May 26, 2025 • 34 mins
What if everything you thought you knew about couples therapy was wrong? Dr. Bruce Chalmer joins us to turn conventional relationship wisdom on its head with refreshingly practical insights gained from over three decades working with couples in crisis.
The heart of our conversation centers on a radical redefinition of forgiveness. "Forgiveness is an inside job," Dr. Chalmer explains, separating the personal healing process from the decision to restore trust. This perspective offers newfound power to those who've experienced betrayal, allowing them to heal regardless of whether a relationship continues.
We dive deep into why communication techniques alone can't save struggling relationships. As Dr. Chalmer provocatively states, "The problem isn't that they don't know how to communicate... The problem is what they are communicating." This insight shifts the focus from how couples talk to the fundamental connection between them.
The most fascinating segment explores Dr. Chalmer's framework of "stability and intimacy" as the twin needs all relationships must balance. When couples prioritize stability (comfort and security) at the expense of intimacy (authentic self-expression), they enter what he calls the "death spiral for passion." This pattern explains why seemingly stable partnerships suddenly rupture through infidelity or abrupt endings.
Everything culminates in his elegantly simple seven-word formula: "Be kind, don't panic, and have faith." This mantra, born from years of clinical observation, captures the essence of what makes relationships work. The "faith" component—believing there's meaning even in painful experiences—particularly resonates as a path forward for couples navigating betrayal.
Whether you're healing from relationship trauma, seeking to deepen connection, or simply curious about what makes partnerships thrive, Dr. Chalmer's compassionate wisdom offers fresh perspective on fostering true intimacy while maintaining stability.
Want to be a guest on Living the Dream with Curveball? Send Curtis Jackson a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1628631536976x919760049303001600
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball, if you believe youcan achieve.
Welcome to the Living the Dreamwith Curveball Podcast, a show
where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
(00:24):
Where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
Today, I am joined bypsychologist, writer, podcaster
and consultant, dr Bruce Chalmer.
Dr Chalmer has worked withcouples for over 30 years and
we're going to be talking to himabout all that he is doing to
help couples and theirtherapists.
So, dr Chalmer, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm happy to be here.
Why don't you start off bytelling everybody a little bit
about yourself, sure?
Well, as you said, I'm apsychologist, I live in Vermont,
I've lived here for well over50 years now and I work mostly
with couples.
Now, now I started off doingboth couples and individuals,
but over the years I've reallygotten more and more into
(01:07):
working with couples.
I just find that reallyinspiring.
Uh, you know, people come to seeme and they're dealing with
really hard stuff and I it's.
It's a great privilege to bekind of admitted into their
lives that way and to sit withpeople and to to see what
they're going through, to getthat sense of the struggles
(01:28):
they're having and, um, you knowit's it's difficult, but it's
also really, as I say, it'sinspiring.
And I noted over the years, thethe more I've done it, the more
I've learned from the folksI've worked with, and that's why
I've written some books on thesubject, because it just seems
like I've learned a lot and Iwanted to share that with other
people.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, what made you want to become a psychologist in
the first place?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know I had, I think.
I think this is true of a lotof folks who end up doing what I
do.
I had other careers.
First I was for a while I was astatistician.
Actually I worked at theUniversity of Vermont as the
resident statistician in theircomputer center and I had done
my master's degree in statisticson a very psychological area,
(02:12):
so that kind of got me involvedwith the folks in the psychology
department.
And then I did a PhD inpsychology and it wasn't until I
had gone through some difficultstuff in my own life that I
really got into the clinicalside of things and I decided,
wow, this is a really powerfulthing, I want to be part of it
and I felt like this issomething you know.
(02:33):
It felt more like a calling.
The other stuff I'd been doingwas work I could do and it was
fun, I was good at it, but thisfelt more like a calling.
And so I got the clinicaltraining and did my internships
and that's how I got into beinga psychologist.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay.
Well, let's talk about betrayal.
You know, when couples arefacing betrayal, whether it's
one or the other, is forgivenesspossible.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It is possible and, of course, partly it depends on
how you define the termforgiveness, and I think I do
write about that quite a bit.
You know there are people usethe word forgiveness in at least
two different ways and they'reall you know.
They're common ways of using it.
A lot of times when somebodysays, well, I forgive somebody
who hurt me, what they mean is,I can get past it, I can restore
(03:22):
my relationship, I can trustthem again.
I can just either I mean nobodyever forgets about it.
Really Forgive and forget issort of nonsense.
That's nobody forgets it ifthey've really been hurt, but
they can kind of wipe the slateclean and start over.
And that's often what peoplemean by forgive and that's not
what I mean by forgive.
I mean a much different or amuch maybe a narrower
(03:43):
understanding Forgiveness whenI'm talking about it and I
didn't make up this phrase, butI really like it Forgiveness is
an inside job.
In other words, I can forgivesomebody by letting go of my
anger, letting go of myobsession about it, you know, so
that I don't have to freak outwhenever I think about it.
And I can do that with somebodythat I don't trust.
(04:04):
I can do that with somebody, Istill intend to divorce.
You know I've met folks whohave forgiven people who've been
horribly violent to them, andyou know they still have a
restraining order out on thembut they nevertheless can say
well, I can get past the anger.
I don't trust them, but I canstill get past the anger.
Forgiveness is more abouthealing from the trauma yourself
(04:25):
, and the reason I like todefine forgiveness that way is,
first of all, it means you havethe power to forgive, even if
the other person doesn't deserveit and you have no intention of
restoring the relationship.
It gives you more power and italso means that if you can do
that, if you can heal that way,then you can think more clearly
(04:46):
about what you want to do aboutthe relationship.
Because when you're you know,when you're in a panic, when
every time you think about it,you sort of go become really
angry or become really panickedor become really upset one way
or another, you can't thinkclearly.
You can't understand all right.
Well, what do I want to doabout this relationship?
Think clearly, you can'tunderstand all right.
Well, what do we want to doabout this relationship?
(05:07):
You really need to get to thatplace of healing, so that you
can then say all right now, letme think about what do we do
about this relationship?
So what I've written about inmy most recent book, which is
called Betrayal and Forgivenesshow to Navigate the Turmoil and
Learn to Trust Again, thelearning to trust again part,
that's not just an inside job,that takes both parties, but
it's hard to do that unlessthere's some level of
(05:29):
forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay.
Well, in one of your books youalso talk about how relationship
problems are almost not due tocommunication.
But you know, you heareverybody talk.
They say communication iscommunication.
So you go against that.
And why is that?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I do, and it's that particular book.
It's a pretty snarky title.
It's not about communication,why everything you know about
couples therapy is wrong, whichis a pretty snarky title.
I recognize what I mean by that, of course.
You know people come in, andit's a large majority of the
couples that come in in thefirst session and they're
telling me they need tocommunicate better, and I think
(06:10):
I know what they mean by that.
You know what they mean is,every time they try to
communicate about anything thatthey disagree even a little bit
about, they end up in a bigfight or they end up in a deep
freeze or, you know, it justdoesn't go well.
And so what they're looking foris give us some tools to
communicate better so that, youknow, then we won't get into big
fights.
And the reason I say well, it'snot really about communication.
(06:32):
At least for the vast majorityof people, it's not really about
communication, because theproblem isn't that they don't
know how to communicate.
In fact, they are communicating, usually very, very effectively
.
The problem is what they arecommunicating.
If what they're communicatingyou know, if a couple is
communicating to each otherbasically is love and respect
(06:54):
and honor and you know justkinship.
They're communicating the factthat they really experience each
other as kin and they have abond, even if they disagree and
they can figure out how to getthrough it.
They're communicating that veryeffectively.
The problem is, if what they'recommunicating is disrespect and
contempt and anger and mistrust, they're communicating that
(07:17):
very effectively too.
And no matter how many clevertechniques we teach and you know
there's all kinds of books andall kinds of people who will be
happy to teach you activelistening, and you know
different ways of differentprocedures.
For you know, first make sureyou understand what the other
person said and then say it backto them till they agree that,
yes, you've got what I said, andthen you can say your part.
(07:38):
You know, a couple that isfunctioning well sort of does
that.
They don't do it formally, butthey sort of do those things.
A couple that is functioningwell sort of does that.
They don't do it formally, butthey sort of do those things.
A couple that is notfunctioning well, it doesn't
matter if they do those things,they're still not functioning
well.
You know what I compare it to?
It's the reason couples thatare functioning well more or
less follow those communicationrules, maybe informally.
(08:00):
The reason they do that isbecause they're functioning well
.
They're not functioning wellbecause they do that.
They are doing that becausethey function well.
Just teaching people to followthe communications rules won't
make them function well.
And you know, my favorite,probably pretty silly analogy is
if you think about tennisplayers, you know, like think
about.
The one that comes to my mindis Rafael Nadal.
(08:22):
He's one of many who do this,and you know, when they're
playing tennis at the top level,when they're hitting the ball,
they're grunting loudly.
They're making a big, huge,loud grunt.
And so if somebody said, well,okay, if you want to learn to be
a top tennis player, all youhave to learn to do is grunt
really loud, because that's whatthe top tennis players do, well
, that wouldn't work very wellbecause the grunting they're not
(08:46):
top tennis players becausethey're grunting.
They may well be gruntingbecause that's associated with
being a top tennis player, butthat won't make you a top tennis
player.
It's the same thing.
Teaching communication ruleswon't make a couple function
better.
They have to function better inorder to follow the rules and
then you don't need the rules.
So that was kind of the wholeidea of that book.
It's not about communication.
(09:07):
I actually had.
I have a bunch of other stuff inthat book too about.
You know, if the therapistthinks that rigidly following
these rules is going to getpeople any place, they're
probably doing harm, not good,and that I extend that idea
pretty broadly.
You know, if we all have ideasand ideas, ideas are good things
(09:27):
to exchange and people oftendisagree, and when they can
actually hear each otherdisagreeing about their ideas,
then both parties are learningsomething and maybe being
challenged, but certainly theirknowledge is being deepened.
If people's ideas harden intoideologies, in other words when
it's no longer about exchangingideas, it's about defending your
(09:50):
side, then they don't hear eachother anymore.
And that happens with couplesand that happens more broadly.
It happens in politics, ithappens in relationships in the
world.
And when ideas harden intoideologies, they're no longer
good ideas, they becomecaricatures of themselves, and
so that happens a lot withcouples and it happens a lot
(10:12):
with therapists.
Unfortunately, therapists willsort of fit people into their
favorite boxes and it doesn'twork well.
So that's kind of what thatbook was about as well.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Well, I know you also talk about how instability and
intimacy is the two golden keys.
Talk about what you mean bythat and why tolerating anxiety
is a key to intimacy.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know, when I work with acouple in the first session, my
first sessions are prettystructured.
At least the first part of myfirst sessions with couples are
pretty structured.
After that it's more likeimprov theater.
You sort of follow where themeaning goes.
But the first session I almostalways give a little mini
lecture on the two needs thatwe're trying to fulfill by being
(11:07):
in a couple.
You know why do we human beingspair up the way we do?
You could say well, you know,we're mammals and that's how we
reproduce.
We reproduce sexually.
So you need one of each.
Yeah, that's true, butobviously that doesn't account
for all the relationships peoplehave where they're not having
kids.
It doesn't account for peoplewho are past the age of
childbearing but still want topair up.
(11:27):
You know why do we want to pairup?
So there's a lot of reasons whypeople want to do that, but
among them, what I say is we'retrying to fulfill these two sets
of needs and I call themstability and intimacy, and
they're both really important.
But the reason I talk aboutthem separately is the skills
you need for stability are verydifferent from the skills you
(11:49):
need for intimacy, so I I'lltalk briefly about each one.
If you think about what does ittake for a couple to be stable,
first of all, what do we mean bystability?
I just mean in a pretty simpleway I just mean if it's stable,
it's not shaky, so you're notworried about it much.
It's about the anxiety level.
You know if, if somebody's in astable relationship what I mean
by that is neither party isterribly worried about it.
(12:10):
They're thinking well, we'redoing good, so we're fine.
And of course, in the firstsession, nobody, ever, no couple
, has ever consulted me just totell me how stable everything
was.
You know, if it's that stable,what do they need a couples
therapist for?
So I realized there's alwayssome degree of instability
happening or they wouldn't beconsulting me.
But many of the people I wouldsay most, pretty substantially,
(12:31):
most of the couples that consultme, they're pretty good in the
stability department in thesense that, you know, maybe
they've been together a longtime.
Just that itself speaks ofstability.
They're probably.
I almost always say this toevery couple in the first
session.
There have been very fewexceptions over 30 years where I
(12:51):
will note about 20 minutes andI'll say well, I can tell
something about the two of younow that we're old buddies
because I've known you for 20minutes.
Neither one of you is totallycrazy and they will usually
laugh and look.
I don't mean to make fun ofserious mental health issues,
because again, every once in awhile I haven't said that
because somebody is maybe havinga manic episode or somebody is
having a psychotic break orsomething like that.
(13:12):
But most of the folks I workwith aren't crazy and they're
not evil and they're not stupid.
So they're usually pretty goodin.
You know, those are those,especially the part about you
know being fundamentally notcrazy.
That helps with stability.
So typically they're prettygood at stability.
(13:36):
But intimacy is a wholedifferent thing and you know, if
you think about stability, allthe skills of stability are
about keeping the anxiety levelrelatively low.
Intimacy I mean somethingdifferent, and here I better
define my terms because I don'tjust mean sex there.
What I mean is more generally.
Intimacy is when you show upwith yourself, you know, honest
(13:56):
with yourself and honest witheach other in the relationship.
And you know no couple isintimate 24-7 in that way.
You know I get distracted frommyself, we all do, but when a
couple can actually be in eachother's presence, both letting
themselves know what they thinkand feel and letting each other
know what they think and feel.
That's what I mean by intimacy.
(14:17):
That can happen in aconversation, that can happen
sexually, that can happen allkinds of ways.
So intimacy is every bit asmuch of a need as stability.
And if you think about it, Imentioned stability is all about
keeping the anxiety level low.
The chief skill of intimacy isto tolerate anxiety rather than
avoid it.
To tolerate anxiety withouttotally freaking out.
(14:40):
And why do I say that?
Well, because if you thinkabout what intimacy entails, you
know when it's a lovelyencounter, when you're having a
lovely conversation or havinggreat sex or something like that
, that doesn't involve anxiety.
But think about other thingsthat involve being honest with
your partner.
What if you want to justcomplain about something?
(15:01):
What if you just want to say,hey, I wish you wouldn't do X, y
or Z that you're doing, or Iwish you would do more of X, y
or Z that you're not doing?
You know that's going to raiseanxiety.
It's not fun to hear acomplaint from somebody.
So since you know it's going toraise anxiety, that's probably
going to raise your own anxietyas well, and especially if a
(15:21):
couple has had difficulty withconversations that raise anxiety
.
A lot of times that's what goesoff the rails and they get into
a fight or, you know, they getinto a deep freeze or something
like that.
Then that's going to raiseanxiety even more because they
you know they have a history ofthat not working out well.
And the problem is, if theyavoid that and so people will
(15:42):
start to do that, they theyworry about you know they don't
want to rock the boat too muchbecause they want things to be
stable.
They worry about you know theydon't want to rock the boat too
much because they want things tobe stable, so they won't bring
up things that they need tobring up, and over time that
builds up and people get into afight about anything or nothing.
So, basically, my favoritemetaphor about stability and
intimacy is if you think about aplant, a seed, that gets
(16:04):
planted in fertile soil, andwhat will it do?
It'll germinate, it'll sprout,it'll start to grow, and then
somebody comes along and pavesthe sidewalk over it.
Now, why would anybody pave asidewalk over it?
Well, they put in sidewalksbecause it's more stable.
That helps with stability.
Well, what's that seed going todo.
It's going to try and crack thesidewalk or it will die trying
(16:24):
one or the other.
It won't just sit there, andthat's what I point out.
If you think about that plant,the roots provide stability, but
intimacy is the energy forgrowth and we all of us are
living organisms and a couple isa living organism, more than
just the two people in it.
And living organisms want togrow.
They want to interact withtheir environment and grow.
(16:46):
And it feels really dead if youdon't.
And what happens is if intimacygets compromised because people
aren't able to be, or willing tobe, honest and honest with
themselves and each other.
What happens over time issomebody tries to crack the
sidewalk.
Metaphorically.
Now, what does that look likein a couple?
Well, when a couple tries tocrack the sidewalk, it will look
(17:08):
like something like, forexample, infidelity.
It'll look like an affair.
Sometimes It'll look likesomebody getting very depressed.
It'll look like somebody all ofa sudden, you know, without
warning, just saying I'm out ofhere, I'm leaving you, I'm done,
you know, sort of blindsidingthe other person.
All kinds of possibilities.
(17:29):
But often those things are thesymptoms, if you will, of lack
of intimacy.
So a lot of the work I do withcouples.
You know I orient people tothis because it seems like it's
really helpful and people keeptelling me it's helpful.
A lot of the work with couplesis helping them tolerate that
anxiety so that they can thenactually be honest with
(17:49):
themselves and each other, andthen they can get someplace.
Then they can actually start tohear each other.
Even though it's scary, theycan start to hear each other.
And when they do, that's whenyou know, that's when the magic
happens.
It's not really magic, butthat's when change can happen.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well describe the death spiral for passion and how
that actually happens.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, it's kind of related to what I was just
talking about.
So what happens with couples?
You know, a couple getstogether, they fall in love,
they get together, maybe theyget married, maybe they have
kids, and having kids tends toreally up the ante on stability.
You know, stability is reallyimportant, especially when you
have kids, and so they perhapsstart to avoid rocking the boat.
(18:37):
And that's what I mean by thatdeath spiral.
Because what happens is if youavoid telling your partner how
you feel about something that'simportant to you, you know, I
mean, people can let stuff slideall the time and it's not a
problem.
If you can just laugh it off,it's no big deal.
But if it is a big deal but youdon't do anything about it,
over time that builds up andthat's what happens.
(18:59):
What happens is if people startavoiding saying how they feel,
that is what.
What follows from that is lackof intimacy.
They lose touch with each other.
They sometimes lose touch withthemselves, and a couple that
has lost touch with each otherdoesn't stay stable.
Uh, as I say, somebody is goingto try and metaphorically crack
(19:19):
the sidewalk, and so that'sthat's what I mean by the death
spiral for intimacy and it, youknow, and I say a lot of the
folks consulting me, I did forone of my books, I did sort of
an informal guess.
It really wasn't a count, but Idid an informal guess about what
percent of the couples that Isee in the first session are
dealing with infidelity or asimilar kind of betrayal.
(19:41):
And it's close to half.
Close to half dealing withinfidelity per se.
And often not always, but ofteninfidelity is all about that
sense of you know they've gonethrough that death spiral for
passion and it feels dead andsomebody you know, one or both
of them, are tempted by somebodyelse because they are so
missing that sense of feelingalive.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, let's talk about your seven word formula,
describe it and tell us how thatcame about go.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I was in a consultation group meeting with
a bunch of other I don't knowfive or six other therapists.
We get together to meet andtalk about our work and it just
gives each other feedback andhelps us out.
It helps us learn.
And I don't remember what wewere talking about that day.
We must've been talking aboutcouples therapy because we were
getting up to leave and one ofthe other therapists, who was a
friend of mine also, we werewalking out the door and he
(20:51):
turned to me and he said how doyou do couples therapy anyway,
which is kind of a sillyquestion to ask?
We've just had a whole meetingon it and we both had years of
training in it.
And like, how am I supposed toanswer that?
Walking out the door?
But I had actually been givingit some thought over the time
I'd been in training and thetime I'd been doing it in
private practice.
And if you really boil it alldown this is what I was thinking
(21:13):
initially If you boil it alldown, what am I really trying to
convey to the folks I work with?
I'm trying to convey basicallybe kind and don't panic.
And what I mean by be kind issimply don't.
I don't just mean be nice Imean, yes, we should all be nice
to each other but I mean berecognize that you are kin, you
(21:34):
are family, you are a team, youknow You're in the same tribe
with people.
Recognize that sense of kinship, because that's what keeps a
couple wanting to stay in acouple when they feel that sense
of kinship strongly.
And I, if you're in a panic,you can't be kind.
If you're in fight or flight orfreeze mode, it's very
(21:54):
difficult to feel that sense ofkinship if you're really feeling
at risk.
So a lot of the work of therapyI was realizing was about
helping people not panic.
It's like, well, we teach thesetechniques that maybe you can
manage to avoid panic.
So be kind and don't panic.
That's five words, not seven.
And I started sharing that withsome of the folks I worked with
(22:18):
and they would tell me wow,that's a really interesting idea
.
I get why, in order to be kind,you need to not panic.
Now what the problem is.
How am I supposed to not panic?
And I realized, yeah, that's aproblem.
How do I answer that?
I know I don't have a simpleanswer, for how do you not panic
other than just saying don'tpanic, which really doesn't help
much.
(22:39):
But I did notice something aboutthe couples that I worked with.
What I noticed was that thecouples that seem to be able to
not panic, even though they'redealing with really hard stuff I
mentioned, like infidelity oryou know, things of that sort
the couples that would come inand they were hurt and they were
(22:59):
, you know, in a lot of pain.
But the ones who could manageit had a particular mindset and
I decided what I would call themindset is faith, and I don't
necessarily mean religious faith, although it's not inconsistent
with religious faith.
But what I mean by faith isthey had this mindset that says,
even though this is painful,there's got to be something
(23:22):
important about it, there's gotto be something right about it.
Even though somebody didsomething that was morally wrong
and nobody was disagreeingabout that, still there was
something meaningful about it.
We better look at.
That's what I mean by faith.
The couples that came in andjust said, oh no, we just want
to go back to how it was, it wasfine.
They're not showing faith.
They're basically trying todeny reality.
(23:43):
The couples that could reallyaccept reality and accept that
there was something importantabout it, something right about
it.
Those are the ones that we'reable to not panic.
So I added two words to mylittle formula and it came up
with a seven word formula whichis be kind, don't panic and have
faith.
You have to count and to getseven words, be kind, don't
(24:04):
panic and have faith.
And that has been reallyhelpful in just sort of
organizing my thinking.
And you know I've I've workedwith a lot of couples where
they'll put it on therefrigerator.
You know, be kind, don't panicand have faith, because it
reminds them.
Especially the have faith partis the tricky part, it's a
practice.
It reminds them that if theycan recognize, they're both
(24:25):
valid people.
You know that's a statement offaith.
They're valid people.
If things are going wrong it'snot because they're crazy, evil
or stupid, it's because thingscan go wrong even for really
good people and they have to beable to hear what's happening
enough to be able to possiblywork through it.
So that's where the seven wordscame from.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Well, how do you use your own faith personally when
you're working with couples?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You know, I think that's the main thing I offer
people.
I mean there's a lot of ways ofunderstanding that.
I suppose you know what's themain thing the therapist offers.
I mean one way of saying it isthe therapist is the calm
nervous system in the room.
You know that helps, but thatreally is about faith.
It's about I have faith in thepeople.
(25:15):
You know that helps, but thatreally is about faith.
It's about I have faith in thepeople that I work with.
You know, when I made that sortof statement in general, the
kind of blanket statement ingeneral, the folks I work with
are not crazy, evil or stupid.
They're just not.
You know, another element offaith that's part of my own
understanding is I knowsomething I know I do not know
better than they do how theyshould live their lives.
(25:37):
I am not there to tell them howthey should live their lives.
I am there to help them figureit out because my faith says
they're valid.
You know, we all have theexperiences we have and they're
all different and there's avalidity to it.
And again, I'm not, I'm notexcluding morality is important,
morality is very important.
But even when somebody has donesomething flat out immoral, you
(25:59):
know, like cheating on theirspouse or something that doesn't
make them an invalid person.
It means, you know, even goodpeople do bad stuff sometimes,
and if you can look at it withcuriosity, that's what lets
people then see gee, how did Ido that?
You know, how could I have donesomething that was so wrong?
(26:19):
And I know it's wrong, but yetI did what made that possible?
They can look at that with someunderstanding and that's what
will help them heal, that's whatwill help them regain their
sense of being a good person.
So my own faith that's reallywhere I'm coming from.
If I didn't really believe thatpeople are fundamentally valid
(26:41):
to be who they are, you know, ina religious sense I mean, I'm
Jewish and I'm very active in myJewish faith and I think it's
certainly fundamental to Judaismand I'm pretty sure it's
fundamental to Christianity aswell.
Of all the folks I've talkedwith, the vast majority of
people I work with, of course,are Christian.
Where I live, it's a smallJewish community here, and so I
(27:01):
know many of the people and so Icouldn't work with them
professionally, you know.
But it's certainly true in thefaiths.
I'm aware of that basic senseof recognizing that people,
we're all children of God andwe're you know we're valid in
that sense, even when we mess up.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Tell the listeners about your podcast, tell us
where we can hear it and what wecan expect when we listen to it
.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah Well, the podcast is called Couples
Therapy in Seven Words.
That's based on that seven wordmotto be kind, don't panic and
have faith and we started itback in 2020.
My first book came out February29th 2020.
Now, if you think aboutFebruary 29th, it's leap day,
right Of 2020.
(27:50):
What was happening at the endof February of 2020?
Well, just in time, I released abook, just in time for
everything to shut down becauseof the pandemic, so couldn't do
any sort of in-person, you know,book signing event or anything
like that.
So my wife and I decided well,let's do a Facebook live event.
(28:10):
So we did a Facebook live eventand I asked my wife to do it my
wife, judy Alexander becauseshe just has a wonderful voice
and a wonderful way about herand she's you know, she's really
, she's really good in that kindof situation and we have a lot
of fun doing it together.
So we did that Facebook liveand a lot of people said, oh,
you guys were great, you shoulddo a podcast.
And then, right around the sametime, I got interviewed on a
(28:31):
podcast much like yours, aboutmy book, and the person we did
the interview with she said, hey, you should do a podcast.
So I said, all right, why not,it was fun.
So we started it back in 2025.
I mean back in 2020.
It's now been, as of the time ofthis recording, almost five
years, and what you'll hear, ifyou hear it, is oh, over half of
(28:53):
our we've had 200 and I don'tknow 210 or something like that,
some number like that episodeso far, and well over half of
them we have a guest again, muchas you do, and we interview all
kinds of fascinating people,anything to do with
relationships we're apt to talkabout.
So we've interviewed people allover the map, literally all
over the map, because we'veinterviewed people all over the
map, literally all over the map,because we've interviewed
(29:14):
people from as far away asAustralia and Europe and all
over the world.
And if it's something aboutrelationships, we probably talk
about it, and that's what we'vebeen doing.
And so we've also recentlystarted to do what I call some
short takes, where I just do,for example, the little talk I
(29:35):
gave a little while ago aboutstability and intimacy.
I do a short take on stabilityand intimacy.
So if people want to hear ourpodcast, it's on all the podcast
platforms.
If you just look for CouplesTherapy in 7 Words.
Or you can go to our podcastwebsite, which is CTin7,.
That's the number 7, ctn7.
That's for couples therapy inseven ctn7.com.
(29:57):
That'll get you there.
And you can also go to mywebsite, which is
brucechalmercom.
So as long as you spell my nameright, you'll get it
brucechalmercom, where there'sinformation about my practice,
about my books, and you can geta link to the podcast through
that and also I have anewsletter that I do on
(30:19):
Substacks.
All that stuff's availablethrough BruceChalmercom.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're
working on that listeners needto be aware of you know I don't
have a book in progress rightnow.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I've been working mostly on promoting my most
recent book, which is the one Imentioned, betrayal and
Forgiveness.
We're still doing.
We're doing some reallyinteresting podcasts coming up,
but I don't like to, I don'tlike to give promissory notes
about them until they actuallyhappen.
But we have some reallyfascinating people lined up to
interview.
I also do a lot of music.
(30:55):
I have on my sub stack Iactually put a tab there about
some of the music projects I'vebeen doing.
I'm a composer and I sing in achoral group and I also lead the
choir at our synagogue.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
So I'm involved heavily in music and I do a lot
of that as well our synagogue,so I'm involved heavily in music
and I do a lot of that as well.
Okay, you answered my nextquestion.
Your website, brucechalmercom.
So close us out with some finalthoughts.
Maybe, if that was something Iforgot to talk about, that you
would like to touch on, or anyfinal thoughts you?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
have for the listeners.
I think you know, if I were tosummarize it, that seven words
kind of just summarizes it.
Obviously you have to thinkabout those three principles Be
kind, don't panic and have faith.
But I find that's a reallyuseful summary for folks just as
a way of getting started, andso I invite people to consider
(31:48):
that.
And you know it tends to givepeople a little bit of
perspective on things that Ithink is really useful when
they're dealing with seriousproblems.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen,brucecharmacom, please be sure
to check out his website, hisbooks and his podcast.
Follow rate review.
Share this episode to as manycouples or as many people as you
think this will help aspossible.
Follow us on your favoritepodcast app.
Visit wwwcurveball337.com formore information on the Living
(32:24):
the Dream with Curveball podcast.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show and, dr
Chalmer, thank you for all thatyou do and thank you for joining
me.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Well, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
For more information on the Living the Dream with
Curveball podcast, visitwwwcurveball337.com.
Until next time, keep livingthe dream.
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball, if you believe youcan achieve.
Welcome to the Living the Dreamwith Curveball Podcast, a show
where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
(00:24):
Where I interview guests thatteach, motivate and inspire.
Today, I am joined bypsychologist, writer, podcaster
and consultant, dr Bruce Chalmer.
Dr Chalmer has worked withcouples for over 30 years and
we're going to be talking to himabout all that he is doing to
help couples and theirtherapists.
So, dr Chalmer, thank you somuch for joining me today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, thanks for having me on.
I'm happy to be here.
Why don't you start off bytelling everybody a little bit
about yourself, sure?
Well, as you said, I'm apsychologist, I live in Vermont,
I've lived here for well over50 years now and I work mostly
with couples.
Now, now I started off doingboth couples and individuals,
but over the years I've reallygotten more and more into
(01:07):
working with couples.
I just find that reallyinspiring.
Uh, you know, people come to seeme and they're dealing with
really hard stuff and I it's.
It's a great privilege to bekind of admitted into their
lives that way and to sit withpeople and to to see what
they're going through, to getthat sense of the struggles
(01:28):
they're having and, um, you knowit's it's difficult, but it's
also really, as I say, it'sinspiring.
And I noted over the years, thethe more I've done it, the more
I've learned from the folksI've worked with, and that's why
I've written some books on thesubject, because it just seems
like I've learned a lot and Iwanted to share that with other
people.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, what made you want to become a psychologist in
the first place?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You know I had, I think.
I think this is true of a lotof folks who end up doing what I
do.
I had other careers.
First I was for a while I was astatistician.
Actually I worked at theUniversity of Vermont as the
resident statistician in theircomputer center and I had done
my master's degree in statisticson a very psychological area,
(02:12):
so that kind of got me involvedwith the folks in the psychology
department.
And then I did a PhD inpsychology and it wasn't until I
had gone through some difficultstuff in my own life that I
really got into the clinicalside of things and I decided,
wow, this is a really powerfulthing, I want to be part of it
and I felt like this issomething you know.
(02:33):
It felt more like a calling.
The other stuff I'd been doingwas work I could do and it was
fun, I was good at it, but thisfelt more like a calling.
And so I got the clinicaltraining and did my internships
and that's how I got into beinga psychologist.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay.
Well, let's talk about betrayal.
You know, when couples arefacing betrayal, whether it's
one or the other, is forgivenesspossible.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
It is possible and, of course, partly it depends on
how you define the termforgiveness, and I think I do
write about that quite a bit.
You know there are people usethe word forgiveness in at least
two different ways and they'reall you know.
They're common ways of using it.
A lot of times when somebodysays, well, I forgive somebody
who hurt me, what they mean is,I can get past it, I can restore
(03:22):
my relationship, I can trustthem again.
I can just either I mean nobodyever forgets about it.
Really Forgive and forget issort of nonsense.
That's nobody forgets it ifthey've really been hurt, but
they can kind of wipe the slateclean and start over.
And that's often what peoplemean by forgive and that's not
what I mean by forgive.
I mean a much different or amuch maybe a narrower
(03:43):
understanding Forgiveness whenI'm talking about it and I
didn't make up this phrase, butI really like it Forgiveness is
an inside job.
In other words, I can forgivesomebody by letting go of my
anger, letting go of myobsession about it, you know, so
that I don't have to freak outwhenever I think about it.
And I can do that with somebodythat I don't trust.
(04:04):
I can do that with somebody, Istill intend to divorce.
You know I've met folks whohave forgiven people who've been
horribly violent to them, andyou know they still have a
restraining order out on thembut they nevertheless can say
well, I can get past the anger.
I don't trust them, but I canstill get past the anger.
Forgiveness is more abouthealing from the trauma yourself
(04:25):
, and the reason I like todefine forgiveness that way is,
first of all, it means you havethe power to forgive, even if
the other person doesn't deserveit and you have no intention of
restoring the relationship.
It gives you more power and italso means that if you can do
that, if you can heal that way,then you can think more clearly
(04:46):
about what you want to do aboutthe relationship.
Because when you're you know,when you're in a panic, when
every time you think about it,you sort of go become really
angry or become really panickedor become really upset one way
or another, you can't thinkclearly.
You can't understand all right.
Well, what do I want to doabout this relationship?
Think clearly, you can'tunderstand all right.
Well, what do we want to doabout this relationship?
(05:07):
You really need to get to thatplace of healing, so that you
can then say all right now, letme think about what do we do
about this relationship?
So what I've written about inmy most recent book, which is
called Betrayal and Forgivenesshow to Navigate the Turmoil and
Learn to Trust Again, thelearning to trust again part,
that's not just an inside job,that takes both parties, but
it's hard to do that unlessthere's some level of
(05:29):
forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Okay.
Well, in one of your books youalso talk about how relationship
problems are almost not due tocommunication.
But you know, you heareverybody talk.
They say communication iscommunication.
So you go against that.
And why is that?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I do, and it's that particular book.
It's a pretty snarky title.
It's not about communication,why everything you know about
couples therapy is wrong, whichis a pretty snarky title.
I recognize what I mean by that, of course.
You know people come in, andit's a large majority of the
couples that come in in thefirst session and they're
telling me they need tocommunicate better, and I think
(06:10):
I know what they mean by that.
You know what they mean is,every time they try to
communicate about anything thatthey disagree even a little bit
about, they end up in a bigfight or they end up in a deep
freeze or, you know, it justdoesn't go well.
And so what they're looking foris give us some tools to
communicate better so that, youknow, then we won't get into big
fights.
And the reason I say well, it'snot really about communication.
(06:32):
At least for the vast majorityof people, it's not really about
communication, because theproblem isn't that they don't
know how to communicate.
In fact, they are communicating, usually very, very effectively
.
The problem is what they arecommunicating.
If what they're communicatingyou know, if a couple is
communicating to each otherbasically is love and respect
(06:54):
and honor and you know justkinship.
They're communicating the factthat they really experience each
other as kin and they have abond, even if they disagree and
they can figure out how to getthrough it.
They're communicating that veryeffectively.
The problem is, if what they'recommunicating is disrespect and
contempt and anger and mistrust, they're communicating that
(07:17):
very effectively too.
And no matter how many clevertechniques we teach and you know
there's all kinds of books andall kinds of people who will be
happy to teach you activelistening, and you know
different ways of differentprocedures.
For you know, first make sureyou understand what the other
person said and then say it backto them till they agree that,
yes, you've got what I said, andthen you can say your part.
(07:38):
You know, a couple that isfunctioning well sort of does
that.
They don't do it formally, butthey sort of do those things.
A couple that is functioningwell sort of does that.
They don't do it formally, butthey sort of do those things.
A couple that is notfunctioning well, it doesn't
matter if they do those things,they're still not functioning
well.
You know what I compare it to?
It's the reason couples thatare functioning well more or
less follow those communicationrules, maybe informally.
(08:00):
The reason they do that isbecause they're functioning well
.
They're not functioning wellbecause they do that.
They are doing that becausethey function well.
Just teaching people to followthe communications rules won't
make them function well.
And you know, my favorite,probably pretty silly analogy is
if you think about tennisplayers, you know, like think
about.
The one that comes to my mindis Rafael Nadal.
(08:22):
He's one of many who do this,and you know, when they're
playing tennis at the top level,when they're hitting the ball,
they're grunting loudly.
They're making a big, huge,loud grunt.
And so if somebody said, well,okay, if you want to learn to be
a top tennis player, all youhave to learn to do is grunt
really loud, because that's whatthe top tennis players do, well
, that wouldn't work very wellbecause the grunting they're not
(08:46):
top tennis players becausethey're grunting.
They may well be gruntingbecause that's associated with
being a top tennis player, butthat won't make you a top tennis
player.
It's the same thing.
Teaching communication ruleswon't make a couple function
better.
They have to function better inorder to follow the rules and
then you don't need the rules.
So that was kind of the wholeidea of that book.
It's not about communication.
(09:07):
I actually had.
I have a bunch of other stuff inthat book too about.
You know, if the therapistthinks that rigidly following
these rules is going to getpeople any place, they're
probably doing harm, not good,and that I extend that idea
pretty broadly.
You know, if we all have ideasand ideas, ideas are good things
(09:27):
to exchange and people oftendisagree, and when they can
actually hear each otherdisagreeing about their ideas,
then both parties are learningsomething and maybe being
challenged, but certainly theirknowledge is being deepened.
If people's ideas harden intoideologies, in other words when
it's no longer about exchangingideas, it's about defending your
(09:50):
side, then they don't hear eachother anymore.
And that happens with couplesand that happens more broadly.
It happens in politics, ithappens in relationships in the
world.
And when ideas harden intoideologies, they're no longer
good ideas, they becomecaricatures of themselves, and
so that happens a lot withcouples and it happens a lot
(10:12):
with therapists.
Unfortunately, therapists willsort of fit people into their
favorite boxes and it doesn'twork well.
So that's kind of what thatbook was about as well.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Well, I know you also talk about how instability and
intimacy is the two golden keys.
Talk about what you mean bythat and why tolerating anxiety
is a key to intimacy.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
You know, when I work with acouple in the first session, my
first sessions are prettystructured.
At least the first part of myfirst sessions with couples are
pretty structured.
After that it's more likeimprov theater.
You sort of follow where themeaning goes.
But the first session I almostalways give a little mini
lecture on the two needs thatwe're trying to fulfill by being
(11:07):
in a couple.
You know why do we human beingspair up the way we do?
You could say well, you know,we're mammals and that's how we
reproduce.
We reproduce sexually.
So you need one of each.
Yeah, that's true, butobviously that doesn't account
for all the relationships peoplehave where they're not having
kids.
It doesn't account for peoplewho are past the age of
childbearing but still want topair up.
(11:27):
You know why do we want to pairup?
So there's a lot of reasons whypeople want to do that, but
among them, what I say is we'retrying to fulfill these two sets
of needs and I call themstability and intimacy, and
they're both really important.
But the reason I talk aboutthem separately is the skills
you need for stability are verydifferent from the skills you
(11:49):
need for intimacy, so I I'lltalk briefly about each one.
If you think about what does ittake for a couple to be stable,
first of all, what do we mean bystability?
I just mean in a pretty simpleway I just mean if it's stable,
it's not shaky, so you're notworried about it much.
It's about the anxiety level.
You know if, if somebody's in astable relationship what I mean
by that is neither party isterribly worried about it.
(12:10):
They're thinking well, we'redoing good, so we're fine.
And of course, in the firstsession, nobody, ever, no couple
, has ever consulted me just totell me how stable everything
was.
You know, if it's that stable,what do they need a couples
therapist for?
So I realized there's alwayssome degree of instability
happening or they wouldn't beconsulting me.
But many of the people I wouldsay most, pretty substantially,
(12:31):
most of the couples that consultme, they're pretty good in the
stability department in thesense that, you know, maybe
they've been together a longtime.
Just that itself speaks ofstability.
They're probably.
I almost always say this toevery couple in the first
session.
There have been very fewexceptions over 30 years where I
(12:51):
will note about 20 minutes andI'll say well, I can tell
something about the two of younow that we're old buddies
because I've known you for 20minutes.
Neither one of you is totallycrazy and they will usually
laugh and look.
I don't mean to make fun ofserious mental health issues,
because again, every once in awhile I haven't said that
because somebody is maybe havinga manic episode or somebody is
having a psychotic break orsomething like that.
(13:12):
But most of the folks I workwith aren't crazy and they're
not evil and they're not stupid.
So they're usually pretty goodin.
You know, those are those,especially the part about you
know being fundamentally notcrazy.
That helps with stability.
So typically they're prettygood at stability.
(13:36):
But intimacy is a wholedifferent thing and you know, if
you think about stability, allthe skills of stability are
about keeping the anxiety levelrelatively low.
Intimacy I mean somethingdifferent, and here I better
define my terms because I don'tjust mean sex there.
What I mean is more generally.
Intimacy is when you show upwith yourself, you know, honest
(13:56):
with yourself and honest witheach other in the relationship.
And you know no couple isintimate 24-7 in that way.
You know I get distracted frommyself, we all do, but when a
couple can actually be in eachother's presence, both letting
themselves know what they thinkand feel and letting each other
know what they think and feel.
That's what I mean by intimacy.
(14:17):
That can happen in aconversation, that can happen
sexually, that can happen allkinds of ways.
So intimacy is every bit asmuch of a need as stability.
And if you think about it, Imentioned stability is all about
keeping the anxiety level low.
The chief skill of intimacy isto tolerate anxiety rather than
avoid it.
To tolerate anxiety withouttotally freaking out.
(14:40):
And why do I say that?
Well, because if you thinkabout what intimacy entails, you
know when it's a lovelyencounter, when you're having a
lovely conversation or havinggreat sex or something like that
, that doesn't involve anxiety.
But think about other thingsthat involve being honest with
your partner.
What if you want to justcomplain about something?
(15:01):
What if you just want to say,hey, I wish you wouldn't do X, y
or Z that you're doing, or Iwish you would do more of X, y
or Z that you're not doing?
You know that's going to raiseanxiety.
It's not fun to hear acomplaint from somebody.
So since you know it's going toraise anxiety, that's probably
going to raise your own anxietyas well, and especially if a
(15:21):
couple has had difficulty withconversations that raise anxiety
.
A lot of times that's what goesoff the rails and they get into
a fight or, you know, they getinto a deep freeze or something
like that.
Then that's going to raiseanxiety even more because they
you know they have a history ofthat not working out well.
And the problem is, if theyavoid that and so people will
(15:42):
start to do that, they theyworry about you know they don't
want to rock the boat too muchbecause they want things to be
stable.
They worry about you know theydon't want to rock the boat too
much because they want things tobe stable, so they won't bring
up things that they need tobring up, and over time that
builds up and people get into afight about anything or nothing.
So, basically, my favoritemetaphor about stability and
intimacy is if you think about aplant, a seed, that gets
(16:04):
planted in fertile soil, andwhat will it do?
It'll germinate, it'll sprout,it'll start to grow, and then
somebody comes along and pavesthe sidewalk over it.
Now, why would anybody pave asidewalk over it?
Well, they put in sidewalksbecause it's more stable.
That helps with stability.
Well, what's that seed going todo.
It's going to try and crack thesidewalk or it will die trying
(16:24):
one or the other.
It won't just sit there, andthat's what I point out.
If you think about that plant,the roots provide stability, but
intimacy is the energy forgrowth and we all of us are
living organisms and a couple isa living organism, more than
just the two people in it.
And living organisms want togrow.
They want to interact withtheir environment and grow.
(16:46):
And it feels really dead if youdon't.
And what happens is if intimacygets compromised because people
aren't able to be, or willing tobe, honest and honest with
themselves and each other.
What happens over time issomebody tries to crack the
sidewalk.
Metaphorically.
Now, what does that look likein a couple?
Well, when a couple tries tocrack the sidewalk, it will look
(17:08):
like something like, forexample, infidelity.
It'll look like an affair.
Sometimes It'll look likesomebody getting very depressed.
It'll look like somebody all ofa sudden, you know, without
warning, just saying I'm out ofhere, I'm leaving you, I'm done,
you know, sort of blindsidingthe other person.
All kinds of possibilities.
(17:29):
But often those things are thesymptoms, if you will, of lack
of intimacy.
So a lot of the work I do withcouples.
You know I orient people tothis because it seems like it's
really helpful and people keeptelling me it's helpful.
A lot of the work with couplesis helping them tolerate that
anxiety so that they can thenactually be honest with
(17:49):
themselves and each other, andthen they can get someplace.
Then they can actually start tohear each other.
Even though it's scary, theycan start to hear each other.
And when they do, that's whenyou know, that's when the magic
happens.
It's not really magic, butthat's when change can happen.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Well describe the death spiral for passion and how
that actually happens.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, it's kind of related to what I was just
talking about.
So what happens with couples?
You know, a couple getstogether, they fall in love,
they get together, maybe theyget married, maybe they have
kids, and having kids tends toreally up the ante on stability.
You know, stability is reallyimportant, especially when you
have kids, and so they perhapsstart to avoid rocking the boat.
(18:37):
And that's what I mean by thatdeath spiral.
Because what happens is if youavoid telling your partner how
you feel about something that'simportant to you, you know, I
mean, people can let stuff slideall the time and it's not a
problem.
If you can just laugh it off,it's no big deal.
But if it is a big deal but youdon't do anything about it,
over time that builds up andthat's what happens.
(18:59):
What happens is if people startavoiding saying how they feel,
that is what.
What follows from that is lackof intimacy.
They lose touch with each other.
They sometimes lose touch withthemselves, and a couple that
has lost touch with each otherdoesn't stay stable.
Uh, as I say, somebody is goingto try and metaphorically crack
(19:19):
the sidewalk, and so that'sthat's what I mean by the death
spiral for intimacy and it, youknow, and I say a lot of the
folks consulting me, I did forone of my books, I did sort of
an informal guess.
It really wasn't a count, but Idid an informal guess about what
percent of the couples that Isee in the first session are
dealing with infidelity or asimilar kind of betrayal.
(19:41):
And it's close to half.
Close to half dealing withinfidelity per se.
And often not always, but ofteninfidelity is all about that
sense of you know they've gonethrough that death spiral for
passion and it feels dead andsomebody you know, one or both
of them, are tempted by somebodyelse because they are so
missing that sense of feelingalive.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, let's talk about your seven word formula,
describe it and tell us how thatcame about go.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I was in a consultation group meeting with
a bunch of other I don't knowfive or six other therapists.
We get together to meet andtalk about our work and it just
gives each other feedback andhelps us out.
It helps us learn.
And I don't remember what wewere talking about that day.
We must've been talking aboutcouples therapy because we were
getting up to leave and one ofthe other therapists, who was a
friend of mine also, we werewalking out the door and he
(20:51):
turned to me and he said how doyou do couples therapy anyway,
which is kind of a sillyquestion to ask?
We've just had a whole meetingon it and we both had years of
training in it.
And like, how am I supposed toanswer that?
Walking out the door?
But I had actually been givingit some thought over the time
I'd been in training and thetime I'd been doing it in
private practice.
And if you really boil it alldown this is what I was thinking
(21:13):
initially If you boil it alldown, what am I really trying to
convey to the folks I work with?
I'm trying to convey basicallybe kind and don't panic.
And what I mean by be kind issimply don't.
I don't just mean be nice Imean, yes, we should all be nice
to each other but I mean berecognize that you are kin, you
(21:34):
are family, you are a team, youknow You're in the same tribe
with people.
Recognize that sense of kinship, because that's what keeps a
couple wanting to stay in acouple when they feel that sense
of kinship strongly.
And I, if you're in a panic,you can't be kind.
If you're in fight or flight orfreeze mode, it's very
(21:54):
difficult to feel that sense ofkinship if you're really feeling
at risk.
So a lot of the work of therapyI was realizing was about
helping people not panic.
It's like, well, we teach thesetechniques that maybe you can
manage to avoid panic.
So be kind and don't panic.
That's five words, not seven.
And I started sharing that withsome of the folks I worked with
(22:18):
and they would tell me wow,that's a really interesting idea
.
I get why, in order to be kind,you need to not panic.
Now what the problem is.
How am I supposed to not panic?
And I realized, yeah, that's aproblem.
How do I answer that?
I know I don't have a simpleanswer, for how do you not panic
other than just saying don'tpanic, which really doesn't help
much.
(22:39):
But I did notice something aboutthe couples that I worked with.
What I noticed was that thecouples that seem to be able to
not panic, even though they'redealing with really hard stuff I
mentioned, like infidelity oryou know, things of that sort
the couples that would come inand they were hurt and they were
(22:59):
, you know, in a lot of pain.
But the ones who could manageit had a particular mindset and
I decided what I would call themindset is faith, and I don't
necessarily mean religious faith, although it's not inconsistent
with religious faith.
But what I mean by faith isthey had this mindset that says,
even though this is painful,there's got to be something
(23:22):
important about it, there's gotto be something right about it.
Even though somebody didsomething that was morally wrong
and nobody was disagreeingabout that, still there was
something meaningful about it.
We better look at.
That's what I mean by faith.
The couples that came in andjust said, oh no, we just want
to go back to how it was, it wasfine.
They're not showing faith.
They're basically trying todeny reality.
(23:43):
The couples that could reallyaccept reality and accept that
there was something importantabout it, something right about
it.
Those are the ones that we'reable to not panic.
So I added two words to mylittle formula and it came up
with a seven word formula whichis be kind, don't panic and have
faith.
You have to count and to getseven words, be kind, don't
(24:04):
panic and have faith.
And that has been reallyhelpful in just sort of
organizing my thinking.
And you know I've I've workedwith a lot of couples where
they'll put it on therefrigerator.
You know, be kind, don't panicand have faith, because it
reminds them.
Especially the have faith partis the tricky part, it's a
practice.
It reminds them that if theycan recognize, they're both
(24:25):
valid people.
You know that's a statement offaith.
They're valid people.
If things are going wrong it'snot because they're crazy, evil
or stupid, it's because thingscan go wrong even for really
good people and they have to beable to hear what's happening
enough to be able to possiblywork through it.
So that's where the seven wordscame from.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Well, how do you use your own faith personally when
you're working with couples?
Speaker 2 (24:55):
You know, I think that's the main thing I offer
people.
I mean there's a lot of ways ofunderstanding that.
I suppose you know what's themain thing the therapist offers.
I mean one way of saying it isthe therapist is the calm
nervous system in the room.
You know that helps, but thatreally is about faith.
It's about I have faith in thepeople.
(25:15):
You know that helps, but thatreally is about faith.
It's about I have faith in thepeople that I work with.
You know, when I made that sortof statement in general, the
kind of blanket statement ingeneral, the folks I work with
are not crazy, evil or stupid.
They're just not.
You know, another element offaith that's part of my own
understanding is I knowsomething I know I do not know
better than they do how theyshould live their lives.
(25:37):
I am not there to tell them howthey should live their lives.
I am there to help them figureit out because my faith says
they're valid.
You know, we all have theexperiences we have and they're
all different and there's avalidity to it.
And again, I'm not, I'm notexcluding morality is important,
morality is very important.
But even when somebody has donesomething flat out immoral, you
(25:59):
know, like cheating on theirspouse or something that doesn't
make them an invalid person.
It means, you know, even goodpeople do bad stuff sometimes,
and if you can look at it withcuriosity, that's what lets
people then see gee, how did Ido that?
You know, how could I have donesomething that was so wrong?
(26:19):
And I know it's wrong, but yetI did what made that possible?
They can look at that with someunderstanding and that's what
will help them heal, that's whatwill help them regain their
sense of being a good person.
So my own faith that's reallywhere I'm coming from.
If I didn't really believe thatpeople are fundamentally valid
(26:41):
to be who they are, you know, ina religious sense I mean, I'm
Jewish and I'm very active in myJewish faith and I think it's
certainly fundamental to Judaismand I'm pretty sure it's
fundamental to Christianity aswell.
Of all the folks I've talkedwith, the vast majority of
people I work with, of course,are Christian.
Where I live, it's a smallJewish community here, and so I
(27:01):
know many of the people and so Icouldn't work with them
professionally, you know.
But it's certainly true in thefaiths.
I'm aware of that basic senseof recognizing that people,
we're all children of God andwe're you know we're valid in
that sense, even when we mess up.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Tell the listeners about your podcast, tell us
where we can hear it and what wecan expect when we listen to it
.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah Well, the podcast is called Couples
Therapy in Seven Words.
That's based on that seven wordmotto be kind, don't panic and
have faith and we started itback in 2020.
My first book came out February29th 2020.
Now, if you think aboutFebruary 29th, it's leap day,
right Of 2020.
(27:50):
What was happening at the endof February of 2020?
Well, just in time, I released abook, just in time for
everything to shut down becauseof the pandemic, so couldn't do
any sort of in-person, you know,book signing event or anything
like that.
So my wife and I decided well,let's do a Facebook live event.
(28:10):
So we did a Facebook live eventand I asked my wife to do it my
wife, judy Alexander becauseshe just has a wonderful voice
and a wonderful way about herand she's you know, she's really
, she's really good in that kindof situation and we have a lot
of fun doing it together.
So we did that Facebook liveand a lot of people said, oh,
you guys were great, you shoulddo a podcast.
And then, right around the sametime, I got interviewed on a
(28:31):
podcast much like yours, aboutmy book, and the person we did
the interview with she said, hey, you should do a podcast.
So I said, all right, why not,it was fun.
So we started it back in 2025.
I mean back in 2020.
It's now been, as of the time ofthis recording, almost five
years, and what you'll hear, ifyou hear it, is oh, over half of
(28:53):
our we've had 200 and I don'tknow 210 or something like that,
some number like that episodeso far, and well over half of
them we have a guest again, muchas you do, and we interview all
kinds of fascinating people,anything to do with
relationships we're apt to talkabout.
So we've interviewed people allover the map, literally all
over the map, because we'veinterviewed people all over the
map, literally all over the map,because we've interviewed
(29:14):
people from as far away asAustralia and Europe and all
over the world.
And if it's something aboutrelationships, we probably talk
about it, and that's what we'vebeen doing.
And so we've also recentlystarted to do what I call some
short takes, where I just do,for example, the little talk I
(29:35):
gave a little while ago aboutstability and intimacy.
I do a short take on stabilityand intimacy.
So if people want to hear ourpodcast, it's on all the podcast
platforms.
If you just look for CouplesTherapy in 7 Words.
Or you can go to our podcastwebsite, which is CTin7,.
That's the number 7, ctn7.
That's for couples therapy inseven ctn7.com.
(29:57):
That'll get you there.
And you can also go to mywebsite, which is
brucechalmercom.
So as long as you spell my nameright, you'll get it
brucechalmercom, where there'sinformation about my practice,
about my books, and you can geta link to the podcast through
that and also I have anewsletter that I do on
(30:19):
Substacks.
All that stuff's availablethrough BruceChalmercom.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're
working on that listeners needto be aware of you know I don't
have a book in progress rightnow.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I've been working mostly on promoting my most
recent book, which is the one Imentioned, betrayal and
Forgiveness.
We're still doing.
We're doing some reallyinteresting podcasts coming up,
but I don't like to, I don'tlike to give promissory notes
about them until they actuallyhappen.
But we have some reallyfascinating people lined up to
interview.
I also do a lot of music.
(30:55):
I have on my sub stack Iactually put a tab there about
some of the music projects I'vebeen doing.
I'm a composer and I sing in achoral group and I also lead the
choir at our synagogue.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
So I'm involved heavily in music and I do a lot
of that as well our synagogue,so I'm involved heavily in music
and I do a lot of that as well.
Okay, you answered my nextquestion.
Your website, brucechalmercom.
So close us out with some finalthoughts.
Maybe, if that was something Iforgot to talk about, that you
would like to touch on, or anyfinal thoughts you?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
have for the listeners.
I think you know, if I were tosummarize it, that seven words
kind of just summarizes it.
Obviously you have to thinkabout those three principles Be
kind, don't panic and have faith.
But I find that's a reallyuseful summary for folks just as
a way of getting started, andso I invite people to consider
(31:48):
that.
And you know it tends to givepeople a little bit of
perspective on things that Ithink is really useful when
they're dealing with seriousproblems.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen,brucecharmacom, please be sure
to check out his website, hisbooks and his podcast.
Follow rate review.
Share this episode to as manycouples or as many people as you
think this will help aspossible.
Follow us on your favoritepodcast app.
Visit wwwcurveball337.com formore information on the Living
(32:24):
the Dream with Curveball podcast.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show and, dr
Chalmer, thank you for all thatyou do and thank you for joining
me.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Well, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
For more information on the Living the Dream with
Curveball podcast, visitwwwcurveball337.com.
Until next time, keep livingthe dream.
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