April 11, 2024 • 38 mins
On rewatch, the Guy girls were reminded just how much they compartmentalize their memories about these two episodes. “Our Mojo” and “Spoiler Alert” provide delightfully fun and funny moments intermixed with grim details of the serial-killer-right-under-our-noses storyline.
The sisters spend time teasing out the phenomenological and metaphorical mechanisms behind the supernatural elements of “Our Mojo,” including Lucifer’s emotional immaturity and the consequences of having the drawer-of-desires finally achieving his own desire. Comparing and contrasting the three angelic siblings (as well as the two villains, Pete and Michael) captures their attention, and they agree that Pete is the most chilling of the killers in the procedural portion of the show.
In the end, Emily longs for an encouraging gif of DB Woodside believing in her and Tracie refuses to believe that a hardboiled detective like Chloe Decker would drink a frou-frou coffee order.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, who
does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen,that's true.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
It's what?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
we do it is, and so today Em we're overthinking 507
and 508, our mojo, our mojo andspoiler alert.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
One thing I have to say is I kind of separate in my
mind the funny parts of theseepisodes from the bleaker stuff.
I remembered our mojo as, likeyou know, like the funny at the
bit, like are you cold Causehell was supposed to freeze over
, and like him posing nakedRight and like him, you know the
(01:14):
, the loser freak out.
Similarly, I remember him liketrying to figure out how to get
revenge on Dan and like that Ithink of like the serial killer
side plot and and all of that asa different episode.
Yeah, it is bleak.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I I am watching these to prepare for this.
I remember why I don't re-watchthem very often, so, but let's
dig in.
Um, let's uh start with ourmojo.
Um, there's some stuff that Iwant to over.
I made some notes so that Iwould like stay on task so we
won't have another mr rogerssituation right, well, we might,
(01:56):
but, um, okay, so let's startthe.
Let's start off with the factthat the mojo, she can mojo him,
she motors him from thebeginning, and then we realized
he has lost the ability to askpeople's desires.
I really want to overthinkwhat's happening here because
I'm like it's in some ways it'sjust sort of a comedic moment
for the TV show, like for the TVexperience, and also like sets
(02:20):
up sort of hit, a reminder ofhis emotional immaturity.
But let's actually like dig into, like what is happening, the
mechanics of itPhenomenologically, and
metaphorically, like I wasthinking about, like a couple
episodes ago, a menidealrealized that Lucifer like draws
out people's desires byreflecting back at them what
(02:43):
they desire.
Right, and I'm thinking like,maybe because he's actually now
consummated his having fallen inlove with chloe, with with sex,
like he actually achieved adesire and so now, like there's
like he's not as receptive toothers, maybe, and since she was
(03:06):
the object of that desire in a,in a deeper way than just sort
of the, you know, scratching theedge of physical, of physical
desire, like there's a deeperemotional connection with her.
That maybe that's kind ofwhat's happening with the
initial kind of transference butand loss, because it's actually
(03:26):
all about him, right, shedoesn't actually have the power
to draw out others' desires,only his, and he's lost the
power to draw out other people'sdesires.
He never was able to draw outChloe's, so maybe it's something
about the fulfilled desire inhim that makes that happen.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Does that make sense to me?
Yeah, yeah, I think.
To the show's credit, theynever explain it, even though I
think that that is a reasonableexplanation for what's happening
, because there is something.
One of the things I had thoughtabout is clearly he has lots of
experience, but would he begood for Chloe?
(04:07):
Because he can't reflect herdesire back, and so he'd be, you
know, fumbling just like anyother human being, the first
time with with a new lover.
So an interesting thought, andso I have had that thought
before multiple times.
But then this is kind of likethe other side of it is is that
(04:28):
all of his desire power is aboutdrawing out other people's
desires.
What is it that he desires?
Because nobody asks him that,and that's part of like.
The gift of what Chloe is forhim is that she can see him as a
person and is actually in aposition to say, like, what is
it that you truly want, ratherthan just you know, I'm the
(04:52):
person who gets you what youwant, which is normal reaction,
or who he normally is to otherpeople, and it's interesting
that, instead of just being likesatisfied, he freaks out.
Now, that's a part of hisemotional immaturity, but it's
(05:18):
also in some ways realistic too,with an overgrown man child,
like actually experiencingintimacy for the first time,
that he would like freak out andkind of retreat again.
I don't know what that meansfor and I feel like this was
just a writer shortcut for himbeing invulnerable again in the
(05:38):
next episode.
Like I don't feel like we canput our heads together and
overthink a way to make thatwork.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Honestly, I mean maybe, but you know we have to
try, Indeed we do and andactually sort of on that line
that you're that you're pullingon right now.
There's this, that weird momentafter they've caught Klomsky,
(06:06):
Lucifer has recovered from thedrug and they're standing there
and ella and chloe walk away andpete is left there with lucifer
and pete's like I feel like youdon't like me and whatever, and
they have that exchange.
That first time through, beforeyou know the truth about pete,
like makes total sense.
And then now running throughknowing what we know about Pete,
(06:28):
like what's his angle?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I don't, I don't, I don't know, unless it's just all
part of the act of doing whatyou're supposed to do.
Yeah, and that conversationabout like I just have to let
her in and see what she decides,and then Chloe's response to
(06:52):
like you finally let me in bylike that's what the
transference of the mojo was.
All of that then combinedwithin the return of the
invulnerability, I thinkactually okay, you've convinced
(07:12):
me I think it makes sense thatdoes make sense.
It's a part of his freak out,that he like the, that next
taking that I mean, since heself, he self actualizes the
actualization of the next levelof intimacy, of letting her past
his defenses and and magic, andlike sort of how he interacts
(07:35):
with others.
It like realizing that that hashappened and the emotions that
that sort of draws or creates inhim is enough to make him shut
down the ways in which he hadlet her in previously.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, okay, I'll buy it.
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But the conversation like I actually think, in terms
of storytelling and so that Icould draw that conclusion, the
conversation with Pete is very,very helpful, right?
So this, the breadcrumbs thatthe writers left for us were
that conversation with pete andthen chloe talking about letting
, letting her in.
So that's helpful, but when Ilook at pete and his motivation,
(08:20):
I don't, I mean I I guess Ijust have to sort of say like
well, that's just part of thewhole act, because I have the
same question about giving herhis key.
I mean, when you have afreaking like murder room
dungeon, yeah, maybe you don'tgive your key to the curious
forensic scientist.
(08:41):
So that you're trying to keep inthe dark.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I actually, I do want to talk about pete quite a bit.
I actually I see that, as hethinks he's smarter than
everyone, yeah, and so you seethat in in the when she's
interrogating him, like yeah, um, and so I am willing to like
there's, there's no danger to mebecause, like I'm too, smart, I
too smart, and so that fits forme.
(09:07):
I think there's also a sense of,like he was talking about I
want to feel something.
The danger of having her therewould also be flirting with
something that could maybe makehim feel something.
Yeah, and feel something, youknow, yeah.
(09:29):
And then, as for the theconversation with lucifer, he's
saying I just have to let her inand let her, like, decide for
herself, but he's he's not right, he's not actually all an act,
it's all an act.
And so, like there's I the factthat that is entirely an act.
I mean, does he even like StarTrek?
(09:50):
I mean like he was able to dothe Klingon?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think he's got to like Star Trek.
You don't bust out Klingon.
Yeah, then another Klingonspeaker recognizes.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, so you know he's, and the fact that he's
putting on the act in front oflucifer is what feels like wow,
that's, that's tap dancing to alevel I have trouble imagining.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
but then again I'm not a serial killer, right?
And I wonder too if there'ssomething about, I mean, part of
what he said he was doing wassaying everything he was
supposed to say.
So, even in saying like itdoesn't matter if we're friends,
but she really likes you and Ireally like her, it's like, in
some ways, that was all aboutLucifer's ego, right, and so
(10:40):
maybe that actually that's whythe breadcrumbs were there,
because Pete was just picking upwhat was already there, that he
was seeing Lucifer's anxietyabout, you know, not feeling
worthy, yeah, which becomes amajor theme in the next oh,
absolutely In the next half aseason, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So the other thing that I wanted to say about Pete
is actually it's more about Ella.
She's not sure about him atmultiple points and people were
like, oh my God, he's so great,he's so perfect for you.
And then, specifically inspoiler alert, when she's like
(11:22):
oh my God, this is too soonabout the key to Chloe.
Chloe advises her, like, enjoythis, embrace it.
And I want to talk about howcommon it is for society to talk
women out of their gut feelings.
I have been in relationshipswhere it didn't feel right and
(11:44):
people have told me like, oh myGod, he's being so good to you,
Enjoy this, Just just, and likeit blew up later.
I'm like not, you know, murderdungeon in the in the basement
later, but like still blew upand I got mad that I like
ignored my own sense andintuition.
And that's clearly going onwith with Ella, and I know some
(12:07):
of it has to do with the factthat she's convinced that she
liked bad boys and so like I'm,I'm resisting cause he's a nice
guy Right, Instead of it beinglike you know what.
I know myself and I know howI'm reacting and I should listen
, and so that's something I'vereally felt watching this, just
(12:30):
because it has happened to me onmore than one occasion and I
think it happens to I mean notjust women, it happens to
everyone.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Our society gaslights yeah, we're definitely told not
to trust our intuition, but wealso, as a species, are guilty
of self-sabotage.
I mean, both are trueabsolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
The thing is there's the, the kind of the, the
self-sabotage that she is guiltyof is not slowing down too much
, true and so, and that that'spart of part of why like, but
it's, it's difficult.
That's why I feel like everyoneneeds a therapist.
(13:11):
Like if she had talked to lindaabout this, I think linda would
have had a more nuanced andreasonable response than like,
and you know, some of this wasbecause chloe was freaking out a
little bit about the fact thatlucifer hadn't said I love you
yet, and so she would havereally liked it if if he were
right, she rushed, so she rushedthrough her advice as well.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, exactly well.
And then there was a snake thatshe needed to go address.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, literal, literal sink a little snake, um,
but that was something, becausethat's not the only time that
that that's happened with Ellaand her intuition was absolutely
correct.
And even if he hadn't turnedout to be a serial killer, that
doesn't change the fact that ifyou feel like it's too fast,
(13:58):
then it's too fast.
It's too fast, like that's youonly need one person to put on
the brakes Right, right, likethat's, you only need one person
to put on the brakes, right,right.
And that's, uh, something Iwish.
I don't know, I'm not sure howI wish they, if they they had
done anything differently oranything like that, because it
becomes clear that the advicewas terrible from uh, that from
(14:20):
chloe, and not that she didanything wrong, but just that it
was bad advice.
But you know, I just want tounderline in our show how
unhelpful it is to tell someonelike enjoy this, embrace it,
when someone is expressingdiscomfort or something right,
right, right.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
You know, thinking about our mojo and that and Pete
in that like I wonder if therewas a, from the storytelling
perspective, a missedopportunity, just minor, of like
.
While he's helping to catchklomsky, the only emotion he
really expresses is like oh no,we're gonna save a life.
This is like great.
(15:00):
Um.
I wish that we'd seen a littlebit of anger from him.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I will say I was paying a little closer attention
than probably.
Well, so this might've been sosubtle that it wasn't actually
there, but there was a pointwhere where Chloe says like
we've caught the serial killer,we've caught the person who's
responsible for four deaths, andthere, and Pete's face kind of
(15:31):
falls, and it's very subtle,which fits with the how firmly
he's wearing his mask, but his,his face definitely changes in
that moment, and I think thatthat is, and no one's looking at
(15:52):
him at the time either.
So like I felt like that'sreasonable.
That is what would happen withsomeone who is so committed to a
fake persona.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I feel like we could have.
I I do think we could have hadhim say, like when they're in
the dark room or something, orwhen she's like apologizing, he
can say let's catch this son ofa bitch, you know like I think
he could have expressed angertoward klonsky, yeah, uh, in a
way that would have at like madesense, as like if he weren't
(16:28):
we're not who he is, just likewe have to stop this killer, but
also on retrospect for us, asthe re-watchers would have been
like oh he's pissed off at thiscopycat, yeah, which totally not
necessary, obviously, but wouldhave been satisfying, I think,
for the re-watcher to be like ohlook, he's like annoyed that
(16:48):
that he's being copied like wedon't see it there's.
They actually don't expressannoyance at his being copied
ever.
We don't see that at all, noteven in the interrogation at the
end.
I do think, considering the parthe's playing for Ella him
saying let's catch that son of abitch wouldn't fit, because
(17:10):
he's playing this very gentlecharacter yeah, um to for her
whereas, like hitting, saving alife is in keeping with the
character he's playing I guess II would argue that it could
have been written in a way thatcould have given us something
that would have been stillwithin keeping of the character
he was playing for ella and alsoexpressed a little bit of the
(17:32):
anger that the actual, althoughpart of what we hear from him is
that he has no feelings, yeah,except for in that, you know.
So, yeah, well, I, okay, he's.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I feel like he's the most chilling character Totally
Of all the bad guys.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, because he's a complete sociopath like he has
no energy for the women that hekills.
And even like when he's talking, like when she realizes he was
planning on killing her, and Imean, yeah, all most of the
other killers actually had a lotof feeling, they had a lot of
passion, and it was misplacedand it was over the top and it
was like whatever, like notworth killing for dude, but but
(18:18):
at least like the actual emotionwas comprehensible.
Absolutely, peace is not.
It's horrifying.
And and actually it'sinteresting that, thinking about
the two arcs, like that Michaelis paired here too, because I
also find Michaelincomprehensible.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's that's fair,
because he's not.
He's motivated by this.
I mean, we learn through thebig arc that it's motivated by
lust for power, but we don't seethat now.
But we don't see that now.
Learn through the big arc thatit's motivated by lust for power
, but we don't see that now.
(19:01):
But we don't see that now.
It's.
It's kind of like you know howthere are people who they just
like to tease people in a wayand like and get a.
And this was me growing up.
I was.
I was like people would say itwas easy to get my goat and like
don't be so easy to get yourgoat.
And I'm just like why do youlike getting my goat?
Yeah, I remember that, and sothat's something I struggle to
(19:23):
understand, like why someonewould enjoy pushing people's
buttons, which is exactly whatMichael does.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And it's, you know, it's interesting to to like
juxtapose, like the threebrothers that we see in these
two episodes right, like amenadeel manages to say just the
right thing that's actuallyhelpful and healing to maze
about.
You know about other examplesof things that never, never
happened before.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, and he's so, um , like, he's like, if anyone can
get what they want, it's you.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
he's so just supportive, encouraging and
empowering.
Yeah, so he, he plays that role.
And then michael is sort of theopposite, like fueling the fear
and the and the anger and theresentment, like fueling all the
negative emotions to send herback.
And Lucifer is oblivious.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
And this is the worst possible thing.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
But not out of malice , no, no, it's completely from
the other two brothers havestrategy.
Yeah, that's true, the one touplift the other to denigrate,
yeah, and Luciferdenigratesrates, but through
obliviousness and um, it's sortof interesting, sort of
juxtaposing those three to inrelation to maze in particular,
(20:46):
but also just in general, in theway that they are interacting
with the world and like what'smotivating them.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You know what's interesting I just realized and
I I think it was probably wassupposed to be obvious and I
didn't get it but the uhjuxtaposing of chloe getting
obsessed trying to find theserial killer, with lucifer
getting obsessed planning the,the revenge on on dan, and how
important her work was and howfrivolous his was.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And when she says, like you go, do that, I'm going
to catch a killer and he's likegreat idea.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, again, the obliviousness.
The obliviousness.
Oh yeah, that's that.
That was the point at which, uh, cause, and like Lauren German
just kind of like really opensher eyes wide, like are you
kidding me?
Um, and that was the pointwhere I was like, as much as I
adore the character of lucifer,it would be hell being in a
(21:44):
relationship with of any kind,like friendship, sibling,
totally, totally lovingrelationship.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, michael, like pete is putting on a show
like when michael shows up inthe cemetery.
Oh yeah, with dan and then hesays perhaps you've heard of me
the archangel michael, and hedoes prayer hands, yeah, yeah,
well, and what he's wearing evenis like he like it's such a
(22:13):
show, yeah, and I think likeseeing Like he, like it's such a
show, yeah, and I think likeseeing, watching it again,
seeing that show that Michaelputs on like makes Pete's show,
like the facade of it, kind ofmore nuanced for me.
Yeah, that was the prayer hands.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
That was, that was the prayer hands, that was, that
was what.
Yeah, the thing that I findinteresting also, because they
call lucifer the prince of liesand it's archangel michael who's
the liar, and I'm thinkingabout how easy it is to get away
with a lie.
Well, first of all, when itcomes from a source that you
(22:57):
don't expect to to lie, so likeand that's something that I have
, I've I've noticed like it.
Well, okay, let's put it likethis so harvey weinstein, part
of his abuse was to cultivatepeople who were going to defend
him Like Meryl Streep is one Ican think of so the people that
(23:21):
he is absolutely 100% just loyalto and kind to and never shows
any sense of nastiness.
And so when people are accusinghim, there are these, these
people in the wings going likethat's not the Harvey I know,
(23:41):
whereas someone who is living alife that seems like outside the
norm or anything like that,you're more likely to think that
they're lying just because youdon't approve of how they live.
It's a very amorphous thought,but I'm just thinking about the
fact that there is thisjuxtaposition between who we
(24:06):
expect to be truthful, who weexpect to be duplicitous, and
how that can be exploited in away that's that makes it almost
impossible for the truthfulperson, who's actually truthful,
to convince people that they'retelling the truth.
Yeah who, michael, is such adick.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Such a dick, such a dick.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Every time I forget it Right.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
He says a great job, I feel like his American accent
wasn't quite as good.
And spoiler Every time I forgetit's Tom Atlas.
Right, he does a great job, hedoes such a good job.
I feel like his American accentwasn't quite as good in spoiler
alert, like in the scene whereshe's in the zoo, which, by the
way, an abandoned zoo, what,yeah, anyway, but I feel like
his American accent was a littleoff on a couple of words.
It stuck out, but the firsttime through I didn't notice
(24:56):
that at all.
But, yeah, total, total dick.
So a couple of things from um,from spoiler alert that I want
to mention.
Like, overthinking it, theA-list director who's been dead
over a week.
Yeah, I have a hard timebelieving that she would go
missing and not be discovered.
(25:18):
Yeah, for over a week.
Yeah, that just doesn't makesense.
Yeah, that that didn't.
Um.
They, I that was a like adetail that I think they should
have just changed.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I just yeah, that didn't make she didn't have to
be an a-list director.
She could have been an aspiringdirector or like a director who
recently had a I don't knowlike a scandal or something.
You know, there's any number ofthings they could have done.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah yeah, just that that like little detail gave me
a speed bump while I waswatching, yeah, and that I also.
I mean, I know they were justlike in, like the emotion or
whatever, but chloe'd only beenmissing for like a day two, yeah
, and, and they clearly likethat the body had been there for
a while, because this they werethe scent and then, the lilies
(26:03):
were and flies, like they madeit clear that this has been a
minute which I think ella andlucifer would have put together
even before they turned the,which was very dramatic you know
the blonde hair and they theyturn the chair and dramatic and
also like kind of gross thatthey were like relieved that
(26:23):
this dead woman, I mean, makessense.
They were relieved it wasn'ttheir friend, but also like, oh
yeah, so.
And then the other thing that Iwanted to just like lift up is
the choreography of the fightscene at the end while time is
frozen was amazing.
I was really good, reallyenjoying it and like the way
(26:47):
that, like it was I think it waskevin alejandro- yes, that's
what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Did you see who directed?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
it like he is very talented the way he directed the
cuts were like there would belike a strike and then it would
be the other, the other pair.
That was really, reallysatisfying to watch.
Yes, yeah, I really enjoyedthat um, and like the glass
while time, and so it just sortof like hung there that was such
a cool effect.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
When I was watching like the, the, like the glass
and all of that I was like thisis what a netflix budget does
for you.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
That was I was.
That was really really cool.
I really like that.
So one other thing I'm likechecking my notes, which is why
I'm like hesitating here.
So the one other thing this isa little disjointed, but I'm
watching the time is that it'sinteresting.
Lucifer says to maze more thanonce you're just a demon.
(27:40):
Right, which is painful formaze to hear ella when they're
like chasing down the killer,and ella's like we need backup
and he's like I'm all the backupyou need and she's like you're
just an actor and it doesn'taffect him at all because it's
not true.
Yeah, and you know, I don'tknow if the writer set that up
(28:01):
on purpose, but that was aninteresting like.
I found that I noticed thatsort of interesting like
dismissal of the companions,dismissal of the person, and the
effect that it has is totallyon whether or not that identity
has been internalized.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
You know, I mean, that's so.
If someone said to me you'rejust a Wisconsinite, I'd be like
what?
Because you know, yes, I livein Wisconsin, but that's not
part of my identity.
Whereas if they said, you know,you're just a writer or you're
just a woman like that, I wouldbe like you take that back, yeah
(28:46):
, so.
Yeah, it really does have to dowith, like, whether or not this
is something that you identifywith and whether or not you have
any internalized oppressionaround it.
That's true too.
So I'm trying to think of likesomething that I am other than
like where I live.
But you're just a Birkin, butsince I am a member of that
(29:07):
family, or just a guy actually,that I if someone said that's me
, I have a little more of aproblem with it.
So, weird, weird, weird, weird.
Oh yeah, yeah, let's sidlearound the radioactivity.
(29:38):
There is one thing that I wantto mention before we get to
fluff, because I know you've gota hard stop.
This is not the first time thatsomeone has brought up Ella's
darkness.
It really affects her, and forgood reason, because you know
Pete's saying like oh, we'rejust alike, right, what I?
I really wish there was alittle bit more about what that
(30:00):
means Now.
We get into it later, and whenwe get to it I'll talk about why
I have such a problem with howthat goes down.
But her so-called darkness isjust like humanity.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, I actually wrote that down too and
then I wasn't sure if I wantedto.
Yeah, bring it up.
But yeah, that I I agree andlike, especially like lucifer,
who has met 90 of humanity orwhatever, like thinks that she's
something special, she'sstronger than she knows, and
(30:39):
Azrael, who meets a hundredpercent of humanity, at some
point singled her out to be aspecial human friend.
Like there's something specialabout Ella.
I don't think it's darkness.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And I will say, if I'm going to overthink it,
someone as dark as Pete, who hassomething I don't want to say
special, but unusual about him.
It's different.
He might see the differencethat is her specialness.
He's projecting his differenceonto it, yeah, and says I
(31:21):
recognize it.
The moment we met, it wasn'tthat he was recognizing the same
, the same difference, but thatthere is a difference.
I agree, what is dark aboutella is just what is human about
all of us.
Yeah, yeah, but there is theshow.
Within the universe of the show, ella lopez is special.
(31:45):
She's not a typical human.
I mean billions of people.
Azrael visits her, right, Imean, and now azrael doesn't
meet most of them while they'restill living, but some of them.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
She's not the only right, yeah, but as far as we
know, she said something like ithappens sometimes, like when,
when she what happened with withella in the car right, so and
so there are, but she doesn'tshow up as Ray Ray the ghost for
the rest of them.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
For the rest of them, yeah, for everyone who's had a
near-death experience, yeah,yeah, if I'm going to overthink
that which was atypical in Ella,cause that's the only way he
(32:41):
knows atypicalness and they hada bunch of other things in
common, like going on andwhatever.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, and we I mean we do find out later like, yeah,
she has intrusive thoughts.
Yes, but she's also had a lot oftrauma in her life and she's
human, you know intrusivethoughts are fairly normal, but
yeah.
So I have got two pieces offluff.
(33:07):
I'm gonna start with the theless fluffy.
During the fight scene Inoticed there were a couple of
times when you could tell thatit was Tom Ellis's stunt, double
fighting with maze.
Yeah, for sure, and I was justlike you know what.
I have no idea how difficultthis was to do.
(33:29):
Yeah, like they did.
They did a damn good job ofmaking it seamless.
But it's partially because I'mon like red alert Tom Ellis at
all times.
Yeah.
So the second piece of fluff Ihave is when a menideal is
giving maze, that the pep talkin our mojo.
(33:50):
He gives her this, like thislook where he's smiling and like
just kind of looking at herwith like admiration and I was
like I need like a gif of thatto like play.
He's just like his smile is sobeautiful and I'm just like can
(34:25):
I just re-watch this scene acouple times?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
yeah yeah, and the way she sort of like settles in,
like to put her head on hershoulder, yeah, or like snuggle
down, yeah, yeah, nice.
Those are nice pieces of fluff.
I have one In spoiler alertwhen Michael brings Chloe coffee
and it's some like crazy fancydrink with no sugar caramel,
(34:50):
whatever, no fucking way.
Whatever, no fucking way.
There is no way that thathard-boiled cop made it that far
in her life drinking that kindof a fruity drink.
She, she drinks it black, maybe.
Maybe there's like a splash ofmilk, not cream, but she's like
(35:15):
this heart.
She has to be tough as nails inorder to survive in the job.
yeah, you don't drink a coffeeorder like that as like the most
hated cop on the force fromlike back in the palmetto days.
No way that is her coffee order.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
See, I thought you were gonna get to the fact that
that coffee cup was clearlyempty.
Like no way that is her coffeeorder.
See, I thought you were goingto get to the fact that that
coffee cup was clearly emptywhen she smacks it out of his
hand.
Well, do you know that?
It's a trope?
Because it drives people nuts?
Because they consistently haveempty cups for proper reasons,
for obvious reasons, obviousreasons for proper reasons.
For obvious reasons, obviousreasons, but it is impossible
(35:57):
for an actor to hold a cup as ifit has weight without it having
weight.
And I've read, you know, justgone down rabbit holes of people
talking about, like what ifthey had like ball bearings or
something in it?
So it had the weight.
So that's where I thought youwere going with it, yours is
better, better no, it's allcharacter driven for me I also
(36:21):
love the.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That costs like seven bucks yeah right, no, I believe
that it did.
Uh, and also like no, no, I donot believe that detective ch
Chloe Decker ordered thatfoo-foo drink.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Now, to be fair, he said I got your favorite and he
listed all that stuff and shenever confirmed that that was
her favorite.
He might've just decided it was, and that was the reason why
she was like, fuck this shit,that is totally true.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
That is totally true and, based on the way he's
behaving, like I was led tobelieve that, like he knew all
this stuff, he's clearly beenstalking her celestially because
he knows about the fact thatyou know lucifer's knew the
invulnerability and the powerand he knows that she he's never
(37:18):
said I love you back.
Like he knows a lot about chloeand about chloe's whatever.
So I I you're right, that ispossible that she was like, oh,
I take a black asshole, but I itactually in.
Like it actually in some wayshas more weight if she knocks it
out of his hand and it reallyis her favorite drink, true,
(37:39):
true okay, it's.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I'm reminded of one of my favorite scully scenes
from the x-files.
The uh cigarette smoking manabducts her at one point.
At some point he's just likehow do you take your coffee?
And is like handing her a cupof coffee and she sweeps it out
of his hand unadulterated, thankyou very much because she
thinks he's gonna poison her orsomething.
So anyway, I'm just thinkingunadulterated, thank you very
(38:01):
much yeah yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Well, we have to have overthunk it enough for today,
because I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, next week or next time, dennis Haysbert.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yes, can't wait, can't wait, let's talk about God
.
Yes, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL no-transcript.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, who
does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
She does not use a hyphen,that's true.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe crime-solving devil TV show
.
And yes, we're overthinking it.
It's what?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
we do it is, and so today Em we're overthinking 507
and 508, our mojo, our mojo andspoiler alert.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
One thing I have to say is I kind of separate in my
mind the funny parts of theseepisodes from the bleaker stuff.
I remembered our mojo as, likeyou know, like the funny at the
bit, like are you cold Causehell was supposed to freeze over
, and like him posing nakedRight and like him, you know the
(01:14):
, the loser freak out.
Similarly, I remember him liketrying to figure out how to get
revenge on Dan and like that Ithink of like the serial killer
side plot and and all of that asa different episode.
Yeah, it is bleak.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I I am watching these to prepare for this.
I remember why I don't re-watchthem very often, so, but let's
dig in.
Um, let's uh start with ourmojo.
Um, there's some stuff that Iwant to over.
I made some notes so that Iwould like stay on task so we
won't have another mr rogerssituation right, well, we might,
(01:56):
but, um, okay, so let's startthe.
Let's start off with the factthat the mojo, she can mojo him,
she motors him from thebeginning, and then we realized
he has lost the ability to askpeople's desires.
I really want to overthinkwhat's happening here because
I'm like it's in some ways it'sjust sort of a comedic moment
for the TV show, like for the TVexperience, and also like sets
(02:20):
up sort of hit, a reminder ofhis emotional immaturity.
But let's actually like dig into, like what is happening, the
mechanics of itPhenomenologically, and
metaphorically, like I wasthinking about, like a couple
episodes ago, a menidealrealized that Lucifer like draws
out people's desires byreflecting back at them what
(02:43):
they desire.
Right, and I'm thinking like,maybe because he's actually now
consummated his having fallen inlove with chloe, with with sex,
like he actually achieved adesire and so now, like there's
like he's not as receptive toothers, maybe, and since she was
(03:06):
the object of that desire in a,in a deeper way than just sort
of the, you know, scratching theedge of physical, of physical
desire, like there's a deeperemotional connection with her.
That maybe that's kind ofwhat's happening with the
initial kind of transference butand loss, because it's actually
(03:26):
all about him, right, shedoesn't actually have the power
to draw out others' desires,only his, and he's lost the
power to draw out other people'sdesires.
He never was able to draw outChloe's, so maybe it's something
about the fulfilled desire inhim that makes that happen.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Does that make sense to me?
Yeah, yeah, I think.
To the show's credit, theynever explain it, even though I
think that that is a reasonableexplanation for what's happening
, because there is something.
One of the things I had thoughtabout is clearly he has lots of
experience, but would he begood for Chloe?
(04:07):
Because he can't reflect herdesire back, and so he'd be, you
know, fumbling just like anyother human being, the first
time with with a new lover.
So an interesting thought, andso I have had that thought
before multiple times.
But then this is kind of likethe other side of it is is that
(04:28):
all of his desire power is aboutdrawing out other people's
desires.
What is it that he desires?
Because nobody asks him that,and that's part of like.
The gift of what Chloe is forhim is that she can see him as a
person and is actually in aposition to say, like, what is
it that you truly want, ratherthan just you know, I'm the
(04:52):
person who gets you what youwant, which is normal reaction,
or who he normally is to otherpeople, and it's interesting
that, instead of just being likesatisfied, he freaks out.
Now, that's a part of hisemotional immaturity, but it's
(05:18):
also in some ways realistic too,with an overgrown man child,
like actually experiencingintimacy for the first time,
that he would like freak out andkind of retreat again.
I don't know what that meansfor and I feel like this was
just a writer shortcut for himbeing invulnerable again in the
(05:38):
next episode.
Like I don't feel like we canput our heads together and
overthink a way to make thatwork.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Honestly, I mean maybe, but you know we have to
try, Indeed we do and andactually sort of on that line
that you're that you're pullingon right now.
There's this, that weird momentafter they've caught Klomsky,
(06:06):
Lucifer has recovered from thedrug and they're standing there
and ella and chloe walk away andpete is left there with lucifer
and pete's like I feel like youdon't like me and whatever, and
they have that exchange.
That first time through, beforeyou know the truth about pete,
like makes total sense.
And then now running throughknowing what we know about Pete,
(06:28):
like what's his angle?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
I don't, I don't, I don't know, unless it's just all
part of the act of doing whatyou're supposed to do.
Yeah, and that conversationabout like I just have to let
her in and see what she decides,and then Chloe's response to
(06:52):
like you finally let me in bylike that's what the
transference of the mojo was.
All of that then combinedwithin the return of the
invulnerability, I thinkactually okay, you've convinced
(07:12):
me I think it makes sense thatdoes make sense.
It's a part of his freak out,that he like the, that next
taking that I mean, since heself, he self actualizes the
actualization of the next levelof intimacy, of letting her past
his defenses and and magic, andlike sort of how he interacts
(07:35):
with others.
It like realizing that that hashappened and the emotions that
that sort of draws or creates inhim is enough to make him shut
down the ways in which he hadlet her in previously.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, okay, I'll buy it.
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
But the conversation like I actually think, in terms
of storytelling and so that Icould draw that conclusion, the
conversation with Pete is very,very helpful, right?
So this, the breadcrumbs thatthe writers left for us were
that conversation with pete andthen chloe talking about letting
, letting her in.
So that's helpful, but when Ilook at pete and his motivation,
(08:20):
I don't, I mean I I guess Ijust have to sort of say like
well, that's just part of thewhole act, because I have the
same question about giving herhis key.
I mean, when you have afreaking like murder room
dungeon, yeah, maybe you don'tgive your key to the curious
forensic scientist.
(08:41):
So that you're trying to keep inthe dark.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I actually, I do want to talk about pete quite a bit.
I actually I see that, as hethinks he's smarter than
everyone, yeah, and so you seethat in in the when she's
interrogating him, like yeah, um, and so I am willing to like
there's, there's no danger to mebecause, like I'm too, smart, I
too smart, and so that fits forme.
(09:07):
I think there's also a sense of,like he was talking about I
want to feel something.
The danger of having her therewould also be flirting with
something that could maybe makehim feel something.
Yeah, and feel something, youknow, yeah.
(09:29):
And then, as for the theconversation with lucifer, he's
saying I just have to let her inand let her, like, decide for
herself, but he's he's not right, he's not actually all an act,
it's all an act.
And so, like there's I the factthat that is entirely an act.
I mean, does he even like StarTrek?
(09:50):
I mean like he was able to dothe Klingon?
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think he's got to like Star Trek.
You don't bust out Klingon.
Yeah, then another Klingonspeaker recognizes.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, so you know he's, and the fact that he's
putting on the act in front oflucifer is what feels like wow,
that's, that's tap dancing to alevel I have trouble imagining.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
but then again I'm not a serial killer, right?
And I wonder too if there'ssomething about, I mean, part of
what he said he was doing wassaying everything he was
supposed to say.
So, even in saying like itdoesn't matter if we're friends,
but she really likes you and Ireally like her, it's like, in
some ways, that was all aboutLucifer's ego, right, and so
(10:40):
maybe that actually that's whythe breadcrumbs were there,
because Pete was just picking upwhat was already there, that he
was seeing Lucifer's anxietyabout, you know, not feeling
worthy, yeah, which becomes amajor theme in the next oh,
absolutely In the next half aseason, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
So the other thing that I wanted to say about Pete
is actually it's more about Ella.
She's not sure about him atmultiple points and people were
like, oh my God, he's so great,he's so perfect for you.
And then, specifically inspoiler alert, when she's like
(11:22):
oh my God, this is too soonabout the key to Chloe.
Chloe advises her, like, enjoythis, embrace it.
And I want to talk about howcommon it is for society to talk
women out of their gut feelings.
I have been in relationshipswhere it didn't feel right and
(11:44):
people have told me like, oh myGod, he's being so good to you,
Enjoy this, Just just, and likeit blew up later.
I'm like not, you know, murderdungeon in the in the basement
later, but like still blew upand I got mad that I like
ignored my own sense andintuition.
And that's clearly going onwith with Ella, and I know some
(12:07):
of it has to do with the factthat she's convinced that she
liked bad boys and so like I'm,I'm resisting cause he's a nice
guy Right, Instead of it beinglike you know what.
I know myself and I know howI'm reacting and I should listen
, and so that's something I'vereally felt watching this, just
(12:30):
because it has happened to me onmore than one occasion and I
think it happens to I mean notjust women, it happens to
everyone.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Our society gaslights yeah, we're definitely told not
to trust our intuition, but wealso, as a species, are guilty
of self-sabotage.
I mean, both are trueabsolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
The thing is there's the, the kind of the, the
self-sabotage that she is guiltyof is not slowing down too much
, true and so, and that that'spart of part of why like, but
it's, it's difficult.
That's why I feel like everyoneneeds a therapist.
(13:11):
Like if she had talked to lindaabout this, I think linda would
have had a more nuanced andreasonable response than like,
and you know, some of this wasbecause chloe was freaking out a
little bit about the fact thatlucifer hadn't said I love you
yet, and so she would havereally liked it if if he were
right, she rushed, so she rushedthrough her advice as well.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, exactly well.
And then there was a snake thatshe needed to go address.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Yeah, literal, literal sink a little snake, um,
but that was something, becausethat's not the only time that
that that's happened with Ellaand her intuition was absolutely
correct.
And even if he hadn't turnedout to be a serial killer, that
doesn't change the fact that ifyou feel like it's too fast,
(13:58):
then it's too fast.
It's too fast, like that's youonly need one person to put on
the brakes Right, right, likethat's, you only need one person
to put on the brakes, right,right.
And that's, uh, something Iwish.
I don't know, I'm not sure howI wish they, if they they had
done anything differently oranything like that, because it
becomes clear that the advicewas terrible from uh, that from
(14:20):
chloe, and not that she didanything wrong, but just that it
was bad advice.
But you know, I just want tounderline in our show how
unhelpful it is to tell someonelike enjoy this, embrace it,
when someone is expressingdiscomfort or something right,
right, right.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
You know, thinking about our mojo and that and Pete
in that like I wonder if therewas a, from the storytelling
perspective, a missedopportunity, just minor, of like
.
While he's helping to catchklomsky, the only emotion he
really expresses is like oh no,we're gonna save a life.
This is like great.
(15:00):
Um.
I wish that we'd seen a littlebit of anger from him.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
I will say I was paying a little closer attention
than probably.
Well, so this might've been sosubtle that it wasn't actually
there, but there was a pointwhere where Chloe says like
we've caught the serial killer,we've caught the person who's
responsible for four deaths, andthere, and Pete's face kind of
(15:31):
falls, and it's very subtle,which fits with the how firmly
he's wearing his mask, but his,his face definitely changes in
that moment, and I think thatthat is, and no one's looking at
(15:52):
him at the time either.
So like I felt like that'sreasonable.
That is what would happen withsomeone who is so committed to a
fake persona.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I feel like we could have.
I I do think we could have hadhim say, like when they're in
the dark room or something, orwhen she's like apologizing, he
can say let's catch this son ofa bitch, you know like I think
he could have expressed angertoward klonsky, yeah, uh, in a
way that would have at like madesense, as like if he weren't
(16:28):
we're not who he is, just likewe have to stop this killer, but
also on retrospect for us, asthe re-watchers would have been
like oh he's pissed off at thiscopycat, yeah, which totally not
necessary, obviously, but wouldhave been satisfying, I think,
for the re-watcher to be like ohlook, he's like annoyed that
(16:48):
that he's being copied like wedon't see it there's.
They actually don't expressannoyance at his being copied
ever.
We don't see that at all, noteven in the interrogation at the
end.
I do think, considering the parthe's playing for Ella him
saying let's catch that son of abitch wouldn't fit, because
(17:10):
he's playing this very gentlecharacter yeah, um to for her
whereas, like hitting, saving alife is in keeping with the
character he's playing I guess II would argue that it could
have been written in a way thatcould have given us something
that would have been stillwithin keeping of the character
he was playing for ella and alsoexpressed a little bit of the
(17:32):
anger that the actual, althoughpart of what we hear from him is
that he has no feelings, yeah,except for in that, you know.
So, yeah, well, I, okay, he's.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I feel like he's the most chilling character Totally
Of all the bad guys.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Yeah, because he's a complete sociopath like he has
no energy for the women that hekills.
And even like when he's talking, like when she realizes he was
planning on killing her, and Imean, yeah, all most of the
other killers actually had a lotof feeling, they had a lot of
passion, and it was misplacedand it was over the top and it
was like whatever, like notworth killing for dude, but but
(18:18):
at least like the actual emotionwas comprehensible.
Absolutely, peace is not.
It's horrifying.
And and actually it'sinteresting that, thinking about
the two arcs, like that Michaelis paired here too, because I
also find Michaelincomprehensible.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's that's fair,
because he's not.
He's motivated by this.
I mean, we learn through thebig arc that it's motivated by
lust for power, but we don't seethat now.
But we don't see that now.
Learn through the big arc thatit's motivated by lust for power
, but we don't see that now.
(19:01):
But we don't see that now.
It's.
It's kind of like you know howthere are people who they just
like to tease people in a wayand like and get a.
And this was me growing up.
I was.
I was like people would say itwas easy to get my goat and like
don't be so easy to get yourgoat.
And I'm just like why do youlike getting my goat?
Yeah, I remember that, and sothat's something I struggle to
(19:23):
understand, like why someonewould enjoy pushing people's
buttons, which is exactly whatMichael does.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And it's, you know, it's interesting to to like
juxtapose, like the threebrothers that we see in these
two episodes right, like amenadeel manages to say just the
right thing that's actuallyhelpful and healing to maze
about.
You know about other examplesof things that never, never
happened before.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah, and he's so, um , like, he's like, if anyone can
get what they want, it's you.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
he's so just supportive, encouraging and
empowering.
Yeah, so he, he plays that role.
And then michael is sort of theopposite, like fueling the fear
and the and the anger and theresentment, like fueling all the
negative emotions to send herback.
And Lucifer is oblivious.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
And this is the worst possible thing.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
But not out of malice , no, no, it's completely from
the other two brothers havestrategy.
Yeah, that's true, the one touplift the other to denigrate,
yeah, and Luciferdenigratesrates, but through
obliviousness and um, it's sortof interesting, sort of
juxtaposing those three to inrelation to maze in particular,
(20:46):
but also just in general, in theway that they are interacting
with the world and like what'smotivating them.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You know what's interesting I just realized and
I I think it was probably wassupposed to be obvious and I
didn't get it but the uhjuxtaposing of chloe getting
obsessed trying to find theserial killer, with lucifer
getting obsessed planning the,the revenge on on dan, and how
important her work was and howfrivolous his was.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
And when she says, like you go, do that, I'm going
to catch a killer and he's likegreat idea.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, again, the obliviousness.
The obliviousness.
Oh yeah, that's that.
That was the point at which, uh, cause, and like Lauren German
just kind of like really opensher eyes wide, like are you
kidding me?
Um, and that was the pointwhere I was like, as much as I
adore the character of lucifer,it would be hell being in a
(21:44):
relationship with of any kind,like friendship, sibling,
totally, totally lovingrelationship.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, michael, like pete is putting on a show
like when michael shows up inthe cemetery.
Oh yeah, with dan and then hesays perhaps you've heard of me
the archangel michael, and hedoes prayer hands, yeah, yeah,
well, and what he's wearing evenis like he like it's such a
(22:13):
show, yeah, and I think likeseeing Like he, like it's such a
show, yeah, and I think likeseeing, watching it again,
seeing that show that Michaelputs on like makes Pete's show,
like the facade of it, kind ofmore nuanced for me.
Yeah, that was the prayer hands.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
That was, that was the prayer hands, that was, that
was what.
Yeah, the thing that I findinteresting also, because they
call lucifer the prince of liesand it's archangel michael who's
the liar, and I'm thinkingabout how easy it is to get away
with a lie.
Well, first of all, when itcomes from a source that you
(22:57):
don't expect to to lie, so likeand that's something that I have
, I've I've noticed like it.
Well, okay, let's put it likethis so harvey weinstein, part
of his abuse was to cultivatepeople who were going to defend
him Like Meryl Streep is one Ican think of so the people that
(23:21):
he is absolutely 100% just loyalto and kind to and never shows
any sense of nastiness.
And so when people are accusinghim, there are these, these
people in the wings going likethat's not the Harvey I know,
(23:41):
whereas someone who is living alife that seems like outside the
norm or anything like that,you're more likely to think that
they're lying just because youdon't approve of how they live.
It's a very amorphous thought,but I'm just thinking about the
fact that there is thisjuxtaposition between who we
(24:06):
expect to be truthful, who weexpect to be duplicitous, and
how that can be exploited in away that's that makes it almost
impossible for the truthfulperson, who's actually truthful,
to convince people that they'retelling the truth.
Yeah who, michael, is such adick.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
Such a dick, such a dick.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Every time I forget it Right.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
He says a great job, I feel like his American accent
wasn't quite as good.
And spoiler Every time I forgetit's Tom Atlas.
Right, he does a great job, hedoes such a good job.
I feel like his American accentwasn't quite as good in spoiler
alert, like in the scene whereshe's in the zoo, which, by the
way, an abandoned zoo, what,yeah, anyway, but I feel like
his American accent was a littleoff on a couple of words.
It stuck out, but the firsttime through I didn't notice
(24:56):
that at all.
But, yeah, total, total dick.
So a couple of things from um,from spoiler alert that I want
to mention.
Like, overthinking it, theA-list director who's been dead
over a week.
Yeah, I have a hard timebelieving that she would go
missing and not be discovered.
(25:18):
Yeah, for over a week.
Yeah, that just doesn't makesense.
Yeah, that that didn't.
Um.
They, I that was a like adetail that I think they should
have just changed.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I just yeah, that didn't make she didn't have to
be an a-list director.
She could have been an aspiringdirector or like a director who
recently had a I don't knowlike a scandal or something.
You know, there's any number ofthings they could have done.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yeah yeah, just that that like little detail gave me
a speed bump while I waswatching, yeah, and that I also.
I mean, I know they were justlike in, like the emotion or
whatever, but chloe'd only beenmissing for like a day two, yeah
, and, and they clearly likethat the body had been there for
a while, because this they werethe scent and then, the lilies
(26:03):
were and flies, like they madeit clear that this has been a
minute which I think ella andlucifer would have put together
even before they turned the,which was very dramatic you know
the blonde hair and they theyturn the chair and dramatic and
also like kind of gross thatthey were like relieved that
(26:23):
this dead woman, I mean, makessense.
They were relieved it wasn'ttheir friend, but also like, oh
yeah, so.
And then the other thing that Iwanted to just like lift up is
the choreography of the fightscene at the end while time is
frozen was amazing.
I was really good, reallyenjoying it and like the way
(26:47):
that, like it was I think it waskevin alejandro- yes, that's
what I was gonna say.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Did you see who directed?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
it like he is very talented the way he directed the
cuts were like there would belike a strike and then it would
be the other, the other pair.
That was really, reallysatisfying to watch.
Yes, yeah, I really enjoyedthat um, and like the glass
while time, and so it just sortof like hung there that was such
a cool effect.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
When I was watching like the, the, like the glass
and all of that I was like thisis what a netflix budget does
for you.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
That was I was.
That was really really cool.
I really like that.
So one other thing I'm likechecking my notes, which is why
I'm like hesitating here.
So the one other thing this isa little disjointed, but I'm
watching the time is that it'sinteresting.
Lucifer says to maze more thanonce you're just a demon.
(27:40):
Right, which is painful formaze to hear ella when they're
like chasing down the killer,and ella's like we need backup
and he's like I'm all the backupyou need and she's like you're
just an actor and it doesn'taffect him at all because it's
not true.
Yeah, and you know, I don'tknow if the writer set that up
(28:01):
on purpose, but that was aninteresting like.
I found that I noticed thatsort of interesting like
dismissal of the companions,dismissal of the person, and the
effect that it has is totallyon whether or not that identity
has been internalized.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
You know, I mean, that's so.
If someone said to me you'rejust a Wisconsinite, I'd be like
what?
Because you know, yes, I livein Wisconsin, but that's not
part of my identity.
Whereas if they said, you know,you're just a writer or you're
just a woman like that, I wouldbe like you take that back, yeah
(28:46):
, so.
Yeah, it really does have to dowith, like, whether or not this
is something that you identifywith and whether or not you have
any internalized oppressionaround it.
That's true too.
So I'm trying to think of likesomething that I am other than
like where I live.
But you're just a Birkin, butsince I am a member of that
(29:07):
family, or just a guy actually,that I if someone said that's me
, I have a little more of aproblem with it.
So, weird, weird, weird, weird.
Oh yeah, yeah, let's sidlearound the radioactivity.
(29:38):
There is one thing that I wantto mention before we get to
fluff, because I know you've gota hard stop.
This is not the first time thatsomeone has brought up Ella's
darkness.
It really affects her, and forgood reason, because you know
Pete's saying like oh, we'rejust alike, right, what I?
I really wish there was alittle bit more about what that
(30:00):
means Now.
We get into it later, and whenwe get to it I'll talk about why
I have such a problem with howthat goes down.
But her so-called darkness isjust like humanity.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, I actually wrote that down too and
then I wasn't sure if I wantedto.
Yeah, bring it up.
But yeah, that I I agree andlike, especially like lucifer,
who has met 90 of humanity orwhatever, like thinks that she's
something special, she'sstronger than she knows, and
(30:39):
Azrael, who meets a hundredpercent of humanity, at some
point singled her out to be aspecial human friend.
Like there's something specialabout Ella.
I don't think it's darkness.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And I will say, if I'm going to overthink it,
someone as dark as Pete, who hassomething I don't want to say
special, but unusual about him.
It's different.
He might see the differencethat is her specialness.
He's projecting his differenceonto it, yeah, and says I
(31:21):
recognize it.
The moment we met, it wasn'tthat he was recognizing the same
, the same difference, but thatthere is a difference.
I agree, what is dark aboutella is just what is human about
all of us.
Yeah, yeah, but there is theshow.
Within the universe of the show, ella lopez is special.
(31:45):
She's not a typical human.
I mean billions of people.
Azrael visits her, right, Imean, and now azrael doesn't
meet most of them while they'restill living, but some of them.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
She's not the only right, yeah, but as far as we
know, she said something like ithappens sometimes, like when,
when she what happened with withella in the car right, so and
so there are, but she doesn'tshow up as Ray Ray the ghost for
the rest of them.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
For the rest of them, yeah, for everyone who's had a
near-death experience, yeah,yeah, if I'm going to overthink
that which was atypical in Ella,cause that's the only way he
(32:41):
knows atypicalness and they hada bunch of other things in
common, like going on andwhatever.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Well, and we I mean we do find out later like, yeah,
she has intrusive thoughts.
Yes, but she's also had a lot oftrauma in her life and she's
human, you know intrusivethoughts are fairly normal, but
yeah.
So I have got two pieces offluff.
(33:07):
I'm gonna start with the theless fluffy.
During the fight scene Inoticed there were a couple of
times when you could tell thatit was Tom Ellis's stunt, double
fighting with maze.
Yeah, for sure, and I was justlike you know what.
I have no idea how difficultthis was to do.
(33:29):
Yeah, like they did.
They did a damn good job ofmaking it seamless.
But it's partially because I'mon like red alert Tom Ellis at
all times.
Yeah.
So the second piece of fluff Ihave is when a menideal is
giving maze, that the pep talkin our mojo.
(33:50):
He gives her this, like thislook where he's smiling and like
just kind of looking at herwith like admiration and I was
like I need like a gif of thatto like play.
He's just like his smile is sobeautiful and I'm just like can
(34:25):
I just re-watch this scene acouple times?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
yeah yeah, and the way she sort of like settles in,
like to put her head on hershoulder, yeah, or like snuggle
down, yeah, yeah, nice.
Those are nice pieces of fluff.
I have one In spoiler alertwhen Michael brings Chloe coffee
and it's some like crazy fancydrink with no sugar caramel,
(34:50):
whatever, no fucking way.
Whatever, no fucking way.
There is no way that thathard-boiled cop made it that far
in her life drinking that kindof a fruity drink.
She, she drinks it black, maybe.
Maybe there's like a splash ofmilk, not cream, but she's like
(35:15):
this heart.
She has to be tough as nails inorder to survive in the job.
yeah, you don't drink a coffeeorder like that as like the most
hated cop on the force fromlike back in the palmetto days.
No way that is her coffee order.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
See, I thought you were gonna get to the fact that
that coffee cup was clearlyempty.
Like no way that is her coffeeorder.
See, I thought you were goingto get to the fact that that
coffee cup was clearly emptywhen she smacks it out of his
hand.
Well, do you know that?
It's a trope?
Because it drives people nuts?
Because they consistently haveempty cups for proper reasons,
for obvious reasons, obviousreasons for proper reasons.
For obvious reasons, obviousreasons, but it is impossible
(35:57):
for an actor to hold a cup as ifit has weight without it having
weight.
And I've read, you know, justgone down rabbit holes of people
talking about, like what ifthey had like ball bearings or
something in it?
So it had the weight.
So that's where I thought youwere going with it, yours is
better, better no, it's allcharacter driven for me I also
(36:21):
love the.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
That costs like seven bucks yeah right, no, I believe
that it did.
Uh, and also like no, no, I donot believe that detective ch
Chloe Decker ordered thatfoo-foo drink.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Now, to be fair, he said I got your favorite and he
listed all that stuff and shenever confirmed that that was
her favorite.
He might've just decided it was, and that was the reason why
she was like, fuck this shit,that is totally true.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
That is totally true and, based on the way he's
behaving, like I was led tobelieve that, like he knew all
this stuff, he's clearly beenstalking her celestially because
he knows about the fact thatyou know lucifer's knew the
invulnerability and the powerand he knows that she he's never
(37:18):
said I love you back.
Like he knows a lot about chloeand about chloe's whatever.
So I I you're right, that ispossible that she was like, oh,
I take a black asshole, but I itactually in.
Like it actually in some wayshas more weight if she knocks it
out of his hand and it reallyis her favorite drink, true,
(37:39):
true okay, it's.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
I'm reminded of one of my favorite scully scenes
from the x-files.
The uh cigarette smoking manabducts her at one point.
At some point he's just likehow do you take your coffee?
And is like handing her a cupof coffee and she sweeps it out
of his hand unadulterated, thankyou very much because she
thinks he's gonna poison her orsomething.
So anyway, I'm just thinkingunadulterated, thank you very
(38:01):
much yeah yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Well, we have to have overthunk it enough for today,
because I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yes, next week or next time, dennis Haysbert.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Yes, can't wait, can't wait, let's talk about God
.
Yes, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
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