Session 61: From Stigma to Support: A Journey of Change and Advocacy with Dr. Ashley Perkins

"True strength lies not in fitting into the mold, but in breaking it—embracing who you are and using your voice to uplift others."

Hello dreamers! It has been a long while! So glad to be back with you! I explain my absence in the session, so dont worry okay? 

What happens when a highly accomplished pharmacist faces mental health discrimination while trying to make a difference? Join us for a powerful conversation with Dr. Ashley Perkins, who reveals her inspiring journey from earning a Doctorate of Pharmacy at Butler University to navigating various roles in community pharmacies and eventually transitioning to teaching. Ashley bravely opens up about the hurdles she faced while volunteering with a youth organization, and how taking breaks and practicing self-care became essential in her life. Her story is not just about personal resilience but also underscores the crucial need for understanding and support in professional settings.

Ever faced discrimination in your workplace and wondered if speaking out could really make a difference? Dr. Perkins shares compelling anecdotes that highlight the emotional toll of discrimination, especially for those with disabilities or disorders. With a keen focus on autism advocacy, we discuss the importance of representing and overcoming stigmas, and how lived experiences can serve as a catalyst for change. Learn the importance of having a strong support system, like therapists and psychiatrists, and how standing up for what’s right, even when it’s hard, can pave the way for better treatment and greater accountability in professional environments.

Do you ever wonder how educators are adapting to meet the unique needs of students with autism or ADHD? Dr. Perkins gives us a fascinating look into evolving teaching methods in public schools, emphasizing trust-building and the Socratic method. The episode also explores the necessity of setting personal boundaries, managing social energy, and the powerful impact of noise-canceling headphones for people with sensory processing challenges.  This conversation with Dr. Perkins is sure to leave us inspired to embrace our own paths of resilience and growth.


Until next time, dreamers!

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Do you want to stay up to date with Dr. Perkins? Check out her social media links below!

Twitter (X): https://x.com/becauseimatter

NPO: https://www.wemattertoo.org/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
hello, hello.
If you're hearing this, this isnot a drill.
This is not a drill, this isthe real thing.
So again, forgive me if I'm alittle rusty at doing this, but
welcome back to all of youlovely people.
If you're hearing this, it is I,professor Liquid, and welcome
back to another exciting, verylong overdue conversation, or

(00:35):
conversation on the LiquidWisdom Podcast where we have
incredible stories shared byincredible people and, of course
, for all of you who've beenwondering where I've been in
these last however many months,I've been plugging away at grad
school and it is taking up a lotof my time, but I haven't
forgotten about you, so that'swhy I wanted to make sure I make

(00:55):
sure I came back with a, with abang, with pizzazz you can't
see my hands moving but I wantedto do all of that for you guys.
And, of course, you know wealways have incredible people
come on who are so willing andso gracious to share their
stories and have greatconversation, and today's guest
is all of that and more so.
She goes by Ashley Perkins,pharmd, phd, co-founder of we

(01:20):
Matter Too, inc.
Tedx speaker and award-winningmental health advocate An all
around awesome person.
Once you get to know her,please welcome Dr Ashley Perkins
.
How are you?

Speaker 2 (01:35):
I'm great.
How are you?

Speaker 1 (01:37):
I'm doing pretty good .
I'm doing pretty good, so gladto have you on.
I've been wanting to do thiswith you for a long time and I
know it was either my scheduleor other scheduling conflicts
and stuff, so I'm happy that youknow it happens at the right
time.
I always feel like when, whenpeople are able to come on, it
happens at the time it'ssupposed to, so I'm happy that
it's happening right nowabsolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
I was completely honored that you asked me to be
on, so I'm so glad to be sittingdown having this conversation
with you yeah, I feel it's beena long time coming.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, again, you know, dr a and I were speaking
before we started theconversation, y'all and I was
telling her.
I was like man, it's, it's, itwas.
It's been a long time coming.
I was really excited because,again, I know that we've always
had pleasant conversationsbehind the scenes, away from the
eyes of social media and stufflike that, and it's always been
a great conversation.
So I know this time with schooljust starting back, for a lot

(02:31):
of you around the country herein America is a busy time for
parents and educators and I knowyou're trying to juggle
schedules and stuff.
So, again, this is so awesome.
So thank you for being here.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, it's totally awesome.
So thank you for being here,absolutely yeah.
So, for all of those who arelistening, I hope you guys have
yourself a nice, lovely beverageor maybe something sweet to eat
, or comfortable couch or chair,wherever you're sitting or
enjoying this, and let's justhave an incredible conversation.
So, dr A, for those out therewho don't know who you are, just
tell us a little bit aboutyourself.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Sure, so I graduated in 2008 from Butler University
with my doctorate of pharmacy.
Nice Went straight from schoolinto practice.
I started working for CBS as apharmacist.
I worked on and off for themfor about 10 years as a
pharmacist.
I worked on and off for themfor about 10 years.

(03:27):
As a pharmacist, I worked withindependent pharmacies.
I also worked with a grocerystore chain at one point as well
.
My husband works for therailroad, so we get moved around
a lot.
So, myself being a communitypharmacist, it was easier for
moving because CVS is everywhere, so it made it a little easier

(03:51):
on me.
So when we moved from Marylandto West Virginia, that's when I
was like I'm burnt out, I needto do something different, and I
started looking for somethingdifferent, and that's when I
started teaching.
I fell in love with teachingstudents.
I taught at Marshall Universityfor a few years and then, when

(04:13):
we moved to Florida, I startedteaching pharmacy technician
students at our communitycollege and I absolutely loved
it.
In the process of all of this, Ivolunteered for a youth
organization for quite a fewyears and I was the leadership
seminar chair in 2019 and I wasdiscriminated against for my

(04:38):
mental health.
One of the board members tookit upon himself to question my
ability to lead the groupbecause I had decided to take
like a week off because I wasjust starting ADHD medication
for the first time and that wasa bit of a roller coaster and I

(04:59):
needed to take just a week offjust to one show all of the
volunteers that worked with methat it is okay to take a break.
Um, well, we need that break.
Um, I tell them all the timelike, if you're struggling, take
time off.
Uh, make sure you're takingcare of yourself.
Yeah, but I really wanted tomodel that because, as a leader,

(05:22):
I feel like I should not onlybe leading them but also
modeling the type of leadershipqualities you want in other
people.
So I thought the best way to doit was to model for them taking
time off and it being okay.
Well, one of the board membersgot ahold of my email and called

(05:43):
the board president and waslike you know, should we be
worried about this?
Blah, blah, blah.
And it was brought to myattention and I was like well,
first of all, it's nobody'sbusiness I can choose to share,
but nobody needs to know what'sgoing on.
If I feel like they need toknow more about what's going on,
I will tell you if it'snecessary.

(06:05):
And then the board presidenttold me that he couldn't stop
her from questioning me duringthe board meeting.
And I'm like, actually that'syour job as the board president.
To tell this person isinappropriate, but wasn't
willing to do that.
So during that board meetingthat night I had to act like
nothing was wrong, even though Iwas like popping mad.

(06:29):
Uh, because I knew it was wrongyeah, I knew it was wrong, uh,
but for some reason everybodyelse thought it was okay.
Um, so after that I found outshe'd done it to somebody else
in the past, so I felt the needto make sure I reported it
because I'm like this is clearlya behavior, this is a you know,

(06:49):
something that they'recontinuing repetitive behavior.
And if I don't say something,I'm complicit in the behavior.
So I need to say something.
So I reported it.
It did not go well.
I pushed harder, reported it.
It did not go well.

(07:09):
I pushed harder and, long storyshort, it was like eight months
of sheer terror, and you knowthe gaslighting, the emotional
abuse, the all of this stuff.
I got the retribution.
Finally, the board said Ieither resign or they're going
to vote me out.
I left.
So after I left, though, Irealized if this is happening to
me, a person full of privilege,it happens way too frequently,

(07:34):
and more than I realize assomebody who it just happened to
.
So I knew I had to do something, and I chose to use my platform
.
As a pharmacist, as somebodywho is a leader, who has been a
leader in an organization, Ifelt I needed to do something.
So that's when my friend Johnand I started we Matter Too.

(07:57):
It was literally the last wefilled out the paperwork, the
last week before the worldexploded in 2020.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
It's so long ago, but it seems like it just happened,
right, yeah, wow.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah continue.
And so we filled out thepaperwork right then and we were
hitting it right when peoplereally needed it.
And, you know, I have a lot ofpeople reaching out to me to ask
me you know how do I navigatethis?
These are feelings I've neverhad before and I realized we
just don't talk about thesethings enough.
And we need to be talking aboutthese things and we need to be,

(08:34):
you know, we need to be openand sharing, if we can, somebody
who has been in front of peopleenough that it doesn't bother
me to share.
And that's where I went on the,you know, the brigade of.
We've got to change this.
This isn't okay.
It happens too frequently, and Inever wanted people to go

(08:56):
through the same situation.
I went through without someonethere to support them.
You know, I had my partner, whois very supportive, but he
didn't know how to navigate thiseither, because neither one of
us had been in this situationbefore.
So I really wanted people toknow that there is somebody in
your corner.
Um, and I will.

(09:17):
I will be there every step ofthe way if you need somebody to
support you, because I don'twant people going through it
alone.
It's already bad enough to gothrough it, to have somebody
there to help you like, hey,make sure you're keeping a paper
trail, make sure you're doingthese things, things you
wouldn't necessarily think abouton your own, and especially
when you're in survival mode youdon't think about those things

(09:41):
every time.
So having another person therethat can kind of help you
through the process is reallywhy I wanted to do it, because I
couldn't let other people gothrough this situation without
at least somebody to talk to.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah, it's.
I mean thank you for sharingall that.
I mean it's, it's can be, itcan be pretty debilitating,
right To go into go into anenvironment where you're
expected to perform or upholdwhatever duties you have.
And then some people think,well, this kind of stuff doesn't
happen at the top.
Well, yeah, the further up yougo, the more susceptible you are

(10:17):
to that kind of experience,because the power differential
right and so a lot of peoplethat tend to look at folks who
navigate, having disorders or,you know, disabilities.
What have you?
And they think, oh well, thenmaybe they're not capable, or
maybe they're less than and tohave that sort of stigma against
you.
When you're walking, you'rewaking up like everyone else,

(10:40):
trying to make a difference.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know it's heartbreaking that you went
through that and it's also, atthe same time, very encouraging
that, despite that, you chose totake that experience and
provide a platform for other,for other people to stand on and
feel supported yeah, I, thetherapist I had when I was going
through that I mean both herand my psychiatrist like I would

(11:02):
not have gotten through itwithout both of them because
they were my rocks as I wastrying to get through this.
And that's what my therapistsaid to me, like as I was coming
out of the situation and I wasstarting that process of healing
, and she was like not everyonecan take a situation like this

(11:24):
and use it as fuel for somethingelse.
And I'm like, if I'm going togo through a situation like this
, as horrible as it was, inorder for me to heal, I got to
find a way to make it intosomething or use it as an
example for other people.
So they are aware, you know,yeah, it's illegal to

(11:45):
discriminate against somebody,but that doesn't mean people
aren't doing it all the time,yeah, exactly and getting away
with it, because people don'thold these people accountable.
And you know, and like you weresaying, like being up at the top
and going through a situationlike this, like I, I knew the
CEO of the organization.
Like I, because I had been withthe organization for so long and

(12:08):
I had held the positions I hadheld, I knew, like all the
people, and so it didn't evenprotect me and I think that's, I
think that's why I also hurt asmuch as it did, because I
expected them to do the rightthing, because I had been with
the organization for an extendedperiod of time, I had held

(12:31):
those positions, I trusted themto do the right thing.
And when you watch all thesepeople that you're supposed to
trust do these things to you, Imean I have massive trust issues
now because it's just like allthese people were supposedly
friends too, and then they justall, like, chose to do the

(12:52):
convenient thing instead ofdoing the right thing.
And I told them all, like Itold them, this is wrong.
Um, but I was just kind of youknow, you need to be quiet, you
need to fall in line, and andI'm like no, no, no, no, we're
talking about yeah yeah, we're.

(13:12):
When we're talking about humanbeings and the way we treat each
other.
No, like I can't sit down andjust be quiet and that's really
like the stepping stone for meto like I just don don't stay
quiet anymore, like if I seesomething going wrong, I'm going
to say something and I don'treally care who it is.
Like, you know, I will go upagainst whomever I need to go up

(13:36):
against, because it's wrong.
It's wrong and you know we needto be treating people better.
And we're in the situation Ifeel in this country because we
just choose not to say things,because it makes us
uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
So I've gotten very good at being uncomfortable
because I make other peopleuncomfortable on a regular basis
yeah, and from what I've, mytime and you know, getting to
know you over the last, that's acouple years now.
Right, my time getting over thelast couple years has been
based on now, of course, youractions.
Those are the things that youwant people to remember you by
what, you, what you chose to doand, of course, what you said.

(14:15):
But from what I've seen andmaybe, maybe I'm wrong, wrong
ash, but from what I've seen isyour presence.
You know, like this, this, youbeing around is like oh my god,
you gotta not do this becauseyou know ashley's gonna hold us
accountable.
She may, she may use herplatform to to put us on blast,
or she, she'll get in contactwith the proper people to try

(14:35):
and get restorative justice donefor those affected, uh, or use
her resources to help those whoare affected by the situation.
So I've seen you do a lot ofthose things, consistently and
genuinely.
So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
It's.
I mean, and maybe it's I, Ididn't know.
I was autistic when I wentthrough that situation.
I've been diagnosed since.
I went 38 years without it andthey say we're stubborn.
And I agree, like I am verystubborn.
And do I get stubborn on someof the wrong things?

(15:11):
I'm sure I do, but when I knowthat it's wrong I just can't, I
cannot sit there and keep mymouth shut.
When I know things are wrong, Itry, but it doesn't last very
long.
And I'm usually like voicingthose concerns because we can do

(15:34):
better for each other and it is.
It's possible to do.
But you have to get outside ofthinking about yourself and
thinking about other people inorder for you to realize that
people are just trying to dotheir best and it's easy to
judge.
And we judge because we'rehuman.
I mean, judging people is ahuman thing.

(15:55):
But you don't always have toact on those judgments.
You can choose to set thejudgment aside and then get to
know the person, meet them wherethey're at and just get to know
the person.
In that moment and it's eversince I started doing that I'm a
lighter person, like I don't,I'm not carrying around so much,
because I'm just truly morewilling to get to know the human

(16:22):
being.
Now I still don't like beingaround people, don't get me
wrong.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Like if I go to the grocery store.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
I want the grocery store to myself.
I don't want people.
No, like I don't want to bearound people.
I love helping people and Ilove standing up for people, but
I don't want to be sharing anelevator with people gotcha no
thanks yeah, um, that's thesensory thing, but yeah, I get

(16:51):
it because, like you know,because you walk like a grocery
store, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
I don't know because some grocery stores are louder
than others.
So I'm you don't have to reveallike where you go shop and
stuff, but I do know that somelike, let's say, like a, uh,
walmart, walmart, okay, yeah, sowalmart is, you can be loud
depending on what day you go,what time of day you go, right,
and then sometimes you go duringa certain time of day and
there's people just in theaisles not moving, and then it's

(17:16):
like I need to get to thepickles and you're standing
right in the middle like whyaren't you moving?
so yeah, so that that can be.
That can be very exhausting andnauseating, like, oh, I just
want to get in and get out.
I don't want to spend 20minutes of my 45 minute trip
just standing here waiting forsomething.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah so I've never been the type to just go into a
store and mill around like Iknow what I need I'm gonna go in
.
I'm gonna get what I need and Iwant to get out yeah.
I don't know how people justmill around stores.
I'm like no, nope, nope, nope.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
It's fine.
Actually, actually there was a.
There was a piece that youshared that was very thought
provoking, when you said thatyou were, you know, went and
found that you were diagnosedwith autism.
Right, and just, I feel like,just overall, from what you've
been sharing since we startedour conversation, there's been
this idea of stigma versus, youknow, taking the time to learn

(18:14):
about a person.
Right, so you are someone thatjust recently found out.
You know for a little while nowthat you are someone with
autism.
However, you also have a PhD,because there's this stigma that
when someone has autism, thatapparently they're not as
capable or sometimes it affectstheir intelligence.

(18:37):
But again, even if it's adisorder that some people aren't
familiar with, it affectspeople differently.
So, what has it been for you tohave the platform that you have?
And then, of course, you'renavigating these mental
disorders and you're breakingthe mold in terms of what people

(18:57):
perceive as a person with suchthings, versus what you present
when you do the things that youdo.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, I know I've met a lot of young people too,
because I teach high.
I teach in high school, soright, um, when these young
people see that there issomebody with adhd and autism, I
deal with, you know, anxietytoo because of all those years
of undiagnosed autism and theysee that representation.

(19:26):
It means so much to thembecause they're like I can do
this too, because themisperception a lot of times is
that autism means we can't,we're not intelligent or we're
not.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
we can't learn Right.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
And it's not.
It's all about like the socialstuff and like the
misinterpretation of certainthings.
And for me, I process a lotslower than others.
So, like I, if I'm given thetime to process, I'll catch up.
But asking me to do it in themoment, more times than not, I

(20:03):
can't, because because I'm likeI need time to think about it
first.
Um, and, and this in this dayand age when everybody's like
quick, quick, quick, fast, fast,fast, I just I can't, like I'll
blank slate.
It's like I've never had anexperience before in my life and
I just literally blank slate.
And I'm like you know, I know Ihave experiences to share with

(20:25):
you, but I literally can't thinkof any right now, so you're
just gonna have to let me getback to you, um, and so I don't
know what I would have done,necessarily, with that
information in my earlier yearsright um, because, well, I just
didn't know but it makes senseto me on why I struggled more at

(20:47):
learning certain things over myclassmates, like I would sit
there and be like this comes soeasy for most of you.
Like I don't get it, like why doI have to work so hard?
Right, and it makes sense nowwhen I did the very first um the
self.
There's a few online that youcan do where they're like just

(21:09):
screening tests to let you knowif you could possibly be
autistic, and I mean I was rightup there with all the other
autistic adults and, um, but itreally like just reading the
questions it was a big lightbulb moment for me.
It was like my whole life wasexplained in these

(21:29):
questionnaires and I was like,oh, that's why I do that or
that's why I can't do that.
And also watching my son.
We're very much alike.
Him and I are pretty much thesame person.
He's just pint-sized form andhe is watching him and how he

(21:51):
asks questions and wants toclarify and how sometimes he
misses things.
That's where I really startedto pick up on a lot of it,
because I was like, well, I dothat too and that's a very
autistic thing to do so.
Maybe that's a possibility.
So I'm glad I went through theprocess as somebody who's in the

(22:17):
medical profession.
Going through the process formyself was something I needed
for myself, but for anybodylistening, self-diagnosis or
self-ID is 100% valid.
It is so hard to get in to getan assessment done.
It's also, especially in the UF, costs a lot of money sometimes

(22:41):
to get those things.
Yeah.
So I think with the tools thatare available now, you can get a
pretty good idea of if you'rein that spectrum.
So that, yeah, so that you atleast can start to navigate your
life differently from thethings that you're learning from

(23:01):
the process, if you cannot getthat official diagnosis because
it's just not obtainable for you.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, the resources for mental health.
You know assessment, diagnoses,even treatment.
You know therapy treatment.
You know therapy.
Yeah, I don't have exactnumbers in front of me but I
know we spend a good penny.
But it was a comparison to theamount of money we spend in
military defense, cancerresearch, that sort of police,
yeah, yeah.
So there's a lot of differentthings, so we're not not

(23:29):
spending enough in terms of justproviding the breaking ground
for, for resources and such um.
I was curious.
I was curious, actually, andfeel free to answer or not.
But once you went through, ofcourse you know, with the
self-diagnoses, right, and you,and you found that okay, that's
starting to make sense.
Okay, Now that tracks why youknow I do X, Y, Z.

(23:49):
And then, of course, when youwent through the process of
getting the you know thediagnoses by a licensed
clinician or wherever you went,Tell me about that process.
Was that liberating, Knowingthat?
Because, again, because there'sa stigma that a lot of folks
with autism struggle with.
They think that something'swrong with them, like they're
defective or that sort of thing.
And then, once you found out,like no, you're just as capable,

(24:11):
just as smart as yourcontemporaries.
You just have to navigate lifein a very unique way to arrive
at the destination, the same wayyour peers do.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, and that's really how I see it.
I just see it as I and the way Iexplain accommodations is we're
starting two miles behind thestarting line, right, yeah,
everybody else is up at thestarting line.
We're two miles back and wehave that two miles to make up
before we're up miles back andwe have that two miles to make
up before we're, you know, upwith everybody else.
But like accommodations,knowing just the knowledge of

(24:46):
I'm autistic, right, like thatbrings me closer to the starting
line because I now can navigateor, you know, accommodate
myself in certain ways, thatgets me up to everybody else.
And this is why I'm just a bigadvocate for accommodations for
all people, because everyone canbenefit from accommodations,

(25:13):
but they're really helping thosewho need them get up with
everybody else, and so that wecan give everybody the same
playing field, just and it's notto get anybody ahead, they're
not ahead, they're alreadybehind.
So like it's just gettingeverybody up to speed, and in my
classroom and in my curriculumI have built all of the

(25:36):
accommodations into it soeverybody benefits from it, wow.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
I was going to ask you about that too.
That's so awesome.
I'm sorry, continue.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
I've worked extremely hard at making sure that
everything is done so thateverybody gets it.
So, like my quizzes, I givequizzes every two weeks.
I don't do a midterm and afinal, because that's like
anxiety riding as it is.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Oh goodness, gracious Heck yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah.
So what I did is, instead of amidterm, I give a 20 question
quiz every two weeks I don't dopop quizzes, I don't do any of
that stuff and then they all getan hour.
So you have a full hour to takea 20 question quiz.
I don't ever take it away.

(26:24):
You can use as much of it or aslittle of it as you want, and
if you get done in 15 minutes,you got 45 minutes to sit and
chill because I'm not going totake it away.
They get.
I give them four to five hourson their final.
Um.
It's 150 questions, but I givethem plenty of time and they can
take as much time as they want.

(26:45):
Um, my syllabi, I've made it sothat because, let's be real, we
don't all read them they'reboring.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
There's lots of words in them.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Okay, I look at boring documents like that and I
instantly get bored I hear youit's a little tedious.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
I'm not gonna lie, I'm in grad school.
Okay, let me just find out whatthe assignments are and when
dates are.
I'll just I'll take it piece bypiece, but yes, and it is so
it's a lot, so what I?

Speaker 2 (27:15):
do in the in the front is there's a table of
contents, but then the next pageis a small summary of each
section and then what page theycan go to.
That way they know where theinformation is and if they want
to read more they can go findthat part of the syllabi as I
read it.
So those are just a coupleexamples of the things I let

(27:37):
them choose.
If they take an electronic testor if they take a, I print it
out and they do it on paper.
They get to make that choice asa class.
If one person wants to chooseto take an electronic one, I
don't care.
It's literally a copy pasteinto whatever and I can give it
to them.
That way.
Accommodations are truly aboutthe students and it's what they

(28:00):
need, not me.
I find a way to accommodate it.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
I think that's wonderful and thank you.
The thing is, I feel likeeducators.
it's not an easy career track togo into, but it's also, in my
opinion, it's one of the.
It's adjacent to the healingprofessions.
You know, like, of course, ifyou've been pharmaceuticals and
you know therapy, you knowdoctors, nurses, that sort of
stuff.
Educators are right there, onthat fringe line, in my opinion,

(28:27):
between um, healing professionsand just important professions,
because, again, you'recultivating.
You know differently of course,but you're cultivating in a
different way, like you'rehelping shape the mind of the
next generation and you knowit's, it's very interesting.
Growing up, you know, going inthe public school system, those
it used to be this at one point,this kind of universal way of

(28:47):
just teaching every student andoh, yeah, well, that that kid,
he or she, you know they, theydon't get it, you know.
But then if you sit down withthat child and you find out
what's going on, like, oh well,oh, I didn't know, well, this is
like early 2000s.
So like, well, didn't know youwere dealing with autism, I know
you're dealing with depression,it could be many different
things contributing to thestudent's ability to, you know,

(29:10):
pay attention in class or tounderstand the concept of what
they're learning, and so thefact that you, that's a lot of
work actually to have aclassroom full of kids who all
have unique needs and differentstrengths and places they can
improve, and then to accommodatethat across the boards where
everyone feels comfortable,going at their own pace.
Because that's what it's about,especially for children, you

(29:31):
know, who have, you know, autismor ADHD.
It's like, okay, you don't wantto overwhelm yourself, you'll
get.
There's not, you don't have tobe perfect at it.
Get to a place of comfort foryourself and once you get
comfortable, I assure youeverything else is just going to
come so much more easy yep, yep, and you know, and I always
tell them I'm like I don't knowwhat you need.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
You have to tell me and so and that's hard for a lot
of students because of thatpower differential and I totally
get that and I tell them thevery first time, like we're
talking about stuff, I'm like Iknow I have to earn your trust
and I get that and that isperfectly fine.
I will do what I can to earnyour trust so that you can come

(30:17):
to me and talk to me.
You know I can tell you all ofthese things, of all the things
I've done in the past, but itdoesn't mean much to you because
you've not seen it.
So I will prove to you, like Ihave proved to other people,
that you can come to me and Iwill help you.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
I'm not going to do it for you.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
Like you're going to come and ask me a question.
I'm going to look at you and belike okay, what do you think?
The socratic way of okay, rightbecause I'm not just gonna tell
you the answer, because we'renot testing to know if I know it
, I know it.
We're testing and learning.
Actually, they still do thatthey still.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
They're still trying to be slick as a teacher
absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
So we?
I look at that, like, hey, youtell me how you'd start and then
we'll talk it through.
Or I'm like, okay, let's seewhat if we can find the answer,
and we go to the book and wefind the answer together,
because I'm not teaching themanything by just telling them
the answer.
I mean, we all know, I know theanswers, I'm the teacher.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
Right right, right right.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
And I've been doing it for a long time.
So, like we wanna make sureyou're learning it, and they
always just kind of look at meand they'll be like I know
you're gonna ask me what I thinkand this is what I think, and
I'm like, well, hey, then Idon't have to ask.
You already know what I'm goingto ask.
So let's just skip it.
But you know, I truly enjoy mystudents.

(31:46):
High schoolers are hilarious.
I would never want to go backto high school, but, yeah, but.
And high school is verydifferent than when we were in
school.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, I'm class of 07.
So, yeah, that was.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, I graduated in 02 from high school.
Oh cool.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Okay, right around that same time, then Okay, cool
Old old.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
When I told them it was 22 years ago that I
graduated from high school, alltheir eyes like bugged out and
I'm like, I'm like I know, Iknow, um, but they are um, but
they, they keep me on my toesand they teach me just as much
as I teach them every year andthat's what I enjoy the most
about teaching is that the stuffI learn from them, um, because

(32:35):
they are I.
You don't have to learn frompeople who are just like you.
You can learn from alldifferent types of people, and
that's another reason why wematter too.
It's all about the peer supportand the lived experience,
because not everybody's going tobe a medical professional, but
they have experiences that theycan share, and those are just as

(32:55):
valuable to help other peopleunderstand what they're going
through.
They can share, and those arejust as valuable to help other
people understand what they'regoing through.
Um, and anybody can helpanother person just by, you know
, being a good support,listening and sharing um,
commiserating together, um,because all of that means
something to people.
Um, and I think that's what isthe most important is that you

(33:15):
can learn something fromeverybody If you take the time.

Speaker 1 (33:20):
No, no, you're absolutely right.
Knowledge can come from manydifferent places.
And I think when you are, Iguess, it's more of a.
It takes a while to get thatwired, you know.
But once you get into a placewhere you say I'm always
learning, I never want to limitmyself on what I can learn.
I don't want to always be thesmartest person in the room,
limit myself on what I can learn, I don't want to always be the
smartest person in the room, soyou're going to.
I think it creates this sort ofnatural ability to just, you

(33:45):
know, be a sponge and absorb asmuch as you can, cause I don't
want to know everything, I wantto learn as much as I can.
And you know, it's like, hey,I'm gonna go to.
And then, of course, it'salways fun when I can go and say
, hey, I want to learn how to dopottery, so I'm going to go
speak to a potter and learn howto make pottery or whatever it
is.
And so, because everythingmatters, this is a wonderful

(34:06):
thing.
Thank you, ashley.
So everything matters in thegrand scheme of things, right?
So I'm actually, I'm actuallyreally I wanted to talk about a
little bit more, right?
So you're, you're, you're in po.
Um, you know, we matter too.
I'm I'm really impressed withwhat you guys have done, you
know, and since, since itsinception, I've been, I've been
watching, I've been observingand stuff right.

(34:26):
Um, so I just want to ask, like, what was, like the, the
pivotal moment that led you tocreating those things?
Was it the story?
Was it from that story when youwas dealing with the?

Speaker 2 (34:36):
yeah, yeah, so I actually, about a month before I
officially left theorganization, I was so angry
like raging mad and I needed toget like it out.
And that's when I startedwriting my book, because I was
like, you know, I need to getthis out and I think the only
way to do it is to write it alldown, and so I started with that

(35:01):
one first.
Um, because when I write, Idon't write.
I don't write in order, I jumpall over creation like it's a
journey I don't have yeah, Idon't have like when, pete, when
I try to explain to people howI write, they're all like huh
and I'm, it all works out, youjust have to trust the process.
But I wrote that first and ithad to go through.

(35:23):
I had to edit it hardcorebecause it was, it was angry,
and but I titled the book.
I matter too, because when Iwent through that situation, I
felt like, even though thesepeople had known me for so long
and they knew all of theseaccomplishments, I had all these
things I had done like it.

(35:44):
In an instant, all of theselabels became what mattered more
than myself and all of thethings that I had showed them
over the years.
With one moment the mentalhealth issues, the ADHD,
whatever it was that was takingthe precedent and I was like

(36:04):
confused.
I was like I've had thesethings forever.
Nothing has changed about me,but why is this now the focus?
And so I matter too.
We too.
It's all about us, the humanbeing that actually really truly
matters.
We all have all these things.

(36:26):
Who's you know whether they'regood, whether they're bad, and I
have plenty of both.
And those things, yes, they'repart of me, but I choose.

(36:49):
What defines the person that Iam, and that's why I matter too.
And then the we matter too when, when we started the
organization, because we wantpeople to feel the same way.
We want them to feel like theyare the person that matters, not
all the other stuff that mightbe there yeah, no, it's, it's

(37:10):
great to, it's great with, withwhat you're doing.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
You know, because, again, there's a lot of people I
mean they can be, these couldbe strangers you see, on this on
the street park or you knowgrocery store, or whatever it
could be these are, there's alot of individuals out there.
You don't know their storybecause, again, it's not like we
pass on our foreheads or it'son some sort of jumbo trying to
above us.
However, there's a lot of folkswho we pass by every day and

(37:35):
never know what sort of internalstruggles that they're having,
the those feelings and thoughtsof thinking that it must be true
, since no one cares, I'm notworth anything, no one dares ask
how I'm doing, or no one knowsthe sort of pain I'm going
through.
So, seeing you know your, yourorganization and then, of course
, you, you know folks.

(37:56):
Whether I want to talk to youabout in a minute, you know your
book, it's it can.
It's almost like breaking thechains that can bind you to a
place where you can just keeppulling you back back into the,
your darkness, into your pain,and say, wait, I'm not by myself
.
There's other people like methat have gone through similar
experiences.

(38:16):
I'll be from different walks oflife, of course, and maybe even
culture or location, but myexperience isn't just me going
through this, other people too.
And hey, this person you knowusing you, for example wow,
she's gone through a lot of thisstuff too, and look at all the
work she's put in to navigate itand to transform it.

(38:36):
You know thatpost-traumaticatic growth, as a
lot of people allude to, whereyou took a very painful
situation and you chose tobecause you could have gone
another way.
You could have gone a differentpath again you were angry you
know, naturally right, that'snormal to feel that way.
However, you could have chosento keep going further, beyond
that anger, and do some otherstuff too.
However, you chose to after thesubsided, you chose to

(38:57):
transform all of that and youcreated this.
That is a very beautiful thingto see.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Thank you.
Thank you.
It takes and there's still,like I'm still grieving that
past me because I mean shewasn't a healthy person.
Let's just be honest.
I mean I do miss working 80hours a week, you know and being
able to.
Well, because I worked a 40hour job plus the 40 hours a

(39:24):
week of volunteering.
So, like you know how I everyday, I don't know, but I can't,
I can't do it now, Burt myselfout very largely, oh yeah self
out very largely.
But you know I don't want to bethat person anymore because I
know what that person didn'tknow and also went through and I

(39:50):
prefer this person because I'ma recovering people pleaser and
I used to let people walk allover me and now boundaries are
very much a big thing in my life.
That came out of this and a lotof people don't like it, but I
just don't care because that's agood point right, what is it?

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Oh man, because I just want a real quick
interjection.
So the thing is, I want to leteveryone know out there
listening Boundaries are naturaland inherent for every human
being that walks this planet.
You are natural and inherentfor every human being that walks
this planet.
You're not supposed it's okayto tell someone no, it's okay to
say hey, I can't do this rightnow and you can prioritize and
make time for the things thatyou can.

(40:27):
And most of the time whenpeople get upset with you having
a boundary, typically it meansthat they don't have a healthy
idea of what boundaries are andthey don't have a healthy level
of respect boundaries are andthey don't have a healthy level
of respect for you, because therational person would say oh
okay, that's fine, we canreconvene at a later time,
totally okay, yeah people callme out all the time and that's

(40:49):
fine because that's what I wantthem to do.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I don't know if I'm violating your boundary.
If you don't tell me and what?
If I do it again, then that'son me.
But the reactions I get topeople when I impose, when I say
this is my boundary and I'm notwilling to you know, change
right yeah they get real nastyand I'm like, okay, that's fine,

(41:12):
like I don't think you'resomebody that needs to be in my
life.
Um, I've almost quit my jobbecause I want to be able to
advocate for myself in the way Ifeel is necessary and I've had
that, you know.
And I'm like, well, I can quit.
If we can't come up with acompromise, I can quit.
And luckily, because my boss isfabulous, we came up with a

(41:36):
compromise that worked for bothof us good, um, where I could
still have very firm boundary,but I was also not stepping over
a boundary she didn't she had.
So you know it's.
It's all about that, likefiguring out those ways to to

(41:57):
keep your boundaries intactwithout compromising yourself
right and not feeling guilty foralso having them.
Um, that's hard for me because Ifeel guilty, because I feel
like I should be doing all thethings for all the people at all
times.
Um, even my, my partner wouldbe like you literally will do
anything for anyone to your owndetriment.

(42:19):
Um, and that's how I used to be.
I'm not that anymore because Ican't.
I can't do that anymore, but,um, it's definitely a process
learning how to keep boundariesin place but worth it for sure.

Speaker 1 (42:34):
Absolutely yeah, especially when you mentioned
that the piece you mentionedabout being a recovering people
pleaser yeah, those are the onesthat the piece you mentioned
about being a recovering peoplepleaser yeah, those are the ones
that I've observed in my timebeing out in the field.
In the short time I have beenout, there are the ones that you

(42:56):
know it's really hard becausethat has been predominantly the
system they have lived under forso long and learn.
The difference between this isyour trauma responding to the
situation, not your feelings.
Your feeling says, hey, you aretired, you don't want to do
this right now, that's fine.
Your trauma is saying, but if Isay no, then that must mean

(43:18):
therefore I'm a bad person.
So we have to make get into themiddle and there and get there's
this process where you feelthis, therefore, think this.
You have to unwound that andcreate a brand new one to where
you say saying no is naturallyokay.
I shouldn't.
I don't have to feel bad forprioritizing my well-being over

(43:39):
something that could cause mefurther harm or lead to burnout,
which comes to stages you knowor you know something else.
So, yeah, boundaries is a verybeautiful thing to see someone
and I'm glad that you have thatfor yourself too.
Learning that you know it'sempowering, right.
It's like wow, I can say no.
I can say no.
Absolutely, it is a fantasticfeeling yeah, yeah, and I also

(44:04):
saw from your book as well, um,that it's.
It's speaking of powerful tools.
It is a very, you know, it's avery powerful tool for, you know
, self-empowerment, and I knowthat you mentioned, you know,
early about, you know whatinspired you to write that book.
Uh, so, looking back on it now,like, since you know you've
done the, the press runs and youknow it's still out there for

(44:26):
many people, which I will plugat the end of this, by the way,
thank you yes absolutely.
Uh, what?
What do you feel is the mostimportant message you want to
give to the reader?
You know, once they, you know,want to pick up your book, and
they start going on that journey.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Well, it's not a self-help book?

Speaker 1 (44:44):
No, of course not yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
Like I make that very clear because I don't.
I didn't want it to be aself-help book because it's my
story, it's what I've gonethrough the good, the, the bad,
the ugly.
I don't sugarcoat it because Ithink too much of the time we do
sugarcoat them and when peoplego through the situations

(45:08):
they're like this is reallycrappy, like this sucks, and I
wanted people to see that, yeah,it does, and it needed to be
done in the way I did it, whichhas all the sharp edges and no
glitter and all of that stuff.
Um, because none of it wasenjoyable to go through.

(45:29):
Um, but I want people to readit and to see that, a you're not
alone and to see that, a you'renot alone and b I've gotten
through it.
I still struggle and it's notperfect, but I did survive it
all and it is survivable.

(45:50):
Um, when you're going through it, you don't feel like there's a
light at the end of the tunnel.
It is really hard to seeyourself outside of it.
So when you're in the thick ofit all, I think to have just
either one or two or somethingout, one or two people or
anything out there to remind youthat hey, there's a reason I'm

(46:15):
here and I need to try to focuson myself and getting myself
through this moment in time,because once I'm outside of it,
it'll be okay.
It doesn't feel okay and it'sokay for it to not feel okay.
It doesn't need to be pretty,it doesn't need to be well done,
it doesn't need to be pretty,it doesn't need to be well done.

(46:38):
And I think that's what I wantto show is that my mess it's a
mess and there's nothing prettyabout it.
But once you're outside of it,so many good things can come
after it's over.
And that's why I just you readso much stuff and it's so

(46:58):
sugarcoated and I'm almost like,is this actually what happened?
Like, is this the reality?
Because I think that you'reafraid to tell us what actually
happened and that was.
I'm not scared to show that Ihave.
I've gotten a DUI, I had issueswith drinking.
I, you know, had to get soberfor myself.

(47:21):
I've been through back surgery.
I've been through mygrandfather dying, um when I was
in pharmacy school, um formalpractice.
So like I've gone through a lotof different things that most
people look at me and they'relike how are you still here?
And sometimes I wonder the samemyself.

(47:41):
But you can.
You can do it if you try andyou can choose not to try like.
I'm not going to judge you fornot wanting to try, because
there were plenty of times Igave up myself and that's OK to
like.
You know, we can only be soresilient so much of the time

(48:05):
and you can't always feel likefighting.
And I think people, if you'regoing to fight, you also need to
know that sometimes you've gotto give up too, because it's got
to be like kind of a balance,even though it doesn't feel like
a balance, that picking andchoosing of battles, because

(48:27):
sometimes you are too exhaustedto do anything or to fight, and
that is okay.
To just stop and just rest andallow yourself to be not okay.
And I think a lot of timeswe're always like it's like that
, suck it up and deal and I'mlike but I don't want to suck it
up and deal, so I'm going tojust hide my room for a day.

(48:50):
I'll come out in a day.
Just give me my 24 hours to bea complete waste of space I
think, um, I think it's, I thinkwhat you?

Speaker 1 (48:58):
that's a very thoughtful piece there, because
I think there is sometimes thisidea that you're, you're this
machine right and you just haveto keep going and keep going and
going.
However, the machine we havebetween our ears, right, our
brain you know this thingthere's a limit to his upper
limit, to what it can endure,because there's so much
information going through,there's so many memories and

(49:20):
feelings that it's processing,so you can redline like you can
redline like you can redline andyou'll break down quickly,
right?
So so I love the fact that yousaid like hey, just be strategic
in what battles you want tofight.
Hey, I don't make.
This isn't worth my energy.
I don't want to deal with thisperson doing this on social
media or this person saying thisacross the street.

(49:40):
I'm just going to just focus onwhat I can right now and if it
it still bothers me, later onmaybe I'll come back to it when
I'm already taking care of a fewother things, but I'm going to
be strategic and pick and choosewhat battles I want to fight.
I having those tough days Ithink I made a post about this
the other day.
I was like some days are tough,some days you're just not going
to be a hundred percent.

(50:00):
You know, mentally oremotionally it could be a, it
could be something from yourpast, it could be trauma, it
could be something maybe youhaven't done inventory to make
time for in a long time and yourbody's reminding you like, hey,
there's this thing that wehaven't dealt with.
Can we spend today processingthis?
And I love that piece aboutyou're not going to always be so

(50:22):
resilient.
It's a skill and it takes timeto do that and so the best way
to do that is by having those,like you said, those 24 hours
right when he's.
Like man, today I just feellike crap.
I'm just going to navigate this.
I'm not going to run from it,I'm going to navigate through
this and whatever it is I'mfeeling.
I'm just going to let myselfsail through those waters and
then eventually I'll hit theshore and I'll say, okay, and

(50:45):
you're better off for doing that.
And again, it's very important,especially for young folks too.
Man.

Speaker 2 (50:51):
It's just you teach high school.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
So yeah, this is very important for that age.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
I am frequently reminding them that they aren't
supposed to know stuff and thatthey are supposed to be making
mistakes, and that they aresupposed to be making mistakes
and that they are not going tobe perfect and they need to
accept it.
Um, because many of themespecially when they're in my
class because we're doingpharmacy related we're I'm

(51:15):
teaching them about pharmacy ashigh schoolers, so you know
they're all very bright and Ihave to remind them that this
might be the first time.
You don't get an A, and it'sokay.
I'm going to support you.
I'm going to be here to helpyou through it, but this isn't

(51:36):
easy.
It's not supposed to be easy,and you're not going to be good
at it, and that is okay, becauseI'm here to support you so you
can get good at it.
Um and so a lot of times I'mhaving these conversations with
them over and over again,because they feel like if they
fail a test, then it's the endof the world and I'm like but

(52:00):
it's not.
They don't put your GPA on yourdiploma.
Your diploma looks the same asthe next person's diploma,
that's true.
So you know.
Instead, let's have you learnthe material and get to be able
to utilize the material, insteadof us so focused on our grades.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
Yeah, I love that.
I'm only as good as I ambecause I've failed so many
times, that's how you learn.
Absolutely good, as I am,because I've failed so many
times.
That's how you learn is success?
I've learned in my in my adultlife that success is what you
success comes from.
All the times you had to goback to the drawing board and
come back.
Oh, this tweaking things is alittle bit more after failing,
because success is a result ofappreciating all the hard work

(52:40):
and all your failures.
The learning comes from thesetbacks and the things that you
know you.
Oh, I didn't know that, oh, Igot that wrong.
That's where you learn and it'sa trial and error thing, man.
That's why I think, for a lotof you know again, for your
students too you know idea oflearning.
Think of it like art.
You're it's, you know it's ablank slate and everything, no

(53:02):
matter if it's a mistake or youdidn't mean to put that here.
All that goes into thiswonderful mosaic that is your
journey of learning.
And just because you fail a testdoesn't mean you are a failure.
That those are, those are notthe same.
There's no correlation betweenthe two.
There's a lot of successfulpeople who landed in a good
place where they feelcomfortable in their life.

(53:22):
I'm sure you can speak to thisas well Again, what you've
accomplished where, yeah, Ididn't.
I wasn't top of my class.
You know, when I graduated, Iwasn't always the smartest
person.
Things happen.
I made it through, though youknow I've had these setbacks and
that's that's really okay,absolutely yeah.
So I just wanted to ask you so Iknow you mentioned earlier was
like man I used to do that's abad to you, sis.

(53:46):
That's a long, that's a lot ofwork, man.
Um, so how do you find balancenow?
Because you know, I know youhave like your professional
things that you're doing, youknow, with the speaking
engagements, and I know you'reteaching the young ones, but
also you know, you know you havea family and you like the idea
of having a less hectic schedulenow compared to before.
You still work a lot, but it'slike it's not chaotic as it was

(54:09):
before.
So how do you find, how do younavigate that now, at this stage
in your life, trying to makethat time to say I matter too
Relax?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yeah, I, you know, I just go day by day, honestly,
like I don't plan.
I just go day by day, honestly,like I don't plan.
Like I plan things out like ifI'm gonna go do a social event
with, like, my son and my, mypartner and we're gonna go like
to a sporting event or whateverthe case may be, and it's gonna
take my social battery, um, Imake sure I play.

(54:39):
I like store up social capitalso that when I go out I don't
get too overwhelmed.
I don't.
I don't go any place lastminute anymore.
So, like if my son and mypartner decide that they want to
go someplace last minute, Igenerally don't go, because in
the past I would have forcedmyself to go, gotten overwhelmed

(55:02):
halfway through it and thenwanted to leave because I'm not
having fun, or I'm just no funand I make everybody else not
have fun because I'm not havingfun.
So I just don't do it anymoreand we plan ahead.
That way I know what's going on, and then I have a list of

(55:22):
things I need to get done and Iget them done when I get them
done, okay, and that is prettymuch how I navigate life now,
because I used to be that personwho had to like plan everything
and like have all these to-dolists and all these like things,
and I had to get them done in aspecific order.
And a boss once said to me youdon't get extra credit for

(55:45):
turning it in early.
And and that literally likechanged my world because I was
like, why am I gettingeverything done early?
Nobody cares?
I'm like, why am I, why am Ipushing myself so hard to get it
done early?

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Right.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
So, I stopped and if I get it done on the day it's
due, it's done on the day it'sdue and that's it like yeah, and
so I just I stopped pressuringmyself and, to be honest, I
actually work less because I doit that way, because I sit down,

(56:21):
I get stuff done in that mylittle hyper focus moment.
Right, I get the stuff donethat needs to be done right and
then I'm done.
I I don't need to waste timedoing anything else.
Um, running the non-profit withmy friend john.
Yes, we are on the same pageand we get to run it the way we
want to and we choose to do itbecause we're humans.

(56:45):
If somebody needs time, theytake time.
If we all need to take time, weall need to take time.
Things will get done when theyare supposed to get done and
that's how we do everything,because I refuse to force people
to work themselves into theground.

(57:05):
When we're getting, we are.
We might be moving slower thanother people, but guess what?
We're moving in our timelineand that's all that matters.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, everyone's timeline is unique.
We're all connected, right, butwe're all.
There's no overlap.
Sometimes you cross paths withpeople and they can go with you
for you know, a time being, orthey can go with you at a moment
you didn't expect it and be andbecome such a wonderful, you
know, blessed experience, youknow for them.
And some, some people come infor a reason.

(57:34):
They teach you something like,oh, about yourself or about the
world, and you take thatexperience and if it was a
negative one or uncomfortableone, rather, you know you heal
from it in your time because,again, like you said, grieving
that part of yourself before orin our conversation, you know,
grief is some people and andthis is, this is the part about
grief I want everyone tounderstand, and maybe you agree

(57:56):
with this there's no timetableon it.
Whatever it, whatever it isthat you have grieved, whether
it be the loss of a friend, arelationship, parents, whatever
that has left something of amark on you in terms of the
impact that you feel from it youget to a place in your own time

(58:16):
where you are able to bettermanage it.
I don't ever think everyone'sover it Like, oh, I'm over
losing my mom, you know, or I'mover losing my dad, or whatever
it is.
I'm just in a better, I'm in aplace where I can better manage
it now.
And again, sometimes it could bea song, it could be a sense, it
could be a food, it could bemany things where it's like go

(58:40):
back to that moment.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
It was like, wow, yeah it's a part of you, you
know and that's okay.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
I remember someone very famous speaking about grief
and they spoke about it as it'slike wandering through a forest
.
You know you're wanderingthrough a forest and one day you
may stumble out into thatclearing and that's where,
that's that space where you'reable to better manage.
You know, you agree, yeah, butthe whole time you're still on a
journey.

(59:07):
So yeah yeah, so yeah, pleasetake the time for yourself y'all
.
Please do it's, it's very, it'svery important.
I also know I'm gonna keep this.
I'm gonna make sure I take noteof this too.
So if I ever want to go out andsocialize with you, I'll make
sure I ask you in advance, sothat way you can plan for it,
because I'm not gonna say I'mnot gonna say, hey, ash, I'm in
town, let's go out for it, let'sgo out for drinks and wings or
something it's like, uh, no manyou know I do a lot less things,

(59:34):
but I have to say like I, I ama happier person.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Yeah, um, my anxiety used to be so bad.
I would deal with anxiety on adaily basis and now that I take
care of my sensory needs and Idon't like expend social capital
when I don't need to, I I dealwith anxiety maybe once a week.
That's good maybe once a month,like I used.

(01:00:01):
I mean, I have to say, thereare literally like weeks that go
by and I have none, because I'mnavigating the world in a way
that is much better for me rightand so.
I mean people people can tell meI'm doing it wrong all they
want.
I know I feel better, so Ireally don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah because it's just a madness, right.
Anxiety, that's the thing man.
Anxiety man when it, when itgets, it can be crippling man.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
So for you, like what do you feel it physically for
you when you do have a moment,my stomach I feel like my
stomach's gonna explode, like Ifeel it in the pit of my stomach
and then like it just grows tothe point that, like the
pressure in my body is so muchof my just grows to the point t
in my body is so much lik rip myskin off and run commercial

(01:00:52):
during the pan of the pandemic.
I know w, but at the beginningum w so many feelings she woul
the feelings like came fl outyeah that's how I feel.
Like I feel like the pressurejust builds up and then if I get
so bad, like it's a panicattack, like panic attacks will

(01:01:12):
put me down like I can't move,like I get almost catatonic
because I get so likeoverwhelmed with everything, um,
but knock on wood, I have.
I have not had anything thatbad in quite a while.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
That's awesome.
Yeah it's serious, man, it's areal thing.
Y'all Anxiety is real.
I know some people can co-opt aterm sometimes and then some
people will again have that sortof negative sentiment.
But remember, it isn't a DHM.
For a reason it's a real thingthat people go through and I can
tell you when you see someoneyou mentioned panic attacks, man

(01:01:49):
, seeing someone feel likethey're being crushed or they're
trapped and they don't knowwhat to do, and then they're
sweating or they're shaking soviolently because their body is
in shock from all the signalsthat their brain is receiving
and giving out and even like youmentioned, you know that that
sort of catatonia brand justneeds to shut down.
it's like a hard reset, like Ican, whatever it is, we just

(01:02:10):
can't do it right now, but wejust gotta shut down and my
hardware and my software say nomore, no more blue screen man,
exactly.
So we gotta reset the wholecomputer, man, we have to
absolutely so it happens.
So I love, and I love thatyou're making time, because you
said you know, even if you don'tdo a lot of stuff, I love the
fact that you are in a flow inyour life where you love what

(01:02:33):
you do on a majority of the daythat you go out and you venture,
do the stuff that you do.
Has there been anything newthat you discovered doing this,
like this process of likeprioritizing, like what helps
mitigate and helps you manage asensory overload, and stuff like
that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
That is like so I wear I wear over the ear
headphones practicallyeverywhere I go.
Now, okay, um, I have foundthat I take so much sensory
information in through myhearing because I literally hear
everything.
I can hear lights, I can hearthe ticking, I literally hear
everything.
I can hear lights, I can hearthe ticking of the clock.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
You have a key hearing, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Oh, I hear it all.
I'm usually the one who findsthe stuff going wrong in the
house because I'm the first onewho hears it, because no one
else hears it.
So now that I am blocking a lotof that input out, I think that
has a lot to do with thelowering of my anxiety levels

(01:03:26):
too, because I was just takingin so much of that sensory
information and I didn't realizehow much it was overwhelming me
.
And now I just I don't care howgoofy I look in my over the ear
headphones.
I wear them everywhere I go.
People ask me all the time whydo you wear those?
Because everything is loud.
Um, yeah I'm like everythingyeah, imagine again.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
You know, for those who don't know, there's this.
I forget the name of the video,but there's this video on
youtube where it showed whatit's like for a person with
autism to be in a play, like amall, right, and so it was a pov
and it was from POV of a childand the mother, I guess, was
holding his hand and her voice,even though she was in front of

(01:04:09):
him, was sound like it was faraway.
It was very muted, but theclown running through the
merry-go-round going off, thepeople yelling in the food court
, all of this was justoverwhelming and it was so loud
for the child Because everythingis they can't.
Their brains don't know how tonaturally mute the sound from

(01:04:30):
further away and amplify thesound that's close proximity to
them, like a neurotypical personcan before personal autism.
Everything's happening at once,man.
So imagine 30 sounds all thesame volume, all happening at
once and and it just just knocksyou on your keystone, man, you
don't know what to do.
And so late in the video, themother took the child out and

(01:04:50):
you know, speaking of anxiety,uh, the child was having a panic
attack.
You know he was breathingrapidly, he was very short
breaths and mom had to help himcalm down, and then once the
child, it was so sweet.
Once the child calmed down, um,you know, mom, mom hugged him.
I was like man that's that'sreally beautiful Because, again,
this is the day in the life of,typically, of someone who has

(01:05:11):
to struggle with that.
So I love the fact that you can.
So is it the kind that cause?
I've seen this different onesthat work for different people.
I know there's like the noisecanceling ones people listening
to music and then there's um,there's this company that's that
used to manufacture the onesthat you have at the gun range
and they've fashioned it forchildren with autism and yeah,
it's like what's so cool.

(01:05:33):
So, yeah, so they manufacturedfor that and man, it really it
closed out.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
So much sound like I tried them on and I was like wow
oh, oh yeah, when I because Ithese are sony and I, um and
when I turn them on I I don'thave to listen to music it will
noise cancel, like justeverything for me, right.
And the first time I put themon I looked at my partner.

(01:06:02):
I go is this what it's like foryou to not hear everything?
And he's like yes, and I'm like, oh, it's so nice, everything's
not amplified and like therewas.
There was.
The other day I was in thebathroom of our house and I was
closer to the back of thebathroom and the bedroom where

(01:06:24):
the bed was is on the far otherwall.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
And my phone was sitting there and my phone was
still playing a video.
I could hear it word for wordin the bathroom and it was not
that loud, Like I didn't havethe volume up to a specific like
loud.
I could hear word for word inthe bathroom and I was sitting
there going.
Why can I hear this?

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
I'm just like it just amazes me the the random things
that I can pull out yeah, andthe thing is, you know you wish
you could turn it off, but youcan't, so you know.
So it's like it's it's alwayson, man, and that's the thing
you're navigating.
What I've learned from sittingwith folks who have autism and
stuff it's like, yeah, dude,it's always on.
So just sitting down, you know.

(01:07:06):
And if they have ADHD as well,it's like, hey, just sitting
down and listening to someonetakes a lot out of me, you know.
But I know people who have ADHDand who are therapists and they
do such an amazing job.
But I also see that when theycome back from making space with
so many of that during that day, they need that at least an
hour to just decompress and justnothing, just close their eyes
and just let their brain justcrystallize a lot of things that

(01:07:29):
they've been seeing and feeling.
So that way, they can bere-censor themselves,
essentially because again theypush really hard.
And yeah, I'm glad that, youknow, I'm glad this conversation
happened because again it can.
It really normalizes andgrounds a lot of stuff that
people, unfortunately, can tendto become hyperbolic about, you
know yeah again.
You know, having autism doesn'tmean you're just going to be

(01:07:52):
hey, treat this person totallydifferent and then amplify, you
know, something that's unique tothem.
No, they're regular people.
They're, they could be someawesome people around, they tell
jokes, they could be sarcastic.
They go after, uh, high-endjobs and get, you know, get
degrees and be able to have alife, relationships, you know,
romance, all those stuff isstill very much possible.

(01:08:12):
It's just a experience tailoredto them and everyone is
different, you know soabsolutely and everyone matters.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
So again, I love see I've got me saying a whole lot
more.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
now I've realized I've said it like almost 10
times during our conversationand that's really cool.
It's a very beautiful statementto make.
So, I thank you so much fortaking the time out to be here.
It was this was again theperfect time for it to happen.
I'm really glad that you thatyou made the time to come and
share your story, and I learneda lot and I'm sure a lot of the

(01:08:43):
listeners did too.
This was truly wonderful.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Yeah, so, as a per tradition, y'all thought I
forgot about this.
Right, I remember this pertradition, we'd love to leave
the door open for you to returnif you should ever want to.
If you ever want to come back,the door is always open for you
hey, anytime oh, we got her,guys, we still got it.
We got her.
She said, yes, cool, we'regonna put this on wax and record

(01:09:12):
this.
We're gonna, I'm gonna hold youto it.
That is so awesome, hey, yeah,so before before, absolutely so,
before you get out of here, umash, um, please drop any and all
relevant social media links,your NPO links.
I'll make sure to put all ofthat in the description of the
conversation so that way, peoplecan follow you on your journey

(01:09:33):
and contribute to a lot of thewonderful things that you're
doing.
You know the altruistic thingsand, of course, professional
stuff too, so I'll let you havethis as far as yours this was
yours.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Uh, so you can follow me on twitter, because no one
calls it x?
Um and my handle is at becauseI matter and if you, I've
recently started this wholetiktok thing.
I'm still learning, but if youwant to follow me there, it's at
because I matter 19.
Somebody already had the otherone, so at because I matter 19,
and that's on TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Okay, I'll make sure to get all of that, and please
do, guys.
It's incredible what Ashley isdoing for you know, for a lot of
folks who are dealing withautism, adhd and, of course,
those who are learning to getinto the pharmaceutical industry
of medicine.
You know, cultivating youngminds and, yeah, you can.
If she can do it, and she'sdone so much already in such a

(01:10:31):
short span of time, you can dothat and so much more.
So, on behalf of the incredibledr ashley perkins, I have been
your host, your uh, humblenavigator on this river of
conversation.
Professor Liquid, and for thoseunder the sound of my voice,
continue to maximize yourpotential while finding

(01:10:53):
acceleration in your purpose.
You all take care, be well, andI'll see you in the next
conversation.