August 30, 2023 • 48 mins
Imagine being trapped in an identity that isn't your own, a child grappling with gender confusion, or an adolescent considering transition. This is the reality for many people today, and it's a struggle Kathy Grace Duncan, who once identified as a male, is intimately familiar with. This episode dives into Kathy's journey, from living as a man to rediscovering her identity as a woman, exploring the complexities of gender confusion and the transformation inspired by her encounter with the Holy Spirit.
In this conversation host Helen Todd and Kathy Grace Duncan discuss how the gender issues begin in early adulthood, the impact medical procedures to change gender could have on a person’s life, and the effective ways for the church to reach the people struggling with gender identity and sexual orientation.
At the end, they spotlight the Portland Fellowship program, a faith-based transitional program dedicated to those wrestling with their gender identity or sexuality. Kathy shares the significance of her five-year journey and how surrendering to God played a pivotal role in her transformation.
To connect with the program or with Kathy Grace Duncan, follow the links below:
https://www.portlandfellowship.com/
kathygrace@changedmovement.com
Thanks for listening! Visit our website rfwma.org and follow us on Facebook :https://www.facebook.com/limitlessspiritpodcast/
and Instagram: @limitlessspiritpodcast
Help us make more inspiring episodes: https://rfwma.org/give-support-the-podcast/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to
bridge a gap between who you aretoday and who you are destined
to be?
What if, each week, you couldhear a story of someone who has
tried and succeeded, or perhapstried and failed but learned
something in the process?
Limitless Spirit is a weeklypodcast where host Helen Todd
interviews guests about topicsand personal stories on defining
(00:23):
life's purpose, pursuingpersonal growth and developing a
deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Limitless
Spirit podcast.
After having been gone foralmost a month on a mission to
the southmost tip of Argentina,I was excited to do this
interview on a topic that hasbeen on my mind lately, and the
topic is how should the Churchreach effectively the
(00:51):
transgender and homosexualcommunities with love and
compassion, but also withoutcompromising Christian beliefs
and convictions?
I could not have found a betterperson for this conversation
than Kathy Grace Duncan, wholonged to be a boy since
childhood, underwent hormonetreatments and lived as Keith
(01:13):
for many years until sheencountered God, confronted her
brokenness and discovered hertrue identity.
Her story is especiallyrelevant because she came to
church as Keith and for sometime, the congregation was not
aware of her secret.
Whether you have a person inyour life who struggles with
(01:33):
gender identity or sexuality orperhaps this is you, your own
struggle I encourage you tolisten to this conversation to
the very end.
This is a story of courage,hope and Christ's boundless love
that helps us uncover who wereally are in him.
(01:54):
Hello, kathy Grace, welcome tothe Limitless Spirit Podcast.
How are you today?
I'm good, thank you.
Where are you located right now?
Are you in Portland, oregon?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
That's correct.
Hometown Portland Oregon.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Awesome, awesome.
Well, let's jump into yourstory first.
I was very excited when I foundyour story and it addresses the
issues that we want to touch on.
I will be honest, what inspiredthis whole interview was when I
watched the movie JesusRevolution.
(02:29):
That is really a wonderfulmovie and it was very inspiring
and I was reminded of how theheroes of this movie really
captured the struggle of theirgeneration, which made me think
what is the struggle of ourgeneration?
And that brought to my mindthat probably the hippies of the
(02:53):
70s to who are the people thatwould be comparable to the
hippie movement of the 70s wouldbe the people who struggle with
gender confusion or sexualorientation today, and it made
me think that the church todayis really not doing enough or
(03:14):
maybe is not equipped to meetthe need of this generation.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Well, I think the church is about 40 years behind
and I think it started, as youknow, back in the day.
It's like we don't know what todo and they're sinners, so
let's reject them, you know,let's tell them you're not
welcome here.
And then they began to realize,well, that's not the approach,
so let's just love them.
(03:41):
So then, in just loving them,they became over-affirming,
which they allowed the gayidentity, trans identity into
the church and didn't requirechange.
And Jesus being Jesus, he'slike yes, I love you no matter
what, but I love you too much toleave you here, and that was
(04:01):
true in my own life.
You know he was like you'reliving as a man, but I want you
to be who I created you to be,and I think the church needs to
come alongside those people, forsure, without compromising the
truth.
One of the things that I neededfrom the church is I needed a
place that was safe, where Icould go and I could just be and
figure stuff out.
(04:22):
Now, yes, I needed people tocome around me and I needed
truth, but the most importantthing was that, even though you
looked at the outside that wasscreaming, you know truth.
I need truth because I'm livingin this deception.
My heart was screaming, I needhelp.
And so it's coming alongside,loving them first and allowing
(04:44):
them to open their heart and sayokay, now I'm ready for you to
speak truth, because what I'vewatched is we approach them with
well, you're kind of a leper,but I'm not going to allow you
to stay in this leper state, soI'm going to give you truth.
And they're like no, no, no, no, no, no.
I want to know that you careabout me, I want to know that
I'm loved, and that's you know.
(05:06):
That's how friendships start,is we come to a common ground,
we get to know each other andthen if that person says to you
I think I want to be your friend, then they begin to open their
heart and you get thatopportunity to speak truth into
those places that are that needtruth.
So it's about relationship andthat's how Jesus approaches.
(05:27):
Everything is aboutrelationship.
So if I don't have relationshipwith them, I can't speak truth.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
This is interesting and it kind of addresses the
conversation that I had with myfriends, who were very
well-meaning individuals, andthis was a conversation where we
were trying to figure out howwould we, what would be the
right and proper way to reachout, and hopefully our
conversation towards the end isgoing to answer these questions.
(05:54):
But before we get there, I wantto talk about you personally.
So how did your journey begin?
Or, a better question, I guess,where did your struggle begin?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Sure, mine started way before kindergarten.
So, like the ages of three andfour, I began to struggle with
wanting to be a boy.
I believed I was born into thewrong body and I felt that I
should have been a boy.
So I struggled continually.
I would ride my tricycle overto my girlfriend's house to pick
her up before we were going toget married, and this was way
(06:29):
before kindergarten, andkindergarten here starts at like
five.
But yet I knew that that wasn'tnormal.
So I kept it a secret and Iknew my parents wouldn't agree.
How I knew that, I don't know.
It was just, you know,intuition, I guess maybe what do
you think was the cause of that?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Because I mean, I guess there is a debate whether
it's a psychological conditionor a biological condition.
But looking back, what do youthink?
Was there some outwardinfluences that made you feel
that way, or you literally don'thave an explanation for that?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Well, I don't believe that you're born that way.
I believe you know they saynature versus nurture and I tend
to lean on the nurture side.
And the reason I do is becausemy home life was dysfunctional.
You know, I watched my dad beverbally and emotionally abusive
to my mom and I watched my mombeing a victim.
Now, at that young age, at thattender age, you know my mom is
(07:29):
supposed to be my role model andI'm looking at that going.
I don't want to be a victim andI don't want to succumb to this
abuse.
But since I feel like I'm a manI don't want to be that man
that I see my dad.
So I made this vow at a veryearly age that I'm going to be
the man my dad is not, and Ialso took away three lies.
(07:51):
You know that women are weak,women are hated and women are
vulnerable and I don't want togrow up and be that either.
So you know, and if you look atit, from ages zero to five, the
child is pretty much in thehome, you know, the whole time.
So they're surrounded by thisatmosphere and, yeah, there's
parents who love.
But there's something withinthe child there's a perception
(08:13):
like I had a perception thatit's not safe to be a woman.
You know, if I grow up and I'mgoing to be hated, you know I'm
going to be taken advantage of.
You know I'm going to be weakand I don't want to be that.
So it's better to be a man.
You see the opposite sex asbeing better and safer, and so
that's why I believe that's whatdrove me to want to be a man.
(08:36):
And at you know, between theages of 10 and 12, I was
molested by a family member, andso that really cemented in
those three lies that women areweak, hated and vulnerable.
Because if those weren't true,then why is this happening to me
?
And I also had a little brothercome along that was adored by
my dad, which told me that againto be you know.
(08:58):
You know I have the affirmationthat I need to be a boy because
, see, my dad now adores mybrother and he kind of doesn't
pay any attention to me, and itmust be because I'm a girl.
So all these lies are in there,you know, creating a belief
system, and from there I'macting out on this belief system
.
This is in order for me to besafe and to be lovable, to have
(09:21):
value.
I have to be a boy because allthese other things are telling
me it's bad to be a girl.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So would you say that for the parents of a child who
is struggling with gender issues, that puts an enormous
responsibility on them, andsometimes maybe it's not within
the household that the situationhappens.
Do you think that parents whonotice these tendencies in their
(09:47):
child they need to investigatedeeper whether there was a
traumatic event in their child'slife or you know something that
they're not aware of that iscausing that?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, I would agree with that because I did have a
friend outside the family thatwas a boy and he encouraged me
becoming a boy.
So there definitely can beoutside influences as well as
outside trauma, and a lot of itis sexual trauma, and I don't
mean necessarily rape ormolestation, but it could be
(10:19):
something as easy as exposingthem to pornography, you know,
seeing images that theyshouldn't be seeing at such a
tender age.
You know, because between zeroand eight is like the
informative years and that'swhere you begin to get shaped
and so, yes, and then going toschool, it's taught in schools
now.
Comprehensive sex ed teachesyou who are you, and is that
(10:41):
really true?
And they're teaching a wholelot of other things to you that
are very inappropriate at a veryyoung age like that, because
they just don't have the toolsto understand who they are.
So part of the home life is forthem to be shaped as far as who
they are and their identity.
Now, parents see my child wantsto play with dolls.
(11:02):
Sometimes that's okay becauseyou know boys tend to be curious
about that.
Girls tend to be curious aboutwanting to be a boy, and then
they reach a certain age andthey're like I don't want to be
that.
You know, I like being a girl.
I just I had a friend who had aneighbor.
That's like we're reallyconcerned about our neighbor
because she plays.
She comes over and plays withmy son and she just says she
(11:23):
wants to be a boy.
Well, once she reached like age16, she's like no, I don't want
to be a boy, I really like beinga girl.
And so to degree there is acertain tomboyishness and they
do grow out of that.
But I think they grow out ofthat because they're still at
home, they're still identifiedand affirmed as who they are, as
(11:43):
a boy or a girl, as a son or adaughter, and they know that
they're loved and for whateverreason that opposite sex looks
good because maybe they have iteasier or whatever the
interpretation is, but usually,left alone, they grow out of
that.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And, of course, if they're being reinforced in
school, you know that it is okayto change your gender, that it
is normal or acceptable.
That doesn't help either,probably, for them to be able to
step out of that.
So that started at a young age.
And then what happened next?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So, you know, I went through school struggling
privately, fantasizing abouthaving girlfriends.
Finally, at the age of 19, Iwas desperate and the
self-hatred was so deep that I'mlike I got it.
Get out of this body.
I got to start living as a manand be who I really believed I
was.
So, at the age of 19, I movedout from the house, started
(12:43):
taking hormones, changed my nameand started to live as a man
and I thought I had arrived.
I thought this is it.
I'm finally who I am supposedto be.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So did that make you happy.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It did for a short term.
I didn't realize the depressionthat I had At a very early age.
I understood that emotions weredangerous and so I detached
from that.
So I lived a lot of my lifejust thinking logically.
So logically, I feel this way,so logically, this is who I'm
supposed to be and I'll do thesethings to help me to live that
(13:20):
life.
And so I didn't reallyunderstand the pain that I was
in and the decision to make tolive as a man, in making that
was driven by pain.
It was driven by the trauma andall those experiences telling
me that I'm bad, I'm trying toescape that and I wanted to be
safe.
And, as far as I could tell, Ithought I was.
(13:43):
And I lived that way for 11years, dating women and that
type of thing, and not datingwomen.
You know, I didn't become a manso I could date women.
I dated them.
I lived as a man so I could besafe and I thought that was the
way to live for 11 years, takinghormones, going to church as a
man, portraying as a man, nevertelling anybody.
(14:05):
You know that I was a woman.
I just wanted to have a normallife.
That was my whole goal to havea normal life as a man and to
live that way, and I thoughtthat would be happy ever after.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So and I apologize in advance for maybe my ignorance,
but were you sexually attractedto women or you just wanted to
be, to have the identity of aman?
And is there a difference, then, you know, between
homosexuality and genderconfusion?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
It's a great question .
I would say yes to your yes toboth questions.
Yes, I was sexually attractedto women and, yes, I just wanted
to be a man and I believed that, living as a man, I was
heterosexual and I honestlybelieve that being gay was wrong
.
I didn't want to be gay, Iwanted to be, identified as a
man and I believe the reason whyI had the attraction for women
(15:01):
is because of the nurturing Ilacked growing up and so I was
seeking that nurturing from them, because all the women I dated
were very sweet, very nurturing.
You know, all needed to berescued and since I've
detransitioned out of that, thatattraction has since left,
because I've received thehealing for that.
And I think, for you know, gayand lesbian, they're fine in
(15:23):
their gender.
I'm not saying they haven'tthought that they haven't wanted
to be a man or anything likethat, because some of them have.
They're like I've thought aboutbeing a man, I thought I should
be, but yet there wasn't enoughself-hatred.
I think that it was enough toforce them or to encourage them
to begin to live as thatopposite sex.
(15:43):
And they also found a partnerwho was also a woman or a man
that you know said you don'tneed to change, you know I'm
happy this way, and so there'ssomething that either was more
disconnected in me or somethingthat wasn't connected in me that
wanted to change.
Where that doesn't happen inthe gay and lesbian, I think
(16:06):
they have just enoughaffirmation from home that my
sexual identity is okay, but myorientation is I'm trying to get
an unmet need met through thisother person, through this
lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But you do believe that the root of the problem is
the same.
It's just a different solution,perhaps.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I think it just manifests differently and I
think in the LGBTQ, when we lookat that lifestyle, I think
that's all manifestations ofpain.
If we look at that, it's likethat person has some wounding in
their past that they're lookingto get met through this, or
there's severe unmet needs orthere's trauma that they're
(16:48):
trying to fix or get met in.
You know this lifestyle and ifyou talk to a lot of them, they
say that they're happy, but whenyou look at their life, it's
really it's really not a happylife.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
So I want to pause a little bit on your adolescence,
because right now there are twodifferent legislations that are
fighting against each other, andone is titled a bill, is titled
Help Not Harm.
That requires prevents medicalprofessionals from administering
(17:23):
gender change treatments toyoung children, adolescents.
And then the other one, I thinkit's called gender affirmative
care, that says that it isvitally important to provide
those treatments to adolescentsto prevent the suicide and
depression.
(17:43):
So did you feel at any pointsuicidal, as you were in your
adolescence, in high schoolperhaps?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I did not.
Depressed yes, suicidal no, andit wasn't.
Yes, I desperately wanted tolive as a man, but not so
desperately to the place where Iwould take my own life if I
couldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So what do you think is the solution?
Because you know, when we talkabout adolescence, before they
reach the age of accountabilityand adulthood, and they are in
this situation and they are onthe brink of suicide.
What hope do parents have inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I believe that they have to understand that it's not
that their child wants totransition.
It's the why they want totransition.
It's looking at thoseunderlying issues.
There's deep underlying issuesthere that the child in the
transitioning.
We need to look at.
That that's a cry for help andit's not helping them to
transition.
(18:50):
In fact, once they transition,that underlying current that's
stirring everything up does notgo away.
It doesn't get better.
It may for a little bit,because you're like I
experienced that started thehormones.
I'm like whoa, I've arrived,look at me.
And then I just went back intothe same old, same old.
And in fact, the anxiety riseswhen I watch these young
(19:15):
adolescents begin to takehormones because now they do
have to present this way andit's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work to continueto live as something that you're
not created to be or, you know,present this person every day
of who you're really not.
It's a lot of work, it'sexhausting, and so you take that
(19:35):
depression and that anxiety andthat stress and that exhaustion
and you pile more of it onthere.
You know, of course, you knowthey're going to self destruct,
you know, and they're going tostart cutting, if they're not
already?
And I think we need to get downto the root of why they want to
live in that opposite sex.
(19:57):
Why is that so important?
What is it that they believeabout themselves?
That has no value.
It comes down to their valueand that they're enough in their
identity as they are.
And it's interesting.
I've watched some otherdetransitioner stories and when
they get out of puberty they'relike what was I thinking?
I don't want to do this.
(20:18):
And then they have todetransition.
So again it goes back tolooking at the underlying
current.
That's, you know, putting themin this depression and parents
to be watching.
For what are the behavioralchanges that my child is going
through?
Are they dressing different?
Who are their friends?
Where are they on social media?
They really need to be aware ofwhat's feeding you.
(20:41):
You know, looking at what'syour curriculum, that you're
being taught and go into schoolboard meetings, getting involved
in that.
Looking again, going to socialmedia.
Where are they on social media?
Because there's a lot ofplatforms that are out there.
They're like, if your parentsdon't accept this, we love you,
and so they create thiswelcoming environment and this
(21:03):
child is vulnerable and hurtingand wants that attention.
They're desperate for attentionand I'm not sure why that's not
happening at home, or maybe itis and in the child's perception
that's not what they want orthey think that they need.
So they're going to go outoutside of the home and they're
going to look for that andthere's a ton of welcoming
(21:23):
things that will bring them intothat to say, hey, look at this.
So I would encourage parents,when they begin to see these
changes, especially if the childis on social media, how long
are they on their laptop ortheir phone, you know, taking a
look at that, and then are theyisolating.
Because when they start toisolate, then they're going to
be on their laptop or theirphone even more.
(21:44):
And if they have a social mediaaccount and they're presenting
as the opposite sex, it's kindof like this, it's an addiction.
So if I get a like for wearinglipstick, I get 10,000, you know
, or 5,000 likes.
And then I wear eye makeup anda dress and I present that on
social media.
How many more likes will I get?
So it's really goes down againto that affirmation of them
(22:09):
understanding that who they areis enough and it is valuable and
they have something to offerand they were created on purpose
, for a purpose and getting tothe root of that through
counseling and sometimes ittakes family counseling and the
parents to look at.
Okay.
So let's risk and ask the childwhat are the offenses or where
(22:30):
did we not meet your needs?
And allow the child to expressthat.
And it may not be true, butit's their perception and that
perception needs truth and itneeds to be dealt with and
understood.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Exactly.
So what made you realize thatliving a life of a different
gender didn't really make youhappy or solve your issues?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Well, I was confronted by the church and
they asked me because I'd beenliving as a man and I'd been
involved in ministry.
And they somebody told them hey, this is this person is
presenting this way, but that'snot who they are.
So they asked me a question andthey're saying we're hearing
rumors about you and we want toknow who are you, who are you
(23:16):
really?
And I confessed and I said I'ma woman, living as a man and
prior to that I believed I was aman who used to be a woman.
But it was when I confessed andtold the truth that I'm a woman
, living as a man, I encounteredthe Lord and it was in that
encounter with the Lord, youknow, the Holy Spirit blew into
(23:38):
me and when I encountered thatbreath of God, it was like the
truth came all tumbling forwardand it was like, okay, wow, I'm
not living how I was created tobe.
And when I said yes to the Lordand walking that out, it was.
Then I began to work backthrough all of this stuff,
(23:59):
seeing the pain, seeing themolestation, forgiveness of my
dad for how he treated my mom,how he treated me, understanding
that I am enough and you know,god created me for a purpose and
I was created in his image, soI'm an image bearer.
And what am I doing with that?
How can I steward that?
And you know, embracing thetruth that being a woman is good
(24:22):
, you know, just confronting allthose lies and then tearing
down I guess the buzz term nowis deconstruction.
I'm just deconstructing allthose lies that I believed about
how a man is better.
And then I also realized that Ihad this fear of men and I had
to work through that.
(24:43):
Men not all men were my dad andthat there were good men out
there that had good for me, thatweren't just it and just taking
from me, you know.
And then I was put into afamily.
I got to live with the familyand I got to see what a healthy
family environment was like.
So to a degree I got to grow upall over again.
(25:06):
I got to see healthy parentsand a healthy marriage and how
the kids respond to parents wholove them, you know.
And it was just this wholeprocess and it took about five
years for I got to a place whereI'm like Okay, I'm ready to
really go back to living as awoman, because I was kind of in
this not really a man but notreally a woman place, kind of
(25:30):
not really androgynous, but thisvery neutral place, and I had
to trust the Lord for a lot ofthe truth and I also had a
really great community.
And then, going back to thechurch, I had a church where I
could just go and be and theyweren't inspecting my process,
they were with me in the processand sure, there were those that
(25:51):
how come you're not doing thisand why aren't you doing that
and what's taking you so long?
And it's like you're doing thebest I can here.
You know, because there was somuch stuff to work through,
there's so much pain, and I hadtwo really great, very straight
women come alongside me,nurturing moms, to walk with me,
to help me understand, and Ican remember one of my mentors
(26:13):
saying you asked me questions.
It was like how come you don'tknow this?
You should have been taughtthis when you were six.
How do you not know this?
I'm like I don't know it.
So I feel like they came in andthey filled in the gaps.
And same with the church, youknow, they came in and they're
like, hey, how you doing today?
You want to go out for coffeeand they made space for me and
(26:35):
again, it wasn't all aboutexamining my process.
It was like how do we just walkwith you in this?
Because they saw that yeah,you're struggling and yeah,
you're trying to figure out thetruth and you're trying to
figure out who you are, butthere's more to you than this
struggle.
You have giftings, you havethings to offer.
You know the Lord's going totake you places, and how do I
(26:58):
partner with Him in that?
So it was, yeah, five years ofthat, and I would say even 10,
because even once I crossed outof that lifestyle and began to
live as a woman, I was stillfiguring out okay, what do I do
with men?
Because you know, I dealt withthe fear of men, and not just
the fear of man, but the fear ofmen forever.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It felt like, you know, and just realizing you
know I have to ask this questionhave you been able to fall in
love with a guy?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yeah.
So I have dated, I've had mycrushes, you know.
I've like, oh you're, you'repretty cute.
So that whole attraction thinghas changed.
And in fact I was talking to afriend about this just yesterday
and we're joking.
She said you should, you shouldget on a dating website.
And I'm like, are you crazy?
And she's like, no, what, whathappens if you would meet
(27:51):
somebody?
I'm like I don't know whatwould happen, you know, but I'm
very much open to that idea.
And now I notice men.
I mean, I've been noticing menfor a long time but I'm like,
what about you?
What it would be like if youwere my husband?
And I've made a list for theLord okay, these are the
qualities he needs to have youknow, I'm afraid when you fall
(28:16):
in love, the list goes out thewindow.
Well, that is good to know.
I mean, don't hold it too tight, but I can make off, check off
the little things, right?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Right.
Well, so this is an incrediblestory and I was very encouraged
when I read your story, becauseyou hear a lot more stories of
where this didn't work out forpeople and they still find
themselves miserable and unhappyand unfulfilled.
(28:53):
So it seems like your experiencewith the church helping you get
through this was mostlypositive, or whether some
moments.
I guess my question is whatwould you want, how would you
want the church to address that?
Because here's the conversationthat I had with my friends and
we were literally talking afterthis movie, watching the movie
(29:15):
Jesus Revolution, and how wewant to capture the struggle of
our generation, and then it justcame down to this well, let's
say, transgender person orgender confused person comes to
the church, and so where do westart?
You know, of course we receivethem, we love them, but we have
(29:36):
to let them know that this iswrong, like if it's, let's say,
if this is Keith that came intothe church, do we call him Keith
or do we call him Kathy Grace?
What is the right thing to do?
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Well.
So it goes back to a level ofrelationship, you know, and
sometimes the transgender personcomes in and you don't know.
So I was so deceptive in mylooks, you wouldn't have known
that I was a woman, you wouldhave accepted me right off as a
guy and would have been inrelationship that that may have
been discovered.
(30:10):
Because, you know, in talkingwith people you begin to have
friends and it's you selectthose people that you're like I
want to trust you.
You know we've connected.
I want to trust you so they canfight in you.
And you know, sure, the firstresponse is like, oh my gosh,
now what do I do?
You continue to be their friend.
(30:31):
It's no different than they'vetold you.
I've committed adultery, youknow.
And one of the examples,because I was asking the Lord,
lord, how do we, how do we meetthese people?
And he showed me this, thesethree examples.
So you're a greeter at the doorand the first person comes in.
His name's Frank and he's apillar in the business community
(30:52):
.
He, you know, funds differentevents and he comes in and
you're like good morning, frank,how's it going?
He's like, oh, it's so goodLife.
God is good, you know.
And then behind him.
Mary comes in.
Mary is, you know, she's thefounder of the co-op and they do
, you know, home school.
She leads Bible study.
And she comes in and it's likegood morning, mary.
(31:14):
I gotta tell you that Biblestudy that was out of the park,
man, it was so good.
And she's like thank you.
And then in walks Becky, nowBecky.
When you look at Becky you cantell Becky's not Becky, becky
Sam.
And you're like good morningand hi, welcome to our church.
And all of a sudden everythinggets uncomfortable.
(31:34):
Why, I get that.
That's not normal and you cantell that's really not Becky.
But Becky goes in and the Lordpointed out to me.
He said you know, frank is apillar in the community but he's
embezzling money from thecompany.
But you don't know that becauseyou can't see that Mary is
cheating on her husband.
But you can't see that either.
(31:56):
But Becky comes in and Becky'swearing her pain, being wanting
to be Becky, sam, wanting to beBecky.
Becky's wearing her pain.
So out of respect, because wedon't have that level of
relationship to tell them thetruth yet, though, we want to
right that's kind of thereligious answer.
(32:18):
So we have to form arelationship with Becky, we have
to meet Becky where she's at,becky where she's at, so that he
can come into the truth.
And it's in that relationshipwe earn that place of trust.
We give them that respect.
We meet them Because I thinkabout Jesus and the woman at the
well.
(32:39):
He knew all about her and herisked his relation or his
reputation as a Jewish man totalk to a Samaritan woman which
was like whoa, what are youthinking?
But he risked that and what he?
What he said to her?
The first thing was give me adrink.
He asked her for something andshe's like well, I don't have
anything.
(32:59):
And then what does he do?
He offers her a different wayWell, I'm the living water.
And he doesn't say anythingabout knowing where she's at
until she confesses.
Because he says, hey, go getyour husband's because, well, I
don't have a husband.
He's like you're right, youhave five right.
So he opens that space for herto tell him the truth.
(33:21):
And we as a church, you know,and I think about it's in levels
of relationships.
So if we're just meeting thistransgender person for the first
time, we don't know them in anyother capacity.
And you know, before the Lordconfronted me and I, and I
confessed I'm a woman living asa man.
The Lord came to me four yearsprior to that and said to me
(33:43):
will you now?
And I said yes to him.
And in this next four years theLord wooed me and I served in
the church as a man.
I still lived as a man foranother four years.
So there was four years wherethe Lord was patient with me
until he came to the place wherehe knew he, if I, if I bring
her this truth now, I thinkshe's going to go for it right,
(34:07):
and so we have to have that samepatience with this person and
understanding.
Becky didn't get there overnight.
Sam didn't start strugglingwith this that morning when he
got up to came to church.
Sam's been struggling with areally long time.
So because Sam didn't get thereovernight, he's not going to
(34:27):
come out overnight and Sam needsa safe place to feel loved.
First, he needs to know thathe's loved so that when he gets
ready to confess you know what.
I'm struggling with this and Ithink this is the only way to
live.
It's in that place, when heopens the door and says I need
(34:48):
help, that we can come in andsay I want to help you, and it's
not necessarily again by sayingyou need to go back to being a
woman, but it's asking him thosequestions and allowing him to
continue to invite us into thatspace.
So, sam, tell me how you gothere, or Becky, tell me how you
got here.
Why did you want to live as awoman?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Let's look at the flip side of this coin, though.
You know we talked about thefact that now it's part of the
school curriculum to teach thechildren that it is okay to
change their gender upon theirwishes and be a different gender
than you were born, and so youcan't help but feel that we are
(35:33):
living in the time of war ongender, war on war on sexuality,
war on family, and so it's onlynatural that the church feels a
little defensive, you know,when it comes to protecting our
values, at the very least withinour church building.
So let's say there is Becky,who is not Becky, and she's
(35:55):
warmly welcomed and received asshe is, while we're waiting for
the Holy Spirit to do his workin her heart.
But let's say Becky wants toserve in some capacity.
So what do we do then?
Speaker 3 (36:08):
You make a boundary and it's okay when Becky comes
and says, hey, I want to servehere.
We cannot give them aleadership position.
I don't believe in that and Idon't believe we just open the
doors and kind of lay down thewelcome mat everywhere to Becky.
Sam needs to be loved, samneeds to know that he's safe
(36:31):
while he's figuring out thatbeing Becky is not okay.
And we have to trust the Lordin them, that he's working to
and that they're at that churchfor a reason.
They're there because they'researching.
They're like I don't know ifthere's a God, but if there is,
I need him to show up.
And so while they're searching,we have to understand the Lord
(36:53):
met us in our mess too.
And what did that look like?
He didn't expect us to changeour mess overnight.
Instead, he came in and hebegan to woo us into a deeper
relationship with him, so thatwhen he said, okay, we need to
do with this mess, we're like,yeah, we do.
And so if Becky says, you know,I want to serve in the
children's ministry, then Ibelieve it's okay for the church
(37:16):
to go.
We need to talk because we needto know your history, we need
to understand you know why youcame to the church and you know
forgive us if we're wrong aboutthis, but you know we're not
sure that you've always been awoman and we need to talk about
that, because we do haveboundaries as far as who serves
(37:38):
in the church.
And you know we don't know youthat well.
Maybe you've been here for twoyears but you haven't really
been involved in a lot.
And maybe if Becky wants tojoin a women's Bible study, a
boundary needs to be set withthat too.
It's okay to hold your biblicalstandards, but at the same time
(37:58):
we still have to try to figureout how to say no in an
encouraging way.
You know, if Becky wants tojoin a women's Bible study, it's
like you know we need to talkabout that because I'm not sure
that that would be a good fitfor you.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
I was just thinking that we have discussed the
scenario where a person actuallyreached out.
They came to church.
Do you think there is?
It makes sense?
Because many of them won't justfor the fear of being rejected
and shunned and judged.
You know so and of course, youknow me being involved in the
(38:33):
missions ministry and, being amissionary, I'm always thinking
outside the doors of the church,so you know, naturally the
desire is to go out and meetpeople where they are before
they express their desire orcourage, have the courage to
step inside the church, but atthe same time.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
(38:54):
What is the best way to do that?
Missionary going out meetingpeople yeah reaching out to this
community where they are.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Sure.
So I have a friend trans man,so a woman living as a man.
He goes by Harley and I startedinteraction with him and we
meet together and he lovesmeeting with me.
He wanted me to start the fightwith the hormones and all of
that stuff, as far as it beingdangerous.
And I said Now, I don't knowHarley's female name at all,
(39:26):
he's never shared that with me.
So I've met him.
Where is that?
And I said you know, that's notmy fight.
I agree with you as far as thehormone thing is bad, but that's
not my fight.
Because if I entered that withyou, I'd want him to be, to
become detransitioners.
I'd want him to come out ofthat lifestyle.
And he said, okay, I canappreciate that.
(39:48):
And I said you know, with youunderstanding the harms of the
hormone, what keeps you fromdetransitioning?
And he said to me so if Idetransition, would I have to
look at all that pain, all thatsexual molestation and rapes
that I've went through?
And I said, yeah, you would.
If you want complete healing,yeah you would.
And he's like Then I can't dothat.
(40:08):
So there's a fear of them beingvulnerable.
But yet Harley loves hangingout with me and he says to me
you know, if I was to go back tobeing a woman, I'd want to be
like you.
I'm like, okay, but it's likeit's still breaking through that
place of under for Harley tounderstand.
(40:30):
Harley, I love you where you'reat.
I don't want you to stay there.
I want you to have that healingand I will continue to meet
with you until I'm able to getto that place where you're like,
okay, I'm ready.
I'm like, praise the Lord, youknow, because I I live that way
for 11 years, you know.
And so I think about that andpraying for Harley and walking
(40:52):
with him.
You know, I've probably hungout with him off and on for
about two years now and peopleare like, well, how come he's
not in the truth yet?
How come Harley hasn't become ashe?
And I said, you know what Ilive for 11 years as a man, how
patient God was with me for 11years.
I can't expect Harley to comeout, you know, and be whoever
(41:14):
his female persona is until heknows he can trust me.
And we're getting there Again,going out on the street and
meeting people.
It's meeting them where they'reat and just taking the time
because, again, there's more tothem than than that struggle.
It's like so what's yourfavorite color and why?
Why is that your favorite color?
(41:35):
Do you like ice cream?
Let's go get ice cream.
You know, or I see you livehere.
You know why.
Why are you choosing this area?
And it's finding out about them, asking questions about them
and if you notice body language,say, hey, you know, I notice
you seem kind of down today.
Why are you down?
Because it's not always aboutspeaking truth to them, it's
(41:59):
about listening from them.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So my final question is you are a part of Portland
Fellowship and it's anorganization that specifically
helps people from thetransgender and homosexual
background to transition intotheir God given gender or
sexuality.
So what is the success rate ofthe treatment that you offer?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
You know, honestly, that's up to the individual,
because we all have a will, weall have choices.
As far as as success, you know,there are some that have gone
back into the lifestyle and someof that is because there was
areas that were unsurrendered,there was temptation that they
gave into.
It's a two year discipleshipprogram and at that end of two
(42:47):
years some people they come backand they want to go through the
program again because two yearsreally isn't long enough to
deal with all of your stuff.
It took me five.
Good grief, I wouldn't havebeen able to make it through in
two years, you know, and even infive there was still stuff I
needed to go through.
But yes, there's been people whohave fallen back into the
(43:09):
lifestyle, who have gone throughthe Portland Fellowship program
, and there are many who havenot, that continue to live that
godly lifestyle, who continue tochoose the Lord, and for some
it's a daily thing of continuingto choose the Lord rather than
giving into the temptation.
For others it's a continualsurrender and for those who
don't want to surrender thoseareas, for whatever, you know
(43:31):
there's fear.
You know the enemy takesadvantage of that fear and it's
inviting the Lord into everyspace that you could possibly
think of, and then especiallythe ones that he reveals.
I need to be Lord in this spaceand if you can't walk that, or
you don't want to, or you'reunwilling, you're only going to
be able to go as far as you asyou, you know, can.
(43:55):
And I asked the Lord at onepoint so, lord, how free can I
be?
Because I'm like I don't wantto just go halfway, because I've
seen a lot of people just gohalfway and then they're in this
, stuck in this, this place, andI'm like, lord, I don't want to
do that.
So how free can I be?
So I'm like, either I, just I,you know, I guess, to a point I
(44:16):
was looking for a guarantee.
You know, if I'm going tocontinue, then I need to know.
So I'm like, Lord, how free canI be?
And the Lord said to me you'reas free as you want to be.
And I realized I'm the only onewho can hinder my freedom,
because the Lord's like hey, theworld is yours, you know.
And so, as I've pressed in andcontinue to press in, and same
(44:38):
with the ones that I've seen gothrough the program, yes,
sometimes it's hard, it is sohard, it's painful and you think
you're going to die and Ididn't and I'm here, but as you
continue to press in and I'vewatched those continue to press
in, the Lord is amazing.
And how he's rescued, how he'sdelivered, how he's redeemed,
(44:59):
how you know the places thathe's healed and how he's healed
them and how he's met them.
It's miraculous.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Well, and in essence, this struggle is not any
different than anyone else'sstruggle.
We, as believers in Christ, wehave to crucify our flesh daily.
It may be in a different form,and just because our struggles
some of our struggles are morehidden than the struggles of
others doesn't make them anybetter or easier.
(45:28):
And so you know, it's yourstory and it has a purpose, and
I believe that through whatyou're doing now, you're really
fulfilling a God-given purposefor your life, and so I commend
you for that, and I really myprayers are with you.
I appreciate this conversationvery much.
(45:49):
It leaves me excited andinspired, and I believe it will
do the same for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Great, that's awesome .
Speaker 2 (46:00):
God does not make mistakes when he creates us.
Jeremiah 1.5 says Before Iformed you in the womb, I knew
you.
Before you were born, I set youapart.
It is the tragic consequencesof sin that creates confusion
and discord between us and God'splan for our lives.
(46:22):
If you or your loved one are onthe brink of despair today
because you long to be adifferent gender or you are
sexually attracted to people ofthe same sex but also want to
have a deep personalrelationship with Christ, please
know that the Lord is notindifferent to your struggle and
(46:42):
through him there is alwayshope, restoration and redemption
.
I am including in the show notesthe link to Portland Fellowship
, which is portlandfellowshipcom, as well as Kathy Grace's email
that she graciously madeavailable.
But what does this conversationmean for the body of Christ In
(47:06):
the Great Commission?
We are told to go to Jerusalem,which is your backyard, judea,
your community, and Samaria, thecommunity that you normally
don't fellowship with, thepeople that you may not
culturally accept.
And the only way we can beeffective messengers of Christ's
love and hope is by being ableto walk alongside with love and
(47:30):
compassion and truth.
I am very inspired by thisconversation and I hope you were
too Tune in next week foranother interview where I talk
with Bill Thrasher about theways to resurrect and empower
your prayer life.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
What if you had a guide who could tell you how to
bridge a gap between who you aretoday and who you are destined
to be?
What if, each week, you couldhear a story of someone who has
tried and succeeded, or perhapstried and failed but learned
something in the process?
Limitless Spirit is a weeklypodcast where host Helen Todd
interviews guests about topicsand personal stories on defining
(00:23):
life's purpose, pursuingpersonal growth and developing a
deeper faith in Christ.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Limitless
Spirit podcast.
After having been gone foralmost a month on a mission to
the southmost tip of Argentina,I was excited to do this
interview on a topic that hasbeen on my mind lately, and the
topic is how should the Churchreach effectively the
(00:51):
transgender and homosexualcommunities with love and
compassion, but also withoutcompromising Christian beliefs
and convictions?
I could not have found a betterperson for this conversation
than Kathy Grace Duncan, wholonged to be a boy since
childhood, underwent hormonetreatments and lived as Keith
(01:13):
for many years until sheencountered God, confronted her
brokenness and discovered hertrue identity.
Her story is especiallyrelevant because she came to
church as Keith and for sometime, the congregation was not
aware of her secret.
Whether you have a person inyour life who struggles with
(01:33):
gender identity or sexuality orperhaps this is you, your own
struggle I encourage you tolisten to this conversation to
the very end.
This is a story of courage,hope and Christ's boundless love
that helps us uncover who wereally are in him.
(01:54):
Hello, kathy Grace, welcome tothe Limitless Spirit Podcast.
How are you today?
I'm good, thank you.
Where are you located right now?
Are you in Portland, oregon?
Speaker 3 (02:04):
That's correct.
Hometown Portland Oregon.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Awesome, awesome.
Well, let's jump into yourstory first.
I was very excited when I foundyour story and it addresses the
issues that we want to touch on.
I will be honest, what inspiredthis whole interview was when I
watched the movie JesusRevolution.
(02:29):
That is really a wonderfulmovie and it was very inspiring
and I was reminded of how theheroes of this movie really
captured the struggle of theirgeneration, which made me think
what is the struggle of ourgeneration?
And that brought to my mindthat probably the hippies of the
(02:53):
70s to who are the people thatwould be comparable to the
hippie movement of the 70s wouldbe the people who struggle with
gender confusion or sexualorientation today, and it made
me think that the church todayis really not doing enough or
(03:14):
maybe is not equipped to meetthe need of this generation.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Well, I think the church is about 40 years behind
and I think it started, as youknow, back in the day.
It's like we don't know what todo and they're sinners, so
let's reject them, you know,let's tell them you're not
welcome here.
And then they began to realize,well, that's not the approach,
so let's just love them.
(03:41):
So then, in just loving them,they became over-affirming,
which they allowed the gayidentity, trans identity into
the church and didn't requirechange.
And Jesus being Jesus, he'slike yes, I love you no matter
what, but I love you too much toleave you here, and that was
(04:01):
true in my own life.
You know he was like you'reliving as a man, but I want you
to be who I created you to be,and I think the church needs to
come alongside those people, forsure, without compromising the
truth.
One of the things that I neededfrom the church is I needed a
place that was safe, where Icould go and I could just be and
figure stuff out.
(04:22):
Now, yes, I needed people tocome around me and I needed
truth, but the most importantthing was that, even though you
looked at the outside that wasscreaming, you know truth.
I need truth because I'm livingin this deception.
My heart was screaming, I needhelp.
And so it's coming alongside,loving them first and allowing
(04:44):
them to open their heart and sayokay, now I'm ready for you to
speak truth, because what I'vewatched is we approach them with
well, you're kind of a leper,but I'm not going to allow you
to stay in this leper state, soI'm going to give you truth.
And they're like no, no, no, no, no, no.
I want to know that you careabout me, I want to know that
I'm loved, and that's you know.
(05:06):
That's how friendships start,is we come to a common ground,
we get to know each other andthen if that person says to you
I think I want to be your friend, then they begin to open their
heart and you get thatopportunity to speak truth into
those places that are that needtruth.
So it's about relationship andthat's how Jesus approaches.
(05:27):
Everything is aboutrelationship.
So if I don't have relationshipwith them, I can't speak truth.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
This is interesting and it kind of addresses the
conversation that I had with myfriends, who were very
well-meaning individuals, andthis was a conversation where we
were trying to figure out howwould we, what would be the
right and proper way to reachout, and hopefully our
conversation towards the end isgoing to answer these questions.
(05:54):
But before we get there, I wantto talk about you personally.
So how did your journey begin?
Or, a better question, I guess,where did your struggle begin?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Sure, mine started way before kindergarten.
So, like the ages of three andfour, I began to struggle with
wanting to be a boy.
I believed I was born into thewrong body and I felt that I
should have been a boy.
So I struggled continually.
I would ride my tricycle overto my girlfriend's house to pick
her up before we were going toget married, and this was way
(06:29):
before kindergarten, andkindergarten here starts at like
five.
But yet I knew that that wasn'tnormal.
So I kept it a secret and Iknew my parents wouldn't agree.
How I knew that, I don't know.
It was just, you know,intuition, I guess maybe what do
you think was the cause of that?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Because I mean, I guess there is a debate whether
it's a psychological conditionor a biological condition.
But looking back, what do youthink?
Was there some outwardinfluences that made you feel
that way, or you literally don'thave an explanation for that?
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Well, I don't believe that you're born that way.
I believe you know they saynature versus nurture and I tend
to lean on the nurture side.
And the reason I do is becausemy home life was dysfunctional.
You know, I watched my dad beverbally and emotionally abusive
to my mom and I watched my mombeing a victim.
Now, at that young age, at thattender age, you know my mom is
(07:29):
supposed to be my role model andI'm looking at that going.
I don't want to be a victim andI don't want to succumb to this
abuse.
But since I feel like I'm a manI don't want to be that man
that I see my dad.
So I made this vow at a veryearly age that I'm going to be
the man my dad is not, and Ialso took away three lies.
(07:51):
You know that women are weak,women are hated and women are
vulnerable and I don't want togrow up and be that either.
So you know, and if you look atit, from ages zero to five, the
child is pretty much in thehome, you know, the whole time.
So they're surrounded by thisatmosphere and, yeah, there's
parents who love.
But there's something withinthe child there's a perception
(08:13):
like I had a perception thatit's not safe to be a woman.
You know, if I grow up and I'mgoing to be hated, you know I'm
going to be taken advantage of.
You know I'm going to be weakand I don't want to be that.
So it's better to be a man.
You see the opposite sex asbeing better and safer, and so
that's why I believe that's whatdrove me to want to be a man.
(08:36):
And at you know, between theages of 10 and 12, I was
molested by a family member, andso that really cemented in
those three lies that women areweak, hated and vulnerable.
Because if those weren't true,then why is this happening to me
?
And I also had a little brothercome along that was adored by
my dad, which told me that againto be you know.
(08:58):
You know I have the affirmationthat I need to be a boy because
, see, my dad now adores mybrother and he kind of doesn't
pay any attention to me, and itmust be because I'm a girl.
So all these lies are in there,you know, creating a belief
system, and from there I'macting out on this belief system
.
This is in order for me to besafe and to be lovable, to have
(09:21):
value.
I have to be a boy because allthese other things are telling
me it's bad to be a girl.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So would you say that for the parents of a child who
is struggling with gender issues, that puts an enormous
responsibility on them, andsometimes maybe it's not within
the household that the situationhappens.
Do you think that parents whonotice these tendencies in their
(09:47):
child they need to investigatedeeper whether there was a
traumatic event in their child'slife or you know something that
they're not aware of that iscausing that?
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Yeah, I would agree with that because I did have a
friend outside the family thatwas a boy and he encouraged me
becoming a boy.
So there definitely can beoutside influences as well as
outside trauma, and a lot of itis sexual trauma, and I don't
mean necessarily rape ormolestation, but it could be
(10:19):
something as easy as exposingthem to pornography, you know,
seeing images that theyshouldn't be seeing at such a
tender age.
You know, because between zeroand eight is like the
informative years and that'swhere you begin to get shaped
and so, yes, and then going toschool, it's taught in schools
now.
Comprehensive sex ed teachesyou who are you, and is that
(10:41):
really true?
And they're teaching a wholelot of other things to you that
are very inappropriate at a veryyoung age like that, because
they just don't have the toolsto understand who they are.
So part of the home life is forthem to be shaped as far as who
they are and their identity.
Now, parents see my child wantsto play with dolls.
(11:02):
Sometimes that's okay becauseyou know boys tend to be curious
about that.
Girls tend to be curious aboutwanting to be a boy, and then
they reach a certain age andthey're like I don't want to be
that.
You know, I like being a girl.
I just I had a friend who had aneighbor.
That's like we're reallyconcerned about our neighbor
because she plays.
She comes over and plays withmy son and she just says she
(11:23):
wants to be a boy.
Well, once she reached like age16, she's like no, I don't want
to be a boy, I really like beinga girl.
And so to degree there is acertain tomboyishness and they
do grow out of that.
But I think they grow out ofthat because they're still at
home, they're still identifiedand affirmed as who they are, as
(11:43):
a boy or a girl, as a son or adaughter, and they know that
they're loved and for whateverreason that opposite sex looks
good because maybe they have iteasier or whatever the
interpretation is, but usually,left alone, they grow out of
that.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
And, of course, if they're being reinforced in
school, you know that it is okayto change your gender, that it
is normal or acceptable.
That doesn't help either,probably, for them to be able to
step out of that.
So that started at a young age.
And then what happened next?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So, you know, I went through school struggling
privately, fantasizing abouthaving girlfriends.
Finally, at the age of 19, Iwas desperate and the
self-hatred was so deep that I'mlike I got it.
Get out of this body.
I got to start living as a manand be who I really believed I
was.
So, at the age of 19, I movedout from the house, started
(12:43):
taking hormones, changed my nameand started to live as a man
and I thought I had arrived.
I thought this is it.
I'm finally who I am supposedto be.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
So did that make you happy.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
It did for a short term.
I didn't realize the depressionthat I had At a very early age.
I understood that emotions weredangerous and so I detached
from that.
So I lived a lot of my lifejust thinking logically.
So logically, I feel this way,so logically, this is who I'm
supposed to be and I'll do thesethings to help me to live that
(13:20):
life.
And so I didn't reallyunderstand the pain that I was
in and the decision to make tolive as a man, in making that
was driven by pain.
It was driven by the trauma andall those experiences telling
me that I'm bad, I'm trying toescape that and I wanted to be
safe.
And, as far as I could tell, Ithought I was.
(13:43):
And I lived that way for 11years, dating women and that
type of thing, and not datingwomen.
You know, I didn't become a manso I could date women.
I dated them.
I lived as a man so I could besafe and I thought that was the
way to live for 11 years, takinghormones, going to church as a
man, portraying as a man, nevertelling anybody.
(14:05):
You know that I was a woman.
I just wanted to have a normallife.
That was my whole goal to havea normal life as a man and to
live that way, and I thoughtthat would be happy ever after.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So and I apologize in advance for maybe my ignorance,
but were you sexually attractedto women or you just wanted to
be, to have the identity of aman?
And is there a difference, then, you know, between
homosexuality and genderconfusion?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
It's a great question .
I would say yes to your yes toboth questions.
Yes, I was sexually attractedto women and, yes, I just wanted
to be a man and I believed that, living as a man, I was
heterosexual and I honestlybelieve that being gay was wrong
.
I didn't want to be gay, Iwanted to be, identified as a
man and I believe the reason whyI had the attraction for women
(15:01):
is because of the nurturing Ilacked growing up and so I was
seeking that nurturing from them, because all the women I dated
were very sweet, very nurturing.
You know, all needed to berescued and since I've
detransitioned out of that, thatattraction has since left,
because I've received thehealing for that.
And I think, for you know, gayand lesbian, they're fine in
(15:23):
their gender.
I'm not saying they haven'tthought that they haven't wanted
to be a man or anything likethat, because some of them have.
They're like I've thought aboutbeing a man, I thought I should
be, but yet there wasn't enoughself-hatred.
I think that it was enough toforce them or to encourage them
to begin to live as thatopposite sex.
(15:43):
And they also found a partnerwho was also a woman or a man
that you know said you don'tneed to change, you know I'm
happy this way, and so there'ssomething that either was more
disconnected in me or somethingthat wasn't connected in me that
wanted to change.
Where that doesn't happen inthe gay and lesbian, I think
(16:06):
they have just enoughaffirmation from home that my
sexual identity is okay, but myorientation is I'm trying to get
an unmet need met through thisother person, through this
lifestyle.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
But you do believe that the root of the problem is
the same.
It's just a different solution,perhaps.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, I think it just manifests differently and I
think in the LGBTQ, when we lookat that lifestyle, I think
that's all manifestations ofpain.
If we look at that, it's likethat person has some wounding in
their past that they're lookingto get met through this, or
there's severe unmet needs orthere's trauma that they're
(16:48):
trying to fix or get met in.
You know this lifestyle and ifyou talk to a lot of them, they
say that they're happy, but whenyou look at their life, it's
really it's really not a happylife.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
So I want to pause a little bit on your adolescence,
because right now there are twodifferent legislations that are
fighting against each other, andone is titled a bill, is titled
Help Not Harm.
That requires prevents medicalprofessionals from administering
(17:23):
gender change treatments toyoung children, adolescents.
And then the other one, I thinkit's called gender affirmative
care, that says that it isvitally important to provide
those treatments to adolescentsto prevent the suicide and
depression.
(17:43):
So did you feel at any pointsuicidal, as you were in your
adolescence, in high schoolperhaps?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I did not.
Depressed yes, suicidal no, andit wasn't.
Yes, I desperately wanted tolive as a man, but not so
desperately to the place where Iwould take my own life if I
couldn't.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So what do you think is the solution?
Because you know, when we talkabout adolescence, before they
reach the age of accountabilityand adulthood, and they are in
this situation and they are onthe brink of suicide.
What hope do parents have inthat situation?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I believe that they have to understand that it's not
that their child wants totransition.
It's the why they want totransition.
It's looking at thoseunderlying issues.
There's deep underlying issuesthere that the child in the
transitioning.
We need to look at.
That that's a cry for help andit's not helping them to
transition.
(18:50):
In fact, once they transition,that underlying current that's
stirring everything up does notgo away.
It doesn't get better.
It may for a little bit,because you're like I
experienced that started thehormones.
I'm like whoa, I've arrived,look at me.
And then I just went back intothe same old, same old.
And in fact, the anxiety riseswhen I watch these young
(19:15):
adolescents begin to takehormones because now they do
have to present this way andit's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work to continueto live as something that you're
not created to be or, you know,present this person every day
of who you're really not.
It's a lot of work, it'sexhausting, and so you take that
(19:35):
depression and that anxiety andthat stress and that exhaustion
and you pile more of it onthere.
You know, of course, you knowthey're going to self destruct,
you know, and they're going tostart cutting, if they're not
already?
And I think we need to get downto the root of why they want to
live in that opposite sex.
(19:57):
Why is that so important?
What is it that they believeabout themselves?
That has no value.
It comes down to their valueand that they're enough in their
identity as they are.
And it's interesting.
I've watched some otherdetransitioner stories and when
they get out of puberty they'relike what was I thinking?
I don't want to do this.
(20:18):
And then they have todetransition.
So again it goes back tolooking at the underlying
current.
That's, you know, putting themin this depression and parents
to be watching.
For what are the behavioralchanges that my child is going
through?
Are they dressing different?
Who are their friends?
Where are they on social media?
They really need to be aware ofwhat's feeding you.
(20:41):
You know, looking at what'syour curriculum, that you're
being taught and go into schoolboard meetings, getting involved
in that.
Looking again, going to socialmedia.
Where are they on social media?
Because there's a lot ofplatforms that are out there.
They're like, if your parentsdon't accept this, we love you,
and so they create thiswelcoming environment and this
(21:03):
child is vulnerable and hurtingand wants that attention.
They're desperate for attentionand I'm not sure why that's not
happening at home, or maybe itis and in the child's perception
that's not what they want orthey think that they need.
So they're going to go outoutside of the home and they're
going to look for that andthere's a ton of welcoming
(21:23):
things that will bring them intothat to say, hey, look at this.
So I would encourage parents,when they begin to see these
changes, especially if the childis on social media, how long
are they on their laptop ortheir phone, you know, taking a
look at that, and then are theyisolating.
Because when they start toisolate, then they're going to
be on their laptop or theirphone even more.
(21:44):
And if they have a social mediaaccount and they're presenting
as the opposite sex, it's kindof like this, it's an addiction.
So if I get a like for wearinglipstick, I get 10,000, you know
, or 5,000 likes.
And then I wear eye makeup anda dress and I present that on
social media.
How many more likes will I get?
So it's really goes down againto that affirmation of them
(22:09):
understanding that who they areis enough and it is valuable and
they have something to offerand they were created on purpose
, for a purpose and getting tothe root of that through
counseling and sometimes ittakes family counseling and the
parents to look at.
Okay.
So let's risk and ask the childwhat are the offenses or where
(22:30):
did we not meet your needs?
And allow the child to expressthat.
And it may not be true, butit's their perception and that
perception needs truth and itneeds to be dealt with and
understood.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Exactly.
So what made you realize thatliving a life of a different
gender didn't really make youhappy or solve your issues?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Well, I was confronted by the church and
they asked me because I'd beenliving as a man and I'd been
involved in ministry.
And they somebody told them hey, this is this person is
presenting this way, but that'snot who they are.
So they asked me a question andthey're saying we're hearing
rumors about you and we want toknow who are you, who are you
(23:16):
really?
And I confessed and I said I'ma woman, living as a man and
prior to that I believed I was aman who used to be a woman.
But it was when I confessed andtold the truth that I'm a woman
, living as a man, I encounteredthe Lord and it was in that
encounter with the Lord, youknow, the Holy Spirit blew into
(23:38):
me and when I encountered thatbreath of God, it was like the
truth came all tumbling forwardand it was like, okay, wow, I'm
not living how I was created tobe.
And when I said yes to the Lordand walking that out, it was.
Then I began to work backthrough all of this stuff,
(23:59):
seeing the pain, seeing themolestation, forgiveness of my
dad for how he treated my mom,how he treated me, understanding
that I am enough and you know,god created me for a purpose and
I was created in his image, soI'm an image bearer.
And what am I doing with that?
How can I steward that?
And you know, embracing thetruth that being a woman is good
(24:22):
, you know, just confronting allthose lies and then tearing
down I guess the buzz term nowis deconstruction.
I'm just deconstructing allthose lies that I believed about
how a man is better.
And then I also realized that Ihad this fear of men and I had
to work through that.
(24:43):
Men not all men were my dad andthat there were good men out
there that had good for me, thatweren't just it and just taking
from me, you know.
And then I was put into afamily.
I got to live with the familyand I got to see what a healthy
family environment was like.
So to a degree I got to grow upall over again.
(25:06):
I got to see healthy parentsand a healthy marriage and how
the kids respond to parents wholove them, you know.
And it was just this wholeprocess and it took about five
years for I got to a place whereI'm like Okay, I'm ready to
really go back to living as awoman, because I was kind of in
this not really a man but notreally a woman place, kind of
(25:30):
not really androgynous, but thisvery neutral place, and I had
to trust the Lord for a lot ofthe truth and I also had a
really great community.
And then, going back to thechurch, I had a church where I
could just go and be and theyweren't inspecting my process,
they were with me in the processand sure, there were those that
(25:51):
how come you're not doing thisand why aren't you doing that
and what's taking you so long?
And it's like you're doing thebest I can here.
You know, because there was somuch stuff to work through,
there's so much pain, and I hadtwo really great, very straight
women come alongside me,nurturing moms, to walk with me,
to help me understand, and Ican remember one of my mentors
(26:13):
saying you asked me questions.
It was like how come you don'tknow this?
You should have been taughtthis when you were six.
How do you not know this?
I'm like I don't know it.
So I feel like they came in andthey filled in the gaps.
And same with the church, youknow, they came in and they're
like, hey, how you doing today?
You want to go out for coffeeand they made space for me and
(26:35):
again, it wasn't all aboutexamining my process.
It was like how do we just walkwith you in this?
Because they saw that yeah,you're struggling and yeah,
you're trying to figure out thetruth and you're trying to
figure out who you are, butthere's more to you than this
struggle.
You have giftings, you havethings to offer.
You know the Lord's going totake you places, and how do I
(26:58):
partner with Him in that?
So it was, yeah, five years ofthat, and I would say even 10,
because even once I crossed outof that lifestyle and began to
live as a woman, I was stillfiguring out okay, what do I do
with men?
Because you know, I dealt withthe fear of men, and not just
the fear of man, but the fear ofmen forever.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
It felt like, you know, and just realizing you
know I have to ask this questionhave you been able to fall in
love with a guy?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Yeah.
So I have dated, I've had mycrushes, you know.
I've like, oh you're, you'repretty cute.
So that whole attraction thinghas changed.
And in fact I was talking to afriend about this just yesterday
and we're joking.
She said you should, you shouldget on a dating website.
And I'm like, are you crazy?
And she's like, no, what, whathappens if you would meet
(27:51):
somebody?
I'm like I don't know whatwould happen, you know, but I'm
very much open to that idea.
And now I notice men.
I mean, I've been noticing menfor a long time but I'm like,
what about you?
What it would be like if youwere my husband?
And I've made a list for theLord okay, these are the
qualities he needs to have youknow, I'm afraid when you fall
(28:16):
in love, the list goes out thewindow.
Well, that is good to know.
I mean, don't hold it too tight, but I can make off, check off
the little things, right?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Right.
Well, so this is an incrediblestory and I was very encouraged
when I read your story, becauseyou hear a lot more stories of
where this didn't work out forpeople and they still find
themselves miserable and unhappyand unfulfilled.
(28:53):
So it seems like your experiencewith the church helping you get
through this was mostlypositive, or whether some
moments.
I guess my question is whatwould you want, how would you
want the church to address that?
Because here's the conversationthat I had with my friends and
we were literally talking afterthis movie, watching the movie
(29:15):
Jesus Revolution, and how wewant to capture the struggle of
our generation, and then it justcame down to this well, let's
say, transgender person orgender confused person comes to
the church, and so where do westart?
You know, of course we receivethem, we love them, but we have
(29:36):
to let them know that this iswrong, like if it's, let's say,
if this is Keith that came intothe church, do we call him Keith
or do we call him Kathy Grace?
What is the right thing to do?
So what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Well.
So it goes back to a level ofrelationship, you know, and
sometimes the transgender personcomes in and you don't know.
So I was so deceptive in mylooks, you wouldn't have known
that I was a woman, you wouldhave accepted me right off as a
guy and would have been inrelationship that that may have
been discovered.
(30:10):
Because, you know, in talkingwith people you begin to have
friends and it's you selectthose people that you're like I
want to trust you.
You know we've connected.
I want to trust you so they canfight in you.
And you know, sure, the firstresponse is like, oh my gosh,
now what do I do?
You continue to be their friend.
(30:31):
It's no different than they'vetold you.
I've committed adultery, youknow.
And one of the examples,because I was asking the Lord,
lord, how do we, how do we meetthese people?
And he showed me this, thesethree examples.
So you're a greeter at the doorand the first person comes in.
His name's Frank and he's apillar in the business community
(30:52):
.
He, you know, funds differentevents and he comes in and
you're like good morning, frank,how's it going?
He's like, oh, it's so goodLife.
God is good, you know.
And then behind him.
Mary comes in.
Mary is, you know, she's thefounder of the co-op and they do
, you know, home school.
She leads Bible study.
And she comes in and it's likegood morning, mary.
(31:14):
I gotta tell you that Biblestudy that was out of the park,
man, it was so good.
And she's like thank you.
And then in walks Becky, nowBecky.
When you look at Becky you cantell Becky's not Becky, becky
Sam.
And you're like good morningand hi, welcome to our church.
And all of a sudden everythinggets uncomfortable.
(31:34):
Why, I get that.
That's not normal and you cantell that's really not Becky.
But Becky goes in and the Lordpointed out to me.
He said you know, frank is apillar in the community but he's
embezzling money from thecompany.
But you don't know that becauseyou can't see that Mary is
cheating on her husband.
But you can't see that either.
(31:56):
But Becky comes in and Becky'swearing her pain, being wanting
to be Becky, sam, wanting to beBecky.
Becky's wearing her pain.
So out of respect, because wedon't have that level of
relationship to tell them thetruth yet, though, we want to
right that's kind of thereligious answer.
(32:18):
So we have to form arelationship with Becky, we have
to meet Becky where she's at,becky where she's at, so that he
can come into the truth.
And it's in that relationshipwe earn that place of trust.
We give them that respect.
We meet them Because I thinkabout Jesus and the woman at the
well.
(32:39):
He knew all about her and herisked his relation or his
reputation as a Jewish man totalk to a Samaritan woman which
was like whoa, what are youthinking?
But he risked that and what he?
What he said to her?
The first thing was give me adrink.
He asked her for something andshe's like well, I don't have
anything.
(32:59):
And then what does he do?
He offers her a different wayWell, I'm the living water.
And he doesn't say anythingabout knowing where she's at
until she confesses.
Because he says, hey, go getyour husband's because, well, I
don't have a husband.
He's like you're right, youhave five right.
So he opens that space for herto tell him the truth.
(33:21):
And we as a church, you know,and I think about it's in levels
of relationships.
So if we're just meeting thistransgender person for the first
time, we don't know them in anyother capacity.
And you know, before the Lordconfronted me and I, and I
confessed I'm a woman living asa man.
The Lord came to me four yearsprior to that and said to me
(33:43):
will you now?
And I said yes to him.
And in this next four years theLord wooed me and I served in
the church as a man.
I still lived as a man foranother four years.
So there was four years wherethe Lord was patient with me
until he came to the place wherehe knew he, if I, if I bring
her this truth now, I thinkshe's going to go for it right,
(34:07):
and so we have to have that samepatience with this person and
understanding.
Becky didn't get there overnight.
Sam didn't start strugglingwith this that morning when he
got up to came to church.
Sam's been struggling with areally long time.
So because Sam didn't get thereovernight, he's not going to
(34:27):
come out overnight and Sam needsa safe place to feel loved.
First, he needs to know thathe's loved so that when he gets
ready to confess you know what.
I'm struggling with this and Ithink this is the only way to
live.
It's in that place, when heopens the door and says I need
(34:48):
help, that we can come in andsay I want to help you, and it's
not necessarily again by sayingyou need to go back to being a
woman, but it's asking him thosequestions and allowing him to
continue to invite us into thatspace.
So, sam, tell me how you gothere, or Becky, tell me how you
got here.
Why did you want to live as awoman?
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Let's look at the flip side of this coin, though.
You know we talked about thefact that now it's part of the
school curriculum to teach thechildren that it is okay to
change their gender upon theirwishes and be a different gender
than you were born, and so youcan't help but feel that we are
(35:33):
living in the time of war ongender, war on war on sexuality,
war on family, and so it's onlynatural that the church feels a
little defensive, you know,when it comes to protecting our
values, at the very least withinour church building.
So let's say there is Becky,who is not Becky, and she's
(35:55):
warmly welcomed and received asshe is, while we're waiting for
the Holy Spirit to do his workin her heart.
But let's say Becky wants toserve in some capacity.
So what do we do then?
Speaker 3 (36:08):
You make a boundary and it's okay when Becky comes
and says, hey, I want to servehere.
We cannot give them aleadership position.
I don't believe in that and Idon't believe we just open the
doors and kind of lay down thewelcome mat everywhere to Becky.
Sam needs to be loved, samneeds to know that he's safe
(36:31):
while he's figuring out thatbeing Becky is not okay.
And we have to trust the Lordin them, that he's working to
and that they're at that churchfor a reason.
They're there because they'researching.
They're like I don't know ifthere's a God, but if there is,
I need him to show up.
And so while they're searching,we have to understand the Lord
(36:53):
met us in our mess too.
And what did that look like?
He didn't expect us to changeour mess overnight.
Instead, he came in and hebegan to woo us into a deeper
relationship with him, so thatwhen he said, okay, we need to
do with this mess, we're like,yeah, we do.
And so if Becky says, you know,I want to serve in the
children's ministry, then Ibelieve it's okay for the church
(37:16):
to go.
We need to talk because we needto know your history, we need
to understand you know why youcame to the church and you know
forgive us if we're wrong aboutthis, but you know we're not
sure that you've always been awoman and we need to talk about
that, because we do haveboundaries as far as who serves
(37:38):
in the church.
And you know we don't know youthat well.
Maybe you've been here for twoyears but you haven't really
been involved in a lot.
And maybe if Becky wants tojoin a women's Bible study, a
boundary needs to be set withthat too.
It's okay to hold your biblicalstandards, but at the same time
(37:58):
we still have to try to figureout how to say no in an
encouraging way.
You know, if Becky wants tojoin a women's Bible study, it's
like you know we need to talkabout that because I'm not sure
that that would be a good fitfor you.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
I was just thinking that we have discussed the
scenario where a person actuallyreached out.
They came to church.
Do you think there is?
It makes sense?
Because many of them won't justfor the fear of being rejected
and shunned and judged.
You know so and of course, youknow me being involved in the
(38:33):
missions ministry and, being amissionary, I'm always thinking
outside the doors of the church,so you know, naturally the
desire is to go out and meetpeople where they are before
they express their desire orcourage, have the courage to
step inside the church, but atthe same time.
So what are your thoughts onthat?
(38:54):
What is the best way to do that?
Missionary going out meetingpeople yeah reaching out to this
community where they are.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Sure.
So I have a friend trans man,so a woman living as a man.
He goes by Harley and I startedinteraction with him and we
meet together and he lovesmeeting with me.
He wanted me to start the fightwith the hormones and all of
that stuff, as far as it beingdangerous.
And I said Now, I don't knowHarley's female name at all,
(39:26):
he's never shared that with me.
So I've met him.
Where is that?
And I said you know, that's notmy fight.
I agree with you as far as thehormone thing is bad, but that's
not my fight.
Because if I entered that withyou, I'd want him to be, to
become detransitioners.
I'd want him to come out ofthat lifestyle.
And he said, okay, I canappreciate that.
(39:48):
And I said you know, with youunderstanding the harms of the
hormone, what keeps you fromdetransitioning?
And he said to me so if Idetransition, would I have to
look at all that pain, all thatsexual molestation and rapes
that I've went through?
And I said, yeah, you would.
If you want complete healing,yeah you would.
And he's like Then I can't dothat.
(40:08):
So there's a fear of them beingvulnerable.
But yet Harley loves hangingout with me and he says to me
you know, if I was to go back tobeing a woman, I'd want to be
like you.
I'm like, okay, but it's likeit's still breaking through that
place of under for Harley tounderstand.
(40:30):
Harley, I love you where you'reat.
I don't want you to stay there.
I want you to have that healingand I will continue to meet
with you until I'm able to getto that place where you're like,
okay, I'm ready.
I'm like, praise the Lord, youknow, because I I live that way
for 11 years, you know.
And so I think about that andpraying for Harley and walking
(40:52):
with him.
You know, I've probably hungout with him off and on for
about two years now and peopleare like, well, how come he's
not in the truth yet?
How come Harley hasn't become ashe?
And I said, you know what Ilive for 11 years as a man, how
patient God was with me for 11years.
I can't expect Harley to comeout, you know, and be whoever
(41:14):
his female persona is until heknows he can trust me.
And we're getting there Again,going out on the street and
meeting people.
It's meeting them where they'reat and just taking the time
because, again, there's more tothem than than that struggle.
It's like so what's yourfavorite color and why?
Why is that your favorite color?
(41:35):
Do you like ice cream?
Let's go get ice cream.
You know, or I see you livehere.
You know why.
Why are you choosing this area?
And it's finding out about them, asking questions about them
and if you notice body language,say, hey, you know, I notice
you seem kind of down today.
Why are you down?
Because it's not always aboutspeaking truth to them, it's
(41:59):
about listening from them.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So my final question is you are a part of Portland
Fellowship and it's anorganization that specifically
helps people from thetransgender and homosexual
background to transition intotheir God given gender or
sexuality.
So what is the success rate ofthe treatment that you offer?
Speaker 3 (42:25):
You know, honestly, that's up to the individual,
because we all have a will, weall have choices.
As far as as success, you know,there are some that have gone
back into the lifestyle and someof that is because there was
areas that were unsurrendered,there was temptation that they
gave into.
It's a two year discipleshipprogram and at that end of two
(42:47):
years some people they come backand they want to go through the
program again because two yearsreally isn't long enough to
deal with all of your stuff.
It took me five.
Good grief, I wouldn't havebeen able to make it through in
two years, you know, and even infive there was still stuff I
needed to go through.
But yes, there's been people whohave fallen back into the
(43:09):
lifestyle, who have gone throughthe Portland Fellowship program
, and there are many who havenot, that continue to live that
godly lifestyle, who continue tochoose the Lord, and for some
it's a daily thing of continuingto choose the Lord rather than
giving into the temptation.
For others it's a continualsurrender and for those who
don't want to surrender thoseareas, for whatever, you know
(43:31):
there's fear.
You know the enemy takesadvantage of that fear and it's
inviting the Lord into everyspace that you could possibly
think of, and then especiallythe ones that he reveals.
I need to be Lord in this spaceand if you can't walk that, or
you don't want to, or you'reunwilling, you're only going to
be able to go as far as you asyou, you know, can.
(43:55):
And I asked the Lord at onepoint so, lord, how free can I
be?
Because I'm like I don't wantto just go halfway, because I've
seen a lot of people just gohalfway and then they're in this
, stuck in this, this place, andI'm like, lord, I don't want to
do that.
So how free can I be?
So I'm like, either I, just I,you know, I guess, to a point I
(44:16):
was looking for a guarantee.
You know, if I'm going tocontinue, then I need to know.
So I'm like, Lord, how free canI be?
And the Lord said to me you'reas free as you want to be.
And I realized I'm the only onewho can hinder my freedom,
because the Lord's like hey, theworld is yours, you know.
And so, as I've pressed in andcontinue to press in, and same
(44:38):
with the ones that I've seen gothrough the program, yes,
sometimes it's hard, it is sohard, it's painful and you think
you're going to die and Ididn't and I'm here, but as you
continue to press in and I'vewatched those continue to press
in, the Lord is amazing.
And how he's rescued, how he'sdelivered, how he's redeemed,
(44:59):
how you know the places thathe's healed and how he's healed
them and how he's met them.
It's miraculous.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Well, and in essence, this struggle is not any
different than anyone else'sstruggle.
We, as believers in Christ, wehave to crucify our flesh daily.
It may be in a different form,and just because our struggles
some of our struggles are morehidden than the struggles of
others doesn't make them anybetter or easier.
(45:28):
And so you know, it's yourstory and it has a purpose, and
I believe that through whatyou're doing now, you're really
fulfilling a God-given purposefor your life, and so I commend
you for that, and I really myprayers are with you.
I appreciate this conversationvery much.
(45:49):
It leaves me excited andinspired, and I believe it will
do the same for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
Great, that's awesome .
Speaker 2 (46:00):
God does not make mistakes when he creates us.
Jeremiah 1.5 says Before Iformed you in the womb, I knew
you.
Before you were born, I set youapart.
It is the tragic consequencesof sin that creates confusion
and discord between us and God'splan for our lives.
(46:22):
If you or your loved one are onthe brink of despair today
because you long to be adifferent gender or you are
sexually attracted to people ofthe same sex but also want to
have a deep personalrelationship with Christ, please
know that the Lord is notindifferent to your struggle and
(46:42):
through him there is alwayshope, restoration and redemption
.
I am including in the show notesthe link to Portland Fellowship
, which is portlandfellowshipcom, as well as Kathy Grace's email
that she graciously madeavailable.
But what does this conversationmean for the body of Christ In
(47:06):
the Great Commission?
We are told to go to Jerusalem,which is your backyard, judea,
your community, and Samaria, thecommunity that you normally
don't fellowship with, thepeople that you may not
culturally accept.
And the only way we can beeffective messengers of Christ's
love and hope is by being ableto walk alongside with love and
(47:30):
compassion and truth.
I am very inspired by thisconversation and I hope you were
too Tune in next week foranother interview where I talk
with Bill Thrasher about theways to resurrect and empower
your prayer life.
Until next time, I'm Helen Todd.
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