April 25, 2024 • 47 mins
“Resting Devil Face” is a delightful romp the sisters want to revisit more often. “Daniel Espinoza: Naked and Afraid” may be both of their least favorite.
In “Resting Devil Face,” the celestial siblings’ relationship digs in to the very human experience of realizing one’s parent is vulnerable. In a satisfying dovetailing of the case-of-the-week and the celestial story line, we see the unintended consequences of parenting choices and also receive the Hollywood trope that so many of us still need to hear: you already have what you need to be happy and/or worthy.
“Daniel Espinoza: Naked and Afraid” provides quite a bit of fan service and clues to what is going on through campiness and subtext which neither Emily nor Tracie are particularly skilled at seeing on first-watch. The sisters agree that it takes a certain degree of cruelty to execute such an elaborate and emotionally taxing prank, and neither of them like to think of Lucifer as cruel.
We realize that “a theological aside” could have been the subtitle of this podcast and take a moment to plug our other project, Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects (including Deep Thoughts about Stupid Sh*t), to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi there, hello, I am here with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker.
She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I do, it's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken.
No hyphen, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Trips people up Together.
We are Lightbringers where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we're overthinking it,totally overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
That's what we do.
That's what we do.
And today we are overthinking511 and 512.
Is that right?
That's correct 511 and 512.
So resting devil face andDaniel Espinoza naked and afraid
.
Yes, daniel Espinoza Naked andAfraid.
Yes, so this is the first timeI've rewatched Daniel Espinoza
(01:11):
Naked and Afraid since the firsttime I watched it through.
Same for me, not when I returnto, but we'll get there, we'll
get there, we'll get there.
Start at the beginning.
It's a very good place to start.
So resting devil face.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Start at the beginning.
It's a very good place to start.
So Resting Devil Face.
So I want to mention thatResting Devil Face starts with
the song Believer by ImagineDragons, which is the favorite
song of one of my children.
My children tend to have amusical taste that can best be
described as earnest young whiteman on his knees, singing with
(01:51):
his eyes closed.
And when he first startedliking that song I was surprised
because I was like where youknow, like where did you hear
this song?
And like I recognize that itwas on Lucifer somewhere and I
(02:11):
could not remember what episodeit was in.
So I've been looking for it allthis time and finally I was
like there it is.
But I also want to say was very, very good sound cue and like
combination of the the song withthe action, which I'm sure is
why they did it, because youknow they're like all right,
(02:33):
united front, and then it'sfirst things first, and then you
know, and then they stop, stopthe music the cinematography.
The direction in that firstscene is just so delightful,
with the slow-mo of them, likewalking toward each other and
like and the, the, when they,when they do the, the um, as
they're walking down the stairs,they like bump bump fists, but
(02:56):
sideways, which?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
is like so brotherly, so cute, and like, like, like
lucifer, like checking his cuffs, like he always does, and and
that's in slow-mo and then inreal time with them, like
talking, um, you know, in normaltime and then slow-mo again and
then talking.
There's just something reallysatisfying about that setup
(03:22):
especially and and this thesetup, and like a minute deals,
like you can trust me, I'm withyou, and then immediately,
immediately, like it doesn'teven take a full, he's fine like
one minute before.
So much for the united front.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, and it's one of the things I really appreciate
about this storyline and thisepisode is it strikes me that
the writers have been throughthe issue of dealing with a
parent aging and needing morehelp, not being as independent,
that sort of thing, because it'svery much all of those complex
(04:04):
emotions, very much the likerecreating your childhood roles
in the family, where Amenadielimmediately folds and is like
but he says he's fine, I'm sureit's okay, and he's the eldest
and the youngest rebellious oneis the one who's like no, we got
to be firm.
I had forgotten how delightfulthis episode was, because I've
(04:30):
rewatched it at least a coupleof times, but it's not one of
the ones that I go back to and Iwas like oh, it should be, this
is fun yeah, it's fun, it's funand there's a lot of fan
service in it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Fun, it's fun, and there's a lot of fan service in
it too, like in the gym, in theboxing gym.
I don't know if you noticed,but I actually paused it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Like the ads.
They're all things that we'veseen in the show.
Yeah, there's like top meat andAzaria the singer.
Yeah, the singer, the cabin,which was that reality show.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
That's what it was.
Yeah, yeah, there was one thatI didn't recognize.
The top left corner is hollabay.
Oh yeah, I know that is so.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
That was um, the rapper who was killed and then
taken over by a demon in, uh,the end of season four yeah yeah
yeah, yeah yeah yeah, just gotit yeah so that that was a fun
easter egg like fun fan servicethere with that.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, so, uh, so that was pretty cool.
Some of the things that, ifwe're gonna overthink it, like I
get where they were going andthey had to, you know, they had
to really like show us, not justtell us that, like god set gods
, it's really hard to use male.
No, uh, god set god in this.
(05:47):
Okay, we can in this universe.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
God is male.
Yeah, and, and we can say hisbird is male yes, and so when we
say god, we're talking aboutthe character, we're not talking
about the actual hashemwhatever that is.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So, yeah, when that's his first, god sets his powers
aside so that he can experiencewhat it's like to be like
Lucifer and like I get wherethey're going.
And then they had to, like theymade it funny, you know, like
that he, when they close theireyes, everything disappears,
like, but I don't know god wouldknow that I think so.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I mean, god is all-knowing, yeah and so god
would know what it would be liketo experience humanity.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
You'd think I mean, I don't, yeah, there's, there was
something about that that justdidn't quite sit.
Yeah, right with me, and likeit was useful for storytelling
effect insofar as like maze wasgoing to try and kill him and
she couldn't if he hadn't sortof set his powers aside and you
(06:56):
know, and, and the comediceffect of like him having to go
to the bathroom for the firsttime that one I believed.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Like that one, I'll give that one.
Like not realizing it goes darkwhen you close your eyes.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
No, but the like, almighty being just being like,
yeah, I don't need to worryabout that right, and also he
knew what it was.
It's not like it was like whatis this feeling?
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I appreciated that, you know, and also they needed to
continue the.
You know he's losing, he'slosing it, he's slipping by,
(07:28):
literally losing the powers.
Oh, that's an interestingmetaphor made real Losing it,
losing it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Anyway, no-transcript .
(08:06):
There's no lack of storiesabout, you know, people dealing
with Alzheimer's and dementiaand stuff like that, but this is
the first one that I've seenthat I really felt like I was
just, like I could feel this ina way that was different and in
part because, you know, I canthink of like one or two
examples, two examples of of um,and maybe it's cause I saw it
(08:28):
when I was a teenager.
There's a movie calledsomething like Raising Hope or
something like that, with withum, what's her name?
Uh, sandra Bullock in it andher father or grandfather has
Alzheimer's, but you don't see,you don't meet him until after
he's just no longer there.
So something about this, aboutseeing like the he's still the
(08:51):
parent you know, and yet he'snot, and it's terrifying, like
that is really visceral.
Yeah, yeah, hope floats.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
That's what it's called.
It's called hope floats.
Yeah, raising hope was a tv.
That was a tv show.
Yeah it was very different yeah,there's also something in this
episode interesting aboutthinking about sort of who we
are inside, right like the, theconversation that when god says
to lucifer you're the, why didyou choose that face?
(09:26):
That's how you see yourself.
That I think we haven't.
We talked about the fact thatthey self-actualize, but I don't
know that we've really had thatspelled out for us before.
And having it in that way itasked in that way from God was
really to me a very poignantmoment.
(09:49):
They didn't linger over it,which was fine, but was really
really interesting to me in thatmoment, in sort of in that
moment.
And then the other piece ofsort of I don't, I want, I
started to say mental health uh,kind of poignancy, but it's
(10:10):
more than that.
It's, it is that.
But it's also just sort of like,like mindset moment is in the,
at the very end for maze, whenuh, she says yeah, but a demon
can't grow a soul, god says,can't she right?
And that's sort of like.
I mean, in some ways the wizardof oz has been like like we've
(10:34):
been getting this message forforever.
Like you already haveeverything you need.
Like this is a hollywood trope,but I think we keep coming back
to it in hollywood because weneed it.
Yeah, yeah, you know, likethere's this constant,
especially in this late stage,capitalism, the culture scape in
which we find ourselves,there's this constant sense
(10:54):
hellscape, I think.
You mean, I was gonna call itthat, but it's a shoe fence, but
um, there is this, thisconstant sense that, like, I'll
be happy when, I'll be worthywhen, and it's always about like
, what you don't have now.
Yeah, yeah.
Like when I get this thing,when I get the new that car,
(11:18):
when I get the promotion, when Ilose 10 pounds when I went in,
whatever the thing is, it's outof reach this is always on the
other side of it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it never is, becausethere's always another thing.
And so to have this like underthis, this message underlined
like no, you already have it,you already have what you need,
(11:38):
to be happy to be worthy in a ina very I mean it's not a
metaphorical kind of worthinessshe thinks she doesn't have a
soul.
So that, paired with that's howyou see yourself in that face.
Why did you choose that is areally sort of interesting
(11:59):
pairing that they don't lingerover right.
They don't, they don't spell itout for us, they don't, I don't
.
Nobody actually says like oh, Iwas worthy the whole time.
You know, what I was lookingfor was here all the time.
Like we never actually hearthose words and in fact the
implication is that she somehowhas matured and grown as a whole
(12:20):
along the way.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
but what's interesting is that it dovetails
very nicely with the, theconversation in that episode
about parenting, becausethroughout this episode and they
do it like sometimes the thecase works, sometimes it doesn't
they did a really nice job ofdovetailing the cases, case and
(12:42):
the theme in this one becausewith chloe and trixie, with the
almighty, the the boxer, um, the, the the doctor, you know,
playing god the trainer, playinggod he actually says those
words yeah the, the general, whocan't live up to her mother's
expectations.
And then the colonel oh, that'sright, her mother's the general.
(13:04):
And then god realizing, when hesees lucifer's face, how he has
screwed up as a parent.
Because to me, what that?
Like the conversation he haswith trixie, which I really
appreciated he talks about howhe was aiming for this one thing
he wanted his kids toself-actualize.
(13:26):
He wanted to give them freewill so that they could become
what they were meant clear tohim.
Oh, I thought I was doing theright thing and I wasn't.
(13:47):
And that's, I feel like thatinforms what god says to maze,
because instead of him givingher mysterious ways again,
because that's how he usuallyspeaks he actually says can't
she?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
in a way that, like, gives her the message more
directly yeah, although in hismysterious ways, right, he
doesn't just say like youalready have, yeah and that's.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
That's one of those things where I find that also
like realistic, in that, even ifsomeone decides like I need to
be different, I need to changehow I deal with people, they'll
still be themselves right, rightlike he's.
He like I need to be different,I need to change how I deal
with people, they'll still bethemselves right, right like
he's.
He's never going to be able tobe like.
I will spell it out for you, andhere's a flow chart you know
like that's never going to behow he does things, but that's.
(14:36):
I really um appreciated that.
And then the the conversationthat chloe and trixie have at
the end of the episode.
In some ways I felt like we'vetalked before about how, like
parenting on tv is not like realparenting.
You know so like your, yourkids, having a meltdown and
(14:58):
you're like, why are you upset?
Well, it's because of this, youknow.
And a kid who is acting out tothe point of stealing her
mother's handcuffs andhandcuffing a bully to the
cafeteria table, which does feellike it's within character.
(15:19):
I mean, we met Trixie after shejust kicked a mean girl in her
touch-touch square Right, but atthe same time, that's
premeditated.
Trixie after she just kicked amean girl in her
no-no-touch-touch square Right,but at the same time, that's
premeditated, it's a pretty bigdeal what she's done.
But that conversation they havewhere Trixie is able to say
(15:40):
okay, so we all make mistakes,we all are in denial, we all you
know not dealing with thingsand I know you're unhappy and I
know it's because of lucifer andI'm I really don't like that
and then her mom being like Idon't always know what I'm doing
and being able to have thatconversation makes great tv, but
(16:08):
as a mother, as the mother ofan 11 year old yeah, only child
girl, yeah, yeah, well it it's.
You know it's like the, thesitcom trope, you know it all
wraps up in 22 minutes.
It's also so like the idea thatan 11 year old could be that in
touch with her feelings, evenafter talking to linda, who is
(16:29):
like the world's best therapistand boy.
Is that not appropriate for me?
It's so enmeshed in heralliance lives.
Anyway, even with that like the, the, how in touch Trixie is
with her feelings, how muchshe's willing to forgive Chloe
for not seeing things.
(16:50):
Uh, how much you're right, it's, it's.
It doesn't really fit.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Also, just like maybe maybe my kid would notice if I
was sad for a while.
I mean I guess she would, but Ijust that that was the one she
would have the emotionalmaturity to really see the
(17:16):
constellations.
In that same way, I mean shewould either be worried that it
was something she had done orshe'd just be mad at me.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Right, that was the thing that I found myself like
going like about that, and mythought was that it was not
appropriate for a parent to betalking to their child about
their love life.
Yeah, and so that trixie wouldnotice that something in her
(17:41):
mother's love life is making herunhappy is the sort of thing
that, like, either shows thatthis kid is a little parentified
or that I mean well, I meanit's, it's tv writers but yeah
yeah, I think, like when Iwatched it the first time and
even this time, when linda saysthat like it's actually often,
like you know, mis misplacedanger or whatever that actual
(18:04):
term she uses, because you'reangry, angry at somebody else.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
She wouldn't have been angry at Lucifer, the anger
would have been at Chloe.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, well cause that's safe, because it's safe
to be angry at her mother,because her mother will always
love her.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
And even the conversation then that Chloe has
with her.
Like I tried to protect you inmy head.
I'm like like that time whenmalcolm almost killed you both
yeah, like yeah, I mean not thatchloe did anything wrong, in
that I'm not like I'm not sayingthat chloe failed it to protect
.
I'm just saying, like, trixie'sbeen through some real shit.
(18:41):
She's been through some stuffseriously traumatizing some
things.
Yeah, um, you know, and thenthere was the car accident, when
, um, when uriel first came totown and like I just, I don't
know, I I just feel like this isnot when.
(19:01):
Trixie would be mad at lucifer,and she wouldn't be mad at
Lucifer at all, it would beChloe.
Chloe would be the person shewould want to kick in the shins.
Yeah, it was much better TV tohave Trixie show up at the
penthouse His hair is majesticand you know it, and you know it
and have her kick him in theshins.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Like that was great TV, but it didn't feel realistic
well, and that that was onething about the conversation
between trixie and chloe is thatit felt like the kind of
conversation they would have 10years from now.
Yeah, yep, and I appreciated itas like kind of the, the sort
(19:43):
of like childhood post-mortem,because it's too soon to have
that kind of conversation,because Trixie's still very much
a kid he's 11 yeah yeah, so,but the conversation between God
and Trixie I thought wasfantastic yeah and even even the
(20:04):
?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
um sort of confusion on Trixie's face when he says
I've never been a kid and she'slike okay then, but that was
like it was exactly what sheneeded because he was validating
her experience.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Like you know, she's like I've never been a stop
being childish which, yeah, it'snot my favorite thing about
(20:43):
myself as a parent but, uh,there are times where, like, one
of my kids will start with likeever since x happened, and I'll
be like, oh, for goodness sakes, I'll be like, stop, he's only
got a decade's worth ofexperience total.
This is a big deal, yeah, butyou know, yeah, because we
(21:04):
forget, we forget how tough itis, or we never were kids.
Yeah, I I do want to say I feellike god is the only person who
has had the appropriatereaction to getting a hug from
Ella.
Like I love that interaction,but I also, like there was a
(21:28):
little part of me that got alittle teary-eyed when he was
just like, thank you so much foryour support.
It has definitely beenappreciated.
And like there was somethinglike you know how, inside the
actor's studio, they would endwith like the same, like I think
seven or 10 questions, and thelast one was you arrive at the
pearly gates, what do you wantGod to say to you?
(21:50):
And like, like that would bepretty good.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, shall we move on to theour least, our, our least
favorite?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
yes, at least yeah well, I think of the of the
series series maybe it just manso dan espinoza, naked and
afraid.
Dan Espinosa, naked and Afraid,is one that really exposes my
(22:26):
Achilles heel as a professionalEnglish major storyteller, lover
of lore, and I think some ofthis has to do with the fact,
with my ADHD, I take people attheir word, I take things at
(22:46):
their word, so I do not getsubtext on first reading or
viewing and I often it takesseveral iterations before I'm
like oh yeah, there's thesubtext.
So I believed everything wasactually happening while I was
watching it.
What's interesting is what andthis may have something to do
(23:08):
with the fact that he doesn'twatch the show, but I was
watching it this afternoon myhusband came in and and was kind
of like watching over myshoulder and even though at the
at the end, when all of a suddenthe music starts playing, my
husband goes like what ishappening right now?
He did say he's like, yeah, Iknew something was up, because
(23:31):
it was so campy, it was so muchcampier than usual.
I was like I just didn't thefirst time I watched it.
It just did not occur to me.
Time I watched it.
I just it just did not occur tome, and so I know that is a big
part of the reason why I didn'tlike it because I was suffering
with Dan, me too thinking itwas real even if it's, even
(23:52):
knowing it wasn't real.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Even in this rewatch, which is only my second time
through, I watched it last nightknowing, I mean, I've seen
before.
I know that this is allorchestrated by Lucifer and that
Benito is not actually dead andum, you know all the things.
I still was suffering with Danbecause Dan thought it was real
(24:14):
and I don't.
Maybe I have greater empathyfor fictional characters than
the average viewer because Iknow this is one of, like, the
fan favorites.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I know people adore this episode and they think that
like because you fucking shotme, daniel is like the funniest
line ever and I'm like I don't,it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Chloe tried.
Chloe tried to poison him.
Like it it wouldn't have hurthim, but she thought that it
would you know the I found iteasier to watch this time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So this is only my second time viewing this episode
.
Same reason found it easier towatch this time in the same.
For the same reason that, um, Ican handle any terrible thing
that happens to people, as longas it's prologue, as long as
it's like background orbackstory.
Um, if it's happening in frontof me like it's happening in
(25:14):
real time, I'm not okay, but aslong as it's backstory, I'm like
well, I know they made itthrough, so it's.
And there were a number oflittle hints and like one of the
things that Lucifer said is youknow, this wouldn't have worked
on Chloe, because she's adetective, and Dan's like so am
I.
And I was I was realizing thereare a number of things that
(25:34):
really should have like kind ofindicated that this, this isn't
what you think.
It is Like what can you cause?
I'm not sure, oh, sure, so okay.
The one that I remember thinkingat the time, the first time I
saw it was Benito's head in thebox, and I was just like wow,
they're going back to that same.
Well, because Dan has alreadyreceived a head in a box, so,
(25:58):
like that, that was like okay,that's right, received a head in
a box, so, like that, that waslike, okay, that's.
That's just odd to me that theydid that, and I thought
something similar about poisonand antidote, because that's
another, yeah, another.
The one that I did not catchbut was very obvious in
retrospect was when he shows upat the penthouse, what Lucifer
(26:21):
is playing is that dun dun dun,dun, dun dun.
That is like very clearly likenot doing anything, you know,
like you know, because if he'sactually playing for himself, he
plays like, yeah, he doesn'tplay classical Classics, never,
yeah, classical.
So things like that.
(26:43):
There was a little bit of overthe topness about some stuff,
but I still was like horrifiedwhen the bullets started flying
the first time around, this timearound, because I knew it
wasn't real that, but that theanguish he feels at that moment,
like even everything up to that, I feel like, is more
forgivable than the anguish hefeels at seeing people who, like
(27:05):
he cares about in terms of mazeand then are, you know, friends
of his in a funk at thebeginning and he's talking about
(27:27):
, like he says, to louise beforethe whole thing starts.
He's like you know, nothingmatters, and so like nothing
matters.
And by going through thisordeal he realized that things
do matter and he reconnects withhis own sense of morality and
(27:48):
his own sense of why he doeswhat he does, who he truly
believes he is and what he'swilling to do.
And, as Lucifer points out, Iknew whenever you had to make a
decision, you'd try to do theright thing, and so, like
reconnecting him with that isvery much something that he
(28:12):
needed.
Like he says, I, I needed thisyeah and in.
In a way, this was just like themassive version of Lucifer,
like teasing him, which at thebeginning, like Chloe says, like
I know it hurts you that youcan't tease him right now,
because that's how you two showthat you're friends and show
(28:33):
your affection.
It's just, it's rough.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It just feels gross to me, like the whole episode
just feels gross, I mean, arethere, are fun and funny moments
, yeah, um, like in particularwhen the improv crew shows up
and each of them is dressedtough but like different tough
right like, there's like thepunk rock guy and there's like
the um the the uh like 30sgangster the main guy.
(29:03):
The main guy, the only guy whoactually speaks, is like a 30s
gangster, yeah, but they're alllike, they're all different,
they're all different kinds ofthey do not look like, do not
match.
Yeah, they're all tough, butit's like different
interpretations of tough, likethat is really funny and like
makes a certain amount of sense,that if you just tell a group
of improv people to look tough,that was just kind of fun and
(29:27):
there were.
There are some funny moments.
I mean even the bike shop thatturns out to be a cycle, like a
blinged out bicycle shop, likewell, and then the uh, the like,
the the group therapy sessionthey end up having, which is
pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, there's definitely some funny moments in
there.
I've said it before, but theway my spouse put it was that it
was very campy.
Can kind of help blunt the paina little bit of watching this
character, who I do truly careabout.
(30:06):
Like I very much like Dan as acharacter, and I feel bad.
They make Kevin Alejandro looklike such a goober because he is
such a phenomenally attractiveman and he looks so gooberish.
I think he does this, so hischin looks weird, I don't know.
Yeah, and like to be.
I think kevin alejandro had funwith this episode, which that
(30:28):
also kind of makes it a littleeasier for me, but it reminds me
of.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's a um, I watched all of how I met your
mother and I I'm not proud ofthat I mean, if it makes you
feel any better, I watchedreally like most of it, like all
but the last season, so yeah,so it may have been the last
season, maybe in the eighth, Idon't even remember.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like by the time we got to the last season, where
was I pissed off anyway forbarney's bachelor Ted, since
Barney so often wants things tobe epic or legend wait for it,
derry so for his bachelor party,ted ends up creating the worst
night that Barney's ever had,because that is the only way to
(31:19):
top all the legendary stuff he'salready done.
So he's very stressed out nowbecause Barney's kind of a piece
of crap.
That one didn't bother me,although there were still like I
get, I feel, secondhandembarrassment very strongly Me
too.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
We have that same thing.
I don't remember that episodeif I saw it, but the difference
too is that like probably nobodydied.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Um, they, they.
I don't think anybody died.
I don't remember there was thethey.
They ended up getting ralphmacchio and the guy who played
the bad guy in um, the karatekid yeah, the blonde guy who's
like, I guess, the protagonistin that new in cobra kai, yeah,
(32:02):
anyway, so anyway uh, they gotthat like and there was
something about that, andsomebody got beat up and I I
don't remember the detailsbecause it's been such a such a
time since I've seen it, but butyeah, there's, it's the, the
fear of death to me like, butthey were being responsive,
feeling responsible for thedeaths of so many other people,
so many people.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Benito is not his fault, but everybody else,
everybody else, and the bodycount is really high, oh my
goodness, I mean really high,like all the, all the russian
guys, all the uh, all of luis'sgang luis's gang and the low
sexes low sexes and the and hisimprov and the improv so like
(32:45):
honestly and maze so like I mean, like I still carry like major
guilt from when I had to my dogput down Like I it's not funny,
it's not a prank, it's justcruel.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
And I don't like thinking of Lucifer as cruel,
because I feel the same way.
That's part of the point ofthis show for me that I glom
onto is that he's not in factcruel, and that's part of why
being the king of hell was suchpunishment so painful for him.
Yes, because he's not in factcruel, and so seeing him as
(33:29):
cruel is really hard for me, butI can't.
I have a hard time seeing itany other way.
Yeah, and even the, because youfucking shot me, daniel, like,
but you're the devil and yeah,and nothing happened.
And even if you had- even ifchloe had been there and you had
been vulnerable as soon as shegot far enough away, mm-hmm, you
(33:53):
well, she was there, but he allof a sudden was I know.
But even if he, even if he hadstill been vulnerable, if she
just immediately, instead ofrunning to him, if she had
immediately run as far away aspossible, presumably he would
have recovered.
Plus, he was wearing a littlestring which I know we haven't,
we just forgot about, but yeahyeah.
(34:18):
And we know that Daniel ismortal and was under the
influence of michael, so likegive a guy a fucking pass yeah,
yeah or I mean even be mad athim, but like 5.4 million
dollars and making him thinkthat he has caused the death of
two dozen people.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I will say the $5.4 million to me feels like an
indication to Dan how much Danmeans to Lucifer In that, like I
know, I know.
But when Grasp in to make thisnot cruel, no, it's well.
(35:01):
Here's the thing pranks arecruel like practical jokes are
cruel.
There's a book that I love, thatI I listen to to fall asleep to
, where there's a practicaljoker who's a minor character
and then the main character islike, oh, I knew it couldn't
have been my friend, becausethere's not a dram of meanness
in him and you have to have youhave to be mean to commit
(35:22):
practical jokes and like not adram of meanness.
I love that, that description.
So I just I cannot wrap my headaround the cruelty of a
practical joke.
I can wrap my head around theidea of someone valuing a
(35:46):
friendship in a way that theycan't talk to each other about
because they can't, and the onlyway they can show it is by
throwing themselves into I meanmeticulous planning at a
ridiculous amount of money,because the the way that they
they connect with each other isthrough being jerks to each
(36:09):
other.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, so it's not going to be like yeah, yeah,
which?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
yeah, I, I, I loved his, his decorations in his, in
his apartment.
Yeah, yeah, I also love thefact his apartment His home.
Yeah, yeah, I also love thefact you only have kombucha.
What if you have guests?
I have some LaCroix orsomething.
I have some LaCroix.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I will never like this episode.
I will never see what otherpeople see in it.
I wonder if someone who is moreable to see subtext, more able
to recognize being winked atearlier, earlier, would have
liked it better, even even withthe knowing that that dan didn't
(36:53):
know.
But I can see in the same waythat people really like when
they can guess who who done itin a murder mystery.
If you can see, like before dandoes that, it's uh like.
Oh, this is a setup.
There's something enjoyableabout that.
It's the.
It's the um traumatic ironythat you love.
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
So maybe like when lucifer says I never lie and I
know this is going to goperfectly, yeah, he means for
him, yeah yeah, well, and heeven, he even says directly he's
like it's all about appearances, yeah, and you know, there
there was like.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
The other one that I noticed was when Dan says how do
I look?
And he's like pretty goodactually.
That was the response to eachother back in season one when
Lucifer got shot by Malcolm.
Come to think of it, I think nowell, malcolm was supposed to
come shoot him and Dan camerunning to stop him and Lucifer
had been shot by someone elsebut was fine, and so he's like
(37:54):
how do I look?
Pretty good actually is whatDan said to him.
So there were like Easter eggsin there.
So that's another thing thatI'm imagining.
The fandom likes is like oh, Irecognize that from that and I
recognize that from that.
Yeah, but you know, it's justso hard to decouple the meekness
.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, that's agreed.
That's how I feel about it,yeah, yeah.
Well, we've been talking for aminute, we've been overthinking
for a minute, so maybe can wetransition to fluff.
Are you ready?
Absolutely, I would love totalk fluff.
Actually, I don't know if thisis fluff or not.
(38:32):
I love in this episode indaniela spinoza, naked and
afraid, the scene with ella whenshe's working on her novel
about I mean, I wish they hadbrought that back again about
the forensic scientist who talksto ghosts, who's cheerful but
also has, you know, the darknessinside her.
I thought that was reallyadorable to hear her talking
about herself in that way and itreally.
I say adorable I mean endearingand also like poignant I, I love
(38:57):
that moment of.
Ella sort of like gettingexcited about yeah novel, which
was a self-insert, you know, orsemi-autobiobiographical, in
such a pleasant way.
Anyway, I love that moment yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, that was pretty great.
I also like I reallyappreciated that she had
actually thought through all ofthat the pig's blood and the
ground beef For the brain matteryes, yeah, and Lucifer knew
that that would happen in someway yeah anyway, yeah yeah, I,
(39:41):
you know that's that.
That also shows the amount ofrespect that lucifer has for for
dan, because he never at anypoint worried that Dan would
actually try to hurt her, hurtthe Svetlana.
I mean like there was noconcern whatsoever that that was
what was going to happen.
No, I mean that that's.
That's a huge sign of respect.
Shouldn't have put him in thatposition.
(40:07):
But anyway, very, very littlefluff piece.
But when god gets the rattleback from charlie and he's like
all right, I'm gonna take mypowers back, I'm sitting there
thinking like it's not gonna belights.
He's god, it's just just, it'sjust back.
(40:28):
No, there doesn't need to be alike, a special effect lights
and a fan, yeah oh my goodness,yeah, that was that bothered, me
oh, linda's response.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
It was pretty great what the hell just happened.
Actually, I don't think I thinkshe's, yeah, but still, yeah,
the hell just happened.
I don't think I think, butstill, the hell was implied.
Yeah, that was pretty great.
You know, it's interesting tooin terms of fluff, when God is
in the airplane with the badguys, with the colonel and her
(41:08):
crew, and he's like telling babystories about Lucifer and her
crew and he's like telling likebaby stories about lucifer and
the rebellion and like they'relike laughing and charmed, like
what are they imagining?
Yeah, yeah, like are theyimagining a seven-year-old or
(41:28):
like yeah, because what weoverheard was just confusing Odd
.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Very odd.
Oh, it's kind of fluff, it'skind of just a small detail.
But when they're looking forthey, they talk to the the
surgeon and she's like, oh yeah,it was the drug I think, ysd
and uh is like you know, it'svery exclusive, like, oh yes,
very exclusive, okay, what doesit look like?
And she's like small pink andand he's like, okay, so what
(42:04):
kind of pink?
And boucanvia, yeah, um, andI'm just like we should have
probably known when she was ableto say, like it's ballet,
slipper pink.
After having she only saw itonce once, whereas like small
and pink should have probablybeen all she could handle if she
(42:26):
never actually seen it right,right, so maybe not even
recognize it, yeah, when hefound it.
Yeah, like I think so yeah,yeah, that should have been in
cater yeah for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Well, that was, that was there for us, right?
Yeah.
So here's another piece offluff a couple of episodes ago,
when lucifer offers god a donutin the precinct and God says I
prefer the ones with sprinkles.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Or with cereal on it.
Is that what it was?
It was yes.
It had like fruit loops on it.
Got it.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Well, they brought that back.
The kind of donut he prefers iswhat he offered to Trixie,
which I thought was Iappreciated that Lovely, that's
nice.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, it's nice little, nice little continuity,
oh Dan being blown up.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Oh yeah, I forgot that was in this episode and he
remembers it.
Yes, yeah, yeah, and Lucifer'slike did you do that on purpose?
Of course, I meant to put himback together.
It's a great line, it's a greatline, dennis Haysbert.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Like if you'd asked me when I'd seen the first three
or four seasons, like if itmade any sense to cast an actor
as God in this show, I wouldhave been like, absolutely not.
Actor as god in this show, Iwould have been like, absolutely
not.
I still like to this day.
I'm just like it's a little oddjust because of how much god
would have to answer for evenjust within this universe.
(44:00):
But man, they did a nice joband part of it was dennis
haisberg I also want to mentionI feel like I saw db woodside
somewhere talking about how muchit meant to him to have God
played by a man who looks likehim and I was thinking of that
when they were asking thebartender where he was.
(44:22):
And he's like tall,broad-shouldered, piercing eyes.
That's a little like me.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, no, that was not at all lost on me.
That's a little like me, yeah,yeah.
No, that was not at all lost onme, which only adds to the what
god has to answer for, even inthis universe.
I mean, we lost caleb in thisuniverse, yeah, yeah yeah, well,
like institutional racism alltogether in this universe.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
like I know you do the whole, you're really
committed to the whole free willthing.
But we can use a couple ofmiracles here and there.
Just change some minds, justlike just stick a finger in,
massage some minds, yeah it's,yeah, it's hard man.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
I mean like, especially like in this show,
sets it up as a parent, right,and like I want my kid to be,
you know, independent and makeher own decisions, but if I see
someone's going to be harmed Iintervene, you know.
Yeah, anyway, so that's alittle theological aside.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I feel like that could be the subtitle of the
show Lightbringers.
A little theological aside.
I feel like that could be thesubtitle of the show
Lightbringers a littletheological aside.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
What you get when you talk with me.
That's how it goes, oh mygoodness.
Well, I think we've overthunkit enough for one day.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Oh yeah, we probably have overthunk it enough, so
should we plug our otherprojects?
Okay, do you want to do it?
Sure, you know if you've beenenjoying little theological
asides from the two of us, weare launching a podcast called
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,where we overthink all kinds of
(46:07):
pop culture, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Speaker 3 (46:12):
right, that's right.
I think that I was thinkingabout it the other day.
You know, like our broaderculture like wants us to think
that, like it just doesn'tmatter, there's this like hand
wave.
If it isn't, like you know,like high culture, if it's not
it's, it's very much that whitemen yeah, it's very much the
same as like it's just a joke,don't take it seriously exactly
(46:35):
which is the very much gaslighting yeah, so um, this is
what shapes how we behave itreally is pop culture, really,
really, it matters, it mattersindeed indeed so we already, by
the time you get this, we'llhave some episodes coming out
(46:56):
talking about Twilight, talkingabout Muppets from Space,
talking about the Princess Bride.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
We've got a few others in the hopper that we're
looking forward to overthinkingtogether.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yep Audio only wherever you find podcasts.
Yes, we're thinking together.
Yep Audio only wherever youfind podcasts.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yes, our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(47:38):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
No-transcript.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi there, hello, I am here with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker.
She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I do, it's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken.
No hyphen, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Trips people up Together.
We are Lightbringers where weilluminate the deeper meaning of
the crime-solving devil TV show.
And yes, we're overthinking it,totally overthinking it.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
That's what we do.
That's what we do.
And today we are overthinking511 and 512.
Is that right?
That's correct 511 and 512.
So resting devil face andDaniel Espinoza naked and afraid
.
Yes, daniel Espinoza Naked andAfraid.
Yes, so this is the first timeI've rewatched Daniel Espinoza
(01:11):
Naked and Afraid since the firsttime I watched it through.
Same for me, not when I returnto, but we'll get there, we'll
get there, we'll get there.
Start at the beginning.
It's a very good place to start.
So resting devil face.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Start at the beginning.
It's a very good place to start.
So Resting Devil Face.
So I want to mention thatResting Devil Face starts with
the song Believer by ImagineDragons, which is the favorite
song of one of my children.
My children tend to have amusical taste that can best be
described as earnest young whiteman on his knees, singing with
(01:51):
his eyes closed.
And when he first startedliking that song I was surprised
because I was like where youknow, like where did you hear
this song?
And like I recognize that itwas on Lucifer somewhere and I
(02:11):
could not remember what episodeit was in.
So I've been looking for it allthis time and finally I was
like there it is.
But I also want to say was very, very good sound cue and like
combination of the the song withthe action, which I'm sure is
why they did it, because youknow they're like all right,
(02:33):
united front, and then it'sfirst things first, and then you
know, and then they stop, stopthe music the cinematography.
The direction in that firstscene is just so delightful,
with the slow-mo of them, likewalking toward each other and
like and the, the, when they,when they do the, the um, as
they're walking down the stairs,they like bump bump fists, but
(02:56):
sideways, which?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
is like so brotherly, so cute, and like, like, like
lucifer, like checking his cuffs, like he always does, and and
that's in slow-mo and then inreal time with them, like
talking, um, you know, in normaltime and then slow-mo again and
then talking.
There's just something reallysatisfying about that setup
(03:22):
especially and and this thesetup, and like a minute deals,
like you can trust me, I'm withyou, and then immediately,
immediately, like it doesn'teven take a full, he's fine like
one minute before.
So much for the united front.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Well, and it's one of the things I really appreciate
about this storyline and thisepisode is it strikes me that
the writers have been throughthe issue of dealing with a
parent aging and needing morehelp, not being as independent,
that sort of thing, because it'svery much all of those complex
(04:04):
emotions, very much the likerecreating your childhood roles
in the family, where Amenadielimmediately folds and is like
but he says he's fine, I'm sureit's okay, and he's the eldest
and the youngest rebellious oneis the one who's like no, we got
to be firm.
I had forgotten how delightfulthis episode was, because I've
(04:30):
rewatched it at least a coupleof times, but it's not one of
the ones that I go back to and Iwas like oh, it should be, this
is fun yeah, it's fun, it's funand there's a lot of fan
service in it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Fun, it's fun, and there's a lot of fan service in
it too, like in the gym, in theboxing gym.
I don't know if you noticed,but I actually paused it.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Like the ads.
They're all things that we'veseen in the show.
Yeah, there's like top meat andAzaria the singer.
Yeah, the singer, the cabin,which was that reality show.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
That's what it was.
Yeah, yeah, there was one thatI didn't recognize.
The top left corner is hollabay.
Oh yeah, I know that is so.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
That was um, the rapper who was killed and then
taken over by a demon in, uh,the end of season four yeah yeah
yeah, yeah yeah yeah, just gotit yeah so that that was a fun
easter egg like fun fan servicethere with that.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Yeah, so, uh, so that was pretty cool.
Some of the things that, ifwe're gonna overthink it, like I
get where they were going andthey had to, you know, they had
to really like show us, not justtell us that, like god set gods
, it's really hard to use male.
No, uh, god set god in this.
(05:47):
Okay, we can in this universe.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
God is male.
Yeah, and, and we can say hisbird is male yes, and so when we
say god, we're talking aboutthe character, we're not talking
about the actual hashemwhatever that is.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So, yeah, when that's his first, god sets his powers
aside so that he can experiencewhat it's like to be like
Lucifer and like I get wherethey're going.
And then they had to, like theymade it funny, you know, like
that he, when they close theireyes, everything disappears,
like, but I don't know god wouldknow that I think so.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I mean, god is all-knowing, yeah and so god
would know what it would be liketo experience humanity.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
You'd think I mean, I don't, yeah, there's, there was
something about that that justdidn't quite sit.
Yeah, right with me, and likeit was useful for storytelling
effect insofar as like maze wasgoing to try and kill him and
she couldn't if he hadn't sortof set his powers aside and you
(06:56):
know, and, and the comediceffect of like him having to go
to the bathroom for the firsttime that one I believed.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Like that one, I'll give that one.
Like not realizing it goes darkwhen you close your eyes.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
No, but the like, almighty being just being like,
yeah, I don't need to worryabout that right, and also he
knew what it was.
It's not like it was like whatis this feeling?
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I appreciated that, you know, and also they needed to
continue the.
You know he's losing, he'slosing it, he's slipping by,
(07:28):
literally losing the powers.
Oh, that's an interestingmetaphor made real Losing it,
losing it.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Anyway, no-transcript .
(08:06):
There's no lack of storiesabout, you know, people dealing
with Alzheimer's and dementiaand stuff like that, but this is
the first one that I've seenthat I really felt like I was
just, like I could feel this ina way that was different and in
part because, you know, I canthink of like one or two
examples, two examples of of um,and maybe it's cause I saw it
(08:28):
when I was a teenager.
There's a movie calledsomething like Raising Hope or
something like that, with withum, what's her name?
Uh, sandra Bullock in it andher father or grandfather has
Alzheimer's, but you don't see,you don't meet him until after
he's just no longer there.
So something about this, aboutseeing like the he's still the
(08:51):
parent you know, and yet he'snot, and it's terrifying, like
that is really visceral.
Yeah, yeah, hope floats.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
That's what it's called.
It's called hope floats.
Yeah, raising hope was a tv.
That was a tv show.
Yeah it was very different yeah,there's also something in this
episode interesting aboutthinking about sort of who we
are inside, right like the, theconversation that when god says
to lucifer you're the, why didyou choose that face?
(09:26):
That's how you see yourself.
That I think we haven't.
We talked about the fact thatthey self-actualize, but I don't
know that we've really had thatspelled out for us before.
And having it in that way itasked in that way from God was
really to me a very poignantmoment.
(09:49):
They didn't linger over it,which was fine, but was really
really interesting to me in thatmoment, in sort of in that
moment.
And then the other piece ofsort of I don't, I want, I
started to say mental health uh,kind of poignancy, but it's
(10:10):
more than that.
It's, it is that.
But it's also just sort of like,like mindset moment is in the,
at the very end for maze, whenuh, she says yeah, but a demon
can't grow a soul, god says,can't she right?
And that's sort of like.
I mean, in some ways the wizardof oz has been like like we've
(10:34):
been getting this message forforever.
Like you already haveeverything you need.
Like this is a hollywood trope,but I think we keep coming back
to it in hollywood because weneed it.
Yeah, yeah, you know, likethere's this constant,
especially in this late stage,capitalism, the culture scape in
which we find ourselves,there's this constant sense
(10:54):
hellscape, I think.
You mean, I was gonna call itthat, but it's a shoe fence, but
um, there is this, thisconstant sense that, like, I'll
be happy when, I'll be worthywhen, and it's always about like
, what you don't have now.
Yeah, yeah.
Like when I get this thing,when I get the new that car,
(11:18):
when I get the promotion, when Ilose 10 pounds when I went in,
whatever the thing is, it's outof reach this is always on the
other side of it.
Yeah, yeah.
And it never is, becausethere's always another thing.
And so to have this like underthis, this message underlined
like no, you already have it,you already have what you need,
(11:38):
to be happy to be worthy in a ina very I mean it's not a
metaphorical kind of worthinessshe thinks she doesn't have a
soul.
So that, paired with that's howyou see yourself in that face.
Why did you choose that is areally sort of interesting
(11:59):
pairing that they don't lingerover right.
They don't, they don't spell itout for us, they don't, I don't
.
Nobody actually says like oh, Iwas worthy the whole time.
You know, what I was lookingfor was here all the time.
Like we never actually hearthose words and in fact the
implication is that she somehowhas matured and grown as a whole
(12:20):
along the way.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
but what's interesting is that it dovetails
very nicely with the, theconversation in that episode
about parenting, becausethroughout this episode and they
do it like sometimes the thecase works, sometimes it doesn't
they did a really nice job ofdovetailing the cases, case and
(12:42):
the theme in this one becausewith chloe and trixie, with the
almighty, the the boxer, um, the, the the doctor, you know,
playing god the trainer, playinggod he actually says those
words yeah the, the general, whocan't live up to her mother's
expectations.
And then the colonel oh, that'sright, her mother's the general.
(13:04):
And then god realizing, when hesees lucifer's face, how he has
screwed up as a parent.
Because to me, what that?
Like the conversation he haswith trixie, which I really
appreciated he talks about howhe was aiming for this one thing
he wanted his kids toself-actualize.
(13:26):
He wanted to give them freewill so that they could become
what they were meant clear tohim.
Oh, I thought I was doing theright thing and I wasn't.
(13:47):
And that's, I feel like thatinforms what god says to maze,
because instead of him givingher mysterious ways again,
because that's how he usuallyspeaks he actually says can't
she?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
in a way that, like, gives her the message more
directly yeah, although in hismysterious ways, right, he
doesn't just say like youalready have, yeah and that's.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
That's one of those things where I find that also
like realistic, in that, even ifsomeone decides like I need to
be different, I need to changehow I deal with people, they'll
still be themselves right, rightlike he's.
He like I need to be different,I need to change how I deal
with people, they'll still bethemselves right, right like
he's.
He's never going to be able tobe like.
I will spell it out for you, andhere's a flow chart you know
like that's never going to behow he does things, but that's.
(14:36):
I really um appreciated that.
And then the the conversationthat chloe and trixie have at
the end of the episode.
In some ways I felt like we'vetalked before about how, like
parenting on tv is not like realparenting.
You know so like your, yourkids, having a meltdown and
(14:58):
you're like, why are you upset?
Well, it's because of this, youknow.
And a kid who is acting out tothe point of stealing her
mother's handcuffs andhandcuffing a bully to the
cafeteria table, which does feellike it's within character.
(15:19):
I mean, we met Trixie after shejust kicked a mean girl in her
touch-touch square Right, but atthe same time, that's
premeditated.
Trixie after she just kicked amean girl in her
no-no-touch-touch square Right,but at the same time, that's
premeditated, it's a pretty bigdeal what she's done.
But that conversation they havewhere Trixie is able to say
(15:40):
okay, so we all make mistakes,we all are in denial, we all you
know not dealing with thingsand I know you're unhappy and I
know it's because of lucifer andI'm I really don't like that
and then her mom being like Idon't always know what I'm doing
and being able to have thatconversation makes great tv, but
(16:08):
as a mother, as the mother ofan 11 year old yeah, only child
girl, yeah, yeah, well it it's.
You know it's like the, thesitcom trope, you know it all
wraps up in 22 minutes.
It's also so like the idea thatan 11 year old could be that in
touch with her feelings, evenafter talking to linda, who is
(16:29):
like the world's best therapistand boy.
Is that not appropriate for me?
It's so enmeshed in heralliance lives.
Anyway, even with that like the, the, how in touch Trixie is
with her feelings, how muchshe's willing to forgive Chloe
for not seeing things.
(16:50):
Uh, how much you're right, it's, it's.
It doesn't really fit.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Also, just like maybe maybe my kid would notice if I
was sad for a while.
I mean I guess she would, but Ijust that that was the one she
would have the emotionalmaturity to really see the
(17:16):
constellations.
In that same way, I mean shewould either be worried that it
was something she had done orshe'd just be mad at me.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Right, that was the thing that I found myself like
going like about that, and mythought was that it was not
appropriate for a parent to betalking to their child about
their love life.
Yeah, and so that trixie wouldnotice that something in her
(17:41):
mother's love life is making herunhappy is the sort of thing
that, like, either shows thatthis kid is a little parentified
or that I mean well, I meanit's, it's tv writers but yeah
yeah, I think, like when Iwatched it the first time and
even this time, when linda saysthat like it's actually often,
like you know, mis misplacedanger or whatever that actual
(18:04):
term she uses, because you'reangry, angry at somebody else.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
She wouldn't have been angry at Lucifer, the anger
would have been at Chloe.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, well cause that's safe, because it's safe
to be angry at her mother,because her mother will always
love her.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
And even the conversation then that Chloe has
with her.
Like I tried to protect you inmy head.
I'm like like that time whenmalcolm almost killed you both
yeah, like yeah, I mean not thatchloe did anything wrong, in
that I'm not like I'm not sayingthat chloe failed it to protect
.
I'm just saying, like, trixie'sbeen through some real shit.
(18:41):
She's been through some stuffseriously traumatizing some
things.
Yeah, um, you know, and thenthere was the car accident, when
, um, when uriel first came totown and like I just, I don't
know, I I just feel like this isnot when.
(19:01):
Trixie would be mad at lucifer,and she wouldn't be mad at
Lucifer at all, it would beChloe.
Chloe would be the person shewould want to kick in the shins.
Yeah, it was much better TV tohave Trixie show up at the
penthouse His hair is majesticand you know it, and you know it
and have her kick him in theshins.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Like that was great TV, but it didn't feel realistic
well, and that that was onething about the conversation
between trixie and chloe is thatit felt like the kind of
conversation they would have 10years from now.
Yeah, yep, and I appreciated itas like kind of the, the sort
(19:43):
of like childhood post-mortem,because it's too soon to have
that kind of conversation,because Trixie's still very much
a kid he's 11 yeah yeah, so,but the conversation between God
and Trixie I thought wasfantastic yeah and even even the
(20:04):
?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
um sort of confusion on Trixie's face when he says
I've never been a kid and she'slike okay then, but that was
like it was exactly what sheneeded because he was validating
her experience.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Like you know, she's like I've never been a stop
being childish which, yeah, it'snot my favorite thing about
(20:43):
myself as a parent but, uh,there are times where, like, one
of my kids will start with likeever since x happened, and I'll
be like, oh, for goodness sakes, I'll be like, stop, he's only
got a decade's worth ofexperience total.
This is a big deal, yeah, butyou know, yeah, because we
(21:04):
forget, we forget how tough itis, or we never were kids.
Yeah, I I do want to say I feellike god is the only person who
has had the appropriatereaction to getting a hug from
Ella.
Like I love that interaction,but I also, like there was a
(21:28):
little part of me that got alittle teary-eyed when he was
just like, thank you so much foryour support.
It has definitely beenappreciated.
And like there was somethinglike you know how, inside the
actor's studio, they would endwith like the same, like I think
seven or 10 questions, and thelast one was you arrive at the
pearly gates, what do you wantGod to say to you?
(21:50):
And like, like that would bepretty good.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, shall we move on to theour least, our, our least
favorite?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
yes, at least yeah well, I think of the of the
series series maybe it just manso dan espinoza, naked and
afraid.
Dan Espinosa, naked and Afraid,is one that really exposes my
(22:26):
Achilles heel as a professionalEnglish major storyteller, lover
of lore, and I think some ofthis has to do with the fact,
with my ADHD, I take people attheir word, I take things at
(22:46):
their word, so I do not getsubtext on first reading or
viewing and I often it takesseveral iterations before I'm
like oh yeah, there's thesubtext.
So I believed everything wasactually happening while I was
watching it.
What's interesting is what andthis may have something to do
(23:08):
with the fact that he doesn'twatch the show, but I was
watching it this afternoon myhusband came in and and was kind
of like watching over myshoulder and even though at the
at the end, when all of a suddenthe music starts playing, my
husband goes like what ishappening right now?
He did say he's like, yeah, Iknew something was up, because
(23:31):
it was so campy, it was so muchcampier than usual.
I was like I just didn't thefirst time I watched it.
It just did not occur to me.
Time I watched it.
I just it just did not occur tome, and so I know that is a big
part of the reason why I didn'tlike it because I was suffering
with Dan, me too thinking itwas real even if it's, even
(23:52):
knowing it wasn't real.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Even in this rewatch, which is only my second time
through, I watched it last nightknowing, I mean, I've seen
before.
I know that this is allorchestrated by Lucifer and that
Benito is not actually dead andum, you know all the things.
I still was suffering with Danbecause Dan thought it was real
(24:14):
and I don't.
Maybe I have greater empathyfor fictional characters than
the average viewer because Iknow this is one of, like, the
fan favorites.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I know people adore this episode and they think that
like because you fucking shotme, daniel is like the funniest
line ever and I'm like I don't,it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Chloe tried.
Chloe tried to poison him.
Like it it wouldn't have hurthim, but she thought that it
would you know the I found iteasier to watch this time.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
So this is only my second time viewing this episode
.
Same reason found it easier towatch this time in the same.
For the same reason that, um, Ican handle any terrible thing
that happens to people, as longas it's prologue, as long as
it's like background orbackstory.
Um, if it's happening in frontof me like it's happening in
(25:14):
real time, I'm not okay, but aslong as it's backstory, I'm like
well, I know they made itthrough, so it's.
And there were a number oflittle hints and like one of the
things that Lucifer said is youknow, this wouldn't have worked
on Chloe, because she's adetective, and Dan's like so am
I.
And I was I was realizing thereare a number of things that
(25:34):
really should have like kind ofindicated that this, this isn't
what you think.
It is Like what can you cause?
I'm not sure, oh, sure, so okay.
The one that I remember thinkingat the time, the first time I
saw it was Benito's head in thebox, and I was just like wow,
they're going back to that same.
Well, because Dan has alreadyreceived a head in a box, so,
(25:58):
like that, that was like okay,that's right, received a head in
a box, so, like that, that waslike, okay, that's.
That's just odd to me that theydid that, and I thought
something similar about poisonand antidote, because that's
another, yeah, another.
The one that I did not catchbut was very obvious in
retrospect was when he shows upat the penthouse, what Lucifer
(26:21):
is playing is that dun dun dun,dun, dun dun.
That is like very clearly likenot doing anything, you know,
like you know, because if he'sactually playing for himself, he
plays like, yeah, he doesn'tplay classical Classics, never,
yeah, classical.
So things like that.
(26:43):
There was a little bit of overthe topness about some stuff,
but I still was like horrifiedwhen the bullets started flying
the first time around, this timearound, because I knew it
wasn't real that, but that theanguish he feels at that moment,
like even everything up to that, I feel like, is more
forgivable than the anguish hefeels at seeing people who, like
(27:05):
he cares about in terms of mazeand then are, you know, friends
of his in a funk at thebeginning and he's talking about
(27:27):
, like he says, to louise beforethe whole thing starts.
He's like you know, nothingmatters, and so like nothing
matters.
And by going through thisordeal he realized that things
do matter and he reconnects withhis own sense of morality and
(27:48):
his own sense of why he doeswhat he does, who he truly
believes he is and what he'swilling to do.
And, as Lucifer points out, Iknew whenever you had to make a
decision, you'd try to do theright thing, and so, like
reconnecting him with that isvery much something that he
(28:12):
needed.
Like he says, I, I needed thisyeah and in.
In a way, this was just like themassive version of Lucifer,
like teasing him, which at thebeginning, like Chloe says, like
I know it hurts you that youcan't tease him right now,
because that's how you two showthat you're friends and show
(28:33):
your affection.
It's just, it's rough.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
It just feels gross to me, like the whole episode
just feels gross, I mean, arethere, are fun and funny moments
, yeah, um, like in particularwhen the improv crew shows up
and each of them is dressedtough but like different tough
right like, there's like thepunk rock guy and there's like
the um the the uh like 30sgangster the main guy.
(29:03):
The main guy, the only guy whoactually speaks, is like a 30s
gangster, yeah, but they're alllike, they're all different,
they're all different kinds ofthey do not look like, do not
match.
Yeah, they're all tough, butit's like different
interpretations of tough, likethat is really funny and like
makes a certain amount of sense,that if you just tell a group
of improv people to look tough,that was just kind of fun and
(29:27):
there were.
There are some funny moments.
I mean even the bike shop thatturns out to be a cycle, like a
blinged out bicycle shop, likewell, and then the uh, the like,
the the group therapy sessionthey end up having, which is
pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, there's definitely some funny moments in
there.
I've said it before, but theway my spouse put it was that it
was very campy.
Can kind of help blunt the paina little bit of watching this
character, who I do truly careabout.
(30:06):
Like I very much like Dan as acharacter, and I feel bad.
They make Kevin Alejandro looklike such a goober because he is
such a phenomenally attractiveman and he looks so gooberish.
I think he does this, so hischin looks weird, I don't know.
Yeah, and like to be.
I think kevin alejandro had funwith this episode, which that
(30:28):
also kind of makes it a littleeasier for me, but it reminds me
of.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
There's a um, I watched all of how I met your
mother and I I'm not proud ofthat I mean, if it makes you
feel any better, I watchedreally like most of it, like all
but the last season, so yeah,so it may have been the last
season, maybe in the eighth, Idon't even remember.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Like by the time we got to the last season, where
was I pissed off anyway forbarney's bachelor Ted, since
Barney so often wants things tobe epic or legend wait for it,
derry so for his bachelor party,ted ends up creating the worst
night that Barney's ever had,because that is the only way to
(31:19):
top all the legendary stuff he'salready done.
So he's very stressed out nowbecause Barney's kind of a piece
of crap.
That one didn't bother me,although there were still like I
get, I feel, secondhandembarrassment very strongly Me
too.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
We have that same thing.
I don't remember that episodeif I saw it, but the difference
too is that like probably nobodydied.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Um, they, they.
I don't think anybody died.
I don't remember there was thethey.
They ended up getting ralphmacchio and the guy who played
the bad guy in um, the karatekid yeah, the blonde guy who's
like, I guess, the protagonistin that new in cobra kai, yeah,
(32:02):
anyway, so anyway uh, they gotthat like and there was
something about that, andsomebody got beat up and I I
don't remember the detailsbecause it's been such a such a
time since I've seen it, but butyeah, there's, it's the, the
fear of death to me like, butthey were being responsive,
feeling responsible for thedeaths of so many other people,
so many people.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Benito is not his fault, but everybody else,
everybody else, and the bodycount is really high, oh my
goodness, I mean really high,like all the, all the russian
guys, all the uh, all of luis'sgang luis's gang and the low
sexes low sexes and the and hisimprov and the improv so like
(32:45):
honestly and maze so like I mean, like I still carry like major
guilt from when I had to my dogput down Like I it's not funny,
it's not a prank, it's justcruel.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
And I don't like thinking of Lucifer as cruel,
because I feel the same way.
That's part of the point ofthis show for me that I glom
onto is that he's not in factcruel, and that's part of why
being the king of hell was suchpunishment so painful for him.
Yes, because he's not in factcruel, and so seeing him as
(33:29):
cruel is really hard for me, butI can't.
I have a hard time seeing itany other way.
Yeah, and even the, because youfucking shot me, daniel, like,
but you're the devil and yeah,and nothing happened.
And even if you had- even ifchloe had been there and you had
been vulnerable as soon as shegot far enough away, mm-hmm, you
(33:53):
well, she was there, but he allof a sudden was I know.
But even if he, even if he hadstill been vulnerable, if she
just immediately, instead ofrunning to him, if she had
immediately run as far away aspossible, presumably he would
have recovered.
Plus, he was wearing a littlestring which I know we haven't,
we just forgot about, but yeahyeah.
(34:18):
And we know that Daniel ismortal and was under the
influence of michael, so likegive a guy a fucking pass yeah,
yeah or I mean even be mad athim, but like 5.4 million
dollars and making him thinkthat he has caused the death of
two dozen people.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I will say the $5.4 million to me feels like an
indication to Dan how much Danmeans to Lucifer In that, like I
know, I know.
But when Grasp in to make thisnot cruel, no, it's well.
(35:01):
Here's the thing pranks arecruel like practical jokes are
cruel.
There's a book that I love, thatI I listen to to fall asleep to
, where there's a practicaljoker who's a minor character
and then the main character islike, oh, I knew it couldn't
have been my friend, becausethere's not a dram of meanness
in him and you have to have youhave to be mean to commit
(35:22):
practical jokes and like not adram of meanness.
I love that, that description.
So I just I cannot wrap my headaround the cruelty of a
practical joke.
I can wrap my head around theidea of someone valuing a
(35:46):
friendship in a way that theycan't talk to each other about
because they can't, and the onlyway they can show it is by
throwing themselves into I meanmeticulous planning at a
ridiculous amount of money,because the the way that they
they connect with each other isthrough being jerks to each
(36:09):
other.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, so it's not going to be like yeah, yeah,
which?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
yeah, I, I, I loved his, his decorations in his, in
his apartment.
Yeah, yeah, I also love thefact his apartment His home.
Yeah, yeah, I also love thefact you only have kombucha.
What if you have guests?
I have some LaCroix orsomething.
I have some LaCroix.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, I will never like this episode.
I will never see what otherpeople see in it.
I wonder if someone who is moreable to see subtext, more able
to recognize being winked atearlier, earlier, would have
liked it better, even even withthe knowing that that dan didn't
(36:53):
know.
But I can see in the same waythat people really like when
they can guess who who done itin a murder mystery.
If you can see, like before dandoes that, it's uh like.
Oh, this is a setup.
There's something enjoyableabout that.
It's the.
It's the um traumatic ironythat you love.
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
So maybe like when lucifer says I never lie and I
know this is going to goperfectly, yeah, he means for
him, yeah yeah, well, and heeven, he even says directly he's
like it's all about appearances, yeah, and you know, there
there was like.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
The other one that I noticed was when Dan says how do
I look?
And he's like pretty goodactually.
That was the response to eachother back in season one when
Lucifer got shot by Malcolm.
Come to think of it, I think nowell, malcolm was supposed to
come shoot him and Dan camerunning to stop him and Lucifer
had been shot by someone elsebut was fine, and so he's like
(37:54):
how do I look?
Pretty good actually is whatDan said to him.
So there were like Easter eggsin there.
So that's another thing thatI'm imagining.
The fandom likes is like oh, Irecognize that from that and I
recognize that from that.
Yeah, but you know, it's justso hard to decouple the meekness
.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, that's agreed.
That's how I feel about it,yeah, yeah.
Well, we've been talking for aminute, we've been overthinking
for a minute, so maybe can wetransition to fluff.
Are you ready?
Absolutely, I would love totalk fluff.
Actually, I don't know if thisis fluff or not.
(38:32):
I love in this episode indaniela spinoza, naked and
afraid, the scene with ella whenshe's working on her novel
about I mean, I wish they hadbrought that back again about
the forensic scientist who talksto ghosts, who's cheerful but
also has, you know, the darknessinside her.
I thought that was reallyadorable to hear her talking
about herself in that way and itreally.
I say adorable I mean endearingand also like poignant I, I love
(38:57):
that moment of.
Ella sort of like gettingexcited about yeah novel, which
was a self-insert, you know, orsemi-autobiobiographical, in
such a pleasant way.
Anyway, I love that moment yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, that was pretty great.
I also like I reallyappreciated that she had
actually thought through all ofthat the pig's blood and the
ground beef For the brain matteryes, yeah, and Lucifer knew
that that would happen in someway yeah anyway, yeah yeah, I,
(39:41):
you know that's that.
That also shows the amount ofrespect that lucifer has for for
dan, because he never at anypoint worried that Dan would
actually try to hurt her, hurtthe Svetlana.
I mean like there was noconcern whatsoever that that was
what was going to happen.
No, I mean that that's.
That's a huge sign of respect.
Shouldn't have put him in thatposition.
(40:07):
But anyway, very, very littlefluff piece.
But when god gets the rattleback from charlie and he's like
all right, I'm gonna take mypowers back, I'm sitting there
thinking like it's not gonna belights.
He's god, it's just just, it'sjust back.
(40:28):
No, there doesn't need to be alike, a special effect lights
and a fan, yeah oh my goodness,yeah, that was that bothered, me
oh, linda's response.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
It was pretty great what the hell just happened.
Actually, I don't think I thinkshe's, yeah, but still, yeah,
the hell just happened.
I don't think I think, butstill, the hell was implied.
Yeah, that was pretty great.
You know, it's interesting tooin terms of fluff, when God is
in the airplane with the badguys, with the colonel and her
(41:08):
crew, and he's like telling babystories about Lucifer and her
crew and he's like telling likebaby stories about lucifer and
the rebellion and like they'relike laughing and charmed, like
what are they imagining?
Yeah, yeah, like are theyimagining a seven-year-old or
(41:28):
like yeah, because what weoverheard was just confusing Odd
.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Very odd.
Oh, it's kind of fluff, it'skind of just a small detail.
But when they're looking forthey, they talk to the the
surgeon and she's like, oh yeah,it was the drug I think, ysd
and uh is like you know, it'svery exclusive, like, oh yes,
very exclusive, okay, what doesit look like?
And she's like small pink andand he's like, okay, so what
(42:04):
kind of pink?
And boucanvia, yeah, um, andI'm just like we should have
probably known when she was ableto say, like it's ballet,
slipper pink.
After having she only saw itonce once, whereas like small
and pink should have probablybeen all she could handle if she
(42:26):
never actually seen it right,right, so maybe not even
recognize it, yeah, when hefound it.
Yeah, like I think so yeah,yeah, that should have been in
cater yeah for sure.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
Well, that was, that was there for us, right?
Yeah.
So here's another piece offluff a couple of episodes ago,
when lucifer offers god a donutin the precinct and God says I
prefer the ones with sprinkles.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Or with cereal on it.
Is that what it was?
It was yes.
It had like fruit loops on it.
Got it.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Well, they brought that back.
The kind of donut he prefers iswhat he offered to Trixie,
which I thought was Iappreciated that Lovely, that's
nice.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, it's nice little, nice little continuity,
oh Dan being blown up.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Oh yeah, I forgot that was in this episode and he
remembers it.
Yes, yeah, yeah, and Lucifer'slike did you do that on purpose?
Of course, I meant to put himback together.
It's a great line, it's a greatline, dennis Haysbert.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Like if you'd asked me when I'd seen the first three
or four seasons, like if itmade any sense to cast an actor
as God in this show, I wouldhave been like, absolutely not.
Actor as god in this show, Iwould have been like, absolutely
not.
I still like to this day.
I'm just like it's a little oddjust because of how much god
would have to answer for evenjust within this universe.
(44:00):
But man, they did a nice joband part of it was dennis
haisberg I also want to mentionI feel like I saw db woodside
somewhere talking about how muchit meant to him to have God
played by a man who looks likehim and I was thinking of that
when they were asking thebartender where he was.
(44:22):
And he's like tall,broad-shouldered, piercing eyes.
That's a little like me.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, no, that was not at all lost on me.
That's a little like me, yeah,yeah.
No, that was not at all lost onme, which only adds to the what
god has to answer for, even inthis universe.
I mean, we lost caleb in thisuniverse, yeah, yeah yeah, well,
like institutional racism alltogether in this universe.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
like I know you do the whole, you're really
committed to the whole free willthing.
But we can use a couple ofmiracles here and there.
Just change some minds, justlike just stick a finger in,
massage some minds, yeah it's,yeah, it's hard man.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
I mean like, especially like in this show,
sets it up as a parent, right,and like I want my kid to be,
you know, independent and makeher own decisions, but if I see
someone's going to be harmed Iintervene, you know.
Yeah, anyway, so that's alittle theological aside.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
I feel like that could be the subtitle of the
show Lightbringers.
A little theological aside.
I feel like that could be thesubtitle of the show
Lightbringers a littletheological aside.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
What you get when you talk with me.
That's how it goes, oh mygoodness.
Well, I think we've overthunkit enough for one day.
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (45:44):
Oh yeah, we probably have overthunk it enough, so
should we plug our otherprojects?
Okay, do you want to do it?
Sure, you know if you've beenenjoying little theological
asides from the two of us, weare launching a podcast called
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,where we overthink all kinds of
(46:07):
pop culture, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Speaker 3 (46:12):
right, that's right.
I think that I was thinkingabout it the other day.
You know, like our broaderculture like wants us to think
that, like it just doesn'tmatter, there's this like hand
wave.
If it isn't, like you know,like high culture, if it's not
it's, it's very much that whitemen yeah, it's very much the
same as like it's just a joke,don't take it seriously exactly
(46:35):
which is the very much gaslighting yeah, so um, this is
what shapes how we behave itreally is pop culture, really,
really, it matters, it mattersindeed indeed so we already, by
the time you get this, we'llhave some episodes coming out
(46:56):
talking about Twilight, talkingabout Muppets from Space,
talking about the Princess Bride.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
We've got a few others in the hopper that we're
looking forward to overthinkingtogether.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yep Audio only wherever you find podcasts.
Yes, we're thinking together.
Yep Audio only wherever youfind podcasts.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yes, our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeetcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(47:38):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
No-transcript.
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