April 7, 2025 • 27 mins
The kitchen transforms from a place of anxiety to a hub of independence in this revealing conversation with Debra Erickson, founder of The Blind Kitchen. Diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa at 28, Debra shares her remarkable journey from someone who barely cooked to becoming the only blind student in culinary school, and ultimately, an innovative entrepreneur revolutionizing cooking for the visually impaired.
What does adaptive cooking actually look like? Debra demystifies the process with practical solutions that work remarkably well. She explains how simple tools like cafeteria trays can contain spills, Lazy Susans can access items in the back of cupboards, and a quick tap technique can center pans on hot burners. Her talking thermometers ensure food safety while specialized measuring cups with tactile indicators eliminate guesswork from recipes. These aren't just clever workarounds—they're pathways to culinary confidence.
The conversation delves into the psychological barriers that often keep visually impaired people out of the kitchen: fear of making others sick, cutting or burning oneself, and the embarrassment of presenting messy or unappetizing meals. With each fear, Debra offers both specialized tools and mind-shifting strategies that have helped countless individuals reclaim their cooking independence. "I would challenge anyone who thinks they can't cook safely and independently," she says. "You probably can, you just don't know how yet."
Beyond practical advice, this episode captures the spirit of innovation born from necessity. Debra's vision extends to building community among blind cooks through possible virtual dinners and cooking contests. Whether you're facing vision challenges yourself or know someone who is, this conversation will forever change how you think about accessible cooking and the power of adaptive technology to preserve life's simple joys.
www.theblindkitchen.com
Want to be a guest on Living the Dream with Curveball? Send Curtis Jackson a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1628631536976x919760049303001600
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball, if you believe youcan achieve.
Welcome to the Living the Dreamwith Curveball Podcast, a show
where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
(00:24):
Today, we're going to betalking about adaptive cooking,
as I am joined by Debra Ericksonand a few guests that teach,
motivate and inspire.
Today, we're going to betalking about adaptive cooking,
as I am joined by DeborahErickson.
Deborah is the executive chefand founder of the Blind Kitchen
, where she uses adaptiveculinary tools and other
adaptive tools to be able tocook safely despite vision loss.
(00:44):
Deborah suffers from RP, andwe'll let her explain to you
what that is and how she gets tocooking down at the Blind
Kitchen.
So, deborah, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's an honor.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Why don't you start off by telling everybody a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay, I am the executive chef and founder of
the Blind Kitchen, which is anonline company that provides
adaptive cooking tools andstrategies for people with
vision loss who want to cooksafely and confidently and
independently.
I was also the only blindstudent blind student in
(01:25):
culinary school, so that meant Ihad to solve a lot of problems
and after culinary school, whenI got the time, I organized all
that information into differentcategories and that's how the
blind kitchen came to be.
I am blind, I have retinitispigmentosa and very, very little
vision left in one eye Notreally anything usable, but I'm
(01:48):
not completely blind.
So that's kind of who I am.
Well, explain to the listenerswhat RP is Resistant people no,
just kidding.
It stands for retinitispigmentosa and it is eye disease
where the first symptoms arenight blindness and then a loss
(02:12):
of peripheral vision and theneventually that vision just
closes in and takes away yourcentral vision.
There's no cure for it at thispoint in time, but they're
working on it.
But I'm you know, I've justlearned to deal with it and I
was diagnosed at 28.
So I was driving and it cameright out of the blue.
There was no history ofblindness on either side of the
(02:34):
family.
My parents were obviouslyrecessive gene carriers and so I
had worn glasses as a kidbecause I had astigmatism in one
eye, and my older sister woreglasses and so did my dad.
So about once a year we'd allget in the station wagon and go
to our country doctor.
Dr Korn Can't make this stuffup in Indiana, thank you very
(02:57):
much.
So when I was diagnosed we wentback and retrieved the records.
We went back and retrieved therecords and we found there was a
note in my medical record thatsaid Deborah is showing signs of
decreased peripheral vision,and that was at 17.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So it had already been part of my life.
I just wasn't aware of it.
Well, talk to the listenersabout what made you want to
become a chef in the first place.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's a good question.
Not because I like to cook.
It was interesting.
So growing up, I'm one of 12kids.
I have two brothers that haveRP as well.
They're both entrepreneurs aswell, which is kind of fun.
So growing up my mom had sevendaughters, so we didn't get a
lot of in front of the stovetime with mom.
She was basically distributingfood.
(03:48):
It wasn't a big gourmet meal,but she kept us fed and cooked
and I'm very grateful to her.
She was an amazing woman.
But so my part of helping withdinner was to set the table,
peel 10 pounds of potatoes andhelp clean up.
So I didn't grow up cooking.
And when I got married I hadkids, and my youngest son is six
(04:13):
foot five but I did not cookwell for them.
He grew that tall in spite ofme not because of me and the way
I would cook was to open cansand boxes and I'd follow
directions or put something inthe microwave because that's the
only way I knew how to cook.
And then I went on to teach as aprofessional career and when I
(04:35):
had my vision lost, when thelast part fell and I had to go
to the Oregon Commission for theBlind to get my orientation and
mobility skills Mission for theBlind, to get my orientation
and mobility skills, I learnedto read braille, learned to use
adaptive devices, you know, withswipes and gestures and keypad
keyboard commands, and I wastaking a meal prep class and I
(05:02):
she was teaching me how to cookand how to use an oven safely
and stuff like that and a lightbulb went on my head.
I said I think I'd like toteach this.
I'm enjoying myself right nowand you know I'd love to learn.
And then the light bulb wentback off and I'm like but I
don't know how to teach cooking,I don't really know anything
about cooking, and so they, theyand I'm very skills oriented as
(05:23):
a teacher, and so they didallow me to go to culinary
school and I was the only blindstudent there and the chefs were
absolutely fabulous and therewere a lot of problems to be
solved and I didn't geteverything right.
I was always slower than theother students and you get
points knocked off, because ifyou're in a restaurant and
(05:46):
waiting for your steak and yourbaked potato and you know, an
hour and a half, two hours passby and you flag down your server
and say, hey, where's my steak?
Oh, the chef is blind.
She's a little slower thanother people.
People don't want to hear that.
There are certain standardsthat they are training you to
meet, and if I couldn't meetthat standard, it was not a big
deal, and they always said ifyou can't finish on time, finish
(06:09):
strong.
And that was very helpful to me, and so I just let that part go
.
You know, I need to come out.
It's more important for me tocome out with a good product, an
attractive presentation,seasoned well, than to get it to
them quickly if it's not right.
So yeah, so that was culinaryschool, and when I got out, all
(06:30):
I really wanted to do was teachat the Oregon Commission for the
Blind or perhaps another visionloss related, because I wanted
to teach people with vision loss, because that's what I knew new
, and I went to work for thecommission in June of 2019.
And in March of 2020, covid hit.
(06:50):
So I was basically sent homefor a year and a half to twiddle
my thumbs, and that's when Istarted putting all the
information together andorganizing it.
So, and that's how the blindkitchen ended up to be, and then
I was doing both for about ayear.
I had once they brought me backin, but I was starting to drop
balls at both ends and I knew Ihad to choose one or the other
(07:14):
and I felt that my influence andmy ability to help people was
more in the blind kitchen thanteaching one-on-one, which is a
fabulous career and I would havedone that forever and been fine
with it.
But when forced to make achoice, you have to look at the
different parts that are playingand what the effect of this
(07:37):
decision or that decision wouldmake.
And the blind kitchen.
I have not regretted thatdecision, although I do miss
in-person teaching.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, what's the most important culinary tool you use
whenever you're cooking?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
For me it is.
Well, I'm going to do two.
One would be the talkingthermometer, so that I don't
make people sick by undercookingthe food.
That's the only way I'm notgoing to be able to see if it's
no longer pink in the middle orif the juices are running clear.
So the talking thermometer,just in order to cook safely.
But the most used tool in mykitchen is the work tray, and
(08:18):
what they are is basicallystandard cafeteria trays.
So they are.
They have little raised edges,you know, like you've seen in
school or a hospital they're.
They're just those regulartrays but a little bit bigger.
And the reason they are are sohelpful to me is if I'm doing
something and even when I couldsee there were times when I
(08:38):
would spill things, knock itover, move too fast or whatever,
and I'm very, very careful, butit's going to happen.
If you're going to be cooking,you're going to spill something
every now and then.
So let's say, I was measuringout a cup of milk on my counter
and then I accidentally knockover the milk.
Now it's running across mycounter, down the front of my
cupboards onto the floor.
(08:59):
It's going to be a mess andthat's no fun.
But if I happen to spillsomething, an ingredient, wet or
dry, and I'm working over awork tray, chances are that tray
is going to be able to containthe spill, even to the point
where I might, with a funnel, beable to direct the contents of
(09:19):
that spill back into the jar orthe box that it came out of.
I also use those for cuttingboards.
I have never seen one cutthrough.
We used them at the OregonCommission for the Blind and we
would.
We had three cookinginstructors with two or three or
(09:39):
four students in one day.
They went through a lot ofwashing and stuff and we never
had one break.
So I use those for a cuttingboard.
People ask me does it dull theknife?
I suppose it does, but so doesa wooden cutting board.
Anytime you're going to beputting a smooth blade against a
surface, it's going to start todull it, but then you just have
a knife sharpener and you justsharpen it.
(10:00):
So I would say the work traysand the other nice thing about
them is a lot of my customersare people with age-related
vision loss, so they still havesome vision.
They used to be able to be ableto see and they were the cooks
of their family, but now theydon't know how to get back in
the kitchen.
(10:20):
So the other nice thing aboutthose work trays are that you
can use them to organize, getall the ingredients out.
If you're making cookies, youknow, if I'm working with
chicken which can grow bacteriaquickly at room temperature,
then all of those juices andstuff are going to be contained
on that tray, and so we sell awhite one and a black one, and
(10:42):
that way, if you have someresidual virgin left and you're
going to cut a white onion, it'dbe smarter to pick the dark
cutting board so that you couldit'll pop out at you more.
Or if I'm cutting a red onionwhich is dark in color, I might
use the light colored tray,because that's going to give me
the maximum vision that I canget for that particular task.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, give the blind people out there some tips for
organizing their kitchen andtheir pantry.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah.
So there's a couple of ways todo that and there's a library,
literally the Blind KitchenLibrary, full of information.
So some tools that you can useto organize are a Lazy Susan,
which is a platform that you canspin around, Because if I need
a can of something or a box ofsomething in my cupboard, it's
(11:38):
going to be in the back everysingle time.
Even if it's the last thing Iput in there, it is going to
magically go into the back of it.
So instead of me reaching overthe things in the front to grab
that one item I need in the backand then pull my hand out of
the cupboard while I'm holding,I'm going to knock a whole bunch
of more stuff over.
Now all I have to do, if I havethem on this little.
(11:59):
It's only a 10 inch Lazy Susan.
You don't want one much biggerthan that, because then you're
layering things again.
If it's a 10 inches, it's a nicefor cans and most boxes and
stuff, and all I have to do isuse my fingertip to rotate it
180 degrees and now anythingthat was in the back of that
cupboard is now in the front andI'm not going to be knocking
things over.
And if I've got it labeled inbraille or whatever, now my
(12:21):
fingers can much more easilyaccess it.
I also use a lot of bins,baskets, you know containers to
put like things in, like myAsian related cuisine, like rice
wine, vinegar, soy sauce,sesame oil, sesame seeds,
anything that I think I mightneed If I have chosen an Asian
(12:43):
inspired dish.
I can just pull that out andI'll have all that stuff there
without having to look throughevery single one of my bottles.
So those are some ways to keepyou know clean and organized, so
that you know where things areat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What are the most common fears you get or you hear
from visually impaired cooks?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, I absolutely have put thought into this and
the way they come into basicallyfour categories, and I've
already told you one of them thefear of making friends or
family sick by undercooking foodthat could make them sick, and
the tool for that is the talkingthermometer.
But there's also differentstrategies you can use as well.
(13:30):
The other fears are fear ofcutting yourself, fear of
burning yourself, and those arevery real fears.
You're standing in front of ahot pot or a hot stove, or you
have a sharp knife somewherenear you and you can't see it.
If you aren't afraid, you'regoing to be taken out of the
gene pool pretty quickly becausethose are dangerous items that
(13:52):
could cause you harm.
But with the right tools, theright strategies, the right
information, you absolutely canmaster using them.
But you've just got to be verycareful and know how to do it,
and that's part of what theblind kitchen does.
The other fear falls in thethird category of embarrassing
(14:12):
yourself.
So, and that kind of falls intotwo subcategories.
One is the fear of lookingmessy or disorganized.
You know you're knocking thingsover.
Oh, my gosh, I'm losingeverything.
My dishes are dirty.
You know, I didn't see that.
Or, you know, maybe I'm notgoing to be able to do this
right.
There are strategies and toolsto help you get over that fear
(14:37):
and to be very confident thatyou are organized and not
looking messy, looking messy.
And then the other fear ofembarrassment is the fear I
can't see.
I'm going to prepare a platefor you or, you know, for people
to feed them, and I can't seeit.
I can't see what's on the plateand I give it to you.
You can see it.
What if it doesn't look good?
(14:58):
What if it doesn't lookappetizing?
But there are strategies thatyou can use to have beautifully
presented foods in equalportions on different plates.
It's creativity.
It's part of the reason I lovecooking now.
It's because it forced me toconsider creative alternatives,
(15:18):
and that's what the blindkitchen has done.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Well, talk about how a blind person can know if their
pan is centered on a hot burner.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Oh yeah, Good question.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Especially with those flat stoves.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Those are the hardest ones and they inspire the most
fear, because you get the leastamount of information from the
flat top stoves.
However, the strategy I'm goingto tell you right now doesn't
involve any special tools.
It's just knowledge, and itapplies to a gas top stove and
it also applies to, like, anelectric coil stove.
(15:53):
So the principle that you needto remember in order to do this
task with confidence and safelyis that you can touch the top
rim of a very hot pan for just asecond and then literally a tap
and pull your finger back andyou're not going to be burned.
You can't hold it on there forany length of time and you can't
(16:15):
touch hot liquid or hot food,because if you touch hot liquid
or hot food and you just tap itfor a second, it's still going
to come back with your fingerand you can get burnt.
So this only applies to a cleantop rim of a pan, and that
doesn't matter how deep it is orhow shallow it is, it still
applies.
So let's say I'm standing therein front of my on my stove.
(16:35):
What I'm doing, curtis, themost, is to tap the top of my
pan, maybe at two o'clock, maybeat four o'clock, six o'clock,
ten o'clock, you know, andthat's what I'm doing.
And if it is equally hot, eachof my taps all around the pan
are basically the same amount ofheat.
I'm going to know that thatheating element, the heat source
(16:59):
, is centered underneath the pan.
But what if I'm stirring and Iaccidentally nudge the pan and I
don't realize that I've done it?
But what if I'm stirring and Iaccidentally nudge the pan and I
don't realize that I've done it?
The next time I go to check andsee if it's centered?
Let's say it's very hot at 10o'clock, way hotter than 2
o'clock or 3 o'clock or 6o'clock.
What that is telling me is thatthe pan has moved and instead
(17:27):
of that heat being trappedunderneath the pan, it's
traveling up the side of the panat 10 o'clock.
And so then I know I've got tonudge the pan very gently
towards where the pan is hot soI can get it back over the heat
source.
And so I'll do it just a littlebit and then I'll check again.
Give it another minute or so,it's still hot over there by 10
o'clock I better push it alittle bit more.
And then I just keep doing ituntil I'm back on track again,
(17:49):
with the pan being equally hotat the top, with my taps all the
way around.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that you
and your company are working onthat people need to know about.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Oh, good question.
So we've got a couple of moreproducts to put on the store
shelves.
I think we have 94 now.
So that's a lot.
But one thing is I'm writing acookbook, I do my recipes.
They're on the website as well,and they're done in a teaching
version from the beginning ofthe ingredients.
(18:23):
Like if you're making a peachcobbler, I talk about frozen
peaches versus canned peachesversus fresh peaches, and so
that gives you the informationthat you need to make what will
work for you.
And then the other thing I dois if it says you know, mix one
cup of flour, one egg and onehalf cup of sugar.
(18:44):
In the directions it'll oftensay mix the flour, sugar, one
egg and one half cup of sugar.
In the directions it'll oftensay mix the flour, sugar and egg
, but that doesn't give theamount.
So then we've got to navigateour way back up to the top to
find out the three of themunless you're better at
memorizing than I am, because Iam not good at it, and I put
those numbers right in thedirections as well.
So that's a nice helpful thingthat saves us a bit of time.
(19:08):
The other thing I really want todo is create a community.
There's a lot of us out there,not a lot of blind chefs, but a
lot of blind people who love tocook, and it's a bridge between
people.
Food is culturally storytellingholidays.
Food is a very strong motivatorand connector, and so I would
(19:32):
like to.
I know that a lot of people withvision loss because travel can
be difficult to arrange,difficult to do, a lot of people
don't get out as often as Ithink they would like to.
So I am trying to figure out away that I can connect people
with vision loss who like tocook, maybe do cooking contests
(19:56):
or maybe just have a virtual,you know dinner, I don't know.
We've got.
I've got to get the business upand running, for I mean, it is
running.
We've been open since Octoberof 22.
So we've got to keep thepackages going out and stuff
like that.
But once we hit the tippingpoint where I can then focus on
(20:18):
more things that don't generateincome but generate a good
community, that is, I am solooking forward to in some way
building community, and so ifanybody has any ideas, feel free
to reach out.
I'm juggling a lot of thingsaround right now in my head.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Speaking of reaching out, though, I should contact
them for.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh yeah, okay.
So you go to theblindkitchencom.
Make sure you include the wordthe, because Blind Kitchen is a
TV show in Boston where theyblindfold people that can see
perfectly well and give themcooking challenges.
So that's not me.
We can talk about that, but goahead and just put in
theblindkitchencom andeverything on the website.
(21:01):
It's very clean, there are nopop-up ads, it's not cluttered,
it's very screen reader friendlyand very magnifier friendly.
The other thing is, for everytool like, let's say, we talked
about the work trays they wouldcome to you in a package that is
labeled both in large print andbraille, and it reseals so you
(21:22):
can put them back in if you wantto, but with them.
If you say, oh, I don'tremember what she said, what all
I could do with these, let melook it up.
There's an audio describedvideo on the website that tells
you what the tool is and what itdoes, why it's blind friendly
and how to use and care for it.
Because I don't sell thingsthat aren't especially adaptive
(21:45):
for people with vision loss.
I'm just not selling pots andpans or, you know, dinner plates
.
The things that you'll find onthe store shelves address some
challenge that is faced bypeople with cooking loss in the
kitchen.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
We'll close this out with some final thoughts.
Maybe, if that was something Iforgot to talk about, that you
would like to touch on, or anyfinal thoughts you have for the
listeners.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, first of all, I'd like to say this can be done
.
Hundreds of us, not thousandsof us, are doing it, and the
blind kitchen part of themission was to let you sit back
in the comfort of your own homeand take in the information on
the website, whether it's theaudio described videos, or if
(22:32):
you use magnifiers, whatever ittakes, so that you can find out
where your challenge is, andthere's so many challenges like
measuring, picking out the oneabout centering a pan on the
stove.
I get asked about that all thetime.
How do I ground meat?
How do I know when it's cooked?
(22:53):
I can't use a talkingthermometer for that, and so we
have a video on that.
How can you fry an egg or makepancakes?
Because when you put liquidinto a pan or a grill, it's
going to go wherever the heck itwants if you don't have a way
of controlling it.
And so for all of these thingsI've talked about in measuring
wet ingredients that can be anightmare for people, and that
(23:15):
we have a really nice set ofmeasuring cups and spoons on the
website that are also marked,but they're marked with their
stainless steel and the handles.
If it has four dots and they'repart of the handle.
They aren't bump dots, they'renot tactile paint, they are
actually part of the steelhandle itself.
(23:36):
Then you've got a quarter of ateaspoon or a quarter of a cup.
If there's two, because twoit's going to be a half, because
two is on the bottom of thatfraction, and if it's three,
it's going to be a third.
So you don't have to readBraille, you just have to be
able to count and hopefully youhave enough sensitivity in your
fingertips to be able to count.
So these don't work foreveryone, especially if you have
(23:58):
other conditions that mightneuropathy and things like that
that might affect your abilityto feel.
But I've had a lot of people saythat this really has made a
difference.
So I would challenge anyone whothinks that they can't cook
safely and independently.
I would challenge to think thatyou probably can, you just
(24:21):
don't know how yet.
So that would be my message topeople, and if you want to reach
out and talk to me, you canwrite to info at
theblindkitchencom and I wouldlove to have a conversation with
people and serve as kind of aconsultant.
If you're a baker, your needsare probably and challenges are
probably going to be differentthan someone who cooks on top of
(24:43):
the stovetop versus in the oven.
We all have our differentpreferences and our different
styles that we enjoy.
So not everybody needseverything in the blind kitchen
not by any stretch but there aresome things that might
absolutely make your life easier.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen,theblindkitchencom, please be
sure to check out everythingthat Debra's up to Follow, rate
review.
Share this to all your blindand visually impaired friends.
Share it to as many people aspossible.
Jump on your favorite podcastapp.
Follow the show, check us out,like us, leave us a review.
(25:22):
Visit our new website forliving the dream,
wwwcurveball337.com, where youcan leave your feedback and
leave comments and all that goodstuff.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show.
Deborah, thank you for all thatyou do and thank you for
joining me.
No, thank you for having me.
(25:48):
I enjoyed the conversation.
For more information on theLiving the Dream with Curveball
podcast, visitwwwcurveball337.com.
Until next time, keep livingthe dream.
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball, if you believe youcan achieve.
Welcome to the Living the Dreamwith Curveball Podcast, a show
where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
(00:24):
Today, we're going to betalking about adaptive cooking,
as I am joined by Debra Ericksonand a few guests that teach,
motivate and inspire.
Today, we're going to betalking about adaptive cooking,
as I am joined by DeborahErickson.
Deborah is the executive chefand founder of the Blind Kitchen
, where she uses adaptiveculinary tools and other
adaptive tools to be able tocook safely despite vision loss.
(00:44):
Deborah suffers from RP, andwe'll let her explain to you
what that is and how she gets tocooking down at the Blind
Kitchen.
So, deborah, thank you so muchfor joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's an honor.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Why don't you start off by telling everybody a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay, I am the executive chef and founder of
the Blind Kitchen, which is anonline company that provides
adaptive cooking tools andstrategies for people with
vision loss who want to cooksafely and confidently and
independently.
I was also the only blindstudent blind student in
(01:25):
culinary school, so that meant Ihad to solve a lot of problems
and after culinary school, whenI got the time, I organized all
that information into differentcategories and that's how the
blind kitchen came to be.
I am blind, I have retinitispigmentosa and very, very little
vision left in one eye Notreally anything usable, but I'm
(01:48):
not completely blind.
So that's kind of who I am.
Well, explain to the listenerswhat RP is Resistant people no,
just kidding.
It stands for retinitispigmentosa and it is eye disease
where the first symptoms arenight blindness and then a loss
(02:12):
of peripheral vision and theneventually that vision just
closes in and takes away yourcentral vision.
There's no cure for it at thispoint in time, but they're
working on it.
But I'm you know, I've justlearned to deal with it and I
was diagnosed at 28.
So I was driving and it cameright out of the blue.
There was no history ofblindness on either side of the
(02:34):
family.
My parents were obviouslyrecessive gene carriers and so I
had worn glasses as a kidbecause I had astigmatism in one
eye, and my older sister woreglasses and so did my dad.
So about once a year we'd allget in the station wagon and go
to our country doctor.
Dr Korn Can't make this stuffup in Indiana, thank you very
(02:57):
much.
So when I was diagnosed we wentback and retrieved the records.
We went back and retrieved therecords and we found there was a
note in my medical record thatsaid Deborah is showing signs of
decreased peripheral vision,and that was at 17.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
So it had already been part of my life.
I just wasn't aware of it.
Well, talk to the listenersabout what made you want to
become a chef in the first place.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
That's a good question.
Not because I like to cook.
It was interesting.
So growing up, I'm one of 12kids.
I have two brothers that haveRP as well.
They're both entrepreneurs aswell, which is kind of fun.
So growing up my mom had sevendaughters, so we didn't get a
lot of in front of the stovetime with mom.
She was basically distributingfood.
(03:48):
It wasn't a big gourmet meal,but she kept us fed and cooked
and I'm very grateful to her.
She was an amazing woman.
But so my part of helping withdinner was to set the table,
peel 10 pounds of potatoes andhelp clean up.
So I didn't grow up cooking.
And when I got married I hadkids, and my youngest son is six
(04:13):
foot five but I did not cookwell for them.
He grew that tall in spite ofme not because of me and the way
I would cook was to open cansand boxes and I'd follow
directions or put something inthe microwave because that's the
only way I knew how to cook.
And then I went on to teach as aprofessional career and when I
(04:35):
had my vision lost, when thelast part fell and I had to go
to the Oregon Commission for theBlind to get my orientation and
mobility skills Mission for theBlind, to get my orientation
and mobility skills, I learnedto read braille, learned to use
adaptive devices, you know, withswipes and gestures and keypad
keyboard commands, and I wastaking a meal prep class and I
(05:02):
she was teaching me how to cookand how to use an oven safely
and stuff like that and a lightbulb went on my head.
I said I think I'd like toteach this.
I'm enjoying myself right nowand you know I'd love to learn.
And then the light bulb wentback off and I'm like but I
don't know how to teach cooking,I don't really know anything
about cooking, and so they, theyand I'm very skills oriented as
(05:23):
a teacher, and so they didallow me to go to culinary
school and I was the only blindstudent there and the chefs were
absolutely fabulous and therewere a lot of problems to be
solved and I didn't geteverything right.
I was always slower than theother students and you get
points knocked off, because ifyou're in a restaurant and
(05:46):
waiting for your steak and yourbaked potato and you know, an
hour and a half, two hours passby and you flag down your server
and say, hey, where's my steak?
Oh, the chef is blind.
She's a little slower thanother people.
People don't want to hear that.
There are certain standardsthat they are training you to
meet, and if I couldn't meetthat standard, it was not a big
deal, and they always said ifyou can't finish on time, finish
(06:09):
strong.
And that was very helpful to me, and so I just let that part go
.
You know, I need to come out.
It's more important for me tocome out with a good product, an
attractive presentation,seasoned well, than to get it to
them quickly if it's not right.
So yeah, so that was culinaryschool, and when I got out, all
(06:30):
I really wanted to do was teachat the Oregon Commission for the
Blind or perhaps another visionloss related, because I wanted
to teach people with vision loss, because that's what I knew new
, and I went to work for thecommission in June of 2019.
And in March of 2020, covid hit.
(06:50):
So I was basically sent homefor a year and a half to twiddle
my thumbs, and that's when Istarted putting all the
information together andorganizing it.
So, and that's how the blindkitchen ended up to be, and then
I was doing both for about ayear.
I had once they brought me backin, but I was starting to drop
balls at both ends and I knew Ihad to choose one or the other
(07:14):
and I felt that my influence andmy ability to help people was
more in the blind kitchen thanteaching one-on-one, which is a
fabulous career and I would havedone that forever and been fine
with it.
But when forced to make achoice, you have to look at the
different parts that are playingand what the effect of this
(07:37):
decision or that decision wouldmake.
And the blind kitchen.
I have not regretted thatdecision, although I do miss
in-person teaching.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Well, what's the most important culinary tool you use
whenever you're cooking?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
For me it is.
Well, I'm going to do two.
One would be the talkingthermometer, so that I don't
make people sick by undercookingthe food.
That's the only way I'm notgoing to be able to see if it's
no longer pink in the middle orif the juices are running clear.
So the talking thermometer,just in order to cook safely.
But the most used tool in mykitchen is the work tray, and
(08:18):
what they are is basicallystandard cafeteria trays.
So they are.
They have little raised edges,you know, like you've seen in
school or a hospital they're.
They're just those regulartrays but a little bit bigger.
And the reason they are are sohelpful to me is if I'm doing
something and even when I couldsee there were times when I
(08:38):
would spill things, knock itover, move too fast or whatever,
and I'm very, very careful, butit's going to happen.
If you're going to be cooking,you're going to spill something
every now and then.
So let's say, I was measuringout a cup of milk on my counter
and then I accidentally knockover the milk.
Now it's running across mycounter, down the front of my
cupboards onto the floor.
(08:59):
It's going to be a mess andthat's no fun.
But if I happen to spillsomething, an ingredient, wet or
dry, and I'm working over awork tray, chances are that tray
is going to be able to containthe spill, even to the point
where I might, with a funnel, beable to direct the contents of
(09:19):
that spill back into the jar orthe box that it came out of.
I also use those for cuttingboards.
I have never seen one cutthrough.
We used them at the OregonCommission for the Blind and we
would.
We had three cookinginstructors with two or three or
(09:39):
four students in one day.
They went through a lot ofwashing and stuff and we never
had one break.
So I use those for a cuttingboard.
People ask me does it dull theknife?
I suppose it does, but so doesa wooden cutting board.
Anytime you're going to beputting a smooth blade against a
surface, it's going to start todull it, but then you just have
a knife sharpener and you justsharpen it.
(10:00):
So I would say the work traysand the other nice thing about
them is a lot of my customersare people with age-related
vision loss, so they still havesome vision.
They used to be able to be ableto see and they were the cooks
of their family, but now theydon't know how to get back in
the kitchen.
(10:20):
So the other nice thing aboutthose work trays are that you
can use them to organize, getall the ingredients out.
If you're making cookies, youknow, if I'm working with
chicken which can grow bacteriaquickly at room temperature,
then all of those juices andstuff are going to be contained
on that tray, and so we sell awhite one and a black one, and
(10:42):
that way, if you have someresidual virgin left and you're
going to cut a white onion, it'dbe smarter to pick the dark
cutting board so that you couldit'll pop out at you more.
Or if I'm cutting a red onionwhich is dark in color, I might
use the light colored tray,because that's going to give me
the maximum vision that I canget for that particular task.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, give the blind people out there some tips for
organizing their kitchen andtheir pantry.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah.
So there's a couple of ways todo that and there's a library,
literally the Blind KitchenLibrary, full of information.
So some tools that you can useto organize are a Lazy Susan,
which is a platform that you canspin around, Because if I need
a can of something or a box ofsomething in my cupboard, it's
(11:38):
going to be in the back everysingle time.
Even if it's the last thing Iput in there, it is going to
magically go into the back of it.
So instead of me reaching overthe things in the front to grab
that one item I need in the backand then pull my hand out of
the cupboard while I'm holding,I'm going to knock a whole bunch
of more stuff over.
Now all I have to do, if I havethem on this little.
(11:59):
It's only a 10 inch Lazy Susan.
You don't want one much biggerthan that, because then you're
layering things again.
If it's a 10 inches, it's a nicefor cans and most boxes and
stuff, and all I have to do isuse my fingertip to rotate it
180 degrees and now anythingthat was in the back of that
cupboard is now in the front andI'm not going to be knocking
things over.
And if I've got it labeled inbraille or whatever, now my
(12:21):
fingers can much more easilyaccess it.
I also use a lot of bins,baskets, you know containers to
put like things in, like myAsian related cuisine, like rice
wine, vinegar, soy sauce,sesame oil, sesame seeds,
anything that I think I mightneed If I have chosen an Asian
(12:43):
inspired dish.
I can just pull that out andI'll have all that stuff there
without having to look throughevery single one of my bottles.
So those are some ways to keepyou know clean and organized, so
that you know where things areat.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What are the most common fears you get or you hear
from visually impaired cooks?
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, I absolutely have put thought into this and
the way they come into basicallyfour categories, and I've
already told you one of them thefear of making friends or
family sick by undercooking foodthat could make them sick, and
the tool for that is the talkingthermometer.
But there's also differentstrategies you can use as well.
(13:30):
The other fears are fear ofcutting yourself, fear of
burning yourself, and those arevery real fears.
You're standing in front of ahot pot or a hot stove, or you
have a sharp knife somewherenear you and you can't see it.
If you aren't afraid, you'regoing to be taken out of the
gene pool pretty quickly becausethose are dangerous items that
(13:52):
could cause you harm.
But with the right tools, theright strategies, the right
information, you absolutely canmaster using them.
But you've just got to be verycareful and know how to do it,
and that's part of what theblind kitchen does.
The other fear falls in thethird category of embarrassing
(14:12):
yourself.
So, and that kind of falls intotwo subcategories.
One is the fear of lookingmessy or disorganized.
You know you're knocking thingsover.
Oh, my gosh, I'm losingeverything.
My dishes are dirty.
You know, I didn't see that.
Or, you know, maybe I'm notgoing to be able to do this
right.
There are strategies and toolsto help you get over that fear
(14:37):
and to be very confident thatyou are organized and not
looking messy, looking messy.
And then the other fear ofembarrassment is the fear I
can't see.
I'm going to prepare a platefor you or, you know, for people
to feed them, and I can't seeit.
I can't see what's on the plateand I give it to you.
You can see it.
What if it doesn't look good?
(14:58):
What if it doesn't lookappetizing?
But there are strategies thatyou can use to have beautifully
presented foods in equalportions on different plates.
It's creativity.
It's part of the reason I lovecooking now.
It's because it forced me toconsider creative alternatives,
(15:18):
and that's what the blindkitchen has done.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Well, talk about how a blind person can know if their
pan is centered on a hot burner.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Oh yeah, Good question.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Especially with those flat stoves.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Those are the hardest ones and they inspire the most
fear, because you get the leastamount of information from the
flat top stoves.
However, the strategy I'm goingto tell you right now doesn't
involve any special tools.
It's just knowledge, and itapplies to a gas top stove and
it also applies to, like, anelectric coil stove.
(15:53):
So the principle that you needto remember in order to do this
task with confidence and safelyis that you can touch the top
rim of a very hot pan for just asecond and then literally a tap
and pull your finger back andyou're not going to be burned.
You can't hold it on there forany length of time and you can't
(16:15):
touch hot liquid or hot food,because if you touch hot liquid
or hot food and you just tap itfor a second, it's still going
to come back with your fingerand you can get burnt.
So this only applies to a cleantop rim of a pan, and that
doesn't matter how deep it is orhow shallow it is, it still
applies.
So let's say I'm standing therein front of my on my stove.
(16:35):
What I'm doing, curtis, themost, is to tap the top of my
pan, maybe at two o'clock, maybeat four o'clock, six o'clock,
ten o'clock, you know, andthat's what I'm doing.
And if it is equally hot, eachof my taps all around the pan
are basically the same amount ofheat.
I'm going to know that thatheating element, the heat source
(16:59):
, is centered underneath the pan.
But what if I'm stirring and Iaccidentally nudge the pan and I
don't realize that I've done it?
But what if I'm stirring and Iaccidentally nudge the pan and I
don't realize that I've done it?
The next time I go to check andsee if it's centered?
Let's say it's very hot at 10o'clock, way hotter than 2
o'clock or 3 o'clock or 6o'clock.
What that is telling me is thatthe pan has moved and instead
(17:27):
of that heat being trappedunderneath the pan, it's
traveling up the side of the panat 10 o'clock.
And so then I know I've got tonudge the pan very gently
towards where the pan is hot soI can get it back over the heat
source.
And so I'll do it just a littlebit and then I'll check again.
Give it another minute or so,it's still hot over there by 10
o'clock I better push it alittle bit more.
And then I just keep doing ituntil I'm back on track again,
(17:49):
with the pan being equally hotat the top, with my taps all the
way around.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that you
and your company are working onthat people need to know about.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Oh, good question.
So we've got a couple of moreproducts to put on the store
shelves.
I think we have 94 now.
So that's a lot.
But one thing is I'm writing acookbook, I do my recipes.
They're on the website as well,and they're done in a teaching
version from the beginning ofthe ingredients.
(18:23):
Like if you're making a peachcobbler, I talk about frozen
peaches versus canned peachesversus fresh peaches, and so
that gives you the informationthat you need to make what will
work for you.
And then the other thing I dois if it says you know, mix one
cup of flour, one egg and onehalf cup of sugar.
(18:44):
In the directions it'll oftensay mix the flour, sugar, one
egg and one half cup of sugar.
In the directions it'll oftensay mix the flour, sugar and egg
, but that doesn't give theamount.
So then we've got to navigateour way back up to the top to
find out the three of themunless you're better at
memorizing than I am, because Iam not good at it, and I put
those numbers right in thedirections as well.
So that's a nice helpful thingthat saves us a bit of time.
(19:08):
The other thing I really want todo is create a community.
There's a lot of us out there,not a lot of blind chefs, but a
lot of blind people who love tocook, and it's a bridge between
people.
Food is culturally storytellingholidays.
Food is a very strong motivatorand connector, and so I would
(19:32):
like to.
I know that a lot of people withvision loss because travel can
be difficult to arrange,difficult to do, a lot of people
don't get out as often as Ithink they would like to.
So I am trying to figure out away that I can connect people
with vision loss who like tocook, maybe do cooking contests
(19:56):
or maybe just have a virtual,you know dinner, I don't know.
We've got.
I've got to get the business upand running, for I mean, it is
running.
We've been open since Octoberof 22.
So we've got to keep thepackages going out and stuff
like that.
But once we hit the tippingpoint where I can then focus on
(20:18):
more things that don't generateincome but generate a good
community, that is, I am solooking forward to in some way
building community, and so ifanybody has any ideas, feel free
to reach out.
I'm juggling a lot of thingsaround right now in my head.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Speaking of reaching out, though, I should contact
them for.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Oh yeah, okay.
So you go to theblindkitchencom.
Make sure you include the wordthe, because Blind Kitchen is a
TV show in Boston where theyblindfold people that can see
perfectly well and give themcooking challenges.
So that's not me.
We can talk about that, but goahead and just put in
theblindkitchencom andeverything on the website.
(21:01):
It's very clean, there are nopop-up ads, it's not cluttered,
it's very screen reader friendlyand very magnifier friendly.
The other thing is, for everytool like, let's say, we talked
about the work trays they wouldcome to you in a package that is
labeled both in large print andbraille, and it reseals so you
(21:22):
can put them back in if you wantto, but with them.
If you say, oh, I don'tremember what she said, what all
I could do with these, let melook it up.
There's an audio describedvideo on the website that tells
you what the tool is and what itdoes, why it's blind friendly
and how to use and care for it.
Because I don't sell thingsthat aren't especially adaptive
(21:45):
for people with vision loss.
I'm just not selling pots andpans or, you know, dinner plates
.
The things that you'll find onthe store shelves address some
challenge that is faced bypeople with cooking loss in the
kitchen.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
We'll close this out with some final thoughts.
Maybe, if that was something Iforgot to talk about, that you
would like to touch on, or anyfinal thoughts you have for the
listeners.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah, first of all, I'd like to say this can be done
.
Hundreds of us, not thousandsof us, are doing it, and the
blind kitchen part of themission was to let you sit back
in the comfort of your own homeand take in the information on
the website, whether it's theaudio described videos, or if
(22:32):
you use magnifiers, whatever ittakes, so that you can find out
where your challenge is, andthere's so many challenges like
measuring, picking out the oneabout centering a pan on the
stove.
I get asked about that all thetime.
How do I ground meat?
How do I know when it's cooked?
(22:53):
I can't use a talkingthermometer for that, and so we
have a video on that.
How can you fry an egg or makepancakes?
Because when you put liquidinto a pan or a grill, it's
going to go wherever the heck itwants if you don't have a way
of controlling it.
And so for all of these thingsI've talked about in measuring
wet ingredients that can be anightmare for people, and that
(23:15):
we have a really nice set ofmeasuring cups and spoons on the
website that are also marked,but they're marked with their
stainless steel and the handles.
If it has four dots and they'repart of the handle.
They aren't bump dots, they'renot tactile paint, they are
actually part of the steelhandle itself.
(23:36):
Then you've got a quarter of ateaspoon or a quarter of a cup.
If there's two, because twoit's going to be a half, because
two is on the bottom of thatfraction, and if it's three,
it's going to be a third.
So you don't have to readBraille, you just have to be
able to count and hopefully youhave enough sensitivity in your
fingertips to be able to count.
So these don't work foreveryone, especially if you have
(23:58):
other conditions that mightneuropathy and things like that
that might affect your abilityto feel.
But I've had a lot of people saythat this really has made a
difference.
So I would challenge anyone whothinks that they can't cook
safely and independently.
I would challenge to think thatyou probably can, you just
(24:21):
don't know how yet.
So that would be my message topeople, and if you want to reach
out and talk to me, you canwrite to info at
theblindkitchencom and I wouldlove to have a conversation with
people and serve as kind of aconsultant.
If you're a baker, your needsare probably and challenges are
probably going to be differentthan someone who cooks on top of
(24:43):
the stovetop versus in the oven.
We all have our differentpreferences and our different
styles that we enjoy.
So not everybody needseverything in the blind kitchen
not by any stretch but there aresome things that might
absolutely make your life easier.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen,theblindkitchencom, please be
sure to check out everythingthat Debra's up to Follow, rate
review.
Share this to all your blindand visually impaired friends.
Share it to as many people aspossible.
Jump on your favorite podcastapp.
Follow the show, check us out,like us, leave us a review.
(25:22):
Visit our new website forliving the dream,
wwwcurveball337.com, where youcan leave your feedback and
leave comments and all that goodstuff.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show.
Deborah, thank you for all thatyou do and thank you for
joining me.
No, thank you for having me.
(25:48):
I enjoyed the conversation.
For more information on theLiving the Dream with Curveball
podcast, visitwwwcurveball337.com.
Until next time, keep livingthe dream.
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