yeah, so says the woman who wasstolen candy from her kids,
sweet buckets, so you know,having a little fruit that
(37:56):
you're told not to have, and thewhole scheme of things Right,
right, but yeah, I do want tolike.
Can we just have a momentaryappreciation post for Graham
McTavish, who plays FatherKinley, and then drama.
Great job, I totally believedhe was a different person, I
know, and I was wondering like,so I'm thinking like he must
(38:16):
actually be Irish, I'm assuming,because Graham McTavish, or
Scottish, scottish, I think,scottish, so from the UK, but
not Britain, because I thinkthat's just based on his name.
I think that's his actualaccents and I never questioned
(38:38):
the American accent Like thefirst time I watched it through,
like it was so, like I wasn'teven thinking about the fact
that it was except when Dron,most of us, I mean he sound like
a pirate, but he's chilling inevery version of it and then,
like the other thing that Ithought was really interesting
(38:58):
was McTavish, or where FatherKinley is like reassuring but a
little creepy before you knowwho he is.
There's, there's something,there's something very intense
about him, but there's like whenhe says, my child, you know,
like we knew this would bedifficult.
There's something reassuringabout it, like you can see why
(39:20):
he'd be a good priest.
The minute he's wearing likethe prison khakis and he's going
oh, my child, you're like, oh,whoa, no, no, no, no, no, you're
not calling me my child.
Nothing and I'm like and I knowsome of it is is really just
clothing.
Like you know, you put on a dogcollar, you get an air.
It's the same way that like thewhite coat effect, but at the
(39:43):
same time it's also likepartially just the way that
McTavish plays it and partiallythe fact that we now know who he
is and what he's willing to do.
And I loved Maze's comment.
She's like I tortured guys likehim before.
He will never change his mind.
He's a fanatic.
Then for him to be similarlybut differently creepy as Dromos
(40:09):
, like when he's like who's thenew king of hell?
To the baby, like there'ssomething like it's solicitous
and sweet and kind of a vuncularbut at the same time like oh my
God, poor child.
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
He also got to deliver thatgreat like well, he and in
(40:32):
Barlavi, what makes you think oflike that?
Oh yeah, call it a hunch, callit a hunch.
Yeah, yeah, that was a nicecomedic, gruesome but comedic
moment.
Well, it's kind of like it'sdark comedy, definitely.
Yeah, in Barlavi had a couple ofreally like good, so when she
(40:53):
she's talking to Lucifer at theparty and I don't remember what
it is he said but gave her thesense that like oh, okay, things
are going to be okay now she'slike so when should I move my
stuff back in?
And it's just like yeah, oh,cringe, ouch, but she did it so
well.
And then the same thing whenshe's like kind of summoned a
demon from hell and seemed likea good idea at the time yeah,
(41:17):
you know, speaking of two, likewhy didn't Dromos just kill her?
He knocks her out, he says Idon't need you anymore.
Why do you just kill her?
I'm wondering if there's, ifthere's like some aspect of the
fact that she's, like celestialadjacent, divinely created.
Yeah, she was divinely createdby the hand of God, and that's
gonna be yeah, that's my headcannon now.
(41:39):
Okay.
Yeah, that's why he didn't.
Yeah, that's my head cannon now, cool, cool.
So, all right, I think I'mgoing to move us on to fluffier
topics.
Fluff to fluff, fluff.
I know they needed it for thepurposes of the storytelling,
but that scarf the first andonly time Chloe ever wears a
(42:00):
scarf and it is awful, it'sterrible, it's what she's done
on her.
I mean, like the first, like Iwant.
I'm like, do you have a hickey?
Like what are you doing?
That's not, that's not a brandfor you love Mm.
Hmm, all right.
So I've got two fluff.
One Dan beatboxing, pinnacle ofhuman achievement there.
(42:23):
Like all, human art has beenmoving towards that moment when
Kevin Elhan you're beatboxing,kevin Elhan, you're beatboxes.
It's just I, just I.
Everything was worth it to getthere.
So that's one.
(42:44):
The other is the hot pockets onthe silver platter From the
producer.
Yeah, like what?
Hot pocket, hot pocket?
Oh man, I don't like who doesthat.
(43:09):
So, so those are my two, twopieces of fluff.
Yeah, I think that's oh.
One other is it's the theincredible Hulk problem.
He burst out of his shirt buthis pants fit just fine.
So apparently some things don'tget bigger.
(43:32):
Maybe it was the wings.
Well he's.
You can also like see, he's gotyou know.
Yeah, they put big chest pieceon my shoulder Like he was yeah.
Yeah, he'd been bulking up whenhe was red.
(43:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he neededsome like salve or something.
That's the worst piece of riceI've ever seen.
It wasn't just red, though, itwas like shaggy.
Yeah, I mean, I think it'ssupposed to be like burn scars
or something.
Is that what you think?
Is that what it is?
(44:14):
No, maybe that's always what Iassumed his face was supposed to
be.
I'm gonna go watch that sceneagain For science, no for art.
So one of one of like the.
The scene that I have watchedover and over again, in part
just just for the.
(44:35):
The thirst trap is when heturns back into himself.
But I'd like to and the thelike and he's just looking fine,
like I just need to see thebelly button, please.
Yeah, I actually have watchedthat also, but I have to like
fast forward through Germanlines because she makes me so
(44:58):
unhappy.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, germs, I'm sureyou're a wonderful person and
I'm totally, yeah.
Yeah, I think we have overthunk it Totally.
We have definitely over thunkit and I'm supposed to be on a
call with someone else in fiveminutes, so I'll be better go
(45:21):
See you next week.
See you next week.
Tracy here.
This is embarrassing.
In this episode that you'reabout to listen to, I go off on
a tangent about Eve's name and Igot it wrong.
Eve's name, the biblical Eve,was Chava, and it says in the
(00:20):
text she's called that becauseshe's the mother of all living,
which would be Chaya, and thetwo words must be related.
But it wasn't Chaya, so myapologies for leading you astray
.
However, my story about themisplaced vowel on the pronoun
(00:42):
remains.
Is it why she's called Eve inEnglish?
Maybe it's my headcanon as towhy.
Anyway, I hope you'll forgiveme.
Enjoy this episode.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer.
For the plot yeah, the plotwhich they overthink.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Hey there, I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken
.
She does not use Iphone, Idon't and I'm here with my
sister, tracy Guy-Dekker shedoes use Iphone, it's true.
And together we areLightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And, yeah, we're overthinkingit.
(01:35):
So today we're gonna beoverthinking episodes 409 and
410.
Save Lucifer and who's the newking of hell.
I know it's like so many things.
So the place I want to startwhich maybe is not the best
starting place, I'm gonna startthere anyway is near the end of
that episode, when Lucifer isjust fully transforming into his
(02:00):
most devil-y, monstrous devilself in the penthouse and he's
like basically having a meltdownand what brings him back is
that Chloe is like I'm stillhere, I'm not in a million
pieces and you need to forgiveyourself and like I have to say
that scene, that one scene inthe penthouse, is the reason I
(02:26):
don't like the one that'sChloe's after.
It is that scene specifically.
I think the writing is good, butnot great, at least her
dialogue.
But her delivery I just didn'tbuy it, like the way she keeps,
(02:50):
like it's not even that I thinkshe wouldn't be looking away
because it's hard to look at.
But she keeps looking up, like,are you looking to God for help
?
Are you like, frustrated andexasperated, like that's what I
do, like when my kids, when mykid won't put her shoes on and
it's time to leave, I'm like, oh, look up Right.
(03:12):
Like I just like none of it.
I bought none of it.
None of it.
I bought none of it.
And, like I said, the writingis I think it's good, but not
great.
Like the line that she has todeliver.
Like you're always so mad thatpeople blame you for stuff.
The devil made me do it and allthat.
Like I don't think that waswell written.
(03:34):
Like I think they could havepolished that better because it
didn't.
Well, the sentiment is good,it's just the sentiment.
The sentiment is good, theactual words though felt more
like written than spoken words.
Yeah, like the way she says thedevil made me do it.
Like it looks like written Ithink I would buy that, but like
spoken, it just didn't work.
(03:54):
And then she just didn'tdeliver it in a way that I
believed.
Like that specific scene iswhen, like I watched the first
time I watched this, I was like,oh, she's blowing it, she's
just perfect moment betweenthese two people.
I love it.
Oh my.
(04:15):
Oh, that makes me laugh.
Sorry, that was not the rightplace to start, but that is my
primary reaction to save Lizard,honestly.
Well, it puts into sharpcontrast how tough it is for
(04:35):
German, I think, to do whatother actors do really well,
which is like that seamlessblend of comedy and drama.
So I'm thinking like May's inthese two episodes, like she
does a lot with like her faceand comedic timing, like when
Eve is like what do you think Isthis more sexy, or is this more
(04:56):
sexy?
And you can tell she's goinglike oh damn, I'm gonna die, my
mouth is dry, I cannot talk, andit's like it's very funny.
But at the same time we alsosee her like lose her temper at
Eve.
We see her be totallyvulnerable with the song and so
like she's got that fullspectrum, whereas I feel like
(05:17):
Lauren German can handle likeaspects of the comedy really
really well.
But that dramatic scene whereit needs to come from, like this
deep place, we don't really see.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, cause even inthe second one, in Huda Nuken,
hell, that scene on the balconythat should just like tug at my
heart, strings, like please, Ijust thought you know what if
(05:45):
she didn't, if they, if they'dhad her, say like I love you,
and he has that like heartbrokensmile like for, like, oh my God
, how does he do that with hisface?
And like, why do I want to lickhim Like that?
Anyway, if she didn't repeatherself, if she didn't look,
(06:07):
please, I love you the secondtime, I think I would.
I would be more like if she'djust let it sit, but Anyway,
yeah, so I'm sure she's a verynice woman.
Learn German I don't want to,and you know, nobody does
hard-boiled better than she doesthat like tough as nails.
Like Hell will freeze overbefore I sleep with you.
(06:29):
Like yeah.
I bought that way back inseason one.
I mean, I think, for whateverreason, this particular
emotional range just Doesn't,she isn't, she isn't conveying
it.
So it reminds me of Mark Hamillin the original Star Wars
trilogy, because when he washired to play Luke Skywalker For
the 1977 Star Wars, he was ayoung man playing a young man
(06:53):
and they're like he you boughtit, you bought that he was the
farm boy and then by the timeyou get to return of the Jedi,
he's supposed to be like this,more seasoned, you know Mm-hmm,
and it's harder, like you justdon't really see it from our
camel.
And the thing is he's aphenomenal actor, like he's
really good His voice acting asthe Joker for the Batman
(07:17):
animated series is it's supposedto be like Up there with Heath
Ledger is one of the best jokersever done.
So I have no doubt that he'scapable.
It's just that I thinksometimes the role grows in a
way that the actor isn't Mm-hmm,and I think that's that's what
happened with Chloe and LaurenGerman and I think German
(07:37):
actually grows into it a littlebit in season six.
There's a lot of that similaremotional range in season six
that I think she she gets there,at least gets closer.
For me, you know for me as aviewer, but at this moment, like
I had a hard time even stayingin Mm-hmm, like staying in the
world building of the LA ofLucifer, because I was so kind
(08:00):
of like distracted by her.
Well, and it doesn't help thatshe's she's up against Tom Ellis
, who is the phenomenally giftedactor.
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that itwould be.
It would feel less jarring ifshe had a different co-star,
right?
Oh yeah, so I think that'sprobably true, because part of
(08:22):
his genius is the subtlety andthe Nonverbal acting that he
does and I don't think she hasany of that.
Yeah, or very little, yeah, yeah, just not the subtle version of
it, like it's like thedifference between someone who's
a stage actor and someone whodoes film.
You know, like there's there'splenty of nonverbal you do in
stage acting but you got Play itto the cheap seats.
(08:45):
So right, right, right, so,yeah, yeah.
So I'd like to talk a littlebit about the story, the murder
mystery in save Lucifer.
I Felt I was, I really felt forthe murderer, even though at
the same time I was like I waslike why, why am I so
(09:06):
sympathetic to this woman whichhe's awful, I mean, she's really
awful.
Now, some of it is, I think,just the the idea of being
overshadowed by older siblingsIs Sorry, overshadowed by a
(09:27):
sibling, like I'm sure you havefelt that way in perverse, um,
and there's when and this, thisyou have not experienced, but
when you are the younger sibling, you are always the younger
(09:49):
sibling, even once you're anadult, like I, I have never been
bat mitzvahd, in part because,well, neither of us are bat
mitzvahd at the normal time, youwere 26.
So, right, when you were batmitzvahd, you decided you want
to do it as an adult and I wouldhave been interested.
But at your reception, everysingle person who has a single
drop of blood in common with ussaid to me so when are you gonna
(10:10):
be bat mitzvahd?
Are you gonna be next?
Never now, thanks, thanks somuch.
So I'm sympathetic, andparticularly God it would be
hard to go into the samebusiness With, I think to the
our writers gave it.
Gave us that too, because I'mthe whole like.
(10:32):
The whole like I hate myselfthing, since self-hatred is the
light motif of this episode andthe one before it.
In the scene where we'resitting it.
We're sitting in the penthouseand the murderer is talking
about having done it and shetalks about.
She's talking about how shefucks everything up, how she she
ruins everything she touchesand it's so bad that she even
(10:52):
was willing to like In herconfession.
It is one of someone who iscompletely judging themselves.
And so I think, that sets us upto be sympathetic because it is
such a Frequent, if notuniversal, experience.
Yeah, and, and then, and thento have Lucifer out on the
(11:14):
balcony like, yeah, you should,yeah, you should, stay far away
from everyone who you care about, and so like, yeah, and so like
, oh gosh, yeah, what'sinteresting is her specific
crime that she was trying tocover up, that that she ended up
killing her sister over, wasembezzling and then losing all
the money.
And In part because of what Ido for a living, you know I
(11:35):
write about money.
I have zero compassion for that, and yeah, and so that's one of
the things that I foundinteresting is, like, even
though I'm just like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
No no no, no, and we're back.
So the last thing I heardbefore you disappeared and I
(11:59):
Materialized in a new room wasoh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
So the fact that they were ableto make me sympathize with
someone who Committed actionsthat I find just reprehensible
on every level not that Everyonedoesn't find embezzling and and
making really bad investmentdecisions like reprehensible I'm
(12:23):
not saying that, that's nottrue it's just that, in the same
way that you know a writertakes plagiarism more seriously
you know it's a particular petpeeve of yours.
Yes To to flip, oh, whatever,but yeah, but yeah, I'm thinking
about it.
Yes, but it also I it.
(12:43):
It spoke to her desperation toprove to her sisters and herself
that she wasn't a Screw up.
And so the fact and like, whenyou are feeling that kind of
desperation, you are so muchmore likely to take the really
big bad risks Because, like,okay, I gotta pull this off, and
(13:07):
so you take the the bigger risk, and then you take the even the
bigger risk to try to fix thelast risk and yeah, and just it
keeps getting worse and worseand worse, and so I just am very
sympathetic to that and likethe moment when Lucifer says,
like you should have stayed awayfrom anyone you love, because
you do ruin everything you touch.
I was just like, oh man, I hopethere's a therapist at the
(13:28):
prison.
It's going to be Linda, becauseshe's the only.
Therapist in Los Angeles.
I'm so glad that Dan is gettinghelp and also that's a really
big city.
Yeah, there are millions ofpeople in that city and honestly
(13:54):
, at this point it's a conflictof interest.
I mean, like the number of yeah, no, she no.
I mean I'm not saying she's notgood cause she fixed him in
like less than 10 minutes, Imean less than three minutes
Cause she like, clearly he justneeded to talk to her, boom, and
(14:21):
she's, he's fixed cause he'sthere to take her to the
hospital.
He's fine by the next.
He's fixed.
Yeah, only, only Lucifer is notfixed.
Oh man, yeah.
So, speaking of like, I'd liketo talk about like the, the
things about that they showabout childbirth on TV that
(14:44):
drive me nuts now that I've beenthrough it, although there are
some aspects like where she'slike no, they're just Braxton
Hicks contractions.
And I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, Iappreciate that, that's a, you
know.
And then her, her, like he'snot due for a few weeks, you
know, it's just Braxton Hickscontractions.
What I appreciated about the,the Braxton Hicks and all of
that, is so my son was a weekearly.
(15:05):
I had taken the due date as acontract, so when I'm I'm having
Braxton Hicks exactly eightdays before my due date.
I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no,this is too early.
I was in denial the entire day,so that felt realistic to me.
But you know, like my waterjust broke, he got to get me the
(15:29):
hospital.
Now, no, with my second mywater broke at like five in the
morning and he came at 13minutes to midnight.
So you got time.
So those are, those are my, mybird's eye view or expert view,
I guess, of baby stuff.
(15:49):
Then the fact that baby Charlieand this is of course he is is
a three month old infant.
That is not a newborn.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it'sthe same, but it's fine, that's
what they have to do.
Yeah, and then he's sad thatthey got an actual human infant
in the room.
Yeah, and then you know, themajority of the time that Eve is
(16:12):
carrying him, it's it's just abundle of blankets.
I know, I know it's fine, so,but I would love for there to be
at least one shot of an actualnewborn Because, like, otherwise
, you get people who are likewhat's wrong with this baby when
they have a baby, because itdoesn't look like the ones on TV
.
This is like it's not done yetit's all smoochy, smoochy and
(16:34):
gross.
Yeah, does it ever stop beingall like like folded?
Is it like my hair?
When I pull it out of myponytail it's going to have a
little ridge forever.
So you watch, so I actuallylet's.
Let's talk about speaking oflike acting and stuff like that.
(16:55):
When a menadil they give thesuggestion that he may be the
one who have who has abductedCharlie and taken him to the
Silver City and like he actuallywas even thinking about it up
until like that night, which islike that's unforgivable.
(17:16):
Well, and I think thinking isforgivable, ok, thinking is.
So the fact that you didn'ttalk about it with Linda I
thought about running away, yeah, but not with.
And I talked about it withmyself, yes, with, all right.
(17:38):
So the point of he was annoyedwhen she said she'd hired a
night nurse, no, that's where itgets into the like, oh, this is
going to mess up my plans, likethere's thinking about it and
there's planning.
So, anyway, and yeah, I've hadthat.
Like you know, I've gone outfor for an errand and been like
(18:01):
what if I just kept going?
I just keep trying to just go,let's see where I get.
Yeah, late stage.
Capitalism is fun.
Anyway, the fact that drummersand squee nobody likes squee
(18:23):
came up with this plan Like kindof counteracts Lucifer's it
definitely contradicts Lucifer's.
They're not very smart, yeah,especially because they, I mean
like.
So here's a question for you,right, like when the souls of
the dead inhabit recentlydeceased bodies, they don't
remember, they only rememberthat what they, their own lives.
(18:43):
They don't remember the life ofthe person whose body it is.
But maybe demons are more likezombies and can kind of access
some of the memories.
Because how do you even knowabout the vile?
Or to look for it in the safe?
That's a good question, becauseI mean, Kinley knew about the
vile.
I don't know that you wouldknow.
(19:04):
Well.
Kinley, yeah, kinley.
Well, he talked a lot.
He said Dromo studied these.
Spoke a lot and time expands,so 30 seconds is like 30 years,
so yeah maybe, maybe, maybe theygot that from Kinley, maybe.
Yeah, yeah, that vile is not thesize of a plum.
No, there's nothing plum likeabout that vile.
(19:28):
No, no, the other.
The other thing about Dromo'sand Squee like Dromo's like
seemingly immediately like gotrid of the corrections off like
onesie and like put on coolbiker clothes, but Squee just
wore the Montaniers dress.
Maybe that was the easiestthing to find.
(19:50):
I mean like I mean I guess theydid end up using the
confessional as a way to killmore people, so it would help to
have him continue to dress as apriest.
I don't know.
Ok, I mean presumably they alsomust have killed.
Like where are the people whonormally go to that church or
who work there, or who workthere?
How does nobody notice thatlike I'm going to go to
confession, like never come backagain, I know, like it wasn't
(20:14):
like an abandoned church, likethat was a beautiful, well-kept,
active church that has freshwaiters in line.
The other thing about it islike if you go to hell because
you torture yourself, butpresumably the folks who've just
stepped out of confessionbelieve themselves too big
(20:37):
cleansed, like I don't know.
It feels like a little bit ofcommentary on, not the power of
confession, because I feel likethat is.
I'm going to set that aside,I'm just going to put that on
the shelf for now, but even justlike what the actual
parishioner believes about theconfession, because I would
think that stepping out of theconfessional booth for a truly
(21:00):
devout Catholic would be thebest time to die to guarantee
that you go up, if you you knowthe Catholics who actually
believe the whole cosmology andthe way that sin works.
Yeah, yeah, but that's I meanI'm thinking of.
There's an episode of 30 Rockwhere Tracy is like I need to be
(21:25):
, I need to find a religion.
And Liz Lemon says to him likesomething really good, like
Judaism or just like Unitarian,but anyway.
So he's going around to ask meeveryone.
And so it's the episode whereJack Donoghie's brother is there
.
He's like, oh, you should be anIrish Catholic like me, and
(21:47):
what's great is you go to theconfessional and everything's
washed away.
And then so he started like, oh, jack, I'm going to be to Alec
Baldwin, I'm going to be anIrish Catholic.
He's like, oh, but you don'tunderstand the constant guilt,
and he starts pretend, flogginghimself.
And so I'm thinking like thereis that sense of like even when
(22:12):
you are, when the confessionalhas cleansed you of sin and you
have put it elsewhere there, isthat still, that sense of
personal failure at all times.
The way that when Kinleyrealizes who Eve is, he's like,
ah, the first sinner.
(22:32):
That sense of and some of thisjust doesn't make sense to me,
because this is not part of ourreligious tradition, but that we
are all sinners and believingthat deep in your bones.
That I imagine Right and theway to deal with it is through
(22:55):
confession.
Yes, but even when you do that,does anyone ever really feel
like?
I mean, I don't know how tofeel.
I've never been a confession,but it's not understanding that
that is.
I mean.
That's why I like that'ssupposed to be, and the friends
of mine who are Catholic whohave talked about going to
(23:16):
confession, they talk about itbeing like a psychic weight.
You're able to put all of theseworries outside of yourself and
walk out without them, which iskind of In my mind.
In the world of Lucifer thatour showrunners have created,
it's that psychic weight thatdrags you down to hell, anyway,
(23:41):
unless you're a truly horribleperson, right, right, but that's
our head cannon.
That's not necessarily from theshow.
I feel like we've spent kind ofa long time on this and we got
to go, so I want to like Well,I've got, I pushed my next step.
You have a little time.
Yeah, I've got time.
So, okay, cool, and that's areally good point.
(24:07):
If they you know what?
Maybe he hadn't finishedconfessing Because that's all we
see.
Is the guy I mean?
He's even leaving, yeah.
Yeah, anyway, because if theyget them on the way in, that
seems like, yeah, that's ideal.
Actually, that wouldn't make alot of sense.
Actually, yeah, because theythought they'd need to go to
(24:27):
confession.
So if they got them on the wayin, that actually wouldn't make
a lot of sense.
All right, I would like tooverthink the huge number of
bodies at the Mayan so many andthat's like it was like 50 or 60
at least.
Yeah, and like, and they've allbeen murdered, right?
I mean, like there's no reason.
Her gun was discharged like 10times without a sentence.
(24:51):
Oh, yeah, like, why would thatnot come back on Chloe?
Oh, I totally didn't even thinkabout that I assumed it was her
service weapon.
Yeah, and then, and then thespike in her eye.
That was so realistic, oh myGod.
Yeah, yeah, that also speakingof the sheer number, that's
(25:15):
another moment.
That was I'm not even going tosay it was overacted, it just
was weird.
She comes in to tell him thatshe loves him Because she's seen
Charlie.
She knows everything's okaytheoretically, so she knows
everything's okay.
So she comes in and she wants toexplain to him, and then all
the extra demon zombies come upand sort of pull her away and
(25:38):
she's in this freeze frame likeLike for like, and like it's not
a freeze frame.
She's still blinking and like,reaching for him and saying his
name, but like, yeah, you'd befine, yeah, you'd be fine.
(25:58):
Yes, this is the samehardboiled cop that just put 10
bullets into a zombie out in thealley.
She'd be like elbow in and likepunching and kicking, bashing
him in the balls.
Like, yeah, she would not justbe like yeah, yeah, that though
I'm going to tell.
Look, I don't think that wasLarn German's decision, I think
(26:20):
that was the director.
I agree, I think that wasdirectorial.
Yeah, the director's like oh,this is going to make a perfect
like freeze frame, like if you'dlike to keep watching, or
something.
Yeah, yeah, I agree I thinkthat was directorial, but it was
a weird choice.
Yeah, because not only is shefreeze frame, but the zombie
(26:40):
demons who are holding her backare also.
Yeah, they'd be attacking her.
Yeah, Like they're just holdingher while she's reaching for
Like what the Come on y'all?
Yeah, Doesn't mean anything,she's actually moving pictures,
they move.
Edward Mybridge did not recordthat horse-drawer running for
(27:05):
you to do this, Right.
So I do want to talk about realquick, if we can do it without
it being too loud Ella and herreturn to faith.
So again, speaking of someonewho can do comedy and drama,
like that scene where she saysyou know what?
(27:26):
It's not God's job to keep badthings from happening, it's
God's job to help us bear it.
Bear it yeah, which feels likea very post-Showa Jewish kind of
attitude, frankly.
Yeah, yeah, Interesting,because I'm curious as to how
that fits into Christian andCatholic doctrine.
(27:47):
Yeah, I have no idea.
I accidentally read a Christianmystery kind of thing.
That was Like I picked it upnot realizing that's what it was
.
I just found it at the libraryand I was like I read it.
I was like, oh, this is not forme, this was not written for me
.
It's about a young woman whogoes missing and you end up
(28:09):
finding your diary andthroughout she's like I know
everything will be okay becauseof faith in Christ and
everything wasn't.
She ends up murdered but herinfant daughter is saved and
everything's okay there and allof that, and presumably she goes
to heaven.
And I'm just like I don't getit.
I don't get Like what?
(28:31):
Yeah, and I think that's Ella'sproclamation of faith in these
two episodes is much morealigned with my Jewish theology.
Yeah.
And so and I don't really have asense of what the expectation
is for, like the doctrine andbelief system.
So, hey, friends, if you'rewatching, erica, if you're
(28:52):
watching, can you talk to meabout this?
My friend Erica is a priest andso she would know she's not a
Catholic priest but so she wouldbe able to talk to us, that
kind of was, without saying that, well, she figured I'd mention
that, so and that's yeah.
(29:14):
I found that really reallyinteresting that she, like she,
it happens right after shecorrects herself when she's like
to let them know that we'repraying for them and realizing,
like this, like garment thatI've always worn, I'm trying to
get back into, you know, likeit's comfortable, yeah, I mean,
(29:34):
well, it is a relationship andshe says she misses God.
So I think that's yeah, Iactually think that that's that
resonated.
That means that's to me yeah,that was a relationship that she
was.
Yeah, but I also am like I gotannoyed a little bit at the idea
that she's that God can'thandle her anger.
(29:55):
So, although she wasn't talkingabout she, was saying like I
was so angry at the big guy andfor letting this happen and that
I miss him.
So, like, okay, so, thinking ofit as a relationship, she
distanced herself because shewas angry, which I'm like okay,
that's all makes sense.
But then, like the way that shetalked about her anger at God,
(30:17):
I felt like, well, god can takeit.
I wasn't left with a feelingthat God couldn't take it, I was
left with it.
She had cut off communicationbecause of her anger, as opposed
to God can't handle it, and Godleft.
She was like done with you,that's true, that's true.
And she put her necklace in thedrawer.
Yeah, so Okay, fair, fair.
(30:39):
So I mean, oh, brain fart, ohself actualization, oh, yes, and
he's really like I'm not sure Ieven realized at the first,
however many times I've watchedthese two episodes he's got big
ass monster that style wings inthese two episodes.
(31:02):
But then when, once he hasdecided he has to go back to
hell to protect the people thathe loves, he has angel wings
again, angel wings again.
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't makethe connection of the shift
until this go round watching itto prepare for today with you,
but I thought that was reallyreally nice.
Yeah, yeah.
(31:23):
That scene.
Well, okay, that last scenebetween him and Chloe on the
balcony.
As you said, it's not quite assatisfying as it could be with a
different actress, I think.
But his acting is amazing.
Like how lost he looks like ashe's on the balcony knowing he's
about to say goodbye to herforever.
(31:43):
How do you like stand therewith tears like welling but not
falling?
Not falling, yeah, I do that, Idon't know, like on command,
yeah, wow.
And then I and partially becausethere was a long time between
season four and when season fivecame out but that image of him
(32:06):
on top of that lonely throne,even though it makes no
logistical sense, I mean likeobviously he can fly up to it,
but like what's the point?
But still, imagery wise, it isphenomenal, it's gorgeous.
And the same way that he fixeshis cuff lengths like he always
(32:26):
did, and that like that's a likeso much is said in that little
gesture that he has done so manytimes.
And yeah, it's haunting and Idon't, I don't anyway, like I
know there are people who arelike you know, season six
terrible, blah, blah, they hatedit.
(32:46):
There are in another universewhere there wasn't a renewal
after season four.
I feel like that could havebeen a very, very satisfying
ending, even though it is not inany way emotionally satisfied.
It's not like, yeah, it's notemotionally satisfying.
Yeah but in a way it is too,though, because that's something
that I don't like about a lotof fantasy is you'll get
(33:11):
pairings between always mortalwoman and an immortal man, and
then and they act like there's,there's a way to have a happily
ever after with them, and theonly so like there's some things
that I've seen they make thewoman immortal.
So, like Twilight, they makeher a vampire, which I'm like
that is not a happy ending.
You've made her a monster too.
(33:32):
Then there was one that I readwhere they made the vampire
mortal, like he was able to goback to being human, like yeah,
but he's been around 500 years.
Like how do you, how can you beequals, you know, at that point
, and so, like, just the.
I appreciate stories that acceptthe fact that this is, this
(33:57):
can't work, which I feel likethe story ends up doing and is
one of the reasons why peoplehate the ending.
Right, but you know it's humanbeings are a snapshot in time,
so I like.
For me, even though it isheartbreaking, I found that
(34:18):
ending emotionally satisfying,in that they got their moment,
their closure, and there was noway that they could be together,
because he is eternal and sheis not, and there's no possible
way that can meet.
So I'm glad that we that wasn'tthe end of it, although there
(34:40):
are in season five.
There are some continuityissues that annoy me,
specifically like We'll getthere, we'll get there, we'll
get there, we'll get there,we'll get there, we'll get there
, we'll get there.
Don't get ahead of us.
So, yeah, I don't want to getahead of us, so I read a fan
fiction novel that was set likeafter season four.
That was totally not safe forwork, work for work, like so not
safe for work.
Okay, you're going to have tosend that to me please.
(35:02):
Really really interesting.
Really interesting, like whathappens and some of the some
assumptions that she sort ofpulled out that this particular
fan writer and it's a novel likeit is long, alrighty, but the
(35:24):
not safe for work parts, really,really, yeah, it kept it going.
It kept my interest.
It's coming along.
I'm in a long oh my yeah.
So okay, want to talk about Eveand Maze, right?
(35:44):
So apparently everyone who seesthem sees what's happening,
except for Eve, right, like,while Lucifer is in that big
mass, he says I'll be damned,which is an interesting line to
put in the devil's mouth.
Now that I think about it, yeah, and you know, and Dan sees it
and you know it's just-.
(36:05):
What's interesting, though, isthat everyone who sees it, what
they see is Maze.
So Lucifer knows Maze betterthan anybody.
Dan knows Maze I meanreasonably well.
He's known her for four yearsnow and has, and the way he's at
, like I've never seen you lookat her, look at anyone like the
way you look at her you don'twant to stab her.
(36:25):
So, whereas Eve is a relativelyyou know, relatively new in
Maze's life, Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
I think there's something reallyinteresting about sort of the
head demon, like whatever.
Whatever, she clearly has aspecial role.
She's not like all the othersMm-hmm, falling in love with the
(36:51):
first, second woman, I don'tknow.
There's something reallyinteresting about that.
You know that it is interestingand it also just so when Father
Kinley says like, ah, the firstsinner to her, there's, there's
something in there too and that, like the head demon, that
(37:12):
falling for the first sinneralthough I would, I mean
obviously there's a reason whyhe says that.
I mean like that's, that's youroriginal sin.
Oh, he even says you're theoriginal sinner.
So, even though I would say,like Kane is the first sinner,
really, well, it depends on yourdefinition of sin.
(37:34):
Yeah, this is.
This is based on me going like,yeah, having having some fruit,
right Even if you're told notto.
It was explicitly forbidden.
Yeah, so says the woman who wasstolen candy from her kids,
sweet buckets, so you know,having a little fruit that
(37:56):
you're told not to have, and thewhole scheme of things Right,
right, but yeah, I do want tolike.
Can we just have a momentaryappreciation post for Graham
McTavish, who plays FatherKinley, and then drama.
Great job, I totally believedhe was a different person, I
know, and I was wondering like,so I'm thinking like he must
(38:16):
actually be Irish, I'm assuming,because Graham McTavish, or
Scottish, scottish, I think,scottish, so from the UK, but
not Britain, because I thinkthat's just based on his name.
I think that's his actualaccents and I never questioned
(38:38):
the American accent Like thefirst time I watched it through,
like it was so, like I wasn'teven thinking about the fact
that it was except when Dron,most of us, I mean he sound like
a pirate, but he's chilling inevery version of it and then,
like the other thing that Ithought was really interesting
(38:58):
was McTavish, or where FatherKinley is like reassuring but a
little creepy before you knowwho he is.
There's, there's something,there's something very intense
about him, but there's like whenhe says, my child, you know,
like we knew this would bedifficult.
There's something reassuringabout it, like you can see why
(39:20):
he'd be a good priest.
The minute he's wearing likethe prison khakis and he's going
oh, my child, you're like, oh,whoa, no, no, no, no, no, you're
not calling me my child.
Nothing and I'm like and I knowsome of it is is really just
clothing.
Like you know, you put on a dogcollar, you get an air.
It's the same way that like thewhite coat effect, but at the
(39:43):
same time it's also likepartially just the way that
McTavish plays it and partiallythe fact that we now know who he
is and what he's willing to do.
And I loved Maze's comment.
She's like I tortured guys likehim before.
He will never change his mind.
He's a fanatic.
Then for him to be similarlybut differently creepy as Dromos
(40:09):
, like when he's like who's thenew king of hell?
To the baby, like there'ssomething like it's solicitous
and sweet and kind of a vuncularbut at the same time like oh my
God, poor child.
Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
He also got to deliver thatgreat like well, he and in
(40:32):
Barlavi, what makes you think oflike that?
Oh yeah, call it a hunch, callit a hunch.
Yeah, yeah, that was a nicecomedic, gruesome but comedic
moment.
Well, it's kind of like it'sdark comedy, definitely.
Yeah, in Barlavi had a couple ofreally like good, so when she
(40:53):
she's talking to Lucifer at theparty and I don't remember what
it is he said but gave her thesense that like oh, okay, things
are going to be okay now she'slike so when should I move my
stuff back in?
And it's just like yeah, oh,cringe, ouch, but she did it so
well.
And then the same thing whenshe's like kind of summoned a
demon from hell and seemed likea good idea at the time yeah,
(41:17):
you know, speaking of two, likewhy didn't Dromos just kill her?
He knocks her out, he says Idon't need you anymore.
Why do you just kill her?
I'm wondering if there's, ifthere's like some aspect of the
fact that she's, like celestialadjacent, divinely created.
Yeah, she was divinely createdby the hand of God, and that's
gonna be yeah, that's my headcannon now.
(41:39):
Okay.
Yeah, that's why he didn't.
Yeah, that's my head cannon now, cool, cool.
So, all right, I think I'mgoing to move us on to fluffier
topics.
Fluff to fluff, fluff.
I know they needed it for thepurposes of the storytelling,
but that scarf the first andonly time Chloe ever wears a
(42:00):
scarf and it is awful, it'sterrible, it's what she's done
on her.
I mean, like the first, like Iwant.
I'm like, do you have a hickey?
Like what are you doing?
That's not, that's not a brandfor you love Mm.
Hmm, all right.
So I've got two fluff.
One Dan beatboxing, pinnacle ofhuman achievement there.
(42:23):
Like all, human art has beenmoving towards that moment when
Kevin Elhan you're beatboxing,kevin Elhan, you're beatboxes.
It's just I, just I.
Everything was worth it to getthere.
So that's one.
(42:44):
The other is the hot pockets onthe silver platter From the
producer.
Yeah, like what?
Hot pocket, hot pocket?
Oh man, I don't like who doesthat.
(43:09):
So, so those are my two, twopieces of fluff.
Yeah, I think that's oh.
One other is it's the theincredible Hulk problem.
He burst out of his shirt buthis pants fit just fine.
So apparently some things don'tget bigger.
(43:32):
Maybe it was the wings.
Well he's.
You can also like see, he's gotyou know.
Yeah, they put big chest pieceon my shoulder Like he was yeah.
Yeah, he'd been bulking up whenhe was red.
(43:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he neededsome like salve or something.
That's the worst piece of riceI've ever seen.
It wasn't just red, though, itwas like shaggy.
Yeah, I mean, I think it'ssupposed to be like burn scars
or something.
Is that what you think?
Is that what it is?
(44:14):
No, maybe that's always what Iassumed his face was supposed to
be.
I'm gonna go watch that sceneagain For science, no for art.
So one of one of like the.
The scene that I have watchedover and over again, in part
just just for the.
(44:35):
The thirst trap is when heturns back into himself.
But I'd like to and the thelike and he's just looking fine,
like I just need to see thebelly button, please.
Yeah, I actually have watchedthat also, but I have to like
fast forward through Germanlines because she makes me so
(44:58):
unhappy.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, germs, I'm sureyou're a wonderful person and
I'm totally, yeah.
Yeah, I think we have overthunk it Totally.
We have definitely over thunkit and I'm supposed to be on a
call with someone else in fiveminutes, so I'll be better go
(45:21):
See you next week.
See you next week.
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