March 19, 2024 • 42 mins
In our conversation about “Really Sad Devil Guy” & “Lucifer! Lucifer! Lucifer!” we think a lot about the tropes and short cuts that come from soap opera storytelling. And we don’t hate it.
Both sisters are impressed with Tom Ellis’s ability to make us believe he is, in fact, his own twin (even down to his butt cheeks!). Tracie picks apart a key plot point in the case of the week, and Emily uses some very graphic metaphors to describe her reaction to Ellis’ American accent as Michael.
It is exceedingly clear that this episode was recorded more than a year ago, because though the angel-is-not-good and devil-is-not-bad twinning comparison to Good Omens is clear and obvious, we do not make it, raising Satanic Verses instead.
We also spend some time appreciating Lee, aka Mr. Said-Out-Bitch (Jeremiah Birkett), and his charm and emotional intelligence, even if he never fully lived up to his potential in life.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm actually here with my sister, emily Geibergen.
She doesn't use the hyphen,it's true.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm actually here with my sister, Tracy Geidecker
, and she does use the hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And together the two of us.
This is Lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning
of the crime-solving devil.
Tv show.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And yes, we're overthinking it.
We are so much.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're back and we're ready to talk about episodes 501
and 502, really sad devil guyand Lucifer Lucifer Lucifer,
which I feel like it could havebeen the name of our show,
actually.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yes, actually that would not have been a bad.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So you're going to have to be patient with me,
because even just this recordingsession we had to postpone a
little bit.
So I actually re-watched theepisodes it's been probably kind
of half so these are reallygood ones and I feel like
they're pretty well-seared in mybrain.
But I might get a littleconfused about order and stuff.
All right, Do you have a placeyou want to start?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Well, I want to start talking about Lee Garner, Mr
Setout bitch, Because I havealways had a soft spot for Mr
Setout bitch, just in seeing himrecurring.
He's so real, yes, and there'ssomething so charming about him,
yeah.
(01:43):
And even when the first time wemeet him in season two, he's
not going to a virtual restoreand he seems pretty hardened
until Lucifer does the what hedesire and he's like I want to
be free.
And he's like, oh yeah, becausehe thought it was the goddess
who's happening him.
He's like no man from debt andthere's just something so real
(02:10):
is a really good word for it.
You feel like who he is, youfeel the sense of humor he
brings to this world.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, the one, I mean the sense of humor.
For me is the most recent timewe've seen him before now, when
Lucifer's handing him all thathe's got the crown on and he's
like his arms are full of likegold and money and stuff he's
like.
Can I go now?
And then when he walks out andhe sees me, he's just like so.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, and so it kind of by giving him this entire
backstory with this full episode, which I think is is one of the
things I really like is thatJeremiah Birkitt, the actor, he
can bring it with Tom Ellis tosustain an entire episode and
(03:03):
like match him humor for humorand pathos for pathos, which is
amazing and you kind of you cankind of see what his whole life
was, that you know he wascharming, he was looking for
shortcuts.
There's absolutely excellentreason why Meg was so devoted to
him as sister.
You know she's she's.
We only get a little bit whereshe's telling the story about
him and taking her to see saw,but you can see where, like,
(03:28):
yeah, he was always going to bethe like, the charming screw up
in the family and but the charmwas real and there was a real
like undercurrent of I'm muchkindness.
I guess is kind of you know,under there, like, again, we
don't see much about him.
The only thing we see is thesource of his pain, you know,
(03:52):
realizing that he was so afraidof disappointing his family that
he missed his chance to seethem again, which is
heartbreaking, yeah, and thenfinding out just just how much
his sister missed him also isjust incredibly heartbreaking.
But I so love getting a chanceto spend time with him and then
(04:15):
also the the level of kind ofsavvy, like manipulation is such
a negative term, but the waythat he was kind of playing
Lucifer a little bit to be like,oh, I don't have to do that
hell loop for a little bit if Ikeep on talking, and again like
it all fits like if he had founda different way to be, like he
(04:38):
could have been reallysuccessful in different ventures
, because like that that takeslike intelligence and all and an
awareness of the like heactually read Lucifer really
really well, yeah, yeah.
So I mean his, his, his life isa.
It's tragic, but at the sametime there's something very
(05:02):
beautiful about it.
You know that there that's.
He did get that that moment ofintense joy at the very
beginning, before we knew thatthere was an out loop.
But you know, like I'm gladthat that Lee got to have at
least a moment of like, justdrizzle, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So I want to talk about the storytelling.
We are over thinkers, that'sthat's our job, that's what we
do on this show.
So you know I love and our 12viewers know that I love
dramatic irony.
Like I really enjoy sort ofknowing something that the
characters maybe don't know, andI think our showrunners
(05:52):
actually quite like that as well.
What's really interesting to meis that with this new arc with
Michael, they decided to likenot drag it out, which I think
was actually really smart.
I mean, there's a little pieceof me that's disappointed that
it didn't go on for longer, butonly a little piece, because I
(06:14):
think there was something verysatisfying too about sort of Lee
and Lucifer standing in frontof Lee's family home in hell.
And you know they talk aboutlike don't you miss her, don't
you want to go see her?
And then you see him come intothe space where she is and so
you're like you know, for amoment you're thinking it as she
(06:36):
does, that is him, butimmediately, immediately, the
showrunners show us he's stillthere.
So we get that.
We get a little dramatic ironyin that we know that that's not
really Lucifer and Chloe doesn't.
That only lasts for half anepisode, you know like into the
next episode.
It doesn't last for that long,which is really interesting.
(06:57):
But even in the sort ofstorytelling trickery like the
twist, they didn't give us thatfor very long either.
They didn't allow us to believethat that was in fact Lucifer
for very long.
So I was really like I noticedthat that really like stood out
to me, like how quickly that wasresolved for us, like the
(07:19):
trickery against us but alsoagainst Chloe and Mays.
The other thing that I'm goingto really overthink and I know I
know I'm over thinking it folksI know If Lucifer, if the
Archangel Michael had in factbeen Lucifer's twin in the last
(07:40):
season when we had a whole storyabout twins and hating yourself
, we sure as shit would haveheard about it.
You love.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
But we did get the moment of when Linda's trying to
figure out baby names.
We did.
What about Michael?
And a minute ago, Michael.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And in fact when this was newand I was talking to a good
friend of mine about it who Ihad gotten her into the show and
she was like the unknown twin,really the evil twin, and I was
like, well, yeah, I'm with you,and Neil Gaiman has painted the
(08:21):
Archangel Michael as a dickRepeatedly, right Like the
Archangel Michael is always anasshole in Neil Gaiman stories.
And so my friend was like, ohwell, I guess at least it's true
to source material which stillsticks with me, and overthinking
(08:43):
it cosmologically, actually,the idea that the Archangel, so
Michael, if we're going to talkabout names means who is like
God, michael, and the fact thatMichael, who is like God, and
the angel who becomes the devil,the name of which means maybe
(09:04):
squirge, maybe hammer, it'sunclear.
My humor is not good enough.
The Samuel.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Samuel.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But the idea that the one who becomes the devil, the
one who actually, like in theChristian mythos, tries to
overthrow and then ends upruling hell, is actually
literally twinned with the sortof second in command who stays
behind.
There is something reallysatisfying about that.
(09:32):
It's sort of that old tropeabout the two, like the hero and
the villain, who were friendsat school, but more so because
they actually have the same face, yeah.
So there's something like justdeeply, deeply satisfying about
this idea of twinning, which, Ihave to say, if I were ever in a
(09:54):
position to be a showrunner ona show like this, I mean I have
a really hard time imaginingthat eventually.
But hey, from my mouth to God'sear, right, I would be like
really the evil twin.
And then I'd be like, hmm,that's really satisfying that
the angel is the evil twin ofthe devil.
That's really satisfying and Iwould probably have green-lit it
(10:14):
too.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Well, it's a and that's all I have to say about
that.
Well, now I'm thinking of theSatanic verses, because the
asshole is the angel and thesweetheart is the devil.
It's been so many years since Iread it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I have it in details, but at least that long
since I read it.
It was your copy that I read.
Oh, so then it's more.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
But yeah, that playing around with that like
being on the side of the angeldoes not necessarily make you
good.
Yeah, is really interesting.
The other aspect of it in termsof storytelling is embracing
the fact that this show is alsoa soap opera.
Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean, like with the pairing, the shipping of Maison
and Almas, of Lauren Chloe,maison Chloe, yeah, that
shipping is like that's totalsoap opera drama, yeah yeah, and
so the long lost twin, and it'sthe miracle baby.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
There's so many aspects to it, and that's not to
say that I think of this aslike General Hospital or
anything like that.
But people who grew up to beshowrunners, I'm sure, just
consume all the television, andso there is that influence to it
as well, and that's part ofwhat I like about it.
Like, when I really get into ashow, I fall in love with the
(11:45):
characters and I need to knowwhat happens to them, and it is
like people will say, oh, it'sgotten soap opera, and I'm like
that's kind of what I like aboutit.
Yeah, so I do want to say so.
Tom Ellis, as Michael isamazing.
Oh my gosh, I forget, it's adifferent person I know Well,
(12:07):
like that was, like I was, so Imean I forget it's not a
different person.
Yeah, Watching the secondepisode, I find it hard to watch
because I'm like it's like TomEllis is hardly in it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But I'm like, I'm just like man, I miss him, I'm
like he's right there.
But I do want to say hisAmerican accent is both
impeccable and deeply upsetting.
Yeah, and I can't figure outwhat it is, why it's so
(12:51):
upsetting, considering it'sreally good.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like I think it's.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I mean, I think it's that sort of like unexpected,
you know, like it's like whenyou pick up a glass that you
think is water, and it's right.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, exactly, there's like wrong with right.
It's just upsetting.
Yes, it's very upsetting.
I think that's exactly what itis, exactly what it is.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I have this like a crave and like hate.
Hearing him in the Americanaccents it's like the pimple
opera videos Like.
After watching him I'm like,please no.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I find what's interesting is I find I'm so
internalized that Americanaccent as Michael that like now
when I go back you know theylike they released an album with
all the music and so like likewhen he's saying, like luck, be
a lady, like back in the Vegasepisode with candy and stuff,
and he did it like when he singsit's sort of that Americanized,
like ew, it sounds like Michael, so funny, so funny, yeah, okay
(13:57):
, all right.
So let's talk about that secondepisode briefly.
Like well, when Chloe knows,but we don't know if she knows,
and she's teasing him in frontof the vending machine, that
moment is so understated andbeautiful when she like lifts up
that and she says maybe thereflection, and she walks away
(14:17):
and he looks down and he's likereflection, reflection, so good,
I mean like the writing, theacting, the editing is so good
that moment.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
That's a perfection.
Yes, so good.
I do want to say, consideringthe twinning and the kind of
like the dark reflection of eachother, the fact that Michael's
power is fear, and fear beingopposite of desire is
(14:59):
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, yeah, well done showrunners, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And so I really appreciate that.
And then I also appreciate theway that, like on rewatch, you
see him using it without becausehe doesn't do the.
What is it that you fear?
Like he doesn't have to lookyou in the eye Until that moment
.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I mean, which actually makes sense, because I
think Lucifer can do that to anextent.
Yeah, which is how he ends upmaking out with people.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I find that really interesting in the way that he
draws out Like some of it justseems like he is attuned to
people's fears in the way thatLucifer is attuned to people's
desires.
So when Linda is like who'swatching hell, I got to protect
this baby.
And he, like it's very, veryminor but noticing, she says
(16:02):
this baby.
And like you know, some of thatis like someone who's very
attuned to people and attuned tothat particular like sense of
something wrong in the waypeople are talking would be able
to be like interesting choiceof words.
Why'd he say this baby so andso, and then at the end we see
(16:23):
that she had, she has thosepictures that have the 1994 with
her in a hospital gown with aninfant, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So I agree with everything that you said about
the attuned and the overthinkingmovement is like like a
menadial, so oblivious to humansociety when he first came to
earth I mean, we saw that in thelike in the flashback episode
(16:57):
where he drew a picture withJackle Cern, but even and like
when he slept with theprostitute because he didn't
know she was a prostitute, andlike just so completely
oblivious to human culture orMRAs and whatever, whereas
Michael is deeply attuned, likecompletely intercultural in that
(17:18):
sense, from Silver City tohumans, which is really like.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
What do you think?
I have an in universeexplanation for that.
Okay, so in universe.
In universe, not in universe.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Okay, that makes more sense.
I thought they were created.
Okay, All right, I'm with younow in universe.
Can you speak of Linda's baby?
I'm pulling this out ofsomewhere.
I'm pulling this out ofsomewhere.
I have to be right back.
All right, I'm back.
(17:56):
All right, let's hear it.
You're in universe.
Explanations.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So a Menomital makes it clear that he thinks he's
above humans.
It pays no attention whatsoever.
In the Silver City in myimagining Michael is fascinated
by humans because they are likebundles of fear.
So he's been watching all thistime and paying attention and
(18:26):
kind of taking things in,because they all have that fear
that he's most interested in.
And it would also fit with himbeing Lucifer's twin, because
Lucifer would be like they'rejust bundles of desire.
And so he is paying attentionin a way that Menadil never
would have occurred to him too,because you don't pay attention
(18:47):
to ants.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Or like Remy.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, yes, yes.
And since we overthink it, thatepisode where we see like five
years ago and like Lucy's inlike 70s, you know, fashion with
like the big wide lapels andthe bell bottoms and stuff.
I can explain that to you lasttime I was here.
(19:10):
They explain that to Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
So that is because from hell, lucy can't, can't,
pay attention to what's going onon earth, whereas from heaven,
silver city, you can see, okay,okay.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I mean it does seem clear that, Okay, he can't see,
because, like, even when he andLee are standing in front of
Lee's childhood home and they'relooking up, but it's clear that
he doesn't know.
And he also said, which Michaelsays too, so that seems in
(19:58):
universe, true that it's onlybeen a couple of months for them
, but it's been thousands ofyears.
So, like that, making the timedifferent, like you and I have a
hard time and it's like onehour difference.
So figuring out like where weare at the time, continuum, yeah
, all right.
All right, I guess I'll buy itSold, I'll buy it All right.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
There is one thing now it's because of I happened
to watch something two daysbefore I watched these two
episodes.
Adam Conover, who does?
Adam ruins everything.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I've only seen an episode or two, but I'm familiar
with it.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So he now has a podcast that he also releases on
YouTube, called factually,where he interviews people about
things that you know peopledon't know much about.
I meant to look it up before werecorded and I totally forgot.
But he was interviewing a womanwho was the author of a book
called snitch, and it's abouthow the police in America use
(21:05):
informants and how, at eitherend of the spectrum, it's
horrific, because at the one end, you've got these like tiny
little fish, like you knowsomeone's arrested for you know
carrying something pettymarijuana to get themselves high
, and they tell them you'regoing to go to jail unless you
inform on your dealer.
And then she was telling thishorrible story of a young woman
(21:29):
who got killed because of that.
Like she went to inform us, shewore a wire, the dealer found
it and killed her.
Then, on the other end of it,you've got like Jack Abramoff,
if you remember him, so likethis huge, corrupt, horrible
person who, because he knew theshit on everybody else, was able
(21:50):
to get off.
And so, having watched that theday before I watched these two
episodes, I was like very awareof the propaganda of these two
episodes and, in particular, theway Maze was manhandling the
(22:12):
guy that they brought in andthey play it for laughs and the
first time I saw it I did findit, you know, funny.
And there's the moment where sheand Chloe are finishing each
other's sentences without quitefinishing it and like that's
amazing and they also make thisguy gross.
So you don't feel bad for him,but at the same time it's just
(22:34):
like this is just some dude, youknow, he's just kind of lived
his life.
So between that and then youknow the subplot with the
men-a-deal, like I want to makethe world safe for my child and
I'm like, yeah, americanpolicing is not the way to do
that, and so I was reallyuncomfortable and you know, as
(23:01):
we've mentioned before, likedealing with the like teasing
out the fact that the show issomething that I adore, and yet
it is also a bit of a problem,part of the problem in American
policing and the assumption ofthe police being the good guys.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, we will get.
I mean, in season six we getthe show a little bit at least
examining that.
But but yeah, it's, it is anongoing yeah For me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
And then also like there was the joke about like
yeah, because a men-a-deal comesto Dan, he's like, all right,
I've got something.
He's like not anotherjailbreaker.
Right A litre or whatever Alitre or a three-year-old, and
it was a four-year-old orthree-year-old, and it's like
and it goes on for the joke, butat the same time it's just like
he knows that that's.
That has nothing to do withwhat's going to put his son at
(23:59):
rest.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
He was safe.
Yeah, he was son safe.
Yeah, and it seems a bit of,though, that a men-a-deal from
the beginning was presented asthis rule follower yeah, so
there is to an extent that thatfeels in character for this not
quite fallen angel who's youknow?
(24:22):
That is a learning edge for himabout the fact that rules
aren't fair just because they'rerules.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
So in the subplot, though, of the like, the case of
the week, there's a big old gapfor me in the like why did
Lucifer give her that message,and what happened to what was in
the safe?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I think what was supposed to be, what happened
was in the safe was he'd spentit.
It was just gone, and so it wasthe same thing that he always
did.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
So why did Lucifer send Chloe that message?
That's a good question, BecauseLiam Lucifer don't know that
the hand's been removed.
That happens post-mortem.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Like that the safe is the reason they took that.
That seems like the reason thatthey would have told her that,
but they don't know.
That feels like a whole.
Yeah, I think you're right Inthat story.
I think you're right Like itwas it made it.
It made for some interestinglike character and detectable
(25:43):
work Well back and we for someinteresting back and forth in
the actually like figuring outwhat the hell the message meant,
a little who's on first.
That was kind of amusing,especially with that added layer
of like Chloe can't tell, atleast I mean can't tell maze,
but can't tell.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
In front of she thought yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
But well, I mean, the only thing to think of is that,
like demons can be kind of dumb, and he didn't.
He had limited time in thatjacked up body.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
But he, the message was clear, Like he was like.
I don't know you stored it.
That feels like a hole to me inthe storyline.
The other overthinking thingwhich happens in both of these
episodes is like how do thedemons know that this new
arrival is related Like well?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
the only thing I can think of is that, since now the,
the, the timeframe, like we.
We don't know the exact, butMalcolm in season one was dead
for 30 seconds and it was like30 years.
So they're not like in hell,they're not new arrivals, like
(27:01):
they could have been there forwhat felt like four or five
years.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Except that in the second episode actually I don't
remember which one, because it'sbeen too long but one of them
is like why am I here?
What's going on?
Right Like it's the demon, thedemons, the neighbor watering
the lawn, wearing the bathrobe,lord of the suffer, what?
(27:28):
And then he's like standingthere with the guy that had just
died.
I don't know if it was one ofLee's hunch.
Yeah, I think it was.
It happens a couple of times,but one of the one of the newly
deceased is like what's going on?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
That's true, all right, that's another whole.
Unless, although, to your pointperhaps, they were in their
hell loop and the demons sawChloe and was like, oh wait,
chloe's in the guy's hell loop,yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Cause, if the hell loop, and then if they take them
, take them out of the hell loop.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
That's like.
It's like they started overagain, so maybe that's what it?
Is so.
So maybe it was just at the endof their first hell loop.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Maybe, or even in the middle.
Yeah, depending on the demons,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
So I want to talk about the case of the week.
In the second one, I hadcompletely forgotten that they
were, you know, poking fun atElon Musk and and, uh, and
Jeff's yeah, I completely forgotabout that with Anders Brody,
which I was, I had alsoforgotten that.
They brought him back, likethat.
We met him once before and theybrought him back and the guy's,
like I thought we were friends,so they, I felt like they did a
(28:41):
nice job, because sometimesthey tried to tie the case of
the week to the, the, thecharacters, and it is like what
the hell?
This is ridiculous.
And then this one I felt likethey did a nice job of like you
know, it really is like someonegoes someplace, they're away
from their, their, their, theirregular life for a long time.
They come back, changed, butnot that changed.
(29:01):
So I liked the parallels and itwas Chloe seeing the parallels,
cause it was, it wasn't there.
But we get to the end.
We find out who the murderer isand it's that woman thinking
that's the guy was cheating onher.
And he, as soon as he realizesthat's what happened, he
confesses and she's like no, no,I won't let you confess.
(29:22):
And then he's like nothingwould change the way I feel
about you and I'm like I don'tknow, murder, murder would
change the way I feel aboutsomeone.
I mean like that sounds lovely,but same same.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
There are things that you could do that would make me
not want to be with you.
I mean, yeah, Like and likestabbing my coworker in the neck
.
That's one of them.
Yeah, yeah, it's on the let me.
Let me check the list.
Yeah, let's run through on thelist.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Well to be fair to the, to the show also.
I feel like not that it's thesame.
But Chloe saying to to Michael,like yeah, I knew Lucifer would
never do that to me, but dothat to me with with Mays would
never like that's when she knewfor sure.
(30:16):
Like this is not Lucifer, Idon't buy that.
Yeah Well, like it's the natureof it's, like it was the, the
performative nature of it's.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, the way that he was like when, when, when
Michael was like okay, well, I'mjust going to go home on my
lonesome, and she was like wasthat an invitation?
And and Dan was like I don'tknow, that part was clearly not
like Lucifer would never haveignored her clear attempts to
spend time with that.
I do think she's right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, well, and it was, it was set up.
I mean, it was clearly a set up, yeah, so so it's not that
Lucifer would never with Mays,it's Lucifer would never set her
up to catch her with Mays.
Yeah, I remember the first timeI watched this.
The whole time I was like she'sgot it, please, she's got it,
(31:17):
she's got it.
Does she know?
I don't know.
Does she know?
No, yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
German redeems herself a little bit with these
two episodes from my like superdislike of the the end of season
four.
Cause that, yeah, Cause youknow what, I binged the first
three or maybe all four seasonsand then.
But then I was, I was with therest of the world waiting for
five, and so, and you know likefour ended and I was like, oh,
(31:50):
Mark, German Recast.
But then season five started.
I was like, oh, hmm, perhaps Ijudged too harshly because that,
yeah, she does an awesome job.
Yeah, Like, even in like sortof the does she know or doesn't
she Like she does a great job.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, yeah, she does.
I've seen people say that theycan tell when Michael is putting
on Lucifer's accents.
But it's not quite Lucifer'saccent.
I can't quite hear that.
Oh no, me neither.
But when he is putting onLucifer's accent, and
particularly when they're infront of the vending machine, he
is definitely not Lucifer there, like you can and like that is
(32:36):
so impressive.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, because there's a discomfiture.
He's enjoying her attention,but there is a discomfiture that
Lucifer would not have Like.
There is a like not quitecomfortable in his skin feeling
that you get from him in thatscene that Lucifer would not
have when that was happening atall.
(32:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know the other.
So there's another momentthat's like, hmm, michael,
lucifer kind of thing, which iswhen he breaks into the home of
it turns out the murderer andthe person they thought was the
murderer that, like Lucifer hasdone before Oops, it was open.
And then the way Michael justtakes off and it's sort of scary
(33:21):
the way she's following andseeing just like his glimpses of
him in the distance.
And then they hear the shotguncock and like have to like jump
out of the way.
That whole scene, what, whatwas Michael's angle, like, what
was?
Was he like grooving on thefear, like I don't, I don't get
(33:45):
what was happening, that Michaelkept going.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Well, the grooving on the fearis is is reasonable, like you
know, because if he senses thefear of the people in the house,
like the thing that I wasthinking as it was happening was
like, well, he is invulnerable.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, and he has no fear.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, so he has no fear of his physical safety
anyway.
The other thing that I foundinteresting this time around was
like when he jumps over the carwith her which is an amazing
scene and I am so resentful thatit's Michael but then also with
(34:27):
the shotgun, when he grabs herand and and he protects her the
way Lucifer would in both ofthose scenes.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, he needs her to believe that he's Lucifer.
Yeah, in order to break, tobreak his life, to break
Lucifer's life the way that hewants to.
So that makes a certain amountof sense.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It does.
It's the, the lack ofhesitation, it's like there's
there's no question, it's justlike an immediate like.
And that's that's where I waslike that's interesting, what's
going on here?
And I don't know.
I mean it's.
This is me overthinking it.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, so the scene where she reveals him.
You know where she shoots him.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
It's like you know this doesn't hurt me.
It's like, yeah, but it's maybefeel better.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Feel better, and then , to prove that he's not like
that, who he is, he shows herhis wings.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, these look like Lucifer'swings.
Yeah, and even that, actuallythinking of the symbolism and
the twinning, right, lucifer haslike bright white wings and
(35:38):
Michael's wings are like graydark, which is sort of
interesting in terms oftraditional symbolism, right.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
It's interesting also because, like that dark gray is
like in some ways, the color offear, like I.
You know, if fear had a color,the idea that desire could be
like bright, bright, isinteresting, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, cool, all right .
Well, we've been talking for along minute now, so do you have
any fluff you want to lay on us?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
I got two pieces of fluff, okay.
The first is that Linda looksamazing in these episodes.
Like she's just gorgeous, Ialso.
I mean, she's also the kind ofmom that drove me nuts when I,
my kids, were babies.
It's completely understandableand like forgivable and all of
(36:42):
that, but it's also just likecalm down, calm down.
Another like very small thingElla has to do some.
Like it's thankless what AmyGarcia has to do, that she has
to give exposition.
It's like, yeah, sometimes Ireally like that.
Boys like that, that exposition.
(37:04):
And then also the fact that shehad to define STEM.
Like did someone at Netflix saylike, oh, people aren't going
to know what STEM means?
Like, just let's go with it, wecan Google it.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, I thought it stuck out to me as well,
that stuck out so well.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah.
And just like poor Amy Garcia.
So that's one.
Like Linda looks amazing andyeah, and then poor Amy.
Then the other is how Tom Ellissuch a good actor that he can
make his ass look unattractivewhen he's Michael.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, it's really funny.
And he's not doing the shoulderthing, then no, he is.
Well, I mean only slightly.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
It's not that like.
There's the time where I was insilhouette where it's real
obvious and it's because he'slike relaxing after having to be
Lucifer all day, Like when he'spretending in the mirror he's,
it's more a little bit.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, it's funny because I remember the first
time I was watching I was likewhat is?
Why is he standing like that?
What's wrong with his arm?
What's wrong with his back?
Like it was enough that I?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
you know, maybe I study Tom's back more than I was
able to like something that aregoing like.
I do not want to be looking atthis.
There's a normal way I still do.
That's what I'm looking at.
I'm not saying A passport oranything.
Yeah, yeah, but it's not likeyou know in previous iterations
(38:40):
or I've been like can we makethis last three or four minutes
longer?
It's just like it's entirelyacting.
How do ask he's act?
I don't know.
Those are, those are my flaws.
(39:01):
I wish I had something reallygood, I am wondering how many
pianos Lucifer goes through in ayear.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, that's not fluff, like that's legit.
Why didn't he take her?
All she wanted for the pastfive years was to go back, yeah.
And then and she'd just beendumped Like, yeah, take the poor
girl home.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yeah, she, I know, on the like, the like discussion
boards about Lucifer, people getreally mad at May's because,
you know, every season shebetrays Lucifer or her friends
and it's, like you know, I feellike they did reasonable
character work in, like in everyseason.
(39:55):
It is completely understandablewhy she does what she does and
this one is like the mostcomprehensible.
And then the way that she istrying to use Chloe to fill all
of the, the emptiness that, likeyou know, because she's she's
missing Eve.
Then, like Lucifer, her, herbest and oldest friend, has
(40:16):
basically abandoned her yeah,abandoned, completely abandoned
her, and she's stuck here.
And then when she she puts themove on Chloe, like that also
makes sense because that's theonly way she knows how to be
close to people.
Mm, hmm, yep, and so, yeah,yeah, yeah, who?
(40:37):
Amazed?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, I don't want to end there.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I don't want to end there.
Oh, I got.
I got another like little leafA menadil in the first episode,
wearing that three piece suit.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Facebook just told me I wanted to be websites top
fans.
Hi TV oh man, that's a goodplace to add it.
Yes, all right, we overthink itenough for one day.
We overthink it so much today,I will see you, I don't know
(41:21):
whenever we're able to do thisagain.
Yeah, the goal is next weekAbout that.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin
McLeod from Incompetentcom,Licensed under Creative Commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(41:56):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm actually here with my sister, emily Geibergen.
She doesn't use the hyphen,it's true.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm actually here with my sister, Tracy Geidecker
, and she does use the hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And together the two of us.
This is Lightbringers, where weilluminate the deeper meaning
of the crime-solving devil.
Tv show.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
And yes, we're overthinking it.
We are so much.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We're back and we're ready to talk about episodes 501
and 502, really sad devil guyand Lucifer Lucifer Lucifer,
which I feel like it could havebeen the name of our show,
actually.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yes, actually that would not have been a bad.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
So you're going to have to be patient with me,
because even just this recordingsession we had to postpone a
little bit.
So I actually re-watched theepisodes it's been probably kind
of half so these are reallygood ones and I feel like
they're pretty well-seared in mybrain.
But I might get a littleconfused about order and stuff.
All right, Do you have a placeyou want to start?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Well, I want to start talking about Lee Garner, Mr
Setout bitch, Because I havealways had a soft spot for Mr
Setout bitch, just in seeing himrecurring.
He's so real, yes, and there'ssomething so charming about him,
yeah.
(01:43):
And even when the first time wemeet him in season two, he's
not going to a virtual restoreand he seems pretty hardened
until Lucifer does the what hedesire and he's like I want to
be free.
And he's like, oh yeah, becausehe thought it was the goddess
who's happening him.
He's like no man from debt andthere's just something so real
(02:10):
is a really good word for it.
You feel like who he is, youfeel the sense of humor he
brings to this world.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, the one, I mean the sense of humor.
For me is the most recent timewe've seen him before now, when
Lucifer's handing him all thathe's got the crown on and he's
like his arms are full of likegold and money and stuff he's
like.
Can I go now?
And then when he walks out andhe sees me, he's just like so.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Well, and so it kind of by giving him this entire
backstory with this full episode, which I think is is one of the
things I really like is thatJeremiah Birkitt, the actor, he
can bring it with Tom Ellis tosustain an entire episode and
(03:03):
like match him humor for humorand pathos for pathos, which is
amazing and you kind of you cankind of see what his whole life
was, that you know he wascharming, he was looking for
shortcuts.
There's absolutely excellentreason why Meg was so devoted to
him as sister.
You know she's she's.
We only get a little bit whereshe's telling the story about
him and taking her to see saw,but you can see where, like,
(03:28):
yeah, he was always going to bethe like, the charming screw up
in the family and but the charmwas real and there was a real
like undercurrent of I'm muchkindness.
I guess is kind of you know,under there, like, again, we
don't see much about him.
The only thing we see is thesource of his pain, you know,
(03:52):
realizing that he was so afraidof disappointing his family that
he missed his chance to seethem again, which is
heartbreaking, yeah, and thenfinding out just just how much
his sister missed him also isjust incredibly heartbreaking.
But I so love getting a chanceto spend time with him and then
(04:15):
also the the level of kind ofsavvy, like manipulation is such
a negative term, but the waythat he was kind of playing
Lucifer a little bit to be like,oh, I don't have to do that
hell loop for a little bit if Ikeep on talking, and again like
it all fits like if he had founda different way to be, like he
(04:38):
could have been reallysuccessful in different ventures
, because like that that takeslike intelligence and all and an
awareness of the like heactually read Lucifer really
really well, yeah, yeah.
So I mean his, his, his life isa.
It's tragic, but at the sametime there's something very
(05:02):
beautiful about it.
You know that there that's.
He did get that that moment ofintense joy at the very
beginning, before we knew thatthere was an out loop.
But you know, like I'm gladthat that Lee got to have at
least a moment of like, justdrizzle, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
So I want to talk about the storytelling.
We are over thinkers, that'sthat's our job, that's what we
do on this show.
So you know I love and our 12viewers know that I love
dramatic irony.
Like I really enjoy sort ofknowing something that the
characters maybe don't know, andI think our showrunners
(05:52):
actually quite like that as well.
What's really interesting to meis that with this new arc with
Michael, they decided to likenot drag it out, which I think
was actually really smart.
I mean, there's a little pieceof me that's disappointed that
it didn't go on for longer, butonly a little piece, because I
(06:14):
think there was something verysatisfying too about sort of Lee
and Lucifer standing in frontof Lee's family home in hell.
And you know they talk aboutlike don't you miss her, don't
you want to go see her?
And then you see him come intothe space where she is and so
you're like you know, for amoment you're thinking it as she
(06:36):
does, that is him, butimmediately, immediately, the
showrunners show us he's stillthere.
So we get that.
We get a little dramatic ironyin that we know that that's not
really Lucifer and Chloe doesn't.
That only lasts for half anepisode, you know like into the
next episode.
It doesn't last for that long,which is really interesting.
(06:57):
But even in the sort ofstorytelling trickery like the
twist, they didn't give us thatfor very long either.
They didn't allow us to believethat that was in fact Lucifer
for very long.
So I was really like I noticedthat that really like stood out
to me, like how quickly that wasresolved for us, like the
(07:19):
trickery against us but alsoagainst Chloe and Mays.
The other thing that I'm goingto really overthink and I know I
know I'm over thinking it folksI know If Lucifer, if the
Archangel Michael had in factbeen Lucifer's twin in the last
(07:40):
season when we had a whole storyabout twins and hating yourself
, we sure as shit would haveheard about it.
You love.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
But we did get the moment of when Linda's trying to
figure out baby names.
We did.
What about Michael?
And a minute ago, Michael.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And in fact when this was newand I was talking to a good
friend of mine about it who Ihad gotten her into the show and
she was like the unknown twin,really the evil twin, and I was
like, well, yeah, I'm with you,and Neil Gaiman has painted the
(08:21):
Archangel Michael as a dickRepeatedly, right Like the
Archangel Michael is always anasshole in Neil Gaiman stories.
And so my friend was like, ohwell, I guess at least it's true
to source material which stillsticks with me, and overthinking
(08:43):
it cosmologically, actually,the idea that the Archangel, so
Michael, if we're going to talkabout names means who is like
God, michael, and the fact thatMichael, who is like God, and
the angel who becomes the devil,the name of which means maybe
(09:04):
squirge, maybe hammer, it'sunclear.
My humor is not good enough.
The Samuel.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Samuel.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
But the idea that the one who becomes the devil, the
one who actually, like in theChristian mythos, tries to
overthrow and then ends upruling hell, is actually
literally twinned with the sortof second in command who stays
behind.
There is something reallysatisfying about that.
(09:32):
It's sort of that old tropeabout the two, like the hero and
the villain, who were friendsat school, but more so because
they actually have the same face, yeah.
So there's something like justdeeply, deeply satisfying about
this idea of twinning, which, Ihave to say, if I were ever in a
(09:54):
position to be a showrunner ona show like this, I mean I have
a really hard time imaginingthat eventually.
But hey, from my mouth to God'sear, right, I would be like
really the evil twin.
And then I'd be like, hmm,that's really satisfying that
the angel is the evil twin ofthe devil.
That's really satisfying and Iwould probably have green-lit it
(10:14):
too.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Well, it's a and that's all I have to say about
that.
Well, now I'm thinking of theSatanic verses, because the
asshole is the angel and thesweetheart is the devil.
It's been so many years since Iread it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I have it in details, but at least that long
since I read it.
It was your copy that I read.
Oh, so then it's more.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
But yeah, that playing around with that like
being on the side of the angeldoes not necessarily make you
good.
Yeah, is really interesting.
The other aspect of it in termsof storytelling is embracing
the fact that this show is alsoa soap opera.
Do you know what?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I mean, like with the pairing, the shipping of Maison
and Almas, of Lauren Chloe,maison Chloe, yeah, that
shipping is like that's totalsoap opera drama, yeah yeah, and
so the long lost twin, and it'sthe miracle baby.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
There's so many aspects to it, and that's not to
say that I think of this aslike General Hospital or
anything like that.
But people who grew up to beshowrunners, I'm sure, just
consume all the television, andso there is that influence to it
as well, and that's part ofwhat I like about it.
Like, when I really get into ashow, I fall in love with the
(11:45):
characters and I need to knowwhat happens to them, and it is
like people will say, oh, it'sgotten soap opera, and I'm like
that's kind of what I like aboutit.
Yeah, so I do want to say so.
Tom Ellis, as Michael isamazing.
Oh my gosh, I forget, it's adifferent person I know Well,
(12:07):
like that was, like I was, so Imean I forget it's not a
different person.
Yeah, Watching the secondepisode, I find it hard to watch
because I'm like it's like TomEllis is hardly in it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
But I'm like, I'm just like man, I miss him, I'm
like he's right there.
But I do want to say hisAmerican accent is both
impeccable and deeply upsetting.
Yeah, and I can't figure outwhat it is, why it's so
(12:51):
upsetting, considering it'sreally good.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Like I think it's.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I mean, I think it's that sort of like unexpected,
you know, like it's like whenyou pick up a glass that you
think is water, and it's right.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, exactly, there's like wrong with right.
It's just upsetting.
Yes, it's very upsetting.
I think that's exactly what itis, exactly what it is.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
I have this like a crave and like hate.
Hearing him in the Americanaccents it's like the pimple
opera videos Like.
After watching him I'm like,please no.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I find what's interesting is I find I'm so
internalized that Americanaccent as Michael that like now
when I go back you know theylike they released an album with
all the music and so like likewhen he's saying, like luck, be
a lady, like back in the Vegasepisode with candy and stuff,
and he did it like when he singsit's sort of that Americanized,
like ew, it sounds like Michael, so funny, so funny, yeah, okay
(13:57):
, all right.
So let's talk about that secondepisode briefly.
Like well, when Chloe knows,but we don't know if she knows,
and she's teasing him in frontof the vending machine, that
moment is so understated andbeautiful when she like lifts up
that and she says maybe thereflection, and she walks away
(14:17):
and he looks down and he's likereflection, reflection, so good,
I mean like the writing, theacting, the editing is so good
that moment.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
That's a perfection.
Yes, so good.
I do want to say, consideringthe twinning and the kind of
like the dark reflection of eachother, the fact that Michael's
power is fear, and fear beingopposite of desire is
(14:59):
fascinating.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, yeah, well done showrunners, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And so I really appreciate that.
And then I also appreciate theway that, like on rewatch, you
see him using it without becausehe doesn't do the.
What is it that you fear?
Like he doesn't have to lookyou in the eye Until that moment
.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah, I mean, which actually makes sense, because I
think Lucifer can do that to anextent.
Yeah, which is how he ends upmaking out with people.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
I find that really interesting in the way that he
draws out Like some of it justseems like he is attuned to
people's fears in the way thatLucifer is attuned to people's
desires.
So when Linda is like who'swatching hell, I got to protect
this baby.
And he, like it's very, veryminor but noticing, she says
(16:02):
this baby.
And like you know, some of thatis like someone who's very
attuned to people and attuned tothat particular like sense of
something wrong in the waypeople are talking would be able
to be like interesting choiceof words.
Why'd he say this baby so andso, and then at the end we see
(16:23):
that she had, she has thosepictures that have the 1994 with
her in a hospital gown with aninfant, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
So I agree with everything that you said about
the attuned and the overthinkingmovement is like like a
menadial, so oblivious to humansociety when he first came to
earth I mean, we saw that in thelike in the flashback episode
(16:57):
where he drew a picture withJackle Cern, but even and like
when he slept with theprostitute because he didn't
know she was a prostitute, andlike just so completely
oblivious to human culture orMRAs and whatever, whereas
Michael is deeply attuned, likecompletely intercultural in that
(17:18):
sense, from Silver City tohumans, which is really like.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
What do you think?
I have an in universeexplanation for that.
Okay, so in universe.
In universe, not in universe.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Okay, that makes more sense.
I thought they were created.
Okay, All right, I'm with younow in universe.
Can you speak of Linda's baby?
I'm pulling this out ofsomewhere.
I'm pulling this out ofsomewhere.
I have to be right back.
All right, I'm back.
(17:56):
All right, let's hear it.
You're in universe.
Explanations.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
So a Menomital makes it clear that he thinks he's
above humans.
It pays no attention whatsoever.
In the Silver City in myimagining Michael is fascinated
by humans because they are likebundles of fear.
So he's been watching all thistime and paying attention and
(18:26):
kind of taking things in,because they all have that fear
that he's most interested in.
And it would also fit with himbeing Lucifer's twin, because
Lucifer would be like they'rejust bundles of desire.
And so he is paying attentionin a way that Menadil never
would have occurred to him too,because you don't pay attention
(18:47):
to ants.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Or like Remy.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, yes, yes.
And since we overthink it, thatepisode where we see like five
years ago and like Lucy's inlike 70s, you know, fashion with
like the big wide lapels andthe bell bottoms and stuff.
I can explain that to you lasttime I was here.
(19:10):
They explain that to Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
So that is because from hell, lucy can't, can't,
pay attention to what's going onon earth, whereas from heaven,
silver city, you can see, okay,okay.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I mean it does seem clear that, Okay, he can't see,
because, like, even when he andLee are standing in front of
Lee's childhood home and they'relooking up, but it's clear that
he doesn't know.
And he also said, which Michaelsays too, so that seems in
(19:58):
universe, true that it's onlybeen a couple of months for them
, but it's been thousands ofyears.
So, like that, making the timedifferent, like you and I have a
hard time and it's like onehour difference.
So figuring out like where weare at the time, continuum, yeah
, all right.
All right, I guess I'll buy itSold, I'll buy it All right.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
There is one thing now it's because of I happened
to watch something two daysbefore I watched these two
episodes.
Adam Conover, who does?
Adam ruins everything.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
I've only seen an episode or two, but I'm familiar
with it.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
So he now has a podcast that he also releases on
YouTube, called factually,where he interviews people about
things that you know peopledon't know much about.
I meant to look it up before werecorded and I totally forgot.
But he was interviewing a womanwho was the author of a book
called snitch, and it's abouthow the police in America use
(21:05):
informants and how, at eitherend of the spectrum, it's
horrific, because at the one end, you've got these like tiny
little fish, like you knowsomeone's arrested for you know
carrying something pettymarijuana to get themselves high
, and they tell them you'regoing to go to jail unless you
inform on your dealer.
And then she was telling thishorrible story of a young woman
(21:29):
who got killed because of that.
Like she went to inform us, shewore a wire, the dealer found
it and killed her.
Then, on the other end of it,you've got like Jack Abramoff,
if you remember him, so likethis huge, corrupt, horrible
person who, because he knew theshit on everybody else, was able
(21:50):
to get off.
And so, having watched that theday before I watched these two
episodes, I was like very awareof the propaganda of these two
episodes and, in particular, theway Maze was manhandling the
(22:12):
guy that they brought in andthey play it for laughs and the
first time I saw it I did findit, you know, funny.
And there's the moment where sheand Chloe are finishing each
other's sentences without quitefinishing it and like that's
amazing and they also make thisguy gross.
So you don't feel bad for him,but at the same time it's just
(22:34):
like this is just some dude, youknow, he's just kind of lived
his life.
So between that and then youknow the subplot with the
men-a-deal, like I want to makethe world safe for my child and
I'm like, yeah, americanpolicing is not the way to do
that, and so I was reallyuncomfortable and you know, as
(23:01):
we've mentioned before, likedealing with the like teasing
out the fact that the show issomething that I adore, and yet
it is also a bit of a problem,part of the problem in American
policing and the assumption ofthe police being the good guys.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, we will get.
I mean, in season six we getthe show a little bit at least
examining that.
But but yeah, it's, it is anongoing yeah For me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
And then also like there was the joke about like
yeah, because a men-a-deal comesto Dan, he's like, all right,
I've got something.
He's like not anotherjailbreaker.
Right A litre or whatever Alitre or a three-year-old, and
it was a four-year-old orthree-year-old, and it's like
and it goes on for the joke, butat the same time it's just like
he knows that that's.
That has nothing to do withwhat's going to put his son at
(23:59):
rest.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
He was safe.
Yeah, he was son safe.
Yeah, and it seems a bit of,though, that a men-a-deal from
the beginning was presented asthis rule follower yeah, so
there is to an extent that thatfeels in character for this not
quite fallen angel who's youknow?
(24:22):
That is a learning edge for himabout the fact that rules
aren't fair just because they'rerules.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
So in the subplot, though, of the like, the case of
the week, there's a big old gapfor me in the like why did
Lucifer give her that message,and what happened to what was in
the safe?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I think what was supposed to be, what happened
was in the safe was he'd spentit.
It was just gone, and so it wasthe same thing that he always
did.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
So why did Lucifer send Chloe that message?
That's a good question, BecauseLiam Lucifer don't know that
the hand's been removed.
That happens post-mortem.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Like that the safe is the reason they took that.
That seems like the reason thatthey would have told her that,
but they don't know.
That feels like a whole.
Yeah, I think you're right Inthat story.
I think you're right Like itwas it made it.
It made for some interestinglike character and detectable
(25:43):
work Well back and we for someinteresting back and forth in
the actually like figuring outwhat the hell the message meant,
a little who's on first.
That was kind of amusing,especially with that added layer
of like Chloe can't tell, atleast I mean can't tell maze,
but can't tell.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
In front of she thought yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
But well, I mean, the only thing to think of is that,
like demons can be kind of dumb, and he didn't.
He had limited time in thatjacked up body.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
But he, the message was clear, Like he was like.
I don't know you stored it.
That feels like a hole to me inthe storyline.
The other overthinking thingwhich happens in both of these
episodes is like how do thedemons know that this new
arrival is related Like well?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
the only thing I can think of is that, since now the,
the, the timeframe, like we.
We don't know the exact, butMalcolm in season one was dead
for 30 seconds and it was like30 years.
So they're not like in hell,they're not new arrivals, like
(27:01):
they could have been there forwhat felt like four or five
years.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Except that in the second episode actually I don't
remember which one, because it'sbeen too long but one of them
is like why am I here?
What's going on?
Right Like it's the demon, thedemons, the neighbor watering
the lawn, wearing the bathrobe,lord of the suffer, what?
(27:28):
And then he's like standingthere with the guy that had just
died.
I don't know if it was one ofLee's hunch.
Yeah, I think it was.
It happens a couple of times,but one of the one of the newly
deceased is like what's going on?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
That's true, all right, that's another whole.
Unless, although, to your pointperhaps, they were in their
hell loop and the demons sawChloe and was like, oh wait,
chloe's in the guy's hell loop,yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Cause, if the hell loop, and then if they take them
, take them out of the hell loop.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
That's like.
It's like they started overagain, so maybe that's what it?
Is so.
So maybe it was just at the endof their first hell loop.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Maybe, or even in the middle.
Yeah, depending on the demons,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
So I want to talk about the case of the week.
In the second one, I hadcompletely forgotten that they
were, you know, poking fun atElon Musk and and, uh, and
Jeff's yeah, I completely forgotabout that with Anders Brody,
which I was, I had alsoforgotten that.
They brought him back, likethat.
We met him once before and theybrought him back and the guy's,
like I thought we were friends,so they, I felt like they did a
(28:41):
nice job, because sometimesthey tried to tie the case of
the week to the, the, thecharacters, and it is like what
the hell?
This is ridiculous.
And then this one I felt likethey did a nice job of like you
know, it really is like someonegoes someplace, they're away
from their, their, their, theirregular life for a long time.
They come back, changed, butnot that changed.
(29:01):
So I liked the parallels and itwas Chloe seeing the parallels,
cause it was, it wasn't there.
But we get to the end.
We find out who the murderer isand it's that woman thinking
that's the guy was cheating onher.
And he, as soon as he realizesthat's what happened, he
confesses and she's like no, no,I won't let you confess.
(29:22):
And then he's like nothingwould change the way I feel
about you and I'm like I don'tknow, murder, murder would
change the way I feel aboutsomeone.
I mean like that sounds lovely,but same same.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
There are things that you could do that would make me
not want to be with you.
I mean, yeah, Like and likestabbing my coworker in the neck
.
That's one of them.
Yeah, yeah, it's on the let me.
Let me check the list.
Yeah, let's run through on thelist.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Well to be fair to the, to the show also.
I feel like not that it's thesame.
But Chloe saying to to Michael,like yeah, I knew Lucifer would
never do that to me, but dothat to me with with Mays would
never like that's when she knewfor sure.
(30:16):
Like this is not Lucifer, Idon't buy that.
Yeah Well, like it's the natureof it's, like it was the, the
performative nature of it's.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, the way that he was like when, when, when
Michael was like okay, well, I'mjust going to go home on my
lonesome, and she was like wasthat an invitation?
And and Dan was like I don'tknow, that part was clearly not
like Lucifer would never haveignored her clear attempts to
spend time with that.
I do think she's right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, well, and it was, it was set up.
I mean, it was clearly a set up, yeah, so so it's not that
Lucifer would never with Mays,it's Lucifer would never set her
up to catch her with Mays.
Yeah, I remember the first timeI watched this.
The whole time I was like she'sgot it, please, she's got it,
(31:17):
she's got it.
Does she know?
I don't know.
Does she know?
No, yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
German redeems herself a little bit with these
two episodes from my like superdislike of the the end of season
four.
Cause that, yeah, Cause youknow what, I binged the first
three or maybe all four seasonsand then.
But then I was, I was with therest of the world waiting for
five, and so, and you know likefour ended and I was like, oh,
(31:50):
Mark, German Recast.
But then season five started.
I was like, oh, hmm, perhaps Ijudged too harshly because that,
yeah, she does an awesome job.
Yeah, Like, even in like sortof the does she know or doesn't
she Like she does a great job.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, yeah, she does.
I've seen people say that theycan tell when Michael is putting
on Lucifer's accents.
But it's not quite Lucifer'saccent.
I can't quite hear that.
Oh no, me neither.
But when he is putting onLucifer's accent, and
particularly when they're infront of the vending machine, he
is definitely not Lucifer there, like you can and like that is
(32:36):
so impressive.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, yeah, because there's a discomfiture.
He's enjoying her attention,but there is a discomfiture that
Lucifer would not have Like.
There is a like not quitecomfortable in his skin feeling
that you get from him in thatscene that Lucifer would not
have when that was happening atall.
(32:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know the other.
So there's another momentthat's like, hmm, michael,
lucifer kind of thing, which iswhen he breaks into the home of
it turns out the murderer andthe person they thought was the
murderer that, like Lucifer hasdone before Oops, it was open.
And then the way Michael justtakes off and it's sort of scary
(33:21):
the way she's following andseeing just like his glimpses of
him in the distance.
And then they hear the shotguncock and like have to like jump
out of the way.
That whole scene, what, whatwas Michael's angle, like, what
was?
Was he like grooving on thefear, like I don't, I don't get
(33:45):
what was happening, that Michaelkept going.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Well, the grooving on the fearis is is reasonable, like you
know, because if he senses thefear of the people in the house,
like the thing that I wasthinking as it was happening was
like, well, he is invulnerable.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah, and he has no fear.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Yeah, so he has no fear of his physical safety
anyway.
The other thing that I foundinteresting this time around was
like when he jumps over the carwith her which is an amazing
scene and I am so resentful thatit's Michael but then also with
(34:27):
the shotgun, when he grabs herand and and he protects her the
way Lucifer would in both ofthose scenes.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Well, he needs her to believe that he's Lucifer.
Yeah, in order to break, tobreak his life, to break
Lucifer's life the way that hewants to.
So that makes a certain amountof sense.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
It does.
It's the, the lack ofhesitation, it's like there's
there's no question, it's justlike an immediate like.
And that's that's where I waslike that's interesting, what's
going on here?
And I don't know.
I mean it's.
This is me overthinking it.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, so the scene where she reveals him.
You know where she shoots him.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
It's like you know this doesn't hurt me.
It's like, yeah, but it's maybefeel better.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Feel better, and then , to prove that he's not like
that, who he is, he shows herhis wings.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, these look like Lucifer'swings.
Yeah, and even that, actuallythinking of the symbolism and
the twinning, right, lucifer haslike bright white wings and
(35:38):
Michael's wings are like graydark, which is sort of
interesting in terms oftraditional symbolism, right.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
It's interesting also because, like that dark gray is
like in some ways, the color offear, like I.
You know, if fear had a color,the idea that desire could be
like bright, bright, isinteresting, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yeah, cool, all right .
Well, we've been talking for along minute now, so do you have
any fluff you want to lay on us?
Speaker 3 (36:20):
I got two pieces of fluff, okay.
The first is that Linda looksamazing in these episodes.
Like she's just gorgeous, Ialso.
I mean, she's also the kind ofmom that drove me nuts when I,
my kids, were babies.
It's completely understandableand like forgivable and all of
(36:42):
that, but it's also just likecalm down, calm down.
Another like very small thingElla has to do some.
Like it's thankless what AmyGarcia has to do, that she has
to give exposition.
It's like, yeah, sometimes Ireally like that.
Boys like that, that exposition.
(37:04):
And then also the fact that shehad to define STEM.
Like did someone at Netflix saylike, oh, people aren't going
to know what STEM means?
Like, just let's go with it, wecan Google it.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, yeah, I thought it stuck out to me as well,
that stuck out so well.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah.
And just like poor Amy Garcia.
So that's one.
Like Linda looks amazing andyeah, and then poor Amy.
Then the other is how Tom Ellissuch a good actor that he can
make his ass look unattractivewhen he's Michael.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, it's really funny.
And he's not doing the shoulderthing, then no, he is.
Well, I mean only slightly.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
It's not that like.
There's the time where I was insilhouette where it's real
obvious and it's because he'slike relaxing after having to be
Lucifer all day, Like when he'spretending in the mirror he's,
it's more a little bit.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, it's funny because I remember the first
time I was watching I was likewhat is?
Why is he standing like that?
What's wrong with his arm?
What's wrong with his back?
Like it was enough that I?
Speaker 3 (38:16):
you know, maybe I study Tom's back more than I was
able to like something that aregoing like.
I do not want to be looking atthis.
There's a normal way I still do.
That's what I'm looking at.
I'm not saying A passport oranything.
Yeah, yeah, but it's not likeyou know in previous iterations
(38:40):
or I've been like can we makethis last three or four minutes
longer?
It's just like it's entirelyacting.
How do ask he's act?
I don't know.
Those are, those are my flaws.
(39:01):
I wish I had something reallygood, I am wondering how many
pianos Lucifer goes through in ayear.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Yeah, I mean, that's not fluff, like that's legit.
Why didn't he take her?
All she wanted for the pastfive years was to go back, yeah.
And then and she'd just beendumped Like, yeah, take the poor
girl home.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
Yeah, she, I know, on the like, the like discussion
boards about Lucifer, people getreally mad at May's because,
you know, every season shebetrays Lucifer or her friends
and it's, like you know, I feellike they did reasonable
character work in, like in everyseason.
(39:55):
It is completely understandablewhy she does what she does and
this one is like the mostcomprehensible.
And then the way that she istrying to use Chloe to fill all
of the, the emptiness that, likeyou know, because she's she's
missing Eve.
Then, like Lucifer, her, herbest and oldest friend, has
(40:16):
basically abandoned her yeah,abandoned, completely abandoned
her, and she's stuck here.
And then when she she puts themove on Chloe, like that also
makes sense because that's theonly way she knows how to be
close to people.
Mm, hmm, yep, and so, yeah,yeah, yeah, who?
(40:37):
Amazed?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, I don't want to end there.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
I don't want to end there.
Oh, I got.
I got another like little leafA menadil in the first episode,
wearing that three piece suit.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Facebook just told me I wanted to be websites top
fans.
Hi TV oh man, that's a goodplace to add it.
Yes, all right, we overthink itenough for one day.
We overthink it so much today,I will see you, I don't know
(41:21):
whenever we're able to do thisagain.
Yeah, the goal is next weekAbout that.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin
McLeod from Incompetentcom,Licensed under Creative Commons
by attribution 4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(41:56):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
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