Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to
Live Parkinson's Live an
Exceptional Life.
I'm your host, chrisKustenbader, and I've been
living an exceptional life withParkinson's for the past 15
years.
The mission of this podcast isto help as many people as
possible living with Parkinson'sto lead a great quality of life
.
Now, today, we're diving intosomething that many of you have
been asking, and that is whichexercises actually help slow
(00:33):
down Parkinson's diseaseprogression.
Not just what's helped you feelbetter today, but what may
change how your Parkinson'smoves forward.
So if you've ever wondered, isexercise just symptom relief or
can it actually slow the disease, then this episode is for you.
I'll walk you through thelatest clinical science, the
best types of movements toinclude how to build a safe
(00:56):
weekly plan and how to overcomesome of the common roadblocks
that hold us back.
And, before we jump in, if thispodcast adds value, later I'm
going to share with you how youcan get free resources, join my
newsletter and support theprogram and learn more about my
personal journey.
But for now, let's get intomovement, the science and how
you can start today to build anexercise routine that doesn't
(01:18):
just help, it fights back.
Okay, first, why does exercisematter?
Not just for strength or mood,but possibly for slowing
progression.
Now there's some growingcompelling evidence.
For example, there was a studytitled Clinical Trial Highlights
Aerobic Exercise forParkinson's Disease, and what it
(01:38):
did is it reviewed sixrandomized clinical trials
ranging from 28 to 370 peoplewith Parkinson's, and the
duration was eight weeks to 18months, and what the study
showed was that the outcomesshow that aerobic exercise
improves motor symptoms and mayslow clinical progression.
And then, in addition, therewas a meta-analysis called a
(02:01):
Symptomatic and meta-analysis oneffects of aerobic exercise
that was published in NPJParkinson's disease in 2022.
That found that aerobicexercise significantly improved
things like balance, gait speed,stride, step length and motor
function, based on the UPDRS-3scoring scale in people with
(02:25):
Parkinson's.
And then, finally, there wasanother long-term study called
Long-Term Effect of RegularPhysical Activity and Exercise
Habits in Parkinson's Diseasethat was published in Neurology
in 2024.
And what that study showed wasthat people who maintained
regular, vigorous exercise hadmore stable disease progression
(02:45):
over time.
Now I think that's prettyfascinating.
So why does this happen?
Well, some of the hypothesesare that exercise seems to
promote neuroplasticity Rememberwe talked about that in other
podcasts, but that's making newconnections in the brain.
Reduced inflammation could beanother contributing factor,
(03:06):
improved cardiovascular health,which helps support your brain
function, and then, in somestudies, augment neurotropic
factors like BDNF orbrain-derived neurotropic factor
, which I talked about inprevious podcasts.
It's like a fertilizer for yourbrain.
So the bottom line is thisExercise isn't just a filler and
(03:26):
it's just not something nice todo.
It's one of the few non-drugtools that we have in our
toolbox that can really helpwith potential disease-modifying
impact.
All right, so let's talk alittle bit about which exercises
are going to deliver the mostbang for the buck and how and
how much we need.
All right, now, here are someof the top categories of
(03:47):
exercises and what literaturesuggests, and then we'll give
you some practical examples andsome safety modifications,
because that's important too,because we're all in different
stages of progression.
So we want to make sure that wegive a broad range of safety
options as well, and then youwant to pick a mix that works
best for you.
Now, before I give these, I dowant to give a broad range of
safety options as well, and thenyou want to pick a mix that
works best for you.
Now, before I give these, I dowant to give a disclaimer that
(04:08):
before you start any exerciseprogram, please consult your
movement disorder specialist orneurologist and your primary
care physician to make sure thatthe exercise plan that you're
developing meets your personalspecific needs.
And then it's also important,if possible, to work with a
(04:28):
physical therapist that hasexperience with Parkinson's or a
certified physical trainer thathas experience with people with
Parkinson's as well.
All right, now that we've gotthat out of the way, let's talk
about number one, and that'saerobic exercise, or what we
call cardio.
So what is it?
Well, cardio is brisk walking,cycling, and that could be
(04:50):
either stationary bike, likeyou're taking a spin class I
teach pedaling for Parkinson's,and that's a great way to get a
cardiovascular workout or itcould be riding your bike out on
the road if your balance isgood, swimming bike out on the
road, if your balance is good.
Swimming, dancing, treadmill,walking, elliptical those would
(05:14):
all be examples of cardio.
So why does cardio help?
Well, as I mentioned earlier inthat meta-analysis that was
published in the NPGAParkinson's Disease Journal, it
showed that aerobic exercisesignificantly improves your gait
speed, your stride length, yourbalance and your motor function
compared to the control group.
And then there was anotherstudy that was called the SPARKS
trial, and I talked about thisin one of my earlier podcasts,
(05:37):
but the SPARKS trial stands forStudy in Parkinson's Disease of
Exercise of exercise and thatwas completed in 2017, and it
involved 128 newly diagnosedParkinson's patients that were
not yet on Parkinson'smedications like Levodopa.
And what they did is theycompared high-intensity
treadmill exercise where thepeople got their heart rate up
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between 80% to 85% of theirmaximum heart rate, versus
low-intensity, versus control,and what they found was that
over six months, the controlgroup worsened slightly, while
the high intensity group stayedmore stable.
So that begs the question, thenhow much aerobic exercise do we
need?
(06:19):
Now?
Many studies suggest thatmoderate to high-intensity
exercise should be done aboutthree to five times per week and
sessions should last anywherefrom 30 to 50 minutes.
Now the SPARKS 3 protocol, forinstance, uses four days a week
at 30 minutes per session.
Now some modifications forsafety.
(06:42):
So if high-intensity feelsoverwhelming or risky to start
out, start small.
We all have to start somewhere,so it's better to start slowly
and build into it than it is togo all out and then quit after
the first day because you're sosore.
So one way to start out slow isjust do 20 minutes of moderate
(07:03):
pace and throw some rest breaksin there.
You can use the talk test.
At a moderate effort you cantalk, and when you're at a
really high effort, you can onlyget a few words out.
Now again, make sure you getthe okay from your doctor,
especially if you have any heartor lung issues.
All right, next up is strengthtraining.
(07:24):
And what is strength training,you may be asking.
Well, that would include thingslike resistance bands, free
weights or dumbbells, weightmachines.
So there's a lot of differentmachines out there that you can
use.
And then body weight exercises,and they could include squats,
push-ups, and you can dopush-ups on your knees, you can
do push-ups against the wall andthen sit to stand where you're
(07:47):
sitting in a chair and you standup.
Those would all be examples ofbody weight exercises.
Now why do they help?
Well, number one is theyimprove your muscle strength.
Well, that's pretty obvious.
That's why we call it strengthtraining.
But it also helps with yourposture, your stability, because
if you have a strong core, andthat's going to help with your
(08:07):
center of gravity, that's goingto make you more stable, it's
going to help reduce the risk offalls.
And then strong muscles alsohelp with your movement speed,
and then they're going to helpreduce some of the rigidity that
you feel and then possibly theymight help with some motor
decline as well.
Now some studies show thatcombining aerobic and strength
(08:33):
training gives the best resultson motor function and gait than
just doing aerobic exercises byitself.
The actual studies, while themeta-analysis focused more on
aerobic, many of the clinicaltrials that were done included
the mixed programs, where theymixed aerobic and strength
training.
So how often should you dostrength training?
Well, it's recommended that twoto three times per week, and
you want to do non-consecutivedays, so maybe you want to do
(08:55):
Tuesday, thursday, saturday,something like that, or Monday,
wednesday, friday, because youwant to allow your muscles time
to recover.
All right, the next type ofexercise, number three, is
balance and agility.
Now, what would this include?
It's things like tai chi yoga,doing some agility drills like
(09:17):
sidesteps or obstacle courses.
Now a couple of the Parkinson'sprograms that I participate in.
We walk on stepping stoneswhere you can use poles to help
for balance.
We do a lot of moving throughcones, stepping over cones,
stepping over little bars.
So those would be examples oflittle obstacle courses Could do
(09:37):
.
Dual task.
Walking would be another thing,where you're walking and doing
another task at the same time,and that might include saying
the months of the year backwards, or counting by threes to 60,
or spelling, or doing thealphabet and saying every other
letter.
So it's using cognitive andexercise functions at the same
(09:59):
time.
And then dance is another wayto improve your agility as well,
as there's some martial artsout there that taekwondo, or
some of those type of thingsthat you can do as well.
Boxing is also another greatway to work on your balance and
agility.
Why is balance and agilityimportant?
(10:19):
Because balance is one of thebiggest challenges that we all
face.
We all know that falls aregoing to lead to injury and then
they also lead to fear.
If you don't have good balance,then you become fearful that
you're going to fall and thenyou start to limit your social
activities and then you becomesocially isolated.
So fear and isolation are bigconcerns if you don't have good
(10:42):
balance.
And there was a meta-analysisdone that looked at aerobic
exercise and what it found wasthat it improved scores on
balance tests and, for instance,the timed up and go, where you
sit in a chair, you stand up andyou walk.
But also doing balance andagility is going to help with
training for quick adjustments,so that if you have to make a
(11:03):
quick adjustment or in reactiontimes like, for instance, I have
a boxer dog and I had two boxerdogs, one passed away, but
Katie, my one boxer dog, lovesto come up and stand behind me
and if I'm not paying attentionI turn around too quickly and
then I have to make a quickreaction so that I don't fall
over or knock her down.
(11:23):
So balance exercises I do everyday because it's going to help
me.
It helps me with those quickreaction times.
And then next up is flexibilityand mobility.
So what does this include?
This includes stretching, andthere's a couple of different
types of stretching wherethere's dynamic stretching and
then there's static stretching,where you hold a particular
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stretch for an extended periodof time.
Maybe you're doing a hamstringstretch and you hold that for 30
seconds.
Yoga is another good way towork on flexibility and mobility
Gentle joint mobilizations,where you're rolling your ankles
, you're doing shoulder rolls,you're doing hip movements,
(12:06):
movements and some rotationalmovements.
Those are all good forflexibility and movements.
So why is it important that youwork on flexibility?
Well, because Parkinson'scauses stiffness and rigidity
and it's going to reduce ifyou're not moving your joints,
it's going to reduce your jointrange.
For instance, if you're notmoving your shoulders, you can
(12:29):
get frozen shoulder, and thenit's also going to lead to
posture issues.
One of the things that wealready experience in
Parkinson's is your shouldersstart to roll in and you start
to hunch over.
So it's important to do widechest stretches for flexibility,
to keep your chest open, as anexample.
And then flexibility is goingto help keep you limber.
(12:51):
It's going to help witheveryday functions like reaching
, turning, bending, and it'sgoing to help reduce discomfort,
because if you're stiff, it'svery uncomfortable.
So if you're constantly doingflexibility and stretching
exercises, it's going to helpkeep you limber and help reduce
some of that discomfort.
Now, while flexibility alonemay not slow the progression as
(13:14):
much as like aerobic or strengthtraining, it's essential for
your quality of life and it'sgoing to enable you to do some
of the exercises more safelywithout having to worry about,
you know, pulling a muscle orsomething like that.
And then research comparingaerobic versus strength showed
that aerobic had effects onbrain connectivity and less
brain atrophy, while stretchingdid not in those particular
(13:37):
metrics that they studied.
So that's a personal example.
And then, finally, number fivein terms of exercise.
Now, we talked about aerobic,we talked about strength
training, we talked aboutbalance and agility, flexibility
and mobility, and the lastone's going to be high-intensity
interval training, what theycall HIIT, h-i-i-t, and what is
it?
It's real short bursts of higheffort.
(14:00):
So it could be example would bea fast pace on an uphill walk,
or you're doing a sprint for 30seconds or 45 seconds and then
you take a 15 second break.
Those would be examples of somehigh intensity interval
training.
And then so it's a quick burstof energy followed by rest or
(14:23):
periods of low effort, and youcan do it on the treadmill, you
can do it while you're cycling,you can even do fast walking.
You can be walking at a normalpace and then speed up for 30 to
45 seconds and then rest for 15to 30 seconds.
And you can do that whetherit's on walking flat, going
(14:44):
upstairs or hills, and some ofthe strongest signals in trials
come from high-intensityexercises.
Both the SPARKS and the SPARKS 3study suggest that
high-intensity aerobic exercise,where you get your heart rate
up to 80% to 85% of maximum, isgoing to slow the motor
progression more thanmoderate-intensity exercises.
(15:05):
Now, so how often should you dothese.
Well, some of the data showsthat.
Maybe one to two times per weekinitially, just until you get
your body accustomed to doing it, and you want to mix that in
with your moderate aerobicworkouts and then monitor to see
how you're doing.
Now, one of the things that youdon't want to do is push
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through the pain.
If you feel pain, discomfort,dizziness, chest pain, stop
immediately and then respect therest.
Ensure that you do goodwarm-ups and good cool-downs.
Now, before attempting any typeof high-intensity interval
training, it's important thatyou get clearance from your
doctors, because it's somethingwhere you're getting your heart
(15:47):
rate up to 80% to 85% of itsmaximum.
So please, please, please, makesure that you get approval from
your doctor before you attemptany type of high intensity
interval training.
All right, so now that you knowwhat kinds of exercise, let's
talk about how you put them alltogether in a plan that you can
stick with, because you want topick things that you enjoy,
(16:09):
because if you don't enjoy them,you're not going to do them and
then you're not going to getthe benefits of exercise.
So let's talk about how we canbuild a plan that you can stick
with and this is just a sampleplan and you know it's important
that you work with your doctorto help develop a plan and a
physical therapy and or aphysical therapist and a
certified personal trainerthat's experienced in people
(16:32):
with Parkinson's.
So, for instance, this is againis a sample plan, sample one
week plan, and this could be forsomeone with mild to moderate
stage that you've been clearedby your doctor.
So Monday you might want to dosome type of moderate aerobic
exercise like a brisk walk withsome intervals.
You do that for 30 to 40minutes.
Tuesday maybe you do strengthtraining.
(16:54):
You do some upper and lowerbody, so you do some chest
presses, you do some shoulderpresses, you do some bicep curls
, some tricep work, and then youcould do some chair squats and
push-ups and maybe some lunges,and you do those for 30 minutes,
plus maybe some flexibility andmobility work included in there
(17:18):
for 15 minutes.
Then Wednesday maybe you dobalance and agility and you take
a yoga or a Tai Chi class andone of the things that's nice
about the group fitness classesis that the instructors will
modify the exercises so that youcan participate and you want to
do those for 30 to 45 minutesand then maybe Thursday, once
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you're up to speed.
You could do some aerobicexercise with some high
intensity interval training orlight intervals for 20 to 30
minutes, and then Friday do somestrength and mobility training
and stretching, and thenSaturday maybe you do some
longer aerobic exercise, likemaybe you go for a long walk or
you swim for a half a mile oryou go to a dance class and then
(18:04):
maybe throw in some balancedrills and then Sunday you want
to rest or just do some gentlestretching and mobility
exercises and just recover.
So that would be just as anexample sample plan.
So that's going to help usbuild some consistency.
So start with what you can.
Everybody has to startsomewhere.
So start small and thengradually build into it.
(18:27):
Whether it takes you a month,two months, it doesn't matter.
Just each week try to add justa little bit more and you'll
start to see progress and thenyou're going to turn around and
really be proud of yourself athow far you've come.
So start small Even two sessionsa week is better than doing
nothing at all and then again dowhat you enjoy.
(18:48):
And then, if you like music,dance might be something for you
.
If you like the outdoors, thengo for a walk.
If you like doing classes.
Maybe do a group fitness classand some people just like to
exercise with a buddy.
So find a buddy and dosomething that you both like and
then try to keep a log, if youcan Write in there how you feel,
(19:09):
what you did, how long you'vedone it for, and then what type
of improvements you saw.
And then you start to look backover that and you say, wow, I'm
really proud of myself.
Look how far I've come and lookwhat I can do now.
So those are all important tokeep in mind and so it is
important to track your progressso you can do a baseline where
(19:29):
you measure.
Maybe do a couple simple thingslike timed up and go how long
does it take you to stand up andthen walk 10 feet?
You could do a six-minute walktest how far can you walk in six
minutes and then three monthslater measure it again.
All those things are ways thatyou can look at how well you're
progressing and then also lookat how's it affecting your mood,
(19:53):
how's it affecting your sleepquality and how's it affecting
your energy.
Hopefully you're going to seeimprovements in all those.
So it's important to dotracking.
And again, one thing I do wantto remind everybody is medical
clearance.
So check with your neurologist,pt and your primary care
physician before you start orbefore you start upping the
(20:14):
intensity, and then they'regoing to keep in mind some of
the comorbidities that you mighthave.
Do you have arthritis, do youhave diabetes?
Do you have heart disease?
Do you have COPD?
All those come into play andyour doctor is going to be able
to help you with that.
And then try to work with aphysical therapist or a
certified physical trainer,because they're going to be able
(20:34):
to help you build an exerciseplan that's right for you All
right.
Now, one of the things that weall struggle with, and that's
barriers.
I don't care who you are,there's going to be days you're
going, oh, I don't feel likedoing this, or oh, I don't feel
very good today.
There's going to be days likethat.
And then you know, to be honestwith you there, I have days
(20:54):
like that myself.
So there's some days where mybalance is off and I say what I
had planned I'm not going to beable to do, but I'm still going
to do something and I'm going todo it the best I can.
So we all face challenges andbarriers.
It's just, and we may have tomake modifications and it's
important that we stayconsistent.
So how do we break some ofthese barriers?
No-transcript walk and then inthe evening do another 10-minute
(21:44):
walk so I can break my exerciseinto smaller chunks, and then
I'm also going to try toschedule my exercise when I have
the most energy.
Now me no-transcript importantto prioritize rest and then eat
(22:26):
well at the same time.
Now, if you're a person that hasfreezing of gait or rigidity or
pain, you can use visual cuesto get going, so they make
lights that you can focus on tohelp you.
Where you can count one, two,three go those type of things.
If you have a rigidity and pain, it's important to really take
(22:48):
a lot of time to warm up andstretch first before you go
diving into any type of exercise, and then also, if you have
freezing of gait or you haverigidity, use assistance.
So use railings, use walkingpoles, spend time exercising in
a chair All those things areimportant or see a physical
therapist, but it's important touse tools and assistive devices
(23:12):
that are going to help you beable to exercise but do so in a
safe manner.
And then motivation andconsistency, and this is one
that we all run into it's oh, Idon't.
I just don't feel like doing ittoday, but it's important that
you maintain consistency.
So one of the ways you can dothat is to find a buddy that's
(23:33):
going to push you to beconsistent.
Or do a fitness class, becausethere's always accountability.
People are going to say like,for instance, I teach the
peddling for Parkinson's classand when someone's not there we
get concerned, and especially ifthey're not there the second
day, we really become concerned.
So everybody calls and says hey, bill, or hey Frank, or hey
(23:54):
Susan, we haven't seen you,where are you?
And that helps them stayconsistent because they feel
like they're part of the groupand that everybody cares about
them.
So make sure that you try tofind a buddy or you're in a
group exercise class, becauseit's going to help you stay
consistent, but it's also goingto help other people as well.
And then you could use apps orreminders, schedule exercise
(24:16):
like you would any otherdoctor's appointment or dentist
appointment.
Put it on your calendar andschedule a time every day saying
I'm going to exercise at thisparticular time.
I'm going to set an app and I'mgoing to set a reminder that's
going to remind me to do it andthen keep your sessions
meaningful.
One of the things I like to dois I love listening to music
while I exercise.
So if I'm walking outside orI'm walking on a treadmill or
(24:39):
I'm doing strength training, I'malways listening to music
because that gets me motivatedand it gets me pumped up, so
that's another way that you canstay consistent.
Plus, I do outdoor walking andI love being outdoors, so that's
another way to do it.
And then, finally, fear offalling is another barrier and
safety concerns.
So one of the things you do,you start with balance exercises
(25:00):
in a safe environment, and thatcould be standing, holding on
to a firm stationary object.
It could be using poles, anyother type of assistive devices
that you need, sitting in achair, and so use supports when
you need them.
And then also wear goodfootwear.
You want to make sure thatyou're wearing non-slip,
(25:20):
non-skid shoes so that you'renot slipping and sliding all
over the place and potentiallyfalling, all right.
So those are some of the commonbarriers that we run into and
how you can possibly and some ofthe ways that you can work
through those.
And then, finally, let's talkabout some real life inspiration
, and I wanted to share a storyfrom someone in the Parkinson's
community and I'll just fornamesake I'll just call her Jane
(25:43):
and Jane was diagnosed aboutthree years ago with early
Parkinson's and she felt herwalking was slower, that she
felt more rigid in the morningand she was worried about losing
ground.
She was you know, I can't dothe things I used to do.
I can't keep up.
So she started with smallchanges.
She started doing two walks aweek and then started with some
basic strength training at home,doing just bodyweight squats.
(26:06):
She was sitting in the chair,getting out of the chair, she
was doing reaching exercises,twisting exercises, and then she
started to notice that herenergy was improving, she was
becoming more physically fit andthen pretty soon, over time,
she added some HIIT training oneday a week.
And then she also decided shewas going to try a group fitness
class and she went to a Tai Chiclass for balance and she
(26:29):
started stretching on a dailybasis and what she found was
that after six months she toldme that her neurologist said her
motor scores had barely changed, so she wasn't losing ground,
and that made her really excited.
Where she had talked to acouple of her friends that
seemed that their symptoms wereseemed to be worsening that
weren't exercising.
So she was really seeing thebenefits of exercise and it
(26:51):
really got her motivated andexcited to do more.
And she said she felt stronger,she felt more confident, less
rigid and she was able to do allthe things that she wanted to
do on a daily basis.
Now she said she didn't feelperfect every day and I told her
look, I don't feel perfectevery day either, but she said
she feels so much betterexercising than if she would
have just stayed sitting in thehouse not doing anything.
(27:14):
So that's the power of beingintentional when you exercise
and then doing it on aconsistent basis.
So you put those two thingstogether and it's going to
provide great benefits andyou're going to be able to reap
a great harvest at the end.
So let's wrap this up and talkabout some of the key takeaways.
(27:34):
Number one exercise is medicine.
It's just not how you feel now,but possibly how your
Parkinson's is going to progress.
Exercise is going to bebeneficial and it's going to
help you in the long run.
So the more you exercise, themore benefits you're going to
get out of it.
Number two is a key takeaway isyou want to mix up your routine.
You want to do a mix of allthose things that we talked
(27:57):
about Aerobic exercise, strengthtraining, balance and agility,
flexibility and then, if you'recapable, maybe throw in some
HIIT training, because each ofthem is going to offer you
unique benefits that if you juststuck with one, you're not
going to reap the benefits ofincluding a mix Plus.
That way you don't get boredand it helps with consistency as
(28:19):
well.
Number three you want toremember to start small and
build up.
Remember, consistency is goingto matter more than perfect
sessions.
You don't have to be perfect,you just have to show up and
give your best, no matter howyou feel, because there's going
to be days you don't feel great,but at least if you show up and
do the best you can, that'sbetter than showing up and
(28:42):
trying to be perfect.
And then, remember, you want totrack and adjust and get
support from other people.
So use some measures, ask forprofessional advice from
physical therapists or certifiedtrainers, and then join
communities like group fitnessclasses or pedaling for
Parkinson's or rock steadyboxing.
All those things are going tohelp you in the long run, to
(29:05):
help to slow your progressiondown.
Now, if this episode adds value,I'd ask you to please visit
liveparkinsonscom and subscribeto the free monthly newsletter,
where I share some moreresources and information, such
as webinars, seminars and somethings that are going to come up
, as well as what's new inclinical studies and new
(29:25):
medications that are on themarket.
And also there I've created abunch of free resources on the
site that you can download and,for instance, balance exercises
to help you improve your balance, and then there's a Parkinson's
medication and symptom trackeron there that's going to help
you as well.
Plus, there's a number ofarticles on different topics
(29:46):
that can help you.
And then, if you feel that thepodcast is helping you, consider
supporting the program if, byvisiting my ko-fi page at
ko-ficom live parkinson's, evena small donation really helps me
keep generating content, doingresearch and then offering these
free tools.
And then, to learn more about mypersonal 15-year journey with
parkinson's, you can pick up mybook spectacular life four
(30:07):
strategies for living withparkinson's disease that's
available on amazon, and it goesdeeper into how I built my own
Parkinson's.
You can pick up my bookSpectacular Life Four Strategies
for Living with Parkinson'sDisease that's available on
Amazon, and it goes deeper intohow I built my own daily
exercise routine, what some ofmy mental strategies were and
how I use relationships to helpme on my Parkinson's journey
Everything that's going to helpyou support your quality of life
(30:27):
.
So I want to thank you forspending time with me and
remember you want to keep moving, keep believing in yourself and
keep living spectacularly.
Believe in yourself because Ibelieve in you.
Now I'm going to want to thankyou for listening and I hope to
see you on future episodes andtake care and thanks again,
thank you.