May 2, 2024 • 51 mins
“A Little Harmless Stalking” & “Nothing Lasts Forever” are ripe for overthinking, and the Guy girls do.
These two stories invite meditations on the reconciliation of adult children and their parents, a scene that has become common in contemporary pop fiction, and which Tracie & Emily dub psychological or family dynamic fiction: art that creates an aspiration that isn’t true, yet, but could be because of the art.
As is often the case in Lucifer, upon deeper reflection, the overlapping lines of connection between the characters is a bit unsettling as we realize that Eve and Maze together means the latter is dating her ex-husband’s ex-wife’s daughter.
Emily analyzes Ella’s “darkness” and names it intrusive thoughts, which she wishes the show itself had done.
Tracie is disappointed in the off-brand nature of the joke of Handjobiel’s name, and both sisters linger over what it even means for God to retire from a universe that was made by God but also is God.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
She does not use a hyphen, it's true, and I'm here
with my sister, tracyGuy-Deurken.
She does not use a hyphen.
It's true, and I'm here with mysister, tracy Guy-Decker she
does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yep, and together this show is Lightbringers,
where we illuminate the deepermeaning of the crime-solving
devil TV show and, yeah, we'reoverthinking it so much.
And today get to overthink, uh,episodes five 13 and five 14, a
little harmless stalking andnothing lasts forever.
(00:52):
And um, so I I just have tolike preface this so that our
listeners know like I screwed upwhen I was like watching and so
I watched five 13 and five 15.
And then you and I got togetherto record and I was like, did I
miss something?
What happened to this and whathappened to that?
And so I went back and watched.
So I've, you know I'm, I am onthe right page, but my
(01:18):
experience of five 14, nothinglasts forever is like colored by
having recently rewatched thenext episode, which is much,
much darker.
So I'm not looking forward to515 yeah, our next episode uh,
for these last, the last two inseason five, is gonna be a
little grim okay, but we'll getthere when we get there.
(01:41):
So I'm just, I just am likeframing sort of part of my
approach today to these twoepisodes, but let's actually dig
into them.
So let's start with a littleharmless stalking, where we get
some interesting Linda.
We get some interesting Linda.
Facetime, which is kind of cool, where she has stalking her
(02:01):
biological daughter who doesn'tknow she exists, and gets kind
of mixed up in some trouble andthen hijinks ensue.
So that's sort of the backstoryand there's a there's like the
opportunity for linda to not bethe compassionate receptacle,
(02:21):
the therapist yeah, you knowthere's.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I mean she, she's, she's los angeles's only
therapist.
But yeah, she even like at thevery beginning of the show she's
talking to maize on the on hercell phone in the car and she's
therapizing.
I, she's.
Yeah, it's a consultation,she's counseling, which I've
(02:48):
never been friends with atherapist before Exactly Not.
I mean, I have a friend who's aart therapist, which is a
little bit different, and youknow, we have a cousin who who
is a therapist, but I've neverbeen friends.
She's a sex therapist.
So yeah it doesn't come up.
She's awesome.
So I don't know if that is acommon role that a therapist
(03:13):
would fall into, because I feellike it would be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
A little busman's holiday too.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, but at the same time, how would you not?
You know someone's coming toyou saying these things.
It would be hard not to like gointo, like well, how's that
make you feel?
And you know, I'm really proudof you, and those sorts of
things and are an actualtherapist, but a therapist who
does the kind of talk therapythat Linda does how that works
(03:51):
out for them.
Because I wonder if it's likemy friend who's a comedian, who
doesn't want to be the personwho's like, hey, be funny,
you're the funny guy at parties.
You know, because that's my job.
I'm a person.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you wanted to talk about the.
In this episode there's a scenewhere Eve and Maze take on the
big scary guy.
Big scary guy, yeah, oh, yes,and you wanted to talk about
(04:24):
that sort of like the slightwoman fighting the big guy and
sort of that trope and how weview it.
So you had a demon and, withinthe canon of the story, she
can't be harmed by a human, theway that a human woman of her
size would appear to be harmed.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
We've seen her get hurt and stuff like that.
It's not that she can't be,it's just that there's the
superhuman aspect to Maze.
Eve though there is something alittle bit magical about her,
cause she was able to slip rightback into her old bones is
simply a human.
So she she bleeds like a human,she can die like a human.
She is, you know, she can breaklike a human, and we even see
(05:17):
that when she and maze fightafterwards she's like and cause
she's putting the peas on her,uh, on her head, and stuff like
that.
Something that has bothered mefor a long time is there's this
assumption that women can'tfight.
And it's not that women can'tfight, it's that women can't
(05:38):
fight like men fight, so, andEve does a really good job of
illustrating that.
So Maze is engaging the bigscary guy and Eve is looking to
go to help.
But she's in Bar-La-Vie, is thesame height as me, she's five
foot four, so she's not a supertall person and she is a very
slight woman, while I have nodoubt that she has pretty,
(06:01):
pretty good muscle tone and allof that.
This you know, I don't know,six foot, 200 pound guy, you
know, like if she's trying tolike box with him, that's not
going to work.
So she does something veryintelligent and she climbs up
the shelving, the warehouseshelving, and jumps on him.
Because, yeah, that is the wayto do it.
(06:24):
And I was reminded of there is amovie called Atomic Blonde with
Shirley Theron.
Came out like four or fiveyears ago, maybe longer, and
Shirley Theron is a spy.
She's fighting people in 1980sera Berlin, and she's sometimes
taking on like two or three menat once and it is like 200
(06:46):
pounds, six foot tall, likehardened boxers, and what she
does is she uses her environmentto help her fight because,
again, like if you're just likeI punch, you punch, it's she's,
she's not gonna win.
So there's there's one likeshe's in a stairwell and she
(07:18):
gets to a place where one of hersides is protected and she gets
a lamp and is's not how you'resupposed to fight, or that's.
You know, there's somethingwrong with using your
environment rather than justyourself, whereas there is this
level of cunning andintelligence and strategy
strategizing necessary to do allof that.
(07:41):
And I just, I, like, I love thatthis show gave us an
opportunity to see that.
You know, we see, I meanChloe's a badass.
We have seen her never quite inlike a fight but, you know,
like in in difficult situationsand can handle herself.
Maze obviously is amazing.
But again, she's not supposedto be human.
(08:03):
So getting to see Eve do thisin a way that is like true to
how a woman who looks like herwould be a bounty hunter, I
thought was phenomenal and Iwish we would see more of it and
normalize the fact that the waythat a woman who is built like
in Barlavi would fight is goingto be different from how a man
(08:25):
would fight, or even a woman whois taller and and broader would
fight, and that it is perfectlyreasonable and acceptable for
that to be a fighting style.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And yeah, you know it's interesting that she gets.
She gets like in the story, shegets punished for it, she takes
a bullet for it.
So, yes, interesting, which I Ididn't put for it.
So that's an interesting whichI I didn't put put it together
in that way until I'm listeningto you talk about it, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
But even, even it's hard to say, you know, this is
one of those things wherebecause something happens so
rarely, so seeing a woman fightwhen we get like anything that
happens in the story isrepresentative, whereas if this
were, you know, just a tuesday,because like we see it in every
(09:12):
episode of lucifer, it would belike oh no, this is just, you
know, the plot needed it,because then maze yeah, yes, yes
, yes.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
and and like in the next episode that we're pairing
together, like there's the scenein the whatever the Japanese
tea house is where Lucifer'sfighting the guy in the red with
the, the, the bamboo swords,and then the guy throws the
bamboo sword away and pulls anactual samurai sword and Lucifer
(09:42):
says, well, this is not a fairfight, let's make it fair.
And he throws his bamboo swordaway, away and like gestures
with his bare hands, yeah, whichis sort of like the hyper
masculine opposite of whatyou're talking about.
Like not only is he going tofight the right way, like he
even needs fewer, fewer weaponsthan this other guy, and so like
(10:07):
, based on your analysis, basedon your analysis, and with these
two together, and that fightingscene that we see in the very
next episode, like I sort ofthink eve got punished for it
yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I'm also thinking because I just recently watched
Princess Bride again for theunbelievably unnumbered times
time, and the scene when Fezzikand the man in black are
fighting it's like it's moresportsmanlike.
According to Fezzik, you knowno tricks, no weapons, skill
against skill alone.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know, you mean you put down your rock and I put
down my sword and we try tokill each other like civilized
people yeah, well, actuallywhat's really interesting about
that is that physics says skillagainst skill, but that's not
what he means, right, he meanslike hand to hand, like physical
strength against physicalstrength, because part of like
(11:05):
the man in black wins because ofstrategery yeah, yeah, well,
and that that's like part of theskill that eve has in this
episode and part of the skillthat charlie's throne
character's character has inthis episode, is the situational
awareness, yeah, which someonewho is, you know, six foot tall
and 200 pounds, like it's.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
It's the old joke where does a 600 pound gorilla
sleep?
Wherever he wants to doesn'tneed situational awareness, um,
and the the importance ofsituational awareness.
You know this.
This comes back to my, one ofmy favorite statistics in my, my
, my day job, the, the the thingI do for real because I write
(11:47):
about finance.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
This is real.
This is real, but nobody's, butnobody's paying us for it.
Nobody's paying me for this yet.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yet is the fact that women are statistically better
investors than men.
Now, there are a couple ofthings that go into that.
Some of it is that there arefewer women investors than there
are male investors, and it'sbecause women tend to their
money is going to families, isgoing to support people, stuff
like that, so they don't have itleft over to invest.
(12:15):
Women tend to be a little morenervous about investing, whereas
men will be like oh, I heargood things about this and jump
in, but that is actually whywomen are better investors,
because when they do, they'relike I'm not sure about this, so
I'm going to do my research,whereas men are like I got a hot
tip over the water cooler,let's go all in Dogecoin, and so
(12:38):
.
So that, to me, is like part ofwhat's interesting about seeing
Eve fight is that she hassituational awareness, which she
has learned because she hasbeen shut out of traditional
fighting because she's not sixfeet tall and 200 pounds, in the
same way that women have, likesituational awareness of their
(13:00):
money that they have had becausethey have been told don't worry
, you're pretty little head.
The men are talking about money, and so it's this amazing thing
where something that is a kindof a handicap.
You know people are like, don'tyou worry about it?
Or like, oh, you couldn't fight, you're too little, or whatever
becomes what you use to defeatpeople who underestimate you,
(13:25):
right, right so, but you do makea good point about how, like
the, the, the show doesimmediately pull the rug out
from under that by having herget shot, which is a shame.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So let's let's talk about mothers and daughters.
Yes, In this episode, yes,cause we've got Linda and and
her biological daughter.
Like, we have that beautifulmirroring when, when lucifer
asks, what do you really desirefrom each of them?
Linda wants to protect herdaughter and, uh, adriana wants
(13:59):
to protect her mom, but shedoesn't mean linda, she means
her adoptive mom.
But it is still nevertheless abeautiful mirroring of that,
yeah, yeah, that deepest desirethat he pulls from each of them,
and that's sort of aninteresting moment.
And what are the other mothersand daughters that you wanted to
(14:19):
unpack, maze?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
and Lilith.
So we don't see Lilith,obviously, but when she tries to
give Eve the ring, that hasLilith's immortality in it and
she's like you know, she stayedaway from me but at least I have
this of her and what it can dois protect me from pain, and Eve
(14:43):
very clearly me from pain, andEve very clearly rejects that,
and for good reason.
You know that this is not aboutEve, this is about Maze and in
some ways this is also aboutMaze's sense of abandonment
because of her mother.
Like I can't I had to livewithout my mother, I can't live
without you, the love of my life, and so it's a kind of a
(15:07):
retread of that trauma.
Maze is completelycomprehensible, like I totally
understand why she acts the wayshe does, and Eve's strength in
rejecting this offer is alsoamazing.
I want to highlight I love thatEve says mortality is a gift,
(15:28):
because it's something that Itruly believe, although it's a
little undercut by the fact thatshe knows that there's life
after death.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
There's something really weird and interesting
about the triangulation, too, ofLilith, eve and maze, because
Lilith and Eve are rivals of asword, right Like she is Adam's
ex, both like in the source textand within this universe I was.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I was thinking.
There was a moment where I hadthis thought like holy cow, this
show is very incestuous.
And then I was like, well, theBible is too Like the, the
original original sourcematerial.
It really is too, cause I I Ihad that thought as well Like,
so Eve ends up with the daughterof her father, ex-husband's,
(16:29):
ex-wife.
Yeah, I'm like can you imaginethat in the real world?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean, yeah, soap opera, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean that also, like as I waswatching in this rewatch.
I don't think I saw it in thefirst time, but in this rewatch
I also was thinking that couldcontribute to the rejection of
the ring.
Like, oh gosh, I wasn't eventhinking about that I don't
really want to wear a piece ofjewelry that was Lilith's.
(16:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know, like it's, it's.
It's not just mazes baggage,like Eve brought her own baggage
into that conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I think that's interesting.
She wasn't even able to justsay to maze like I want to be
with you, can we be together,she?
She had to come up with thisscheme, right.
The other, like I do want tolike spend a little more time
with the, adriana and Linda thatlovely moment, when Adriana
comes to Linda's house and youknow she had figured it out and
(17:31):
like I believe that, that thatthat must it out, and like I
believe that that that that mustbe the case, that like that,
that that's correct.
Like when you're adopted, youlook at anyone who looks a
little bit like you, who's aboutthe right age, like could it be
you, could it be you?
And that gave me a little bitof goosebumps, just because
knowing that Linda has beenthinking of this child every day
(17:54):
since she left her and knowingthat this child has been
thinking of her too, and I alsoreally appreciate, I'm very glad
and I don't know how they couldhave written it any other way
I'm very glad that Adriana endedup with the adoptive parents
she did.
They seem like they've done awonderful job.
(18:14):
They're very lovely, wonderfulpeople.
And she says the first time wesee her, which is several
episodes ago, she's like, oh,it's the best thing that
happened to me.
My mom and dad are great that.
You know.
Every parent who has given up achild for adoption wants to
believe that they made the rightchoice and I like, and I, I
(18:36):
like having reassurance, atleast in fictional form, and in
this case I mean, like linda waswhat 17 like there's she could
not have given adriana the lifethat adriana's parents gave her
right and the life that she'sgiving Charlie now Right, so
(18:59):
like she's in a position whereshe can make a generous donation
to the clinicwhere Adriana's mom is getting
treated to make sure that hermom's going to be okay, and that
moment was wonderful.
And then the other thing,because she put Charlie down to
go answer the door and Charliewas being quiet and then he
makes a noise.
She's like oh, you have a baby.
And I could see that being amoment of resentment.
(19:19):
And it wasn't, it was justwonder, and like that was also,
just like it was an emotionalrelease that was so satisfying.
I actually teared up when shesays I'm your sister, I did too.
I did too Because like how, oh,the world has opened up for
(19:39):
Adriana in a way right now, andfor Charlie and for Linda.
You know, she's probably neverhad like the we don't know if
she had any siblings in heradoptive family, but she has a
sibling, a biological sibling,biological sibling that she can,
whose life she can be a part ofand who can be part of her life
, and like what a gift, what alovely, lovely gift.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to talk about two morethings in this episode and then
we should move on.
So one you wanted to talk aboutthat lovely moment between
Amenadiel and Ella.
Yes, when Amenadiel sort ofrelieves Ella from the
babysitting Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, because he has that wonderful moment where he
meets with the rabbi, the imamand the priest.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, at Lux.
I actually was going to bringthat up as fluff.
I'll just do it parenthetically.
Now he says drinks are on meand the rabbi and the priest are
both like all right.
And the imam is just like hegives us this sort of indignant
look, which I thought was wellplayed.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yes, anyway.
So but because he's trying tothink of, like his future job as
God and like asking Ella, likewhat would you say to God if he,
if God, were in front of youright now?
And like, is there anything youwould change?
And you know her response is solovely, like you know God's
amazing Cause God's always therefor me.
(21:15):
God loves that and you know Ilove Amenadiel's response, which
is like can you take a littlebit of that faith that you have
in God and put it in yourself?
And like it's like the perfectthing to say, because it's not
like of course you're worthy orany of the things that would
like a person would couldimmediately shut down.
It was like can you try to dosomething that I think would be
(21:36):
good?
Because it is like you are good?
And yeah, I mean I reallyreally appreciated that moment
and it made me realize, like howgood a father, a menodeal, is
and will be, as as charlie growsup and then knowing how the the
show ends, it gives you a kindof glimpse into the type of
(21:58):
deity amenadiel will be and thecompassion and the knowing how
to meet people where they areyeah, yeah, you know, speaking
of knowing how the show ends,there's a.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
there's a moment when lucifer's talking to Linda and
says you know, he's describinghimself, but he's also sort of
projecting onto Linda, butaccurately, and she says maybe
you should be a therapist.
I noticed that too.
I was like oh hey,foreshadowing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
I think they do.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
That was, that was kind of cool, that was kind of
cool.
Yeah, that was kind of cool,that was kind of cool.
Yeah, I will say that scenebetween amenadiel and ella, when
she's like I wouldn't changeanything, I was like really you
won't change anything, yeah,yeah, I mean like in the next
episode when lucifer is like warwill be no more, you know, like
all the things he's gonnachange like even like a hangover
, like I mean they're, I canthink of some pretty good things
(22:50):
.
You know, I like and like I.
I wish they had written it sothat he had asked the question
more directly about herrelationship with God.
So when he asked it, like wouldyou change anything?
Like I just don't believe.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
There's nothing yeah, I mean I the way that I imagine
it is that in her estimationlike the things that are
imperfect about our world arebecause humans are imperfect
agreed yes, um, but then you'vegot like things like hurricanes
(23:29):
and tsunamis and like, okay,okay, those are, those are
climate change, but the the, thethings that are like acts of
God, that are just completelyunfair, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, anyway, the last thing I actually want to
talk about is Adriana'sboyfriend, owen.
So it's another one of thosecases, like I'm thinking about
race, right, so Owen's a blackguy, adriana's white and he
turns out to be the bad guy.
Right, he turns out to be amurderer and he like betrayed
(24:03):
Adriana, like he's a bad guy onmany levels and I feel like this
is not the first time wheresomebody was like we need more
diversity in this cast and I'mlike, oh, not the first time
where somebody was like we needmore diversity in this cast and
I'm like, oh, let's cast a blackguy and then let's make him the
villain, and then he turns outto be the villain.
Like I feel like we've seenthis again and again, like there
(24:26):
was the guy in the scene withthe actor boxer guy, the scene
with the, the actor boxer guy,the uh and and the, the agent
who had, like a jewish name butwas a black guy who was like a
total nebbishy.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
What was the bad guy?
Even like the I?
I for one.
Some reason I went back andre-watched the first and second
episode the um photographer, thepaparazzo in like the second
episode.
Who was the young black guy?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels like it's a pattern at
this point and I find it alittle disturbing and I don't
know what to do with it.
But, like I just think ourcasting crew like I'm not saying
don't cast black actors, butI'm just saying like not always
(25:17):
for the bad guys.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I don't know.
It's a, an episode about howthe, the black character, is
like struggling or, or, or youknow, up against like terrible
(25:38):
racial politics, something oflike caleb, or it's a.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
It's a character who's a bad guy and the the bad
guy ones are like ones thatactually the race is immaterial,
it's not a part of thestoryline.
Like their race, their racedoes not affect the storyline
could just as easily have been,in fact, like the one that I'm
thinking about from previousseasons, where he had a Jewish
(26:04):
name you know I don't.
I don't even know what I wantlike what I want different about
it, cause it's not.
I'm not saying that I don't.
I don't even know what I wantlike what I want different about
it, cause it's not.
I'm not saying that I don'twant more black actors in the
show.
I definitely do.
I just wish there were someawareness as to like the the
(26:25):
stereotypes and the patternsthat are being reified by the
casting.
You know so, I don't know.
Anyway, that was just somethingthat I noticed that you know is
interesting in this episode inparticular, where Adriana has a
black boyfriend and then has ablack brother, right, because
(26:45):
Charlie's black, and you know so.
We see this sort of.
You know, linda and Amanda dealpairing, and, and Adriana and
owen, but amanda was an angeland owen is gross, a bad person,
yeah.
So anyway, I I don't.
That's all I have to say aboutthat.
I don't actually have like adeep analysis, I'm just noting
(27:09):
it.
Yeah, wish it were different,wish it were different, yeah, so
, okay, well, that was a lot ofoverthinking on one episode.
Let's move on to.
Nothing lasts forever.
So I have some overthoughts onnothing lasts forever.
I know this is an episode thatcomes up on the regular between
you and me about where they have, um, where our our writers like
(27:30):
missed an so lay it on us.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So when Ella is in Linda's office and she's telling
the story of seeing a manalmost step into the street and
that is her reason for believingthere is darkness in her and
that there's something wrongwith her it is very clear that
Ella has intrusive thoughts and,like her, her um interaction
(28:00):
between her and Dennis Haysbertis just gorgeous.
Like I wrote it down, I wasgetting teary eyed and for the
most part, linda seems prettygood.
The problem is she didn't namethem as intrusive thoughts and,
like you know, for Ella, thecharacter whatever for people
(28:21):
watching, I wish they knew whatthat was, because I have had
intrusive thoughts my entirelife.
I had one when I was about 25that terrified me and I felt
terrible about it for years,like I thought it meant
something about me.
I did not know what they wereuntil I gave birth to my second
(28:43):
child and I still feel verylucky that nothing bad happened
because of this.
So after the baby was born, hecame at 1147.
So 13 minutes to midnight onFriday the 13th, and then then
they moved us into a room andhad me do paperwork because I'm
like hooray American healthcaresystem.
(29:04):
So I was a lot more honest onthe paperwork than I probably
should have been.
And one of the questions waslike do you ever think about
harming your child?
And I answered honestly becauseI do have intrusive thoughts
and hormones made them worse.
I had some terrible intrusivethoughts when I was pregnant
with my son or both of themactually and so my midwife came
in and talked to me about it andactually I think a service
(29:27):
worker came in and talked to meabout it as well, and I feel
very lucky because if I werefrom a more marginalized group,
they might've taken my baby awayfrom me.
But my midwife told me like, oh, that sounds like an intrusive
thought and I was like I finallyhad a name for it and I was
able to do some research andfind out like how common it is
(29:48):
and what, how it doesn't meananything and how it's.
That is not who I am, like thethe way that the things that my
research showed me was like tothink of it as like clouds in
the sky.
It just just let that driftpast.
The sky is who you are, theclouds are not, and so for a
(30:09):
show that I feel like has donesuch a good job of giving a
metaphor and meaning and voiceto various mental health
concerns.
It really missed the mark.
All they had to do was have atwo-second thing where Linda
says, well, that sounds likeintrusive thoughts, those are
(30:29):
very common.
And for Ella to say no, no, no.
I'm worse For her to justreject it and still have that
lovely moment with DennisHaysbert, just so that the
audience could know that's whatit is.
Because I know there are many,many people who are struggling
with the same thing, because Idid until I was 34 years old,
without knowing what it was andbeing too ashamed to ever tell
(30:52):
anyone about it because theythink it means they're a bad
person, as Ella does.
So, as Ella does, whereas she,like we have in that episode, at
the very beginning, she's likecan you imagine being eaten by a
shark and what would that mean?
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And Dan's like it's amazing tome how excited you get, even
about gruesome stuff, but I knowyou're doing it to help people.
(31:12):
And she like immediately shutsdown.
And like the thing is, herintrusive thoughts are so much
more gruesome than the averageperson's because of the work she
does.
She has it available in hermind for it to show up, for it
(31:33):
to show up, and so that'ssomething I I really wish they
had done differently, eventhough I have really appreciated
this storyline and the showing.
That, like the line that DennisHaysbert said, is something
along the lines of don't youunderstand the darker the
darkness, the brighter the light, and you shine so bright it can
be seen all the way from heaven, and I, like I really
appreciate that.
That's another way of like partof the reason, like with the
(31:57):
clouds on the sky metaphor, youcan see the clouds because the
sky is bright, you know, like ifit were a dark sky, you
couldn't see them and there areother ways to.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
There are other other metaphors, and that metaphor of
sort of the, the balancing, Ithink, comes up on the regular
and all different kinds of alldifferent kinds of people who
have or who are interpretingreality and are interpreting
human existence.
But that idea, that like of thebalance, that like we need the
(32:30):
darkness in order to appreciatethe light, or whatever you know,
or even you know, the, thelight always wins.
Right, if you're in a dark roomand you light one little candle
, the light wins, but you, butyou need the darkness in order
to appreciate the light.
Like that there's.
That's why we have the shadow,like if life were only joy, we
(32:53):
wouldn't appreciate it yeah,well, that's like the uh
original heaven in the goodplace, right right.
Yeah, so I I don't think thatour writers invented that sort
of idea.
No, I think they delivered itbeautifully from dennis
hazebert's god to, especially toella, who, as an audience, we
(33:17):
have come to love.
So I think that's definitelyworth noting.
Yeah, and then, sorry, are youready to move on, or do you do
you have?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
oh sure, sure I just like that's.
That's something like if ouraudience ever rivals anything
like close to a 16th of the uhof the original.
I hope that it it gets the ideaout that these are intrusive
thoughts.
It's a thing.
People have them.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
They are not who you are and I I just wish the show
had done that because it it wasa missed opportunity when it has
done so well in previously withuh with mental health issues I
mean, they did provide thatbeautiful metaphor, yes, from
the darkest darkness and thebrightest, the brightest light,
like they did give thatbeautiful metaphor, but
acknowledging that it's a thing,that it's normal that there's a
(34:03):
name for it.
Yeah, yeah, there's anotherexchange with denn Haysbert's
God that I thought we could talkabout, which is at the end with
God and Lucifer when God saysyou're right.
I was not a great father and orI could have been a better
(34:24):
father, and I love you and I'mproud of the man that you've
become, which is just sobeautiful.
And, like Ellis, delivered sobeautifully and ellis has such a
great job receiving it like youknow, and and then the the
really touching thing thatlucifer's immediate like after
the hug, his immediate thoughtis amenity I would like to hear
(34:45):
this too, which is also justreally sweet.
And it continues a pattern ofshowing us a minute, excuse me,
showing us lucifer's emotionalgrowth and genuine care for his
brother amenadiel and I.
I loved it and it feels like afantasy.
I mean, the whole show is afantasy, but in particular this
(35:08):
reconciliation between parentand adult child.
It feels like a fantasy that alot of us are seeking right now,
like not right this second, butlike in this moment.
You know, we saw it, um, beforewe started recording, you and I
were listing a bunch of placeswhere it shows up.
We see it in in Kanto withabuela.
We saw it in Ted Lasso with hismom.
(35:31):
We saw it in uh everything,everywhere, all at once yeah,
yep, and in seeing red and it'slike it's that reconciliation
where the parent of the adultchild says I did the best I
can't, I could, and it wasn'tgood enough or it still hurt you
(35:51):
, or whatever version of that uhneeds to be in that story and
they reconcile and and hug andeverything.
You know everyone lives happilyever after.
I also want that desperately.
Um, you know, our dad has beengone for 10 years now and I
(36:12):
didn't get it.
I didn't get it and he didn't.
He I mean he didn't emotionallyabuse me.
That I feel like the God ofthis show did to Lucifer.
And also there was some stuffhe could have done better and he
didn't.
We didn't have that moment.
We had the setup for it, butdad didn't take it.
He didn't.
We didn't have that moment.
We had the setup for it, butdad didn't take it.
(36:34):
He didn't take the opportunity.
And I think that's true of a lotof us.
Our age, like we gen xers, arewishing for that reconciliation
and so we're getting it in ourpop culture and I think that's.
There's a part of me that saysI'm really cynical, that I don't
(36:56):
believe that that's, that it'shappening, but I don't believe
that that would have happened ifthis were real.
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause obviously it's not real,
but there's also a sense that,like that's kind of what pop
culture does.
Yeah, that's kind of why welove it.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
You know, can I give you cause?
I am a Pollyanna.
Can I give you a a positivespin on this?
Sure, the Gen Xers who aremaking this content are not
going to get it from theirboomer parents, but they're
writing scripts for their fellowparents.
(37:37):
Yeah, for when their millennialand gen z and gen a kids grow
up and say like this this hurtme, the gen x parents who wrote
this or who consumed this, thispop culture will be able to say
you're right, I did the bestthat I could and it still wasn't
good enough for you in someways, but I love you and I'm
(38:04):
proud of the grownup you havebecome and the the millennials
and Gen Z and below will havegrown up with this as a part of
pop culture and expect it andexpect it from themselves for
their own kids I hope you'reright I hope you're right, yeah
and I like that makes me.
That's part of the reason why Ilove pop culture, is it?
It puts ideas into thezeitgeist that, whether or not
(38:26):
they're possible now, they canbecome possible in part because
we're all taking it in.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Right right, it's science fiction, it's psychology
fiction, family dynamic fiction.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Oh my gosh, I love that we should create a genre
psychology fiction.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And you know even some of that.
Like we, we I feel like we'veseen that in our lifetime.
Like pop culture led the way inin acceptance for, for lgbtq.
In a lot of ways now, popculture also led the way in in
being just hurtful and awful andand terrible, but the
transformative and and likeprogressive idea helped to, uh,
(39:18):
give people something to anchorthemselves to when their child
came out, when when theyrealized that they weren't what
they thought they were.
You know all of those things,so call me an optimist.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, you're an optimist, but I like it, I like
it, yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, so before we get to fluff, I just this is kind of fluff
but I actually like I have alittle bit of a bone to pick,
cause, you know, I like thenames.
I like, looking into the namesand sad KL, like it has the word
sadadek in it, which is likesaints or like righteous, so
(39:53):
like Sadekiel, like righteous ofGod, like yep.
There it is, it's right therein the Hebrew.
Remiel I briefly looked up islike there is a source text from
an apocryphal book of Enochwhere Remiel shows up and like
some of the names, like I, Ireally I deeply appreciate that.
(40:14):
Like if we're gonna pretend thecelestials are real, like let's
use their, let's use theirnames right.
And then they threw in thatjoke about the handsomest angel,
hand jobiel, like hand job and.
And I, I don't like it.
Y'all, I don't like it.
I this is a moment of meoverthinking it, but I don't
(40:38):
mind irreverence.
This whole show is irreverent.
That feels like making fun andthat I mind that.
I mind it.
It just feels I don't know it,it rubs me the wrong way and,
like in the next episode that Iaccidentally watched.
(41:00):
Like we'll meet someone who'slike just another um sibling,
who's just a jerk and whatever,and like a total bro, whatever.
Like, I don't even mind if the,the character, if the
personhood is reprehensible,because that's sort of what's
interesting, like is to questionwhether or not angelic equals
(41:22):
good, but hand jovial, yeah, itjust feels like a low blow.
It feels like you know what itis.
It's one of those moments where, like in the show, where, like
lucifer was taking dick pics andI was like it just doesn't fit.
(41:42):
It just doesn't fit.
Yeah, like, yeah, you've builtthis character, you've built
this world and you threw in alike 12 year old boy joke yeah,
it didn't.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
I have a 12 year old boy and he doesn't make jokes
like that.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You know it just didn't and like the first time
through, like I didn't reallynotice, but um, in re-watching
and overthinking on purpose andalso like some of the like fan,
like, haha, that's so funny,like anyway, that's enough
overthinking that for one moment.
(42:20):
So I think that you have somefluff.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
I do is when Mazikeen and Eve meet at the guy's house
and he's got a Hollingsheadpiece of art and she says what
is that really expensive pieceof art doing in this crappy
house in Van Nuys?
And I was like I don't know LosAngeles, I don't know anything
about Van Nuys, I don't know ifthat's a neighborhood, but that
house was not crappy.
(42:49):
I would like to live in thathouse.
It was a very lovely house.
So that was the first one andit was just a little one where
it's just like you need to dobetter with your set design.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
That's supposed to be crappy I mean the coffee table
that eve broke when maze threwher on.
It was like a cheap particleboard coffee table.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah, but I mean like living in Los Angeles you're
going to still have some of yourcollege furniture because it's
an expensive place to live.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, all right, what else?
Speaker 3 (43:27):
That was the first one.
The second one, we talked alittle bit about it, but when he
gets he fights the guy in thatJapanese tea house.
Oh my God, I don't know what itis, but like full suit,
barefoot, fighting.
I was like can I just just TomEllis?
(43:48):
I don't know why and I'm not afoot person.
I'm a Tom Ellis foot person,apparently.
Yeah, oh, my goodness, it wasjust so gorgeous.
The only thing that would havebeen better is if he were
wearing his black and white,because that's my favorite of
his suits.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, instead of the brown.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, instead of the brown.
Yeah, but I was willing to,I'll compromise.
So those are, those are my, uh,my fluffs.
Oh, and did you notice thenumber for the valet that he got
?
No uh, beginning of nothinglasts forever.
He, he gives the valet his carkeys and he gets number 666, of
course, he does.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yeah, so my fluff.
I have some continuity stuffright, like the big family
reunion for the retirement party, and like they just sort of
wave it away.
Lucifer says it's LA, nobodywill even notice.
But way back in season one wesaw that like just a glimpse of
(44:50):
divinity, like drove peopleinsane even in LA.
So that felt like a little bitlike of a way like which I think
God was there.
They could have waved it away adifferent way.
Yeah, yeah, so that like that.
Yeah, that bothered me a littlebit.
That's frustrating.
Yeah, they could have just saidlike God could have said like
oh, I put a glimmer on us, noone can see us, I don't know.
(45:12):
Yeah, you know.
Like that just felt likestraightforward enough for them
to do the other thing that's.
I don't even know if this isfluff, but like we don't have
time to get into it.
But the there's sort of thisrecurring joke.
I mean it's not, it's astoryline where, like Chloe's
(45:33):
having a hard time wrapping hermind around what it would mean
for Lucifer to become God and beher boyfriend, right, I mean
like it comes, it's a, it's alot.
It's like actually quite a bitof real estate airtime, quite a
bit of airtime in these twoepisodes and like, at one point
he says you'll be the future,the future Mrs G, which I I
thought was like, like aninteresting.
(45:54):
It stood out to me as the wayhe referred, referring to her
that way, the future mrs g, thatlike marriage doesn't feel,
like I don't know it, I it just.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
It was a little speed bump for me that I the the
entire him becoming God and theneven, like God, retiring to the
goddess's universe.
I struggle with if you'rethinking of God as one
understands God outside of thisshow, because God is all knowing
(46:32):
, god is all seeing, god iseverywhere, and so, like how how
can God go to another universeand never be seen again?
Like that doesn't, because Godis God of all universes.
And so, like the idea thatsomeone could quit the LAPD to
help her boyfriend be God, itjust doesn't compute, and so
(46:58):
that's one of the.
I rewatched the first fourseasons over and over again.
There's a bunch that I skip inseason three, but I am happy to
rewatch the entire first fourseasons, the fifth and sixth
season, season.
I rewatched the fifth when thesixth came out and then I'm
rewatching it for this, and I'malways I'm surprised at how much
I enjoy it because, like Iremember, it is not enjoying it,
(47:20):
and part of it is because ofthese like storylines that just
don't work logistically, andthey do, if you think of God as
being like a king of a smallplace yeah, rather than as God,
and they did a great job withwhat they had.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I mean they made Dennis Haysbert is God, like
there is a figure and a you knowa body and stuff, so yeah, but
yeah, yeah, I mean and part ofthe appeal, part of the charm,
is the ridiculousness of it Like, do I need to pull Trixie out
of school?
Yeah, but it also just like,even within that, even within
(48:04):
that conceit, I found it Like hecan't say I love you yet, yeah,
but he's calling her the futureMrs J.
I don't know, I just found.
Yet, yeah, but he's calling herthe future Mrs J.
I don't know, I just found that.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
It's a little bit too far, because, even like when I
try to wrap my head around theidea of Charlie being God's
grandson, what yeah?
It just doesn't fit.
So I mean, and that's one ofthose like, if you I mean crime
solving devil, it makes sense,don't overthink it.
(48:37):
But also there, there, therecomes to a level of absurdity
that you just have to like, okay, I'm just gonna go with it and
just imagine that god in thisuniverse is like not what even
they in the show are describingas god.
(48:59):
Yeah, you know, because I,because otherwise it's just, it
just breaks down in a way thatyou can't rebuild it.
Yeah, and if it were any like,if it were any actor other than
Tom Ellis who can, I think,could carry any level of
ridiculousness and sell it, andif it were any cast that weren't
(49:20):
as cohesive as this cast, Ithink this would have been like,
wait, what?
Yeah, really yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
So, and my last thing , my last piece of fluff, and
then I really need to go, causeI have to go pick up my youngin.
Is the goddess comes back, butshe looks like Charlotte
Richards and you actually solvedthat for me.
This is my mental, this is mymental canon now, cause when I
said that, when we watched itthe first time, you were like,
well, it's her last physicaliteration, so that's she just
(49:52):
like recreated it when she cameback.
So that's what my headcanon is.
But I still had a moment likethat wasn't her form, that
wasn't her physical form untilwhatever, two years ago.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
I actually I've seen people on on Reddit say like why
is Charlotte Richards with God?
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah, cause they don't even bother like
explaining it, they just andlike nor do I think they should
have, no, and I think you'relike they don't want you to
think too hard about it, but I Iappreciate your, your head, ken
, I'm like that was her lastphysical manifestation in this
world.
And so she like, reconstitutedor whatever, especially since
Charlotte isn't using that bodyright now.
Yeah, but yeah, that's my lastpiece of fluff for this one,
(50:39):
yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Yeah, Anyway, I have to.
It's a good one.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
There's a.
There's a lot to overthink inthese two episodes, oh my
goodness.
So there's.
There's more rich tech.
Like we, we could have keptgoing.
We absolutely could have keptgoing.
Oh my goodness, there was abunch of stuff we didn't even
cover.
Yeah, so, but I got to go getthe young in, or she will.
Yeah, it'll be bad.
You will hear about it.
I will need to be one of those.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Well, and in 30 years ?
In 30 years you'll be like Idid the best that I could, but
it wasn't good enough.
But I love you and I'm proud ofyou.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Exactly, exactly, okay.
See you next time, ma'am, seeyou next time.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(51:42):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
She does not use a hyphen, it's true, and I'm here
with my sister, tracyGuy-Deurken.
She does not use a hyphen.
It's true, and I'm here with mysister, tracy Guy-Decker she
does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yep, and together this show is Lightbringers,
where we illuminate the deepermeaning of the crime-solving
devil TV show and, yeah, we'reoverthinking it so much.
And today get to overthink, uh,episodes five 13 and five 14, a
little harmless stalking andnothing lasts forever.
(00:52):
And um, so I I just have tolike preface this so that our
listeners know like I screwed upwhen I was like watching and so
I watched five 13 and five 15.
And then you and I got togetherto record and I was like, did I
miss something?
What happened to this and whathappened to that?
And so I went back and watched.
So I've, you know I'm, I am onthe right page, but my
(01:18):
experience of five 14, nothinglasts forever is like colored by
having recently rewatched thenext episode, which is much,
much darker.
So I'm not looking forward to515 yeah, our next episode uh,
for these last, the last two inseason five, is gonna be a
little grim okay, but we'll getthere when we get there.
(01:41):
So I'm just, I just am likeframing sort of part of my
approach today to these twoepisodes, but let's actually dig
into them.
So let's start with a littleharmless stalking, where we get
some interesting Linda.
We get some interesting Linda.
Facetime, which is kind of cool, where she has stalking her
(02:01):
biological daughter who doesn'tknow she exists, and gets kind
of mixed up in some trouble andthen hijinks ensue.
So that's sort of the backstoryand there's a there's like the
opportunity for linda to not bethe compassionate receptacle,
(02:21):
the therapist yeah, you knowthere's.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I mean she, she's, she's los angeles's only
therapist.
But yeah, she even like at thevery beginning of the show she's
talking to maize on the on hercell phone in the car and she's
therapizing.
I, she's.
Yeah, it's a consultation,she's counseling, which I've
(02:48):
never been friends with atherapist before Exactly Not.
I mean, I have a friend who's aart therapist, which is a
little bit different, and youknow, we have a cousin who who
is a therapist, but I've neverbeen friends.
She's a sex therapist.
So yeah it doesn't come up.
She's awesome.
So I don't know if that is acommon role that a therapist
(03:13):
would fall into, because I feellike it would be overwhelming.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
A little busman's holiday too.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Yeah, but at the same time, how would you not?
You know someone's coming toyou saying these things.
It would be hard not to like gointo, like well, how's that
make you feel?
And you know, I'm really proudof you, and those sorts of
things and are an actualtherapist, but a therapist who
does the kind of talk therapythat Linda does how that works
(03:51):
out for them.
Because I wonder if it's likemy friend who's a comedian, who
doesn't want to be the personwho's like, hey, be funny,
you're the funny guy at parties.
You know, because that's my job.
I'm a person.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you wanted to talk about the.
In this episode there's a scenewhere Eve and Maze take on the
big scary guy.
Big scary guy, yeah, oh, yes,and you wanted to talk about
(04:24):
that sort of like the slightwoman fighting the big guy and
sort of that trope and how weview it.
So you had a demon and, withinthe canon of the story, she
can't be harmed by a human, theway that a human woman of her
size would appear to be harmed.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
We've seen her get hurt and stuff like that.
It's not that she can't be,it's just that there's the
superhuman aspect to Maze.
Eve though there is something alittle bit magical about her,
cause she was able to slip rightback into her old bones is
simply a human.
So she she bleeds like a human,she can die like a human.
She is, you know, she can breaklike a human, and we even see
(05:17):
that when she and maze fightafterwards she's like and cause
she's putting the peas on her,uh, on her head, and stuff like
that.
Something that has bothered mefor a long time is there's this
assumption that women can'tfight.
And it's not that women can'tfight, it's that women can't
(05:38):
fight like men fight, so, andEve does a really good job of
illustrating that.
So Maze is engaging the bigscary guy and Eve is looking to
go to help.
But she's in Bar-La-Vie, is thesame height as me, she's five
foot four, so she's not a supertall person and she is a very
slight woman, while I have nodoubt that she has pretty,
(06:01):
pretty good muscle tone and allof that.
This you know, I don't know,six foot, 200 pound guy, you
know, like if she's trying tolike box with him, that's not
going to work.
So she does something veryintelligent and she climbs up
the shelving, the warehouseshelving, and jumps on him.
Because, yeah, that is the wayto do it.
(06:24):
And I was reminded of there is amovie called Atomic Blonde with
Shirley Theron.
Came out like four or fiveyears ago, maybe longer, and
Shirley Theron is a spy.
She's fighting people in 1980sera Berlin, and she's sometimes
taking on like two or three menat once and it is like 200
(06:46):
pounds, six foot tall, likehardened boxers, and what she
does is she uses her environmentto help her fight because,
again, like if you're just likeI punch, you punch, it's she's,
she's not gonna win.
So there's there's one likeshe's in a stairwell and she
(07:18):
gets to a place where one of hersides is protected and she gets
a lamp and is's not how you'resupposed to fight, or that's.
You know, there's somethingwrong with using your
environment rather than justyourself, whereas there is this
level of cunning andintelligence and strategy
strategizing necessary to do allof that.
(07:41):
And I just, I, like, I love thatthis show gave us an
opportunity to see that.
You know, we see, I meanChloe's a badass.
We have seen her never quite inlike a fight but, you know,
like in in difficult situationsand can handle herself.
Maze obviously is amazing.
But again, she's not supposedto be human.
(08:03):
So getting to see Eve do thisin a way that is like true to
how a woman who looks like herwould be a bounty hunter, I
thought was phenomenal and Iwish we would see more of it and
normalize the fact that the waythat a woman who is built like
in Barlavi would fight is goingto be different from how a man
(08:25):
would fight, or even a woman whois taller and and broader would
fight, and that it is perfectlyreasonable and acceptable for
that to be a fighting style.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
And yeah, you know it's interesting that she gets.
She gets like in the story, shegets punished for it, she takes
a bullet for it.
So, yes, interesting, which I Ididn't put for it.
So that's an interesting whichI I didn't put put it together
in that way until I'm listeningto you talk about it, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
But even, even it's hard to say, you know, this is
one of those things wherebecause something happens so
rarely, so seeing a woman fightwhen we get like anything that
happens in the story isrepresentative, whereas if this
were, you know, just a tuesday,because like we see it in every
(09:12):
episode of lucifer, it would belike oh no, this is just, you
know, the plot needed it,because then maze yeah, yes, yes
, yes.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
and and like in the next episode that we're pairing
together, like there's the scenein the whatever the Japanese
tea house is where Lucifer'sfighting the guy in the red with
the, the, the bamboo swords,and then the guy throws the
bamboo sword away and pulls anactual samurai sword and Lucifer
(09:42):
says, well, this is not a fairfight, let's make it fair.
And he throws his bamboo swordaway, away and like gestures
with his bare hands, yeah, whichis sort of like the hyper
masculine opposite of whatyou're talking about.
Like not only is he going tofight the right way, like he
even needs fewer, fewer weaponsthan this other guy, and so like
(10:07):
, based on your analysis, basedon your analysis, and with these
two together, and that fightingscene that we see in the very
next episode, like I sort ofthink eve got punished for it
yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I'm also thinking because I just recently watched
Princess Bride again for theunbelievably unnumbered times
time, and the scene when Fezzikand the man in black are
fighting it's like it's moresportsmanlike.
According to Fezzik, you knowno tricks, no weapons, skill
against skill alone.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know, you mean you put down your rock and I put
down my sword and we try tokill each other like civilized
people yeah, well, actuallywhat's really interesting about
that is that physics says skillagainst skill, but that's not
what he means, right, he meanslike hand to hand, like physical
strength against physicalstrength, because part of like
(11:05):
the man in black wins because ofstrategery yeah, yeah, well,
and that that's like part of theskill that eve has in this
episode and part of the skillthat charlie's throne
character's character has inthis episode, is the situational
awareness, yeah, which someonewho is, you know, six foot tall
and 200 pounds, like it's.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
It's the old joke where does a 600 pound gorilla
sleep?
Wherever he wants to doesn'tneed situational awareness, um,
and the the importance ofsituational awareness.
You know this.
This comes back to my, one ofmy favorite statistics in my, my
, my day job, the, the the thingI do for real because I write
(11:47):
about finance.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
This is real.
This is real, but nobody's, butnobody's paying us for it.
Nobody's paying me for this yet.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yet is the fact that women are statistically better
investors than men.
Now, there are a couple ofthings that go into that.
Some of it is that there arefewer women investors than there
are male investors, and it'sbecause women tend to their
money is going to families, isgoing to support people, stuff
like that, so they don't have itleft over to invest.
(12:15):
Women tend to be a little morenervous about investing, whereas
men will be like oh, I heargood things about this and jump
in, but that is actually whywomen are better investors,
because when they do, they'relike I'm not sure about this, so
I'm going to do my research,whereas men are like I got a hot
tip over the water cooler,let's go all in Dogecoin, and so
(12:38):
.
So that, to me, is like part ofwhat's interesting about seeing
Eve fight is that she hassituational awareness, which she
has learned because she hasbeen shut out of traditional
fighting because she's not sixfeet tall and 200 pounds, in the
same way that women have, likesituational awareness of their
(13:00):
money that they have had becausethey have been told don't worry
, you're pretty little head.
The men are talking about money, and so it's this amazing thing
where something that is a kindof a handicap.
You know people are like, don'tyou worry about it?
Or like, oh, you couldn't fight, you're too little, or whatever
becomes what you use to defeatpeople who underestimate you,
(13:25):
right, right so, but you do makea good point about how, like
the, the, the show doesimmediately pull the rug out
from under that by having herget shot, which is a shame.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
So let's let's talk about mothers and daughters.
Yes, In this episode, yes,cause we've got Linda and and
her biological daughter.
Like, we have that beautifulmirroring when, when lucifer
asks, what do you really desirefrom each of them?
Linda wants to protect herdaughter and, uh, adriana wants
(13:59):
to protect her mom, but shedoesn't mean linda, she means
her adoptive mom.
But it is still nevertheless abeautiful mirroring of that,
yeah, yeah, that deepest desirethat he pulls from each of them,
and that's sort of aninteresting moment.
And what are the other mothersand daughters that you wanted to
(14:19):
unpack, maze?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
and Lilith.
So we don't see Lilith,obviously, but when she tries to
give Eve the ring, that hasLilith's immortality in it and
she's like you know, she stayedaway from me but at least I have
this of her and what it can dois protect me from pain, and Eve
(14:43):
very clearly me from pain, andEve very clearly rejects that,
and for good reason.
You know that this is not aboutEve, this is about Maze and in
some ways this is also aboutMaze's sense of abandonment
because of her mother.
Like I can't I had to livewithout my mother, I can't live
without you, the love of my life, and so it's a kind of a
(15:07):
retread of that trauma.
Maze is completelycomprehensible, like I totally
understand why she acts the wayshe does, and Eve's strength in
rejecting this offer is alsoamazing.
I want to highlight I love thatEve says mortality is a gift,
(15:28):
because it's something that Itruly believe, although it's a
little undercut by the fact thatshe knows that there's life
after death.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
There's something really weird and interesting
about the triangulation, too, ofLilith, eve and maze, because
Lilith and Eve are rivals of asword, right Like she is Adam's
ex, both like in the source textand within this universe I was.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
I was thinking.
There was a moment where I hadthis thought like holy cow, this
show is very incestuous.
And then I was like, well, theBible is too Like the, the
original original sourcematerial.
It really is too, cause I I Ihad that thought as well Like,
so Eve ends up with the daughterof her father, ex-husband's,
(16:29):
ex-wife.
Yeah, I'm like can you imaginethat in the real world?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I mean, yeah, soap opera, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean that also, like as I waswatching in this rewatch.
I don't think I saw it in thefirst time, but in this rewatch
I also was thinking that couldcontribute to the rejection of
the ring.
Like, oh gosh, I wasn't eventhinking about that I don't
really want to wear a piece ofjewelry that was Lilith's.
(16:58):
Yeah, yeah, you know, like it's, it's.
It's not just mazes baggage,like Eve brought her own baggage
into that conversation.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
I think that's interesting.
She wasn't even able to justsay to maze like I want to be
with you, can we be together,she?
She had to come up with thisscheme, right.
The other, like I do want tolike spend a little more time
with the, adriana and Linda thatlovely moment, when Adriana
comes to Linda's house and youknow she had figured it out and
(17:31):
like I believe that, that thatthat must it out, and like I
believe that that that that mustbe the case, that like that,
that that's correct.
Like when you're adopted, youlook at anyone who looks a
little bit like you, who's aboutthe right age, like could it be
you, could it be you?
And that gave me a little bitof goosebumps, just because
knowing that Linda has beenthinking of this child every day
(17:54):
since she left her and knowingthat this child has been
thinking of her too, and I alsoreally appreciate, I'm very glad
and I don't know how they couldhave written it any other way
I'm very glad that Adriana endedup with the adoptive parents
she did.
They seem like they've done awonderful job.
(18:14):
They're very lovely, wonderfulpeople.
And she says the first time wesee her, which is several
episodes ago, she's like, oh,it's the best thing that
happened to me.
My mom and dad are great that.
You know.
Every parent who has given up achild for adoption wants to
believe that they made the rightchoice and I like, and I, I
(18:36):
like having reassurance, atleast in fictional form, and in
this case I mean, like linda waswhat 17 like there's she could
not have given adriana the lifethat adriana's parents gave her
right and the life that she'sgiving Charlie now Right, so
(18:59):
like she's in a position whereshe can make a generous donation
to the clinicwhere Adriana's mom is getting
treated to make sure that hermom's going to be okay, and that
moment was wonderful.
And then the other thing,because she put Charlie down to
go answer the door and Charliewas being quiet and then he
makes a noise.
She's like oh, you have a baby.
And I could see that being amoment of resentment.
(19:19):
And it wasn't, it was justwonder, and like that was also,
just like it was an emotionalrelease that was so satisfying.
I actually teared up when shesays I'm your sister, I did too.
I did too Because like how, oh,the world has opened up for
(19:39):
Adriana in a way right now, andfor Charlie and for Linda.
You know, she's probably neverhad like the we don't know if
she had any siblings in heradoptive family, but she has a
sibling, a biological sibling,biological sibling that she can,
whose life she can be a part ofand who can be part of her life
, and like what a gift, what alovely, lovely gift.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to talk about two morethings in this episode and then
we should move on.
So one you wanted to talk aboutthat lovely moment between
Amenadiel and Ella.
Yes, when Amenadiel sort ofrelieves Ella from the
babysitting Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, because he has that wonderful moment where he
meets with the rabbi, the imamand the priest.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, at Lux.
I actually was going to bringthat up as fluff.
I'll just do it parenthetically.
Now he says drinks are on meand the rabbi and the priest are
both like all right.
And the imam is just like hegives us this sort of indignant
look, which I thought was wellplayed.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Yes, anyway.
So but because he's trying tothink of, like his future job as
God and like asking Ella, likewhat would you say to God if he,
if God, were in front of youright now?
And like, is there anything youwould change?
And you know her response is solovely, like you know God's
amazing Cause God's always therefor me.
(21:15):
God loves that and you know Ilove Amenadiel's response, which
is like can you take a littlebit of that faith that you have
in God and put it in yourself?
And like it's like the perfectthing to say, because it's not
like of course you're worthy orany of the things that would
like a person would couldimmediately shut down.
It was like can you try to dosomething that I think would be
(21:36):
good?
Because it is like you are good?
And yeah, I mean I reallyreally appreciated that moment
and it made me realize, like howgood a father, a menodeal, is
and will be, as as charlie growsup and then knowing how the the
show ends, it gives you a kindof glimpse into the type of
(21:58):
deity amenadiel will be and thecompassion and the knowing how
to meet people where they areyeah, yeah, you know, speaking
of knowing how the show ends,there's a.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
there's a moment when lucifer's talking to Linda and
says you know, he's describinghimself, but he's also sort of
projecting onto Linda, butaccurately, and she says maybe
you should be a therapist.
I noticed that too.
I was like oh hey,foreshadowing, yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
I think they do.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
That was, that was kind of cool, that was kind of
cool.
Yeah, that was kind of cool,that was kind of cool.
Yeah, I will say that scenebetween amenadiel and ella, when
she's like I wouldn't changeanything, I was like really you
won't change anything, yeah,yeah, I mean like in the next
episode when lucifer is like warwill be no more, you know, like
all the things he's gonnachange like even like a hangover
, like I mean they're, I canthink of some pretty good things
(22:50):
.
You know, I like and like I.
I wish they had written it sothat he had asked the question
more directly about herrelationship with God.
So when he asked it, like wouldyou change anything?
Like I just don't believe.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
There's nothing yeah, I mean I the way that I imagine
it is that in her estimationlike the things that are
imperfect about our world arebecause humans are imperfect
agreed yes, um, but then you'vegot like things like hurricanes
(23:29):
and tsunamis and like, okay,okay, those are, those are
climate change, but the the, thethings that are like acts of
God, that are just completelyunfair, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, anyway, the last thing I actually want to
talk about is Adriana'sboyfriend, owen.
So it's another one of thosecases, like I'm thinking about
race, right, so Owen's a blackguy, adriana's white and he
turns out to be the bad guy.
Right, he turns out to be amurderer and he like betrayed
(24:03):
Adriana, like he's a bad guy onmany levels and I feel like this
is not the first time wheresomebody was like we need more
diversity in this cast and I'mlike, oh, not the first time
where somebody was like we needmore diversity in this cast and
I'm like, oh, let's cast a blackguy and then let's make him the
villain, and then he turns outto be the villain.
Like I feel like we've seenthis again and again, like there
(24:26):
was the guy in the scene withthe actor boxer guy, the scene
with the, the actor boxer guy,the uh and and the, the agent
who had, like a jewish name butwas a black guy who was like a
total nebbishy.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
What was the bad guy?
Even like the I?
I for one.
Some reason I went back andre-watched the first and second
episode the um photographer, thepaparazzo in like the second
episode.
Who was the young black guy?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels like it's a pattern at
this point and I find it alittle disturbing and I don't
know what to do with it.
But, like I just think ourcasting crew like I'm not saying
don't cast black actors, butI'm just saying like not always
(25:17):
for the bad guys.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
I don't know.
It's a, an episode about howthe, the black character, is
like struggling or, or, or youknow, up against like terrible
(25:38):
racial politics, something oflike caleb, or it's a.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
It's a character who's a bad guy and the the bad
guy ones are like ones thatactually the race is immaterial,
it's not a part of thestoryline.
Like their race, their racedoes not affect the storyline
could just as easily have been,in fact, like the one that I'm
thinking about from previousseasons, where he had a Jewish
(26:04):
name you know I don't.
I don't even know what I wantlike what I want different about
it, cause it's not.
I'm not saying that I don't.
I don't even know what I wantlike what I want different about
it, cause it's not.
I'm not saying that I don'twant more black actors in the
show.
I definitely do.
I just wish there were someawareness as to like the the
(26:25):
stereotypes and the patternsthat are being reified by the
casting.
You know so, I don't know.
Anyway, that was just somethingthat I noticed that you know is
interesting in this episode inparticular, where Adriana has a
black boyfriend and then has ablack brother, right, because
(26:45):
Charlie's black, and you know so.
We see this sort of.
You know, linda and Amanda dealpairing, and, and Adriana and
owen, but amanda was an angeland owen is gross, a bad person,
yeah.
So anyway, I I don't.
That's all I have to say aboutthat.
I don't actually have like adeep analysis, I'm just noting
(27:09):
it.
Yeah, wish it were different,wish it were different, yeah, so
, okay, well, that was a lot ofoverthinking on one episode.
Let's move on to.
Nothing lasts forever.
So I have some overthoughts onnothing lasts forever.
I know this is an episode thatcomes up on the regular between
you and me about where they have, um, where our our writers like
(27:30):
missed an so lay it on us.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
So when Ella is in Linda's office and she's telling
the story of seeing a manalmost step into the street and
that is her reason for believingthere is darkness in her and
that there's something wrongwith her it is very clear that
Ella has intrusive thoughts and,like her, her um interaction
(28:00):
between her and Dennis Haysbertis just gorgeous.
Like I wrote it down, I wasgetting teary eyed and for the
most part, linda seems prettygood.
The problem is she didn't namethem as intrusive thoughts and,
like you know, for Ella, thecharacter whatever for people
(28:21):
watching, I wish they knew whatthat was, because I have had
intrusive thoughts my entirelife.
I had one when I was about 25that terrified me and I felt
terrible about it for years,like I thought it meant
something about me.
I did not know what they wereuntil I gave birth to my second
(28:43):
child and I still feel verylucky that nothing bad happened
because of this.
So after the baby was born, hecame at 1147.
So 13 minutes to midnight onFriday the 13th, and then then
they moved us into a room andhad me do paperwork because I'm
like hooray American healthcaresystem.
(29:04):
So I was a lot more honest onthe paperwork than I probably
should have been.
And one of the questions waslike do you ever think about
harming your child?
And I answered honestly becauseI do have intrusive thoughts
and hormones made them worse.
I had some terrible intrusivethoughts when I was pregnant
with my son or both of themactually and so my midwife came
in and talked to me about it andactually I think a service
(29:27):
worker came in and talked to meabout it as well, and I feel
very lucky because if I werefrom a more marginalized group,
they might've taken my baby awayfrom me.
But my midwife told me like, oh, that sounds like an intrusive
thought and I was like I finallyhad a name for it and I was
able to do some research andfind out like how common it is
(29:48):
and what, how it doesn't meananything and how it's.
That is not who I am, like thethe way that the things that my
research showed me was like tothink of it as like clouds in
the sky.
It just just let that driftpast.
The sky is who you are, theclouds are not, and so for a
(30:09):
show that I feel like has donesuch a good job of giving a
metaphor and meaning and voiceto various mental health
concerns.
It really missed the mark.
All they had to do was have atwo-second thing where Linda
says, well, that sounds likeintrusive thoughts, those are
(30:29):
very common.
And for Ella to say no, no, no.
I'm worse For her to justreject it and still have that
lovely moment with DennisHaysbert, just so that the
audience could know that's whatit is.
Because I know there are many,many people who are struggling
with the same thing, because Idid until I was 34 years old,
without knowing what it was andbeing too ashamed to ever tell
(30:52):
anyone about it because theythink it means they're a bad
person, as Ella does.
So, as Ella does, whereas she,like we have in that episode, at
the very beginning, she's likecan you imagine being eaten by a
shark and what would that mean?
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And Dan's like it's amazing tome how excited you get, even
about gruesome stuff, but I knowyou're doing it to help people.
(31:12):
And she like immediately shutsdown.
And like the thing is, herintrusive thoughts are so much
more gruesome than the averageperson's because of the work she
does.
She has it available in hermind for it to show up, for it
(31:33):
to show up, and so that'ssomething I I really wish they
had done differently, eventhough I have really appreciated
this storyline and the showing.
That, like the line that DennisHaysbert said, is something
along the lines of don't youunderstand the darker the
darkness, the brighter the light, and you shine so bright it can
be seen all the way from heaven, and I, like I really
appreciate that.
That's another way of like partof the reason, like with the
(31:57):
clouds on the sky metaphor, youcan see the clouds because the
sky is bright, you know, like ifit were a dark sky, you
couldn't see them and there areother ways to.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
There are other other metaphors, and that metaphor of
sort of the, the balancing, Ithink, comes up on the regular
and all different kinds of alldifferent kinds of people who
have or who are interpretingreality and are interpreting
human existence.
But that idea, that like of thebalance, that like we need the
(32:30):
darkness in order to appreciatethe light, or whatever you know,
or even you know, the, thelight always wins.
Right, if you're in a dark roomand you light one little candle
, the light wins, but you, butyou need the darkness in order
to appreciate the light.
Like that there's.
That's why we have the shadow,like if life were only joy, we
(32:53):
wouldn't appreciate it yeah,well, that's like the uh
original heaven in the goodplace, right right.
Yeah, so I I don't think thatour writers invented that sort
of idea.
No, I think they delivered itbeautifully from dennis
hazebert's god to, especially toella, who, as an audience, we
(33:17):
have come to love.
So I think that's definitelyworth noting.
Yeah, and then, sorry, are youready to move on, or do you do
you have?
Speaker 3 (33:25):
oh sure, sure I just like that's.
That's something like if ouraudience ever rivals anything
like close to a 16th of the uhof the original.
I hope that it it gets the ideaout that these are intrusive
thoughts.
It's a thing.
People have them.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
They are not who you are and I I just wish the show
had done that because it it wasa missed opportunity when it has
done so well in previously withuh with mental health issues I
mean, they did provide thatbeautiful metaphor, yes, from
the darkest darkness and thebrightest, the brightest light,
like they did give thatbeautiful metaphor, but
acknowledging that it's a thing,that it's normal that there's a
(34:03):
name for it.
Yeah, yeah, there's anotherexchange with denn Haysbert's
God that I thought we could talkabout, which is at the end with
God and Lucifer when God saysyou're right.
I was not a great father and orI could have been a better
(34:24):
father, and I love you and I'mproud of the man that you've
become, which is just sobeautiful.
And, like Ellis, delivered sobeautifully and ellis has such a
great job receiving it like youknow, and and then the the
really touching thing thatlucifer's immediate like after
the hug, his immediate thoughtis amenity I would like to hear
(34:45):
this too, which is also justreally sweet.
And it continues a pattern ofshowing us a minute, excuse me,
showing us lucifer's emotionalgrowth and genuine care for his
brother amenadiel and I.
I loved it and it feels like afantasy.
I mean, the whole show is afantasy, but in particular this
(35:08):
reconciliation between parentand adult child.
It feels like a fantasy that alot of us are seeking right now,
like not right this second, butlike in this moment.
You know, we saw it, um, beforewe started recording, you and I
were listing a bunch of placeswhere it shows up.
We see it in in Kanto withabuela.
We saw it in Ted Lasso with hismom.
(35:31):
We saw it in uh everything,everywhere, all at once yeah,
yep, and in seeing red and it'slike it's that reconciliation
where the parent of the adultchild says I did the best I
can't, I could, and it wasn'tgood enough or it still hurt you
(35:51):
, or whatever version of that uhneeds to be in that story and
they reconcile and and hug andeverything.
You know everyone lives happilyever after.
I also want that desperately.
Um, you know, our dad has beengone for 10 years now and I
(36:12):
didn't get it.
I didn't get it and he didn't.
He I mean he didn't emotionallyabuse me.
That I feel like the God ofthis show did to Lucifer.
And also there was some stuffhe could have done better and he
didn't.
We didn't have that moment.
We had the setup for it, butdad didn't take it.
He didn't.
We didn't have that moment.
We had the setup for it, butdad didn't take it.
(36:34):
He didn't take the opportunity.
And I think that's true of a lotof us.
Our age, like we gen xers, arewishing for that reconciliation
and so we're getting it in ourpop culture and I think that's.
There's a part of me that saysI'm really cynical, that I don't
(36:56):
believe that that's, that it'shappening, but I don't believe
that that would have happened ifthis were real.
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause obviously it's not real,
but there's also a sense that,like that's kind of what pop
culture does.
Yeah, that's kind of why welove it.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
You know, can I give you cause?
I am a Pollyanna.
Can I give you a a positivespin on this?
Sure, the Gen Xers who aremaking this content are not
going to get it from theirboomer parents, but they're
writing scripts for their fellowparents.
(37:37):
Yeah, for when their millennialand gen z and gen a kids grow
up and say like this this hurtme, the gen x parents who wrote
this or who consumed this, thispop culture will be able to say
you're right, I did the bestthat I could and it still wasn't
good enough for you in someways, but I love you and I'm
(38:04):
proud of the grownup you havebecome and the the millennials
and Gen Z and below will havegrown up with this as a part of
pop culture and expect it andexpect it from themselves for
their own kids I hope you'reright I hope you're right, yeah
and I like that makes me.
That's part of the reason why Ilove pop culture, is it?
It puts ideas into thezeitgeist that, whether or not
(38:26):
they're possible now, they canbecome possible in part because
we're all taking it in.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Right right, it's science fiction, it's psychology
fiction, family dynamic fiction.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Oh my gosh, I love that we should create a genre
psychology fiction.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
And you know even some of that.
Like we, we I feel like we'veseen that in our lifetime.
Like pop culture led the way inin acceptance for, for lgbtq.
In a lot of ways now, popculture also led the way in in
being just hurtful and awful andand terrible, but the
transformative and and likeprogressive idea helped to, uh,
(39:18):
give people something to anchorthemselves to when their child
came out, when when theyrealized that they weren't what
they thought they were.
You know all of those things,so call me an optimist.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yeah, you're an optimist, but I like it, I like
it, yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, so before we get to fluff, I just this is kind of fluff
but I actually like I have alittle bit of a bone to pick,
cause, you know, I like thenames.
I like, looking into the namesand sad KL, like it has the word
sadadek in it, which is likesaints or like righteous, so
(39:53):
like Sadekiel, like righteous ofGod, like yep.
There it is, it's right therein the Hebrew.
Remiel I briefly looked up islike there is a source text from
an apocryphal book of Enochwhere Remiel shows up and like
some of the names, like I, Ireally I deeply appreciate that.
(40:14):
Like if we're gonna pretend thecelestials are real, like let's
use their, let's use theirnames right.
And then they threw in thatjoke about the handsomest angel,
hand jobiel, like hand job and.
And I, I don't like it.
Y'all, I don't like it.
I this is a moment of meoverthinking it, but I don't
(40:38):
mind irreverence.
This whole show is irreverent.
That feels like making fun andthat I mind that.
I mind it.
It just feels I don't know it,it rubs me the wrong way and,
like in the next episode that Iaccidentally watched.
(41:00):
Like we'll meet someone who'slike just another um sibling,
who's just a jerk and whatever,and like a total bro, whatever.
Like, I don't even mind if the,the character, if the
personhood is reprehensible,because that's sort of what's
interesting, like is to questionwhether or not angelic equals
(41:22):
good, but hand jovial, yeah, itjust feels like a low blow.
It feels like you know what itis.
It's one of those moments where, like in the show, where, like
lucifer was taking dick pics andI was like it just doesn't fit.
(41:42):
It just doesn't fit.
Yeah, like, yeah, you've builtthis character, you've built
this world and you threw in alike 12 year old boy joke yeah,
it didn't.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
I have a 12 year old boy and he doesn't make jokes
like that.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
You know it just didn't and like the first time
through, like I didn't reallynotice, but um, in re-watching
and overthinking on purpose andalso like some of the like fan,
like, haha, that's so funny,like anyway, that's enough
overthinking that for one moment.
(42:20):
So I think that you have somefluff.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
I do is when Mazikeen and Eve meet at the guy's house
and he's got a Hollingsheadpiece of art and she says what
is that really expensive pieceof art doing in this crappy
house in Van Nuys?
And I was like I don't know LosAngeles, I don't know anything
about Van Nuys, I don't know ifthat's a neighborhood, but that
house was not crappy.
(42:49):
I would like to live in thathouse.
It was a very lovely house.
So that was the first one andit was just a little one where
it's just like you need to dobetter with your set design.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
That's supposed to be crappy I mean the coffee table
that eve broke when maze threwher on.
It was like a cheap particleboard coffee table.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Yeah, but I mean like living in Los Angeles you're
going to still have some of yourcollege furniture because it's
an expensive place to live.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Yeah, all right, what else?
Speaker 3 (43:27):
That was the first one.
The second one, we talked alittle bit about it, but when he
gets he fights the guy in thatJapanese tea house.
Oh my God, I don't know what itis, but like full suit,
barefoot, fighting.
I was like can I just just TomEllis?
(43:48):
I don't know why and I'm not afoot person.
I'm a Tom Ellis foot person,apparently.
Yeah, oh, my goodness, it wasjust so gorgeous.
The only thing that would havebeen better is if he were
wearing his black and white,because that's my favorite of
his suits.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, instead of the brown.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, instead of the brown.
Yeah, but I was willing to,I'll compromise.
So those are, those are my, uh,my fluffs.
Oh, and did you notice thenumber for the valet that he got
?
No uh, beginning of nothinglasts forever.
He, he gives the valet his carkeys and he gets number 666, of
course, he does.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Yeah, so my fluff.
I have some continuity stuffright, like the big family
reunion for the retirement party, and like they just sort of
wave it away.
Lucifer says it's LA, nobodywill even notice.
But way back in season one wesaw that like just a glimpse of
(44:50):
divinity, like drove peopleinsane even in LA.
So that felt like a little bitlike of a way like which I think
God was there.
They could have waved it away adifferent way.
Yeah, yeah, so that like that.
Yeah, that bothered me a littlebit.
That's frustrating.
Yeah, they could have just saidlike God could have said like
oh, I put a glimmer on us, noone can see us, I don't know.
(45:12):
Yeah, you know.
Like that just felt likestraightforward enough for them
to do the other thing that's.
I don't even know if this isfluff, but like we don't have
time to get into it.
But the there's sort of thisrecurring joke.
I mean it's not, it's astoryline where, like Chloe's
(45:33):
having a hard time wrapping hermind around what it would mean
for Lucifer to become God and beher boyfriend, right, I mean
like it comes, it's a, it's alot.
It's like actually quite a bitof real estate airtime, quite a
bit of airtime in these twoepisodes and like, at one point
he says you'll be the future,the future Mrs G, which I I
thought was like, like aninteresting.
(45:54):
It stood out to me as the wayhe referred, referring to her
that way, the future mrs g, thatlike marriage doesn't feel,
like I don't know it, I it just.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
It was a little speed bump for me that I the the
entire him becoming God and theneven, like God, retiring to the
goddess's universe.
I struggle with if you'rethinking of God as one
understands God outside of thisshow, because God is all knowing
(46:32):
, god is all seeing, god iseverywhere, and so, like how how
can God go to another universeand never be seen again?
Like that doesn't, because Godis God of all universes.
And so, like the idea thatsomeone could quit the LAPD to
help her boyfriend be God, itjust doesn't compute, and so
(46:58):
that's one of the.
I rewatched the first fourseasons over and over again.
There's a bunch that I skip inseason three, but I am happy to
rewatch the entire first fourseasons, the fifth and sixth
season, season.
I rewatched the fifth when thesixth came out and then I'm
rewatching it for this, and I'malways I'm surprised at how much
I enjoy it because, like Iremember, it is not enjoying it,
(47:20):
and part of it is because ofthese like storylines that just
don't work logistically, andthey do, if you think of God as
being like a king of a smallplace yeah, rather than as God,
and they did a great job withwhat they had.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I mean they made Dennis Haysbert is God, like
there is a figure and a you knowa body and stuff, so yeah, but
yeah, yeah, I mean and part ofthe appeal, part of the charm,
is the ridiculousness of it Like, do I need to pull Trixie out
of school?
Yeah, but it also just like,even within that, even within
(48:04):
that conceit, I found it Like hecan't say I love you yet, yeah,
but he's calling her the futureMrs J.
I don't know, I just found.
Yet, yeah, but he's calling herthe future Mrs J.
I don't know, I just found that.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
It's a little bit too far, because, even like when I
try to wrap my head around theidea of Charlie being God's
grandson, what yeah?
It just doesn't fit.
So I mean, and that's one ofthose like, if you I mean crime
solving devil, it makes sense,don't overthink it.
(48:37):
But also there, there, therecomes to a level of absurdity
that you just have to like, okay, I'm just gonna go with it and
just imagine that god in thisuniverse is like not what even
they in the show are describingas god.
(48:59):
Yeah, you know, because I,because otherwise it's just, it
just breaks down in a way thatyou can't rebuild it.
Yeah, and if it were any like,if it were any actor other than
Tom Ellis who can, I think,could carry any level of
ridiculousness and sell it, andif it were any cast that weren't
(49:20):
as cohesive as this cast, Ithink this would have been like,
wait, what?
Yeah, really yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
So, and my last thing , my last piece of fluff, and
then I really need to go, causeI have to go pick up my youngin.
Is the goddess comes back, butshe looks like Charlotte
Richards and you actually solvedthat for me.
This is my mental, this is mymental canon now, cause when I
said that, when we watched itthe first time, you were like,
well, it's her last physicaliteration, so that's she just
(49:52):
like recreated it when she cameback.
So that's what my headcanon is.
But I still had a moment likethat wasn't her form, that
wasn't her physical form untilwhatever, two years ago.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
I actually I've seen people on on Reddit say like why
is Charlotte Richards with God?
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah, cause they don't even bother like
explaining it, they just andlike nor do I think they should
have, no, and I think you'relike they don't want you to
think too hard about it, but I Iappreciate your, your head, ken
, I'm like that was her lastphysical manifestation in this
world.
And so she like, reconstitutedor whatever, especially since
Charlotte isn't using that bodyright now.
Yeah, but yeah, that's my lastpiece of fluff for this one,
(50:39):
yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Yeah, Anyway, I have to.
It's a good one.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
There's a.
There's a lot to overthink inthese two episodes, oh my
goodness.
So there's.
There's more rich tech.
Like we, we could have keptgoing.
We absolutely could have keptgoing.
Oh my goodness, there was abunch of stuff we didn't even
cover.
Yeah, so, but I got to go getthe young in, or she will.
Yeah, it'll be bad.
You will hear about it.
I will need to be one of those.
Speaker 3 (51:02):
Well, and in 30 years ?
In 30 years you'll be like Idid the best that I could, but
it wasn't good enough.
But I love you and I'm proud ofyou.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Exactly, exactly, okay.
See you next time, ma'am, seeyou next time.
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(51:42):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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