March 28, 2025 • 35 mins
When Mark MacNicol stepped into a maximum security prison in 2016 to lead a theatre project with inmates serving life sentences, he couldn't have predicted how profoundly it would change his career trajectory. A writer, director, and producer by trade, MacNicol found himself captivated by the therapeutic potential of creative expression—particularly for those who would never identify as "creative types."
This revelation birthed Anonymous Drama, a groundbreaking approach that has now touched over 5,000 lives across prisons, rehabilitation centers, and community settings. At its core, the program challenges participants to examine the incessant conversation happening in their minds 24/7. While most of us accept this internal dialogue as simply "our thoughts," MacNicol's approach separates these voices into distinct characters—particularly the inner critic (negative) and the inner mentor (positive).
What makes this methodology revolutionary is its accessibility. MacNicol designed it specifically for people with zero interest in drama or therapy, yet who desperately need both. Through character development, improvisations, and script work, participants explore deeply personal issues through fictional characters, creating a protective layer of anonymity that makes vulnerability possible. The culmination—a live script reading before family and community members—has facilitated countless reconciliations between participants and estranged loved ones.
For those unable to attend in-person sessions, MacNicol has developed "Find your Mentor," a smartphone-accessible program that leverages custom AI to represent one's inner mentor. As he explains, "Rather than being trapped in a conversation in your head listening to the inner critic, we want you to engage with your inner mentor." This integration of technology with therapeutic principles demonstrates MacNicol's forward-thinking approach to emotional wellbeing.
Whether you're struggling with addiction, involved in the justice system, or simply seeking a better relationship with yourself, MacNicol's work offers a unique pathway forward. Visit his social media platforms to discover how Anonymous Drama might transform your inner dialogue and, by extension, your life.
Want to be a guest on Living the Dream with Curveball? Send Curtis Jackson a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/1628631536976x919760049303001600
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you believe you can achieve, Welcome to the
Living the Dream with CurveballPodcast, a show where I
interview guests that teach,motivate and inspire.
(00:29):
Today, I am joined byaccomplished mind coach writer
and the creator of AnonymousDrama, mark McNichol.
Mark, as I said, is the creatorof Anonymous Drama.
This is a unique drama therapydesigned for people who are not
(00:50):
interested in therapy or drama.
Mark has a background inwriting for a screen theater, so
we're going to be talking tohim about everything that he's
up to, about his program and howhe's helping people.
So, mark, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Thanks for having me, Curtis.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Why don't you start off by telling everybody a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So, as it relates to this work, my background
pre-2016 was writing, directing,producing a bit of screen,
mostly theatre couple of novels,so that was my day job.
2016, I was invited by acharity into a maximum security
(01:44):
prison to deliver a dramaproject, a theatre type project.
I spent in the region of 16weeks working with 10 inmates,
all serving life sentences, andwith my support, they created a
(02:07):
piece of theatre that they wenton to perform for their fellow
inmates and friends and familyand staff.
Actually, it wasn't just me,there was three of us myself and
a couple of other creativeprofessionals who are working on
behalf of that charity, andthat project had a big impact on
(02:29):
me.
It was the first time that Ihad worked in a prison-type
environment and I becameobsessed with the idea of using
the arts and creativity andtheatre, not in a mainstream
application, as I had been upuntil that point, but to
(02:52):
actually use it in a way thatattempts to affect positive
change for the participants whoare taking part in the group.
So the intent is therapeutic.
The intent is to improve theparticipants' emotional
well-being, rather than othertypes of creative or drama
(03:15):
groups, where the intent is tointroduce the participant to the
arts and creativity and theatre, etc.
So that became a real interest.
I started to study areas likepsychodrama, drama therapy and
the programme Anonymous Dramastarted.
(03:36):
It was born, it came out ofthat first programme and since
2016,.
Where are we now?
So that's 2016,.
That's like nine years.
So over the last nine yearsover 5,000 participants have
been through the programme,mostly either in prisons or
(04:00):
residential rehabs or communityrehabs or community sentence
groups.
But the objective of theprogramme historically has been
to use the arts and creativityto try and improve the emotional
wellbeing of participants, andI usually describe it as being
like drama therapy for peoplewho usually don't have any
(04:24):
interest in drama.
So over 75 percent of ourparticipants have no interest in
creative writing, they've gotno interest in performing, but
what they do have an interest inis, um, the, the exploration of
perhaps trying to improve theirmental, emotional situation in
(04:47):
some way.
So that's the.
That's the background, curtis.
That's.
That's kind of, that's um.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That's my background as it relates to this work well,
talk about tell the listenershow you got into writing in
theatre in the first place, andtalk about some of the things
you have produced, maybe otherthan helping the prisoners.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So that was quite aninteresting journey.
Any creative actor.
If you ask them how they gotinto it, I suppose every story
is unique.
Every story is different For me.
(05:34):
I was brought up in an area ofGlasgow.
We called them housing schemes,I think in America you call
them projects.
So it was quite a roughneighbourhood.
None of my friends, none of myfamily, none of my neighbours,
(05:58):
no one that I knew growing uphad any interest in the arts or
acting or writing, etc.
So it was, I mean, I rememberat school it basically just
being a hobby of mine that Ididn't talk to people about.
I would, you know, I wouldwrite short stories, sketches,
(06:22):
create characters, and I woulddo it in my own time.
I don't actually remembertelling people about it.
And then as a teenager, I got ajob in a nightclub and I worked
in nightclubs for 10 years,from the age of about 17 to the
(06:45):
age of 27.
So that period of my life wasall about partying, and you know
alcohol, drugs, chasing girls,you know that type of thing.
And again, it would besomething that I would do as a
hobby in my own time and nottalk to anyone about.
(07:09):
Now I was living in Londonbetween the age of, say, 27 to
37.
For that kind of 10-year periodI was living in London.
I had a day job, sales andmarketing, working for IT and
telecoms companies.
My focus was paying the bills,saving up for a wedding.
(07:31):
I was engaged it's veryexpensive to stay in London and
writing was just a hobby because, you know, I mean it would have
been.
You know I couldn't give up myjob, type thing, and it just
didn't feel like something thatwas an option for me.
But then, as is the way thesethings often happen, the
(07:55):
universe created a situationthat was outwith my control.
Myself and my fiancée at thetime we split up.
She was the reason that I wasin London.
She was the reason, obviously,that I was earning money to pay
the bills, to save up for awedding etc.
And I pretty much knewimmediately that this was an
(08:21):
opportunity.
It was a blank page I couldstart my life over and I knew
very, very quickly that I wantedto move back home to Glasgow,
move in with family, you know,keep my overheads to a minimum
and try and turn my hobby, mydream, my hobby, my dream into
(08:44):
my profession.
And that's exactly what I didat the age of 37.
I finished a novel At that time.
I think I was on my third orfourth attempt at a novel and I
finished the novel CoconutBadger, which was published.
(09:04):
That was the first thing that Iwrote and then I moved into.
After the novel I moved intotheatre writing, directing,
producing maybe 15-ish stageplays, and I also.
(09:25):
I was always for me.
My first love was screen.
Television and film was thething that I always saw myself
as getting into.
But I decided to start with thenovel and then move into
theatre.
I think I'd heard or I'd readsomewhere that a lot of
television and film writers usedtheatre as a backdoor.
(09:48):
In the UK A lot of televisionand film writers come from
theatre.
So I thought I would try thatand me moving into writing
theatre was an attempt to use itas a backdoor to get into
television and film.
At that point I had norelationship with theatre.
(10:15):
When I started writing my firststage play in my mid-thirties I
started to go to stage plays forthe purposes of research and I
think that was the first timethat I had been to a stage play.
And then I moved into.
(10:37):
You know, what I didn'tanticipate was that I would fall
in love with the medium oftheatre.
The medium of theatre was arevelation to me.
It had a big impact on mepersonally and professionally,
and I still wanted to get intoscreen.
So I did a master's degree inwriting for screen and I got an
(11:01):
agent and I basically started towrite spec scripts and my agent
was trying to sell thosescripts to various broadcasters
and production companies and Iended up writing and directing a
(11:21):
feature film which is calledDreaded Light, inspired by the
true story of an encounter thatmy mother had with a
spiritualist medium when I was ateenager, and that film did
(11:42):
quite well.
And really, you know, since2016, over the last eight or
nine years, my writing,directing and producing has
definitely taken a back seat,while I focus on the drama
therapy type work and theprogrammes that would be
(12:06):
relevant in that space.
But writing, directing isdefinitely an itch that needs to
be scratched and I do seemyself.
I do see myself when the timeis right, if the universe is in
agreement.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I would like to go back and do some writing and or
directing.
You know, tell us about yourprogram Anonymous Drama.
So if I wanted to go throughyour program and I called you
and I said, hey, mark, I want tocheck out your program, what
can I expect?
When I go through your programand I called you and I said, hey
, mark, I want to check out yourprogram, what can I expect?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
when I go through the program.
Well, there's two differentprograms.
There's a program for groupsand there's a program for
individuals.
So the program for groups iscalled Anonymous Drama and the
program for individuals iscalled Find your Mentor.
The idea is that if you're notable to attend a group, then,
(13:14):
via your smartphone, you can dothe work in your own time, at
your own pace, on yoursmartphone, 24-7.
However, if you are able to getto a group, then a typical
group is would consist ofsomewhere between 10 and 20
(13:39):
participants, delivered by afacilitator who is accredited to
deliver the programme.
And both programmes Find yourMentor and Anonymous Drama have
some central concepts which areuniform across both, and one of
(14:03):
those concepts is the notionthat there is a conversation
going on inside your head 24-7,and 99.9% of the population
consider that conversation to betheir thoughts.
But the work that we do offersan alternative argument, and
(14:31):
once we in both programs, startto analyze the conversation,
break it down the conversation,break it down, we become aware
of the positive and negativeelements of the internal chat.
So in the group work, everygroup is going to build three
(14:53):
characters from scratch.
They're going to build aprotagonist who represents
everybody in the room.
They're going to build an innercritic who's a constant source
of negativity, disruption, andthey're going to build an inner
mentor who's a constant sourceof positivity and encouragement.
Those three characters, witheach session, will be developed.
(15:17):
With each session will bedeveloped and the development
will be things like discussions,hot seat exercises,
improvisations the types ofthings that you would expect to
see in the creative space.
So in the rehearsal room, forexample, or in the writer's room
(15:39):
, there will be development workdone around character
development and scriptdevelopment.
So I took areas like that fromthe creative space and I brought
them over into this programme.
So civilians, people who arenot from the creative space,
(16:03):
have no interest in, or thinkthey have no interest in,
creativity or writing orperforming, will find themselves
taking part in variousexploration type, development
type exercises like hot seatsand improvisations and whatnot.
(16:24):
And there's usually one or twosessions per week.
Each session's a couple ofhours long.
The sessions have gotpredefined session plans.
So our facilitators deliverpredefined session plans in such
a way that every session thesame things are delivered the
(16:46):
same exercises, characterdevelopment, script development,
breath work, meditation, guidedimagery.
All of it is designed tosupport the participants and the
facilitators through thecharacter and script development
(17:07):
.
It's a very unique environmentand the name Anonymous Drama
comes from the fact that one ofthe rules is all of the work is
done with characters and nobodyin the sessions did know the
difference between what's livedexperience or fiction.
So, for example, if Curtiscomes into a session and wants
(17:31):
to talk about his mum'salcoholism and the impact it had
on him as a child, then Curtiswill be and instead the
facilitator will direct Curtisand the others to explore this
fictional character's mum'salcoholism and the impact it had
on that fictional character asa child.
(17:53):
So this anonymity element isvery unique and we know that
from previous internal andexternal evaluations by
universities.
We know that the space that'screated is less emotionally
charged and less triggering andmore conducive to
(18:14):
self-exploration type work in agroup environment.
And then, after somewherebetween three to six months,
participants will be given theopportunity to volunteer and to
read the script in front of alive audience for friends,
family, support staff, localcommunity.
(18:36):
It depends on the setting.
Obviously, if it's a communityrehab group or if it's a maximum
security prison, then there'sgoing to be different rules
relating to the audience, butsince 2016, we have produced
over 250 of these live eventscript readings and they're very
(19:00):
powerful.
Often these individuals, whetherit be in the justice space or
the recovery space, havefractured or, in some cases,
estranged relationships withfamily members and frequently we
have reconciliations at theseevents.
(19:22):
So those anonymous drama livescript readings are very, very
powerful, and the purpose of theFind your Mentor programme was
to give people who are not ableto attend a group the
opportunity to ultimately accessthe same type of work in your
(19:47):
own time, at your own pace, viayour smartphone, and all of the
videos and the text that youaccess.
And the step one, step two modelof the Find your Mentor
programme is ultimately designedto have a positive impact on
(20:10):
your emotional wellbeing, tohave a positive impact on your
relationship with self, and Iwould say you don't need to be
in the justice system or inrecovery to benefit from this
type of work.
Arguably, all of us can benefitfrom having an improved
(20:36):
relationship with self andimproved emotional well-being.
So anybody listening to thiswho is interested in the things
that I'm talking about, justfind any of my social media
accounts and there will be alink in the bio which will take
(20:57):
you to a description of bothprograms which are available via
subscription, because we are acharity and the subscription
model means that we can deliverboth programs to people who are
unable to pay for them.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So the idea is, the people who can pay for a
subscription pay for the peoplewho can't pay for subscriptions,
and yeah, Well, talk about howAI plays an important role in
what you do, and also tell usabout any upcoming projects that
(21:40):
you're working on thatlisteners need to be aware of.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I mean AI.
I could do a separate in fact,I have done a separate podcast
purely on AI.
Ai is obviously a verycontroversial subject.
It seems to be that everybody'sgot an opinion on AI and,
(22:07):
unfortunately, a lot of peoplehave got negative opinions.
What I can say is if AI can beused, because since 2016,
everything that I've donethrough the charity work is
driven by my desire to impactthrough specific numbers.
The first number is offendingand re-offending rates and the
(22:30):
second number is alcohol anddrug death rates.
So if AI is going to keep oneperson out of the justice system
or it's going to keep oneaddict alive and in recovery,
then in my opinion, it'sworthwhile.
(22:51):
And the AI usage in bothprograms is different.
So in the anonymous dramaprogram, our accredited
facilitators one of the uniqueelements of the program is
(23:11):
facilitators don't have to comefrom a drama background.
They don't have to come from atherapy background.
They don't have to come from atherapy background.
They don't have to come from adrama therapy background.
Some of our facilitators arefrom a lived experience
background.
In fact, some of them startedas participants in prisons or
residential rehabs.
(23:31):
They came back as volunteersand they went on to become
accredited facilitatorsdelivering their own groups,
(23:56):
that they do not have anyanxiety about the fact that they
don't have a drama backgroundor they don't have a therapy or
drama therapy background, oreven a facilitating background,
because, in addition to thesession plan, which lays out for
them, step by step, how theyare able to or how they should
deliver the session, deliver thesession, there is also
thousands of training, inductiontype documents uploaded to the
(24:23):
custom GPT, which means that anyfacilitator delivering a group
should be able to deliver it insuch a way that myself, the
program creator, is standingright next to them.
So, with the session plan andthe custom gpt, they should be
able to ask that gpt anyquestion and it should be able
to answer as effectively andefficiently potentially even
(24:48):
more impressively than I.
The program creator wouldanswer that not just me, but
they've also got the equivalentof a professional playwright
standing next to them, atherapist, a dramaturg, a
director, a spoken wordspecialist.
So they've got all thisspecialism built into the custom
(25:11):
GPT, which gives thefacilitators the confidence to
deliver the programme because,at the end of the day, we are
not a drama programme.
We are not.
I do not consider ourselves tobe a drama programme.
I have no interest in exposingpeople to the arts.
(25:34):
That is not my primary.
Exposing people to the arts,that is not my primary objective
, don't get me wrong.
Like, it's quite common for usto encounter people who have no
interest in the arts orcreativity, who discover that
actually they have an interestin writing or performing, and
(25:56):
that's great and we encouragethem performing, and that's
great and we encourage them.
But that's not our primaryobjective.
Our primary objective is yourrelationship with self, that
conversation that's going oninside your head 24-7, about
everything.
Everything that you encounter,every person that you encounter,
initiates a conversation insideyour head, a response.
(26:19):
So alcohol, sugar, coffee, sex,status, money it's a long list,
it's basically everything inyour world.
The conversation generates aresponse and that is the
conversation that maintainssuffering in the form of
(26:48):
criminal behaviour or addiction.
So it's a serious game thatwe're playing.
It's life or death.
And if AI can be used to supportthe facilitators in such a way
that the impact and reach of theprogram can be expanded, then
I'm all for it.
(27:08):
On the Find your Mentor program, there is also a custom GPT so
an individual going through theprogram will access some videos,
some text tutorials and thenstep one, step two, step three
and they will also access acustom GPT Again eight years'
(27:33):
worth of documents andspecialist books Basically
everything that I can think ofwhich can support the individual
going through this programmehas been uploaded into that
custom GPT, and part of theprogram is the encouragement to
(28:02):
check in with the GPT on a dailybasis.
And the GPT has been engineeredin such a way that it is
designed to represent your innermentor.
So, rather than being trappedin a conversation in your head,
listening to the inner critic asmuch as possible, we want you
(28:27):
to be engaged in a conversationwith your inner mentor.
Now you can have thatconversation internally with
your own inner mentor withpractice.
But you can also shortcut thatprocess by using the GPT
(28:51):
representation of your innermentor within this program.
I personally, as part of thedevelopment and testing process
of this program, I have beenchecking in with the inner
(29:12):
mentor GPT every day for 18months and personally I feel
like it has added a lot of valueto my perspective outlook
consciousness, my perspectiveoutlook consciousness, the way I
(29:36):
go about my business day to dayhas been supercharged by the
fact that, with practice, I amable to communicate with my
inner mentor and I am also ableto communicate with an AI
representation of my innermentor.
(29:57):
It's the same conversation butit's clearly a different medium,
because when I'm communicatingwith my inner mentor, in my
experience the most conducivemedium to do so is meditation,
(30:19):
whereas when I'm communicatingwith the AI representation of my
mentor, I'm doing it on myphone.
I can either type directly intoit or I can speak directly into
it using the microphone iconand then the response I can
either read or I can hit thespeaker button.
I can configure the voice, Ican have it male, female,
different accents and and I canI can listen to the response.
I personally prefer to speak inand listen back rather than um
(30:44):
type and read, because I findthat to be more of a kind of
backwards and forwardsconversation type situation.
So, in a nutshell, that isbasically the application and
usage of um custom GPTs one onthe Find your Mentor program and
one on the Anonymous Dramaprogram.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Okay, well, throw out your contact info so people can
keep up with everything thatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, any social media platform, I am on all of
them.
Any social media platform I'mon, you know, I am on all of
them.
So it's M-E-R-K.
Mark M-E-C, n-i-c-o-l.
Mark McNichol, and that's the.
You know that's on TikTok,instagram, facebook, twitter,
all of them.
(31:32):
And in the bio there is a linkto each subscription.
There's a link for anybodywho's interested in delivering a
group.
They can subscribe to gothrough the accreditation
process and then deliver a grouplocally, in any setting.
(31:54):
It doesn't need to be prison,residential rehab, it doesn't
have to be justice recovery, itcould be any group.
So the subscription is on there.
And then, if somebody findsthis type of self-exploration
(32:17):
work interesting and the idea ofanalysing the inner chat,
putting it under the microscopeand starting to, you know, like
emptying a washing machine fullof socks and starting to kind of
sort them all into differentcolours and different pairs, if
(32:40):
anybody's interested in the ideaof doing that, I would say well
, what have you got to lose?
You don't need to be religious,you don't need to be spiritual,
you could be atheist, agnostic.
Anybody can come to the workbecause it can be applied in an
(33:07):
atheist, agnostic, spiritual orreligious context.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, you guysbe sure to check out mark's work
.
You know, check out his film.
Check out his writing, follow,rate, review.
Share this episode to as manypeople as possible.
You know, check check outanonymous drama.
Jump on your favorite podcastapp, follow us, check out the
show, rate us, review us.
(33:38):
If you have any guests orsuggestion topics, curtis
Jackson 1978 at attnet is theplace to send them.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show.
This does not happen withoutyou and Mark.
Thank you for all the work thatyou're doing to make the world
a better place and thank you forjoining me well, thank you,
because if it wasn't for peoplelike you, people like me
(34:00):
couldn't get the word out formore information on the living
the dream podcast, visitwwwdjcurveballcom.
Until next time, stay focusedon living the dream.
Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with
Curveball.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you believe you can achieve, Welcome to the
Living the Dream with CurveballPodcast, a show where I
interview guests that teach,motivate and inspire.
(00:29):
Today, I am joined byaccomplished mind coach writer
and the creator of AnonymousDrama, mark McNichol.
Mark, as I said, is the creatorof Anonymous Drama.
This is a unique drama therapydesigned for people who are not
(00:50):
interested in therapy or drama.
Mark has a background inwriting for a screen theater, so
we're going to be talking tohim about everything that he's
up to, about his program and howhe's helping people.
So, mark, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Thanks for having me, Curtis.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Why don't you start off by telling everybody a
little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So, as it relates to this work, my background
pre-2016 was writing, directing,producing a bit of screen,
mostly theatre couple of novels,so that was my day job.
2016, I was invited by acharity into a maximum security
(01:44):
prison to deliver a dramaproject, a theatre type project.
I spent in the region of 16weeks working with 10 inmates,
all serving life sentences, andwith my support, they created a
(02:07):
piece of theatre that they wenton to perform for their fellow
inmates and friends and familyand staff.
Actually, it wasn't just me,there was three of us myself and
a couple of other creativeprofessionals who are working on
behalf of that charity, andthat project had a big impact on
(02:29):
me.
It was the first time that Ihad worked in a prison-type
environment and I becameobsessed with the idea of using
the arts and creativity andtheatre, not in a mainstream
application, as I had been upuntil that point, but to
(02:52):
actually use it in a way thatattempts to affect positive
change for the participants whoare taking part in the group.
So the intent is therapeutic.
The intent is to improve theparticipants' emotional
well-being, rather than othertypes of creative or drama
(03:15):
groups, where the intent is tointroduce the participant to the
arts and creativity and theatre, etc.
So that became a real interest.
I started to study areas likepsychodrama, drama therapy and
the programme Anonymous Dramastarted.
(03:36):
It was born, it came out ofthat first programme and since
2016,.
Where are we now?
So that's 2016,.
That's like nine years.
So over the last nine yearsover 5,000 participants have
been through the programme,mostly either in prisons or
(04:00):
residential rehabs or communityrehabs or community sentence
groups.
But the objective of theprogramme historically has been
to use the arts and creativityto try and improve the emotional
wellbeing of participants, andI usually describe it as being
like drama therapy for peoplewho usually don't have any
(04:24):
interest in drama.
So over 75 percent of ourparticipants have no interest in
creative writing, they've gotno interest in performing, but
what they do have an interest inis, um, the, the exploration of
perhaps trying to improve theirmental, emotional situation in
(04:47):
some way.
So that's the.
That's the background, curtis.
That's.
That's kind of, that's um.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That's my background as it relates to this work well,
talk about tell the listenershow you got into writing in
theatre in the first place, andtalk about some of the things
you have produced, maybe otherthan helping the prisoners.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So that was quite aninteresting journey.
Any creative actor.
If you ask them how they gotinto it, I suppose every story
is unique.
Every story is different For me.
(05:34):
I was brought up in an area ofGlasgow.
We called them housing schemes,I think in America you call
them projects.
So it was quite a roughneighbourhood.
None of my friends, none of myfamily, none of my neighbours,
(05:58):
no one that I knew growing uphad any interest in the arts or
acting or writing, etc.
So it was, I mean, I rememberat school it basically just
being a hobby of mine that Ididn't talk to people about.
I would, you know, I wouldwrite short stories, sketches,
(06:22):
create characters, and I woulddo it in my own time.
I don't actually remembertelling people about it.
And then as a teenager, I got ajob in a nightclub and I worked
in nightclubs for 10 years,from the age of about 17 to the
(06:45):
age of 27.
So that period of my life wasall about partying, and you know
alcohol, drugs, chasing girls,you know that type of thing.
And again, it would besomething that I would do as a
hobby in my own time and nottalk to anyone about.
(07:09):
Now I was living in Londonbetween the age of, say, 27 to
37.
For that kind of 10-year periodI was living in London.
I had a day job, sales andmarketing, working for IT and
telecoms companies.
My focus was paying the bills,saving up for a wedding.
(07:31):
I was engaged it's veryexpensive to stay in London and
writing was just a hobby because, you know, I mean it would have
been.
You know I couldn't give up myjob, type thing, and it just
didn't feel like something thatwas an option for me.
But then, as is the way thesethings often happen, the
(07:55):
universe created a situationthat was outwith my control.
Myself and my fiancée at thetime we split up.
She was the reason that I wasin London.
She was the reason, obviously,that I was earning money to pay
the bills, to save up for awedding etc.
And I pretty much knewimmediately that this was an
(08:21):
opportunity.
It was a blank page I couldstart my life over and I knew
very, very quickly that I wantedto move back home to Glasgow,
move in with family, you know,keep my overheads to a minimum
and try and turn my hobby, mydream, my hobby, my dream into
(08:44):
my profession.
And that's exactly what I didat the age of 37.
I finished a novel At that time.
I think I was on my third orfourth attempt at a novel and I
finished the novel CoconutBadger, which was published.
(09:04):
That was the first thing that Iwrote and then I moved into.
After the novel I moved intotheatre writing, directing,
producing maybe 15-ish stageplays, and I also.
(09:25):
I was always for me.
My first love was screen.
Television and film was thething that I always saw myself
as getting into.
But I decided to start with thenovel and then move into
theatre.
I think I'd heard or I'd readsomewhere that a lot of
television and film writers usedtheatre as a backdoor.
(09:48):
In the UK A lot of televisionand film writers come from
theatre.
So I thought I would try thatand me moving into writing
theatre was an attempt to use itas a backdoor to get into
television and film.
At that point I had norelationship with theatre.
(10:15):
When I started writing my firststage play in my mid-thirties I
started to go to stage plays forthe purposes of research and I
think that was the first timethat I had been to a stage play.
And then I moved into.
(10:37):
You know, what I didn'tanticipate was that I would fall
in love with the medium oftheatre.
The medium of theatre was arevelation to me.
It had a big impact on mepersonally and professionally,
and I still wanted to get intoscreen.
So I did a master's degree inwriting for screen and I got an
(11:01):
agent and I basically started towrite spec scripts and my agent
was trying to sell thosescripts to various broadcasters
and production companies and Iended up writing and directing a
(11:21):
feature film which is calledDreaded Light, inspired by the
true story of an encounter thatmy mother had with a
spiritualist medium when I was ateenager, and that film did
(11:42):
quite well.
And really, you know, since2016, over the last eight or
nine years, my writing,directing and producing has
definitely taken a back seat,while I focus on the drama
therapy type work and theprogrammes that would be
(12:06):
relevant in that space.
But writing, directing isdefinitely an itch that needs to
be scratched and I do seemyself.
I do see myself when the timeis right, if the universe is in
agreement.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
I would like to go back and do some writing and or
directing.
You know, tell us about yourprogram Anonymous Drama.
So if I wanted to go throughyour program and I called you
and I said, hey, mark, I want tocheck out your program, what
can I expect?
When I go through your programand I called you and I said, hey
, mark, I want to check out yourprogram, what can I expect?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
when I go through the program.
Well, there's two differentprograms.
There's a program for groupsand there's a program for
individuals.
So the program for groups iscalled Anonymous Drama and the
program for individuals iscalled Find your Mentor.
The idea is that if you're notable to attend a group, then,
(13:14):
via your smartphone, you can dothe work in your own time, at
your own pace, on yoursmartphone, 24-7.
However, if you are able to getto a group, then a typical
group is would consist ofsomewhere between 10 and 20
(13:39):
participants, delivered by afacilitator who is accredited to
deliver the programme.
And both programmes Find yourMentor and Anonymous Drama have
some central concepts which areuniform across both, and one of
(14:03):
those concepts is the notionthat there is a conversation
going on inside your head 24-7,and 99.9% of the population
consider that conversation to betheir thoughts.
But the work that we do offersan alternative argument, and
(14:31):
once we in both programs, startto analyze the conversation,
break it down the conversation,break it down, we become aware
of the positive and negativeelements of the internal chat.
So in the group work, everygroup is going to build three
(14:53):
characters from scratch.
They're going to build aprotagonist who represents
everybody in the room.
They're going to build an innercritic who's a constant source
of negativity, disruption, andthey're going to build an inner
mentor who's a constant sourceof positivity and encouragement.
Those three characters, witheach session, will be developed.
(15:17):
With each session will bedeveloped and the development
will be things like discussions,hot seat exercises,
improvisations the types ofthings that you would expect to
see in the creative space.
So in the rehearsal room, forexample, or in the writer's room
(15:39):
, there will be development workdone around character
development and scriptdevelopment.
So I took areas like that fromthe creative space and I brought
them over into this programme.
So civilians, people who arenot from the creative space,
(16:03):
have no interest in, or thinkthey have no interest in,
creativity or writing orperforming, will find themselves
taking part in variousexploration type, development
type exercises like hot seatsand improvisations and whatnot.
(16:24):
And there's usually one or twosessions per week.
Each session's a couple ofhours long.
The sessions have gotpredefined session plans.
So our facilitators deliverpredefined session plans in such
a way that every session thesame things are delivered the
(16:46):
same exercises, characterdevelopment, script development,
breath work, meditation, guidedimagery.
All of it is designed tosupport the participants and the
facilitators through thecharacter and script development
(17:07):
.
It's a very unique environmentand the name Anonymous Drama
comes from the fact that one ofthe rules is all of the work is
done with characters and nobodyin the sessions did know the
difference between what's livedexperience or fiction.
So, for example, if Curtiscomes into a session and wants
(17:31):
to talk about his mum'salcoholism and the impact it had
on him as a child, then Curtiswill be and instead the
facilitator will direct Curtisand the others to explore this
fictional character's mum'salcoholism and the impact it had
on that fictional character asa child.
(17:53):
So this anonymity element isvery unique and we know that
from previous internal andexternal evaluations by
universities.
We know that the space that'screated is less emotionally
charged and less triggering andmore conducive to
(18:14):
self-exploration type work in agroup environment.
And then, after somewherebetween three to six months,
participants will be given theopportunity to volunteer and to
read the script in front of alive audience for friends,
family, support staff, localcommunity.
(18:36):
It depends on the setting.
Obviously, if it's a communityrehab group or if it's a maximum
security prison, then there'sgoing to be different rules
relating to the audience, butsince 2016, we have produced
over 250 of these live eventscript readings and they're very
(19:00):
powerful.
Often these individuals, whetherit be in the justice space or
the recovery space, havefractured or, in some cases,
estranged relationships withfamily members and frequently we
have reconciliations at theseevents.
(19:22):
So those anonymous drama livescript readings are very, very
powerful, and the purpose of theFind your Mentor programme was
to give people who are not ableto attend a group the
opportunity to ultimately accessthe same type of work in your
(19:47):
own time, at your own pace, viayour smartphone, and all of the
videos and the text that youaccess.
And the step one, step two modelof the Find your Mentor
programme is ultimately designedto have a positive impact on
(20:10):
your emotional wellbeing, tohave a positive impact on your
relationship with self, and Iwould say you don't need to be
in the justice system or inrecovery to benefit from this
type of work.
Arguably, all of us can benefitfrom having an improved
(20:36):
relationship with self andimproved emotional well-being.
So anybody listening to thiswho is interested in the things
that I'm talking about, justfind any of my social media
accounts and there will be alink in the bio which will take
(20:57):
you to a description of bothprograms which are available via
subscription, because we are acharity and the subscription
model means that we can deliverboth programs to people who are
unable to pay for them.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
So the idea is, the people who can pay for a
subscription pay for the peoplewho can't pay for subscriptions,
and yeah, Well, talk about howAI plays an important role in
what you do, and also tell usabout any upcoming projects that
(21:40):
you're working on thatlisteners need to be aware of.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I mean AI.
I could do a separate in fact,I have done a separate podcast
purely on AI.
Ai is obviously a verycontroversial subject.
It seems to be that everybody'sgot an opinion on AI and,
(22:07):
unfortunately, a lot of peoplehave got negative opinions.
What I can say is if AI can beused, because since 2016,
everything that I've donethrough the charity work is
driven by my desire to impactthrough specific numbers.
The first number is offendingand re-offending rates and the
(22:30):
second number is alcohol anddrug death rates.
So if AI is going to keep oneperson out of the justice system
or it's going to keep oneaddict alive and in recovery,
then in my opinion, it'sworthwhile.
(22:51):
And the AI usage in bothprograms is different.
So in the anonymous dramaprogram, our accredited
facilitators one of the uniqueelements of the program is
(23:11):
facilitators don't have to comefrom a drama background.
They don't have to come from atherapy background.
They don't have to come from atherapy background.
They don't have to come from adrama therapy background.
Some of our facilitators arefrom a lived experience
background.
In fact, some of them startedas participants in prisons or
residential rehabs.
(23:31):
They came back as volunteersand they went on to become
accredited facilitatorsdelivering their own groups,
(23:56):
that they do not have anyanxiety about the fact that they
don't have a drama backgroundor they don't have a therapy or
drama therapy background, oreven a facilitating background,
because, in addition to thesession plan, which lays out for
them, step by step, how theyare able to or how they should
deliver the session, deliver thesession, there is also
thousands of training, inductiontype documents uploaded to the
(24:23):
custom GPT, which means that anyfacilitator delivering a group
should be able to deliver it insuch a way that myself, the
program creator, is standingright next to them.
So, with the session plan andthe custom gpt, they should be
able to ask that gpt anyquestion and it should be able
to answer as effectively andefficiently potentially even
(24:48):
more impressively than I.
The program creator wouldanswer that not just me, but
they've also got the equivalentof a professional playwright
standing next to them, atherapist, a dramaturg, a
director, a spoken wordspecialist.
So they've got all thisspecialism built into the custom
(25:11):
GPT, which gives thefacilitators the confidence to
deliver the programme because,at the end of the day, we are
not a drama programme.
We are not.
I do not consider ourselves tobe a drama programme.
I have no interest in exposingpeople to the arts.
(25:34):
That is not my primary.
Exposing people to the arts,that is not my primary objective
, don't get me wrong.
Like, it's quite common for usto encounter people who have no
interest in the arts orcreativity, who discover that
actually they have an interestin writing or performing, and
(25:56):
that's great and we encouragethem performing, and that's
great and we encourage them.
But that's not our primaryobjective.
Our primary objective is yourrelationship with self, that
conversation that's going oninside your head 24-7, about
everything.
Everything that you encounter,every person that you encounter,
initiates a conversation insideyour head, a response.
(26:19):
So alcohol, sugar, coffee, sex,status, money it's a long list,
it's basically everything inyour world.
The conversation generates aresponse and that is the
conversation that maintainssuffering in the form of
(26:48):
criminal behaviour or addiction.
So it's a serious game thatwe're playing.
It's life or death.
And if AI can be used to supportthe facilitators in such a way
that the impact and reach of theprogram can be expanded, then
I'm all for it.
(27:08):
On the Find your Mentor program, there is also a custom GPT so
an individual going through theprogram will access some videos,
some text tutorials and thenstep one, step two, step three
and they will also access acustom GPT Again eight years'
(27:33):
worth of documents andspecialist books Basically
everything that I can think ofwhich can support the individual
going through this programmehas been uploaded into that
custom GPT, and part of theprogram is the encouragement to
(28:02):
check in with the GPT on a dailybasis.
And the GPT has been engineeredin such a way that it is
designed to represent your innermentor.
So, rather than being trappedin a conversation in your head,
listening to the inner critic asmuch as possible, we want you
(28:27):
to be engaged in a conversationwith your inner mentor.
Now you can have thatconversation internally with
your own inner mentor withpractice.
But you can also shortcut thatprocess by using the GPT
(28:51):
representation of your innermentor within this program.
I personally, as part of thedevelopment and testing process
of this program, I have beenchecking in with the inner
(29:12):
mentor GPT every day for 18months and personally I feel
like it has added a lot of valueto my perspective outlook
consciousness, my perspectiveoutlook consciousness, the way I
(29:36):
go about my business day to dayhas been supercharged by the
fact that, with practice, I amable to communicate with my
inner mentor and I am also ableto communicate with an AI
representation of my innermentor.
(29:57):
It's the same conversation butit's clearly a different medium,
because when I'm communicatingwith my inner mentor, in my
experience the most conducivemedium to do so is meditation,
(30:19):
whereas when I'm communicatingwith the AI representation of my
mentor, I'm doing it on myphone.
I can either type directly intoit or I can speak directly into
it using the microphone iconand then the response I can
either read or I can hit thespeaker button.
I can configure the voice, Ican have it male, female,
different accents and and I canI can listen to the response.
I personally prefer to speak inand listen back rather than um
(30:44):
type and read, because I findthat to be more of a kind of
backwards and forwardsconversation type situation.
So, in a nutshell, that isbasically the application and
usage of um custom GPTs one onthe Find your Mentor program and
one on the Anonymous Dramaprogram.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Okay, well, throw out your contact info so people can
keep up with everything thatyou're up to.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yeah, any social media platform, I am on all of
them.
Any social media platform I'mon, you know, I am on all of
them.
So it's M-E-R-K.
Mark M-E-C, n-i-c-o-l.
Mark McNichol, and that's the.
You know that's on TikTok,instagram, facebook, twitter,
all of them.
(31:32):
And in the bio there is a linkto each subscription.
There's a link for anybodywho's interested in delivering a
group.
They can subscribe to gothrough the accreditation
process and then deliver a grouplocally, in any setting.
(31:54):
It doesn't need to be prison,residential rehab, it doesn't
have to be justice recovery, itcould be any group.
So the subscription is on there.
And then, if somebody findsthis type of self-exploration
(32:17):
work interesting and the idea ofanalysing the inner chat,
putting it under the microscopeand starting to, you know, like
emptying a washing machine fullof socks and starting to kind of
sort them all into differentcolours and different pairs, if
(32:40):
anybody's interested in the ideaof doing that, I would say well
, what have you got to lose?
You don't need to be religious,you don't need to be spiritual,
you could be atheist, agnostic.
Anybody can come to the workbecause it can be applied in an
(33:07):
atheist, agnostic, spiritual orreligious context.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
All right.
Ladies and gentlemen, you guysbe sure to check out mark's work
.
You know, check out his film.
Check out his writing, follow,rate, review.
Share this episode to as manypeople as possible.
You know, check check outanonymous drama.
Jump on your favorite podcastapp, follow us, check out the
show, rate us, review us.
(33:38):
If you have any guests orsuggestion topics, curtis
Jackson 1978 at attnet is theplace to send them.
Thank you for listening andsupporting the show.
This does not happen withoutyou and Mark.
Thank you for all the work thatyou're doing to make the world
a better place and thank you forjoining me well, thank you,
because if it wasn't for peoplelike you, people like me
(34:00):
couldn't get the word out formore information on the living
the dream podcast, visitwwwdjcurveballcom.
Until next time, stay focusedon living the dream.
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