May 28, 2025 • 52 mins
McArthur Krishna graduated from BYU with both an undergraduate and masters degree. She co-owned an award-winning ideas marketing firm for a decade until she retired, got married, and moved to India. With church a plane ride away, she started spending home church time researching and writing children’s books. Over years she has written 19 books, six co-authored with Bethany Brady Spalding at Deseret Book including A Girl’s Guide to Heavenly Mother and A Boy’s Guide to Heavenly Mother.
Along the way she has coordinated some of the first art featuring women to be hung in the LDS Conference Center (Kathleen Peterson’s art from the Girls Who Choose God series), commissioned and curated the first art show focused on Heavenly Mother with artists from around the world, and her own art was selected for the Church’s International Art competition. The art (by Caitlin Connelly) from their book “Our Heavenly Family, our Earthly Families” was the first art portraying Heavenly Mother published at Deseret Book. After its release, the LDS church purchased a 12’x8’ piece for their permanent collection— and it currently hangs at the Church History Museum on Temple Square. The L. Tom Perry Special Collection at BYU Library has asked for her manuscripts, photos, and life journals so that her seminal work on elevating women can be available to posterity.
McArthur believes that unflinching hope, a lot of hours working with friends, and wifi can change the world… bottomless guacamole helps too. She’s (always) got more in the works to live up to her favorite titles of Holy Harasser and Hogwash Eradicator.
"A spiritually sovereign person is a person who knows they can turn to God, get personal rev and live by it no matter what. For me being spiritually sovereign involves God." - McArthur Krishna
Connect with McArthur: @mcarthurkrishna_creates
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today I get to share a wonderfulinterview I had with MacArthur.
Krishna MacArthur has been in the space of normalizing talking
about Heavenly Mother, about thefeminine divine, and how that
has the power or the potential to shift so many things within
the LDS faith. And I'm going to extrapolate and
(00:23):
say within all faiths, really. I had been wanting to have a
conversation with her for some time because once my kiddo came
out as transgender, I was put inthis place of what do I of
questioning or bringing into curiosity my understanding of
gender, gender identity, gender expression, what sex assigned at
(00:45):
birth meant, and so on. And so I was able to have a
fantastic conversation and this is one of the things that we
were able to talk about. So I'm excited to share that
with you. Along with how MacArthur feels
about spiritual sovereignty. It is a life skill, something
you can practice, something you can learn.
As she says, a spiritually sovereign person is a person who
(01:07):
knows they can turn to God, get personal revelation, and live by
it no matter what. I'm Megan Skidmore.
For 2 1/2 years I have been talking about evolving faith
journeys. I started to tire of the
(01:29):
heaviness of this focus. I had the clear message come
through. It is time for Beyond the Shadow
of Doubt podcast to evolve into living Beyond the Shadow of
Doubt podcast with the same vulnerability and unapologetic
authenticity. I will be focusing on the joy in
this journey, the life and the living that comes on the other
side of maybe on the other side of what's possible.
(01:51):
I want to talk about claiming spiritual sovereignty and
becoming your own captain of your vessel.
Let's celebrate releasing but nolonger alliance for you and
connecting with your higher power and honor expanding your
energy field to make room for all things new.
(02:15):
There is a lot going on in the world today.
What practices do you have in place that help you recenter,
get grounded, connect to your inner wisdom and remember you
are powerful. On the 1st Friday of each month,
I host a coaching session that anyone is welcome to join.
I invite you to get a glimpse into my world and what I do.
(02:36):
When this monthly call, I will guide participants in what I
term Raise your vibration sessions.
Essentially, I'm teaching you toincrease your awareness of your
energy and your body and the messages available to you.
I would be so honored to have you on the call.
Simply register at the link in the show notes.
(03:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to today's episode of
Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt.
I'm Megan Skidmore, your host, and today I'm so pleased to have
MacArthur Krishna with me. We've connected a few times in
the past and I'm thrilled. I know you're so busy.
You've recently released, you mentioned before I hit record 3
books and we'll get to those in a minute.
(03:23):
And you make the rounds, you make you have your own circuit,
I guess, of speaking opportunities both in person and
on podcasts. And I'm imagining book launches
and such. So thank you for being here and
making time out of your schedule.
It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
Thanks for having me. And I love that you're in your
(03:43):
car. I mean that is.
Looking at the video, I'm in my car.
That is the joy of the world we live in.
Like that's yeah, we can do things on the go.
So just take a moment. Some of my listeners will know
who you are and some will not. If you'll just take a few
moments and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your
(04:05):
background, where you're from, you know, including your faith
background, your family, maybe include some of your
professional pursuits and what not.
Just all those things that make you you OK?
My highlight? The Reader's Digest version.
I have written 20 some books. Most of those are an effort to
(04:28):
provide a world that I would like to see happen for my
daughters. I have three daughters.
I grew up in rural West Virginia, which I think I like
to blame for my stubborn streak because we have the state motto
of Mountaineers are always free.And so I I lay all blame on my
stubborn streak of growing up amongst a group of people who
(04:49):
really just wanted to do their own thing.
I come from a very robust and loving family.
I have 5 brothers and two sisters and I actually was
speaking with a therapist recently and the person I was
sitting next to introduced myself as oh she's Christian.
(05:10):
And the therapist went, oh, and I, I laughed and I actually had
to immediately stop her because while I understand that people
have had that oh, journey of Christianity, honestly, my
Christian journey has been really powerfully good and, and
I want to honor that. And so I feel like so much of
(05:30):
the things that make me who I am, how I see the world, how I
either do care for others or expect I want to be the person
who cares for others come from the faith that my parents handed
down to me and the faith that they so abundantly live.
And so I feel like the faith that I carry with me has been a
true gift, but maybe it's also because that faith came with
(05:53):
that healthy dose of independence.
And so I had parents who specifically my mom, who taught
me that she could not prepare mefor every life thing that may
happen. She could only prepare me to
practice and learn and just default into trusting God.
And so from a very young age, mymom, we have this joke among my
(06:14):
family that it's two out of three, two out of three times we
pray about something when you'retrying to decide what to do.
And my mom taught us that we 100% could expect God to to tell
us and to converse with us and be aware of us and love us.
And I think of that really strong rooting in God's will
prepared me for some of my life paths that took me much
(06:36):
different places than what I would have expected.
They have. They've taken you overseas.
Yeah. And I went to BYU twice.
I dated wonderful, amazing LDS men who I have nothing but
respect for. But when I prayed about who to
marry, I got put on a different path.
(06:57):
And and that path then led me overseas.
It led me to a place where church wasn't available.
So before the church was doing home church, by necessity, the
congregation that was closest tome was a plane ride away and.
Yeah, wow. I started at first trying to
take the train, but when the train gets delayed because
(07:18):
you've been on the train for 12 hours and then 16 hours and then
20 hours, and you're looking at your watch and you're realizing
the soccer meeting has started and then soccer meeting has
ended and then the second block has started.
Yeah. Pretty soon I realized the train
was not going to be my option. So I would literally fly to
church once a month. That's how I got to church.
(07:38):
And I remember crying, crying ingratitude to be at church.
And the kindness of people at church was, was very real.
I was standing in the bathroom one Sunday and I was crying
because I was happy to be there,but I was also crying because I
had a toddler. And I got nothing out of the
meeting, right, because I was too busy juggling the toddler.
And a woman came in and said, what's going on?
(07:58):
What can I do for you? And I just said, I'm really
frustrated, right? That I came all this way.
I took a plane to get here. I put all this oomph to show up
and like, I'm not being spiritually fed.
I'm chasing my kid. And she said, you know what?
I would offer to chase it for you, chase her for you.
But I'm actually teaching the second block.
And I said, that's fine, it's OK, blah, blah, blah.
She said, no, no, no, you come into my classroom, we're going
(08:20):
to make this work. And so while she stood at the
further room and taught a lesson, she had a my kid white
board markers and put her on a chair next to her and stood by
her gardener because she was a toddler and let her draw on the
white board while she taught thelesson.
That's fantastic. Just so I could have a moment of
spiritual lift, right? Right.
(08:42):
And then living in India at the time, yeah.
Yeah, and the closest congregation to me was in Delhi.
Wow. I lived in rural India.
OK. So I think the the joy of
especially being part of a sisterhood at church and women
who really look out for one another has always been really
powerful. In fact, when I moved to India,
(09:03):
a woman sent me a message and she said, hey, I've been
assigned to be your visiting teacher.
OK. She was back in America and she
just said I'm going to be your visiting teacher.
So she sent me the Relief Society news.
It was full of tidbits about people I loved and she'd catch
me all up what was going and we would chit chat here and there.
I didn't find out until years later.
(09:25):
No one called her. She called herself, How did she
What? She knew that I'm going to be
moving abroad and I was going tohave my whole foundation shaken.
She'd been a person because of her career path had been bounced
in and out of international places and she knew that I was
going to be ungrounded. And so she assigned herself to
be my visiting teacher and she kept track of me for years in
(09:50):
rural India. I love that incredibly.
Beautiful. I love when folks don't wait for
an invitation to be extended or an assignment or in the LDS
faith, it's, it's referred to asa calling, right?
And I think that epitomizes the true spirit of Christ, like love
(10:11):
and service. And it's, it's the embodiment of
it, I believe. So I think it's truly loving,
truly being brothers and sisters.
Shocker. A woman who didn't only only
been in a ward a few months was moving recently again.
And I said, hey, I'll come over and help you and I'll round up
(10:31):
some other people. And so I just kind of put out
the call and a whole bunch of people said, yeah, we'll come
and help you. And it was funny because then
the Bishop calls the husband andsays, hey, I heard you're moving
this week. Do you need any help?
And he's like, actually, the Relief Society is already here,
right? And the relief decipher, if you
don't know, is our women's organization, right?
The women were already on the ground, already doing what
needed to be done. And we calculated later five of
(10:53):
us were there and that and we worked for three hours.
So I was like 15 human hours of work that if this woman had
would have had to do on her own,it would have taken her two full
days back-to-back. But something that a handful of
women could just knock out in anafternoon, right?
And it was fun. Oh my gosh.
We laughed and giggled and talked trash all the way through
(11:15):
the day. I mean, it was an absolute
delight to quote UN quote serve,right?
We're really just not like sisters for just being a
sisterhood. Thank you for sharing that.
I, I agree. It's, it's so important to
connect in ways that we feel called to and not, not wait for
something outside of ourselves. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't consider when asked, but but definitely look within,
(11:40):
feel within. For me, that's been a huge part
of as I've reclaimed my, I call it my spiritual sovereignty.
Right on my own, my own journey here.
Yeah, I know you talk and share a lot about the feminine divine.
That's been a huge focus of your, not your only focus, but
(12:01):
you've dedicated a lot of time, a lot of research, a lot of
study, a lot of your writing focuses on the feminine divine,
Heavenly Mother. I'm curious to know.
One of the questions I asked my guest is when did you begin to
realize that maybe some of your belief system wasn't meeting
(12:22):
your spiritual needs or wasn't aligning with what you felt on
the inside? What felt aligned?
It's that's the only way I know how to describe it.
It's just something that your inner knowing, your inner being
just new, you know, and can you share with us about a time when
(12:42):
this. Happened I was 12 actually the
first time I remember this feeling OK and I read a book.
Yep. I read a book by Carolyn Pearson
called My Turn on Earth, and it talks about that we had a king
and queen, and all of a sudden it hit my brain that our
theology of a heavenly mother was real, that I had a mother
(13:04):
waiting for me who loved me, andI had an amazing earthly mother.
So it wasn't that I particularlyfelt a lack of this, but all of
a sudden I had this very clear understanding that the supreme
beings of the universe were my heavenly parents.
And that rejiggered a lot of things.
So Mary Daley, who is not LDS, said when God is male, then male
(13:27):
is God. And I can look around in our
world and I can see that the world was often based on that
idea. I don't know if you've heard of
a book called Defined by Design,but it talks about how so many
things in the Western world wereliterally designed to a certain
male structure. I would say so.
(13:49):
The height of escalator stairs, for example, medical trials
didn't include women till 1993, right?
Women couldn't get a bank account on their own name until
1974. And so they're all of these ways
that the world was set up to be functional with men.
And this is not at all to pit men and women against each
other. That's not where I'm going with
(14:10):
this. But it's all of a sudden you
understand that you're living ina world that held up men as the
main character and women as the support role to enable the main
character. And to realize that that model
is not our parents model. To realize that model is
actually part of the fallen world model.
(14:32):
That our Heavenly parents didn'tever want their sons and
daughters to interact that way, I think is really, really
significant. In fact, our theology in the LDS
church talks about Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother
walking side by side. Side by side is not a hierarchy.
That is partnership. So when you say this is not our
parents model, you mean our heavenly parents.
(14:54):
You're not talking to necessarily to our specific
earthly parents. They're part of, I mean our.
Heavenly Parents. Subject to this fallen world
model, just like we are. Yeah, right.
So Emma Smith actually had a revelation given to her where
she was told to put off the things of the world.
And in that same revelation she was called to preach and teach
(15:15):
and exhort the people of the church.
Now, that time, women did not preach and teach the churches.
That was not a role that was considered acceptable by women.
So when I think about the Scripture and the Doctrine
Covenants, I think about the reordering of defining that the
world is functioning like this. But this is not how God wants it
(15:36):
to function. It's not a divine model.
And so her being called to use her talents and abilities was
meant that she had to lay off the bias of the world to step
into this in a completely different way.
And for me, that was really powerful.
So I had this very clear sensibility when I was about 12
and then I started to bump into things, right?
(15:59):
Yeah. In fact, I had someone tell me,
well meaning, that they were afraid that when I found out
that women were subject to men in the temple, that I would be
deeply hurt when I learned the reality.
OK, what's fascinating about that to me is when the person
(16:21):
told me that I thought, I know this.
I know what my Heavenly Parents have taught me about this.
I am not a second class citizen.I do not believe that they want
women subject to men. This is not how I think the
divine model works. What's fascinating is actually
in the eldest faith, you know that that has changed.
(16:42):
The language is specifically a mediated relationship for women
to mediate with their husband toget to God has changed.
Women absolutely have the right to go to God.
In fact, President Nelson said in the last General conference
that women should have confidence and stepping forward
to God. Not just women, men should too,
of course, but he's also talked about that women needing to have
(17:06):
spiritual ability and spiritual connection and spiritual
authority and need to speak up and speak out.
And so I, I want, I want so muchfor our Heavenly Parents model
and what prophet is talking about to be something that sinks
so deeply within our souls that when we reject the model of the
(17:28):
world, it feels like coming home.
Yeah, feels like it's aligned with our doctrine and really
strong and powerful ways. So I'm hoping you can speak to
this next idea. Whenever someone realizes that
their path is, is the fork that you're going down now, the pivot
(17:51):
that you've now taken, whether you sought after it or not.
I have found most people don't go necessarily looking for it.
It's because something new information is presented with
them, to them and kind of sends them on a path they weren't
expecting. A lot can come up, but you
already talked about a woman whosaid she was afraid for when you
were going to go to the temple and what that experience might
(18:13):
be like for you. When you think about, I'm kind
of speaking collectively here. We're from a similar generation.
I think about obstacles or struggles that come up.
And for me, one of the things that's been particularly
difficult is this change happened so slowly, right?
(18:36):
Those that grew up with the way things were in their day and in
their age. And we're taught that though
that's the way that it is and that's the way you know from God
and, and all of that. And they're very resistant to
opening their hearts, opening their minds, trying to see
(18:58):
things from a different point ofview.
I'm not saying that they don't or won't, but it's one thing to
be loved or seen just for who you are versus one thing to be
loved or seen from a place of almost out of tolerance or out
(19:18):
of, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do.
This is what I'm taught I need to do.
I need to be loving and accepting regardless of what
this person believes or doesn't believe.
Does that make sense? What I'm what I'm saying?
How have you navigated that? Yeah.
One of the things I think is so important about the Doctor of
(19:39):
Mother is it changes the nature,the nature of the relationship
between humans and deity. So humans in deity historically
have been worshipping a king, right?
So that makes other humans mutual subjects to the king.
When we add in Heavenly Mother to the mix and we create these
familial relationships, we understand that deity and heaven
(20:01):
and our future are about relationships and that everyone
truly is our brother and sister.So I think all of us have
tendencies to other other people.
To make them be the other. We see the ways that we're
similar and different. I forevermore we'll be judged.
Because when I lived in Delhi, Isaw a woman sitting on a row
(20:24):
right in front of me and she hada bunch of kids and I had one
biological at that time. And I thought, I'm sure we don't
have anything to talk about. I'm sure we don't have anything
in common, and truth be told is that she became one of my
dearest friends when I lived there.
And like the judgment that I hadon her is shame on me, right?
That I immediately othered her because of the differences
(20:47):
instead of recognizing that those differences could be a
strength in our relationship. That I had things to offer her
and she had things to offer me. And I think that the idea of
understanding that God is familyis really significant because
that means that instead of having this obligation to love
one another, we have this baked in well to tap into, to say
(21:08):
these are truly my brothers and sisters even when they are
different than I am. And I think that reorientation
of God is particularly powerful right now in our society.
So I hope this doesn't catch youoff guard.
Tell me more about that, particularly at the intersection
of those who are our brothers and sisters and loved ones and
(21:33):
our LGBTQ plus in their identity.
What are your thoughts on that? Because I love what you're
saying, that God is family. So one of the books that we just
wrote, The Mother in Heaven, a gospel topics essay study guide,
we wanted to have a really wide range of voices.
And Tom Kristofferson was one ofthose voices.
(21:54):
And I said to him, Tom, you're agay man.
I don't understand that world atall.
I have not experienced that. So I truly love Tom and we're
dear friends, but I don't pretend to understand his world.
And I said I would love for you to write an essay in this book
so you can tell me what does Heavenly Mother matter to you?
How does this how has this played in your world?
(22:15):
Because I don't presume to understand what it means or
doesn't mean to you. And he graciously did.
And so we have an essay from Tomin in our book.
But I think that one of the easyways to other someone is to
other their LGBTQ, to other their faith, to other their
political beliefs, to other their life choices, and LGBTQ is
(22:40):
obviously one of the ways that happens.
I think if our LGBTQ brothers and sisters knew that they were
loved and welcomed in the familyof God, that that would be a
powerfully, I don't think relieving is quite the right
word, like a swaddling or a loving or a holding almost
beheld by the idea of a familialGod, right?
(23:04):
And I don't pretend to understand how the universe
works in big, long term, forevermore kinds of ways.
But 100% I know their heavenly parents love all of us.
And if I'm to become like my heavenly parents, that means I
have to learn to love all of us.Yeah, you know, I, I grew up,
born and raised in the LDS faith, go back 6 generations and
(23:27):
all of the things I remember learning the Elohim was actually
plural. It meant it included the male
and the female. It wasn't singular, right?
It is plural. It doesn't always include male
and female. But there are times when it does
do that. Yes.
(23:47):
And that for me, I don't know ifif Lifeline is the right way to
describe that, but just that knowledge, that understanding,
especially because it has to do with language, words matter.
The way that the way that we usethose words, the words that we
actually use when describing ourselves, it, it matters.
(24:11):
And when I learned that I had a child who is transgender, it
really, I could say upset the apple cart.
It was really like, it just, I don't know, it was more than
that, but it just kind of my understanding of gender was
challenged in a big, big way. And I'm not going to go into
(24:36):
that during this interview, but one of the things that has
brought me so much pieces that Ithink this is my my thought
anyway. I believe our LGBTQ brothers and
sisters, specifically our transgender brothers and sisters
are here to teach us more about the marrying of those two
(24:59):
energies of the masculine divineand the feminine divine and how
different is not just beautiful.That's, that's the order of
divinity, right? We all have divinity within us,
right? We're taught that we're the seed
of divinity, that we're the offspring of, of God, right?
(25:24):
And I, I heard a few days ago, there's one in 400 trillion
chances that that we are going to be born right into this
existence. That sounds pretty purposeful to
me. And I'm hopeful for the day
where we can see these differences that are connected
(25:46):
with genes with, with DNA hormone and, and such that I'm
not talking just LGBTQ plus individuals.
I'm talking those that are neurodivergent.
I'm talking those that have chromosomal differences and are
born with different ways of learning and being in society
(26:10):
and, and all of those things, different learning abilities,
challenges and so on. So I'm just, I'm just curious
for you, why is it important to know?
Because I, I know you talk and you share about the knowledge,
the experience that you have andyou, you've done research and
(26:33):
you include citations and whatnot in, in your writing.
But why is it important that we understand that we all have
masculine energy and we all havefeminine energy?
Both of them divine, both of them purposefully and and
beautifully gifted. Yeah.
(26:55):
So I think that some of the lines and some of the terms
we've drawn are much more crisp than what they actually are.
So for instance, I have 0 interest in babies.
Babies are boring, I. Love, thank you for being just
honest in in your experience with that.
(27:18):
Great. But like age 2 to like 4-5 I
find utterly delightful. I mean, the brains are on and
learning and alive and they're like stumbling over themselves
with their enthusiasm and they're cheeky.
I mean like I love a cheeky toddler and but at the same time
my husband is like gooey for babies.
(27:38):
Like oh baby baby baby. Like oh let me hold the baby.
I want to hold the baby. Like he cannot get within the
blast zone of a baby and not like have that thing up against
them snuggled with him. He is way more a baby nurturer
than what I am, right? I'm a nurturer of toddlers.
I'm a nurturer of businesses. I'm a nurturer of projects.
(28:00):
I'm a nurturer of art. I'm a nurturer of ideas.
But not babies. And I think just labeling that
one or the other is a nurturer is a disservice to the idea that
we can nurture in multitude of ways and maybe not the expected
ways. By the same token, men are to be
the protectors. Just lost our child in a store
(28:23):
the other day, right? And I had very strong protective
reactions to that. And I would say as far as that
sort of situation goes, I'm way more of a protector than what he
is, right? And so I think we've sometimes
assigned these strict gender roles in a way that doesn't
(28:45):
quite make sense. And that I know that the system
my husband and I have set up between each other works, our
marriage works. And the ways that I'm the
nurturer and he's the nurturer and I'm the protector and he's
the protector and we've got thissynergy among us.
And us together is stronger thanus separate.
There's more of a balance, it sounds.
Like there's a balance, but thatdoesn't.
(29:08):
Mean that our arrangement is going to be the same balance as
anyone else's arrangement. So what I think is really
important within a system is that balance, but that a balance
can happen in a much more creative, flexible, diverse way
than what we maybe grew up with or maybe what we understood.
I I agree I. Think the gender, the the strict
(29:31):
definitions that we have surrounding gender roles, gender
binary and so on is is harmful to everyone.
It's not just harmful to women, it's harmful to men too.
Yeah, I would say I would I'm. Appreciative of a world that
lets my husband be the tender nurturer that he can be.
Right. I think that is to his planet.
(29:52):
So I appreciate that. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's good if if women
can feel empowered to work or create or nurture, like you
said, a business, a career, a profession is some of that
burden from the male who is traditionally expected to
provide. I mean, what a human our,
(30:14):
general our. General Relief Society president
owned her own law firm and she had support people who helped
take care of her children. So from my standpoint, the fact
that we don't question that she's a woman of God is really
important, right? If you were the General Relief
(30:35):
Society president, we do not question that she is a woman of
God. So we can look at her choices
and look at her life and say, oh, this also is acceptable to
God. And there are women who've
wondered if their choices are acceptable for God.
I've wondered if they were making the right thing for their
family, have wanted the courage to make maybe different choices
(30:59):
than the the structure that got handed to them.
And I think for me, the most important idea is that we turn
to God. We turn to God and ask what
should my life look like? Make me an instrument in thy
hands and then whatever that structure looks like.
Because to me it's not about thestructure.
It's not whether or not a woman stays home or doesn't stay home
(31:20):
or works outside of the house orworks only in the house.
Like it's not about the structure.
It's about whether or not you have involved God in the
decision making process and if the couple feels empowered to
make that decision, right? It shouldn't just be an assumed
like this is how this is going to work.
I'm going to make the decision for you, right?
Like if every party in that marriage is participating and
(31:43):
decision making and involving God in that process and
understanding that life is long and can look really different
ways than what it does at this time or this time or this time.
And I think that's, yeah, not only is lifelong and can change
in our own lives, but also otherpeople can get different
answers. A friend of mine was planning on
(32:04):
going to nursing school, said a prayer, and God said, no, I need
you in medical school, You're going to be a doctor, right?
And that was not her plan. She did not think being a doctor
was particularly family friendlyas what she thought of nursing,
but that's what God called her to do.
So when someone looks at that choice, are they judgmental or
(32:24):
did they understand that she made that choice based on pure
revelation to her? Like I think we have to ratchet
down our judgments because judgments are based on ego.
Judgments are based on assuming that we know best for someone.
That's a very bold assumption toplay that we, we get to play
God, right? I barely could have the judgment
(32:47):
over my own life. Let's not think that I get to
make judgments on somebody else's.
That's that's a great way to. Look at it.
I agree 100% with you're you're talking about involving God in
the decision making in seeking your path and following that
path. And I would add, I think we
shouldn't be surprised when thatanswer maybe is different than
(33:12):
what we thought it might be or expected it to be or perhaps
we're told it would be. We should even expect maybe that
it's going to be different because how many billions of
people are there? There's so many and how and how
needs does that represent? And I can say off the top of.
My head I know so many women whogot exactly opposite answers.
(33:34):
One woman got told that she should pursue a musical career.
Another woman got told she should put her career on hold
and have a child. That's not what her plan was.
Another woman got told that she should sell the dream house that
they built and she should stay home.
Another woman got told, as I just said, that she should go to
medical school. So here's The thing is, just
(33:55):
like off of the acquaintance andoff of conversations I've had
even in the last couple of weeks, I can lay down exact
opposite instructions that God gave of different women.
So quit assuming that there's one type of instruction that's
going to come. Like, of course this is going to
be the answer. No, it's not.
The answer could be as wild and as myriad as what our life
experience demands. I love that.
(34:18):
So I want to shift a little bit.I mentioned I have reimagined my
podcast starting the beginning of this year.
I added the word living to the front.
I call it living beyond the shadow of doubt because I have
found as we step into that unknown, into what we cannot see
or or presently understand in the moment, but as we step into
(34:39):
that uncertainty, it is amazing what we find on the other side
of that. There's so much joy, so much
living, so much new understanding and knowledge.
It, it's an expansion in so manyways, and I'd love for you to
share with us what the, what those have been, what moments of
joy and bliss you have found in this journey.
(35:02):
So I have always. Loved CS Lewis's analogy about a
person who thought that they were repairing a small cottage.
And then as a turret flies up over here and a Moat gets dug
over here and the ballroom gets pushed out, all of a sudden they
realize that this small, tidy college they thought they're
(35:24):
building had become a castle. And the analogy that CS Lewis
was drawing, that's. So cool.
Isn't that beautiful? Yes.
So CS Lewis used it as an. Analogy for When we turn our
life over to God, we have expected expectations about the
tidiness and maybe even the smallness of our lives.
(35:47):
And yet instead we have this expansiveness that sometimes we
can't even grasp or see or or even predict around the corner,
but that we have this fullness of joy, this fullness of life,
this abundance that we never could have even imagined.
And so I think for me, my life has gone none of the ways I
(36:11):
thought it was going to go and, and for me to really deeply
imagine the joy of that and the expansiveness of it and the ways
that like the ways that I held to the learnings that God taught
me, right? God taught me I am to become a
full being, right? God taught me that in that
(36:32):
process of becoming a full being, I need to care about
others and donate time and energy and effort to helping,
that I am to use my talents. In fact, my periodical blessing
speaks specifically about this. And so as we turn our life over
to God, we have this opportunityto build in a robust castle what
(36:53):
we'd thought we were just doing a few repairs on, right?
And I think that kind of abundance is had through deity,
right? Like, you can live a good life
in any number of ways. I know any number of people who
do not involve God in their life, simply because they don't
does not mean they're going to have tragic fates, right?
I mean, like, I don't have that sort of thinking.
(37:15):
But I think for me, intentionally crafting a life
that is turned over to God to bean instrument in God's hands has
given me an abundance that I didnot know was possible.
And God's path, even when it looks different than other
people's or different than I expected.
And I've had to have some mourning in there.
There's been some grieving in there for life that I did not
(37:37):
end up having that I thought I was going to have.
But at the same time, to really embrace that abundance and have
gratitude for that abundance, despite the differences and the
expectations, I think has reallyled to a more, I don't want to
say peaceful life because that makes it sound like it's static,
but a more thriving life, almostdynamic.
(37:59):
Really. Dynamically peaceful.
Dynamically peaceful. There you go.
Yeah. You are anything but static in
what I have seen and know of you.
Yeah, so. One last question.
I'm it's, I'm going to throw in an extra.
It's kind of A2 parter here, butI always wrap up with what does
it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?
(38:22):
I also when we were DM ING you said something you mentioned.
Yeah. I can't wait to chat.
I've been thinking about spiritual sovereignty a lot
lately. I'd love to know what your
definition of spiritual sovereignty is.
Where or what does that mean to you, as well as what does living
beyond the shadow of doubt? To me, spiritual sovereignty is
(38:45):
maybe the most important life skill that someone can learn.
Life skill. 100%. Interesting.
Yeah, it's something you can practice.
It's something you can learn. It's not something you just
check off and be like, I'm sovereign done.
It's something that you continueto grow and develop.
But the reason I say that I think it's maybe the most
important thing is to me, a spiritually sovereign person is
(39:07):
a person who knows they can turnto God, get personal revelation
and live by it no matter what. That makes someone spiritually
sovereign. And that's not independent of
God's sovereign. That is working with God's
sovereign. So that's a really important
part of my definition, right? Sometimes I think people worry
about if if people become sovereign that then they'll,
(39:28):
they'll go off, right? For me, being spiritually
sovereign involves God, right? That is, that is inherent in the
definition. But in this spiritual
sovereignty, it means that you have to be willing to tackle
things that are uncomfortable and challenge you.
In fact, I just had lunch with anew friend and she said to me
(39:50):
the most brilliant thing. She said God keeps testing to
see how uncomfortable I'm willing to get right.
Well, at least she's. She's on to them.
She's on. She's.
She's recognizing the pattern, right?
But she kept talking about theseinspirations that she keeps
having to do and move and be andbecome and help people and truly
(40:16):
just. God wants our.
Development. That's why we're here.
And a key component of development is agency.
We believe that agency is so important that we're willing to
let really terrible things happen in this world, right?
Because agency matters. Without agency, you can't grow
and develop. That's the entire point of earth
life. And so if we're going to have
(40:37):
agency and we're going to exercise it, that means we have
to become sovereign beings. And that means we have to
challenge when answers come to us that are uncomfortable,
right? And so, for example, here it
comes, a woman, a woman I heard about feels really called to do
(40:57):
healings, to be a healer, and she's wrestling with what that
means within her faith traditionthat does not embrace women
doing that. That's a moment and she hasn't
resolved it. So I don't have, I don't have
the end of the story for you, but just this idea that she has
to turn to God to sort this out.I had another conversation with
a woman earlier this week where she is dating someone not of her
(41:20):
faith and she says I keep feeling like this is where I
should be, but it's so uncomfortable to go against what
I always expected and what I wasalways taught.
She's going to have to be spiritually sovereign in making
this decision because it may lead her down a path that she
wasn't expecting, or it might not.
Maybe there's something for her to learn along the way.
But the only way to get through this earth life and to to
(41:42):
maneuver through these demandingdecisions is to learn how to be
a sovereign being, a spirituallysovereign being.
And I think this impacts everything.
A friend of mine was called to acalling that she felt was
absolutely wrong for her, prayedabout it, felt blah about it,
and then had to turn down the Bishop five times because she
(42:07):
had to be spiritually sovereign.To say, I understand we're
getting different revelation here, but my revelation is
telling me this is not right. And that doesn't mean I don't
think we shouldn't serve in our communities and in our faith
groups and just say we have to listen to God speaking to us.
My true hope. And prayer is to inspire more
women to lean into that spiritual sovereignty and know
(42:31):
that it doesn't mean anything about them if they are, if they
are aligned in what their response is.
Just like your friend, it's OK for her to lean into that
decision and that choice and verbalize it and.
For. Someone else, in this case her
ecclesiastical leader, to have adifferent thought, opinion,
(42:55):
answer, whatever on that. They don't need to be mutually
exclusive. It's that's his response.
She's allowed to have hers and own it.
It's her life. Absolutely.
And I think when mothers and fathers receive revelation about
their children, right, that thiscan come into bump against
(43:15):
institutions, churches and schools and friend groups and
like it can bump. And so having, I think our faith
has a really good job of teaching how to reach out to God
to get inspired. It doesn't always teach us a
really good model of how to stick with our inspiration when
it contradicts what is comfortable.
And I think understanding that growth is uncomfortable and that
(43:38):
we can be called to God's path and that path can be very
clearly our path and still not be comfortable.
I don't know how it is for you, but.
I think growing up I kind of equated if I felt awkward or
uncomfortable or amiss or something that that meant a loss
of spiritual guidance or the spirit or something along those
(43:59):
lines. And I've learned that is
absolutely not the case. It's no our.
Feelings are there. To guide us, to provide us with
information, to help us be curious about what's really
going on for us. It doesn't mean that we're on a
wrong. I have a very.
Clear experience where I 100% knew I was on God's path and it
(44:20):
was remarkably uncomfortable. And I think that really
character forming experience, itreally forged this within me
that now I recognize that there's there's the discomfort
of being out of line with the spirit.
But when you know you're in lineand you know you're receiving,
(44:40):
there's the uncomfortableness ofjust having to step into tricky,
hard, demanding things. And that's life, right?
And that's, that's a different feeling, but being able to kind
of right now, my 8 year old has a really hard time, 9 year old
differentiating between when herstomach hurts when she's sick
and when her stomach hurts when she's hungry, right?
It feels to her the same thing, but you have really opposite
(45:02):
things that need to happen there, right?
Like such a good exercise. And practice that you're doing
with her. She's yeah, yeah.
She's lucky to have you to help guide her and learn able to
process that. Through right is 1 is like get a
bucket and the other is you needsome food in your body, right?
And those are totally different,like they are to the situation.
(45:23):
But I think the same thing holds.
For our spirituality, right, that there's different kinds of
uncomfortableness and the more that we're finely tuned
instrument for sure, the more we're able to identify what this
is, what's happening. But I think I cannot overstate
the importance of becoming spiritually sovereign.
You have to do this in order to become my God.
(45:44):
That's the entire point of our agency, of exercising our agency
over and over and over again is to become more God like.
And for me, that's that's pure. Bliss for me owning that.
That's mine. It's mine and I know that.
And there were times that I, I can honestly say I don't think I
really understood or knew that fully.
So I love that. Thank you for sharing your
(46:06):
thoughts on that with us. I just have a few questions to
throw out. I'm looking for one or two word
answers. That's it.
Just get to get to know you a little bit better.
So share with us your favorite book.
It can be one of your own. That'd be funny.
Whichever book I've just finished that I don't have to
work on anymore. I'm a person who really likes to
(46:27):
start things and I hate finishing.
So like, oh, if I finished it then by golly, it's the best
book ever. Well, it could be a really that
was more than one of our two answer already, so OK, it's
totally fine. Well, you we'll talk about the
one you just released, Mother's Day.
We're recording this a few days after Mother's Day.
Yeah, that's your most recently.It's called Mother in Heaven A.
(46:49):
Gospel topics essay study guide it's for anyone.
Elder Remlin said in General Conference 2022 that the
doctrine of family mother could be found in the gospel topics
essay. You can find that in the gospel
app in the tools online. But we decided we really wanted
to dig in and study it. In fact, he said there that
studying is part of spiritual growth.
(47:10):
And so we provided a tool mechanism for people to study,
which is not the end all be all,right.
It should be like it's a starting point.
And start this and then become. Spiritually sovereign and, you
know, see where it takes you. But I think it's helpful to have
tools, right? We're we're we're people who do
better with tools. So yeah, that my favorite book
is the one that just finished. Let's let's go with that.
(47:30):
That's great. OK, I.
Think I know this answer. Are you an introvert or an
extrovert? Interesting.
So I have consistently been an extrovert.
But after living in. India for eight years, where
there's no such thing as an introvert.
My oldest daughter would feel this pain.
I feel both. I'm a really solid X in the
(47:51):
middle where like I get absolutely rejuvenated and
talking to people and having energy with people and I
absolutely need time by myself to also refuel.
Beautiful. I'm right in the middle.
Yeah. Who is your?
Favorite artist Who's my favorite?
Artist that could be you too. That's funny.
(48:14):
This is funny. I have I have a mixed, I have a
mixed answer for you. OK, There's a Carpenter in India
named Munkle Das who is an artist in his how his brain
works and what he creates and how he is so intelligent in what
he tackles. And his end products are both
(48:37):
beautiful and functional. And so Mungle Das might be my
favorite. That's great.
That's a great name. And then I have a whole slew of
friends. Who are artists?
All the people who contributed art to our books.
Lots of them have become dear friends.
And I would say that the work I see them do.
I don't know if you know this, but when we started with the
Girls Guide to Heavenly Mother and the Boys Guide to Heavenly
(48:58):
Mother, we needed fifty some pieces of art showing Heavenly
Mother and there were five at the time.
And there's recently been a study that released and they
stopped counting at 500. So in about 7 to 8 years, that's
fabulous. This has grown.
That's fantastic. Exponentially.
That's so good. So I would say artists who are.
(49:20):
Revealing truths to us artists who are portraying doctrine that
we've never visually had access to before are my favorite people
who make my brain rework and seethe world in a new way.
There's a Jesus image I saw recently by Chris Ann that shows
a man in a Plaid shirt and a baseball cap and a Halo around
(49:42):
him, and he's working with a plant.
It's clearly Jesus. It's the titles Lord of the
Vineyard. I had never seen Jesus look like
a Mexican immigrant before in mylife.
That's great. And it reordered my brain.
And that kind of art is incredibly more of that, Yeah.
Yes, I agree. Are you a night owl or a morning
lark? Night owl for short.
(50:05):
Who is your celebrity crush? My husband.
OK. Do you?
Distill or carbonated water or you diet soda fan or some other
fun beverage fizzy makes me one of.
Ahmed Oh, no Fizzy for you, no. Fizzy for this place you've
traveled last question the furthest.
Place I've traveled like the longest it took me to get there,
(50:26):
sure I. Mean literally or.
Metaphysically, the depth of my soul is maybe the farthest place
I've ever told. It's a great answer.
I'll take it. I love that answer.
No one's ever responded to that question in that way.
That's a good answer. The depth of your soul.
(50:46):
That's great. So if folks wanted to reach out
with questions for you. Yeah.
Easiest way. Easiest.
Way easiest way is probably Instagram.
I'm on Instagram. Is MacArthur Krishna creating or
my e-mail address is mynamemacarthurkrishna@gmail.com
OK, I'll make. Sure to leave those in the show
notes. Thank you so much for your time
(51:09):
and your insight, your wisdom and sharing of all of your
experience with us. So appreciated.
Appreciate you. Writer.
Teacher. Author, Mormon scholar and
founder of Dialogue journal Eugene England said my faith
encourages my curiosity and awe,thrusts me out into relationship
(51:29):
with all creation, and encourages me to enter into
dialogue. As a proud member of the
Dialogue Podcast Network, my hope is that Living Beyond the
Shadow of Doubt podcast is an extension of that vision.
Visit Megan Skidmore coaching. Dot com to find this podcast and
(51:52):
additional free resources, including the link for a
complimentary coaching session. Follow me on Facebook or
Instagram for more or to send mea DM, help the podcast grow.
Please follow, review and share with a friend.
Today I get to share a wonderfulinterview I had with MacArthur.
Krishna MacArthur has been in the space of normalizing talking
about Heavenly Mother, about thefeminine divine, and how that
has the power or the potential to shift so many things within
the LDS faith. And I'm going to extrapolate and
(00:23):
say within all faiths, really. I had been wanting to have a
conversation with her for some time because once my kiddo came
out as transgender, I was put inthis place of what do I of
questioning or bringing into curiosity my understanding of
gender, gender identity, gender expression, what sex assigned at
(00:45):
birth meant, and so on. And so I was able to have a
fantastic conversation and this is one of the things that we
were able to talk about. So I'm excited to share that
with you. Along with how MacArthur feels
about spiritual sovereignty. It is a life skill, something
you can practice, something you can learn.
As she says, a spiritually sovereign person is a person who
(01:07):
knows they can turn to God, get personal revelation, and live by
it no matter what. I'm Megan Skidmore.
For 2 1/2 years I have been talking about evolving faith
journeys. I started to tire of the
(01:29):
heaviness of this focus. I had the clear message come
through. It is time for Beyond the Shadow
of Doubt podcast to evolve into living Beyond the Shadow of
Doubt podcast with the same vulnerability and unapologetic
authenticity. I will be focusing on the joy in
this journey, the life and the living that comes on the other
side of maybe on the other side of what's possible.
(01:51):
I want to talk about claiming spiritual sovereignty and
becoming your own captain of your vessel.
Let's celebrate releasing but nolonger alliance for you and
connecting with your higher power and honor expanding your
energy field to make room for all things new.
(02:15):
There is a lot going on in the world today.
What practices do you have in place that help you recenter,
get grounded, connect to your inner wisdom and remember you
are powerful. On the 1st Friday of each month,
I host a coaching session that anyone is welcome to join.
I invite you to get a glimpse into my world and what I do.
(02:36):
When this monthly call, I will guide participants in what I
term Raise your vibration sessions.
Essentially, I'm teaching you toincrease your awareness of your
energy and your body and the messages available to you.
I would be so honored to have you on the call.
Simply register at the link in the show notes.
(03:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to today's episode of
Living Beyond the Shadow of Doubt.
I'm Megan Skidmore, your host, and today I'm so pleased to have
MacArthur Krishna with me. We've connected a few times in
the past and I'm thrilled. I know you're so busy.
You've recently released, you mentioned before I hit record 3
books and we'll get to those in a minute.
(03:23):
And you make the rounds, you make you have your own circuit,
I guess, of speaking opportunities both in person and
on podcasts. And I'm imagining book launches
and such. So thank you for being here and
making time out of your schedule.
It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.
Thanks for having me. And I love that you're in your
(03:43):
car. I mean that is.
Looking at the video, I'm in my car.
That is the joy of the world we live in.
Like that's yeah, we can do things on the go.
So just take a moment. Some of my listeners will know
who you are and some will not. If you'll just take a few
moments and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about your
(04:05):
background, where you're from, you know, including your faith
background, your family, maybe include some of your
professional pursuits and what not.
Just all those things that make you you OK?
My highlight? The Reader's Digest version.
I have written 20 some books. Most of those are an effort to
(04:28):
provide a world that I would like to see happen for my
daughters. I have three daughters.
I grew up in rural West Virginia, which I think I like
to blame for my stubborn streak because we have the state motto
of Mountaineers are always free.And so I I lay all blame on my
stubborn streak of growing up amongst a group of people who
(04:49):
really just wanted to do their own thing.
I come from a very robust and loving family.
I have 5 brothers and two sisters and I actually was
speaking with a therapist recently and the person I was
sitting next to introduced myself as oh she's Christian.
(05:10):
And the therapist went, oh, and I, I laughed and I actually had
to immediately stop her because while I understand that people
have had that oh, journey of Christianity, honestly, my
Christian journey has been really powerfully good and, and
I want to honor that. And so I feel like so much of
(05:30):
the things that make me who I am, how I see the world, how I
either do care for others or expect I want to be the person
who cares for others come from the faith that my parents handed
down to me and the faith that they so abundantly live.
And so I feel like the faith that I carry with me has been a
true gift, but maybe it's also because that faith came with
(05:53):
that healthy dose of independence.
And so I had parents who specifically my mom, who taught
me that she could not prepare mefor every life thing that may
happen. She could only prepare me to
practice and learn and just default into trusting God.
And so from a very young age, mymom, we have this joke among my
(06:14):
family that it's two out of three, two out of three times we
pray about something when you'retrying to decide what to do.
And my mom taught us that we 100% could expect God to to tell
us and to converse with us and be aware of us and love us.
And I think of that really strong rooting in God's will
prepared me for some of my life paths that took me much
(06:36):
different places than what I would have expected.
They have. They've taken you overseas.
Yeah. And I went to BYU twice.
I dated wonderful, amazing LDS men who I have nothing but
respect for. But when I prayed about who to
marry, I got put on a different path.
(06:57):
And and that path then led me overseas.
It led me to a place where church wasn't available.
So before the church was doing home church, by necessity, the
congregation that was closest tome was a plane ride away and.
Yeah, wow. I started at first trying to
take the train, but when the train gets delayed because
(07:18):
you've been on the train for 12 hours and then 16 hours and then
20 hours, and you're looking at your watch and you're realizing
the soccer meeting has started and then soccer meeting has
ended and then the second block has started.
Yeah. Pretty soon I realized the train
was not going to be my option. So I would literally fly to
church once a month. That's how I got to church.
(07:38):
And I remember crying, crying ingratitude to be at church.
And the kindness of people at church was, was very real.
I was standing in the bathroom one Sunday and I was crying
because I was happy to be there,but I was also crying because I
had a toddler. And I got nothing out of the
meeting, right, because I was too busy juggling the toddler.
And a woman came in and said, what's going on?
(07:58):
What can I do for you? And I just said, I'm really
frustrated, right? That I came all this way.
I took a plane to get here. I put all this oomph to show up
and like, I'm not being spiritually fed.
I'm chasing my kid. And she said, you know what?
I would offer to chase it for you, chase her for you.
But I'm actually teaching the second block.
And I said, that's fine, it's OK, blah, blah, blah.
She said, no, no, no, you come into my classroom, we're going
(08:20):
to make this work. And so while she stood at the
further room and taught a lesson, she had a my kid white
board markers and put her on a chair next to her and stood by
her gardener because she was a toddler and let her draw on the
white board while she taught thelesson.
That's fantastic. Just so I could have a moment of
spiritual lift, right? Right.
(08:42):
And then living in India at the time, yeah.
Yeah, and the closest congregation to me was in Delhi.
Wow. I lived in rural India.
OK. So I think the the joy of
especially being part of a sisterhood at church and women
who really look out for one another has always been really
powerful. In fact, when I moved to India,
(09:03):
a woman sent me a message and she said, hey, I've been
assigned to be your visiting teacher.
OK. She was back in America and she
just said I'm going to be your visiting teacher.
So she sent me the Relief Society news.
It was full of tidbits about people I loved and she'd catch
me all up what was going and we would chit chat here and there.
I didn't find out until years later.
(09:25):
No one called her. She called herself, How did she
What? She knew that I'm going to be
moving abroad and I was going tohave my whole foundation shaken.
She'd been a person because of her career path had been bounced
in and out of international places and she knew that I was
going to be ungrounded. And so she assigned herself to
be my visiting teacher and she kept track of me for years in
(09:50):
rural India. I love that incredibly.
Beautiful. I love when folks don't wait for
an invitation to be extended or an assignment or in the LDS
faith, it's, it's referred to asa calling, right?
And I think that epitomizes the true spirit of Christ, like love
(10:11):
and service. And it's, it's the embodiment of
it, I believe. So I think it's truly loving,
truly being brothers and sisters.
Shocker. A woman who didn't only only
been in a ward a few months was moving recently again.
And I said, hey, I'll come over and help you and I'll round up
(10:31):
some other people. And so I just kind of put out
the call and a whole bunch of people said, yeah, we'll come
and help you. And it was funny because then
the Bishop calls the husband andsays, hey, I heard you're moving
this week. Do you need any help?
And he's like, actually, the Relief Society is already here,
right? And the relief decipher, if you
don't know, is our women's organization, right?
The women were already on the ground, already doing what
needed to be done. And we calculated later five of
(10:53):
us were there and that and we worked for three hours.
So I was like 15 human hours of work that if this woman had
would have had to do on her own,it would have taken her two full
days back-to-back. But something that a handful of
women could just knock out in anafternoon, right?
And it was fun. Oh my gosh.
We laughed and giggled and talked trash all the way through
(11:15):
the day. I mean, it was an absolute
delight to quote UN quote serve,right?
We're really just not like sisters for just being a
sisterhood. Thank you for sharing that.
I, I agree. It's, it's so important to
connect in ways that we feel called to and not, not wait for
something outside of ourselves. I'm not saying that you
shouldn't consider when asked, but but definitely look within,
(11:40):
feel within. For me, that's been a huge part
of as I've reclaimed my, I call it my spiritual sovereignty.
Right on my own, my own journey here.
Yeah, I know you talk and share a lot about the feminine divine.
That's been a huge focus of your, not your only focus, but
(12:01):
you've dedicated a lot of time, a lot of research, a lot of
study, a lot of your writing focuses on the feminine divine,
Heavenly Mother. I'm curious to know.
One of the questions I asked my guest is when did you begin to
realize that maybe some of your belief system wasn't meeting
(12:22):
your spiritual needs or wasn't aligning with what you felt on
the inside? What felt aligned?
It's that's the only way I know how to describe it.
It's just something that your inner knowing, your inner being
just new, you know, and can you share with us about a time when
(12:42):
this. Happened I was 12 actually the
first time I remember this feeling OK and I read a book.
Yep. I read a book by Carolyn Pearson
called My Turn on Earth, and it talks about that we had a king
and queen, and all of a sudden it hit my brain that our
theology of a heavenly mother was real, that I had a mother
(13:04):
waiting for me who loved me, andI had an amazing earthly mother.
So it wasn't that I particularlyfelt a lack of this, but all of
a sudden I had this very clear understanding that the supreme
beings of the universe were my heavenly parents.
And that rejiggered a lot of things.
So Mary Daley, who is not LDS, said when God is male, then male
(13:27):
is God. And I can look around in our
world and I can see that the world was often based on that
idea. I don't know if you've heard of
a book called Defined by Design,but it talks about how so many
things in the Western world wereliterally designed to a certain
male structure. I would say so.
(13:49):
The height of escalator stairs, for example, medical trials
didn't include women till 1993, right?
Women couldn't get a bank account on their own name until
1974. And so they're all of these ways
that the world was set up to be functional with men.
And this is not at all to pit men and women against each
other. That's not where I'm going with
(14:10):
this. But it's all of a sudden you
understand that you're living ina world that held up men as the
main character and women as the support role to enable the main
character. And to realize that that model
is not our parents model. To realize that model is
actually part of the fallen world model.
(14:32):
That our Heavenly parents didn'tever want their sons and
daughters to interact that way, I think is really, really
significant. In fact, our theology in the LDS
church talks about Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother
walking side by side. Side by side is not a hierarchy.
That is partnership. So when you say this is not our
parents model, you mean our heavenly parents.
(14:54):
You're not talking to necessarily to our specific
earthly parents. They're part of, I mean our.
Heavenly Parents. Subject to this fallen world
model, just like we are. Yeah, right.
So Emma Smith actually had a revelation given to her where
she was told to put off the things of the world.
And in that same revelation she was called to preach and teach
(15:15):
and exhort the people of the church.
Now, that time, women did not preach and teach the churches.
That was not a role that was considered acceptable by women.
So when I think about the Scripture and the Doctrine
Covenants, I think about the reordering of defining that the
world is functioning like this. But this is not how God wants it
(15:36):
to function. It's not a divine model.
And so her being called to use her talents and abilities was
meant that she had to lay off the bias of the world to step
into this in a completely different way.
And for me, that was really powerful.
So I had this very clear sensibility when I was about 12
and then I started to bump into things, right?
(15:59):
Yeah. In fact, I had someone tell me,
well meaning, that they were afraid that when I found out
that women were subject to men in the temple, that I would be
deeply hurt when I learned the reality.
OK, what's fascinating about that to me is when the person
(16:21):
told me that I thought, I know this.
I know what my Heavenly Parents have taught me about this.
I am not a second class citizen.I do not believe that they want
women subject to men. This is not how I think the
divine model works. What's fascinating is actually
in the eldest faith, you know that that has changed.
(16:42):
The language is specifically a mediated relationship for women
to mediate with their husband toget to God has changed.
Women absolutely have the right to go to God.
In fact, President Nelson said in the last General conference
that women should have confidence and stepping forward
to God. Not just women, men should too,
of course, but he's also talked about that women needing to have
(17:06):
spiritual ability and spiritual connection and spiritual
authority and need to speak up and speak out.
And so I, I want, I want so muchfor our Heavenly Parents model
and what prophet is talking about to be something that sinks
so deeply within our souls that when we reject the model of the
(17:28):
world, it feels like coming home.
Yeah, feels like it's aligned with our doctrine and really
strong and powerful ways. So I'm hoping you can speak to
this next idea. Whenever someone realizes that
their path is, is the fork that you're going down now, the pivot
(17:51):
that you've now taken, whether you sought after it or not.
I have found most people don't go necessarily looking for it.
It's because something new information is presented with
them, to them and kind of sends them on a path they weren't
expecting. A lot can come up, but you
already talked about a woman whosaid she was afraid for when you
were going to go to the temple and what that experience might
(18:13):
be like for you. When you think about, I'm kind
of speaking collectively here. We're from a similar generation.
I think about obstacles or struggles that come up.
And for me, one of the things that's been particularly
difficult is this change happened so slowly, right?
(18:36):
Those that grew up with the way things were in their day and in
their age. And we're taught that though
that's the way that it is and that's the way you know from God
and, and all of that. And they're very resistant to
opening their hearts, opening their minds, trying to see
(18:58):
things from a different point ofview.
I'm not saying that they don't or won't, but it's one thing to
be loved or seen just for who you are versus one thing to be
loved or seen from a place of almost out of tolerance or out
(19:18):
of, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do.
This is what I'm taught I need to do.
I need to be loving and accepting regardless of what
this person believes or doesn't believe.
Does that make sense? What I'm what I'm saying?
How have you navigated that? Yeah.
One of the things I think is so important about the Doctor of
(19:39):
Mother is it changes the nature,the nature of the relationship
between humans and deity. So humans in deity historically
have been worshipping a king, right?
So that makes other humans mutual subjects to the king.
When we add in Heavenly Mother to the mix and we create these
familial relationships, we understand that deity and heaven
(20:01):
and our future are about relationships and that everyone
truly is our brother and sister.So I think all of us have
tendencies to other other people.
To make them be the other. We see the ways that we're
similar and different. I forevermore we'll be judged.
Because when I lived in Delhi, Isaw a woman sitting on a row
(20:24):
right in front of me and she hada bunch of kids and I had one
biological at that time. And I thought, I'm sure we don't
have anything to talk about. I'm sure we don't have anything
in common, and truth be told is that she became one of my
dearest friends when I lived there.
And like the judgment that I hadon her is shame on me, right?
That I immediately othered her because of the differences
(20:47):
instead of recognizing that those differences could be a
strength in our relationship. That I had things to offer her
and she had things to offer me. And I think that the idea of
understanding that God is familyis really significant because
that means that instead of having this obligation to love
one another, we have this baked in well to tap into, to say
(21:08):
these are truly my brothers and sisters even when they are
different than I am. And I think that reorientation
of God is particularly powerful right now in our society.
So I hope this doesn't catch youoff guard.
Tell me more about that, particularly at the intersection
of those who are our brothers and sisters and loved ones and
(21:33):
our LGBTQ plus in their identity.
What are your thoughts on that? Because I love what you're
saying, that God is family. So one of the books that we just
wrote, The Mother in Heaven, a gospel topics essay study guide,
we wanted to have a really wide range of voices.
And Tom Kristofferson was one ofthose voices.
(21:54):
And I said to him, Tom, you're agay man.
I don't understand that world atall.
I have not experienced that. So I truly love Tom and we're
dear friends, but I don't pretend to understand his world.
And I said I would love for you to write an essay in this book
so you can tell me what does Heavenly Mother matter to you?
How does this how has this played in your world?
(22:15):
Because I don't presume to understand what it means or
doesn't mean to you. And he graciously did.
And so we have an essay from Tomin in our book.
But I think that one of the easyways to other someone is to
other their LGBTQ, to other their faith, to other their
political beliefs, to other their life choices, and LGBTQ is
(22:40):
obviously one of the ways that happens.
I think if our LGBTQ brothers and sisters knew that they were
loved and welcomed in the familyof God, that that would be a
powerfully, I don't think relieving is quite the right
word, like a swaddling or a loving or a holding almost
beheld by the idea of a familialGod, right?
(23:04):
And I don't pretend to understand how the universe
works in big, long term, forevermore kinds of ways.
But 100% I know their heavenly parents love all of us.
And if I'm to become like my heavenly parents, that means I
have to learn to love all of us.Yeah, you know, I, I grew up,
born and raised in the LDS faith, go back 6 generations and
(23:27):
all of the things I remember learning the Elohim was actually
plural. It meant it included the male
and the female. It wasn't singular, right?
It is plural. It doesn't always include male
and female. But there are times when it does
do that. Yes.
(23:47):
And that for me, I don't know ifif Lifeline is the right way to
describe that, but just that knowledge, that understanding,
especially because it has to do with language, words matter.
The way that the way that we usethose words, the words that we
actually use when describing ourselves, it, it matters.
(24:11):
And when I learned that I had a child who is transgender, it
really, I could say upset the apple cart.
It was really like, it just, I don't know, it was more than
that, but it just kind of my understanding of gender was
challenged in a big, big way. And I'm not going to go into
(24:36):
that during this interview, but one of the things that has
brought me so much pieces that Ithink this is my my thought
anyway. I believe our LGBTQ brothers and
sisters, specifically our transgender brothers and sisters
are here to teach us more about the marrying of those two
(24:59):
energies of the masculine divineand the feminine divine and how
different is not just beautiful.That's, that's the order of
divinity, right? We all have divinity within us,
right? We're taught that we're the seed
of divinity, that we're the offspring of, of God, right?
(25:24):
And I, I heard a few days ago, there's one in 400 trillion
chances that that we are going to be born right into this
existence. That sounds pretty purposeful to
me. And I'm hopeful for the day
where we can see these differences that are connected
(25:46):
with genes with, with DNA hormone and, and such that I'm
not talking just LGBTQ plus individuals.
I'm talking those that are neurodivergent.
I'm talking those that have chromosomal differences and are
born with different ways of learning and being in society
(26:10):
and, and all of those things, different learning abilities,
challenges and so on. So I'm just, I'm just curious
for you, why is it important to know?
Because I, I know you talk and you share about the knowledge,
the experience that you have andyou, you've done research and
(26:33):
you include citations and whatnot in, in your writing.
But why is it important that we understand that we all have
masculine energy and we all havefeminine energy?
Both of them divine, both of them purposefully and and
beautifully gifted. Yeah.
(26:55):
So I think that some of the lines and some of the terms
we've drawn are much more crisp than what they actually are.
So for instance, I have 0 interest in babies.
Babies are boring, I. Love, thank you for being just
honest in in your experience with that.
(27:18):
Great. But like age 2 to like 4-5 I
find utterly delightful. I mean, the brains are on and
learning and alive and they're like stumbling over themselves
with their enthusiasm and they're cheeky.
I mean like I love a cheeky toddler and but at the same time
my husband is like gooey for babies.
(27:38):
Like oh baby baby baby. Like oh let me hold the baby.
I want to hold the baby. Like he cannot get within the
blast zone of a baby and not like have that thing up against
them snuggled with him. He is way more a baby nurturer
than what I am, right? I'm a nurturer of toddlers.
I'm a nurturer of businesses. I'm a nurturer of projects.
(28:00):
I'm a nurturer of art. I'm a nurturer of ideas.
But not babies. And I think just labeling that
one or the other is a nurturer is a disservice to the idea that
we can nurture in multitude of ways and maybe not the expected
ways. By the same token, men are to be
the protectors. Just lost our child in a store
(28:23):
the other day, right? And I had very strong protective
reactions to that. And I would say as far as that
sort of situation goes, I'm way more of a protector than what he
is, right? And so I think we've sometimes
assigned these strict gender roles in a way that doesn't
(28:45):
quite make sense. And that I know that the system
my husband and I have set up between each other works, our
marriage works. And the ways that I'm the
nurturer and he's the nurturer and I'm the protector and he's
the protector and we've got thissynergy among us.
And us together is stronger thanus separate.
There's more of a balance, it sounds.
Like there's a balance, but thatdoesn't.
(29:08):
Mean that our arrangement is going to be the same balance as
anyone else's arrangement. So what I think is really
important within a system is that balance, but that a balance
can happen in a much more creative, flexible, diverse way
than what we maybe grew up with or maybe what we understood.
I I agree I. Think the gender, the the strict
(29:31):
definitions that we have surrounding gender roles, gender
binary and so on is is harmful to everyone.
It's not just harmful to women, it's harmful to men too.
Yeah, I would say I would I'm. Appreciative of a world that
lets my husband be the tender nurturer that he can be.
Right. I think that is to his planet.
(29:52):
So I appreciate that. Yeah.
Yeah. I think it's good if if women
can feel empowered to work or create or nurture, like you
said, a business, a career, a profession is some of that
burden from the male who is traditionally expected to
provide. I mean, what a human our,
(30:14):
general our. General Relief Society president
owned her own law firm and she had support people who helped
take care of her children. So from my standpoint, the fact
that we don't question that she's a woman of God is really
important, right? If you were the General Relief
(30:35):
Society president, we do not question that she is a woman of
God. So we can look at her choices
and look at her life and say, oh, this also is acceptable to
God. And there are women who've
wondered if their choices are acceptable for God.
I've wondered if they were making the right thing for their
family, have wanted the courage to make maybe different choices
(30:59):
than the the structure that got handed to them.
And I think for me, the most important idea is that we turn
to God. We turn to God and ask what
should my life look like? Make me an instrument in thy
hands and then whatever that structure looks like.
Because to me it's not about thestructure.
It's not whether or not a woman stays home or doesn't stay home
(31:20):
or works outside of the house orworks only in the house.
Like it's not about the structure.
It's about whether or not you have involved God in the
decision making process and if the couple feels empowered to
make that decision, right? It shouldn't just be an assumed
like this is how this is going to work.
I'm going to make the decision for you, right?
Like if every party in that marriage is participating and
(31:43):
decision making and involving God in that process and
understanding that life is long and can look really different
ways than what it does at this time or this time or this time.
And I think that's, yeah, not only is lifelong and can change
in our own lives, but also otherpeople can get different
answers. A friend of mine was planning on
(32:04):
going to nursing school, said a prayer, and God said, no, I need
you in medical school, You're going to be a doctor, right?
And that was not her plan. She did not think being a doctor
was particularly family friendlyas what she thought of nursing,
but that's what God called her to do.
So when someone looks at that choice, are they judgmental or
(32:24):
did they understand that she made that choice based on pure
revelation to her? Like I think we have to ratchet
down our judgments because judgments are based on ego.
Judgments are based on assuming that we know best for someone.
That's a very bold assumption toplay that we, we get to play
God, right? I barely could have the judgment
(32:47):
over my own life. Let's not think that I get to
make judgments on somebody else's.
That's that's a great way to. Look at it.
I agree 100% with you're you're talking about involving God in
the decision making in seeking your path and following that
path. And I would add, I think we
shouldn't be surprised when thatanswer maybe is different than
(33:12):
what we thought it might be or expected it to be or perhaps
we're told it would be. We should even expect maybe that
it's going to be different because how many billions of
people are there? There's so many and how and how
needs does that represent? And I can say off the top of.
My head I know so many women whogot exactly opposite answers.
(33:34):
One woman got told that she should pursue a musical career.
Another woman got told she should put her career on hold
and have a child. That's not what her plan was.
Another woman got told that she should sell the dream house that
they built and she should stay home.
Another woman got told, as I just said, that she should go to
medical school. So here's The thing is, just
(33:55):
like off of the acquaintance andoff of conversations I've had
even in the last couple of weeks, I can lay down exact
opposite instructions that God gave of different women.
So quit assuming that there's one type of instruction that's
going to come. Like, of course this is going to
be the answer. No, it's not.
The answer could be as wild and as myriad as what our life
experience demands. I love that.
(34:18):
So I want to shift a little bit.I mentioned I have reimagined my
podcast starting the beginning of this year.
I added the word living to the front.
I call it living beyond the shadow of doubt because I have
found as we step into that unknown, into what we cannot see
or or presently understand in the moment, but as we step into
(34:39):
that uncertainty, it is amazing what we find on the other side
of that. There's so much joy, so much
living, so much new understanding and knowledge.
It, it's an expansion in so manyways, and I'd love for you to
share with us what the, what those have been, what moments of
joy and bliss you have found in this journey.
(35:02):
So I have always. Loved CS Lewis's analogy about a
person who thought that they were repairing a small cottage.
And then as a turret flies up over here and a Moat gets dug
over here and the ballroom gets pushed out, all of a sudden they
realize that this small, tidy college they thought they're
(35:24):
building had become a castle. And the analogy that CS Lewis
was drawing, that's. So cool.
Isn't that beautiful? Yes.
So CS Lewis used it as an. Analogy for When we turn our
life over to God, we have expected expectations about the
tidiness and maybe even the smallness of our lives.
(35:47):
And yet instead we have this expansiveness that sometimes we
can't even grasp or see or or even predict around the corner,
but that we have this fullness of joy, this fullness of life,
this abundance that we never could have even imagined.
And so I think for me, my life has gone none of the ways I
(36:11):
thought it was going to go and, and for me to really deeply
imagine the joy of that and the expansiveness of it and the ways
that like the ways that I held to the learnings that God taught
me, right? God taught me I am to become a
full being, right? God taught me that in that
(36:32):
process of becoming a full being, I need to care about
others and donate time and energy and effort to helping,
that I am to use my talents. In fact, my periodical blessing
speaks specifically about this. And so as we turn our life over
to God, we have this opportunityto build in a robust castle what
(36:53):
we'd thought we were just doing a few repairs on, right?
And I think that kind of abundance is had through deity,
right? Like, you can live a good life
in any number of ways. I know any number of people who
do not involve God in their life, simply because they don't
does not mean they're going to have tragic fates, right?
I mean, like, I don't have that sort of thinking.
(37:15):
But I think for me, intentionally crafting a life
that is turned over to God to bean instrument in God's hands has
given me an abundance that I didnot know was possible.
And God's path, even when it looks different than other
people's or different than I expected.
And I've had to have some mourning in there.
There's been some grieving in there for life that I did not
(37:37):
end up having that I thought I was going to have.
But at the same time, to really embrace that abundance and have
gratitude for that abundance, despite the differences and the
expectations, I think has reallyled to a more, I don't want to
say peaceful life because that makes it sound like it's static,
but a more thriving life, almostdynamic.
(37:59):
Really. Dynamically peaceful.
Dynamically peaceful. There you go.
Yeah. You are anything but static in
what I have seen and know of you.
Yeah, so. One last question.
I'm it's, I'm going to throw in an extra.
It's kind of A2 parter here, butI always wrap up with what does
it mean to you to live beyond the shadow of doubt?
(38:22):
I also when we were DM ING you said something you mentioned.
Yeah. I can't wait to chat.
I've been thinking about spiritual sovereignty a lot
lately. I'd love to know what your
definition of spiritual sovereignty is.
Where or what does that mean to you, as well as what does living
beyond the shadow of doubt? To me, spiritual sovereignty is
(38:45):
maybe the most important life skill that someone can learn.
Life skill. 100%. Interesting.
Yeah, it's something you can practice.
It's something you can learn. It's not something you just
check off and be like, I'm sovereign done.
It's something that you continueto grow and develop.
But the reason I say that I think it's maybe the most
important thing is to me, a spiritually sovereign person is
(39:07):
a person who knows they can turnto God, get personal revelation
and live by it no matter what. That makes someone spiritually
sovereign. And that's not independent of
God's sovereign. That is working with God's
sovereign. So that's a really important
part of my definition, right? Sometimes I think people worry
about if if people become sovereign that then they'll,
(39:28):
they'll go off, right? For me, being spiritually
sovereign involves God, right? That is, that is inherent in the
definition. But in this spiritual
sovereignty, it means that you have to be willing to tackle
things that are uncomfortable and challenge you.
In fact, I just had lunch with anew friend and she said to me
(39:50):
the most brilliant thing. She said God keeps testing to
see how uncomfortable I'm willing to get right.
Well, at least she's. She's on to them.
She's on. She's.
She's recognizing the pattern, right?
But she kept talking about theseinspirations that she keeps
having to do and move and be andbecome and help people and truly
(40:16):
just. God wants our.
Development. That's why we're here.
And a key component of development is agency.
We believe that agency is so important that we're willing to
let really terrible things happen in this world, right?
Because agency matters. Without agency, you can't grow
and develop. That's the entire point of earth
life. And so if we're going to have
(40:37):
agency and we're going to exercise it, that means we have
to become sovereign beings. And that means we have to
challenge when answers come to us that are uncomfortable,
right? And so, for example, here it
comes, a woman, a woman I heard about feels really called to do
(40:57):
healings, to be a healer, and she's wrestling with what that
means within her faith traditionthat does not embrace women
doing that. That's a moment and she hasn't
resolved it. So I don't have, I don't have
the end of the story for you, but just this idea that she has
to turn to God to sort this out.I had another conversation with
a woman earlier this week where she is dating someone not of her
(41:20):
faith and she says I keep feeling like this is where I
should be, but it's so uncomfortable to go against what
I always expected and what I wasalways taught.
She's going to have to be spiritually sovereign in making
this decision because it may lead her down a path that she
wasn't expecting, or it might not.
Maybe there's something for her to learn along the way.
But the only way to get through this earth life and to to
(41:42):
maneuver through these demandingdecisions is to learn how to be
a sovereign being, a spirituallysovereign being.
And I think this impacts everything.
A friend of mine was called to acalling that she felt was
absolutely wrong for her, prayedabout it, felt blah about it,
and then had to turn down the Bishop five times because she
(42:07):
had to be spiritually sovereign.To say, I understand we're
getting different revelation here, but my revelation is
telling me this is not right. And that doesn't mean I don't
think we shouldn't serve in our communities and in our faith
groups and just say we have to listen to God speaking to us.
My true hope. And prayer is to inspire more
women to lean into that spiritual sovereignty and know
(42:31):
that it doesn't mean anything about them if they are, if they
are aligned in what their response is.
Just like your friend, it's OK for her to lean into that
decision and that choice and verbalize it and.
For. Someone else, in this case her
ecclesiastical leader, to have adifferent thought, opinion,
(42:55):
answer, whatever on that. They don't need to be mutually
exclusive. It's that's his response.
She's allowed to have hers and own it.
It's her life. Absolutely.
And I think when mothers and fathers receive revelation about
their children, right, that thiscan come into bump against
(43:15):
institutions, churches and schools and friend groups and
like it can bump. And so having, I think our faith
has a really good job of teaching how to reach out to God
to get inspired. It doesn't always teach us a
really good model of how to stick with our inspiration when
it contradicts what is comfortable.
And I think understanding that growth is uncomfortable and that
(43:38):
we can be called to God's path and that path can be very
clearly our path and still not be comfortable.
I don't know how it is for you, but.
I think growing up I kind of equated if I felt awkward or
uncomfortable or amiss or something that that meant a loss
of spiritual guidance or the spirit or something along those
(43:59):
lines. And I've learned that is
absolutely not the case. It's no our.
Feelings are there. To guide us, to provide us with
information, to help us be curious about what's really
going on for us. It doesn't mean that we're on a
wrong. I have a very.
Clear experience where I 100% knew I was on God's path and it
(44:20):
was remarkably uncomfortable. And I think that really
character forming experience, itreally forged this within me
that now I recognize that there's there's the discomfort
of being out of line with the spirit.
But when you know you're in lineand you know you're receiving,
(44:40):
there's the uncomfortableness ofjust having to step into tricky,
hard, demanding things. And that's life, right?
And that's, that's a different feeling, but being able to kind
of right now, my 8 year old has a really hard time, 9 year old
differentiating between when herstomach hurts when she's sick
and when her stomach hurts when she's hungry, right?
It feels to her the same thing, but you have really opposite
(45:02):
things that need to happen there, right?
Like such a good exercise. And practice that you're doing
with her. She's yeah, yeah.
She's lucky to have you to help guide her and learn able to
process that. Through right is 1 is like get a
bucket and the other is you needsome food in your body, right?
And those are totally different,like they are to the situation.
(45:23):
But I think the same thing holds.
For our spirituality, right, that there's different kinds of
uncomfortableness and the more that we're finely tuned
instrument for sure, the more we're able to identify what this
is, what's happening. But I think I cannot overstate
the importance of becoming spiritually sovereign.
You have to do this in order to become my God.
(45:44):
That's the entire point of our agency, of exercising our agency
over and over and over again is to become more God like.
And for me, that's that's pure. Bliss for me owning that.
That's mine. It's mine and I know that.
And there were times that I, I can honestly say I don't think I
really understood or knew that fully.
So I love that. Thank you for sharing your
(46:06):
thoughts on that with us. I just have a few questions to
throw out. I'm looking for one or two word
answers. That's it.
Just get to get to know you a little bit better.
So share with us your favorite book.
It can be one of your own. That'd be funny.
Whichever book I've just finished that I don't have to
work on anymore. I'm a person who really likes to
(46:27):
start things and I hate finishing.
So like, oh, if I finished it then by golly, it's the best
book ever. Well, it could be a really that
was more than one of our two answer already, so OK, it's
totally fine. Well, you we'll talk about the
one you just released, Mother's Day.
We're recording this a few days after Mother's Day.
Yeah, that's your most recently.It's called Mother in Heaven A.
(46:49):
Gospel topics essay study guide it's for anyone.
Elder Remlin said in General Conference 2022 that the
doctrine of family mother could be found in the gospel topics
essay. You can find that in the gospel
app in the tools online. But we decided we really wanted
to dig in and study it. In fact, he said there that
studying is part of spiritual growth.
(47:10):
And so we provided a tool mechanism for people to study,
which is not the end all be all,right.
It should be like it's a starting point.
And start this and then become. Spiritually sovereign and, you
know, see where it takes you. But I think it's helpful to have
tools, right? We're we're we're people who do
better with tools. So yeah, that my favorite book
is the one that just finished. Let's let's go with that.
(47:30):
That's great. OK, I.
Think I know this answer. Are you an introvert or an
extrovert? Interesting.
So I have consistently been an extrovert.
But after living in. India for eight years, where
there's no such thing as an introvert.
My oldest daughter would feel this pain.
I feel both. I'm a really solid X in the
(47:51):
middle where like I get absolutely rejuvenated and
talking to people and having energy with people and I
absolutely need time by myself to also refuel.
Beautiful. I'm right in the middle.
Yeah. Who is your?
Favorite artist Who's my favorite?
Artist that could be you too. That's funny.
(48:14):
This is funny. I have I have a mixed, I have a
mixed answer for you. OK, There's a Carpenter in India
named Munkle Das who is an artist in his how his brain
works and what he creates and how he is so intelligent in what
he tackles. And his end products are both
(48:37):
beautiful and functional. And so Mungle Das might be my
favorite. That's great.
That's a great name. And then I have a whole slew of
friends. Who are artists?
All the people who contributed art to our books.
Lots of them have become dear friends.
And I would say that the work I see them do.
I don't know if you know this, but when we started with the
Girls Guide to Heavenly Mother and the Boys Guide to Heavenly
(48:58):
Mother, we needed fifty some pieces of art showing Heavenly
Mother and there were five at the time.
And there's recently been a study that released and they
stopped counting at 500. So in about 7 to 8 years, that's
fabulous. This has grown.
That's fantastic. Exponentially.
That's so good. So I would say artists who are.
(49:20):
Revealing truths to us artists who are portraying doctrine that
we've never visually had access to before are my favorite people
who make my brain rework and seethe world in a new way.
There's a Jesus image I saw recently by Chris Ann that shows
a man in a Plaid shirt and a baseball cap and a Halo around
(49:42):
him, and he's working with a plant.
It's clearly Jesus. It's the titles Lord of the
Vineyard. I had never seen Jesus look like
a Mexican immigrant before in mylife.
That's great. And it reordered my brain.
And that kind of art is incredibly more of that, Yeah.
Yes, I agree. Are you a night owl or a morning
lark? Night owl for short.
(50:05):
Who is your celebrity crush? My husband.
OK. Do you?
Distill or carbonated water or you diet soda fan or some other
fun beverage fizzy makes me one of.
Ahmed Oh, no Fizzy for you, no. Fizzy for this place you've
traveled last question the furthest.
Place I've traveled like the longest it took me to get there,
(50:26):
sure I. Mean literally or.
Metaphysically, the depth of my soul is maybe the farthest place
I've ever told. It's a great answer.
I'll take it. I love that answer.
No one's ever responded to that question in that way.
That's a good answer. The depth of your soul.
(50:46):
That's great. So if folks wanted to reach out
with questions for you. Yeah.
Easiest way. Easiest.
Way easiest way is probably Instagram.
I'm on Instagram. Is MacArthur Krishna creating or
my e-mail address is mynamemacarthurkrishna@gmail.com
OK, I'll make. Sure to leave those in the show
notes. Thank you so much for your time
(51:09):
and your insight, your wisdom and sharing of all of your
experience with us. So appreciated.
Appreciate you. Writer.
Teacher. Author, Mormon scholar and
founder of Dialogue journal Eugene England said my faith
encourages my curiosity and awe,thrusts me out into relationship
(51:29):
with all creation, and encourages me to enter into
dialogue. As a proud member of the
Dialogue Podcast Network, my hope is that Living Beyond the
Shadow of Doubt podcast is an extension of that vision.
Visit Megan Skidmore coaching. Dot com to find this podcast and
(51:52):
additional free resources, including the link for a
complimentary coaching session. Follow me on Facebook or
Instagram for more or to send mea DM, help the podcast grow.
Please follow, review and share with a friend.
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