October 8, 2025 • 27 mins
Visit my website
Can a positive mindset truly improve your health—or even help you beat disease? In this episode, Dr. Bobby and guest Sean McDevitt explore the evidence behind optimism, visualization, and prayer to uncover what really works.
In today’s episode of Live Long and Well, Dr. Bobby is joined by fitness and life coach Sean McDevitt to explore whether positive thinking can influence health outcomes. They dive into both anecdotal and clinical evidence, starting with sports psychology and then navigating the science behind mindset and disease.
The conversation opens with laughter and smiles—literally. Inspired by Norman Cousins’ Anatomy of an Illness, Dr. Bobby references a meta-analysis showing genuine smiling does, in fact, temporarily boost happiness, while artificial smiling (like holding a pen in your mouth) doesn’t.
They begin with sports, where 86 studies show that visualizing athletic success can improve performance in agility, strength, and game-specific skills. Next, they ask a deeper question: does having a positive attitude affect the progression of serious disease?
A meta-analysis of 26 studies on life satisfaction and longevity suggests happy people may live longer—especially when it comes to heart health. Optimism, for instance, was linked to a 35% reduction in cardiovascular events and a 15% decrease in all-cause mortality.
However, when it comes to cancer, the picture gets murkier. A review of 165 studies links stress to poorer survival, but a separate meta-analysis on coping styles found no consistent impact on recurrence or survival. One influential study on breast cancer patients even found that while helplessness predicted worse outcomes, having a “fighting spirit” made no significant difference (source). As Dr. Bobby notes, it’s important not to burden patients with guilt if they can’t “stay positive.”
The critical question becomes: if you're not naturally optimistic, can you cultivate positivity—and will it help? Encouragingly, several intervention studies suggest it might. One trial showed cardiac markers improved after optimism training, and a meta-analysis of 56 RCTs found a 15% boost in immune function after psychological interventions. A small MS study linked mindfulness to better walking ability, and a large RCT on breast cancer showed a 45% drop in recurrence with stress-reduction and mood-enhancing strategies.
Finally, the episode touches on spirituality. While many find comfort in prayer, evidence from an RCT of 800 ICU patients and a [meta-analysis] shows no significant impac
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Can you laugh your way to better health?
Does praying for others make adifference?
Will a positive attitude helpfight cancer?
We all want to know, both tohelp our loved ones who might be
ill or ourselves.
As always, what does theevidence tell us?
Let's look at a fair andbalanced way, and you can
(00:23):
decide.
There's something here foreveryone.
Hi, I'm Dr.
Bobby Du Bois, and welcome toLive Long and Well, a podcast
where we will talk about whatyou can do to live as long as
possible and with as much energyand vigor that you wish.
Together we will explore whatpractical and evidence-supported
(00:46):
steps you can take.
Come join me on this veryimportant journey, and I hope
that you feel empowered alongthe way.
I'm a physician, Iron Man,triathlete, and have published
several hundred scientificstudies.
I'm honored to be your guide.
Can thinking positively curedisease?
(01:06):
Last episode I shared my dearwife Gail's cancer journey.
And we've heard many very lovelywords shared with us.
Things like, I'll pray for youto Gail.
Your positive spirit will beatthe cancer.
Now, this sounds really good.
But as you might guess, I askedthe question, is there any
(01:29):
evidence?
And that's the topic we're goingto explore today.
Gail has a remarkably positiveattitude.
Is she more likely to win hercancer battle?
What does the evidence say?
And that's what we're going toexplore today.
Also, today I am tryingsomething new and I need your
feedback whether this issomething you want me to
(01:51):
continue to do.
You may recall back in episode25, I had an interview with Sean
McDevitt.
And we discussed taking what weknow works.
So what does the evidence sayabout exercise or nutrition?
And then how do you actuallymotivate people to do it?
So summarizing the evidence isone thing, but actually getting
people to do it is another, andthat's an area of expertise for
(02:13):
him.
Sean is a fitness and a lifecoach.
He also has an MBA and now worksin the tech world and was kind
enough to join me today.
And I thought it would be fun tohave two voices for this
episode.
Again, let me know whether thisformat works for you or not.
And should I do more episodeslike this?
They are likely to be a bitlonger than that 20 to 25 minute
(02:36):
uh length that I typically shootfor.
But again, you can tell me thetrade-off and whether that's
something you enjoy or not.
So, welcome, Sean, to Live Longand Well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Thank you so much, Bobby.
I really appreciate you havingme back.
And I know this is going to be avery powerful episode because so
much of what we're talking aboutis very near and dear to my
heart.
That said, I'm excited to getinto the data and find out what
is actually efficacious and thatwe can use in our lives backed
by science.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
And maybe some of it will surprise you, some of it
might depress you, and some ofit might just befuddle you.
So hopefully that will be truealso for our listeners.
Now, as I was thinking about thepower of positive thinking, I
was thinking back on my marathonand Iron Man Triathlon career
and the positive thoughts thatthe spectators send my way as
(03:31):
I'm biking past or I'm trudgingpast on my marathon at the end
of all of this.
Now, I have to admit, some ofthe words didn't really help me.
So in a marathon, when somebodysays, you're almost there, and
you're only at mile 15, you gotanother 11 miles to go, that
doesn't necessarily help me.
(03:52):
Or you look great.
And I know I'm dying, so I knowI don't look great.
So these words didn't cheer meup or improve my running speed.
So there's a question of powerof positive thinking.
Of course, it was their positivethinking, not necessarily mine.
But as I reflected, I realizedthere were some words I really
(04:13):
enjoyed and actually pumped meup and got me happy for at least
a period of time.
One of them is hey, nakedspectators ahead.
Well, that got some images andtook me out of my pain place.
Beer at the next water stop, orlittle kids giving me high
fives.
This really works.
So there was some positiveaspects for me, although
(04:36):
temporary.
So, Sean, you were a competitiveswimmer in high school and
college.
And what thoughts helped you?
What did not?
Where was the power of positivethinking for you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
I appreciate this question so much, Bobby, and for
your listeners.
I swam for the University ofGeorgia, Go Dogs, very proud of
that accomplishment.
As you mentioned during yourmarathons and triathlons, you
heard a litany of differentcomments from the Peanut
Gallery, so to speak, whetherthey were positive, negative, or
just funny.
Unfortunately, being under thewater, I did not hear beer in
the next lap.
(05:09):
I did not hear, you know, nakedspectators in the pool.
However, what I did hear thatwas helpful were more of the
tactical specific strategies forswimming specifically.
And so if I had a coach or myfather or a friend tease out
something that they actually sawthat I could thoughtfully fix or
remedy for that next race, Ireally appreciated that.
(05:31):
The hey go win or swim fast.
It was like, okay, I I got it.
Yes, that's the plan.
And that wasn't very helpful.
I like you.
You know, I appreciated thepositivity.
I'd much rather have someonesay, hey, you're gonna do great,
right?
But what I found is thatexpectators, others in the
audience will sort of apply whatthey think worked for them.
It may not work for theindividual that's competing, and
(05:53):
that's why I liked more of thetechnical expertise or
actionable things that I couldactually focus on during a race.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's great.
And yes, being under the watermakes it a little difficult to
hear, so I can uh I canunderstand that.
But the thought of nakedspectators in the in the pool,
that might get me excited andinterested.
So in the 60s, Norman Cousins,who's an author, developed a
degenerative disease of hisback, and he created his own
(06:23):
approach to get healthy.
And his theory or his approachwas if stress can hurt you and
make you ill, then perhaps theopposite, laughter, can help.
And so he wrote a book, TheAnatomy of an Illness.
In essence, he was saying youcan laugh your way to health.
And so he watched funny movies.
(06:46):
And his goal in watching thesefunny movies was to have about
10 minutes of true bellylaughing, you know, uncontrolled
laughing.
And his condition got better.
Now, he attributed it to, well,the laughing and such releases
endorphins, maybe your cortisolstress hormones go down, maybe
it helps your immune system.
(07:07):
So this goes back 60 years wherehe was really promoting this.
And as I was putting stufftogether for today, I looked at
the literature on not laughter,because there's not a whole lot
on laughter, but there is onsmiling.
And there is a meta-analysis ora summary of many, many studies.
And they asked the question (07:26):
did the act of smiling, meaning
pulling your kind of the cornersof your mouth up and maybe
squinting your eyes, does itactually change your brain?
And temporarily do you feelhappier?
And the answer was, yes, itreally did.
And if you try this at home formy listeners, you will find it's
(07:48):
hard to be kind of sad if youstick your mouth in a smiling
position.
Now, some very industriousresearchers said, well, yeah,
maybe, maybe, but they weregoing to imitate smiling by
putting a pen in people's mouth,not sticking it down their
throat sideways.
And so it kind of forces yourlips upwards.
(08:10):
And that was sort of imitating asmile.
What they found ultimately wasthat didn't work.
But a true smile initiated byyou did seem to make people
happier.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Well, I love that smiling study, Bobby.
And it reminds me of the powerof positive thinking, quote
unquote.
And it seems like, based on thestudies, if we're very genuine
in our smiling, there are somebenefits.
How might we approach thisgeneric topic, whether positive
thinking can affect our health?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Yeah, that's really the crux of the issue.
We're gonna just take a f acouple of minutes, talk about
sports, because in sports, thereare studies and belief that if
you imagine hitting thebaseball, imagine hitting that
serve and it goes it exactlywhere you want that it might
actually make a difference.
(09:00):
Then we're gonna turn to thenext two health areas.
So the first is are people whohave a positive attitude when a
disease hits, are they likely toget a better outcome versus
somebody who is very down in thedumps, has a very negative view.
So it's a correlation betweenhappiness and the outcome of the
(09:24):
illness.
Then the third part, which Ithink in many respects is the
most critical one, is well,maybe you don't generally have a
positive attitude, or maybe, youknow, with this illness that
just beset you, you're notfeeling very upbeat.
So now the question is if therewas a way to change your
attitude, get you in a morepositive space, would that
(09:49):
change the outcome of yourdisease?
And that's really, reallycritical.
As I said earlier, there'ssomething for everyone here.
There are some studies thatsupport it and some studies that
are not supportive.
So let's jump into sports.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
I appreciate you mentioning the sports component,
Bobby, because as you canimagine, in my high school and
collegiate swimming careers,I've been around many athletes
who visualize success.
For me, it's something to doversus being nervous before the
race.
And it was something that my dadactually recommended that I
start doing for that reason,because as an eight,
nine-year-old, I started makingthese big meets, and all of a
(10:26):
sudden I got a little bit morenervous.
And so my dad encouraged me tovisualize the race, and I found
that anecdotally it helped mecalm my nerves.
Um so it seems to help folks.
I'm curious if there are anystudies to support this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
So when when you were swimming, did you ever like
envision your stroke or envisionthat perfect flip turn?
Was that something that maybeyou pre-gamed to get yourself
ready?
And did it make a difference?
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
I actually used to do this all the time, Bobby, in
and out of the actual meet.
And so if I had a bigcompetition coming up, I would
actually visualize the races inbed or my favorite races, the
nights leading up to the meet.
And so, for instance, if themeet started on a Thursday, I
might start on Mondayvisualizing it at night as I'm
going to bed.
And then as my pre-race ritual,I would visualize a little bit
(11:16):
more and just bring that backup.
I cannot tell you because no onewas in my head watching what I
was visualizing if I wasactually able to execute on
that.
But I did feel more preparedbecause it felt like I had swum
the race already or I had donethe meet already.
And so it did help calm mynerves in that way.
And anecdotally, as a placeboeffect, it was helpful for
(11:38):
lowering the stress and loweringthe anxiety around the actual
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
So let's turn to the evidence.
What do we know in the area ofsports?
So this isn't health.
We'll get to that in a second.
So the studies typically lookedat imaging, meaning people were
envisioning how that perfecthigh jump would go or that
perfect golf swing and exactlywhere the ball would go that you
(12:06):
wanted to go.
So they had these imagerypractices and some psychological
skills training that basicallyhelped people feel positive
about what they were about todo.
And there were 86 studies.
There was a lot of studies.
And what they found was therewere benefits in muscle
strength, tennis and soccerperformance, and agility.
(12:27):
And what they found was that 10minutes of visualizing three
times a week for a hundred daysseemed to really help people.
So I found that reallyinteresting.
Of course, we could have thiswhole discussion about sports,
but that's not what our maintopic is for today.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
I do wish I could go back in time using this data and
increase my visualizing evenmore.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
So one of the examples of these types of
studies, and again, there's beena lot of studies that look at
some of this, the thing about dohappy people live longer?
And is there a relationshipbetween how satisfied you are
and optimistic you are, and whathappens long term?
Are you going to live longer?
(13:12):
And there was a review of about26 studies, and they did seem to
show a relationship.
I'll just give you, give mylisteners a glimpse of one of
them.
Again, we're not talking abouthealth per se, but it's looking
at people who are happy andwhether they tend to live
longer.
So this was a study that theylooked at 196 professional
(13:33):
baseball players in 1952.
Now they had pictures of them,and they rated the pictures as
to how happy they looked.
And then they figured out howlong they were going to live.
And they controlled for baselinehealth and whatever it was.
And what they found was therewas a relationship.
The happy baseball players andthe fees lived longer.
(13:56):
Now it was most pronounced forheart disease.
It didn't correlate as stronglyfor cancer or some other things,
but for heart disease.
And we're going to come back tothat.
Now, obviously, that's notcausality, but that's at least a
kind of a hint on where we're wemay be going.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
That's a fun study, Bobby.
Things that make you go, hmm.
Are there any studies that lookat particular diseases?
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah, and I wanted to sort of break this down into
areas.
So in the heart, there's been alot of studies, and they found
that if you're optimistic at thebeginning of the illness, it was
associated with a 35% lower riskof cardiac events.
It could have been a heartattack and such, and a 15% lower
(14:44):
all-cause mortality.
So in the area of heart, there'sevidence that being happy at
baseline made a difference.
They also looked at people whowere having bypass surgery,
which is a big operation on yourheart.
And they asked the question whowas calm and happy and
optimistic and upbeat versusnot, and who did better?
(15:05):
And they looked at people at sixmonths later, and their quality
of life for those people whowere in the happy place at the
beginning was much better andtheir recovery went smoother.
Now, you might ask, of course,and should ask, well, how can
this occur?
Can we actually believe this?
Now, if you're a believer in thepower of positive thinking, you
(15:26):
may say, well, negative feelingsmay affect our hormone levels,
like cortisol, some otherthings.
And that could affectcardiovascular disease or other
outcomes.
Or you can take the cynicalview.
Perhaps the people that werepositive felt more energetic and
worked harder.
So if they were supposed to getexercise after their heart
(15:49):
attack and they were in apositive place, they were more
likely to do it, perhaps.
So again, this was anobservational study, and that's
what we learn.
And for Hart, there is somepromising evidence.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
As we break down these particular diseases,
Bobby, I imagine it's top ofmind for your listeners given
the last episode.
I'm curious about cancer.
Any information there?
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Yes.
And at the outset of this, Isaid, yes, well, Gail's got a
positive attitude.
Maybe that's going to make allthe difference in the world, and
I hope so.
So it's a mixed picture in thearea of cancer.
There is a meta-analysis of 165studies, and they looked at
stressful life experiences.
And people who had stressfullife experiences had a lower
(16:36):
cancer survival rate.
But there's a lot of questionsabout the validity of some of
the studies and all.
So that one's not quite soclear.
Another large summary of studieslooked at coping styles and
cancer survival.
And here they said there'slittle consistent evidence that
the coping style played animportant part.
(17:00):
Now, this is an interesting kindof double-edged sword.
On the one hand, you'd like tothink, well, if I adopt a
positive attitude, I'm going tobeat this cancer.
But imagine you're so worn outfrom the disease and the
chemotherapy and the radiationtherapy, you just don't have
that fighting spirit.
And so you may feel guilty,like, well, if only I could be
(17:22):
positive, I'd beat the cancer.
So actually, by telling patientsit may not make a difference, it
takes some of the emotion andguilt out of the equation.
There was an actual study thatlooked at early stage breast
cancer about whether fightingspirit mattered.
It didn't really make adifference.
(17:44):
So again, a couple of things togive us pause.
Now, why might people who have apositive attitude look to do
better in some of these studies?
Well, if you if you'refinancially more well off and
you have social resources tosupport you, you may be in a
(18:05):
more positive place in yourlife.
And you may do better with thedisease, but it might not do to
the positive attitude.
It might have to do with thefinancial resources and other
kinds of things.
So it's it's a little circularin reasoning, and so we really
don't know ultimately the answeron this one.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah, it seems like we have mixed reviews, and
there's bad news and a good newsstory here for cancer
specifically.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
I think it is.
Just to reaffirm that I thinkit's very positive to say to
people, you're gonna fight thisthing, and that's great if
you're a fighter.
But if you're not a fighter,take the guilt off because the
studies don't say it makes adifference.
If you're in a positive place,that's just fantastic.
You'll feel better about thewhole where you are in your
(18:52):
life.
But if you don't feel thatfighting spirit, it's okay, and
your outcome is likely to bejust the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
So it seems like if one has a positive attitude,
they might be able to improvetheir disease outcomes.
But if they don't necessarilyhave an extremely positive
outlook, what do we do then?
Can you do something to createthat, to get that positive
attitude?
And would that actually help?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Yeah, and that's really the crux of the issue is
if we work with folks and helpthem to be more positive, could
be cognitive behavioral therapy,it could be mantras, it could be
journaling, it could be any of anumber of things.
The question is, if we did thatand we help people along that
path, would it make adifference?
(19:38):
And there is some good newshere.
So in the heart area, whichagain, remember I mentioned that
that in the heart area, havingpositive outlooks seemed to
correlate with living longer anddoing better.
But when they actuallyintervened and taught people
optimism training, many of theircardiac markers, blood markers,
(20:00):
things about their heart gotbetter.
Well, now that's exciting.
But what about immune function?
Does a positive attitude helpthere?
Again, there were 56 studiesover 4,000 patients, and they
looked at various blood markers,cell counts and inflammatory
blood markers, and they foundthat those interventions that
(20:22):
help people be positive, all ofa sudden their inflammation
markers did get better.
And I'll have some of the linksin the show notes because some
of you may be wondering how isthis possible for multiple
sclerosis.
It was a tiny study, there wereonly 35 people, but they did
mindfulness and positivetraining.
(20:43):
And what they found is the groupthat had that had an improvement
in walking distance because MSpatients find it sometimes very
difficult to walk any length oftime.
In cancer, it's again, oncemore, it's a bit more mixed.
But there was a study in breastcancer, and they had some
(21:03):
strategies to help people reducestress, improve their mood, and
such.
And the recurrence rate seemedto be lower in the people who
underwent that training.
So there it's a mixed message,but I'm you know cautiously
optimistic.
I'm gonna adopt a positiveattitude about all of this.
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
I love it.
I'm curious, Bobby, are thereany other areas of the mind-body
that maybe we should focus onand discuss?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So one of the things that I mentioned at the outset
was all the wonderful people whosaid, I will pray for you.
And it definitely felt good toknow people cared and that they
would be with us along thisjourney.
But then the question is uhagain, is there any evidence
that prayer for someone else?
(21:51):
And this isn't prayer foryourself, it's prayer for
someone else, improved survival.
So they took in this randomizedtrial 800 people that were in
the ICU.
And at discharge, they had halfof the people get intercessory
prayer.
So that's prayer by somebodyelse.
(22:11):
And there were five people thatprayed for you on a weekly
basis.
So we're getting heavy dutyprayer for you.
And then there was the controlgroup that didn't have the
prayer, and they followed themfor about six months.
And they looked at death andhospital readmissions, need to
go back to the emergencydepartment, and there was no
difference in outcome.
(22:32):
Now, if people think you'repraying for them, are you going
to feel better about the wholething?
Sure, why not?
But will it change the outcomeof an illness?
The data don't really supportthat.
But I suspect if you enjoyprayer and it makes you and the
other party feel better, then byall means that's the way to go.
(22:54):
So, Sean, before I wrap up, anysort of points that you want to
think about?
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
This was very informational, Bobby, and I'm
excited to use some of this inmy own life because much like
yourself, I am often looking forcheat codes or strategies or
hacks to be able to delay agingand live longer, live happier,
live healthier, as I know that'syour brand.
And this was very helpful interms of the smiling studies,
(23:20):
the genuine smiling studies, andseeing what can actually,
supported by science, make adifference in our lives for
long-term health andholistically.
So I really appreciate whatyou're doing overall, and I
imagine your listenersappreciate it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Well, thank you.
It's been great to have youhere.
And by all means, let me know,my listeners, whether you like
the back and forth approach andhow whether we should continue
to do this.
Well, let's wrap up.
The topic of power of positivethinking with respect to our
health is really importantbecause serious illness has a
way of creeping up on all of us,whether it's in our loved ones
(23:55):
or ourselves, and so it's animportant topic.
It does appear that if you dohave a positive outlook, it is
associated with doing better.
The data are mixed, but I wouldsay they're promising.
The key question is whetherbecoming more positive will
help.
Now, the jury's out for somediseases, it appeared some of
(24:17):
the blood markers got better,and for cancer and some of the
others, maybe not so much.
And on another day, we mighttalk about spirituality and
cancer outcomes.
Does in yourself, does going tochurch or synagogue or a mosque
improve outcomes?
So that may be a topic foranother day.
(24:38):
As always, I hope that you livelong and well.
And when you have a positiveattitude, that's delightful.
I know Gail has a positiveoutlook.
I hope it helps her.
It clearly brightens up everyonearound here, hearer and me.
Sean, thank you for joining us.
And uh I look forward to morediscussions together.
(24:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks so much for listening toLive Long and Well with Dr.
Bobby.
If you like this episode, pleaseprovide a review on Apple or
Spotify or wherever you listen.
If you want to continue thisjourney or want to receive my
newsletter on practical andscientific ways to improve your
health and longevity, pleasevisit me at Dr.
(25:22):
Bobby Livelong and Well.
That's Dr.
As N D R Bobby Live Long andWell.
Can you laugh your way to better health?
Does praying for others make adifference?
Will a positive attitude helpfight cancer?
We all want to know, both tohelp our loved ones who might be
ill or ourselves.
As always, what does theevidence tell us?
Let's look at a fair andbalanced way, and you can
(00:23):
decide.
There's something here foreveryone.
Hi, I'm Dr.
Bobby Du Bois, and welcome toLive Long and Well, a podcast
where we will talk about whatyou can do to live as long as
possible and with as much energyand vigor that you wish.
Together we will explore whatpractical and evidence-supported
(00:46):
steps you can take.
Come join me on this veryimportant journey, and I hope
that you feel empowered alongthe way.
I'm a physician, Iron Man,triathlete, and have published
several hundred scientificstudies.
I'm honored to be your guide.
Can thinking positively curedisease?
(01:06):
Last episode I shared my dearwife Gail's cancer journey.
And we've heard many very lovelywords shared with us.
Things like, I'll pray for youto Gail.
Your positive spirit will beatthe cancer.
Now, this sounds really good.
But as you might guess, I askedthe question, is there any
(01:29):
evidence?
And that's the topic we're goingto explore today.
Gail has a remarkably positiveattitude.
Is she more likely to win hercancer battle?
What does the evidence say?
And that's what we're going toexplore today.
Also, today I am tryingsomething new and I need your
feedback whether this issomething you want me to
(01:51):
continue to do.
You may recall back in episode25, I had an interview with Sean
McDevitt.
And we discussed taking what weknow works.
So what does the evidence sayabout exercise or nutrition?
And then how do you actuallymotivate people to do it?
So summarizing the evidence isone thing, but actually getting
people to do it is another, andthat's an area of expertise for
(02:13):
him.
Sean is a fitness and a lifecoach.
He also has an MBA and now worksin the tech world and was kind
enough to join me today.
And I thought it would be fun tohave two voices for this
episode.
Again, let me know whether thisformat works for you or not.
And should I do more episodeslike this?
They are likely to be a bitlonger than that 20 to 25 minute
(02:36):
uh length that I typically shootfor.
But again, you can tell me thetrade-off and whether that's
something you enjoy or not.
So, welcome, Sean, to Live Longand Well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Thank you so much, Bobby.
I really appreciate you havingme back.
And I know this is going to be avery powerful episode because so
much of what we're talking aboutis very near and dear to my
heart.
That said, I'm excited to getinto the data and find out what
is actually efficacious and thatwe can use in our lives backed
by science.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
And maybe some of it will surprise you, some of it
might depress you, and some ofit might just befuddle you.
So hopefully that will be truealso for our listeners.
Now, as I was thinking about thepower of positive thinking, I
was thinking back on my marathonand Iron Man Triathlon career
and the positive thoughts thatthe spectators send my way as
(03:31):
I'm biking past or I'm trudgingpast on my marathon at the end
of all of this.
Now, I have to admit, some ofthe words didn't really help me.
So in a marathon, when somebodysays, you're almost there, and
you're only at mile 15, you gotanother 11 miles to go, that
doesn't necessarily help me.
(03:52):
Or you look great.
And I know I'm dying, so I knowI don't look great.
So these words didn't cheer meup or improve my running speed.
So there's a question of powerof positive thinking.
Of course, it was their positivethinking, not necessarily mine.
But as I reflected, I realizedthere were some words I really
(04:13):
enjoyed and actually pumped meup and got me happy for at least
a period of time.
One of them is hey, nakedspectators ahead.
Well, that got some images andtook me out of my pain place.
Beer at the next water stop, orlittle kids giving me high
fives.
This really works.
So there was some positiveaspects for me, although
(04:36):
temporary.
So, Sean, you were a competitiveswimmer in high school and
college.
And what thoughts helped you?
What did not?
Where was the power of positivethinking for you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
I appreciate this question so much, Bobby, and for
your listeners.
I swam for the University ofGeorgia, Go Dogs, very proud of
that accomplishment.
As you mentioned during yourmarathons and triathlons, you
heard a litany of differentcomments from the Peanut
Gallery, so to speak, whetherthey were positive, negative, or
just funny.
Unfortunately, being under thewater, I did not hear beer in
the next lap.
(05:09):
I did not hear, you know, nakedspectators in the pool.
However, what I did hear thatwas helpful were more of the
tactical specific strategies forswimming specifically.
And so if I had a coach or myfather or a friend tease out
something that they actually sawthat I could thoughtfully fix or
remedy for that next race, Ireally appreciated that.
(05:31):
The hey go win or swim fast.
It was like, okay, I I got it.
Yes, that's the plan.
And that wasn't very helpful.
I like you.
You know, I appreciated thepositivity.
I'd much rather have someonesay, hey, you're gonna do great,
right?
But what I found is thatexpectators, others in the
audience will sort of apply whatthey think worked for them.
It may not work for theindividual that's competing, and
(05:53):
that's why I liked more of thetechnical expertise or
actionable things that I couldactually focus on during a race.
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
That's great.
And yes, being under the watermakes it a little difficult to
hear, so I can uh I canunderstand that.
But the thought of nakedspectators in the in the pool,
that might get me excited andinterested.
So in the 60s, Norman Cousins,who's an author, developed a
degenerative disease of hisback, and he created his own
(06:23):
approach to get healthy.
And his theory or his approachwas if stress can hurt you and
make you ill, then perhaps theopposite, laughter, can help.
And so he wrote a book, TheAnatomy of an Illness.
In essence, he was saying youcan laugh your way to health.
And so he watched funny movies.
(06:46):
And his goal in watching thesefunny movies was to have about
10 minutes of true bellylaughing, you know, uncontrolled
laughing.
And his condition got better.
Now, he attributed it to, well,the laughing and such releases
endorphins, maybe your cortisolstress hormones go down, maybe
it helps your immune system.
(07:07):
So this goes back 60 years wherehe was really promoting this.
And as I was putting stufftogether for today, I looked at
the literature on not laughter,because there's not a whole lot
on laughter, but there is onsmiling.
And there is a meta-analysis ora summary of many, many studies.
And they asked the question (07:26):
did the act of smiling, meaning
pulling your kind of the cornersof your mouth up and maybe
squinting your eyes, does itactually change your brain?
And temporarily do you feelhappier?
And the answer was, yes, itreally did.
And if you try this at home formy listeners, you will find it's
(07:48):
hard to be kind of sad if youstick your mouth in a smiling
position.
Now, some very industriousresearchers said, well, yeah,
maybe, maybe, but they weregoing to imitate smiling by
putting a pen in people's mouth,not sticking it down their
throat sideways.
And so it kind of forces yourlips upwards.
(08:10):
And that was sort of imitating asmile.
What they found ultimately wasthat didn't work.
But a true smile initiated byyou did seem to make people
happier.
SPEAKER_01 (08:22):
Well, I love that smiling study, Bobby.
And it reminds me of the powerof positive thinking, quote
unquote.
And it seems like, based on thestudies, if we're very genuine
in our smiling, there are somebenefits.
How might we approach thisgeneric topic, whether positive
thinking can affect our health?
SPEAKER_00 (08:39):
Yeah, that's really the crux of the issue.
We're gonna just take a f acouple of minutes, talk about
sports, because in sports, thereare studies and belief that if
you imagine hitting thebaseball, imagine hitting that
serve and it goes it exactlywhere you want that it might
actually make a difference.
(09:00):
Then we're gonna turn to thenext two health areas.
So the first is are people whohave a positive attitude when a
disease hits, are they likely toget a better outcome versus
somebody who is very down in thedumps, has a very negative view.
So it's a correlation betweenhappiness and the outcome of the
(09:24):
illness.
Then the third part, which Ithink in many respects is the
most critical one, is well,maybe you don't generally have a
positive attitude, or maybe, youknow, with this illness that
just beset you, you're notfeeling very upbeat.
So now the question is if therewas a way to change your
attitude, get you in a morepositive space, would that
(09:49):
change the outcome of yourdisease?
And that's really, reallycritical.
As I said earlier, there'ssomething for everyone here.
There are some studies thatsupport it and some studies that
are not supportive.
So let's jump into sports.
SPEAKER_01 (10:04):
I appreciate you mentioning the sports component,
Bobby, because as you canimagine, in my high school and
collegiate swimming careers,I've been around many athletes
who visualize success.
For me, it's something to doversus being nervous before the
race.
And it was something that my dadactually recommended that I
start doing for that reason,because as an eight,
nine-year-old, I started makingthese big meets, and all of a
(10:26):
sudden I got a little bit morenervous.
And so my dad encouraged me tovisualize the race, and I found
that anecdotally it helped mecalm my nerves.
Um so it seems to help folks.
I'm curious if there are anystudies to support this.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
So when when you were swimming, did you ever like
envision your stroke or envisionthat perfect flip turn?
Was that something that maybeyou pre-gamed to get yourself
ready?
And did it make a difference?
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
I actually used to do this all the time, Bobby, in
and out of the actual meet.
And so if I had a bigcompetition coming up, I would
actually visualize the races inbed or my favorite races, the
nights leading up to the meet.
And so, for instance, if themeet started on a Thursday, I
might start on Mondayvisualizing it at night as I'm
going to bed.
And then as my pre-race ritual,I would visualize a little bit
(11:16):
more and just bring that backup.
I cannot tell you because no onewas in my head watching what I
was visualizing if I wasactually able to execute on
that.
But I did feel more preparedbecause it felt like I had swum
the race already or I had donethe meet already.
And so it did help calm mynerves in that way.
And anecdotally, as a placeboeffect, it was helpful for
(11:38):
lowering the stress and loweringthe anxiety around the actual
That's great.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
So let's turn to the evidence.
What do we know in the area ofsports?
So this isn't health.
We'll get to that in a second.
So the studies typically lookedat imaging, meaning people were
envisioning how that perfecthigh jump would go or that
perfect golf swing and exactlywhere the ball would go that you
(12:06):
wanted to go.
So they had these imagerypractices and some psychological
skills training that basicallyhelped people feel positive
about what they were about todo.
And there were 86 studies.
There was a lot of studies.
And what they found was therewere benefits in muscle
strength, tennis and soccerperformance, and agility.
(12:27):
And what they found was that 10minutes of visualizing three
times a week for a hundred daysseemed to really help people.
So I found that reallyinteresting.
Of course, we could have thiswhole discussion about sports,
but that's not what our maintopic is for today.
SPEAKER_01 (12:47):
I do wish I could go back in time using this data and
increase my visualizing evenmore.
SPEAKER_00 (12:51):
So one of the examples of these types of
studies, and again, there's beena lot of studies that look at
some of this, the thing about dohappy people live longer?
And is there a relationshipbetween how satisfied you are
and optimistic you are, and whathappens long term?
Are you going to live longer?
(13:12):
And there was a review of about26 studies, and they did seem to
show a relationship.
I'll just give you, give mylisteners a glimpse of one of
them.
Again, we're not talking abouthealth per se, but it's looking
at people who are happy andwhether they tend to live
longer.
So this was a study that theylooked at 196 professional
(13:33):
baseball players in 1952.
Now they had pictures of them,and they rated the pictures as
to how happy they looked.
And then they figured out howlong they were going to live.
And they controlled for baselinehealth and whatever it was.
And what they found was therewas a relationship.
The happy baseball players andthe fees lived longer.
(13:56):
Now it was most pronounced forheart disease.
It didn't correlate as stronglyfor cancer or some other things,
but for heart disease.
And we're going to come back tothat.
Now, obviously, that's notcausality, but that's at least a
kind of a hint on where we're wemay be going.
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
That's a fun study, Bobby.
Things that make you go, hmm.
Are there any studies that lookat particular diseases?
SPEAKER_00 (14:22):
Yeah, and I wanted to sort of break this down into
areas.
So in the heart, there's been alot of studies, and they found
that if you're optimistic at thebeginning of the illness, it was
associated with a 35% lower riskof cardiac events.
It could have been a heartattack and such, and a 15% lower
(14:44):
all-cause mortality.
So in the area of heart, there'sevidence that being happy at
baseline made a difference.
They also looked at people whowere having bypass surgery,
which is a big operation on yourheart.
And they asked the question whowas calm and happy and
optimistic and upbeat versusnot, and who did better?
(15:05):
And they looked at people at sixmonths later, and their quality
of life for those people whowere in the happy place at the
beginning was much better andtheir recovery went smoother.
Now, you might ask, of course,and should ask, well, how can
this occur?
Can we actually believe this?
Now, if you're a believer in thepower of positive thinking, you
(15:26):
may say, well, negative feelingsmay affect our hormone levels,
like cortisol, some otherthings.
And that could affectcardiovascular disease or other
outcomes.
Or you can take the cynicalview.
Perhaps the people that werepositive felt more energetic and
worked harder.
So if they were supposed to getexercise after their heart
(15:49):
attack and they were in apositive place, they were more
likely to do it, perhaps.
So again, this was anobservational study, and that's
what we learn.
And for Hart, there is somepromising evidence.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
As we break down these particular diseases,
Bobby, I imagine it's top ofmind for your listeners given
the last episode.
I'm curious about cancer.
Any information there?
SPEAKER_00 (16:13):
Yes.
And at the outset of this, Isaid, yes, well, Gail's got a
positive attitude.
Maybe that's going to make allthe difference in the world, and
I hope so.
So it's a mixed picture in thearea of cancer.
There is a meta-analysis of 165studies, and they looked at
stressful life experiences.
And people who had stressfullife experiences had a lower
(16:36):
cancer survival rate.
But there's a lot of questionsabout the validity of some of
the studies and all.
So that one's not quite soclear.
Another large summary of studieslooked at coping styles and
cancer survival.
And here they said there'slittle consistent evidence that
the coping style played animportant part.
(17:00):
Now, this is an interesting kindof double-edged sword.
On the one hand, you'd like tothink, well, if I adopt a
positive attitude, I'm going tobeat this cancer.
But imagine you're so worn outfrom the disease and the
chemotherapy and the radiationtherapy, you just don't have
that fighting spirit.
And so you may feel guilty,like, well, if only I could be
(17:22):
positive, I'd beat the cancer.
So actually, by telling patientsit may not make a difference, it
takes some of the emotion andguilt out of the equation.
There was an actual study thatlooked at early stage breast
cancer about whether fightingspirit mattered.
It didn't really make adifference.
(17:44):
So again, a couple of things togive us pause.
Now, why might people who have apositive attitude look to do
better in some of these studies?
Well, if you if you'refinancially more well off and
you have social resources tosupport you, you may be in a
(18:05):
more positive place in yourlife.
And you may do better with thedisease, but it might not do to
the positive attitude.
It might have to do with thefinancial resources and other
kinds of things.
So it's it's a little circularin reasoning, and so we really
don't know ultimately the answeron this one.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Yeah, it seems like we have mixed reviews, and
there's bad news and a good newsstory here for cancer
specifically.
SPEAKER_00 (18:30):
I think it is.
Just to reaffirm that I thinkit's very positive to say to
people, you're gonna fight thisthing, and that's great if
you're a fighter.
But if you're not a fighter,take the guilt off because the
studies don't say it makes adifference.
If you're in a positive place,that's just fantastic.
You'll feel better about thewhole where you are in your
(18:52):
life.
But if you don't feel thatfighting spirit, it's okay, and
your outcome is likely to bejust the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:00):
So it seems like if one has a positive attitude,
they might be able to improvetheir disease outcomes.
But if they don't necessarilyhave an extremely positive
outlook, what do we do then?
Can you do something to createthat, to get that positive
attitude?
And would that actually help?
SPEAKER_00 (19:16):
Yeah, and that's really the crux of the issue is
if we work with folks and helpthem to be more positive, could
be cognitive behavioral therapy,it could be mantras, it could be
journaling, it could be any of anumber of things.
The question is, if we did thatand we help people along that
path, would it make adifference?
(19:38):
And there is some good newshere.
So in the heart area, whichagain, remember I mentioned that
that in the heart area, havingpositive outlooks seemed to
correlate with living longer anddoing better.
But when they actuallyintervened and taught people
optimism training, many of theircardiac markers, blood markers,
(20:00):
things about their heart gotbetter.
Well, now that's exciting.
But what about immune function?
Does a positive attitude helpthere?
Again, there were 56 studiesover 4,000 patients, and they
looked at various blood markers,cell counts and inflammatory
blood markers, and they foundthat those interventions that
(20:22):
help people be positive, all ofa sudden their inflammation
markers did get better.
And I'll have some of the linksin the show notes because some
of you may be wondering how isthis possible for multiple
sclerosis.
It was a tiny study, there wereonly 35 people, but they did
mindfulness and positivetraining.
(20:43):
And what they found is the groupthat had that had an improvement
in walking distance because MSpatients find it sometimes very
difficult to walk any length oftime.
In cancer, it's again, oncemore, it's a bit more mixed.
But there was a study in breastcancer, and they had some
(21:03):
strategies to help people reducestress, improve their mood, and
such.
And the recurrence rate seemedto be lower in the people who
underwent that training.
So there it's a mixed message,but I'm you know cautiously
optimistic.
I'm gonna adopt a positiveattitude about all of this.
SPEAKER_01 (21:24):
I love it.
I'm curious, Bobby, are thereany other areas of the mind-body
that maybe we should focus onand discuss?
SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
So one of the things that I mentioned at the outset
was all the wonderful people whosaid, I will pray for you.
And it definitely felt good toknow people cared and that they
would be with us along thisjourney.
But then the question is uhagain, is there any evidence
that prayer for someone else?
(21:51):
And this isn't prayer foryourself, it's prayer for
someone else, improved survival.
So they took in this randomizedtrial 800 people that were in
the ICU.
And at discharge, they had halfof the people get intercessory
prayer.
So that's prayer by somebodyelse.
(22:11):
And there were five people thatprayed for you on a weekly
basis.
So we're getting heavy dutyprayer for you.
And then there was the controlgroup that didn't have the
prayer, and they followed themfor about six months.
And they looked at death andhospital readmissions, need to
go back to the emergencydepartment, and there was no
difference in outcome.
(22:32):
Now, if people think you'repraying for them, are you going
to feel better about the wholething?
Sure, why not?
But will it change the outcomeof an illness?
The data don't really supportthat.
But I suspect if you enjoyprayer and it makes you and the
other party feel better, then byall means that's the way to go.
(22:54):
So, Sean, before I wrap up, anysort of points that you want to
think about?
SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
This was very informational, Bobby, and I'm
excited to use some of this inmy own life because much like
yourself, I am often looking forcheat codes or strategies or
hacks to be able to delay agingand live longer, live happier,
live healthier, as I know that'syour brand.
And this was very helpful interms of the smiling studies,
(23:20):
the genuine smiling studies, andseeing what can actually,
supported by science, make adifference in our lives for
long-term health andholistically.
So I really appreciate whatyou're doing overall, and I
imagine your listenersappreciate it as well.
SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Well, thank you.
It's been great to have youhere.
And by all means, let me know,my listeners, whether you like
the back and forth approach andhow whether we should continue
to do this.
Well, let's wrap up.
The topic of power of positivethinking with respect to our
health is really importantbecause serious illness has a
way of creeping up on all of us,whether it's in our loved ones
(23:55):
or ourselves, and so it's animportant topic.
It does appear that if you dohave a positive outlook, it is
associated with doing better.
The data are mixed, but I wouldsay they're promising.
The key question is whetherbecoming more positive will
help.
Now, the jury's out for somediseases, it appeared some of
(24:17):
the blood markers got better,and for cancer and some of the
others, maybe not so much.
And on another day, we mighttalk about spirituality and
cancer outcomes.
Does in yourself, does going tochurch or synagogue or a mosque
improve outcomes?
So that may be a topic foranother day.
(24:38):
As always, I hope that you livelong and well.
And when you have a positiveattitude, that's delightful.
I know Gail has a positiveoutlook.
I hope it helps her.
It clearly brightens up everyonearound here, hearer and me.
Sean, thank you for joining us.
And uh I look forward to morediscussions together.
(24:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks so much for listening toLive Long and Well with Dr.
Bobby.
If you like this episode, pleaseprovide a review on Apple or
Spotify or wherever you listen.
If you want to continue thisjourney or want to receive my
newsletter on practical andscientific ways to improve your
health and longevity, pleasevisit me at Dr.
(25:22):
Bobby Livelong and Well.
That's Dr.
As N D R Bobby Live Long andWell.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com