March 28, 2024 • 50 mins
The layers of meta-commentary in the episode about a TV show where the actual devil is a consultant with the LAPD is lots of fun, and has the sisters wondering if Lucifer would have been more offended on Chloe’s behalf by turning her character into a stripper-turned-detective who doesn’t seem to be particularly bright.
And the return of Lilith in a 1946 black-and-white mystery episode invites some exploration of the mythology of Lilith, the first human woman who became a monster. The Egyptomania and Orientalism in the same episode lead to a long tangent about the ways in which humans tend to ascribe literal magic to anything they don’t fully understand (e.g. Ancient Egyptian mummies in the early 20th century, computers in the 1990s, or bitcoin in the last 10 years).
As always there’s some breathless appreciation of the beauty of this cast (Tracie admits Tom Ellis is her sexual orientation) and the evidence of their skill when the same actor plays different characters.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen, it'strue.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are doing Lightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we are overthinking it, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Totally overthinking it.
And so today we're overthinking503 and 504, diablo, and it
never ends well for the chicken.
So, and these are actually it'sreally interesting that they
ended up paired for us, becausethey're an interesting pair in
terms of, like, the writers kindof playing with the conventions
(01:03):
of the show and twisting it alittle bit, which is kind of fun
.
So should we start with?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Diablo yes, let's start with Diablo.
I would like to say and nothingto that actor, but the guy they
chose to play Diablo, is noteven remotely handsome.
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
He's not the blonde, it just looks stupid.
Yeah, like bro-y, like yeah,lucifer's not bro-y, he's not
bro-y.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, so I.
The character they've createdis kind of fun, yes, but the
actor I'm like.
Why would they choose him?
But then they were going toreplace him with iced tea.
Well, and why would they choosehim?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
But then they were going to replace him with a with
iced tea.
So well, and also, like I meanlike they were both like sort of
super caricaturized, becauseyou know the Christie dancer,
that actress also doesn't lookany like no, except that she's
blonde.
But so I think it was, it was,it was intentional, I'm sure.
(02:04):
I'm sure, I'm sure One thingthat was interesting like naming
that that we never learned theactor's name.
They refer to him as Diablo thewhole time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And they refer to the actress playing dancer as
dancer the whole time.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I mean, at the end, when Chloe's talking to the
dancer actor, she says the actorwho played diablo, but they
never say his name, which isreally interesting that they
chose not to name them,especially since it was like a
like a weird sort of metaepisode.
Meta episode, like they didn'twant us to be thinking about tom
(02:38):
ellis and lauren german.
They wanted us to stay incharacter, but they did want to
talk about the fact that it wasa tv show.
So I found that like aninteresting detail.
Um, and we had the names ofboth of the showrunners and the
dead guy.
Was that actually joe, or didthey just?
Is it somebody who just lookslike joe henderson?
(02:59):
I don't know.
I didn't even think of thatBecause I know Joe shows like he
makes a cameo in season six asone of the prisoners.
We'll get to it.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And Ildi has made a cameo before, when Amenadiel is
trying to make friends and she'styping in a cafe and he like
freaks her out.
Then he like freaks her out.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah.
So I don't know if that wasactually Joe Henderson, but like
bald dude beard, likeshowrunner, yeah yeah, so I
don't know, it was sort ofinteresting.
Some of the meta aspects of itI found really really
interesting and and just fun,which is the point I mean.
This was, it was like thisseason was almost like a gift
(03:45):
because they had been canceledand they moved over to Netflix
and then are they going to getanother?
Can you know are they going toget another season or not?
And blah, blah, blah.
So, yeah, I thought that was,um, that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, there's definitely, um, some fan service
.
Yes, so the other thing that wasinteresting, too, was the fact
that the way that Dancer ChristyDancer was portrayed was that
she was a bumbling idiot, justbeautiful and eye-candy, and
(04:16):
that is very much not howLucifer would have described
Chloe Decker, and so it'scurious that that is the
direction the TV show went, and,if I could overthink it for a
moment, I do feel like some ofthis was pointed commentary from
(04:39):
the showrunners about how itfelt to be on Fox and so, like
the fact that they wanted like Idon't know for sure, but my
suspicion is they wanted a lovetriangle in season three, and so
they were kind of making Chloelook different than how they had
imagined her, with the way thatshe reacted to Pierce and
(05:01):
things like that.
That's very much a guess on mypart, but there were things that
the showrunners did in seasonthree only at the insistence of
Fox executives, and so I havewondered if that you know, the
fact that the Chloe character inDiablo was an idiot and like
(05:23):
had been a dance like a poledancer was hyper sexualized.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
yeah, she wasn't, just was.
I mean like like chloe did takeher top off in a movie as a
young person, but like christyis, she's a stripper.
And like the only one of theonly lines of dialogue we
actually see her deliver is I'llpolish your bugle anytime.
Yeah, so yeah, or or throughLucifer and I put my bra back on
(05:51):
.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, and that's that is one notethat I feel like is a little
bit off, in that Lucifer is likeoh, wow, this show is pretty
cool, and I feel like he wouldbe.
I think you would be offendedon her part.
Offended on her part.
Well, on her behalf, I mean onher behalf, yeah, or at least be
(06:15):
like wow, this isn't you at all, you know, or something like
that, you know maybe, maybe,although he's such a narcissist
and he was so enjoying theDiablo representation of him,
yeah, he might have.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Like it doesn't feel wildly out of character that he
wouldn't, you know, especiallysince he's feeling like things
aren't going the way they hewants them to in their reunion.
So I don't think you're wrong,but I also don't think it's like
there have been other momentswhere we're like that wouldn't
(06:51):
have happened.
I'm not feeling that.
True, true.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, the moment where he and Dan and then Ella
are like they have this scriptin their play.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Well, that actually is really interesting in that
Lucifer takes on the role ofChristy in that American accent
that sounds like Michael and hasDan do Diablo.
Like that's weird, isn't it?
Yeah, because he was sonarcissistically into it.
Wouldn't he want to play thecharacter that was him?
Yeah, I don't knownarcissistically into it,
(07:26):
wouldn't he want to play thecharacter that was him?
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, you know the other thing that
I feel like is a little not likenot miss the mark, but like not
bullseye is I know it is theshow convention that Lucifer
sees himself in the in the inthe case of the week, and like
thinks that there's some insightthat he can gain.
(07:48):
And this time it's Chloe andlike it's been Chloe because it
was Michael and whatever thematch of the actress playing
Christy dancer being controlledor being there only at the
service of the diablo characterlike just doesn't feel no,
(08:12):
aligned enough for chloe toactually put any weight in it,
especially since we know thatchloe is a former actor.
you know, like that part, I justit didn't it didn't mesh her
disappointment when she says toLucifer I thought I had found
(08:33):
someone who could help meprocess this.
That's not the word she uses,um, and, but I was wrong.
Like I just don't believe thatshe would have put so much stock
in what that actress would haveto say about having worked on
this show.
Yeah, so that did feel a little.
(08:56):
I mean, it fit the conventionof the show, sure, but it didn't
fit what I know about thecharacter of Chloe Decker.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, fit what I know about the character of Chloe
Decker.
Yeah, well, it's also.
She is in a life alteringsituation.
She was not supposed to existand was created for a specific
purpose.
She's having a literalexistential crisis, exactly, and
(09:28):
the woman playing ChristyDancer was stuck in a show with
a contract she didn't like.
Yeah, and I completelycomprehend how that can make
someone feel powerless.
If you feel like you're stuckin a career situation, I don't
comprehend killing people overit, but I can.
(09:49):
I can understand, like those,that sense of feeling trapped
and that sense of feeling likeyou don't have any control.
But there are ways out.
Yeah, always you know, there'salways contracts all the time,
all the time, and so, like Iknow, her feeling is like well,
if I break this contract, mycareer is over, which, again, I,
I can't.
I kind of have a comprehensionthat hollywood is like that,
(10:13):
where you know, if you aresomeone who ends up breaking a
contract, that's that's going tobe a black mark on your no, if
we overthink it, she was.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
The thing she was excited about was an indie film.
Yeah, it wasn't a wb, I mean,it wasn't a warner brothers
project.
It was a yeah she names it asan indie, a small indie film.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So if we're I mean if we're overthinking it, yeah,
but then again, like it's alsolike I can imagine, warner
brothers is among, like, the topthree or four people or
entities you don't want to pissoff.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, so, um, I also can't imagine killing someone
over a job.
No, no, I mean thankfully.
Thankfully, I'm glad.
I can't imagine that it feelslike a like a solid, like a one
for Tracy.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I don't know, like it's yes, but it's not something
we'd put on your tombstone.
No, it's a pretty low bar, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Agreed.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Agreed.
So I would like to talk aboutthe fight scene between Lucifer
and Michael, just because I haveno idea how they did it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I have no idea how they did it.
I think CG must be involved tochange one of the actors' faces,
like one of the fighter's faces.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Also, Tom must have been acting against like acted
it twice against a differentstuntman or whatever.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
It's also like what a testament, what a fantastic actor he is
physically, that like.
I believe that that is adifferent person and I'm like,
(11:57):
you know, like Tom Ellis is mysexual orientation, but as
Michael, like as Michael, I'mlike, no, I'm like it's funny
hard pass, but it's the same man.
It's the same man.
How is that possible?
I know he's just so good, he'sso good, I mean it's so.
(12:18):
I think I've probably said thisbefore.
Um, I don't know if I've saidit on the show or not, but I
remember when ellis was up likenominated for an award for like
best villain for some tv showawards ceremony and I was like
lucifer is not a villain andthen I was like, oh wait,
michael oh my goodness, oh yeah,something like it's partially
(12:46):
costuming, like something abouta turtleneck and blazers, just
really not appealing not okay,yeah, so I think that's, that's
part of it, but it's not justthere's.
he holds his face in it in insuch a way that it makes those
same features just deeplyunattractive.
It's really, really fascinatingto me, he, he it's amazing to
(13:11):
me that it's.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
It's deeply upsetting seeing Michael on screen and
like and I think some of it hasto do with the fact that I
recognize like that is the sameactor, like I find him so
unappealing.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I mean, it's so much so that, like some you
know, I follow all these TomEllis fan stuff on social media
and every once in a while onewill come through and it'll be
like Lucifer Morningstar andit's a picture of Ellis, but
like with dark wings, and I'mlike that is Michael.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Get.
Get that off of my timeline.
Lucifer has white wings and youneed to get it right.
Get it right.
It strikes me Well.
No, I guess it makes sense.
It's like the fact that this isthe first time that Lucifer is
like all right, I'm going tomark you so that no one can
mistake you for me again.
And I was like how is that thefirst time that this has
occurred to him?
And you know however many?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
millennia.
It only occurred to him becauseMaze's blade was right there.
It was really.
It was really like a moment ofopportunity and not planning
yeah, a different blade wouldn'twork, that's true, right.
I'm sure they had to be a demonand bloody to one another.
But work.
That's true, right, I'm surethey have to be a demon and
bloody to one another, but ithas to be like the right, like
(14:28):
you know, a celestial blade ofsomething, yeah, so that makes
sense.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I also I'm thinking he's more pissed at Michael now
than he's ever been in his life.
I'm thinking, um, he's tryingto like screw things up with, uh
, with Chloe, potentiallyputting Chloe in danger, like
all the things that he caresmost deeply about.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So, yeah.
Um, I do want to talk about, uh,maze and Lucifer's fight
because, uh, it directly leadsinto never ends well for the
chicken.
It directly leads into neverends well for the chicken.
So we had talked about our lastepisode.
How, like, oh my goodness, howcould he not take maze with him?
(15:12):
Right, and it occurred to meafter we recorded that first,
since Linda had just had Charlieum and Charlie was was in
danger, would Maze have left her, Even if Lucifer said hey, I'm
(15:32):
going back, Do you want to comewith me?
Um, which Lucifer still shouldhave done, but he also wasn't a
bit of a hurry, which like togive him, to be as empathetic to
him as possible.
I imagine he had to do itquickly before he lost his nerve
.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Also with the nature of time, the long like a few
minutes here.
Yes, yes, few years down there,or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And then the fact that when he and maze fight with
each other in this episode andhe says to her you're not my
servant anymore, I'm letting youlive your life, that is also
like a very.
That's a valid point.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That was actually that I've had forgotten that.
That was the reason that hegave, obviously when we recorded
last time and I actually foundthat very endearing of him
because his treatment of mazethroughout is like very
problematic, yeah, through upuntil this point and that felt
like the most, actually the mosthe's seen her as an equal and
(16:41):
the most like Open heartedconnection with her, even though
she felt abandoned.
That we've heard him kind ofexpress not as like convenience
but as genuine sort of respectfor her agency, like I don't
feel like she's, and that'sthat's part of what's so hard
(17:04):
for her is she's never actuallyhad agency.
Well, and he also he sucks atcommunicating, like he didn't
say that to her.
If he'd said like hey, that'spart of.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What's so hard for her is she's never actually had
agency.
Well, and he also.
He sucks at communicating Likehe didn't say that to her, If
he'd said like hey, you're notmy servant anymore, so I have to
go um, you know, but you, youneed to live whatever life you
need to live, and I'd love tosee you.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
but have a minute deal, he can bring you down.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, yeah, deal, he can bring you down.
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Yeah, yeah, um, it's the factthat he didn't say anything.
He could have freaking textedher yeah, yeah, text before you.
Uh, before he scarpered, solike.
But that actually, that all itall fits and is, I feel, like,
well written, in that it allfits with the character, with
the characters, so, um, that shewould feel abandoned and that
(17:47):
he is being he's attempting to.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
He's attempting to be respectful of her choices.
Yeah yeah, or make, allow herto make her own choices, or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes, yeah and then I mean when he's like amenity, all
his wings he could have takenyou down was reasonable, but
also like in that kind of anunfair thing, to say yeah, but
he could have texted her like,hey, I'm heading, I'm heading.
Do you want to come home?
I'm going to deal, have a manto deal, bring you.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It does sort of make herabandonment her fault.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's yeah.
Well, let's get into.
It never ends well for thechicken.
Okay, I love that episode somuch.
I love it so much.
First of all, I love Trixie andLucifer.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
She's adorable.
I'm like, yeah, theirrelationship is adorable and I
think she's really like grown up, like lovely I mean the six or
seven year old that they castlike now at whatever 12 or 13
she's just she's pulling it offyeah, yeah, she's, yeah well,
(18:58):
and it's tough because withchild actors you never know yeah
she does a great job.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
She also like they do I feel like they do a good job
of she's a little old to be like, hey, let's have a story.
But then the fact that this waspredetermined with uh, with me,
that makes it make like it justit makes so much sense.
(19:28):
Yeah, um, and then luc hermotherhood Like she was a shitty
mother, very, very, very shittymother.
But when she's talking toLucifer and saying, like he
asked, do you want me to bringthem, bring your children up to
(19:50):
say goodbye?
And she's like no, they'reperfect as they are.
There is kind of a fiercematernal pride in that and it's
understandable why she did whatshe did.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
It's her trauma response yeah, trying to make
sure that they don't go throughthe trauma she went through.
Yeah, and so instead subjectsthem to's her trauma response
yeah, trying to make sure thatthey don't go through the trauma
she went through.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, and so instead subjects them to a different
trauma, different trauma, yeah,which I mean that's so common.
That's how trauma works,unfortunately.
Yeah, and so it's.
You can be so much moresympathetic once you understand
that, but as her child there'dbe no way of understanding that
or getting to that moment ofsympathy, like it's just.
(20:34):
It's just tragic and it also.
The thing that I found reallyinteresting is Leslie Ann Brandt
plays Lilith, but it's anotherone where, like, I never thought
of her as Maze during that.
The 1946 sequence and the waythat she and lucifer interact is
very different and some of itis, I feel, like he sees lilith
(20:57):
more as an equal, totally,completely agree, and some of
that is, I mean, they've bothbeen around forever, I guess I
mean like not forever close toit close to he's older than she,
but not by much.
I mean in the scheme of thecosmos not by much, yeah, and so
the fact that he wears the ringbecause it reminds him of a
(21:22):
friend is awfully endearing.
It's also so upsetting onMaze's part.
You know, he's got somethingthat of her mother's, that she
has no way of knowing about.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
And every day she sees it.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, and she would, presumably would have noticed
when it showed up on his hands.
Oh, that's a good point,because her relationship with
him would have predated 1946yeah, yeah yeah, that's a good
point.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So while we're overthinking this episode,
you're gonna get into the stuffI don't want to think about.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, I, I, I will avoid that, but no, no, we can
talk about it.
Well, like the, what he owesher for is his army of demons,
and we've talked about the factthat, like in Jewish a prokofar,
(22:25):
you know, the sort of Jewishsources indicate that he is the
father of those children,although some sources say
perhaps it is sleeping human men.
The fact that she has the powerto imbue her immortality into a
inanimate object, what well, sowhat does?
(22:46):
Okay, inanimate object.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
What Well?
So what does?
Okay?
What is the story of her?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
creation Cause.
I know, okay, god createdhumans, male and female, created
he them?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Okay, and that's all we have Hashem took clay, turn
this play into human beings.
That's uh, because that's thatis said specifically of adam,
though like what once we getthis.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
So that is the assumption of later literature
is that they were both createdfrom the same clay at the same
time.
Okay, um, I mean, and like lasttime we talked about Lilith,
you asked about the etymology ofthe name and I didn't know.
So I've done a little bit ofresearch, not a lot.
There's a lot out there andthere's apparently there's some
disagreement, but it's seems tobe related to other
(23:43):
proto-Semitic languages likeAcadian, where there were I'm
going to probably pronounce itwrong because I've only read it,
I haven't heard anybody say itbut like, uh, lelu or Lilit, um,
that was like a night demon andeven in the Hebrew, or the way
it's written, um, it's lookslike it may be related to the
(24:05):
word Lila, which is night, solike night bird or night demon.
In fact there's, and then, atdifferent points in the hebrew
scriptures, like in the prophets, there'll be like a list of
monsters, monsters, and lilithor lilith will be one of the
lists of monsters.
So there's certainly like powerascribed to her after the she
(24:28):
leaves the garden.
At least from the little sortof surface research that I did,
some of that power is assumed tobe because she consorted with
the devil.
So because she actually wasokay, yeah, but that's where the
power came from.
Yeah, I, I have that.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
She, yeah, so anyway, but even okay, okay, let me,
let me, let me give.
Let me give you my idea.
Okay, so God created Adam andLilith out of clay and breathed
life into them.
Like, that is how it'sdescribed.
Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished.
Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished.
(25:06):
Yeah, before Eve is created, wegot the whole, uh, fruit of the
tree of knowledge, which is thepoint at which Adam and Eve are
banished and they are mademortal as part of their
banishment.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So, based on this, Lilith still had the breath of
Hashem within her, but how didshe have the control to breathe?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
just it out?
I'm not.
I'm actually not, like I'm notquestioning the immortality'm
questioning the control of, like, taking it out and then imbuing
it into the ring.
How did what?
(26:03):
What?
And my next overthinking, whichis totally because they didn't
know that that's what the ringwas, but the fact that he had
the ring on the couple of timesthat he's died, he wouldn't have
(26:24):
died, or he came back becausethe ring, not because of the
other efforts to save him, likein the first season when Malcolm
kills him.
Yeah, and in the second seasonwhen he goes to hell so that he
could go get the formula for theantidote, like or even like
this, the one where in the inLux he gets shot, oh yeah, yeah,
(26:46):
like he had the ring on allthree times and it doesn't make
her invulnerable but it doesmake her immortal.
One presumes, I'm presuming,yeah, I mean, maybe it does
actually make her invulnerablebecause the gertie, the yeah,
(27:07):
she said you were shot six timesyeah.
And she survived the volcano.
She didn't talk about it theway that Kane had talked about
surviving the volcano.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a tough six
months, yeah, well.
And the way that Lucifer provedit proved that it didn't work.
Was he shot Willie the SausageKing in the foot, which you know
is?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Well, the ring wasn't hadn't been imbued yet, so it
didn't.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
No, no, no, yes, but what I'm saying is oh, he proved
that it didn't work.
He proved that it didn't workby doing that.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
So presumably it did make her invulnerable.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So there's some inconsistencies here if you look
a little closer.
So, and it's going to come upagain in six.
The ring is so yeah, I don'tknow, but I like those those
things about lilith and uh andthe ring, like I mean it was fun
(28:05):
, the black and white.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
White Gate and the Four E's.
I love this episode.
I think it's fantastic.
I love the backstory for thering, even though it does create
some plot holes and somecontinuity issues.
I'm more than happy to handwave away the plot holes and I'm
willing to have it be like theimmortality in the ring has to
(28:28):
be chosen, to be activated orsomething I I actually I don't
think that's going to carry usin season in six when it works,
because, oh yeah, because hedoesn't, it surprises him.
Yeah, it's true, I mean we'llget there, we'll get there so I
don't know, in part because thethe ring is part of Lucifer's
(28:51):
wardrobe because of Tom Ellis,If I remember correctly.
I think they had him all kittedup for it.
He's like need something and hepicked out the ring from
wardrobe's promise or something.
And there's the very first timewe meet him, we see him tapping
his fingers's the the the veryfirst time we meet him, we see
him like tapping his fingers onthe uh, on the steering wheel,
(29:12):
at the very first episode.
And we see, see, that ring.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
And it was just kind of not a throwaway, but it was
just just something that youknow completes the look, and
here we have this lovelybackstory.
That's fits character.
Wise yeah, even if it createsplot holes.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
So I also want to talk about Jack and Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, the episode right Because we've talked
before about how there seems tobe, yeah, anxiety about the idea
of being lied into friendship.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Right, Like I.
I feel like I mean, it's notjust this show, right.
I think that, like justHollywood had me thinking that
people being paid to be myfriend would be like a much
bigger problem than it hasturned out to be, or maybe I
just don't know and I knowrevealed that people are being
paid to be my friend.
I don't know, but actually thatwith what's going on in this
(30:16):
sort of overarching story, withChloe realizing that she was a
gift, it has a different sort ofresonance than it has in the
past.
And in this show, Chloe washurt badly when she realized
that, you know, the maze and theand the other I think it was
just maze were being her friend.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, and she assumed it was, it was everyone,
because I think it was just mazewere being her friend, well,
and she assumed it was, it waseveryone because because lucifer
was paying them too orsomething.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
So that sort of sense that someone would be only
likes you because they are paidto or have to in some way, yeah
and then, and then the sort ofoverarching story about her
being a gift, like adds an extralayer to it, like the question
of like is this real?
(31:03):
Which you and I have talkedabout a lot because of this show
, because the same plot device,actually, where lucifer was like
I thought it was real and now Idon't think it's like sort of
the criteria for what is realand what isn't when it comes to
relationships and emotion and,you know, affinity and affection
(31:25):
.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I have had that thought as a parent in some ways
.
And so my eldest, his favoritecolor, from the time he was like
a year and a half old, was red,like just loved red.
And so he went through a periodwhen he was like two where he
insisted on wearing a red shirt.
Every day he had to wear a redshirt.
(31:49):
So I was like, please do notjoin Starfleet.
So when his little brother camealong, I found it a lot easier
to color code things so I couldquickly know whose was what, and
so I signed my youngest thecolor of blue, just for easy
color coding.
My youngest favorite color isblue and I'm not saying I feel
(32:12):
guilty, but I feel a littleweird about it because I'm just
like did you actually like thecolor blue or was it assigned to
you?
And like it doesn't matter, itreally doesn't, you know it's,
it's a color.
But I've had similar, similarthoughts about the youngest has
expressed interest in art and uh, like we went on vacation and I
(32:32):
let him use my, my phone totake pictures and we realized he
has a very good eye, which Itold him and then he told
everyone.
So he was, uh, he was eight atthe time and you know we'd see
other people who were, you know,trying to take pictures like oh
, I can take it for you, I havea good eye, I have a better eye
than most people anyway, butbecause of that I have been, you
(32:55):
know, I buy art related, likeart supplies for for birthday
gifts and supplies for birthdaygifts and am encouraging him to
really enjoy and explore that.
Again, it's not that I feelguilty, but I sometimes feel a
little weird about it becauseit's just like how much of this
is him and how much of this isme, and does it matter?
Obviously, creating a humanbeing for my child is different,
(33:20):
but there is, there is some ofthat too, like there are forces
working in your life that areintentional decisions by other
people that you don't havecontrol over, that do end up
creating paths in your life thatyou might not otherwise be
(33:41):
taking, and that doesn'tnecessarily mean that it's a bad
thing, but it's.
It's an interesting questionbecause I know that I like
thinking back on my childhood.
There are things that I'm likewould I have chosen that if I
had been raised in a differentfamily?
And I don't know, and sometimesthat makes me a little
(34:02):
frustrated, particularly withthe Jack and Shirley situation.
What's interesting is thatJack's sergeant, or you know,
the, the, his army buddy, the,but who is his captain, his
commanding captain, captain,specifically hired Shirley to
(34:25):
help Jack get over his, uh, hisPTSD.
Well, it's shell shock is whatthey called it at the time which
I mean, is actually very in inkeeping with like how 1940s
people would think of things.
Absolutely, and obviously Jackis not over his trauma, but what
(34:48):
the captain was doing wasactually really trying to be a
good friend and how he wentabout it was weird and heavy
handed and and kind of gross.
But surely was someone thatJack would like.
Yeah, and I.
(35:09):
I looked it up cause, uh, youknow, I'm, I'm, I work in
financial media and I was like,so how much is $20 from in the
1940s?
It's a $300.
Oh, wow, so, um, and then thatthe, the $12 for the uh, um, the
Anubis um ritual, is 180.
(35:31):
Oh so it's real money, realmoney, yeah, which makes sense,
and I'm you, you know can wetalk about the anubis?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
yes, it is bizarre to me that the wiener king or
whatever he was, prince thoughtthat like this ancient egyptian
thing would work on for lilith'sring.
Like they're two differentmythologies.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
She's not known to be wait, so it's what would they
call Did they call it the ringof Lilith.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Ring of Lilith, okay, hmm, I mean they, they were
saying they.
I mean she went by Lily Rosebut they called it the ring of
Lilith.
And, um, cause, cause that.
I mean she went by Lily Rosebut they called it the Ring of
Lilith.
And because that's what DBWoodside, as Melvin the
Magnificent, is like, do youhave a Ring of Lilith?
Because I have many customerswho would pay for a passing ring
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(36:29):
So they called it the Ring ofLilith.
But then they were doing thisancient Egyptian which is like,
if I'm overthinking it, it is aninteresting statement about
human mythology, all actuallysort of like in a bahá'í kind of
way, like the bahá'í faithbelieves that we all are
actually talking about the samegod.
God just reveals themselvesdifferently to different people.
(36:50):
Um, in that sort of like ideaof cosmology well, I, I do feel
like it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Also, it fits with a very american othering of of any
culture that is that theyaren't familiar with.
So, like the oh gosh, when wastutankhamen's?
Uh, in the 20s, it was the 20s,yeah, wasn't it?
So?
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
So egypt was like I'm sure still like wow, this is
really cool and big and let'sunwrap a mummy and and right
right, and 20 years later, yeah,yeah yeah, and so that would be
an orientalism of the time andyeah, yes, yeah um, in the same
way, white people would likeunwrap a mummy and like make tea
out of the dressing yes, well,and they'd have parties where
(37:40):
they'd like.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Which?
Speaker 3 (37:43):
is wrong with us.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I don't know, I know well, and it's yeah, yeah, um,
even the idea like, let's lookat somebody's body like I know
it's a grave.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I like yeah, but but don't worry, it's a foreign body
, it's not real.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
It's not one of us, aunt margaret.
It does remind me a little bitof, if you remember, movies in
the 1990s seemed to think thatcomputers were magic.
I feel like in our imaginationwe as humans like latch on to
something, like, oh, that'ssomething I don't understand, so
it must be able to do anythingI can think of.
(38:31):
And so you know, we livedthrough the magic of computers
in the 1990s where we just like,yes, two boys, could you know,
put in pictures of hot womeninto a computer and it will
manifest.
What is that?
One thing, kelly LeBrock, theword science was in the actual
(38:56):
title of that movie.
The word science was in theactual title of that movie,
which, okay, that I think theyknew.
Like, okay, yeah, this is justridiculous.
We just want to.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I think that was sort of like Hot Tub Time Machine.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yes, However, so that was ridiculous.
However, the movie Sneakers.
Do you have any memory of thatmovie?
I do, because the first date Iever went on was to see Sneakers
.
Hey, jared, if you're watching,so in that film.
(39:35):
They are trying to break intosomething and they recognition,
voice recognition saying aspecific phrase like my, my
voice is my passport, orsomething like that.
And so they have.
Uh, there's the, the one.
One woman in the uh, the heistgroup go on a date with the guy
whose voice they need claiming.
Uh, like they hack into acomputer dating site and you
(39:55):
know she's trying to get him tosay all those words, get him to
say all those words.
And then at some point things gowrong and they end up seeing
the guy's boss and the guy'sboss is like oh wow, you guys
are on a date.
And he's like yeah, this is youknow.
Computer dating set us together.
And the guy's boss is likethere is no way, that would
happen.
And at the time it's just likeoh no, they've been caught,
(40:19):
they've been made.
And like now I'm like what?
So that's what I mean.
Like where?
Like computers are magic.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, or like you remember, war games with
Matt Broderick.
Yes, it's like the computer.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
I mean like maybe ai today maybe, but even then
there'd be so many fail-safesyeah, yeah, yeah so to bring it
back to lucifer, um humanimagination always latches on to
whatever newest in the in thezeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Right as like.
So in that sense, the, theEgyptian, the ancient Egyptian,
fits.
Hey, like historically, like,like nice research.
Yeah, yeah On the part of thewriters.
Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, so but, and like it's one of the things that
I find interesting too in that,uh, once you've lived through
this once or twice I have Istruggle to understand the
people who don't recognize itwhen it happens again.
And I'm looking right at youBitcoin and NFT bros, um, now
the ones who are like 20, I'mlike, okay, I'll give it to you.
(41:36):
You haven't lived through this,it's your first time through.
It's your first time, butplease remember this this will
not solve war and poverty andfix the pipes in Flint, michigan
, which are all things peoplehave claimed Bitcoin will do.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
So anyway, but even the 20-somethings.
Can you just stop for a secondand think about, like does this
really fit?
Yeah, so can you.
Can you like you've got aBitcoin?
B question mark C everythingfixed.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
It's like that old far side where, like he's doing
like a math proof, and then itsays and then a miracle happens.
Yes, all right, I'm going tobring us back, because we've
been talking for a while.
We did have a couple of hiccups, but we still.
We've been on for a long minute.
So I think I'm going to ask us,unless you have anything else
substantive.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
No, I don't think I have any any other substantive.
I just could you know,appreciation post for, for it
never ends well for the chicken.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Uh well, let's do some fluff, let's do some fluff.
So my fluff, my appreciationpost from and fluff from from,
never ends.
Well, for the chicken is Leslieand Brant's like upper chest
and they follow Taj.
Like her, her collarbones andlike her skin is like perfect
(43:00):
and I know she gets black andwhite and she's a professional
actor and she had professionalmakeup artists there but like it
was like like silk over overcollarbones and I just was like
and her neck like it was alljust like like the woman has
never had skin tag.
(43:21):
Wow, I know Like, and she'swearing that dress that comes
really, really low, so she'slike.
So you see, like a big expanseof it and it's just she is just
amazing.
Yeah, so that's my, my fluff.
I just was like, yeah, reallylike mesmerized by just how
gorgeous her skin.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And those dresses are just amazing.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Also Rachel Harris's hair.
Oh gosh as Gertie.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yes, awesome, I love her, I love it.
The dress she's wearing, too,is amazing.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yeah, it's a Chinese style.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, awesome, she glows yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Absolutely, that's pretty great, that's pretty
great.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
My fluff is.
Both Tom Ellis and LaurenGerman look hot as hell in 1940
suits.
They do yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I mean like yeah, lauren German pulls off the the
sort of androgynous look reallyreally well, she, she, yeah, she
rocked it, she rocked it, shereally rocked it.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You and I have talked about how we're not necessarily
fans of her acting choices, butshe sold the Jack character.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I think so too.
Yeah, I believed her as Jack.
I kind of, yeah, I kind of Ilost track of the fact that it
was Lauren German, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
And so I have sometimes wondered if maybe just
the things that we don't likeabout her acting is not a lack
of skill.
It's just the choices.
Maybe yeah, so or or orpossibly bad direction.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, yeah, not for editing director for her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, or possibly bad direction,or not, for editing director for
her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's a good point, cause I, I, all, I felt the same way their
chemistry, jack.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Jack and and and Lucifer's chemistry was also.
It was nice.
I appreciated it.
Yeah, it was very differentfrom their chemistry.
Is Chloe and Lucifer?
Yeah, but yeah, it was verydifferent from their chemistry
as Chloe and Lucifer, but it wasstill just very enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Another piece of fluff at theend of Diablo, when the actress
who plays Christy Dancer is likecomplaining, like I don't want
to stay here, where my main propis a stripper pole, and then
they start tussling and thenit's actually Chloe who uses the
stripper pole to then theystart tussling and then it's
(45:42):
actually chloe who uses thestripper pole to take her down,
and I thought that was a reallynice sort of turnabout, that,
like, even the stripper pole isa, you know, a powerful tool for
doing what you need to do.
We're not in theobjectification of, uh, of the
dancer.
I thought that was really likeit was subtle, yeah yeah I
thought that was a nice littlelike commentary of some of some
(46:06):
sort I don't know exactly what,but yeah, but I like I like yeah
, no it was also sort of meta,the thing.
You know, the character played,the decker character, was saying
I don't want to use this as aprop.
And then decker uses it as aprop, like there's some I don't
know I I like, oh, I didn'tnotice it on in the first time,
but on rewatch for to talk toyou, I was like, oh, chloe used
(46:28):
this triple like kicker, yeahwell, you know it.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Also, there's something kind of cool about, I
feel, feel like it's um, I mean,the show in general is uh, very
non, uh nonjudgmental about um,sex work, um, and it was like
making it clear like this isn't,this doesn't have to be
disempowering, and in the sameway, like in the second episode,
(46:54):
shirley never feels like shehas to apologize for her
profession.
It's just the fact that Jackdidn't know, you know, and so so
I like I appreciated that too,and like, in talking about it,
it's not so much that Jack stilldescribes her as the best thing
that ever happened to him, it'snot that it's not that, no, and
(47:18):
it's actually it is.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
You're exactly right.
It's that he didn't know.
It's not that she used to be acall girl, because he says the
best thing, that the best thingthat ever happened to you, was
based on a lie.
Yes, yeah, so it's not the bestthing that ever happened to you
.
Turns out to be dirty, yes,which is, I think, another way
that it could have been written.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Could have been written.
Yeah, and even like I mean,Jack doesn't like it when
Lucifer is like, oh, think ofall the firemen and all of that
like that.
But that's more of the like.
That's my wife you're talkingabout.
Please stop, you know, ratherthan like ew, it's more just
like I just don't want to thinkabout that because I don't want
to think about, you know, theperson I love in situations like
(47:56):
that, rather than like she's abad person or anything like that
.
Right, Kevin, Alejandro, oh man.
He did such a good job so goodCause he's such a goober here
and like that man is like,remarkably handsome.
(48:17):
He's very handsome, but not inthis episode.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I mean, they do that on purpose, I know like parted
down the middle and the hair andyeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and and
his like I'm too rich to go to.
Yeah, he did a great job, oh mygoodness.
It also felt like he was havingfun which I appreciate.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I love it when you can tell someone to like I feel
like Amy Garcia was having funtoo Agreed.
Agreed Also like when he getsshot in the foot and he goes
down and he goes my stomach.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
And the way he screams.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Oh, and the, the, the line of like.
There's something you remind meof.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I can't put fear on a shower, but French.
I thought that was silly, thatwas just fan service.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
It was just fan service, that was just silly,
but it was fun fan service andI'll take it.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
So but All right.
Well, I'm not going to say I'llsee you next week, because who
knows when?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
we'll get to this again, but I will see you next
time but I will see you nexttime.
Yes, Happy birthday, Thank you.
Our theme song is feral angelwaltz by Kevin McLeod from
incompetentcom, licensed undercreative commons by attribution
4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
(49:35):
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered powered by
Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
(49:56):
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and
she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen, it'strue.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are doing Lightbringers, where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we are overthinking it, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Totally overthinking it.
And so today we're overthinking503 and 504, diablo, and it
never ends well for the chicken.
So, and these are actually it'sreally interesting that they
ended up paired for us, becausethey're an interesting pair in
terms of, like, the writers kindof playing with the conventions
(01:03):
of the show and twisting it alittle bit, which is kind of fun
.
So should we start with?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Diablo yes, let's start with Diablo.
I would like to say and nothingto that actor, but the guy they
chose to play Diablo, is noteven remotely handsome.
Agreed.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
He's not the blonde, it just looks stupid.
Yeah, like bro-y, like yeah,lucifer's not bro-y, he's not
bro-y.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, so I.
The character they've createdis kind of fun, yes, but the
actor I'm like.
Why would they choose him?
But then they were going toreplace him with iced tea.
Well, and why would they choosehim?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
But then they were going to replace him with a with
iced tea.
So well, and also, like I meanlike they were both like sort of
super caricaturized, becauseyou know the Christie dancer,
that actress also doesn't lookany like no, except that she's
blonde.
But so I think it was, it was,it was intentional, I'm sure.
(02:04):
I'm sure, I'm sure One thingthat was interesting like naming
that that we never learned theactor's name.
They refer to him as Diablo thewhole time.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
And they refer to the actress playing dancer as
dancer the whole time.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
I mean, at the end, when Chloe's talking to the
dancer actor, she says the actorwho played diablo, but they
never say his name, which isreally interesting that they
chose not to name them,especially since it was like a
like a weird sort of metaepisode.
Meta episode, like they didn'twant us to be thinking about tom
(02:38):
ellis and lauren german.
They wanted us to stay incharacter, but they did want to
talk about the fact that it wasa tv show.
So I found that like aninteresting detail.
Um, and we had the names ofboth of the showrunners and the
dead guy.
Was that actually joe, or didthey just?
Is it somebody who just lookslike joe henderson?
(02:59):
I don't know.
I didn't even think of thatBecause I know Joe shows like he
makes a cameo in season six asone of the prisoners.
We'll get to it.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
And Ildi has made a cameo before, when Amenadiel is
trying to make friends and she'styping in a cafe and he like
freaks her out.
Then he like freaks her out.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah.
So I don't know if that wasactually Joe Henderson, but like
bald dude beard, likeshowrunner, yeah yeah, so I
don't know, it was sort ofinteresting.
Some of the meta aspects of itI found really really
interesting and and just fun,which is the point I mean.
This was, it was like thisseason was almost like a gift
(03:45):
because they had been canceledand they moved over to Netflix
and then are they going to getanother?
Can you know are they going toget another season or not?
And blah, blah, blah.
So, yeah, I thought that was,um, that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, there's definitely, um, some fan service
.
Yes, so the other thing that wasinteresting, too, was the fact
that the way that Dancer ChristyDancer was portrayed was that
she was a bumbling idiot, justbeautiful and eye-candy, and
(04:16):
that is very much not howLucifer would have described
Chloe Decker, and so it'scurious that that is the
direction the TV show went, and,if I could overthink it for a
moment, I do feel like some ofthis was pointed commentary from
(04:39):
the showrunners about how itfelt to be on Fox and so, like
the fact that they wanted like Idon't know for sure, but my
suspicion is they wanted a lovetriangle in season three, and so
they were kind of making Chloelook different than how they had
imagined her, with the way thatshe reacted to Pierce and
(05:01):
things like that.
That's very much a guess on mypart, but there were things that
the showrunners did in seasonthree only at the insistence of
Fox executives, and so I havewondered if that you know, the
fact that the Chloe character inDiablo was an idiot and like
(05:23):
had been a dance like a poledancer was hyper sexualized.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
yeah, she wasn't, just was.
I mean like like chloe did takeher top off in a movie as a
young person, but like christyis, she's a stripper.
And like the only one of theonly lines of dialogue we
actually see her deliver is I'llpolish your bugle anytime.
Yeah, so yeah, or or throughLucifer and I put my bra back on
(05:51):
.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, and that's that is one notethat I feel like is a little
bit off, in that Lucifer is likeoh, wow, this show is pretty
cool, and I feel like he wouldbe.
I think you would be offendedon her part.
Offended on her part.
Well, on her behalf, I mean onher behalf, yeah, or at least be
(06:15):
like wow, this isn't you at all, you know, or something like
that, you know maybe, maybe,although he's such a narcissist
and he was so enjoying theDiablo representation of him,
yeah, he might have.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Like it doesn't feel wildly out of character that he
wouldn't, you know, especiallysince he's feeling like things
aren't going the way they hewants them to in their reunion.
So I don't think you're wrong,but I also don't think it's like
there have been other momentswhere we're like that wouldn't
(06:51):
have happened.
I'm not feeling that.
True, true.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yeah, the moment where he and Dan and then Ella
are like they have this scriptin their play.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Well, that actually is really interesting in that
Lucifer takes on the role ofChristy in that American accent
that sounds like Michael and hasDan do Diablo.
Like that's weird, isn't it?
Yeah, because he was sonarcissistically into it.
Wouldn't he want to play thecharacter that was him?
Yeah, I don't knownarcissistically into it,
(07:26):
wouldn't he want to play thecharacter that was him?
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, you know the other thing that
I feel like is a little not likenot miss the mark, but like not
bullseye is I know it is theshow convention that Lucifer
sees himself in the in the inthe case of the week, and like
thinks that there's some insightthat he can gain.
(07:48):
And this time it's Chloe andlike it's been Chloe because it
was Michael and whatever thematch of the actress playing
Christy dancer being controlledor being there only at the
service of the diablo characterlike just doesn't feel no,
(08:12):
aligned enough for chloe toactually put any weight in it,
especially since we know thatchloe is a former actor.
you know, like that part, I justit didn't it didn't mesh her
disappointment when she says toLucifer I thought I had found
(08:33):
someone who could help meprocess this.
That's not the word she uses,um, and, but I was wrong.
Like I just don't believe thatshe would have put so much stock
in what that actress would haveto say about having worked on
this show.
Yeah, so that did feel a little.
(08:56):
I mean, it fit the conventionof the show, sure, but it didn't
fit what I know about thecharacter of Chloe Decker.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, fit what I know about the character of Chloe
Decker.
Yeah, well, it's also.
She is in a life alteringsituation.
She was not supposed to existand was created for a specific
purpose.
She's having a literalexistential crisis, exactly, and
(09:28):
the woman playing ChristyDancer was stuck in a show with
a contract she didn't like.
Yeah, and I completelycomprehend how that can make
someone feel powerless.
If you feel like you're stuckin a career situation, I don't
comprehend killing people overit, but I can.
(09:49):
I can understand, like those,that sense of feeling trapped
and that sense of feeling likeyou don't have any control.
But there are ways out.
Yeah, always you know, there'salways contracts all the time,
all the time, and so, like Iknow, her feeling is like well,
if I break this contract, mycareer is over, which, again, I,
I can't.
I kind of have a comprehensionthat hollywood is like that,
(10:13):
where you know, if you aresomeone who ends up breaking a
contract, that's that's going tobe a black mark on your no, if
we overthink it, she was.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
The thing she was excited about was an indie film.
Yeah, it wasn't a wb, I mean,it wasn't a warner brothers
project.
It was a yeah she names it asan indie, a small indie film.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So if we're I mean if we're overthinking it, yeah,
but then again, like it's alsolike I can imagine, warner
brothers is among, like, the topthree or four people or
entities you don't want to pissoff.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, so, um, I also can't imagine killing someone
over a job.
No, no, I mean thankfully.
Thankfully, I'm glad.
I can't imagine that it feelslike a like a solid, like a one
for Tracy.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
I don't know, like it's yes, but it's not something
we'd put on your tombstone.
No, it's a pretty low bar, yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Agreed.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Agreed.
So I would like to talk aboutthe fight scene between Lucifer
and Michael, just because I haveno idea how they did it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I have no idea how they did it.
I think CG must be involved tochange one of the actors' faces,
like one of the fighter's faces.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Also, Tom must have been acting against like acted
it twice against a differentstuntman or whatever.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
It's also like what a testament, what a fantastic actor he is
physically, that like.
I believe that that is adifferent person and I'm like,
(11:57):
you know, like Tom Ellis is mysexual orientation, but as
Michael, like as Michael, I'mlike, no, I'm like it's funny
hard pass, but it's the same man.
It's the same man.
How is that possible?
I know he's just so good, he'sso good, I mean it's so.
(12:18):
I think I've probably said thisbefore.
Um, I don't know if I've saidit on the show or not, but I
remember when ellis was up likenominated for an award for like
best villain for some tv showawards ceremony and I was like
lucifer is not a villain andthen I was like, oh wait,
michael oh my goodness, oh yeah,something like it's partially
(12:46):
costuming, like something abouta turtleneck and blazers, just
really not appealing not okay,yeah, so I think that's, that's
part of it, but it's not justthere's.
he holds his face in it in insuch a way that it makes those
same features just deeplyunattractive.
It's really, really fascinatingto me, he, he it's amazing to
(13:11):
me that it's.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
It's deeply upsetting seeing Michael on screen and
like and I think some of it hasto do with the fact that I
recognize like that is the sameactor, like I find him so
unappealing.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, I mean, it's so much so that, like some you
know, I follow all these TomEllis fan stuff on social media
and every once in a while onewill come through and it'll be
like Lucifer Morningstar andit's a picture of Ellis, but
like with dark wings, and I'mlike that is Michael.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Get.
Get that off of my timeline.
Lucifer has white wings and youneed to get it right.
Get it right.
It strikes me Well.
No, I guess it makes sense.
It's like the fact that this isthe first time that Lucifer is
like all right, I'm going tomark you so that no one can
mistake you for me again.
And I was like how is that thefirst time that this has
occurred to him?
And you know however many?
Speaker 3 (14:07):
millennia.
It only occurred to him becauseMaze's blade was right there.
It was really.
It was really like a moment ofopportunity and not planning
yeah, a different blade wouldn'twork, that's true, right.
I'm sure they had to be a demonand bloody to one another.
But work.
That's true, right, I'm surethey have to be a demon and
bloody to one another, but ithas to be like the right, like
(14:28):
you know, a celestial blade ofsomething, yeah, so that makes
sense.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I also I'm thinking he's more pissed at Michael now
than he's ever been in his life.
I'm thinking, um, he's tryingto like screw things up with, uh
, with Chloe, potentiallyputting Chloe in danger, like
all the things that he caresmost deeply about.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So, yeah.
Um, I do want to talk about, uh,maze and Lucifer's fight
because, uh, it directly leadsinto never ends well for the
chicken.
It directly leads into neverends well for the chicken.
So we had talked about our lastepisode.
How, like, oh my goodness, howcould he not take maze with him?
(15:12):
Right, and it occurred to meafter we recorded that first,
since Linda had just had Charlieum and Charlie was was in
danger, would Maze have left her, Even if Lucifer said hey, I'm
(15:32):
going back, Do you want to comewith me?
Um, which Lucifer still shouldhave done, but he also wasn't a
bit of a hurry, which like togive him, to be as empathetic to
him as possible.
I imagine he had to do itquickly before he lost his nerve
.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Also with the nature of time, the long like a few
minutes here.
Yes, yes, few years down there,or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
And then the fact that when he and maze fight with
each other in this episode andhe says to her you're not my
servant anymore, I'm letting youlive your life, that is also
like a very.
That's a valid point.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
That was actually that I've had forgotten that.
That was the reason that hegave, obviously when we recorded
last time and I actually foundthat very endearing of him
because his treatment of mazethroughout is like very
problematic, yeah, through upuntil this point and that felt
like the most, actually the mosthe's seen her as an equal and
(16:41):
the most like Open heartedconnection with her, even though
she felt abandoned.
That we've heard him kind ofexpress not as like convenience
but as genuine sort of respectfor her agency, like I don't
feel like she's, and that'sthat's part of what's so hard
(17:04):
for her is she's never actuallyhad agency.
Well, and he also he sucks atcommunicating, like he didn't
say that to her.
If he'd said like hey, that'spart of.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
What's so hard for her is she's never actually had
agency.
Well, and he also.
He sucks at communicating Likehe didn't say that to her, If
he'd said like hey, you're notmy servant anymore, so I have to
go um, you know, but you, youneed to live whatever life you
need to live, and I'd love tosee you.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
but have a minute deal, he can bring you down.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, yeah, deal, he can bring you down.
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
Yeah, yeah, um, it's the factthat he didn't say anything.
He could have freaking textedher yeah, yeah, text before you.
Uh, before he scarpered, solike.
But that actually, that all itall fits and is, I feel, like,
well written, in that it allfits with the character, with
the characters, so, um, that shewould feel abandoned and that
(17:47):
he is being he's attempting to.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
He's attempting to be respectful of her choices.
Yeah yeah, or make, allow herto make her own choices, or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yes, yeah and then I mean when he's like amenity, all
his wings he could have takenyou down was reasonable, but
also like in that kind of anunfair thing, to say yeah, but
he could have texted her like,hey, I'm heading, I'm heading.
Do you want to come home?
I'm going to deal, have a manto deal, bring you.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It does sort of make herabandonment her fault.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's yeah.
Well, let's get into.
It never ends well for thechicken.
Okay, I love that episode somuch.
I love it so much.
First of all, I love Trixie andLucifer.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
She's adorable.
I'm like, yeah, theirrelationship is adorable and I
think she's really like grown up, like lovely I mean the six or
seven year old that they castlike now at whatever 12 or 13
she's just she's pulling it offyeah, yeah, she's, yeah well,
(18:58):
and it's tough because withchild actors you never know yeah
she does a great job.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
She also like they do I feel like they do a good job
of she's a little old to be like, hey, let's have a story.
But then the fact that this waspredetermined with uh, with me,
that makes it make like it justit makes so much sense.
(19:28):
Yeah, um, and then luc hermotherhood Like she was a shitty
mother, very, very, very shittymother.
But when she's talking toLucifer and saying, like he
asked, do you want me to bringthem, bring your children up to
(19:50):
say goodbye?
And she's like no, they'reperfect as they are.
There is kind of a fiercematernal pride in that and it's
understandable why she did whatshe did.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
It's her trauma response yeah, trying to make
sure that they don't go throughthe trauma she went through.
Yeah, and so instead subjectsthem to's her trauma response
yeah, trying to make sure thatthey don't go through the trauma
she went through.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, and so instead subjects them to a different
trauma, different trauma, yeah,which I mean that's so common.
That's how trauma works,unfortunately.
Yeah, and so it's.
You can be so much moresympathetic once you understand
that, but as her child there'dbe no way of understanding that
or getting to that moment ofsympathy, like it's just.
(20:34):
It's just tragic and it also.
The thing that I found reallyinteresting is Leslie Ann Brandt
plays Lilith, but it's anotherone where, like, I never thought
of her as Maze during that.
The 1946 sequence and the waythat she and lucifer interact is
very different and some of itis, I feel, like he sees lilith
(20:57):
more as an equal, totally,completely agree, and some of
that is, I mean, they've bothbeen around forever, I guess I
mean like not forever close toit close to he's older than she,
but not by much.
I mean in the scheme of thecosmos not by much, yeah, and so
the fact that he wears the ringbecause it reminds him of a
(21:22):
friend is awfully endearing.
It's also so upsetting onMaze's part.
You know, he's got somethingthat of her mother's, that she
has no way of knowing about.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
And every day she sees it.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, and she would, presumably would have noticed
when it showed up on his hands.
Oh, that's a good point,because her relationship with
him would have predated 1946yeah, yeah yeah, that's a good
point.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
So while we're overthinking this episode,
you're gonna get into the stuffI don't want to think about.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, I, I, I will avoid that, but no, no, we can
talk about it.
Well, like the, what he owesher for is his army of demons,
and we've talked about the factthat, like in Jewish a prokofar,
(22:25):
you know, the sort of Jewishsources indicate that he is the
father of those children,although some sources say
perhaps it is sleeping human men.
The fact that she has the powerto imbue her immortality into a
inanimate object, what well, sowhat does?
(22:46):
Okay, inanimate object.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
What Well?
So what does?
Okay?
What is the story of her?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
creation Cause.
I know, okay, god createdhumans, male and female, created
he them?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Okay, and that's all we have Hashem took clay, turn
this play into human beings.
That's uh, because that's thatis said specifically of adam,
though like what once we getthis.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
So that is the assumption of later literature
is that they were both createdfrom the same clay at the same
time.
Okay, um, I mean, and like lasttime we talked about Lilith,
you asked about the etymology ofthe name and I didn't know.
So I've done a little bit ofresearch, not a lot.
There's a lot out there andthere's apparently there's some
disagreement, but it's seems tobe related to other
(23:43):
proto-Semitic languages likeAcadian, where there were I'm
going to probably pronounce itwrong because I've only read it,
I haven't heard anybody say itbut like, uh, lelu or Lilit, um,
that was like a night demon andeven in the Hebrew, or the way
it's written, um, it's lookslike it may be related to the
(24:05):
word Lila, which is night, solike night bird or night demon.
In fact there's, and then, atdifferent points in the hebrew
scriptures, like in the prophets, there'll be like a list of
monsters, monsters, and lilithor lilith will be one of the
lists of monsters.
So there's certainly like powerascribed to her after the she
(24:28):
leaves the garden.
At least from the little sortof surface research that I did,
some of that power is assumed tobe because she consorted with
the devil.
So because she actually wasokay, yeah, but that's where the
power came from.
Yeah, I, I have that.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
She, yeah, so anyway, but even okay, okay, let me,
let me, let me give.
Let me give you my idea.
Okay, so God created Adam andLilith out of clay and breathed
life into them.
Like, that is how it'sdescribed.
Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished.
Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished.
(25:06):
Yeah, before Eve is created, wegot the whole, uh, fruit of the
tree of knowledge, which is thepoint at which Adam and Eve are
banished and they are mademortal as part of their
banishment.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
So, based on this, Lilith still had the breath of
Hashem within her, but how didshe have the control to breathe?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
just it out?
I'm not.
I'm actually not, like I'm notquestioning the immortality'm
questioning the control of, like, taking it out and then imbuing
it into the ring.
How did what?
(26:03):
What?
And my next overthinking, whichis totally because they didn't
know that that's what the ringwas, but the fact that he had
the ring on the couple of timesthat he's died, he wouldn't have
(26:24):
died, or he came back becausethe ring, not because of the
other efforts to save him, likein the first season when Malcolm
kills him.
Yeah, and in the second seasonwhen he goes to hell so that he
could go get the formula for theantidote, like or even like
this, the one where in the inLux he gets shot, oh yeah, yeah,
(26:46):
like he had the ring on allthree times and it doesn't make
her invulnerable but it doesmake her immortal.
One presumes, I'm presuming,yeah, I mean, maybe it does
actually make her invulnerablebecause the gertie, the yeah,
(27:07):
she said you were shot six timesyeah.
And she survived the volcano.
She didn't talk about it theway that Kane had talked about
surviving the volcano.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a tough six
months, yeah, well.
And the way that Lucifer provedit proved that it didn't work.
Was he shot Willie the SausageKing in the foot, which you know
is?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Well, the ring wasn't hadn't been imbued yet, so it
didn't.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
No, no, no, yes, but what I'm saying is oh, he proved
that it didn't work.
He proved that it didn't workby doing that.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
So presumably it did make her invulnerable.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So there's some inconsistencies here if you look
a little closer.
So, and it's going to come upagain in six.
The ring is so yeah, I don'tknow, but I like those those
things about lilith and uh andthe ring, like I mean it was fun
(28:05):
, the black and white.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
White Gate and the Four E's.
I love this episode.
I think it's fantastic.
I love the backstory for thering, even though it does create
some plot holes and somecontinuity issues.
I'm more than happy to handwave away the plot holes and I'm
willing to have it be like theimmortality in the ring has to
(28:28):
be chosen, to be activated orsomething I I actually I don't
think that's going to carry usin season in six when it works,
because, oh yeah, because hedoesn't, it surprises him.
Yeah, it's true, I mean we'llget there, we'll get there so I
don't know, in part because thethe ring is part of Lucifer's
(28:51):
wardrobe because of Tom Ellis,If I remember correctly.
I think they had him all kittedup for it.
He's like need something and hepicked out the ring from
wardrobe's promise or something.
And there's the very first timewe meet him, we see him tapping
his fingers's the the the veryfirst time we meet him, we see
him like tapping his fingers onthe uh, on the steering wheel,
(29:12):
at the very first episode.
And we see, see, that ring.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
And it was just kind of not a throwaway, but it was
just just something that youknow completes the look, and
here we have this lovelybackstory.
That's fits character.
Wise yeah, even if it createsplot holes.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
So I also want to talk about Jack and Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, the episode right Because we've talked
before about how there seems tobe, yeah, anxiety about the idea
of being lied into friendship.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Right, Like I.
I feel like I mean, it's notjust this show, right.
I think that, like justHollywood had me thinking that
people being paid to be myfriend would be like a much
bigger problem than it hasturned out to be, or maybe I
just don't know and I knowrevealed that people are being
paid to be my friend.
I don't know, but actually thatwith what's going on in this
(30:16):
sort of overarching story, withChloe realizing that she was a
gift, it has a different sort ofresonance than it has in the
past.
And in this show, Chloe washurt badly when she realized
that, you know, the maze and theand the other I think it was
just maze were being her friend.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Well, and she assumed it was, it was everyone,
because I think it was just mazewere being her friend, well,
and she assumed it was, it waseveryone because because lucifer
was paying them too orsomething.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
So that sort of sense that someone would be only
likes you because they are paidto or have to in some way, yeah
and then, and then the sort ofoverarching story about her
being a gift, like adds an extralayer to it, like the question
of like is this real?
(31:03):
Which you and I have talkedabout a lot because of this show
, because the same plot device,actually, where lucifer was like
I thought it was real and now Idon't think it's like sort of
the criteria for what is realand what isn't when it comes to
relationships and emotion and,you know, affinity and affection
(31:25):
.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I have had that thought as a parent in some ways
.
And so my eldest, his favoritecolor, from the time he was like
a year and a half old, was red,like just loved red.
And so he went through a periodwhen he was like two where he
insisted on wearing a red shirt.
Every day he had to wear a redshirt.
(31:49):
So I was like, please do notjoin Starfleet.
So when his little brother camealong, I found it a lot easier
to color code things so I couldquickly know whose was what, and
so I signed my youngest thecolor of blue, just for easy
color coding.
My youngest favorite color isblue and I'm not saying I feel
(32:12):
guilty, but I feel a littleweird about it because I'm just
like did you actually like thecolor blue or was it assigned to
you?
And like it doesn't matter, itreally doesn't, you know it's,
it's a color.
But I've had similar, similarthoughts about the youngest has
expressed interest in art and uh, like we went on vacation and I
(32:32):
let him use my, my phone totake pictures and we realized he
has a very good eye, which Itold him and then he told
everyone.
So he was, uh, he was eight atthe time and you know we'd see
other people who were, you know,trying to take pictures like oh
, I can take it for you, I havea good eye, I have a better eye
than most people anyway, butbecause of that I have been, you
(32:55):
know, I buy art related, likeart supplies for for birthday
gifts and supplies for birthdaygifts and am encouraging him to
really enjoy and explore that.
Again, it's not that I feelguilty, but I sometimes feel a
little weird about it becauseit's just like how much of this
is him and how much of this isme, and does it matter?
Obviously, creating a humanbeing for my child is different,
(33:20):
but there is, there is some ofthat too, like there are forces
working in your life that areintentional decisions by other
people that you don't havecontrol over, that do end up
creating paths in your life thatyou might not otherwise be
(33:41):
taking, and that doesn'tnecessarily mean that it's a bad
thing, but it's.
It's an interesting questionbecause I know that I like
thinking back on my childhood.
There are things that I'm likewould I have chosen that if I
had been raised in a differentfamily?
And I don't know, and sometimesthat makes me a little
(34:02):
frustrated, particularly withthe Jack and Shirley situation.
What's interesting is thatJack's sergeant, or you know,
the, the, his army buddy, the,but who is his captain, his
commanding captain, captain,specifically hired Shirley to
(34:25):
help Jack get over his, uh, hisPTSD.
Well, it's shell shock is whatthey called it at the time which
I mean, is actually very in inkeeping with like how 1940s
people would think of things.
Absolutely, and obviously Jackis not over his trauma, but what
(34:48):
the captain was doing wasactually really trying to be a
good friend and how he wentabout it was weird and heavy
handed and and kind of gross.
But surely was someone thatJack would like.
Yeah, and I.
(35:09):
I looked it up cause, uh, youknow, I'm, I'm, I work in
financial media and I was like,so how much is $20 from in the
1940s?
It's a $300.
Oh, wow, so, um, and then thatthe, the $12 for the uh, um, the
Anubis um ritual, is 180.
(35:31):
Oh so it's real money, realmoney, yeah, which makes sense,
and I'm you, you know can wetalk about the anubis?
Speaker 3 (35:40):
yes, it is bizarre to me that the wiener king or
whatever he was, prince thoughtthat like this ancient egyptian
thing would work on for lilith'sring.
Like they're two differentmythologies.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
She's not known to be wait, so it's what would they
call Did they call it the ringof Lilith.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
Ring of Lilith, okay, hmm, I mean they, they were
saying they.
I mean she went by Lily Rosebut they called it the ring of
Lilith.
And, um, cause, cause that.
I mean she went by Lily Rosebut they called it the Ring of
Lilith.
And because that's what DBWoodside, as Melvin the
Magnificent, is like, do youhave a Ring of Lilith?
Because I have many customerswho would pay for a passing ring
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(36:29):
So they called it the Ring ofLilith.
But then they were doing thisancient Egyptian which is like,
if I'm overthinking it, it is aninteresting statement about
human mythology, all actuallysort of like in a bahá'í kind of
way, like the bahá'í faithbelieves that we all are
actually talking about the samegod.
God just reveals themselvesdifferently to different people.
(36:50):
Um, in that sort of like ideaof cosmology well, I, I do feel
like it.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Also, it fits with a very american othering of of any
culture that is that theyaren't familiar with.
So, like the oh gosh, when wastutankhamen's?
Uh, in the 20s, it was the 20s,yeah, wasn't it?
So?
Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
So egypt was like I'm sure still like wow, this is
really cool and big and let'sunwrap a mummy and and right
right, and 20 years later, yeah,yeah yeah, and so that would be
an orientalism of the time andyeah, yes, yeah um, in the same
way, white people would likeunwrap a mummy and like make tea
out of the dressing yes, well,and they'd have parties where
(37:40):
they'd like.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Which?
Speaker 3 (37:43):
is wrong with us.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
I don't know, I know well, and it's yeah, yeah, um,
even the idea like, let's lookat somebody's body like I know
it's a grave.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
I like yeah, but but don't worry, it's a foreign body
, it's not real.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
It's not one of us, aunt margaret.
It does remind me a little bitof, if you remember, movies in
the 1990s seemed to think thatcomputers were magic.
I feel like in our imaginationwe as humans like latch on to
something, like, oh, that'ssomething I don't understand, so
it must be able to do anythingI can think of.
(38:31):
And so you know, we livedthrough the magic of computers
in the 1990s where we just like,yes, two boys, could you know,
put in pictures of hot womeninto a computer and it will
manifest.
What is that?
One thing, kelly LeBrock, theword science was in the actual
(38:56):
title of that movie.
The word science was in theactual title of that movie,
which, okay, that I think theyknew.
Like, okay, yeah, this is justridiculous.
We just want to.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
I think that was sort of like Hot Tub Time Machine.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yes, However, so that was ridiculous.
However, the movie Sneakers.
Do you have any memory of thatmovie?
I do, because the first date Iever went on was to see Sneakers
.
Hey, jared, if you're watching,so in that film.
(39:35):
They are trying to break intosomething and they recognition,
voice recognition saying aspecific phrase like my, my
voice is my passport, orsomething like that.
And so they have.
Uh, there's the, the one.
One woman in the uh, the heistgroup go on a date with the guy
whose voice they need claiming.
Uh, like they hack into acomputer dating site and you
(39:55):
know she's trying to get him tosay all those words, get him to
say all those words.
And then at some point things gowrong and they end up seeing
the guy's boss and the guy'sboss is like oh wow, you guys
are on a date.
And he's like yeah, this is youknow.
Computer dating set us together.
And the guy's boss is likethere is no way, that would
happen.
And at the time it's just likeoh no, they've been caught,
(40:19):
they've been made.
And like now I'm like what?
So that's what I mean.
Like where?
Like computers are magic.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, yeah, or like you remember, war games with
Matt Broderick.
Yes, it's like the computer.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
I mean like maybe ai today maybe, but even then
there'd be so many fail-safesyeah, yeah, yeah so to bring it
back to lucifer, um humanimagination always latches on to
whatever newest in the in thezeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Right as like.
So in that sense, the, theEgyptian, the ancient Egyptian,
fits.
Hey, like historically, like,like nice research.
Yeah, yeah On the part of thewriters.
Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, so but, and like it's one of the things that
I find interesting too in that,uh, once you've lived through
this once or twice I have Istruggle to understand the
people who don't recognize itwhen it happens again.
And I'm looking right at youBitcoin and NFT bros, um, now
the ones who are like 20, I'mlike, okay, I'll give it to you.
(41:36):
You haven't lived through this,it's your first time through.
It's your first time, butplease remember this this will
not solve war and poverty andfix the pipes in Flint, michigan
, which are all things peoplehave claimed Bitcoin will do.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
So anyway, but even the 20-somethings.
Can you just stop for a secondand think about, like does this
really fit?
Yeah, so can you.
Can you like you've got aBitcoin?
B question mark C everythingfixed.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
It's like that old far side where, like he's doing
like a math proof, and then itsays and then a miracle happens.
Yes, all right, I'm going tobring us back, because we've
been talking for a while.
We did have a couple of hiccups, but we still.
We've been on for a long minute.
So I think I'm going to ask us,unless you have anything else
substantive.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
No, I don't think I have any any other substantive.
I just could you know,appreciation post for, for it
never ends well for the chicken.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Uh well, let's do some fluff, let's do some fluff.
So my fluff, my appreciationpost from and fluff from from,
never ends.
Well, for the chicken is Leslieand Brant's like upper chest
and they follow Taj.
Like her, her collarbones andlike her skin is like perfect
(43:00):
and I know she gets black andwhite and she's a professional
actor and she had professionalmakeup artists there but like it
was like like silk over overcollarbones and I just was like
and her neck like it was alljust like like the woman has
never had skin tag.
(43:21):
Wow, I know Like, and she'swearing that dress that comes
really, really low, so she'slike.
So you see, like a big expanseof it and it's just she is just
amazing.
Yeah, so that's my, my fluff.
I just was like, yeah, reallylike mesmerized by just how
gorgeous her skin.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
And those dresses are just amazing.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Also Rachel Harris's hair.
Oh gosh as Gertie.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yes, awesome, I love her, I love it.
The dress she's wearing, too,is amazing.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
Yeah, it's a Chinese style.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, awesome, she glows yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Absolutely, that's pretty great, that's pretty
great.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
My fluff is.
Both Tom Ellis and LaurenGerman look hot as hell in 1940
suits.
They do yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
I mean like yeah, lauren German pulls off the the
sort of androgynous look reallyreally well, she, she, yeah, she
rocked it, she rocked it, shereally rocked it.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You and I have talked about how we're not necessarily
fans of her acting choices, butshe sold the Jack character.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I think so too.
Yeah, I believed her as Jack.
I kind of, yeah, I kind of Ilost track of the fact that it
was Lauren German, exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
And so I have sometimes wondered if maybe just
the things that we don't likeabout her acting is not a lack
of skill.
It's just the choices.
Maybe yeah, so or or orpossibly bad direction.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, yeah, not for editing director for her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, or possibly bad direction,or not, for editing director for
her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a.
That's a good point, cause I, I, all, I felt the same way their
chemistry, jack.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Jack and and and Lucifer's chemistry was also.
It was nice.
I appreciated it.
Yeah, it was very differentfrom their chemistry.
Is Chloe and Lucifer?
Yeah, but yeah, it was verydifferent from their chemistry
as Chloe and Lucifer, but it wasstill just very enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
Yeah, agreed, agreed.
Another piece of fluff at theend of Diablo, when the actress
who plays Christy Dancer is likecomplaining, like I don't want
to stay here, where my main propis a stripper pole, and then
they start tussling and thenit's actually Chloe who uses the
stripper pole to then theystart tussling and then it's
(45:42):
actually chloe who uses thestripper pole to take her down,
and I thought that was a reallynice sort of turnabout, that,
like, even the stripper pole isa, you know, a powerful tool for
doing what you need to do.
We're not in theobjectification of, uh, of the
dancer.
I thought that was really likeit was subtle, yeah yeah I
thought that was a nice littlelike commentary of some of some
(46:06):
sort I don't know exactly what,but yeah, but I like I like yeah
, no it was also sort of meta,the thing.
You know, the character played,the decker character, was saying
I don't want to use this as aprop.
And then decker uses it as aprop, like there's some I don't
know I I like, oh, I didn'tnotice it on in the first time,
but on rewatch for to talk toyou, I was like, oh, chloe used
(46:28):
this triple like kicker, yeahwell, you know it.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Also, there's something kind of cool about, I
feel, feel like it's um, I mean,the show in general is uh, very
non, uh nonjudgmental about um,sex work, um, and it was like
making it clear like this isn't,this doesn't have to be
disempowering, and in the sameway, like in the second episode,
(46:54):
shirley never feels like shehas to apologize for her
profession.
It's just the fact that Jackdidn't know, you know, and so so
I like I appreciated that too,and like, in talking about it,
it's not so much that Jack stilldescribes her as the best thing
that ever happened to him, it'snot that it's not that, no, and
(47:18):
it's actually it is.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
You're exactly right.
It's that he didn't know.
It's not that she used to be acall girl, because he says the
best thing, that the best thingthat ever happened to you, was
based on a lie.
Yes, yeah, so it's not the bestthing that ever happened to you
.
Turns out to be dirty, yes,which is, I think, another way
that it could have been written.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Could have been written.
Yeah, and even like I mean,Jack doesn't like it when
Lucifer is like, oh, think ofall the firemen and all of that
like that.
But that's more of the like.
That's my wife you're talkingabout.
Please stop, you know, ratherthan like ew, it's more just
like I just don't want to thinkabout that because I don't want
to think about, you know, theperson I love in situations like
(47:56):
that, rather than like she's abad person or anything like that
.
Right, Kevin, Alejandro, oh man.
He did such a good job so goodCause he's such a goober here
and like that man is like,remarkably handsome.
(48:17):
He's very handsome, but not inthis episode.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I mean, they do that on purpose, I know like parted
down the middle and the hair andyeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and and
his like I'm too rich to go to.
Yeah, he did a great job, oh mygoodness.
It also felt like he was havingfun which I appreciate.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I love it when you can tell someone to like I feel
like Amy Garcia was having funtoo Agreed.
Agreed Also like when he getsshot in the foot and he goes
down and he goes my stomach.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
And the way he screams.
Yeah, it's pretty great.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Oh, and the, the, the line of like.
There's something you remind meof.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
I can't put fear on a shower, but French.
I thought that was silly, thatwas just fan service.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
It was just fan service, that was just silly,
but it was fun fan service andI'll take it.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
So but All right.
Well, I'm not going to say I'llsee you next week, because who
knows when?
Speaker 1 (49:14):
we'll get to this again, but I will see you next
time but I will see you nexttime.
Yes, Happy birthday, Thank you.
Our theme song is feral angelwaltz by Kevin McLeod from
incompetentcom, licensed undercreative commons by attribution
4.0 license.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
(49:35):
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered powered by
Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, Netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
(49:56):
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
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