These two final episodes of season five pack and emotional wallup. With more than one major character death (though 2 don’t stay dead), the Guy girls both admit to shedding some tears, even in rewatch.
The views we get of both Heaven and Hell have Emily and Tracie thinking deeply about the nature of punishment, the compatibility of justice with pain, and whether or not free will is worth the huge risk we face to have it.
We help each other with head canon around why Michael behaves the way he does, how Lee managed to get out of Hell, and what’s going on for Chloe when she confesses to no longer feeling guilty on her death bed.
As we often do, we speculate a bit around alternative storytelling paths the showrunners might have taken, and unlike our sometime-dissatisfaction with Lauren German, both sisters agree the actress rose to the occasion in this season.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi there.
I'm here with my sister, TracyGuy-Decker, who does use a
hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yep, and I'm here with my sister Emily Guy-Burken.
No hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe Crime Solving Devil TV show
, and today we're going to beilluminating episodes 515 and
516.
Is this really how it's goingto end and a chance at a happy
ending?
In other words, the last twoepisodes of season five and yeah
boy, they're grim.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, these two are brutal and actually, before we
even get started, I have to makea correction because in our
last episode I complained alittle bit about some dialogue
that actually was not from 513and 514.
It's from 515.
So listeners who pointed it outto me, thank you for your eagle
eyes.
I really appreciate it.
You're right.
(01:11):
As I mentioned in the lastepisode, I kind of got mixed up
and watched 515 when I wassupposed to be watching 514.
Anyway, so correction made andlet's talk about these two.
We should, we try to like, staychronological.
So 515 is this really how it'sgoing to end?
(01:32):
Where we lose dan whoo?
It's a rough one.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
it's a rough one it's rough because I've seen these
before, you know I I know it'scoming and so I know now that it
was intentional.
But I remember, on the firstwatch through, while he's
playing Unstable Unicorns withTrixie, I remember thinking like
, oh yeah, we haven't reallyseen him interacting like you
(01:57):
know, just being a dad withTrixie and how much I
appreciated it and I liked itand, of course, like you know,
immediately pull the rug outfrom under you.
There's a reason why they havethat in this episode and
presumably, like this is goingon all the time.
This is just you know, you justhappen to see it in this
episode.
You know you want to believethat because of all the things
that he doesn't feel confidentabout, he knows he's a good dad
(02:21):
and the and the, the like.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
all right, I'll let you wear my glitter scarf, but
you have to wear it.
Wear it.
Yeah, it's adorable.
Yeah, you know watching itagain too, and and I watched it
again again, since I watched itfor our last, for our last
recording there were some somethings that, like I guess you're
right, there was an intentionallike we witnessed him being a
good dad, and actually I thinkthere was a moment where, right
(02:50):
before he's captured, where wewitnessed him being a good cop,
because even in the like, therewatch and the rewatch and the
rewatch, like, I was actuallylooking for what were the clues
that the woman in the house whocomes to the door like what?
What clues did he pick up on?
That it might be a possiblehome invasion, and I I didn't
(03:14):
see it.
And so I think that I thinkyou're not supposed to.
I think that's kind of thepoint is that he's a good cop.
He's got that situationalawareness, he's got that
situational awareness andsomehow like notice the sort of
the tiny things, the micro cluesthat the woman was putting off,
you know, with the gun to herhead.
(03:34):
So I think that that wasanother you know sort of setting
up for us, like reminding us ofDan, not just the goofball but
actually like competent dan,which I think was important for
in this episode.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
yeah, yeah well, and the the fact that he knew, like
he held on to say caleb to chloeand he knew the significance of
it.
I don't know that he knew whatit meant, but knew that it was
something significant and thatit needed to be shared and that
(04:11):
Chloe would figure it out andhim fighting back his competence
and going I'm so tired, I'm sotired with his head down.
So the guy comes closer to hearwhat he's saying and then he
headbutts him and I think hemanages to kill that guy so
(04:32):
tired.
Is that what he said?
I only the only reason I knowis because I had subtitles on oh
.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I thought, oh, okay, that's smart.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought he said you're gonna die and like the
thing is I, the first time Iwatched it I couldn't hear what
he was saying.
It was just, it sounded likewhispering, and and so it was
only because I had the subtitleson.
And you know you, you put thosetogether and you like, oh, okay
, yeah, I hear what he's saying,but he was just saying
something just to get him tocome closer.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was all like very, very impressive.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, yeah, and very, very impressive, yeah, yeah.
And that's another moment whereyou get the rug pulled out from
under you with dan, because youthink he's gonna make it when
he defeats the guy who's beenassigned to kill him.
You really, for a moment, youthink he's gonna make it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's brutal it really is the scene in
the hospital when Trixie comesin.
Oh my gosh, I remember whenthis season came out and I
remember watching it and likejust tears and so, knowing it
(05:37):
was coming, I was thinking Iwould be okay.
But no, yeah me neither.
I was really really crying.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
There's something very powerful about the exchange
between Trixie and Lucifer, whois almost never just sincere
and heartfelt.
Yes, Certainly not with Trixie.
So the my dear sweet child likethat.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
that's when I started crying when, when Ellis
delivered those lines yeah, Ialso I want to highlight the
when they're trying to findlamech and I can't remember I
think it's before they found dan, so they don't.
They don't know if he's aliveor not, and maze like, first of
(06:24):
all maze comes in.
Who took dan?
I'm going to find them rightnow.
And then you know Lucifer'slike you know who's good at
finding criminals, othercriminals Like I've gave you
know favors.
She's like what should I callin?
And he's like all of them, yeah.
And so that makes it so clearhow important Dan is that?
(06:48):
And Amenadiel saying at thefuneral.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
He was and will always be my best friend.
I think in particular thecalling in all of the favors
helps to underscore your pointfrom several episodes ago, the
Daniel Espinoza, naked andafraid.
So my recollection of your kindof take on that on that episode
was the you know how much Danactually matters to him, that he
(07:10):
went through so much trouble todo the prank, that you know the
very elaborate prank, that hewent to so much trouble, so much
money, so much effort that thatwas kind of evidence of
Lucifer's actual regard for Dan,which to be honest I just find
unsatisfying in that episode.
And now here we are severalepisodes later and we hear him
(07:33):
saying call in all the favors,like whatever it takes to find
Dan, which I think actually doesbolster your take on what was
going on in that previousepisode about the importance of
the relationship between thesetwo men, so or man and celestial
.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So I think that validates your point from from
that episode yeah, yeah, I wasjust thinking how cavalierly he
says call them all in, becausethat's something where it's not
that he doesn't call in favors,but but they're currency.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah, they are a currency for him and yeah, it's
how he operates.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
It is his you know income of a sort, and and so to
call them all in, yeah, yeah,it's a big deal, yeah so I do
have a question plot wise, whichI know just in terms of where
the story goes in season six whydidn't Maze and Lucifer kill
Lamech when they found him?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, I think that the explanation comes later,
because they kill all hishenchmen.
Yes, and then Lucifer whisperssomething to him, which we don't
know what it is, although it'sinteresting you mentioning Dan
whispering, like there's sort ofan interesting mirroring
between the two whispers.
But yeah, what?
(08:58):
Where are you going with this?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So I have read and I believe it, whether I but I'm
not sure if I'm looking for thepattern or not, but I've read
people's theories saying thatwhat Lucifer whispers into
Lamech's ears is he was myfriend and watching it this time
with that in mind.
It looked like that.
(09:20):
That was what he said.
I might be wrong.
You know, it's one of thosethings where don't we don't.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
We hear in season six .
I don't, I don't think so.
But because lamech like wantsto punish lucifer the way that
lucifer punished him like andlike, and lamex I I guess maybe
like seeing the red eyes andhearing that that might strike
(09:47):
fear, but because Lamex response, his face is sort of tortured.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So and honestly I season six is the only season
I've I have.
Just I've watched only onceyeah, me too, and I binged it
and I don't remember detailsyeah, we're gonna get there.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yeah, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get there.
So, yeah, I mean the.
The implication, even justwithin what we have here, is
that there is whatever hewhispered, you know, whatever
like satanic incantation.
The devil whispered in his earwas somehow itself punishing.
But but, yeah, I, I don't havea.
(10:30):
There's no clear answer fromwhat we've been given at this
point, yeah, at this point, yeah, so, okay, I have some
continuity, things like withinthe whole story arc which we've
talked about before.
But here they are again thefeather this isn't it's in the
second episode, but the featherRemy's feather they bring to
(10:54):
Ella, for, you know, forsleuthing.
In the first season we weregiven angel feathers as, like
themselves, miraculous andmagical.
You know, like maze uses one oflucifer's feathers that she had
kept in order to heal amenediel who's been cut badly
(11:15):
with a demon blade and she justlike presses it on him and
lights up the entire city yeah,yeah and, and here we are just
like playing with this feather,like it's an emu feather, yeah,
and like we just forgot.
We just forgot the best, whichit bothers me a little bit,
(11:41):
because I feel like they createdsome beautiful kind of rules
that now it's not even thatthey're breaking them.
I feel like they just forgotthat they exist.
So I found that a little bitbothersome.
On the other hand, you know, wehave Ella in the same series of
scenes, like right adjacent toher, thinking it's an emu
feather, talking to God andsaying like it's almost like
(12:03):
you're not up there anymore, andasking for a sign which is
immediately granted.
When Chloe walks in the doorand says you know, ella says
please, I need a sign that I'min the right place, and Chloe
immediately walks through thedoor and says Ella, thank God,
you're here.
So which Ella recognizes as thesign that it is.
So there's.
So there's sort of aninteresting kind of back and
(12:26):
forth around a question.
It's a question with mixedmessages for the answer about
what divinity is and how itinteracts with humans.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So in that second episode there's a moment where
Amenadiel and Linda are withCharlie and Linda is being a
very overprotective mom becauseCharlie, every time he stands he
falls down and Amenadiel ismore amused than anything else.
I mean, like this is how youlearn.
(12:59):
You know, this is how humanslearn they need to get up and
fall down, and getting up afterhaving fallen down is the most
empowering thing possible.
And then there is this whenthey bury Remy, there is a
similar moment where he'srecognizing that's what God, as
(13:20):
a parent, did, which is giveeveryone free will so that they
could fall down and get up again, even if it meant things like
his children would die.
And I like, on the one hand, Ifind that very beautiful, on the
other hand, I struggle with itbecause the stakes are so high.
But then again, that's true, Imean even with, with, with
(13:44):
babies.
You know, like a friend of minewas talking about recently.
She's a four-year-old who gotaway from her in the parking lot
and and went tearing off andshe was very lucky that there
was a like a car stopped in timeand and all of that scared her
to death and so like thatdoesn't mean she shouldn't have
talked a lot.
You know, not that you teach,but you know what I mean.
So I mean, the stakes are thathigh.
(14:08):
It just whew, it feels sopotentially ugly.
You know that he created, youknow, just looking at the angels
and like Michael is so cravenand needing of power.
But that's his choice, likehe's choosing to be that way.
(14:29):
He could be another way and Idon't know.
It gets into some deep stuffand is the reason why I like the
show, even when I am lesssatisfied with this era of the
show than I am with the firstfour seasons.
I'd say In part because I feellike you talk about dramatic
irony quite a bit, and when theviewers in Lucifer are the only
(14:52):
ones who know that he's actuallythe devil, well, lucifer and
the Celestials, there'ssomething more satisfying about
that than when everyone's in onit.
But bringing up these questionsof like in on it but you know,
bringing up these questions oflike is it's more loving to
allow your children to be whothey are, even if it leads to
(15:13):
disaster, than to impose yourwill on them.
And like, well, you put it thatway, yes, but oh, my goodness,
like.
But couldn't there beguardrails?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, um, let's talk about,
let's actually talk aboutmichael.
You just brought him up, um,and how craven he is.
It's really interesting michael, in these two episodes, because
he is like, he's just kind ofawful, you know, like lucifer is
unable to bring himself to killt the fence, and then Michael
(15:45):
does it without even thinking hekills their sister Remy.
He's just kind of awful, hekills Chloe, and then we have a
moment where he seems to notexactly regret it, but there
does seem to be some sympathythat he's having for Lucifer in
that moment, seem to be somesympathy that he's having for
(16:05):
lucifer in that moment hedoesn't attack lucifer while
lucifer is mourning, which issort of what the craven guy that
we've been seeing would havedone.
Yeah, instead he's sort of likeyou should have taken the deal,
because now you'll never see heragain, and there does seem to
be some genuine it's not remorsebut but sympathy for the devil.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
To coin a phrase.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And then when she wakes up after he gives her the
ring and chooses her in heavenand he says I can't believe he
did it, I can't believe hebrought you back Only for me to
kill you again.
And it's like I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I have a theory.
I'd love to hear it.
So my theory is that Michael isLucifer's shadow, he is his
other half and so, seeing histwin having that kind of anguish
, he feels something for histwin that he can't feel even for
(17:06):
his brothers and sisters.
But he very clearly has noregard for humans and he doesn't
actually care about chloe.
And now that I can't believe hedid it, he believes lucifer's
destroyed right so why?
there's no reason.
So why?
Why let her live?
So that would be my, my take onthat.
(17:29):
And there is something likelike it feels like everything he
does is in reaction to lucifer.
No, we're not twins.
I'm the younger sibling and Ifeel, I feel the the like
comparison's not the right word,because people didn't like this
was not anything you ever did.
Uh, this was more just theexpectations of like family and
(17:49):
society and stuff like that.
The best example of this isneither of us had a bat mitzvah
when we were 13.
You decided in your 20s thatyou wanted to have a bat mitzvah
, so you were a bat mitzvahed asan adult.
The whole family came.
It was lovely and at thereception, every single member
(18:10):
of our extended family turned tome and said so when are you
going to do it?
And never Now.
I can't Thank you.
You've made it impossible.
So and like I know that thatlike, as it was happening, I
knew it was irrational, but atthe same time, like I did not
(18:31):
want my choices to be comparedto your choices and my choices
to look like you know, trailingafter, like hey, wait for me.
And so I can comprehendsomewhat what Michael is doing
and his willingness to sacrificeso much, in part because he is
(18:52):
very specifically settinghimself separate from his
brother.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I hear that.
All right, I want to talk abouthell and the throne.
This is another one that, likeyou pointed out, when Lilith
dies and then we're told thathell doesn't need a keeper, like
you were anticipating thatbecause Lilith was going to rule
over her children down there.
Anticipating that becauseLilith was going to rule over
her children down there, and Ithink that would have been
beautiful, and instead it's justthis sort of like I mean, you
(19:24):
can rule if you want to, right,like even talking about Maze
going to be the queen, the Mazzaqueen.
It's just, it feels like amissed opportunity for a much
neater, a much neater narrativeelement.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Well, and it could have been really interesting,
also with the fact that Mazewould have known she'd have to
depose her own mother, and thatcould have been really juicy
interesting stuff, consideringhow complicated their
relationship is.
Yeah, and so would she beexcited to depose her own mother
, I mean like she'd claim to be,but would she then like
(20:03):
hesitate, and I mean there'd beso much, there'd be so much that
I think would be, it would havebeen very rich.
But instead it's this like handwave, like god said.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
it's okay um yeah, yeah, but then there's still
hand wave, Like God said, it'sokay.
Um, yeah, yeah, but thenthere's still there's still talk
about who's going to rule.
It's just it.
Obviously it didn't interestthe writer's room that much
because they just let it, let itlie, yeah, but I think it could
.
It could have been really,really interesting and it it.
It bothers me a little that wedidn't have more structure
(20:34):
around the question.
So that's just something thatlike comes up for me when you
know, when maze is dressed as abony xylophone.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, okay, speaking of hell,let's let's talk about heaven.
I had forgotten that, mr Soda.
I it's not that I'd forgotten,I just didn't remember where in
these episodes it happened.
And so when I saw JeremiahBurkett's name, I was very
excited.
So we learned that he hasfigured out a way out of hell to
(21:08):
get to heaven.
He's the first soul to ever dothat, and it's because he took
Lucifer's advice.
And just for one thing, a partof me is just teary-eyed at the
idea that Lee not only getspeace, he gets paradise.
He had suffered so much oversomething that he didn't need to
(21:32):
because his sister adored him.
He didn't need to because his,his sister adored him, even as
she despaired over him.
I'm actually I'm gettingteary-eyed about this fictional
character.
And then the fact that herecognizes lucifer's part in
that and is like I want to helpyou because you helped me, and
(21:54):
like is just, but he's stillhimself like, he's like.
So says the guy who just fellout of the sky.
You know, there's still leethere, he's still got that right
sense of humor, he's still.
And then the moment that had melike squealing with excitement,
when this first air, or when Ifirst watched.
(22:15):
It was when Lee says I don'tknow what the fork is happening,
because that is very clearlyreferenced to the good place,
the show with Ted Danson andKristen Bell, which we both also
love.
Yeah, and I had for a long timefelt like these shows were in
conversation with each other,because they both have a similar
(22:38):
view of what makes somethinghell.
It's, you know, you aretorturing yourself and it's
because of it's not explicitlyguilt in a good place, but it is
more that it's human nature andso for.
(22:59):
For the showrunners, thewriters because it's joan ildy
who wrote that episode to makeit clear that they also
appreciate the good place andthey also see it as grappling
with these kind of big issuesand big questions was just
really exciting.
I really was.
Was was excited to see that andit feels like, because it's a
(23:19):
different show, heaven inLucifer is actually heaven,
whereas we found out in the GoodPlace it's still imperfect, the
system still is not quite right.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know, thinking about hell and like
how people are tortured.
One of the things that I'm sortof trying to wrap my mind
around is the fact.
I mean, we know that souls aretortured by their guilt, the
demons make it happen, but whenwe have been in hell before, the
(23:51):
hell loops we've seen havemainly been people's sort of
death, right like what has ledto their death, although maze
tells us, I think, in theepisode before that, these two,
that she knows now that she hasa soul, when she dies it'll go
to hell and her, her siblingswill torture her with that
hospital room where she walkedaway from eve.
I'm just thinking about likethe lack of alignment there and
(24:17):
even with right, like even withlee.
Lee was reliving the day of hisdeath on the boat, on the
fascism boat, you know, in hishell loop, but what he was
actually guilty, feeling guiltyabout, was that not going into
his sister's data shower.
So, like I'm, and like they'vemade it clear, they've said that
(24:39):
the souls are not, most of thedoors are not even locked and
that the souls could leave atany time.
We have discussed, I think evenon the show, the fact that we
do see some locked in our head.
Canon from you I'm pretty sureis that those are the torture
cells of psychopaths andsociopaths who don't feel guilt,
yeah, but still still belong inhell.
(25:00):
So they actually do have chainsand locks, but for the average
human, their guilt keeps them soand and yet it's a death based
loop.
That may or may not haveanything to do with which we'll
see actually in season six withwhen we hear from Dan about
Dan's experience.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So, specifically for Lee, I wonder if his hell loop
is in part like about even onthat.
Like that, his things are goinggreat, he has a yacht,
everything's wonderful.
There's still a big part ofthem, him, that feels guilty
that he doesn't are going great.
He has a yacht, everything'swonderful.
There's still a big part of himthat feels guilty that he
doesn't have a sister, that hewalked away from her, and so the
(25:43):
hell loop is not the specificday because he dissociates from
that, like he can't even likelook at it.
His hell loop is when he's ontop of the world.
It's still not enough and heimmediately dies that's nice.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
That's nice.
How does he get back to thedoor?
That was the one that he neededto go through?
Well, how does he?
How does he break out of thatdeath?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
well, once I think once he's been with lucifer and
been through like they weretrying to solve his murder.
Um, like he can move he canmove.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
He can move a little more freely?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
um, because he has a?
Um, and I was under theimpression although I don't
remember what he says, but thathe might have just like sat in
front of that door for howeverlong it took before he could
walk in.
So he might not have even goneback to other aspects, other
places in hell.
He might have just sat thereand sat there and sat there and
finally said he's right, I needto go in, yeah, yeah, maybe and,
(26:47):
like you know, the demonswouldn't have kept an eye on him
or anything like that Cause,like no one ever leaves Right,
so why do we need to wait?
He'll come back to his regularhell loop eventually, okay,
maybe.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
So it was also interesting that lee tells
lucifer like, yeah, this isheaven, um, or at least one of
its rooms.
I'm still getting the lay ofthe land.
So that was useful, that wasuseful exposition.
And also I was like, how doesdoes Lee know that Chloe's here?
Because Lucifer says I need toget to the detective and Lee
(27:22):
says, yeah, she's here, he knowsexactly where she is.
And like, does every residentof heaven know where every other
resident is?
That's a lot of people.
That's a lot of peoplePresumably Well, we don't know.
Well, according to the GoodPlace, it's actually not that
many anyway, those were a coupleof the things that were like
while I was watching.
I was like, okay, so devil goesto heaven, don't overthink it.
(27:45):
I, I, it makes sense, don'toverthink it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I I'm happy to hand wave that.
The thing that got me was whenMichael says, oh, you're going
to go up to heaven andimmediately burn up because
you've been banished.
And he was like okay, this isthe first we've heard of it.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Well, he does say he can't go back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Oh many times.
And it's just like what kepthim out was never explained to
be something physical that wouldhappen to him.
But even that I'll give it'sjust there's.
The seams are showing a littlebit more.
Yeah, that's part of why I'mnot as satisfied by these
(28:30):
seasons, even though I foundmyself so.
I really appreciated thatmetaphor about like parents
allowing their children to failUh-huh, and I also really
appreciated Lucifer'sconversation with Linda where
he's like the system is broken,it's unjust and it's interesting
(28:53):
because he's talking about life, but I can't help but feel like
he's also talking aboutcriminal justice system.
He uses the word system andunjust.
I recently saw there's aYouTuber I like he's an
ex-evangelical and so he talksabout the ways that evangelical
(29:18):
culture affects the culture as awhole and one of the things he
talked about recently was theappearance of Satan imagery and
he was talking about the showLucifer.
He's like I have friends whoreally love it, but I just could
not get over the fantasy ofcops being good and I actually I
have had that.
(29:39):
We've talked before about howthis show is, copaganda and our
very mixed feelings about it.
A story I read recently aboutthe LAPD and I can't even
remember what horror it wasbecause there have been so many
made me feel like, oh mygoodness, this is so.
There's this disconnect betweenthe show that I adore that
(30:02):
makes it clear that cops are thegood guys and reality, and it
was funny, but also true, thatthis YouTuber is saying like,
yeah, the fantastical element Ican't swallow is the idea that
cops are good, not that, youknow, the devil walks among us
(30:23):
and falls in love, yeah, and soI feel like this does kind of
set things up for for what wesee in season six, and and and
it's also interesting thinkingabout Amenadiel deciding to
become a police officer, which Idon't know.
(30:43):
It feels like an odd decision,even though it leads to some
really, really interestingconversational stuff, like in
conversation with the lack ofjustice, in human justice that
we we will get to in season six.
But it's, it's, it's morepropaganda in some ways, and
(31:04):
that's, it's just it's, it's,it's painful.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, it's deeply troubling.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah.
But it also makes me so, takingLucifer's rant at face value,
that he is going to create aworld without pain, and it is
admirable and understandable whyhe's saying that.
But Linda's absolutely rightyou cannot have joy without pain
(31:34):
, right joy without pain.
And trying to create a justsystem from the top down seems
like a recipe for fascism.
A just system has to come fromthe bottom up, I think, and
without trying to control forthings being painful.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
It's an interesting juxtaposition too, because I
think the presence of justicedoes not require the complete
absence of pain.
I think, yeah Right, itrequires the appropriate
responses to pain, it requiresnot causing pain
disproportionately to peoplebecause of their identity, you
(32:22):
know like but but justice is notthe absence of pain.
Yeah, presumably there will beless pain in a more just world,
but not no pain, yeah, so that'sa sort of an interesting
conversation there that you'renoticing, because he, he is at
face value talking about life,but he does use the word justice
(32:43):
, that or you know there's nojustice or it's not just, or
something like that.
So, yeah, that's an interestingand you know, linda's response
is actually not about justice,it's about pain.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
yeah, yeah, and suffering, and it does in some
ways feel like Lucifer has asense of justice.
Well, so at the end of the lastepisode, because Michael has
said it's to the death andLucifer agrees, and had Michael
won, he would have killed hisbrother.
(33:15):
Had Michael won, he would havekilled his brother.
But Lucifer, by cutting off hiswings, he meets out a
consequence, but it's a justconsequence, it's not an over.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I mean, I don't know, I don't know if it's just or
not.
It's not death, it's not death.
Yeah, you know, that sceneactually is really interesting
because michael meals, likeearlier, michael had the flaming
sword and blister punched himin the face.
So, like the possession of thesword is not enough to for the
(33:51):
other to be required tosurrender, I guess you know the
shock of having him come backfrom the incineration, of going
back to heaven.
I don't know, I actually foundthat a curious moment.
Yeah, that Michael surrenderedbasically.
Yeah, it was also curious whenand here's another like they
(34:12):
forgot the rules, so when, ormaybe they didn't, but when
Chloe has Michael on the groundand she's got Azrael's blade
through his throat, he says doit, which I don't actually think
that Michael would say, that Ithink he would try to weasel his
way out of it and he would tryto figure out what she was
(34:33):
afraid of and use it andweaponize it.
Afraid of, and and and use itand weaponize it.
And in earlier episodes, whenwe, when we first met the blade
welcome to stabby town.
Like when humans held it, theywent crazy.
They were unable to controltheir violent impulses when they
held the sword.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So, but, dan, was able to to fight it off.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Yes, you stole my pudding, it was labeled,
although it was hard for him,though, yeah it was hard for him
and his.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
His grievance with lucifer was much smaller than
chloe's grievance with michaelyeah, now chloe also was holding
the peace, that's true.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
she's also got the strength, yeah, so maybe that's
an explanation.
Also, she's a special humansince she was created by divine
decree.
Um, you know, so I can, I thereare ways in which I can sort of
offer explanations for that,but it did feel like a bit of a
like I wish they'd said but Iguess we didn't really have time
I would have liked an officialexplanation.
(35:36):
Like you had the strength tofight the swords you know pull
because you were holding thepiece.
I don't know, I don't know, butI would have liked an official
explanation of why Chloe wasable to, you know, to fight the
impulse.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, Um, you know I.
As for why Michael Neal's?
I think it's his realizationthat he doesn't have anything
other than the sword.
Like without the sword, hedoesn't have anything to fight
with, I guess.
Or well, he doesn't haveanything to fight for.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
You know, I guess I don't know he has all the.
I mean, that's the thing too,like they kept talking about the
swing votes, but I meanpresumably we the thing too,
like they kept talking about theswing votes, but I mean
presumably we thought peoplewould come with them, even if
he'd gotten all three of them orall four of them, like the
whole all of the siblings werebehind Michael.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Some of that has to do with they filmed during COVID
, and so I think if this had notbeen filmed in 2020, or maybe
it was 2021, I think we wouldhave had a much larger group,
and that's also why I think itwas in the.
They filmed it in the stadium.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It was a Coliseum.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, because if they like, if they filmed that many
people in a room, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
So, but even of the people that we had, there was
Tzadkiel.
That was it, and then the oneunnamed sister, so we had met a
couple of them that he wastrying to lobby, like the one
who, like the Iron Chef,tzadkiel yeah, sarah, he called
(37:25):
her and then dophiel, who thebro, and sad kale.
There were the only three.
Oh yeah, there were the onlythree swing votes, so-called
swing votes.
I mean, are we to presume thatother siblings would come if
they, those three, had beenconvinced but they didn't?
For tzadkiel, I would havethought the angel of
righteousness would have, yeah,a few folks being like, oh well,
(37:46):
if tzadkiel thinks that luciferis the right one, um, like, I
don't know, I I wish I'd seen alittle bit more.
It was funny.
It was funny when lucifer, whensad kiel, makes this big thing
and like one person comes overand then lucifer's like, oh, uh,
oh, I thought that was gonna bea whole thing.
Yeah, um, like that was funny,but I do sort of wish I'd seen a
little bit more.
(38:07):
I don't know, like strugglingwith it on the faces of the
siblings or something.
Yeah to, because how, how, howwas, how was this?
How was there ever a path tothe throne for lucifer.
If those were the only threepossible, yeah ones he could
change.
And there were the 25, orhowever many there were, I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's confusing to me well, I wonder if, like some of
it is like that's not all theangels, they're not all there.
So there are other people whooh, you think they weren't.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
they weren't supposed to all be there.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, no, no, no, that's definitely not all the
angels, oh, okay, well, becauseI mean Azrael wasn't there, so I
mean there's.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Well, yeah, so maybe presumably others who have jobs
that they can't take a breakfrom.
Yeah, besides Azrael.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And they would have been swayed by.
But then, like, why aren't theythere?
I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Yeah, this is one of those ones that, like the reason
that they suggested it makessense and don't overthink it.
This is one of those ones that,on a little bit of scratching,
you're like wait a minute, thiswhole storyline doesn't actually
work.
Yeah, yeah, so we've beentalking for a while.
Let's talk about the almost fanservice of the moment of I
(39:22):
choose you and then his, hedisintegrates.
Let's talk about that for amoment.
Yeah, so he has told us that he, he's told Chloe, and thereby
us, that he believes he isincapable of love.
It's just not in his makeup tolove, and he's been telling Todd
(39:44):
Kiel and others that love isthe reason that he wants to be
God.
So there's like that's sort ofan interesting thing that, like
he knows he loves her but healso thinks he's incapable of
love.
And then, facing his ownerasure, it's, it's death, but
it's different, you know, ashe's like incinerating.
(40:05):
They play it like it's painful.
That's when he's able toactually tell her, which is for
the fans, like finally, he saidit.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You know, I do have to say that kind of mirrors the,
the, the moment when he tellschloe that the reason why he
wants to be god is so he can beworthy of her, and her reaction
feels appropriate oh, my god,yeah, um, like, are you kidding
(40:37):
me?
Yeah, yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Oh for F sake, yeah, it's like yeah, um, yeah.
And then you're telling me.
You're telling me that Dan isdead, because you still don't
know how I feel about you.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, I thought that was well-written and
well-delivered.
I believed it.
Yeah, I believed it.
Love her is, I think, what thatreally is.
But I also am imagining ifsomeone were like well, I'm
taking this major job that'sgoing to change everything about
our lives, because otherwisethere's no way that I would feel
(41:30):
worthy of you.
I'd be like don't put that onme.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yeah, right, so that's the other aspect of it,
although I mean, if he had toldher before dan died, that
probably would have been herresponse you know, it's
interesting too when she saysfeel worthy, no, but this is
better, this is better, makeyourself vulnerable, because
we're gonna see in season six,he actually does make himself
(41:56):
vulnerable for rory at a latertime.
Um, so that's an interestinglike set up there that he can't.
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, just something that
hurts me.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
No, it is, it is.
And him, him telling her tolike just stop feeling guilty.
Like what's interesting iscause, when I watched these
episodes the first time, whenshe says I, you know, I don't
feel, I don't regret my choices,I choose this, I don't feel
guilty, and like, so she'sgotten over her guilt about
Dan's death, which I don't feellike she got over it,
(42:29):
specifically because she knowsit's not his, it's not Lucifer's
fault that she's dying.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I think that's actually significant.
It's not that she's just sortof come to terms with it, it's
that now she is in a different,she's in a different place
experientially.
So she has now experiencedshe's going to die and she knows
it is not Lucifer's fault.
She knows in her heart that itis not Lucifer's fault.
And then, by extension, by thetransitive property, by the
(42:54):
analogy, dan's choice, dan'sdeath was not her fault.
because, if I like dan's deathis her fault, then her death is
lucifer's fault, and she knowsit's not.
I like that, so I don't thinkit's just that she's like gotten
over it I think it's actuallythe experience of have, of
making the choice to stay in thefight and having michael kill
her and knowing that luciferlucifer's there saying it's my
(43:15):
fault, like he's, he's holding,he's cradling her as she's
bleeding.
I like that.
I actually think that that's whyAt least that's the way I read
it and that actually makes agreat deal of sense to me, oh it
does.
Yeah, that would allow her tosort of release that guilt.
She forgives herself as she'sforgiving Lucifer.
I like that a lot.
(43:37):
That's good.
Yeah, I don't always love thestorylines that give Chloe or
the dialogue or the delivery,but I actually think that Lauren
German did a good job with avery difficult task.
After the point at which sheknows and they get together, it
(43:58):
is a really difficult task toact that and do it believably,
and I actually think she risesto the occasion.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, these two episodes are really she's very
well done on her part,especially.
And there's a moment in thehospital when Trixie comes to
say to Lucifer, tell me, tell me, it's not true.
And you see her face like go,like completely ghastly, like oh
God, and then she like fallsover and like she's not even in
(44:26):
focus, like the focus is on, ison Trixie, and it's like it's
really it's really well done,yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, okay, so we've been talking for quite a while
and I want to make sure that wehave time to share if there's
any fluff.
These are not fluffy episodes.
I've got one piece and I and Ialso want to very briefly sort
of mention, sort of appreciationpost for the twinning that they
are able to do in these twoepisodes, with tom ellis playing
(44:58):
both michael and lucifer soconvincingly like I genuinely
believe they're different people, yeah, and and the way that
they said, like when they firstconfront one another in lux with
the red light and the bluelight behind them, which is
really, I thought, really cool.
I just really enjoyed that.
And even, you know, lucifercosplaying as Michael, which is
(45:22):
really fun, you know, likeFreaky Friday stuff, yeah, tom
Ellis pretending to be Lucifer,pretending to be Michael, anyway
, but there's, there wassomething really really nice
about the twinning, particularlyin these two episodes, which
I'm sure is not as complicatedto do as my brain tells me it is
(45:45):
.
But my brain is always just likehow do they do that?
It's the same actor.
He's fighting himself, anyway,I know it's actually pretty
straightforward.
It just involves Tom Ellisacting it out twice and then
post-production.
Yeah, but it works.
(46:06):
It really does.
My brain is completely full.
It's amazing, anyway, all right, let me hear your fluff.
Now I have one piece of fluff.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And that is the very final scene when, come up behind
lucifer on the steps of thecoliseum, a teeny, tiny little
bald spot right there and I haveto rewatch it.
Oh my god, I noticed it thefirst time I watched.
I was like I'm making that up,there's no way.
(46:36):
And I remember rewinding.
And no, there's definitely.
And it might just be the wayhis hair is like is swirling,
quaffed, yeah, but it's justlike.
You know it's, it's right there, there's.
It's more than just a part.
That's funny.
I'm like all right well you know, there, there, there are
(46:56):
consequences to you know,burning up in heaven.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
That's funny.
That's funny, All right.
So I have one that like.
I think diehard fans of theshow already know that Joe
Henderson is one of the inmates.
When they're demons, the head,the guy whose head gets cut off
and the head goes sort of flyingacross the street.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
That's Joe Henderson.
Oh, no, the head, the guy whosehead gets cut off and the head
goes sort of flying across thestreet.
I didn't know that joehenderson.
Oh no, kidding.
Okay, yeah, he's not in the busin the first scene.
Okay, I actually looked for him.
I didn't see him in the bus inthe first scene, but he's.
He's one of the demon inmatesin that fight scene, which is
kind of cool and also I thinkit's really fascinating.
They give the lilyim their ownlanguage right and it sounds
(47:39):
like vaguely like Dutch orsomething.
When she says brothers andsisters at my command and it's
you know, it sounds like theright, like approximately the
same number of syllables asEnglish, but then when she says
fight, it's like seven syllables, this long sentence, and then
just the word fight subtitle,which I really loved.
Like, like this long sentence,and then just the word fight
subtitle, which I really love.
(48:01):
Like and also like.
From a linguistic point of view, like doesn't make sense to me
that the Lillim would take along time to say the word fight.
I think the Lillim, it would belike it would just be a grunt,
it wouldn't actually even be aword.
Is it so fundamental, althoughmaybe there are lots and lots of
words for biting, like theproverbial Eskimo words for snow
(48:24):
or something.
I don't know Anyway.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I have actually two more real quick ones.
The first when Eve is meeting ablind date at Lux, Steve, Steve
, and I'm like I feel like thatis an intentional tweak at like
the folks who are like it's Adamand Eve, not Adam and Steve,
that's nice, I didn't I wouldnever have picked that up.
So that's the first one.
(48:49):
My last piece of fluff is uh,does Lucifer lie when he's
singing?
Can't touch this.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Oh, because he says.
He says God must be doing yeah,so except Gabriel says it first
.
Okay, Right.
Like he's singing, like they'redoing their thing and and
Gabriel's kind of dancing, andMichael gives her a look like he
gives her a side eye and she'slike must be God or must be
father or something like that.
(49:16):
I don't remember what word sheuses.
Must be God or must be fatheror something like that.
I don't remember what word sheuses.
And then Lucifer kind of glomsonto that.
But maybe you might be right,yeah, yeah, I don't know I I
I'll have to watch that sceneagain with that question in mind
.
Yeah, I mean, isn't it lyingwhen he dresses up as Michael?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Well, I mean, like he we've already talked a little
bit about how he he doesn'talways tell the whole truth and
and and all of that.
It's a good question, but Idon't know, I don't think.
I don't think of a disguise asbeing the same as a lie, but
yeah, I mean, there's definitely.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
I think even more so in the comic book which I
haven't actually read.
I just have read about, but thesort of not lying thing is very
specific.
Yeah, it's a very specificthing that he doesn't.
He totally misleads all thetime.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah I read one issue and had trouble getting into it
, in part because he very muchmisleads the human that he
interacts with to her detriment,without actually lying right,
that's a really interestingquestion.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah, I have to.
I, I really don't want to watchthis episode again, but I might
watch a couple of scenes, yeah,yeah, maybe watch that that
scene and then look for hislittle bald spot.
I have to.
I really don't want to watchthis episode again, but I might
watch a couple of scenes again.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, Maybe watch that scene and then look for his
little bald spot.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And honestly I feel like thiswhole, like this whole story arc
of God retiring and needing topick a new God, somebody in the
writer's room was like we've gotto do this so we can have Tom
Ellisis say, oh my me, somebodywas really, really, really
committed to that punch line andthat's why that's the entire
(51:07):
reason for this entire season,five story arc that's, that's my
, that's my hypothesis.
That is now headcanon for me, Imean it is a really good, it's a
great punchline, yeah, you know, when he holds this sort of oh
my, it's really good, yeah, yeah, it's really, and it and it
(51:28):
fits with the way he's talkedthroughout the series, where he
would say like, oh, my dad,swear to dad.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, unless you have something, uh, else that you absolutely
must share, I'm going to say wehave overthunk it enough for one
day.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, I think this has been quite an overthinking
session.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
All right, well, I'll see you next time when we start
season six.
Woo, next time.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(52:14):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
If you liked this episode,subscribe to keep overthinking
with them and visit the shownotes for other ways to connect.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who
really love Lucifer for the plotyeah, the plot which they
overthink.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi there.
I'm here with my sister, TracyGuy-Decker, who does use a
hyphen.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yep, and I'm here with my sister Emily Guy-Burken.
No hyphen.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And together we are Lightbringers where we
illuminate the deeper meaning ofthe Crime Solving Devil TV show
, and today we're going to beilluminating episodes 515 and
516.
Is this really how it's goingto end and a chance at a happy
ending?
In other words, the last twoepisodes of season five and yeah
boy, they're grim.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Yeah, these two are brutal and actually, before we
even get started, I have to makea correction because in our
last episode I complained alittle bit about some dialogue
that actually was not from 513and 514.
It's from 515.
So listeners who pointed it outto me, thank you for your eagle
eyes.
I really appreciate it.
You're right.
(01:11):
As I mentioned in the lastepisode, I kind of got mixed up
and watched 515 when I wassupposed to be watching 514.
Anyway, so correction made andlet's talk about these two.
We should, we try to like, staychronological.
So 515 is this really how it'sgoing to end?
(01:32):
Where we lose dan whoo?
It's a rough one.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
it's a rough one it's rough because I've seen these
before, you know I I know it'scoming and so I know now that it
was intentional.
But I remember, on the firstwatch through, while he's
playing Unstable Unicorns withTrixie, I remember thinking like
, oh yeah, we haven't reallyseen him interacting like you
(01:57):
know, just being a dad withTrixie and how much I
appreciated it and I liked itand, of course, like you know,
immediately pull the rug outfrom under you.
There's a reason why they havethat in this episode and
presumably, like this is goingon all the time.
This is just you know, you justhappen to see it in this
episode.
You know you want to believethat because of all the things
that he doesn't feel confidentabout, he knows he's a good dad
(02:21):
and the and the, the like.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
all right, I'll let you wear my glitter scarf, but
you have to wear it.
Wear it.
Yeah, it's adorable.
Yeah, you know watching itagain too, and and I watched it
again again, since I watched itfor our last, for our last
recording there were some somethings that, like I guess you're
right, there was an intentionallike we witnessed him being a
good dad, and actually I thinkthere was a moment where, right
(02:50):
before he's captured, where wewitnessed him being a good cop,
because even in the like, therewatch and the rewatch and the
rewatch, like, I was actuallylooking for what were the clues
that the woman in the house whocomes to the door like what?
What clues did he pick up on?
That it might be a possiblehome invasion, and I I didn't
(03:14):
see it.
And so I think that I thinkyou're not supposed to.
I think that's kind of thepoint is that he's a good cop.
He's got that situationalawareness, he's got that
situational awareness andsomehow like notice the sort of
the tiny things, the micro cluesthat the woman was putting off,
you know, with the gun to herhead.
(03:34):
So I think that that wasanother you know sort of setting
up for us, like reminding us ofDan, not just the goofball but
actually like competent dan,which I think was important for
in this episode.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
yeah, yeah well, and the the fact that he knew, like
he held on to say caleb to chloeand he knew the significance of
it.
I don't know that he knew whatit meant, but knew that it was
something significant and thatit needed to be shared and that
(04:11):
Chloe would figure it out andhim fighting back his competence
and going I'm so tired, I'm sotired with his head down.
So the guy comes closer to hearwhat he's saying and then he
headbutts him and I think hemanages to kill that guy so
(04:32):
tired.
Is that what he said?
I only the only reason I knowis because I had subtitles on oh
.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I thought, oh, okay, that's smart.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I thought he said you're gonna die and like the
thing is I, the first time Iwatched it I couldn't hear what
he was saying.
It was just, it sounded likewhispering, and and so it was
only because I had the subtitleson.
And you know you, you put thosetogether and you like, oh, okay
, yeah, I hear what he's saying,but he was just saying
something just to get him tocome closer.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was all like very, very impressive.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yeah, yeah, and very, very impressive, yeah, yeah.
And that's another moment whereyou get the rug pulled out from
under you with dan, because youthink he's gonna make it when
he defeats the guy who's beenassigned to kill him.
You really, for a moment, youthink he's gonna make it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, yeah, it's brutal it really is the scene in
the hospital when Trixie comesin.
Oh my gosh, I remember whenthis season came out and I
remember watching it and likejust tears and so, knowing it
(05:37):
was coming, I was thinking Iwould be okay.
But no, yeah me neither.
I was really really crying.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
There's something very powerful about the exchange
between Trixie and Lucifer, whois almost never just sincere
and heartfelt.
Yes, Certainly not with Trixie.
So the my dear sweet child likethat.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
that's when I started crying when, when Ellis
delivered those lines yeah, Ialso I want to highlight the
when they're trying to findlamech and I can't remember I
think it's before they found dan, so they don't.
They don't know if he's aliveor not, and maze like, first of
(06:24):
all maze comes in.
Who took dan?
I'm going to find them rightnow.
And then you know Lucifer'slike you know who's good at
finding criminals, othercriminals Like I've gave you
know favors.
She's like what should I callin?
And he's like all of them, yeah.
And so that makes it so clearhow important Dan is that?
(06:48):
And Amenadiel saying at thefuneral.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
He was and will always be my best friend.
I think in particular thecalling in all of the favors
helps to underscore your pointfrom several episodes ago, the
Daniel Espinoza, naked andafraid.
So my recollection of your kindof take on that on that episode
was the you know how much Danactually matters to him, that he
(07:10):
went through so much trouble todo the prank, that you know the
very elaborate prank, that hewent to so much trouble, so much
money, so much effort that thatwas kind of evidence of
Lucifer's actual regard for Dan,which to be honest I just find
unsatisfying in that episode.
And now here we are severalepisodes later and we hear him
(07:33):
saying call in all the favors,like whatever it takes to find
Dan, which I think actually doesbolster your take on what was
going on in that previousepisode about the importance of
the relationship between thesetwo men, so or man and celestial
.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So I think that validates your point from from
that episode yeah, yeah, I wasjust thinking how cavalierly he
says call them all in, becausethat's something where it's not
that he doesn't call in favors,but but they're currency.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Yeah, they are a currency for him and yeah, it's
how he operates.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
It is his you know income of a sort, and and so to
call them all in, yeah, yeah,it's a big deal, yeah so I do
have a question plot wise, whichI know just in terms of where
the story goes in season six whydidn't Maze and Lucifer kill
Lamech when they found him?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Yeah, I think that the explanation comes later,
because they kill all hishenchmen.
Yes, and then Lucifer whisperssomething to him, which we don't
know what it is, although it'sinteresting you mentioning Dan
whispering, like there's sort ofan interesting mirroring
between the two whispers.
But yeah, what?
(08:58):
Where are you going with this?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So I have read and I believe it, whether I but I'm
not sure if I'm looking for thepattern or not, but I've read
people's theories saying thatwhat Lucifer whispers into
Lamech's ears is he was myfriend and watching it this time
with that in mind.
It looked like that.
(09:20):
That was what he said.
I might be wrong.
You know, it's one of thosethings where don't we don't.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
We hear in season six .
I don't, I don't think so.
But because lamech like wantsto punish lucifer the way that
lucifer punished him like andlike, and lamex I I guess maybe
like seeing the red eyes andhearing that that might strike
(09:47):
fear, but because Lamex response, his face is sort of tortured.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So and honestly I season six is the only season
I've I have.
Just I've watched only onceyeah, me too, and I binged it
and I don't remember detailsyeah, we're gonna get there.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yeah, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get there.
So, yeah, I mean the.
The implication, even justwithin what we have here, is
that there is whatever hewhispered, you know, whatever
like satanic incantation.
The devil whispered in his earwas somehow itself punishing.
But but, yeah, I, I don't havea.
(10:30):
There's no clear answer fromwhat we've been given at this
point, yeah, at this point, yeah, so, okay, I have some
continuity, things like withinthe whole story arc which we've
talked about before.
But here they are again thefeather this isn't it's in the
second episode, but the featherRemy's feather they bring to
(10:54):
Ella, for, you know, forsleuthing.
In the first season we weregiven angel feathers as, like
themselves, miraculous andmagical.
You know, like maze uses one oflucifer's feathers that she had
kept in order to heal amenediel who's been cut badly
(11:15):
with a demon blade and she justlike presses it on him and
lights up the entire city yeah,yeah and, and here we are just
like playing with this feather,like it's an emu feather, yeah,
and like we just forgot.
We just forgot the best, whichit bothers me a little bit,
(11:41):
because I feel like they createdsome beautiful kind of rules
that now it's not even thatthey're breaking them.
I feel like they just forgotthat they exist.
So I found that a little bitbothersome.
On the other hand, you know, wehave Ella in the same series of
scenes, like right adjacent toher, thinking it's an emu
feather, talking to God andsaying like it's almost like
(12:03):
you're not up there anymore, andasking for a sign which is
immediately granted.
When Chloe walks in the doorand says you know, ella says
please, I need a sign that I'min the right place, and Chloe
immediately walks through thedoor and says Ella, thank God,
you're here.
So which Ella recognizes as thesign that it is.
So there's.
So there's sort of aninteresting kind of back and
(12:26):
forth around a question.
It's a question with mixedmessages for the answer about
what divinity is and how itinteracts with humans.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So in that second episode there's a moment where
Amenadiel and Linda are withCharlie and Linda is being a
very overprotective mom becauseCharlie, every time he stands he
falls down and Amenadiel ismore amused than anything else.
I mean, like this is how youlearn.
(12:59):
You know, this is how humanslearn they need to get up and
fall down, and getting up afterhaving fallen down is the most
empowering thing possible.
And then there is this whenthey bury Remy, there is a
similar moment where he'srecognizing that's what God, as
(13:20):
a parent, did, which is giveeveryone free will so that they
could fall down and get up again, even if it meant things like
his children would die.
And I like, on the one hand, Ifind that very beautiful, on the
other hand, I struggle with itbecause the stakes are so high.
But then again, that's true, Imean even with, with, with
(13:44):
babies.
You know, like a friend of minewas talking about recently.
She's a four-year-old who gotaway from her in the parking lot
and and went tearing off andshe was very lucky that there
was a like a car stopped in timeand and all of that scared her
to death and so like thatdoesn't mean she shouldn't have
talked a lot.
You know, not that you teach,but you know what I mean.
So I mean, the stakes are thathigh.
(14:08):
It just whew, it feels sopotentially ugly.
You know that he created, youknow, just looking at the angels
and like Michael is so cravenand needing of power.
But that's his choice, likehe's choosing to be that way.
(14:29):
He could be another way and Idon't know.
It gets into some deep stuffand is the reason why I like the
show, even when I am lesssatisfied with this era of the
show than I am with the firstfour seasons.
I'd say In part because I feellike you talk about dramatic
irony quite a bit, and when theviewers in Lucifer are the only
(14:52):
ones who know that he's actuallythe devil, well, lucifer and
the Celestials, there'ssomething more satisfying about
that than when everyone's in onit.
But bringing up these questionsof like in on it but you know,
bringing up these questions oflike is it's more loving to
allow your children to be whothey are, even if it leads to
(15:13):
disaster, than to impose yourwill on them.
And like, well, you put it thatway, yes, but oh, my goodness,
like.
But couldn't there beguardrails?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, um, let's talk about,
let's actually talk aboutmichael.
You just brought him up, um,and how craven he is.
It's really interesting michael, in these two episodes, because
he is like, he's just kind ofawful, you know, like lucifer is
unable to bring himself to killt the fence, and then Michael
(15:45):
does it without even thinking hekills their sister Remy.
He's just kind of awful, hekills Chloe, and then we have a
moment where he seems to notexactly regret it, but there
does seem to be some sympathythat he's having for Lucifer in
that moment, seem to be somesympathy that he's having for
(16:05):
lucifer in that moment hedoesn't attack lucifer while
lucifer is mourning, which issort of what the craven guy that
we've been seeing would havedone.
Yeah, instead he's sort of likeyou should have taken the deal,
because now you'll never see heragain, and there does seem to
be some genuine it's not remorsebut but sympathy for the devil.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
To coin a phrase.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
And then when she wakes up after he gives her the
ring and chooses her in heavenand he says I can't believe he
did it, I can't believe hebrought you back Only for me to
kill you again.
And it's like I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
I have a theory.
I'd love to hear it.
So my theory is that Michael isLucifer's shadow, he is his
other half and so, seeing histwin having that kind of anguish
, he feels something for histwin that he can't feel even for
(17:06):
his brothers and sisters.
But he very clearly has noregard for humans and he doesn't
actually care about chloe.
And now that I can't believe hedid it, he believes lucifer's
destroyed right so why?
there's no reason.
So why?
Why let her live?
So that would be my, my take onthat.
(17:29):
And there is something likelike it feels like everything he
does is in reaction to lucifer.
No, we're not twins.
I'm the younger sibling and Ifeel, I feel the the like
comparison's not the right word,because people didn't like this
was not anything you ever did.
Uh, this was more just theexpectations of like family and
(17:49):
society and stuff like that.
The best example of this isneither of us had a bat mitzvah
when we were 13.
You decided in your 20s thatyou wanted to have a bat mitzvah
, so you were a bat mitzvahed asan adult.
The whole family came.
It was lovely and at thereception, every single member
(18:10):
of our extended family turned tome and said so when are you
going to do it?
And never Now.
I can't Thank you.
You've made it impossible.
So and like I know that thatlike, as it was happening, I
knew it was irrational, but atthe same time, like I did not
(18:31):
want my choices to be comparedto your choices and my choices
to look like you know, trailingafter, like hey, wait for me.
And so I can comprehendsomewhat what Michael is doing
and his willingness to sacrificeso much, in part because he is
(18:52):
very specifically settinghimself separate from his
brother.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I hear that.
All right, I want to talk abouthell and the throne.
This is another one that, likeyou pointed out, when Lilith
dies and then we're told thathell doesn't need a keeper, like
you were anticipating thatbecause Lilith was going to rule
over her children down there.
Anticipating that becauseLilith was going to rule over
her children down there, and Ithink that would have been
beautiful, and instead it's justthis sort of like I mean, you
(19:24):
can rule if you want to, right,like even talking about Maze
going to be the queen, the Mazzaqueen.
It's just, it feels like amissed opportunity for a much
neater, a much neater narrativeelement.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Well, and it could have been really interesting,
also with the fact that Mazewould have known she'd have to
depose her own mother, and thatcould have been really juicy
interesting stuff, consideringhow complicated their
relationship is.
Yeah, and so would she beexcited to depose her own mother
, I mean like she'd claim to be,but would she then like
(20:03):
hesitate, and I mean there'd beso much, there'd be so much that
I think would be, it would havebeen very rich.
But instead it's this like handwave, like god said.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
it's okay um yeah, yeah, but then there's still
hand wave, Like God said, it'sokay.
Um, yeah, yeah, but thenthere's still there's still talk
about who's going to rule.
It's just it.
Obviously it didn't interestthe writer's room that much
because they just let it, let itlie, yeah, but I think it could
.
It could have been really,really interesting and it it.
It bothers me a little that wedidn't have more structure
(20:34):
around the question.
So that's just something thatlike comes up for me when you
know, when maze is dressed as abony xylophone.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, okay, speaking of hell,let's let's talk about heaven.
I had forgotten that, mr Soda.
I it's not that I'd forgotten,I just didn't remember where in
these episodes it happened.
And so when I saw JeremiahBurkett's name, I was very
excited.
So we learned that he hasfigured out a way out of hell to
(21:08):
get to heaven.
He's the first soul to ever dothat, and it's because he took
Lucifer's advice.
And just for one thing, a partof me is just teary-eyed at the
idea that Lee not only getspeace, he gets paradise.
He had suffered so much oversomething that he didn't need to
(21:32):
because his sister adored him.
He didn't need to because his,his sister adored him, even as
she despaired over him.
I'm actually I'm gettingteary-eyed about this fictional
character.
And then the fact that herecognizes lucifer's part in
that and is like I want to helpyou because you helped me, and
(21:54):
like is just, but he's stillhimself like, he's like.
So says the guy who just fellout of the sky.
You know, there's still leethere, he's still got that right
sense of humor, he's still.
And then the moment that had melike squealing with excitement,
when this first air, or when Ifirst watched.
(22:15):
It was when Lee says I don'tknow what the fork is happening,
because that is very clearlyreferenced to the good place,
the show with Ted Danson andKristen Bell, which we both also
love.
Yeah, and I had for a long timefelt like these shows were in
conversation with each other,because they both have a similar
(22:38):
view of what makes somethinghell.
It's, you know, you aretorturing yourself and it's
because of it's not explicitlyguilt in a good place, but it is
more that it's human nature andso for.
(22:59):
For the showrunners, thewriters because it's joan ildy
who wrote that episode to makeit clear that they also
appreciate the good place andthey also see it as grappling
with these kind of big issuesand big questions was just
really exciting.
I really was.
Was was excited to see that andit feels like, because it's a
(23:19):
different show, heaven inLucifer is actually heaven,
whereas we found out in the GoodPlace it's still imperfect, the
system still is not quite right.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, yeah, you know, thinking about hell and like
how people are tortured.
One of the things that I'm sortof trying to wrap my mind
around is the fact.
I mean, we know that souls aretortured by their guilt, the
demons make it happen, but whenwe have been in hell before, the
(23:51):
hell loops we've seen havemainly been people's sort of
death, right like what has ledto their death, although maze
tells us, I think, in theepisode before that, these two,
that she knows now that she hasa soul, when she dies it'll go
to hell and her, her siblingswill torture her with that
hospital room where she walkedaway from eve.
I'm just thinking about likethe lack of alignment there and
(24:17):
even with right, like even withlee.
Lee was reliving the day of hisdeath on the boat, on the
fascism boat, you know, in hishell loop, but what he was
actually guilty, feeling guiltyabout, was that not going into
his sister's data shower.
So, like I'm, and like they'vemade it clear, they've said that
(24:39):
the souls are not, most of thedoors are not even locked and
that the souls could leave atany time.
We have discussed, I think evenon the show, the fact that we
do see some locked in our head.
Canon from you I'm pretty sureis that those are the torture
cells of psychopaths andsociopaths who don't feel guilt,
yeah, but still still belong inhell.
(25:00):
So they actually do have chainsand locks, but for the average
human, their guilt keeps them soand and yet it's a death based
loop.
That may or may not haveanything to do with which we'll
see actually in season six withwhen we hear from Dan about
Dan's experience.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So, specifically for Lee, I wonder if his hell loop
is in part like about even onthat.
Like that, his things are goinggreat, he has a yacht,
everything's wonderful.
There's still a big part ofthem, him, that feels guilty
that he doesn't are going great.
He has a yacht, everything'swonderful.
There's still a big part of himthat feels guilty that he
doesn't have a sister, that hewalked away from her, and so the
(25:43):
hell loop is not the specificday because he dissociates from
that, like he can't even likelook at it.
His hell loop is when he's ontop of the world.
It's still not enough and heimmediately dies that's nice.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
That's nice.
How does he get back to thedoor?
That was the one that he neededto go through?
Well, how does he?
How does he break out of thatdeath?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
well, once I think once he's been with lucifer and
been through like they weretrying to solve his murder.
Um, like he can move he canmove.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
He can move a little more freely?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
um, because he has a?
Um, and I was under theimpression although I don't
remember what he says, but thathe might have just like sat in
front of that door for howeverlong it took before he could
walk in.
So he might not have even goneback to other aspects, other
places in hell.
He might have just sat thereand sat there and sat there and
finally said he's right, I needto go in, yeah, yeah, maybe and,
(26:47):
like you know, the demonswouldn't have kept an eye on him
or anything like that Cause,like no one ever leaves Right,
so why do we need to wait?
He'll come back to his regularhell loop eventually, okay,
maybe.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
So it was also interesting that lee tells
lucifer like, yeah, this isheaven, um, or at least one of
its rooms.
I'm still getting the lay ofthe land.
So that was useful, that wasuseful exposition.
And also I was like, how doesdoes Lee know that Chloe's here?
Because Lucifer says I need toget to the detective and Lee
(27:22):
says, yeah, she's here, he knowsexactly where she is.
And like, does every residentof heaven know where every other
resident is?
That's a lot of people.
That's a lot of peoplePresumably Well, we don't know.
Well, according to the GoodPlace, it's actually not that
many anyway, those were a coupleof the things that were like
while I was watching.
I was like, okay, so devil goesto heaven, don't overthink it.
(27:45):
I, I, it makes sense, don'toverthink it.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I I'm happy to hand wave that.
The thing that got me was whenMichael says, oh, you're going
to go up to heaven andimmediately burn up because
you've been banished.
And he was like okay, this isthe first we've heard of it.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Well, he does say he can't go back.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Oh many times.
And it's just like what kepthim out was never explained to
be something physical that wouldhappen to him.
But even that I'll give it'sjust there's.
The seams are showing a littlebit more.
Yeah, that's part of why I'mnot as satisfied by these
(28:30):
seasons, even though I foundmyself so.
I really appreciated thatmetaphor about like parents
allowing their children to failUh-huh, and I also really
appreciated Lucifer'sconversation with Linda where
he's like the system is broken,it's unjust and it's interesting
(28:53):
because he's talking about life, but I can't help but feel like
he's also talking aboutcriminal justice system.
He uses the word system andunjust.
I recently saw there's aYouTuber I like he's an
ex-evangelical and so he talksabout the ways that evangelical
(29:18):
culture affects the culture as awhole and one of the things he
talked about recently was theappearance of Satan imagery and
he was talking about the showLucifer.
He's like I have friends whoreally love it, but I just could
not get over the fantasy ofcops being good and I actually I
have had that.
(29:39):
We've talked before about howthis show is, copaganda and our
very mixed feelings about it.
A story I read recently aboutthe LAPD and I can't even
remember what horror it wasbecause there have been so many
made me feel like, oh mygoodness, this is so.
There's this disconnect betweenthe show that I adore that
(30:02):
makes it clear that cops are thegood guys and reality, and it
was funny, but also true, thatthis YouTuber is saying like,
yeah, the fantastical element Ican't swallow is the idea that
cops are good, not that, youknow, the devil walks among us
(30:23):
and falls in love, yeah, and soI feel like this does kind of
set things up for for what wesee in season six, and and and
it's also interesting thinkingabout Amenadiel deciding to
become a police officer, which Idon't know.
(30:43):
It feels like an odd decision,even though it leads to some
really, really interestingconversational stuff, like in
conversation with the lack ofjustice, in human justice that
we we will get to in season six.
But it's, it's, it's morepropaganda in some ways, and
(31:04):
that's, it's just it's, it's,it's painful.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, it's deeply troubling.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah.
But it also makes me so, takingLucifer's rant at face value,
that he is going to create aworld without pain, and it is
admirable and understandable whyhe's saying that.
But Linda's absolutely rightyou cannot have joy without pain
(31:34):
, right joy without pain.
And trying to create a justsystem from the top down seems
like a recipe for fascism.
A just system has to come fromthe bottom up, I think, and
without trying to control forthings being painful.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
It's an interesting juxtaposition too, because I
think the presence of justicedoes not require the complete
absence of pain.
I think, yeah Right, itrequires the appropriate
responses to pain, it requiresnot causing pain
disproportionately to peoplebecause of their identity, you
(32:22):
know like but but justice is notthe absence of pain.
Yeah, presumably there will beless pain in a more just world,
but not no pain, yeah, so that'sa sort of an interesting
conversation there that you'renoticing, because he, he is at
face value talking about life,but he does use the word justice
(32:43):
, that or you know there's nojustice or it's not just, or
something like that.
So, yeah, that's an interestingand you know, linda's response
is actually not about justice,it's about pain.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
yeah, yeah, and suffering, and it does in some
ways feel like Lucifer has asense of justice.
Well, so at the end of the lastepisode, because Michael has
said it's to the death andLucifer agrees, and had Michael
won, he would have killed hisbrother.
(33:15):
Had Michael won, he would havekilled his brother.
But Lucifer, by cutting off hiswings, he meets out a
consequence, but it's a justconsequence, it's not an over.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I mean, I don't know, I don't know if it's just or
not.
It's not death, it's not death.
Yeah, you know, that sceneactually is really interesting
because michael meals, likeearlier, michael had the flaming
sword and blister punched himin the face.
So, like the possession of thesword is not enough to for the
(33:51):
other to be required tosurrender, I guess you know the
shock of having him come backfrom the incineration, of going
back to heaven.
I don't know, I actually foundthat a curious moment.
Yeah, that Michael surrenderedbasically.
Yeah, it was also curious whenand here's another like they
(34:12):
forgot the rules, so when, ormaybe they didn't, but when
Chloe has Michael on the groundand she's got Azrael's blade
through his throat, he says doit, which I don't actually think
that Michael would say, that Ithink he would try to weasel his
way out of it and he would tryto figure out what she was
(34:33):
afraid of and use it andweaponize it.
Afraid of, and and and use itand weaponize it.
And in earlier episodes, whenwe, when we first met the blade
welcome to stabby town.
Like when humans held it, theywent crazy.
They were unable to controltheir violent impulses when they
held the sword.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
So, but, dan, was able to to fight it off.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
Yes, you stole my pudding, it was labeled,
although it was hard for him,though, yeah it was hard for him
and his.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
His grievance with lucifer was much smaller than
chloe's grievance with michaelyeah, now chloe also was holding
the peace, that's true.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
she's also got the strength, yeah, so maybe that's
an explanation.
Also, she's a special humansince she was created by divine
decree.
Um, you know, so I can, I thereare ways in which I can sort of
offer explanations for that,but it did feel like a bit of a
like I wish they'd said but Iguess we didn't really have time
I would have liked an officialexplanation.
(35:36):
Like you had the strength tofight the swords you know pull
because you were holding thepiece.
I don't know, I don't know, butI would have liked an official
explanation of why Chloe wasable to, you know, to fight the
impulse.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, Um, you know I.
As for why Michael Neal's?
I think it's his realizationthat he doesn't have anything
other than the sword.
Like without the sword, hedoesn't have anything to fight
with, I guess.
Or well, he doesn't haveanything to fight for.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
You know, I guess I don't know he has all the.
I mean, that's the thing too,like they kept talking about the
swing votes, but I meanpresumably we the thing too,
like they kept talking about theswing votes, but I mean
presumably we thought peoplewould come with them, even if
he'd gotten all three of them orall four of them, like the
whole all of the siblings werebehind Michael.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Some of that has to do with they filmed during COVID
, and so I think if this had notbeen filmed in 2020, or maybe
it was 2021, I think we wouldhave had a much larger group,
and that's also why I think itwas in the.
They filmed it in the stadium.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
It was a Coliseum.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, because if they like, if they filmed that many
people in a room, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
So, but even of the people that we had, there was
Tzadkiel.
That was it, and then the oneunnamed sister, so we had met a
couple of them that he wastrying to lobby, like the one
who, like the Iron Chef,tzadkiel yeah, sarah, he called
(37:25):
her and then dophiel, who thebro, and sad kale.
There were the only three.
Oh yeah, there were the onlythree swing votes, so-called
swing votes.
I mean, are we to presume thatother siblings would come if
they, those three, had beenconvinced but they didn't?
For tzadkiel, I would havethought the angel of
righteousness would have, yeah,a few folks being like, oh well,
(37:46):
if tzadkiel thinks that luciferis the right one, um, like, I
don't know, I I wish I'd seen alittle bit more.
It was funny.
It was funny when lucifer, whensad kiel, makes this big thing
and like one person comes overand then lucifer's like, oh, uh,
oh, I thought that was gonna bea whole thing.
Yeah, um, like that was funny,but I do sort of wish I'd seen a
little bit more.
(38:07):
I don't know, like strugglingwith it on the faces of the
siblings or something.
Yeah to, because how, how, howwas, how was this?
How was there ever a path tothe throne for lucifer.
If those were the only threepossible, yeah ones he could
change.
And there were the 25, orhowever many there were, I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's confusing to me well, I wonder if, like some of
it is like that's not all theangels, they're not all there.
So there are other people whooh, you think they weren't.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
they weren't supposed to all be there.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Yeah, no, no, no, that's definitely not all the
angels, oh, okay, well, becauseI mean Azrael wasn't there, so I
mean there's.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Well, yeah, so maybe presumably others who have jobs
that they can't take a breakfrom.
Yeah, besides Azrael.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
And they would have been swayed by.
But then, like, why aren't theythere?
I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
Yeah, this is one of those ones that, like the reason
that they suggested it makessense and don't overthink it.
This is one of those ones that,on a little bit of scratching,
you're like wait a minute, thiswhole storyline doesn't actually
work.
Yeah, yeah, so we've beentalking for a while.
Let's talk about the almost fanservice of the moment of I
(39:22):
choose you and then his, hedisintegrates.
Let's talk about that for amoment.
Yeah, so he has told us that he, he's told Chloe, and thereby
us, that he believes he isincapable of love.
It's just not in his makeup tolove, and he's been telling Todd
(39:44):
Kiel and others that love isthe reason that he wants to be
God.
So there's like that's sort ofan interesting thing that, like
he knows he loves her but healso thinks he's incapable of
love.
And then, facing his ownerasure, it's, it's death, but
it's different, you know, ashe's like incinerating.
(40:05):
They play it like it's painful.
That's when he's able toactually tell her, which is for
the fans, like finally, he saidit.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You know, I do have to say that kind of mirrors the,
the, the moment when he tellschloe that the reason why he
wants to be god is so he can beworthy of her, and her reaction
feels appropriate oh, my god,yeah, um, like, are you kidding
(40:37):
me?
Yeah, yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Oh for F sake, yeah, it's like yeah, um, yeah.
And then you're telling me.
You're telling me that Dan isdead, because you still don't
know how I feel about you.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, I thought that was well-written and
well-delivered.
I believed it.
Yeah, I believed it.
Love her is, I think, what thatreally is.
But I also am imagining ifsomeone were like well, I'm
taking this major job that'sgoing to change everything about
our lives, because otherwisethere's no way that I would feel
(41:30):
worthy of you.
I'd be like don't put that onme.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
Yeah, right, so that's the other aspect of it,
although I mean, if he had toldher before dan died, that
probably would have been herresponse you know, it's
interesting too when she saysfeel worthy, no, but this is
better, this is better, makeyourself vulnerable, because
we're gonna see in season six,he actually does make himself
(41:56):
vulnerable for rory at a latertime.
Um, so that's an interestinglike set up there that he can't.
I don't know where I'm goingwith that, just something that
hurts me.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
No, it is, it is.
And him, him telling her tolike just stop feeling guilty.
Like what's interesting iscause, when I watched these
episodes the first time, whenshe says I, you know, I don't
feel, I don't regret my choices,I choose this, I don't feel
guilty, and like, so she'sgotten over her guilt about
Dan's death, which I don't feellike she got over it,
(42:29):
specifically because she knowsit's not his, it's not Lucifer's
fault that she's dying.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
I think that's actually significant.
It's not that she's just sortof come to terms with it, it's
that now she is in a different,she's in a different place
experientially.
So she has now experiencedshe's going to die and she knows
it is not Lucifer's fault.
She knows in her heart that itis not Lucifer's fault.
And then, by extension, by thetransitive property, by the
(42:54):
analogy, dan's choice, dan'sdeath was not her fault.
because, if I like dan's deathis her fault, then her death is
lucifer's fault, and she knowsit's not.
I like that, so I don't thinkit's just that she's like gotten
over it I think it's actuallythe experience of have, of
making the choice to stay in thefight and having michael kill
her and knowing that luciferlucifer's there saying it's my
(43:15):
fault, like he's, he's holding,he's cradling her as she's
bleeding.
I like that.
I actually think that that's whyAt least that's the way I read
it and that actually makes agreat deal of sense to me, oh it
does.
Yeah, that would allow her tosort of release that guilt.
She forgives herself as she'sforgiving Lucifer.
I like that a lot.
(43:37):
That's good.
Yeah, I don't always love thestorylines that give Chloe or
the dialogue or the delivery,but I actually think that Lauren
German did a good job with avery difficult task.
After the point at which sheknows and they get together, it
(43:58):
is a really difficult task toact that and do it believably,
and I actually think she risesto the occasion.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Yeah, these two episodes are really she's very
well done on her part,especially.
And there's a moment in thehospital when Trixie comes to
say to Lucifer, tell me, tell me, it's not true.
And you see her face like go,like completely ghastly, like oh
God, and then she like fallsover and like she's not even in
(44:26):
focus, like the focus is on, ison Trixie, and it's like it's
really it's really well done,yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
Yeah, okay, so we've been talking for quite a while
and I want to make sure that wehave time to share if there's
any fluff.
These are not fluffy episodes.
I've got one piece and I and Ialso want to very briefly sort
of mention, sort of appreciationpost for the twinning that they
are able to do in these twoepisodes, with tom ellis playing
(44:58):
both michael and lucifer soconvincingly like I genuinely
believe they're different people, yeah, and and the way that
they said, like when they firstconfront one another in lux with
the red light and the bluelight behind them, which is
really, I thought, really cool.
I just really enjoyed that.
And even, you know, lucifercosplaying as Michael, which is
(45:22):
really fun, you know, likeFreaky Friday stuff, yeah, tom
Ellis pretending to be Lucifer,pretending to be Michael, anyway
, but there's, there wassomething really really nice
about the twinning, particularlyin these two episodes, which
I'm sure is not as complicatedto do as my brain tells me it is
(45:45):
.
But my brain is always just likehow do they do that?
It's the same actor.
He's fighting himself, anyway,I know it's actually pretty
straightforward.
It just involves Tom Ellisacting it out twice and then
post-production.
Yeah, but it works.
(46:06):
It really does.
My brain is completely full.
It's amazing, anyway, all right, let me hear your fluff.
Now I have one piece of fluff.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
And that is the very final scene when, come up behind
lucifer on the steps of thecoliseum, a teeny, tiny little
bald spot right there and I haveto rewatch it.
Oh my god, I noticed it thefirst time I watched.
I was like I'm making that up,there's no way.
(46:36):
And I remember rewinding.
And no, there's definitely.
And it might just be the wayhis hair is like is swirling,
quaffed, yeah, but it's justlike.
You know it's, it's right there, there's.
It's more than just a part.
That's funny.
I'm like all right well you know, there, there, there are
(46:56):
consequences to you know,burning up in heaven.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
That's funny.
That's funny, All right.
So I have one that like.
I think diehard fans of theshow already know that Joe
Henderson is one of the inmates.
When they're demons, the head,the guy whose head gets cut off
and the head goes sort of flyingacross the street.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
That's Joe Henderson.
Oh, no, the head, the guy whosehead gets cut off and the head
goes sort of flying across thestreet.
I didn't know that joehenderson.
Oh no, kidding.
Okay, yeah, he's not in the busin the first scene.
Okay, I actually looked for him.
I didn't see him in the bus inthe first scene, but he's.
He's one of the demon inmatesin that fight scene, which is
kind of cool and also I thinkit's really fascinating.
They give the lilyim their ownlanguage right and it sounds
(47:39):
like vaguely like Dutch orsomething.
When she says brothers andsisters at my command and it's
you know, it sounds like theright, like approximately the
same number of syllables asEnglish, but then when she says
fight, it's like seven syllables, this long sentence, and then
just the word fight subtitle,which I really loved.
Like, like this long sentence,and then just the word fight
subtitle, which I really love.
(48:01):
Like and also like.
From a linguistic point of view, like doesn't make sense to me
that the Lillim would take along time to say the word fight.
I think the Lillim, it would belike it would just be a grunt,
it wouldn't actually even be aword.
Is it so fundamental, althoughmaybe there are lots and lots of
words for biting, like theproverbial Eskimo words for snow
(48:24):
or something.
I don't know Anyway.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
I have actually two more real quick ones.
The first when Eve is meeting ablind date at Lux, Steve, Steve
, and I'm like I feel like thatis an intentional tweak at like
the folks who are like it's Adamand Eve, not Adam and Steve,
that's nice, I didn't I wouldnever have picked that up.
So that's the first one.
(48:49):
My last piece of fluff is uh,does Lucifer lie when he's
singing?
Can't touch this.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
Oh, because he says.
He says God must be doing yeah,so except Gabriel says it first
.
Okay, Right.
Like he's singing, like they'redoing their thing and and
Gabriel's kind of dancing, andMichael gives her a look like he
gives her a side eye and she'slike must be God or must be
father or something like that.
(49:16):
I don't remember what word sheuses.
Must be God or must be fatheror something like that.
I don't remember what word sheuses.
And then Lucifer kind of glomsonto that.
But maybe you might be right,yeah, yeah, I don't know I I
I'll have to watch that sceneagain with that question in mind
.
Yeah, I mean, isn't it lyingwhen he dresses up as Michael?
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Well, I mean, like he we've already talked a little
bit about how he he doesn'talways tell the whole truth and
and and all of that.
It's a good question, but Idon't know, I don't think.
I don't think of a disguise asbeing the same as a lie, but
yeah, I mean, there's definitely.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
I think even more so in the comic book which I
haven't actually read.
I just have read about, but thesort of not lying thing is very
specific.
Yeah, it's a very specificthing that he doesn't.
He totally misleads all thetime.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah I read one issue and had trouble getting into it
, in part because he very muchmisleads the human that he
interacts with to her detriment,without actually lying right,
that's a really interestingquestion.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Yeah, I have to.
I, I really don't want to watchthis episode again, but I might
watch a couple of scenes, yeah,yeah, maybe watch that that
scene and then look for hislittle bald spot.
I have to.
I really don't want to watchthis episode again, but I might
watch a couple of scenes again.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yeah, Maybe watch that scene and then look for his
little bald spot.
Speaker 3 (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And honestly I feel like thiswhole, like this whole story arc
of God retiring and needing topick a new God, somebody in the
writer's room was like we've gotto do this so we can have Tom
Ellisis say, oh my me, somebodywas really, really, really
committed to that punch line andthat's why that's the entire
(51:07):
reason for this entire season,five story arc that's, that's my
, that's my hypothesis.
That is now headcanon for me, Imean it is a really good, it's a
great punchline, yeah, you know, when he holds this sort of oh
my, it's really good, yeah, yeah, it's really, and it and it
(51:28):
fits with the way he's talkedthroughout the series, where he
would say like, oh, my dad,swear to dad.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, unless you have something, uh, else that you absolutely
must share, I'm going to say wehave overthunk it enough for one
day.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah, I think this has been quite an overthinking
session.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
All right, well, I'll see you next time when we start
season six.
Woo, next time.
Speaker 1 (51:51):
Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin
MacLeod from Incompetechcom,licensed under Creative Commons
by Attribution 4.0 License.
Visit the show notes for theURL.
I am an artificially generatedvoice powered by Narrakeepcom.
Lucifer is a Warner Brothersproduction that first aired on
(52:14):
Fox and then Netflix.
Tracy and Emily are notaffiliated with Fox, netflix nor
WB.
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