August 29, 2023 • 45 mins
We're thrilled to share our conversation with Dr. Jan Freed, a beacon of wisdom in the realm of leadership.
Dr. Freed, a keynote speaker, leadership expert, and author, is no stranger to the concept of legacy, bringing to the table her invaluable insights on a life lived with a lasting impact. We take a deep dive into her fascinating notion of 'Breadcrumb Legacy', dissecting how leaders can leave significant marks and foster a culture of wisdom, even amidst change and succession.
In the episode, we explore the influence and impact that leaders can have on others even in the way they end a meeting or leave a room. We also get into the power of feedback loops, both in personal growth and organizational evolution. We take a hard look at the dangers of ego and fear-based leadership, the venom they inject into work cultures, and the essential role of self-responsibility in shifting legacies.
Navigating change and grief is crucial in leadership today. We discuss the importance of metabolizing grief to foster resilience and collaboration. And finally, we delve into the qualities needed to foster trust and generosity in an organization, and how having an abundance mindset or servant leadership mindset can support the creation of a healthy culture.
About Jann Freed, PhD
Apart from being a successful leadership consultant Dr. Jann is the author or co-author of five books. In her most recent book, Leading with Wisdom: Sage Advice from 100 Experts, she interviews prominent leadership gurus such as Jim Autry, Marshall Goldsmith, Sally Helgeson, Dan Pink, and Margaret Wheatley. One of the book’s key insights: to be a powerful leader you must keep your ego in check. In other words, it’s hard to be a good leader if you’re not a good person.
Links:
Breadcrumb Legacy: How Great Leaders Live a Life Worth Remembering
Leading With Wisdom: Sage Advice From 100 Experts by Jann E. Freed
TEDx Talks by Jann Freed:
Embracing Death: Life Through A Different Lens
Resources mentioned in the episode:
Leadership and the New Science
The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey leaders, I can't wait for you to meet Dr Jan
Freed in today's episode.
Jan is an accomplished keynotespeaker with a couple of amazing
TEDx talks under her belt, onetitled Embracing Death Life
Through a Different Lens andanother titled Becoming a Nobody
, which looks at ego in the faceof leadership and leadership
(00:22):
development.
She is a leadership expert andalso a five times published
author.
She has a book called BreadcrumLegacy how Great Leaders Live a
Life Worth Remembering, and hermost recent book, which we will
discuss a bit of the findingsfrom inside the episode today,
(00:42):
is called Leading with WisdomSage Advice from 100 Experts.
Jan is an amazing researcheracademic, but she also has the
real world leadershipdevelopment consultancy
experience and brings so muchwisdom into today's episode from
looking at death as a teacherfor how we might embrace grief
(01:05):
during major transitions andchange that we inevitably face
as leaders running companies intoday's world.
What I love about Jan'sbackground is that she is
bringing her academicperspective from all of the
research she's done on topleaders and combining this with
her real world experience incoaching and consulting in her
leadership development work.
(01:25):
Jan has some amazing insightinto the typical symptoms and
behaviors that we might see intoxic work cultures with toxic
leaders versus really healthywork cultures where a leader
might be leading from a place ofauthenticity, generosity,
purpose.
Inside today's episode, we'regoing to get into how a leader
(01:48):
can be leaving a legacy as theyrun their company.
We'll get into what leaving alegacy actually is.
Is that something that you doat the end of your career or
when you leave a position, whenyou leave this earth, or is that
something that we get toconsciously cultivate, bit by
bit throughout our lives?
How can they lead from wisdomand keep wisdom or knowledge
(02:12):
alive and well inside of anorganization, even through
succession?
How can leaders face thecurrent meaning crisis that we
seem to be in to align with alarger sense of purpose?
How can leaders unlock andleverage feedback loops to
become better leaders who areleaving positive legacy, and so
(02:33):
much more.
It's a really valuableconversation.
So glad that you're here foranother week on Living Leaders.
Without further ado, let's getright into our conversation with
Jan.
Jan, welcome to the LivingLeaders podcast.
I'm so excited to have youtoday.
Thank you, I'm honored to behere.
I've been particularly excitedto have this conversation with
(02:54):
you because of your work inleadership and legacy, and I
would love to just help groundlisteners in your background a
little bit before we get intowhat I know is going to be a
really powerful conversation.
So I'd love to hear more abouthow you got to where you are and
what you're working on thesedays that has you feeling alive.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's wonderful.
I was a college professor and Isay that I only did that for
about 30 years, so I taughtundergraduates and a small
liberal arts college in Iowa.
I was a professor of businessmanagement leadership.
In my last 10 years I was anendowed chair in leadership and
character development.
So I really did this deep diveinto leadership when I got that
(03:38):
chair.
And it's an interesting storybecause in 2004, I was granted a
sabbatical and you have to havea research project and I knew I
wanted it to be aroundleadership.
So I attended Jim Collins bookGood to Great had just come out.
He was doing a book tour and soI went to hear him speak and I
(04:00):
wanted to be the last one in theline because I wanted to ask
him a question.
So I said can I come study withyou, be an apprentice?
Can I shadow you?
Can I learn from you?
And he honestly looked at melike he'd never heard that
question before and I said I'mgoing to be on sabbatical and
I'd like to see if I could dothis as part of my sabbatical
work.
And he said oh gosh, I don'treally know.
(04:22):
I've never been asked thatquestion before.
And I pulled out a one pagedocument.
That was an article that he hadwritten for Training Magazine,
and in the center is his picture.
Now it was published in 1999.
This is 2004.
And I said I carried this in myFranklin planner on a daily
basis.
We're not carrying thoseanymore, but that's what I was
(04:44):
doing.
And he said okay, here's my car, give me a call, we'll talk.
When I called him, he said mywife has just been diagnosed
with breast cancer.
We don't really know what'sgoing to happen Now.
To my understanding, everythinghas turned out fine, which is
great.
But at the time he said Ireally cannot take this on as a
commitment, but I will speakwith you for an hour.
(05:05):
On the fall I was also headingup a speech program and we tried
to get him as a speaker, and soI know at the time that he was
charging $5,000 an hour to coachand that it was going to cost
like $45,000 to have him comespeak.
We couldn't afford that.
But I did talk to him for anhour and he helped me frame my
(05:25):
research study, which turned outto be a book called Leading
with Wisdom Sage Advice from 100Experts, and I actually
interviewed more than 100 people, but some really of the top
thought leaders in leadershipWarren Benes, margaret Wheatley,
sally Helgesson, parker Palmer,and the list goes on, and after
(05:46):
analyzing the data, each themethat emerged became a chapter,
and one chapter in the book wascalled Leaders Live their Legacy
, and I found that just reallyresonated with people.
I was getting keynote talks andworkshops requested based on
Leaders Live their Legacy, whichI called Leadership Legacy.
(06:07):
So then I did a deep dive intolegacy work and out of that then
I developed this concept calledBread Crumb Legacy how Great
Leaders Live a Life WorthRemembering, and I'm sure we're
going to talk more about that.
What I do now is I actually leftfull-time teaching after 30
years and for the past 10 yearsI've been teaching a graduate
(06:28):
leadership course for theUniversity of Iowa.
I'm in Des Moines, iowa, but Iprimarily do speaking, writing,
workshops and leadershipcoaching.
So that's where I am now andworking on a big project with a
manufacturing company reallytrying to develop leaders.
Too many people fall intoleadership positions, nicole,
(06:51):
without any training, background, study, reading.
They just fall into it or theyget promoted into it and really
do not understand what it takesto really inspire others.
So I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing.
And you're so right.
Often leaders do findthemselves in these positions
and don't necessarily have thetraining.
Maybe they've been conditionedinto a set of rewards and
incentives that isn't actuallyhealthy for an organizational
culture or leaving a legacy forfuture generations to come.
(07:26):
Here on Living Leaders, we talka lot about that
multi-generational perspectiveof leaving the world a better
place.
We have a lot of sustainabilityprofessionals and executives
who tune into this podcastespecially for them.
I'm really keen to get intoyour specific definition and how
can leaders be thinking aboutliving their legacy?
(07:48):
I love the way you framed onthat.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I imagine that's very intentional of not just leaving
, but also living, and I wantedto tell you that I really like
the name of your podcast,because my definition of a
leader, first of all, it's aperson who's in a position to
influence the lives of others.
That's a very broad definition.
My definition of a leaderincludes parents, pastors,
(08:11):
teachers, coaches more than justbosses or managers and one of
the examples that I often usewhen I do workshops and actually
I'm doing a keynote tomorrowand I'm using this story so
during my sabbatical, which wasabout 2004, I went to a workshop
facilitated by Peter Senghi.
Now, at the time, peter Senghiwas one of the major gurus of
(08:35):
leadership.
This was at MIT and he's theone who coined the phrase
systems thinking.
His main book is the fifthdiscipline and I think it's the
art of system thinking.
In this workshop he starts offby asking us how do we define
leader?
What does it mean to be aleader?
Then he reminded us that theroot word spire S-P-I-R-E or
(09:01):
S-P-I-R Latin root word meansbreath.
He said a leader should breathelife into people, projects and
programs.
I often use that becauseinspiration, aspiration, this
whole idea of breathing lifeinto leaders should breathe life
into.
I often in workshops will sayhave you ever worked for someone
(09:24):
who they just took your breathaway in a very negative way,
like you couldn't breathe or youwere suffocating.
They come into the room and youjust feel like they popped the
balloon.
That is a bad leader.
That is someone who's notbreathing life into people,
programs and projects, buttaking their breath away in a
very negative way.
That's how I look at leadership.
(09:47):
Then legacy I came up with thisconcept when I was doing
workshops on leading with wisdommy book Leading with Wisdom.
I would ask participants I'dsay when do we leave our legacy?
People would say when we leave,and I'd say, okay, leave what?
Leave the earth when we die,leave a job, leave a career when
we retire?
And I'd say that's true.
(10:09):
But I said, what happens when Ileave this room today?
What happens when you leave ameeting?
We are leaving our legacy inbite-sized pieces all along the
way every day.
When we are aware of that andwe look at life like that, then
I think it's our North Star,it's our true North, it's our
guiding light.
(10:29):
It can keep us in our lane andnot get out of control.
So, anyway, that's where I putthe two together.
So breathe light into people,programs and projects and then
be aware that we're leaving ourlegacy.
We're dropping crumbs all thetime and they accumulate, and
these crumbs are not necessarilypositive.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, that's a good call out too that they're not
necessarily always positivebeing aware and intentional
about how we feel when we leavea room or the influence that
we've had on the people whowe've just interacted with.
I love the way that you'reframing this as breadcrumbs and
how it slowly builds over time.
We find ourselves in a momentin work culture right now where
(11:15):
there is, unfortunately, a lotof ego, a lot of fear-based
mentality at certain leadershiplevels.
I know, at least in theorganizations that I've worked
in and helped consult for, wherethere's been more toxic work
culture.
There's typically a fight orflight, reactive state that a
(11:36):
leader might be in.
They're maybe doing their bestto survive, but they might not
always understand how thatreactivity that they're stuck in
is impacting others, to thepoint where, if you're
perpetuating this reactivity inthis fight or flight, we're
actually hijacking thecollective nervous system of our
teams in a way and maybe thoseemployees go on to have lower
(12:00):
quality relationships with theirspouse or they turn to a coping
mechanism like alcohol.
We talk a lot about that piecehere on the podcast and, similar
to your definition, livingleaders are always in the
present moment of theirleadership, starting with self
leadership and taking thatresponsibility, that self
responsibility of how I show upmatters, how I model and embody
(12:24):
my values, the language that Iuse and ensuring that's not
harmful, it all matters.
And so I guess I'm paintingthis picture and inviting us
into the space of imagining atoxic workplace, where maybe a
leader has been trained to leadmore from ego.
What can a leader do to noticethe legacy that they're living
(12:47):
and leaving?
And if they notice that they'renot so happy with their
breadcrumbs and maybe there issome negative impact, what can a
leader begin to do to shift thelegacy that they're creating
day to day?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, first, those are excellent questions and I
just wanted to say that I agreewith everything that you just
said.
In fact, the other day I waslistening to a podcast interview
with the former CEO of IBM andJenny Rometti.
She made a statement that Iwrote down and she said how you
(13:22):
do something will probably beremembered more than what you do
.
So again, that how includestone of voice and where you
communicate and how you deliverthat message and how you make
that decision.
I thought that was a powerfulquote.
I'm a big believer in feedback,because you don't know how
(13:43):
you're being perceived.
You don't know how it'sreceived on the other end.
When I was teaching, I haveseveral what I would call
feedback mechanisms that I wouldcollect on a regular basis,
because usually in highereducation they do faculty
evaluations done at the end ofthe course.
That's too late for me to makethat course better for those
students.
So I would administer my ownvery simple feedback mechanisms
(14:08):
about every three weeks.
Once students understood thatthere are no repercussions, that
they do trust me and I actuallytell them what I will or will
not do based on their feedback,then students just started
sending me ideas.
Have you thought of this, whatif you did that?
What if you made this change?
So I think leaders have toreally be open to feedback and
(14:29):
be asking for it, because ifyou're the boss, unless you've
created a really safeenvironment that I worked hard
to create as a faculty member,unless you do that, people are
less likely to give you feedback.
Once you create the environment,that will tell you how you're
being perceived, what thebreadcrumbs.
And then I think, like you said, self-leadership,
self-awareness we can tell.
(14:49):
I also do workshops onassertiveness and assertive
behavior.
If you know the differencebetween passive, aggressive and
assertive behavior, then youknow when you've made mistakes,
you know when you've been toopassive or you've been too
aggressive and maybe you need toapologize or maybe you need to
speak up more.
I think that self-awareness andthen that with feedback,
(15:10):
because we can control, wecertainly can influence.
I mean it controls too strongof a word control the legacy,
but we can certainly influenceif we're aware of our actions.
A leader's legacy involves howyou say something, how you
behave, what you say, how youinteract All of those are part
(15:31):
of your legacy.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Beautifully said.
It reminds me a little bit ofwhat you often hear in trauma
healing space as well, aroundintent versus impact it's.
I love what you're saying aboutbuilding in as many frequent
feedback loops as you can,because we might not always have
an accurate view of theperception that others have of
(15:54):
us.
What's also fascinating aboutthis, too, is this is how nature
works as well.
Nature builds in as manyiterative feedback loops as it
possibly can to sense, make itscontext, so that it can
appropriately evolve to be a fitfor its context.
We love to geek out onbiomimicry and regenerative
(16:16):
business models at livingleaders, too, very great, it's a
perfect metaphor Excellent.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, and living more like an organism than a machine
, and I think business is at anincredible moment right now
where we're realizing that thetop-down approach isn't the only
approach.
There are more adaptivestructures for our organizations
that might have more idea flow,where people do feel safe to
(16:43):
give feedback.
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, Are you familiar with Margaret
Wheatley's book Leadership inthe New Science?
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Not that book.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Specifically, I love the loops model that she's
telling, that's my favorite bookof hers Leadership in the New
Science and that was the firstbook that I read that really
helped me understandorganizations as living systems
Amazing, amazing.
And I've interviewed her for mylast two books, so I'm a big
(17:13):
fan of Meg Wheatley.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Excellent.
If the audience hasn't readthat book yet, I think that's a
great recommendation for ouraudience as well.
So thank you, wow.
So what I'm hearing is feedbackas a mechanism for better
attuning your breadcrumbs thatyou're leaving, growing that all
through self-awareness.
When it comes to legacy, ifsomeone is stepping down from a
(17:36):
position, I'm teeing thisquestion up because I know from
my work at Leaders on Purpose,where we're working and studying
Fortune 500 CEOs, thatsuccession is a huge challenge
right now, particularly for thelonger-term challenges that
we're facing globally, thesechallenges that will span
multiple generations of humans,let alone multiple generations
(17:58):
of leader and many CEOs.
And so how, if at all, doeslegacy coincide with this
succession challenge that we'reseeing?
How do you pass down the legacyif you're leading the North
Star purpose of an organization?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, one of the concepts or topics that I'm very
passionate about now is lostknowledge, which goes hand in
hand with legacy, like whenpeople leave, retire, when they
get promoted or they move on,take a new job.
How are organizations capturingthat knowledge?
Because it often walks out thedoor.
(18:33):
And what really bothers me iswhen companies offer early
incentive retirement programs topeople at high levels at any
level really, but particularlyat high levels and they offer
them this incentive becausethose people are costing the
most.
So if you want to improve thebottom line, get people who are
making more money to retireearly and then not even try to
(18:57):
capture the knowledge.
That's walking out the door.
It's like very short-sighted.
And there are ways to do that.
You could interview them.
You could videotape theseinterviews.
At six months to a year thatthey're going to be leaving, you
could have a series ofinterviews where you capture
their wisdom.
Some people are walking out withsecrets that nobody else may
know If it's not documented.
(19:18):
I would say they go hand inhand and it is tough.
It's very tough.
Legacy's walking out the door,but not only their legacy but
what they know, and companiesoften invest lots of money.
I had a friend who was workingfor a big feed research company,
and the company paid for he andhis family to live three years
(19:41):
in Italy and collect all thisresearch and do all this work.
And then he got back and thecompany got purchased and so the
headquarter company offered heand people at his level early
retirement to leave, and it'slike they just invested three
years, you know.
So, again, a lot of companies Idon't think they realize what's
(20:04):
walking out the door, and soit's legacy and lost knowledge,
it's everything.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah to your earlier point of organizations as living
systems.
It almost seems if people areleaving the door or even getting
paid to retire early.
It's like this living systemhas amnesia over and over again,
and that's a good point.
The wisdom or the knowledge.
I've never really thought aboutlost wisdom in quite this way,
where there's, it's almost likea leak, and so these different
(20:30):
ways to harness the wisdom.
That brings me to a questionabout culture as well.
An organization, if it'soperating as a living system, if
it's connected to its NorthStar purpose, we can really see
a thriving culture in that sortof context, with those types of
ingredients.
When it comes to leaving alegacy, I'm assuming that these
(20:54):
folks are aware of what bringsthem meaning or what their
purpose or their gifts might be,and I'm seeing this pattern
across many organizations rightnow where we seem to be in a bit
of a meaning crisis.
We might be defining a purposestatement at a very artificial
or superficial level.
But to actually live a life ofpurpose and meaning inside of an
(21:18):
organization and to scale thatsentiment or that embodiment
through a culture, I guess whatdoes it look like in your
experience to create cultures ofmeaning or share a legacy.
Even Can we create legacytogether as teams and as
organizations, if we do havethis North Star purpose that
(21:40):
you're mentioning.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Again.
That's excellent because Ioften say that a vision or
shared values they have to livein your heart, not just live on
the wall in a frame.
They really have to live.
And I think what we're seeinghere is that we're seeing
organizations that don't have aliving purpose, as reflected in
(22:04):
people don't want to go back tothe workplace.
Okay, now I'm generalizingbecause some people do, but I
think if the organizationdoesn't really have a living
purpose as a magnet to drawpeople back, then people say I
can work at home, I like theflexibility.
I'm finding the resistance togoing back to work very
interesting to me because Iwiped going to workplaces.
(22:27):
You know Now I also have donesome research and writing on.
I do think flexibility andautonomy is here to stay.
People want to have morecontrol over the destiny.
But if the organization issaying we want you back in the
workplace, usually three days aweek, you can choose which three
days, unless you have animportant meeting or whatever To
(22:48):
me that seems very reasonable.
One time Meg Wheatley said tome.
She said I'm working with toomany organizations who describe
their employees as the walkingdead, like you know, just
zombies.
And again, if the workplacedoesn't have a culture that is
living, that is thriving, thenpeople would rather be at home.
(23:09):
So I think that this is a goodtest of does the organization
have a culture where people wantto work?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about that
disengagement almost as asymptom, If culture can be on
the spectrum of healthy or tounhealthy what are the symptoms
of each type of context and Ithink when people are really
engaged in meaning, they'reclear on their purpose, they
(23:36):
want to show up to your point,they want to move that mission
forward, to experience the joyof what it's like to embody that
and to be in collaborativespace with one another and, I
suppose, leave that sharedlegacy to some extent.
And yeah, I know that becauseyou mentioned Margaret Wheatley
a couple of times and the pieceof her work that I'm most
(23:59):
familiar with is actually hertwo loops model.
I'll drop a link to that videoon YouTube in the show notes
because it's so good for anylisteners who haven't seen that
I'd have familiar regrets.
Well, that'd be great.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
It's a look at what are theroles that each of us might play
as leaders when we're shiftingfrom one paradigm to the next
(24:22):
Okay, or one set of norms andrules to the next.
And what fascinates me aboutthis and I want to get into a
little bit of your perspectiveon end of life and looking to
end of life is sort of aninspiration for a legacy.
I know you gave a really amazingTEDx talk on this, but in two
loops.
What I find fascinating aboutthis model is that one of the
(24:45):
roles that leaders get to playis the role of hospice worker
and effectively holding spacefor some of the grief to process
and to move through us as welet go of what's no longer
working and we step into a modelthat is updated, upgraded,
whatever it might be, but oftenwe're ignoring the grief process
(25:08):
that comes with big change, andso that model does an amazing
job of that.
But I just wanted to inviteyour perspective on when we are
in the face of big change andsometimes this can almost feel
like a version of ourselves isdying right, whether we're
facing that succession that wewere talking about and leaving
(25:29):
an organization or stepping intoa new role.
There's so many types of changethat can feel like a death of
sorts, and we almost get topractice for that moment to
moment, similar to how you'redescribing building legacy.
So I guess, from yourperspective, what can we learn
from death as a part of lifewhen it comes to building our
(25:50):
legacy?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
As you said, I did a TEDx talk called Embracing Death
, thien Life Through a DifferentLens, and I talk about how,
when I was full-time teaching, Iwould teach undergraduate
students typically age 20 to 22,about grief, death, dying, as a
part of leadership development,and what would be assignments I
would have students do is writetheir own eulogy.
(26:13):
Now I started doing this inabout 2008.
And that was long before DavidBrooks of the New York Times
wrote his book called SecondMountain, where he talks about
eulogy virtues and resume.
Virtues focus on what you'vedone, you've accomplished your
awards.
Eulogy virtues focus on yourcharacter and your being and the
(26:35):
kind of person you are, and itwas a very powerful exercise and
powerful course.
You are so right.
I was so fortunate with myLeading with Wisdom book that I
had a chance to interviewWilliam Bridges.
William Bridges is the experton transition work.
Now he has passed away and anew book came out a year ago by
(26:57):
Bruce Filer of the New YorkTimes, fei-ler, called Life is
in the Transitions, and it'ssimilar to William Bridges' work
but he has a twist on it.
But what I like is both of themstart off with three main
phases, and they're notnecessarily linear, but three
main phases that well, williamBridges said we start with
(27:21):
ending.
So endings are deaths.
So even if you move houses, yousell your house and you move to
a new neighborhood, somethingis ending.
You're getting married,something is ending your
singlehood, your single friends.
You're not losing those friends, but you're no longer single.
Bridges says we start off withending and then we go to.
(27:43):
The next stage is usually whathe calls the neutral zone, and
this is where we're reallyuncomfortable.
We don't really know what'shappening next Now.
Bruce Filer calls that themessy middle.
A lot of people don't like themessy middle.
They don't like that neutralzone.
One example that I often use ispeople will have affairs.
I'm not condoning those, butpeople don't want to leave
(28:06):
something until they havesomething else.
They don't want to be alone inthe messy middle.
They don't want to be alone inthe neutral zone.
Or people will leave a bad joband go to another bad job.
The point of the messy middle isto figure out what didn't work,
what went wrong, how come thatdidn't work, and you need to
figure that out before youreally jump into another
relationship or another job.
(28:27):
It's really important work thatwe need to do, and most people
don't want to do it and then thethird major stage is beginning.
Then we begin something andpeople who really did the work
that is needed in the messymiddle usually end up with a
much stronger, good beginning.
But all of these especially theending something's dying and
(28:48):
there's a lot of grief involved.
So I've done a lot of work inthe whole idea of grief in the
workplace.
I was doing this after thefinancial crisis in 2008.
But now with COVID, yes, peoplewere dying, but industries were
dying.
Companies are dying, the waysof doing things, like you said,
new paradigm of doing work.
It might be very exciting tosay, oh, I get to stay home now,
(29:11):
but other things are dying.
We're missing thatsocialization in the workplace
or our friends.
We could talk just on thistopic alone, because in my book
Leading with Wisdom, death andDying and Grief is part of a
chapter, and then in my bookBread Crumb Legacy, I have an
entire chapter devoted to this.
I call it embracing death.
(29:32):
My students started calling meDr Death because I talk about
death a lot and I plan death theway people plan parties or
wedding.
But I think it's an importantaspect and if we don't
understand our own copingmechanisms, then how can we, as
a leader, help those who workwith us or for us, so I think
it's definitely an importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Wow, I'm so glad to hear that grief work is part of
the leadership model that you'reworking with.
I think it's such a naturalpart of life and of being human.
If we don't process thoseemotions or those feelings, it
can stay in our system andfester.
And I think this is where a lotof the resentment or
(30:14):
disengagement can actually comefrom is we're not actually
metabolizing change to the levelthat we could.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yes, I love how you said that, and I'm also a
hospice volunteer.
As a volunteer, I get a chanceto practice my skills.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Wow, yeah, wow.
That's amazing.
I haven't personally donehospice work, but for a while I
was COO of the Conscious DyingCollective is now what it's
called.
It totally shifted myperspective on leadership and
how, if you're at the helm asthe leader, how do you really
bring people through a griefprocess and a transition process
(30:54):
, and I think the pace at whichwe're having to process this
type of change in transition isonly accelerating.
I also look at changes thatwe're seeing in technology and
emerging tech where, similar towhat you said, entire industries
and companies are dying, entirejob categories are going to be
going away with AI, and so itnever ends.
(31:16):
Our ability and our need tometabolize grief, I think, is
always going to be there in thehuman experience.
But I do want to also highlightone thing you said about this
messy middle and howuncomfortable that can be,
because that's the other piece.
Where I see a lot ofdisengagement start to happen is
when we don't name the change,we don't normalize the grief and
(31:39):
we don't give space or normalcyto actually feeling the
discomfort that comes with that.
People might be like this istoo much, I'm uncomfortable, I'm
going to start to pull back,I'm going to start to put up
those boundaries and we losesome of that collaboration and
reflex that we might have in adifferent environment.
These transitions are onlyincreasingly important in how we
(32:04):
lead transitions as leaders,yeah for sure.
So, jan, I want to switch gearsa little bit and talk about a
very specific type of death, ifyou will.
One thing that really drew meto your work and wanting to have
you on the show is one thingthat you said about keeping your
ego in check.
I actually saw an amazing quotewhere you said it's hard to be
(32:28):
a good leader if you're not agood person.
Yeah, and I just love that.
I couldn't agree more.
In your work of living andleading a legacy, what are the
ways that you're seeing ego turnup or maybe get in the way, and
what do you mean by being agood person to be a good leader?
What does that really mean toyou?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
After all this research and talking to all
these people and I continue tointerview people ego development
really emerged, and so I reallydid the deep dives.
And we have to have an ego orwe won't be able to stand up.
Everybody has to have an ego.
But what happens is the egowants to protect us and the ego
wants us to think you're right,what you said was right, you're
(33:11):
correct, you're not wrong.
Ego can be a defense mechanism.
What happens is when we'reaware of what's happening, then
we can feel the ego kind ofcreeping up and taking control.
Sometimes I use the metaphor ofan elevator and we can feel
these feelings creeping up andwe all have them.
We're human, it's human natureto have lanes of jealousy, greed
(33:33):
, envy.
When we have these feelings,then they often manifest in
behaviors such as defensiveness,not open to feedback,
micromanaging, over controlling,toxic behaviors that lead to a
toxic environment.
And so when we sense thesebehaviors creeping up, we need
to say to ourselves that's nothealthy, I have to let go of
(33:56):
that.
That's not a good way to think,that's not a good way to behave
.
When we're not aware, thenthese behaviors take over and
next thing we could be creatinga toxic environment and not even
aware of it.
One of the questions, nicole,that I like to ask in workshops
is how many of you worked for abad leader?
Now again, my definition ofleader is someone who's in a
(34:17):
position to influence the livesof others teachers, coaches,
parents and hands just shoot upin the air and then I say I
don't think most people wake upin the morning and say today I'm
going to be a bad leader, todayI'm going to be a bad leader no
, but they just get stressed out, they get jealous, envy, greed,
somebody got the promotion theydidn't get and next thing
(34:39):
they're over controlling.
They're telling you what to dothat command, control.
When you work for a toxicleader, that person can
literally make you sick and Iknow that.
I can think of one person in mycareer 40 year career that I
think he was evil.
I think he, I do think he wokeup and said because it was just
too much of a pattern, andinitially I took it personally,
(35:03):
and then, when I startedinvestigating, no, he was doing
this to person after person andreally making people feel bad.
I don't know if he was tryingto destroy self-confidence.
I think the bottom line is hewas extremely insecure, but
because he wasn't willing towork on his insecurities and
didn't know that he was reallycreating a bad environment for a
(35:23):
lot of people and that is not agood legacy.
Well, it's all connected.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
That's so helpful and it connects to what we were
saying earlier about the role ofself-awareness in leadership as
well, and hearing you say youcan notice those thoughts that
come up and you can notice thosebehaviors as a signal that
you're leading from ego andmaybe turning towards that
control.
(35:49):
And it might, unless it'ssomeone who is waking up each
day and wanting to be a badleader.
It can come from a good place.
It can come from a genuineplace of survival of wanting to
feel safe, and so we lean oncontrol.
But this, yeah, this is just sohelpful in thinking about the
behaviors that turn up when wethink about really good,
(36:11):
effective leadership versusleadership that might be
perpetuating toxic culture, evenif that's not the intent.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, that's the intro.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Even if that's just our nervous system.
Yeah, and I'm so curious.
In your latest book I know yougot to interview 100 amazing
leaders.
I'm curious are there any othercommon patterns or behaviors
that you're seeing when it comesto these leaders, who are
coming from more of a sageleadership lens and starting to
(36:41):
weave that legacy?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It is the opposite of an unhealthy leader.
But time after time, interviewafter interview, I would say to
myself or to my husband, I'd saythese people are kind, they're
generous, they're notcompetitive.
Anyone I spoke to, they werewilling to share everything.
It was just like if I had aquestion.
They were so willing to sharetheir time, their wisdom, their
(37:04):
expertise and I was just sograteful I learned so much Like.
My personal mission is tocontinue to learn and to share
what I'm learning with others.
I do that through writing,speaking, coaching.
I write an article for TrainingMagazine, both in print, for
every issue and I'm gonna bewriting about this.
So that's why I want you tosend me the link of that other
(37:27):
person that you interviewedabout death, because I can talk
about your podcast in my articletraining article okay, so I
think it's just really importantthat again, people were they
came from such a good heart, notcompetitive, willing to share,
willing to share their wisdom.
It was just wonderful.
A lot of talk these days abouthaving a mindset of abundance
(37:51):
instead of scarcity, and I hearda quote the other day let me
see if I can say it Thenobscurity is a cousin of greed.
This is when we allow our ownbelief that there is never
enough to keep us from beinggenerous with what we have with
others.
The thin of scarcity is acousin of greed.
(38:11):
So if you're greedy, you'regreedy because you wanna hold on
to things that you thinkinformation is scarce or
information is power, so I don'twanna share it.
But when you have that mindsetthat keeps you from being
generous with what you have,that really struck me because,
again, if you have this mindsetof abundance, you're willing to
(38:32):
share it, because other goodthings will come back to you If
you share it.
But if you're competitive andhave this mindset of scarcity,
then you're less likely tocollaborate and be healthy with
others.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
It reminds me of what you saidearlier too, around feedback
looping.
It's almost like if we're inthat competitive scarcity space
and we're not being in that open, receptive, generous state.
I think we close off a lot ofthe information flow, whether
it's the feedback loops ortransparency that could actually
(39:09):
give people the informationthey need to have a big
breakthrough or to innovate onsomething.
If it's not visible, they won'tbe able to work with it
effectively.
And I love that kindness alsoturned up in the patterns that
you were noticing, because Ithink this really can help
create a culture of trust, and Ithink, particularly with how
(39:34):
our context seems to beunfolding and the role that
leaders are finding themselvesin, where, all of a sudden,
you're not just fiscallyresponsible for your company,
you have to be attuned to thepolitical landscape and the
climate landscape.
It's so complex right now whatleaders are having to navigate
and if we don't have cultures oftrust and generosity and
(39:56):
transparency, I don't know howwe can actually be prepared or
resilient enough to evennavigate these changes.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
So I in many ways relieved that this showed up in
your research, and one of thethings that I think is so
rewarding, a silver lining ofCOVID is that and this was
reflected in quiet quitting, thegreat resignation, the great
reckoning, whatever you want tocall it is that workers are not
gonna put up with a lot ofunhealthy leaders, that finally,
(40:28):
the leadership style orapproach or servant leadership
I'll just put it under the bigumbrella of servant leadership
is finally getting the attentionit deserves, because workers
are saying I'm not gonna put upwith it, I don't have to anymore
, and so therefore, that'sreally rewarding for people like
me, or another person that's ahero of mine, Howard Baehaub,
(40:50):
who was the former I don't knowinternational president of
Starbucks.
He's been beating the drum ofservant leadership for decades
now and it's just rewardingbecause workers are saying we
expect compassion, empathy,trust, understanding,
flexibility, and I think that'sreally important.
One quote I often use isleaders.
(41:12):
Should clear obstacles not bethe obstacle?
Wow, I often ask that inworkshops, how many of you
worked for a leader and thatperson was the obstacle?
They were in the way.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You could have done your job better or faster or
more enjoyable if they were notthere, and that's another way to
get at Good and bad leaders.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
So, yeah, so helpful.
Wow, jan, we've covered so muchground today and I know that
each one of these topics isprobably a deep dive in and of
itself.
But for listeners who want toget to know your work more or
sign up for your newsletter orany of the other resources that
you've mentioned, like yourbooks, where can folks go to
(42:00):
find you and work with you?
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Thank you very much.
The best place is my website,which is janfreecom two N's and
two E's and something might popup, or there's a box on the
website where you can subscribeand if you subscribe, you would
get my monthly newsletter.
That's very easy to read, where, again, I'm sharing what I'm
learning, and you would get amonthly podcast.
(42:23):
So I do interview people on amonthly basis, called Becoming a
Sage.
It's all about life and workwisdom.
So I do have a podcast so youwouldn't be burdened.
If you subscribe, my book canbe.
There's a 20% discount couponfrom the publisher of my latest
book, bread from Legacy, andthat can be found on my website,
(42:44):
or my books can all be found onAmazon.
I'm very active on LinkedIn sothey could look for me on
LinkedIn again Janfree, with twoN's and two E's.
I'm somewhat active onInstagram.
I'm late to the game but I'mtrying.
I'd rather write books andarticles than be on Instagram,
but I'm trying.
But I would say LinkedIn, mywebsite.
(43:06):
If they Google me, things wouldcome up.
They could find me that way too.
I appreciate the opportunity.
I've learned a lot.
You had excellent questions.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Thank you, Jan.
Thank you, and I'll link to allthis in the show notes and
maybe a link to your TEDx aswell, because I think folks
would be interested in that.
Yeah, wow, thank you so muchyou might be interested Nicole.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I also did a TEDx.
It was a virtual TEDx becauseit was during COVID, but it was
called Becoming a Nobody andthat's all about ego.
Oh, perfect.
I would encourage people tocheck that out too.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Amazing.
Oh yeah, so relevant for wherewe ended up in the conversation.
Amazing, wow, jan, thank you somuch for your time and wanting
to give you the final word ifthere's any parting words of
wisdom that you'd love to leavelisteners with today.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I like to say may the rest of light be the best of
lights.
May you be leaving positivebreadcrumbs wherever you go,
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
On that note we will wrap up.
Listeners, Thanks for beinghere and we'll see you next week
for another episode.
Hey leaders, I can't wait for you to meet Dr Jan
Freed in today's episode.
Jan is an accomplished keynotespeaker with a couple of amazing
TEDx talks under her belt, onetitled Embracing Death Life
Through a Different Lens andanother titled Becoming a Nobody
, which looks at ego in the faceof leadership and leadership
(00:22):
development.
She is a leadership expert andalso a five times published
author.
She has a book called BreadcrumLegacy how Great Leaders Live a
Life Worth Remembering, and hermost recent book, which we will
discuss a bit of the findingsfrom inside the episode today,
(00:42):
is called Leading with WisdomSage Advice from 100 Experts.
Jan is an amazing researcheracademic, but she also has the
real world leadershipdevelopment consultancy
experience and brings so muchwisdom into today's episode from
looking at death as a teacherfor how we might embrace grief
(01:05):
during major transitions andchange that we inevitably face
as leaders running companies intoday's world.
What I love about Jan'sbackground is that she is
bringing her academicperspective from all of the
research she's done on topleaders and combining this with
her real world experience incoaching and consulting in her
leadership development work.
(01:25):
Jan has some amazing insightinto the typical symptoms and
behaviors that we might see intoxic work cultures with toxic
leaders versus really healthywork cultures where a leader
might be leading from a place ofauthenticity, generosity,
purpose.
Inside today's episode, we'regoing to get into how a leader
(01:48):
can be leaving a legacy as theyrun their company.
We'll get into what leaving alegacy actually is.
Is that something that you doat the end of your career or
when you leave a position, whenyou leave this earth, or is that
something that we get toconsciously cultivate, bit by
bit throughout our lives?
How can they lead from wisdomand keep wisdom or knowledge
(02:12):
alive and well inside of anorganization, even through
succession?
How can leaders face thecurrent meaning crisis that we
seem to be in to align with alarger sense of purpose?
How can leaders unlock andleverage feedback loops to
become better leaders who areleaving positive legacy, and so
(02:33):
much more.
It's a really valuableconversation.
So glad that you're here foranother week on Living Leaders.
Without further ado, let's getright into our conversation with
Jan.
Jan, welcome to the LivingLeaders podcast.
I'm so excited to have youtoday.
Thank you, I'm honored to behere.
I've been particularly excitedto have this conversation with
(02:54):
you because of your work inleadership and legacy, and I
would love to just help groundlisteners in your background a
little bit before we get intowhat I know is going to be a
really powerful conversation.
So I'd love to hear more abouthow you got to where you are and
what you're working on thesedays that has you feeling alive.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's wonderful.
I was a college professor and Isay that I only did that for
about 30 years, so I taughtundergraduates and a small
liberal arts college in Iowa.
I was a professor of businessmanagement leadership.
In my last 10 years I was anendowed chair in leadership and
character development.
So I really did this deep diveinto leadership when I got that
(03:38):
chair.
And it's an interesting storybecause in 2004, I was granted a
sabbatical and you have to havea research project and I knew I
wanted it to be aroundleadership.
So I attended Jim Collins bookGood to Great had just come out.
He was doing a book tour and soI went to hear him speak and I
(04:00):
wanted to be the last one in theline because I wanted to ask
him a question.
So I said can I come study withyou, be an apprentice?
Can I shadow you?
Can I learn from you?
And he honestly looked at melike he'd never heard that
question before and I said I'mgoing to be on sabbatical and
I'd like to see if I could dothis as part of my sabbatical
work.
And he said oh gosh, I don'treally know.
(04:22):
I've never been asked thatquestion before.
And I pulled out a one pagedocument.
That was an article that he hadwritten for Training Magazine,
and in the center is his picture.
Now it was published in 1999.
This is 2004.
And I said I carried this in myFranklin planner on a daily
basis.
We're not carrying thoseanymore, but that's what I was
(04:44):
doing.
And he said okay, here's my car, give me a call, we'll talk.
When I called him, he said mywife has just been diagnosed
with breast cancer.
We don't really know what'sgoing to happen Now.
To my understanding, everythinghas turned out fine, which is
great.
But at the time he said Ireally cannot take this on as a
commitment, but I will speakwith you for an hour.
(05:05):
On the fall I was also headingup a speech program and we tried
to get him as a speaker, and soI know at the time that he was
charging $5,000 an hour to coachand that it was going to cost
like $45,000 to have him comespeak.
We couldn't afford that.
But I did talk to him for anhour and he helped me frame my
(05:25):
research study, which turned outto be a book called Leading
with Wisdom Sage Advice from 100Experts, and I actually
interviewed more than 100 people, but some really of the top
thought leaders in leadershipWarren Benes, margaret Wheatley,
sally Helgesson, parker Palmer,and the list goes on, and after
(05:46):
analyzing the data, each themethat emerged became a chapter,
and one chapter in the book wascalled Leaders Live their Legacy
, and I found that just reallyresonated with people.
I was getting keynote talks andworkshops requested based on
Leaders Live their Legacy, whichI called Leadership Legacy.
(06:07):
So then I did a deep dive intolegacy work and out of that then
I developed this concept calledBread Crumb Legacy how Great
Leaders Live a Life WorthRemembering, and I'm sure we're
going to talk more about that.
What I do now is I actually leftfull-time teaching after 30
years and for the past 10 yearsI've been teaching a graduate
(06:28):
leadership course for theUniversity of Iowa.
I'm in Des Moines, iowa, but Iprimarily do speaking, writing,
workshops and leadershipcoaching.
So that's where I am now andworking on a big project with a
manufacturing company reallytrying to develop leaders.
Too many people fall intoleadership positions, nicole,
(06:51):
without any training, background, study, reading.
They just fall into it or theyget promoted into it and really
do not understand what it takesto really inspire others.
So I'll stop there.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing.
And you're so right.
Often leaders do findthemselves in these positions
and don't necessarily have thetraining.
Maybe they've been conditionedinto a set of rewards and
incentives that isn't actuallyhealthy for an organizational
culture or leaving a legacy forfuture generations to come.
(07:26):
Here on Living Leaders, we talka lot about that
multi-generational perspectiveof leaving the world a better
place.
We have a lot of sustainabilityprofessionals and executives
who tune into this podcastespecially for them.
I'm really keen to get intoyour specific definition and how
can leaders be thinking aboutliving their legacy?
(07:48):
I love the way you framed onthat.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I imagine that's very intentional of not just leaving
, but also living, and I wantedto tell you that I really like
the name of your podcast,because my definition of a
leader, first of all, it's aperson who's in a position to
influence the lives of others.
That's a very broad definition.
My definition of a leaderincludes parents, pastors,
(08:11):
teachers, coaches more than justbosses or managers and one of
the examples that I often usewhen I do workshops and actually
I'm doing a keynote tomorrowand I'm using this story so
during my sabbatical, which wasabout 2004, I went to a workshop
facilitated by Peter Senghi.
Now, at the time, peter Senghiwas one of the major gurus of
(08:35):
leadership.
This was at MIT and he's theone who coined the phrase
systems thinking.
His main book is the fifthdiscipline and I think it's the
art of system thinking.
In this workshop he starts offby asking us how do we define
leader?
What does it mean to be aleader?
Then he reminded us that theroot word spire S-P-I-R-E or
(09:01):
S-P-I-R Latin root word meansbreath.
He said a leader should breathelife into people, projects and
programs.
I often use that becauseinspiration, aspiration, this
whole idea of breathing lifeinto leaders should breathe life
into.
I often in workshops will sayhave you ever worked for someone
(09:24):
who they just took your breathaway in a very negative way,
like you couldn't breathe or youwere suffocating.
They come into the room and youjust feel like they popped the
balloon.
That is a bad leader.
That is someone who's notbreathing life into people,
programs and projects, buttaking their breath away in a
very negative way.
That's how I look at leadership.
(09:47):
Then legacy I came up with thisconcept when I was doing
workshops on leading with wisdommy book Leading with Wisdom.
I would ask participants I'dsay when do we leave our legacy?
People would say when we leave,and I'd say, okay, leave what?
Leave the earth when we die,leave a job, leave a career when
we retire?
And I'd say that's true.
(10:09):
But I said, what happens when Ileave this room today?
What happens when you leave ameeting?
We are leaving our legacy inbite-sized pieces all along the
way every day.
When we are aware of that andwe look at life like that, then
I think it's our North Star,it's our true North, it's our
guiding light.
(10:29):
It can keep us in our lane andnot get out of control.
So, anyway, that's where I putthe two together.
So breathe light into people,programs and projects and then
be aware that we're leaving ourlegacy.
We're dropping crumbs all thetime and they accumulate, and
these crumbs are not necessarilypositive.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, that's a good call out too that they're not
necessarily always positivebeing aware and intentional
about how we feel when we leavea room or the influence that
we've had on the people whowe've just interacted with.
I love the way that you'reframing this as breadcrumbs and
how it slowly builds over time.
We find ourselves in a momentin work culture right now where
(11:15):
there is, unfortunately, a lotof ego, a lot of fear-based
mentality at certain leadershiplevels.
I know, at least in theorganizations that I've worked
in and helped consult for, wherethere's been more toxic work
culture.
There's typically a fight orflight, reactive state that a
(11:36):
leader might be in.
They're maybe doing their bestto survive, but they might not
always understand how thatreactivity that they're stuck in
is impacting others, to thepoint where, if you're
perpetuating this reactivity inthis fight or flight, we're
actually hijacking thecollective nervous system of our
teams in a way and maybe thoseemployees go on to have lower
(12:00):
quality relationships with theirspouse or they turn to a coping
mechanism like alcohol.
We talk a lot about that piecehere on the podcast and, similar
to your definition, livingleaders are always in the
present moment of theirleadership, starting with self
leadership and taking thatresponsibility, that self
responsibility of how I show upmatters, how I model and embody
(12:24):
my values, the language that Iuse and ensuring that's not
harmful, it all matters.
And so I guess I'm paintingthis picture and inviting us
into the space of imagining atoxic workplace, where maybe a
leader has been trained to leadmore from ego.
What can a leader do to noticethe legacy that they're living
(12:47):
and leaving?
And if they notice that they'renot so happy with their
breadcrumbs and maybe there issome negative impact, what can a
leader begin to do to shift thelegacy that they're creating
day to day?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, first, those are excellent questions and I
just wanted to say that I agreewith everything that you just
said.
In fact, the other day I waslistening to a podcast interview
with the former CEO of IBM andJenny Rometti.
She made a statement that Iwrote down and she said how you
(13:22):
do something will probably beremembered more than what you do
.
So again, that how includestone of voice and where you
communicate and how you deliverthat message and how you make
that decision.
I thought that was a powerfulquote.
I'm a big believer in feedback,because you don't know how
(13:43):
you're being perceived.
You don't know how it'sreceived on the other end.
When I was teaching, I haveseveral what I would call
feedback mechanisms that I wouldcollect on a regular basis,
because usually in highereducation they do faculty
evaluations done at the end ofthe course.
That's too late for me to makethat course better for those
students.
So I would administer my ownvery simple feedback mechanisms
(14:08):
about every three weeks.
Once students understood thatthere are no repercussions, that
they do trust me and I actuallytell them what I will or will
not do based on their feedback,then students just started
sending me ideas.
Have you thought of this, whatif you did that?
What if you made this change?
So I think leaders have toreally be open to feedback and
(14:29):
be asking for it, because ifyou're the boss, unless you've
created a really safeenvironment that I worked hard
to create as a faculty member,unless you do that, people are
less likely to give you feedback.
Once you create the environment,that will tell you how you're
being perceived, what thebreadcrumbs.
And then I think, like you said, self-leadership,
self-awareness we can tell.
(14:49):
I also do workshops onassertiveness and assertive
behavior.
If you know the differencebetween passive, aggressive and
assertive behavior, then youknow when you've made mistakes,
you know when you've been toopassive or you've been too
aggressive and maybe you need toapologize or maybe you need to
speak up more.
I think that self-awareness andthen that with feedback,
(15:10):
because we can control, wecertainly can influence.
I mean it controls too strongof a word control the legacy,
but we can certainly influenceif we're aware of our actions.
A leader's legacy involves howyou say something, how you
behave, what you say, how youinteract All of those are part
(15:31):
of your legacy.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Beautifully said.
It reminds me a little bit ofwhat you often hear in trauma
healing space as well, aroundintent versus impact it's.
I love what you're saying aboutbuilding in as many frequent
feedback loops as you can,because we might not always have
an accurate view of theperception that others have of
(15:54):
us.
What's also fascinating aboutthis, too, is this is how nature
works as well.
Nature builds in as manyiterative feedback loops as it
possibly can to sense, make itscontext, so that it can
appropriately evolve to be a fitfor its context.
We love to geek out onbiomimicry and regenerative
(16:16):
business models at livingleaders, too, very great, it's a
perfect metaphor Excellent.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, and living more like an organism than a machine
, and I think business is at anincredible moment right now
where we're realizing that thetop-down approach isn't the only
approach.
There are more adaptivestructures for our organizations
that might have more idea flow,where people do feel safe to
(16:43):
give feedback.
So I love that.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, Are you familiar with Margaret
Wheatley's book Leadership inthe New Science?
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Not that book.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Specifically, I love the loops model that she's
telling, that's my favorite bookof hers Leadership in the New
Science and that was the firstbook that I read that really
helped me understandorganizations as living systems
Amazing, amazing.
And I've interviewed her for mylast two books, so I'm a big
(17:13):
fan of Meg Wheatley.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Excellent.
If the audience hasn't readthat book yet, I think that's a
great recommendation for ouraudience as well.
So thank you, wow.
So what I'm hearing is feedbackas a mechanism for better
attuning your breadcrumbs thatyou're leaving, growing that all
through self-awareness.
When it comes to legacy, ifsomeone is stepping down from a
(17:36):
position, I'm teeing thisquestion up because I know from
my work at Leaders on Purpose,where we're working and studying
Fortune 500 CEOs, thatsuccession is a huge challenge
right now, particularly for thelonger-term challenges that
we're facing globally, thesechallenges that will span
multiple generations of humans,let alone multiple generations
(17:58):
of leader and many CEOs.
And so how, if at all, doeslegacy coincide with this
succession challenge that we'reseeing?
How do you pass down the legacyif you're leading the North
Star purpose of an organization?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, one of the concepts or topics that I'm very
passionate about now is lostknowledge, which goes hand in
hand with legacy, like whenpeople leave, retire, when they
get promoted or they move on,take a new job.
How are organizations capturingthat knowledge?
Because it often walks out thedoor.
(18:33):
And what really bothers me iswhen companies offer early
incentive retirement programs topeople at high levels at any
level really, but particularlyat high levels and they offer
them this incentive becausethose people are costing the
most.
So if you want to improve thebottom line, get people who are
making more money to retireearly and then not even try to
(18:57):
capture the knowledge.
That's walking out the door.
It's like very short-sighted.
And there are ways to do that.
You could interview them.
You could videotape theseinterviews.
At six months to a year thatthey're going to be leaving, you
could have a series ofinterviews where you capture
their wisdom.
Some people are walking out withsecrets that nobody else may
know If it's not documented.
(19:18):
I would say they go hand inhand and it is tough.
It's very tough.
Legacy's walking out the door,but not only their legacy but
what they know, and companiesoften invest lots of money.
I had a friend who was workingfor a big feed research company,
and the company paid for he andhis family to live three years
(19:41):
in Italy and collect all thisresearch and do all this work.
And then he got back and thecompany got purchased and so the
headquarter company offered heand people at his level early
retirement to leave, and it'slike they just invested three
years, you know.
So, again, a lot of companies Idon't think they realize what's
(20:04):
walking out the door, and soit's legacy and lost knowledge,
it's everything.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Yeah to your earlier point of organizations as living
systems.
It almost seems if people areleaving the door or even getting
paid to retire early.
It's like this living systemhas amnesia over and over again,
and that's a good point.
The wisdom or the knowledge.
I've never really thought aboutlost wisdom in quite this way,
where there's, it's almost likea leak, and so these different
(20:30):
ways to harness the wisdom.
That brings me to a questionabout culture as well.
An organization, if it'soperating as a living system, if
it's connected to its NorthStar purpose, we can really see
a thriving culture in that sortof context, with those types of
ingredients.
When it comes to leaving alegacy, I'm assuming that these
(20:54):
folks are aware of what bringsthem meaning or what their
purpose or their gifts might be,and I'm seeing this pattern
across many organizations rightnow where we seem to be in a bit
of a meaning crisis.
We might be defining a purposestatement at a very artificial
or superficial level.
But to actually live a life ofpurpose and meaning inside of an
(21:18):
organization and to scale thatsentiment or that embodiment
through a culture, I guess whatdoes it look like in your
experience to create cultures ofmeaning or share a legacy.
Even Can we create legacytogether as teams and as
organizations, if we do havethis North Star purpose that
(21:40):
you're mentioning.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Again.
That's excellent because Ioften say that a vision or
shared values they have to livein your heart, not just live on
the wall in a frame.
They really have to live.
And I think what we're seeinghere is that we're seeing
organizations that don't have aliving purpose, as reflected in
(22:04):
people don't want to go back tothe workplace.
Okay, now I'm generalizingbecause some people do, but I
think if the organizationdoesn't really have a living
purpose as a magnet to drawpeople back, then people say I
can work at home, I like theflexibility.
I'm finding the resistance togoing back to work very
interesting to me because Iwiped going to workplaces.
(22:27):
You know Now I also have donesome research and writing on.
I do think flexibility andautonomy is here to stay.
People want to have morecontrol over the destiny.
But if the organization issaying we want you back in the
workplace, usually three days aweek, you can choose which three
days, unless you have animportant meeting or whatever To
(22:48):
me that seems very reasonable.
One time Meg Wheatley said tome.
She said I'm working with toomany organizations who describe
their employees as the walkingdead, like you know, just
zombies.
And again, if the workplacedoesn't have a culture that is
living, that is thriving, thenpeople would rather be at home.
(23:09):
So I think that this is a goodtest of does the organization
have a culture where people wantto work?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, it's interesting to think about that
disengagement almost as asymptom, If culture can be on
the spectrum of healthy or tounhealthy what are the symptoms
of each type of context and Ithink when people are really
engaged in meaning, they'reclear on their purpose, they
(23:36):
want to show up to your point,they want to move that mission
forward, to experience the joyof what it's like to embody that
and to be in collaborativespace with one another and, I
suppose, leave that sharedlegacy to some extent.
And yeah, I know that becauseyou mentioned Margaret Wheatley
a couple of times and the pieceof her work that I'm most
(23:59):
familiar with is actually hertwo loops model.
I'll drop a link to that videoon YouTube in the show notes
because it's so good for anylisteners who haven't seen that
I'd have familiar regrets.
Well, that'd be great.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
It's a look at what are theroles that each of us might play
as leaders when we're shiftingfrom one paradigm to the next
(24:22):
Okay, or one set of norms andrules to the next.
And what fascinates me aboutthis and I want to get into a
little bit of your perspectiveon end of life and looking to
end of life is sort of aninspiration for a legacy.
I know you gave a really amazingTEDx talk on this, but in two
loops.
What I find fascinating aboutthis model is that one of the
(24:45):
roles that leaders get to playis the role of hospice worker
and effectively holding spacefor some of the grief to process
and to move through us as welet go of what's no longer
working and we step into a modelthat is updated, upgraded,
whatever it might be, but oftenwe're ignoring the grief process
(25:08):
that comes with big change, andso that model does an amazing
job of that.
But I just wanted to inviteyour perspective on when we are
in the face of big change andsometimes this can almost feel
like a version of ourselves isdying right, whether we're
facing that succession that wewere talking about and leaving
(25:29):
an organization or stepping intoa new role.
There's so many types of changethat can feel like a death of
sorts, and we almost get topractice for that moment to
moment, similar to how you'redescribing building legacy.
So I guess, from yourperspective, what can we learn
from death as a part of lifewhen it comes to building our
(25:50):
legacy?
Speaker 2 (25:51):
As you said, I did a TEDx talk called Embracing Death
, thien Life Through a DifferentLens, and I talk about how,
when I was full-time teaching, Iwould teach undergraduate
students typically age 20 to 22,about grief, death, dying, as a
part of leadership development,and what would be assignments I
would have students do is writetheir own eulogy.
(26:13):
Now I started doing this inabout 2008.
And that was long before DavidBrooks of the New York Times
wrote his book called SecondMountain, where he talks about
eulogy virtues and resume.
Virtues focus on what you'vedone, you've accomplished your
awards.
Eulogy virtues focus on yourcharacter and your being and the
(26:35):
kind of person you are, and itwas a very powerful exercise and
powerful course.
You are so right.
I was so fortunate with myLeading with Wisdom book that I
had a chance to interviewWilliam Bridges.
William Bridges is the experton transition work.
Now he has passed away and anew book came out a year ago by
(26:57):
Bruce Filer of the New YorkTimes, fei-ler, called Life is
in the Transitions, and it'ssimilar to William Bridges' work
but he has a twist on it.
But what I like is both of themstart off with three main
phases, and they're notnecessarily linear, but three
main phases that well, williamBridges said we start with
(27:21):
ending.
So endings are deaths.
So even if you move houses, yousell your house and you move to
a new neighborhood, somethingis ending.
You're getting married,something is ending your
singlehood, your single friends.
You're not losing those friends, but you're no longer single.
Bridges says we start off withending and then we go to.
(27:43):
The next stage is usually whathe calls the neutral zone, and
this is where we're reallyuncomfortable.
We don't really know what'shappening next Now.
Bruce Filer calls that themessy middle.
A lot of people don't like themessy middle.
They don't like that neutralzone.
One example that I often use ispeople will have affairs.
I'm not condoning those, butpeople don't want to leave
(28:06):
something until they havesomething else.
They don't want to be alone inthe messy middle.
They don't want to be alone inthe neutral zone.
Or people will leave a bad joband go to another bad job.
The point of the messy middle isto figure out what didn't work,
what went wrong, how come thatdidn't work, and you need to
figure that out before youreally jump into another
relationship or another job.
(28:27):
It's really important work thatwe need to do, and most people
don't want to do it and then thethird major stage is beginning.
Then we begin something andpeople who really did the work
that is needed in the messymiddle usually end up with a
much stronger, good beginning.
But all of these especially theending something's dying and
(28:48):
there's a lot of grief involved.
So I've done a lot of work inthe whole idea of grief in the
workplace.
I was doing this after thefinancial crisis in 2008.
But now with COVID, yes, peoplewere dying, but industries were
dying.
Companies are dying, the waysof doing things, like you said,
new paradigm of doing work.
It might be very exciting tosay, oh, I get to stay home now,
(29:11):
but other things are dying.
We're missing thatsocialization in the workplace
or our friends.
We could talk just on thistopic alone, because in my book
Leading with Wisdom, death andDying and Grief is part of a
chapter, and then in my bookBread Crumb Legacy, I have an
entire chapter devoted to this.
I call it embracing death.
(29:32):
My students started calling meDr Death because I talk about
death a lot and I plan death theway people plan parties or
wedding.
But I think it's an importantaspect and if we don't
understand our own copingmechanisms, then how can we, as
a leader, help those who workwith us or for us, so I think
it's definitely an importanttopic.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Wow, I'm so glad to hear that grief work is part of
the leadership model that you'reworking with.
I think it's such a naturalpart of life and of being human.
If we don't process thoseemotions or those feelings, it
can stay in our system andfester.
And I think this is where a lotof the resentment or
(30:14):
disengagement can actually comefrom is we're not actually
metabolizing change to the levelthat we could.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yes, I love how you said that, and I'm also a
hospice volunteer.
As a volunteer, I get a chanceto practice my skills.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Wow, yeah, wow.
That's amazing.
I haven't personally donehospice work, but for a while I
was COO of the Conscious DyingCollective is now what it's
called.
It totally shifted myperspective on leadership and
how, if you're at the helm asthe leader, how do you really
bring people through a griefprocess and a transition process
(30:54):
, and I think the pace at whichwe're having to process this
type of change in transition isonly accelerating.
I also look at changes thatwe're seeing in technology and
emerging tech where, similar towhat you said, entire industries
and companies are dying, entirejob categories are going to be
going away with AI, and so itnever ends.
(31:16):
Our ability and our need tometabolize grief, I think, is
always going to be there in thehuman experience.
But I do want to also highlightone thing you said about this
messy middle and howuncomfortable that can be,
because that's the other piece.
Where I see a lot ofdisengagement start to happen is
when we don't name the change,we don't normalize the grief and
(31:39):
we don't give space or normalcyto actually feeling the
discomfort that comes with that.
People might be like this istoo much, I'm uncomfortable, I'm
going to start to pull back,I'm going to start to put up
those boundaries and we losesome of that collaboration and
reflex that we might have in adifferent environment.
These transitions are onlyincreasingly important in how we
(32:04):
lead transitions as leaders,yeah for sure.
So, jan, I want to switch gearsa little bit and talk about a
very specific type of death, ifyou will.
One thing that really drew meto your work and wanting to have
you on the show is one thingthat you said about keeping your
ego in check.
I actually saw an amazing quotewhere you said it's hard to be
(32:28):
a good leader if you're not agood person.
Yeah, and I just love that.
I couldn't agree more.
In your work of living andleading a legacy, what are the
ways that you're seeing ego turnup or maybe get in the way, and
what do you mean by being agood person to be a good leader?
What does that really mean toyou?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
After all this research and talking to all
these people and I continue tointerview people ego development
really emerged, and so I reallydid the deep dives.
And we have to have an ego orwe won't be able to stand up.
Everybody has to have an ego.
But what happens is the egowants to protect us and the ego
wants us to think you're right,what you said was right, you're
(33:11):
correct, you're not wrong.
Ego can be a defense mechanism.
What happens is when we'reaware of what's happening, then
we can feel the ego kind ofcreeping up and taking control.
Sometimes I use the metaphor ofan elevator and we can feel
these feelings creeping up andwe all have them.
We're human, it's human natureto have lanes of jealousy, greed
(33:33):
, envy.
When we have these feelings,then they often manifest in
behaviors such as defensiveness,not open to feedback,
micromanaging, over controlling,toxic behaviors that lead to a
toxic environment.
And so when we sense thesebehaviors creeping up, we need
to say to ourselves that's nothealthy, I have to let go of
(33:56):
that.
That's not a good way to think,that's not a good way to behave
.
When we're not aware, thenthese behaviors take over and
next thing we could be creatinga toxic environment and not even
aware of it.
One of the questions, nicole,that I like to ask in workshops
is how many of you worked for abad leader?
Now again, my definition ofleader is someone who's in a
(34:17):
position to influence the livesof others teachers, coaches,
parents and hands just shoot upin the air and then I say I
don't think most people wake upin the morning and say today I'm
going to be a bad leader, todayI'm going to be a bad leader no
, but they just get stressed out, they get jealous, envy, greed,
somebody got the promotion theydidn't get and next thing
(34:39):
they're over controlling.
They're telling you what to dothat command, control.
When you work for a toxicleader, that person can
literally make you sick and Iknow that.
I can think of one person in mycareer 40 year career that I
think he was evil.
I think he, I do think he wokeup and said because it was just
too much of a pattern, andinitially I took it personally,
(35:03):
and then, when I startedinvestigating, no, he was doing
this to person after person andreally making people feel bad.
I don't know if he was tryingto destroy self-confidence.
I think the bottom line is hewas extremely insecure, but
because he wasn't willing towork on his insecurities and
didn't know that he was reallycreating a bad environment for a
(35:23):
lot of people and that is not agood legacy.
Well, it's all connected.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
That's so helpful and it connects to what we were
saying earlier about the role ofself-awareness in leadership as
well, and hearing you say youcan notice those thoughts that
come up and you can notice thosebehaviors as a signal that
you're leading from ego andmaybe turning towards that
control.
(35:49):
And it might, unless it'ssomeone who is waking up each
day and wanting to be a badleader.
It can come from a good place.
It can come from a genuineplace of survival of wanting to
feel safe, and so we lean oncontrol.
But this, yeah, this is just sohelpful in thinking about the
behaviors that turn up when wethink about really good,
(36:11):
effective leadership versusleadership that might be
perpetuating toxic culture, evenif that's not the intent.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, that's the intro.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Even if that's just our nervous system.
Yeah, and I'm so curious.
In your latest book I know yougot to interview 100 amazing
leaders.
I'm curious are there any othercommon patterns or behaviors
that you're seeing when it comesto these leaders, who are
coming from more of a sageleadership lens and starting to
(36:41):
weave that legacy?
Speaker 2 (36:42):
It is the opposite of an unhealthy leader.
But time after time, interviewafter interview, I would say to
myself or to my husband, I'd saythese people are kind, they're
generous, they're notcompetitive.
Anyone I spoke to, they werewilling to share everything.
It was just like if I had aquestion.
They were so willing to sharetheir time, their wisdom, their
(37:04):
expertise and I was just sograteful I learned so much Like.
My personal mission is tocontinue to learn and to share
what I'm learning with others.
I do that through writing,speaking, coaching.
I write an article for TrainingMagazine, both in print, for
every issue and I'm gonna bewriting about this.
So that's why I want you tosend me the link of that other
(37:27):
person that you interviewedabout death, because I can talk
about your podcast in my articletraining article okay, so I
think it's just really importantthat again, people were they
came from such a good heart, notcompetitive, willing to share,
willing to share their wisdom.
It was just wonderful.
A lot of talk these days abouthaving a mindset of abundance
(37:51):
instead of scarcity, and I hearda quote the other day let me
see if I can say it Thenobscurity is a cousin of greed.
This is when we allow our ownbelief that there is never
enough to keep us from beinggenerous with what we have with
others.
The thin of scarcity is acousin of greed.
(38:11):
So if you're greedy, you'regreedy because you wanna hold on
to things that you thinkinformation is scarce or
information is power, so I don'twanna share it.
But when you have that mindsetthat keeps you from being
generous with what you have,that really struck me because,
again, if you have this mindsetof abundance, you're willing to
(38:32):
share it, because other goodthings will come back to you If
you share it.
But if you're competitive andhave this mindset of scarcity,
then you're less likely tocollaborate and be healthy with
others.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
It reminds me of what you saidearlier too, around feedback
looping.
It's almost like if we're inthat competitive scarcity space
and we're not being in that open, receptive, generous state.
I think we close off a lot ofthe information flow, whether
it's the feedback loops ortransparency that could actually
(39:09):
give people the informationthey need to have a big
breakthrough or to innovate onsomething.
If it's not visible, they won'tbe able to work with it
effectively.
And I love that kindness alsoturned up in the patterns that
you were noticing, because Ithink this really can help
create a culture of trust, and Ithink, particularly with how
(39:34):
our context seems to beunfolding and the role that
leaders are finding themselvesin, where, all of a sudden,
you're not just fiscallyresponsible for your company,
you have to be attuned to thepolitical landscape and the
climate landscape.
It's so complex right now whatleaders are having to navigate
and if we don't have cultures oftrust and generosity and
(39:56):
transparency, I don't know howwe can actually be prepared or
resilient enough to evennavigate these changes.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
So I in many ways relieved that this showed up in
your research, and one of thethings that I think is so
rewarding, a silver lining ofCOVID is that and this was
reflected in quiet quitting, thegreat resignation, the great
reckoning, whatever you want tocall it is that workers are not
gonna put up with a lot ofunhealthy leaders, that finally,
(40:28):
the leadership style orapproach or servant leadership
I'll just put it under the bigumbrella of servant leadership
is finally getting the attentionit deserves, because workers
are saying I'm not gonna put upwith it, I don't have to anymore
, and so therefore, that'sreally rewarding for people like
me, or another person that's ahero of mine, Howard Baehaub,
(40:50):
who was the former I don't knowinternational president of
Starbucks.
He's been beating the drum ofservant leadership for decades
now and it's just rewardingbecause workers are saying we
expect compassion, empathy,trust, understanding,
flexibility, and I think that'sreally important.
One quote I often use isleaders.
(41:12):
Should clear obstacles not bethe obstacle?
Wow, I often ask that inworkshops, how many of you
worked for a leader and thatperson was the obstacle?
They were in the way.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You could have done your job better or faster or
more enjoyable if they were notthere, and that's another way to
get at Good and bad leaders.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
So, yeah, so helpful.
Wow, jan, we've covered so muchground today and I know that
each one of these topics isprobably a deep dive in and of
itself.
But for listeners who want toget to know your work more or
sign up for your newsletter orany of the other resources that
you've mentioned, like yourbooks, where can folks go to
(42:00):
find you and work with you?
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Thank you very much.
The best place is my website,which is janfreecom two N's and
two E's and something might popup, or there's a box on the
website where you can subscribeand if you subscribe, you would
get my monthly newsletter.
That's very easy to read, where, again, I'm sharing what I'm
learning, and you would get amonthly podcast.
(42:23):
So I do interview people on amonthly basis, called Becoming a
Sage.
It's all about life and workwisdom.
So I do have a podcast so youwouldn't be burdened.
If you subscribe, my book canbe.
There's a 20% discount couponfrom the publisher of my latest
book, bread from Legacy, andthat can be found on my website,
(42:44):
or my books can all be found onAmazon.
I'm very active on LinkedIn sothey could look for me on
LinkedIn again Janfree, with twoN's and two E's.
I'm somewhat active onInstagram.
I'm late to the game but I'mtrying.
I'd rather write books andarticles than be on Instagram,
but I'm trying.
But I would say LinkedIn, mywebsite.
(43:06):
If they Google me, things wouldcome up.
They could find me that way too.
I appreciate the opportunity.
I've learned a lot.
You had excellent questions.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Thank you, Jan.
Thank you, and I'll link to allthis in the show notes and
maybe a link to your TEDx aswell, because I think folks
would be interested in that.
Yeah, wow, thank you so muchyou might be interested Nicole.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
I also did a TEDx.
It was a virtual TEDx becauseit was during COVID, but it was
called Becoming a Nobody andthat's all about ego.
Oh, perfect.
I would encourage people tocheck that out too.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Amazing.
Oh yeah, so relevant for wherewe ended up in the conversation.
Amazing, wow, jan, thank you somuch for your time and wanting
to give you the final word ifthere's any parting words of
wisdom that you'd love to leavelisteners with today.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I like to say may the rest of light be the best of
lights.
May you be leaving positivebreadcrumbs wherever you go,
Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
On that note we will wrap up.
Listeners, Thanks for beinghere and we'll see you next week
for another episode.
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Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com