April 21, 2021 • 47 mins
I invite Angie Long on for a third time to discuss how friendship in romance is a defining characteristic of an enduring relationship and how to cultivate it if we don't have it.
Angie and I put our brains together to develop a simple Journal template to facilitate regular introspection leading to deeper affection and connection with the people we love most. You can snag it for FREE here. Matt also will provide a short video tutorial to show you how he uses templates like this one regularly in his life with a journal application called DayOne.
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Things Discussed In Episode:
- The Gottman Institute
- The Second Mountain by David Brooks
- David Brooks speaks at the Leo Hill Leadership Speaker Series at the University of Colorado Boulder.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Boettger (00:00):
Whether you are in a relationship right now, a
romantic relationship, or youwant to be in a romantic
relationship right now, you wantto listen to this episode, this
has incredible big, huge valuebombs.
I bring on someone who wasincredibly dear to my own heart
to talk about a really difficultand beautiful topic.
And that is love romantic loveand how we actually have that
(00:23):
kind of romantic love.
And how do we can groundourselves as something that it
can weather about anything inlife.
So stay tuned and stay to thevery end.
We promise to give you somethingfor free.
That if you are struggling rightnow in any way with a romantic
relationship and want to take itto the next level, we're going
to give you a free resource tohelp you step-by-step to slowly
(00:44):
move yourself into a more deeperand loving relationship.
Okay, let's get going.
Are you living the most reallife possible?
I ask myself this question allthe time.
Most of the time, the answer isI just don't know, but sometimes
(01:06):
the answer is definitely not.
This is why I have this podcast.
I'm Matt Boettger and welcome tothe show.
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If you get a chance, pleaseleave a review like on Apple
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life possible now on with theshow.
(01:28):
Okay.
So I bring on my sister onceagain, Angie long, who is a
licensed marriage and familytherapist who has incredible
amount of years of experience totalk about a statement that I
saw a couple of months ago.
A statement about why marriages,why romantic relationships
ultimately fail.
(01:49):
And it's not because of a lackof love.
So I bring on Angie long to talkabout this, to see, to what
extent she sees this in her ownlife and how we can better our
most romantic relationships.
We can get the most value out ofthem in thrive, even in the
context of adversity.
So here's my conversation with.
(02:09):
Angie long.
Okay.
So I want to start with thisSIS.
So I got this like lectureabout, I think it was in
February and I was watchingthis.
See you, what do you know, DavidBrooks, by the way,
Angie Long (02:24):
I've read his articles.
He's a journalist, and anauthor.
And I've read one of his books.
Matt Boettger (02:29):
He's a commentator on New York times.
Right?
I was acquainted with him withthis book called the second
mountain.
Is that the one you read?
I
Angie Long (02:34):
think I read his book before that.
And I've heard you talk aboutthe second mountain before but I
don't believe I've read
Matt Boettger (02:42):
that battery.
The number one.
Okay.
So number one, you have to readthat.
And everyone who is listening tohas to read this book, it's a
really, really good book, butthat didn't come from the book.
So in, I think February, March,the university of Colorado,
Boulder had David Brooks comespeak well, in a pandemic come
speak means.
Zoom.
So, so the zoomed in and had totalk.
And so I was listening to it.
It was really, really good.
I might have to send it to youand I'll put in the show notes
as well.
(03:02):
If anybody else wants to watchit as a really, I think a good
he gave a good talk, but hesaid, there's one line that kind
of provoked me.
And I, and he said that I thinkit was out of the blue.
Hadn't been some context, but hesaid most marriages failed
because of a lack of friendship.
Over that of a lack of love.
And now I know I sent this toyou a bit earlier and I found
out, by the way, do you knowthat he's not the first one, the
first person to say this?
(03:23):
I'm guessing.
You're probably thinking no,duh, but did you know that?
I didn't know.
Angie Long (03:27):
I pulled up.
Yeah.
Even a quote from Aristotle thatI write.
This is like ancientphilosophers.
I believe you just taught me
Matt Boettger (03:36):
Aristotle.
Totally.
Yeah, that was way be fine to bebefore Tik TOK.
So Aristotle apparently saidthis is important thing.
So I want to start with this.
I like that.
Quote, what are you, first ofall, what comes to mind when you
hear that quote, do you thinkthat's an accurate, maybe you've
been in, this is another thingit's pretty good.
Having siblings on.
If you ever have a podcast,having siblings on a podcast is
(03:57):
probably a good idea because youactually get to know them a
little bit more because Irealized, Oh you're a therapist.
I've known that for a while.
So that's.
Not surprising, but the secondthing, I don't know what kind of
the therapist you are.
So I was thinking, okay.
So when you talk about marriagesfail because of lack of
friendship and love, I want toknow What do you think about
that?
What have you experienced thatin your own therapy and by the
way, do you do marriagecounseling?
(04:17):
I have no clue.
I just heard you just do likerandom,
Angie Long (04:20):
random therapy, a new approach.
No, I have worked with couples,but I don't do a ton of marriage
counseling by choice.
However, I'm a firm believerthat individual accounts.
When people come for individualcounseling relationship issues
are.
Almost always present andcertainly change can happen as a
result of individual counseling.
(04:41):
So I come through a lens of, ormy experience is mostly
individual, but I have workedwith some couples.
And where I see this, beyondworking with the couples is with
people in their twenties, whoare trying to decide is this
person that I've been with fortwo or three years?
I don't know.
How do I know when they're, ifthey're the one what is it
supposed to be like?
I don't know about marriage.
(05:02):
And so this in individualcounseling, this comes up with a
lot of younger people that Iwork with in their twenties who
are really contemplating thislong-term relationship.
Do I want to, are we taking thenext step?
And I wholeheartedly agree thatfriendship is something that
people often they don't thinkabout.
There's some other idea abouthow you're supposed to know when
(05:24):
you get married, but like thisidea of friendship, it often
comes up and I, wholeheartedlyagree that it's huge of huge
importance in marriages.
Matt Boettger (05:35):
So then.
Okay, so that's the w I think, Ithink I really, really agree
that friendship is prettyindispensable.
Part of love and relationships.
We can go down a lot of paths,you and I about where we
establish friendship.
But I just want to start withidea what is friendship?
Because.
In my mind, it's it can bedifferent.
There's people, I hang withthat, like a set of like dudes
that I hang with guys, and theiridea of friendship is just
(05:59):
hanging out, shooting thebreeze.
And there really is no emotioninvolved with it.
At least there's no overtemotion.
And because when I think of whatwe're going down a path with,
if, with, with David, Brookesaying that friendship is
indispensable for a goodmarriage, then the first thing I
think about is emotional, likeconnection.
And maybe that's not right, butlike emotional connection,
because I think I, men Tennesseehave a tendency not to be so
(06:22):
emotionally, maybe involved in arelationship.
So maybe that's the cultivationneeds to be happening.
But when you think aboutfriendship, I'm like, wait, what
do we mean by.
Cultivating a good friendship inthe context of love, I think
Angie Long (06:34):
affection.
Right?
So even though what you'retalking about is maybe you get
together with these friends andmaybe you're not like talking
about a bunch of emotionalstuff, but my guess would be is
that there's some affection youhave for one another, right?
Like that you show up and youmaybe enjoy maybe even some
oftentimes, I think there'sthis, like holding someone else
(06:56):
in maybe like a high esteem.
I think those can be factors offriendship and maybe emotional
trust, and sometimes there are,I've sometimes there's Outward
circles of friendship, right?
And sometimes the smallestcircle of holds all of these
things.
And then there are varyinglevels of this.
But I just think of a general,like a wanting the best for one
(07:17):
another and being on eachother's side, it doesn't have to
be, I think some people think,Oh we don't like to do the same
things.
I actually don't think thatparticularly matters.
I think it's about how yourespond to one another that's
most important.
And there's a John Gottman is afamous sort of researcher in
marriage.
He's a, I think he was atherapist, but he does a lot of
(07:38):
research.
He has a marriage lab up in theSeattle area and he.
Essentially done research thatsays he can predict with 90%
accuracy who will divorce andwho will remain together in
marriages after he has them,come into this marriage lab and
he has them talk about some areaof conflict and then observes
how they respond to that.
(08:00):
And so he is come up with it.
And I think this ties in well,because he has said there's four
sort of deadly horsemen formarriages and that's contempt.
Criticism, defensiveness andstonewalling.
Now a brief quick stonewallingis what it sounds like.
I'm literally like putting up awall between you and I, and it
comes out of maybe because I'moverwhelmed and I'm just
(08:22):
withdrawing, shutting down, notengaging with you.
So that's what stonewalling is.
But, I think this is a niceexample because he's found out
these things are huge detrimentsto marriages lasting often lead
to divorce when they're mostprevalent.
And so I think you can flip thatand it connects with what
friendships is.
Like you often don't havecontempt and criticism for your
(08:45):
friends, or you're probably justlike they're going off the
friends list.
It's just,
Matt Boettger (08:49):
it's a lot easier that way.
You can.
That's why it's hard to it'slike we're alone with a friend.
Maybe that's not the right thingto do, but this is where I think
not to go down like a reallydeep rabbit hole of trying to
make terms be everything.
But one of the books I read along time ago, relationships
talk to that idea aboutsympathy.
I don't know if I put this onein the notes, but by the idea
that there's sympatheticrelationships, which is a real,
what he calls it like a rawmaterial of love, but it's just
(09:11):
a raw material and sympathy isjust basically like mutual
experience.
It's so Hey SIS, let's go to aMarvel movie and we're like,
okay, let's go.
So we go and we both have areally powerful fun experience.
We both experienced passively areally good movie.
We bond over the experience.
And so then we end up thinkingthat we're bonding and we are,
but it's very immature.
(09:31):
It has nothing, there's nothingactive about it.
It's just us.
We both happen to be in the sameenvironment.
Same time, both enjoy the samething.
And that was the bond.
It's still a bond, but it's notactive.
It's not like one pursuantanother the person.
And I feel like sometimes we getin this road of Oh, we
experienced somebody.
We both like each other, likeall of a sudden we're like, Ugh,
You feel icky and then you justdismiss them and move on.
You go, you find a new friend,so it seems like it's an easier
(09:53):
reality to deal with friendshipin that way.
But then my fear is when wetreat freshmen like that way,
then we get into relationshipsthat are love.
But then we feel like we have tostay in it.
But then we don't bring our agame.
We sit in this ah, you're icky,but then, and then we just stay
in that mode.
And I'm guessing that isprobably one of the elements of
that prevents us from movingfrom a deeper relationship and a
(10:14):
friendship, which so I'mwondering, like, how do you like
build a friendship with in thosesituations where you're feeling
really rubbed and in, in yourgo-to is maybe the Stonewall, or
I don't know what the otherones, you said, the other ones
where that's your defensemechanism, that's your safety
mode, right?
Or your self preservationdefensive, but now you're in
(10:34):
this relationship.
Yeah.
And now you want to like, try tomove into a place where ah, I
don't.
I can't cut this person off orobjectively.
I don't want to cut this personoff, but but my constant thing
is going to these particular.
Traits that aren't helping.
How on earth do I get myself outof that?
If in one of those relationshipsand begin to lean into possibly
(10:57):
a friendship, which you said haslike affection affection
Angie Long (11:00):
for someone, right?
It starts with.
You talk about this a lot.
I think like discovery, right?
Like I use the wordintrospection, like it starts
with awareness.
Well, to go, okay, how am Irelating to this other person?
And just, you can take a fewdays or a week and kind of
figure out how, Oh, wow.
(11:21):
As criticism in that remark, Ijust said it might've been
contempt.
Or we got a little defensivethere or I would drew like you
can, self-assess pretty easilynow what?
And just a little.
Sidebar is that oftentimes whatcouples, when they show up in
therapies, they want to tell mewhat the other person is doing
wrong.
And I encourage them not to go,don't go keep track of what your
spouse is doing wrong.
(11:41):
That is a dangerous road.
That's about blame that'scontempt criticism right there.
And so it's about, becomingintrospective and going okay.
If I, why don't I look at this?
How am I responding?
Especially around areas ofconflict.
And then once you recognize thatone, that in itself is powerful
just to go, Oh my gosh.
I didn't realize all the waysthis is showing up in my
relationship and what I'msaying.
(12:03):
And then you have tointentionally cultivate.
Something new.
Can I, when I noticed thatarise, I can choose not to act
on it.
I don't have to say the criticalthing.
I can, pause, be with that andchoose to say something
supportive.
And what we know is about changein general, like the best way to
change is through littlefrequent practices.
(12:24):
It's little and often it's.
Okay.
So it's not like I need some biginsight or some big
intervention.
It really is about going.
I'm going to bring my awarenessand my chin to this.
I'm going to look at myselfrather than through a lens of
what the other's doing wrong andthen go, what do I want to
invite in?
And inviting in.
(12:45):
Affection for the other issomething you can do.
And, we're designed to believewhat we tell ourselves.
So when you start talkingdifferently and start thinking
differently, you start feelingdifferently, you start acting
differently.
All these things are connectedand influence one another.
So even if you don't feel it,you can start the action and
you'll get to feeling at somepoint,
Matt Boettger (13:05):
this doesn't happen overnight.
Like a switch a couple thingsright.
Racing through my mind of thisidea of, well, okay.
Whenever I get triggered.
I'm going to default to my mostbasic instinct, which is
probably not, for some people,it might be a virtuous instinct
for other people's.
It might be.
I go back to my defensiveness.
So usually when I tell peopleabout trying to practice a
better sense of relationship orleaning into someone that
(13:27):
practicing in a moment of atrigger.
Is absolute futile and neverworks to your advantage.
So get to practice continuouslyoutside them in safe zone of
practicing, cultivating thesense of in the same way that I
probably got here, or we gothere in a certain way, in a
relationship, not because ofparticularly the unique.
Relationship, maybe that's partof it, but also a lot of things
(13:48):
that predated that go from yourwhole history and your past.
And so get this question oflike, when it comes to
facilitating relationships anddeepen relationships, you said a
Gottman can predict 90%accuracy, whether a marriage is
going to fail.
Now, where does that stuff comefrom?
How much of is it, how much ofit is nature and how much of it
is nurture?
Because I think we, I feel likewe live in this gap, at least me
(14:11):
and you, I don't know about likegeneration Z and that kind of
stuff, where.
There, we lived in a transitionperiod of our, the ideas of
marriage began to shift andchange.
And the values you mentionedthis time, how like the emphasis
on friendship and marriage, itsounds weird, but isn't it a
relatively new concept?
Angie Long (14:27):
I think it would be, I think it could be because I
think there are generationalthings and I'm thinking about
parents, say our parents, ourgrandparents, and maybe what
they learned about marriage.
And just the realities that,that they experienced.
I think for some sometimes Ithink maybe they maybe looked
more towards like I'm thinkingof the woman in the marriage,
(14:50):
looked more towards femalefriends for friendship, sort of
things.
And also another factor that Ithink contributes is.
Our parents and ourgrandparents, for example, got
married, much younger ages andwe did.
And so, they were, I wonder howthat just impacts your view of a
marriage.
I can't even imagine, justfinishing, being a teenager and
(15:11):
then you're, you're married andhow you navigate, what are my
beliefs and ideas about who myspouse is and how that's
supposed to look versus.
Friendship.
And so I think that there canbe, and probably is some
interesting information outthere about sort of general
generational differences aboutit, and if, I think if you go
(15:33):
back, I'm just thinking, youhave the fifties family what
was, you almost said stereotype,but it was true.
And so I'm just wondering if.
If people who are in those kindsof marriages, where maybe you're
not happy and maybe you don'thave a lot of choice to make
changes, then you know, I don'tknow how friendship gets brought
(15:55):
even into that.
I think back to when womencouldn't really work outside the
home or couldn't have their owncredit card, this was like,
Yeah, around when I was born,like this was, so this isn't
that long ago.
Okay.
And how would that impact, yourview?
Because there was a powerdifferential, and so how does
that impact friendship inmarriages that, that, that.
(16:17):
Existed or in let's still existtoday in many I'm sure.
Matt Boettger (16:22):
Yeah.
In different ways.
No, it blew my mind now.
I might pretty taken this toofar, of course, but I haven't
tended to exaggerate anythingbecause for the sake of
simplicity, but it reminds me ofKate.
We live in this era now bywhich, Oh my gosh, women have a
voice and it was so muchsimpler, epics and quotation.
When one person didn't have avoice.
And the other one, did you knowhow much easier to keep
(16:43):
stability in the marriage?
And now when you have two peoplewho are actually human beings
equals come into relationship,no wonder divorce is maybe like
increasing because now it'sharder because now you actually
have to deal with a relationshipversus a power struggle.
And that's the beauty of itright now, we have to learn.
So I feel like we're late to thegame there we're actually at the
(17:03):
cutting edge is believing thatwe're both equals.
In the relationship.
And so how do we come togetherand not feel okay.
When we're in a household we candisagree.
But as soon as we disagree, theman's decision overtakes, I've
heard these traditional models,right?
Well that, that's an easy way ofdoing things, but now when
you're coming together and no,we work together and we find a
solution it's a lot harder.
(17:24):
It's a lot harder to be able tonavigate this train and having
we need all the more we needresources because this is the
opportunity to cultivate.
Like a real friendship, and, andlean into each other's worlds
versus one person's worldbecomes the other person's
world, which I feel like thathas a tendency to be the case.
Angie Long (17:41):
Well, if that was your model and then you're in
something different, you get Youbump up against beliefs that you
never really looked at veryclosely, right?
Oh, I realized, I assumed this,I thought this, or I have this
belief about this.
And so that, that shows up andagain, if you're willing to.
(18:02):
Give it time and attention andexplore it.
That's the opening, the gap.
I'll use your word.
That's the opening for changefor introducing something new.
Matt Boettger (18:12):
And it just really is a kind of like I tell
people over and over that itwasn't until, marriage that I
realized My inability to havereally intimate friendships.
I think I realized, Oh, becauseof marriage.
Cause it keeps you in a positionwhere like you're forced to be
able to be with someone and youhave to be vulnerable or there
has consequences.
If you just keep, if you giveyour a lock of vault, there's
just consequences that areunhealthy.
(18:33):
It's easy.
It's like I said, to be able tobe in a friendship and ah, it's
just not working and then youleave, but this is a friendship
you're trying to cultivate.
You just don't leave.
And so then it really opens upyour the lack of friendship, the
lack of vulnerability andprevents new opportunities to
really grow in friendship.
So get into that you weretalking about before we got on
about models.
(18:53):
So I don't know how much you gotinto Gottman that because I'm
curious.
Cause he talks about You can, ifhe can, if he keeps any 90%
accuracy of determining whichrelationships fail and which
ones succeed, like what are someof the common denominators that
cultivate a really healthy.
Romantic relationship.
Angie Long (19:09):
So what he's saying, what he's looking for, so he
would have them talk about anarea of conflict and a quickest
side.
These are like, what do you callit?
I think I'm not sure the word touse.
It's perpetual conflicts, a lotof conflicts in marriages.
Aren't solvable.
They don't necessarily go on andon and on.
And so it's not that you have tosolve the conflict.
I think that's sometimes, I justwant to put that out there that
(19:33):
these often are recurrentarguments or conflicts.
So it's about how they talkabout him.
And he said in stable marriagesthat there was like A positive,
there was some sort of positiveeffect.
So there might be humor.
There might be understanding,showing up there's empathy.
There's just a positive, a wayof interacting that doesn't
(19:54):
involve contempt, criticism,defensiveness, and stonewalling.
And he went so far as to say instable marriages, that, that
ratio, he does this, the ratiosis five to one.
So for every criticism.
There's five positiveinteractions and by positive I'm
meaning, just this okay, I'mtrying to understand doesn't
(20:16):
mean I'm not mad and I'm allhappy, but maybe it just means I
inject some humor into it, or Itry to understand what the other
person's saying, or I reflectthat back to them.
But so it's a very differentfeel.
And then he said an unstablemarriages.
That ratio is 0.8 to one.
(20:36):
You're talking about almostequal, negative to positive sort
of interactions.
Again, talking about almostequal criticism, as opposed to a
positive reference towards yourspouse in some way.
That's a big
Matt Boettger (20:53):
difference.
Framing this for our listeners,they're like, okay, there's one
set.
There's those who aren't marriedin it, not a romantic
relationship.
In many looking to be in arelationship and they want to
have a successful relationship,which we're saying that, okay.
According to Brooks court, ineach acorn, Aristotle accord,
that friendship is, it's likethe foundation stone to really
cultivate a good romanticrelationship.
(21:13):
I was thinking about this idea.
Now I'm throw his pass.
I like, I love imagery.
Of this idea of, okay, wellthere's raw materials are all
relationship.
There needs to be desire.
Like you need clearly anyrelationships needs to, you need
a desire to want to be with theperson that's your own kind of
desire, your own self-interestthe other side.
And the raw material isGoodwill, like actually wanting
their wellbeing.
And then there also is sympathyby having a mutual experience
(21:34):
and it's powerful.
So all of these kinds of thingsare the raw material.
And I feel like romantic love islike the reason why we've been
making homemade bread lately.
So it's like that yeast, likethe, they put in the raw
material, like particularmaterial, they make it rise and
make it really bigger than thesum of it.
Parts, right?
Because romance is a prettyprofound and a big reality that
it feels almost, it feels almostmystical at times.
There's such a connection.
So deep spiritual that reallytranscends any kind of
(21:58):
friendship that you have.
And all of my only bestequivalent is that it's not like
romantic relationship becausethis is where I want to make
this caveat, because I feel likeworking in a college level, I
feel like sometimes they treat.
Really romantic relationships issomething other it's my
friendship.
And then there's something otheras if it has its own criteria by
which to measure something,because sometimes they skip the
(22:20):
friendship and go right into theromance.
The at least it'd besimultaneous at the friendship
is so powerful and needed andthat romance is that yeast or
whatever that 11th, it makes it.
Big and profound.
If th the question is how thenin one context of people who are
looking for a bromance in theirlife, how can they build good
habits to be able to have agood, solid friendship, or at
(22:43):
least try to pursue that in themidst of the romance?
Because.
I know this, like when I firststarted dating Jean, my world
revolved around Jan, I left allmy friends, all my
circumstances, and every wakingmoment was about hanging out
with her, which of course isnormal.
It's infatuation.
That's the first step.
But some of that can be a littlebit of a slippery slope because
then you don't get that chanceto really cultivate maybe a deep
(23:04):
friendship right on, becauseyou're not introducing them to
your world.
That was before Jan or before,which is part of your life and
vice versa.
So you don't get that chance tocommingle with all these other
life circumstances and be like,Oh, that's cool.
That's neat.
So in the context of singlelife, what are some good habits
that we can take to reallystrengthen their capacity, to
(23:25):
build a good friendship in thecontext of romantic
Angie Long (23:28):
love, the friendship?
Has to come first.
It can be that those romanticlove strong feelings are the
initial attraction.
And that makes sense.
I'm just thinking aboutoftentimes like one hallmark of
adolescence is intensity offeelings.
And so and there's that sameintensity when you're meeting
(23:50):
someone and falling in love.
And so these one, if we'reyounger, when that happens or
that's just how it works.
And so it doesn't mean I shouldbe friends first.
That's certainly a very solidfoundation to have, so I
wouldn't discourage it, but Idon't think it's necessarily a
negative or some sort ofpredictor if it's really
(24:10):
romantic love.
Initially, because that's oftenhow it looks and what happens.
I think what comes is.
I think a way to think aboutthis.
One thing I think is how younavigate areas of conflict is
this is where this could showup, right?
Because that's where a lot ofthese, I'll just say the uglier
stuff is going to present.
(24:30):
It's going to present itself.
And so being able to almostconsider how to do that
intentionally and to how to.
To have in the back of your mindthat it's, there's, it's not
either, or it's not romanticlove or friendship, but maybe
both.
And these are not mutuallyexclusive.
And shouldn't be as what we'resaying that, bringing in and
thinking about, having afriendship and in addition to a
(24:53):
romantic love, it's like afoundational piece, since Things
change.
We don't maintain that intensityof feelings in those early
stages of dating and meeting for50 years, I would personally
argue that what develops is alot more powerful in a lot of
ways, like a deeper, moreintimate love or someone sees.
(25:15):
All of you, even the not sopretty stuff and loves you
anyway and loves you with all ofthat.
I think that's more powerful,but and so this, recognizing
okay, there's something here Ican tend to and pay attention
to, which is, friendship.
And when I think of that it'sthis Positive sort of in your
(25:35):
corner affection, trust of oneanother.
And, and to bring that in arounddifferences, or for example,
what you said earlier is like,when you're triggered, that's
hard, but if you start to knowwhat triggers you and those
early signs of being triggered,there's an opportunity there.
(25:56):
To do something differently.
Whether it's simply okay, I'mhaving a strong reaction right
now and I want to be supportiveand I'm just going to go take a
10 minute break right now.
You know that's an option
Matt Boettger (26:08):
call to mind this, again, working on college
scenes is this idea where.
There's a, there's a falsereality that somehow romantic
love will eclipse all theshortcomings that I'm dealing
with life.
And I think that's one of thethings I'm like where I've, I
felt I've fallen prey to this inmy own life where you just, you
have such a romantic version ofromance, which is great, but.
(26:29):
It's a powerful reality, but itdoesn't overcome your weaknesses
just by default that you stillbring your weaknesses with you.
But in fact, believe it or not,it's going to magnify them down
the road.
It's going to magnify them inone way or another.
So working on a deep sense ofself-awareness I think what you
were saying is so incrediblyimportant that if your tendency
(26:49):
is to deeply avoid conflict todeeply, to not really share your
feelings, if that's yourdefault.
You're a gravitational force.
It's really good to be awarefrom that because it's not going
to go away.
When you enter into a romanticrelationship, now it'll be
ignored because the romance isso intense and so wonderful.
You'll forget about it.
You'll be all the moreagreeable.
(27:10):
Oh, whatever you want to do.
But then eventually your ownhumanity is going to take hold
and you're gonna be like, Oh, Iwant to be seen too.
Not that it's anybody's fault.
It may be just the environmentof the romance, but then great.
Guess what?
That baggage that we all have.
It's still there and it's goingto be magnified.
It has been magnified in thedating and a magnified if you
(27:30):
get married tremendously,because now, cause I'm thinking
of Renee Brown.
Of course we had to bring her inbecause she's wholeheartedness I
broke it down to these two areasthat this is, I feel like
there's two areas ofwholeheartedness in my brother's
tenderness.
And then there's vulnerability.
There is a tenderness which hasme working to be my response to
somebody else's with tenderness.
And that means, not Stonewall injudging that kind of stuff.
(27:52):
Can you be tender with someonewhen it's painful, right.
And be with them and take ontheir realities to, to help them
and assist them without losingyour own.
And then the other side isvulnerability.
That is like me showing up andbringing my stuff to the table,
even though it might hurt.
I think that is the strongcultivation that needs to be
practiced.
(28:13):
Outside the context and insidethe context, but at least be
aware of I have this tendency,it can vex well, anything.
Any friendship, definitelyromance that if you can't come
to the table and bring your truecolors, or at least begin to
show like, this is how I reallyfeel, because I'm afraid of
being judged.
This is not going to go away inromance.
This is going to be double.
Angie Long (28:34):
I'm just thinking like, how can you be vulnerable?
Yeah.
With someone, if you're gettingmore criticism back then
kindness, so to speak.
And so that's part of beingvulnerable.
Is there needs to be someemotional trust.
I won't, that person will hurtme with this.
They won't criticize me.
(28:55):
I won't be shamed or judged orand so in order to bring that.
In order to be able to like,bring that cause it takes an act
of courage, I think, to bevulnerable with one another in
it.
And personally I'm notvulnerable with people who I
know very vulnerable with thosepeople who I know are ready to
experience are going to becritical or turn it around on me
(29:17):
in some unhelpful way.
And so if you're, thattenderness and vulnerability,
it's if one's.
Being vulnerable than trying tomeet whether you use tenderness
or just, trying to at leastmaybe, maybe the, if you have a
tendency towards contempt andcriticism and thing, and these
things, then maybe the firststep is how do I.
(29:37):
Respond neutrally, so I'm not,and then from there I can maybe
start to add in, Oh, how do Irespond in w that is an empathic
response?
How do I respond in a supportiveway?
Can I bring humor in it?
Can I show that I understand.
Stand in these statements.
And there's, if we look atthings on a continuum, there's a
lot of space for movement andmaybe the best first step is
(30:01):
okay I'm just going to try torespond with, with, I'm going to
leave this and just try to beneutral if it's too great of a
jump to get all the way overhere, even that could make a
difference in movement andmomentum.
But, I think it's powerful to,be vulnerable there, there needs
to be some trust that I won'tbe.
Like hurt back, and again, if ithappens occasionally that's not,
(30:22):
it's not like this can neverhappen.
It's that if that happens, whatGottman is seeing that predict
stable marriages is that there'sfive other positive interactions
that it's like covering it orsurrounding it with love.
You know, if there's this onehurt, but the rest of it is all
affection, friendship, love,tenderness, whatever we want to
call it, that doesn't become thedominant narrative of the
(30:47):
exchange or even the
Matt Boettger (30:48):
relationship.
That's great.
It reminds me of that.
I just show you that pyramidthat I created.
I don't have that.
I put it into one of the notesthat I gave to you, but I called
the behavioral pyramid where itreally is like, there's the
result.
It's a great way.
I think it's helped me toreflect a little bit more of
like I had these results in mylife.
The things that I have, themaybe the not so good things in
my life, like where are theycoming from?
Why do I end up being in thesesituations and having these
(31:10):
kinds of results?
And that comes from my actions,but of course my actions come
from something else.
But come from those beliefs thatI have.
But those beliefs come from mythoughts and my thoughts come
from my emotions and my emotionscome from the base layer, which
is the experience.
And that experience is thefoundation by which we live our
life for better, for worse.
And so when we think about man,my relationship is not where I
(31:30):
want it to be.
It's not maybe the ideal, that'sthe result, that's the outcome.
But then where did it come from?
There's lots of good resourcesthat you're saying providing,
but at the same time, There'sthat experience and that
experience as if I'm in arelationship, experience of
level of criticism that'sdisproportionate to then you're
just not going to feel safe.
So then the result most likelythat you'd be in to close
(31:51):
yourself up and that's not theright way to go.
So my question to you, as webegin to close this up is, two
things.
If you have a tendency to bethat person.
That Stonewall, that judgment,that criticism.
What's one thing that somebodycan do starting this week to
begin to open their heart alittle bit more, to be able to
be a little bit lessstonewalling, a little bit less
(32:12):
judgmental towards that person.
And then the other question is,but if you're on the other side
and you're a victim of that, andyou're the one being stonewalled
being criticized.
So now you're in this vulnerablesituation at different level,
what's one thing they can do tohelp them get a sense of
creating a safe environment,which I think is the most
difficult, because this is thewhere you're more the recipient
(32:33):
of something to begin to createan environment, help create an
environment.
To provide better trust andfriendship.
Angie Long (32:41):
If we start with the person who feels like I'm
criticized, I just want toacknowledge, there are some
situations where I don't knowthat it would even be the best
first step to try to changethis.
If there's like substance abuseproblems or actual.
Emotional violence or physicalviolence.
Let's you know, I w I want toacknowledge it, that there, it
could be that that's the truth.
(33:01):
This isn't a safe relationship.
And then that is something thatis, I would encourage someone to
get some help for so that theycan navigate that.
So if we take out that that'snot the case, then how might
you.
If your spouse is potentiallyopen to it, you might say, I
feel criticized, given examples,when you say this I, messages
(33:22):
sharing a feelings, make arequest, very basic,
communication.
And, I'd like you to be moreaware of, w when you're
criticizing me and not do thatso much.
And then there's this, sothere's feedback of course, and
sharing, and then there's this.
If I make a change, like if Ieven started to look at, if I
was on that side of theequation, I started to look at
(33:44):
well, am I, where can I.
Increase friendship.
Where can I offer that?
Sometimes that, individualchanges have an effect on
bigger, institutions.
They have a a, can change itbecause when someone's meeting
you differently, it does changeone's behavior.
So again, if it's a safe yeah.
Place that, these other sort ofmore extreme things are not
(34:07):
present where you really areunsafe.
Then I think it's starting withgetting feedback.
Maybe go into counseling,getting some support, whether
that's couples or individual,and also starting to go, okay
what if I respond in new waysoften that starts to create a
change.
Now don't just do it once andthen go.
It didn't work.
This happens it's again, littleand often.
(34:28):
Small changes that are sustainedover time, that can have an
impact.
So that's what I would suggestfor the person on that side of
it.
The person on the other side hasto one, the first step in
change, you gotta acknowledgeit's a problem.
So you got to recognize yourown, what's coming across in, in
how you're communicating anddecide to work on that in order
to make a change.
(34:49):
And, you can do simple thingslike even.
Yeah.
As long as you can put likesomething little in your pocket,
maybe you have a little stone orsomething, or in every time you
touch it, that's a reminder tosay something kind to your
spouse.
Or like your child, for example,you if that's what you're
working on, so you can createsome sort of physical.
Reminder where, Oh, every time.
(35:11):
Yeah.
I, I have this reminder that'sin my pocket and I put my hand
and feel it.
Yeah.
It's my reminder to say that.
And so you just practice it anddon't wait to practice it in an
argument, because like you weresaying, when you're triggered.
No, no, no.
It's way harder to access doingthat.
And get there, but you can justsay, I'm going to, try shoot for
five things today to say thatexpress friendship, affection,
(35:35):
like a positive regard for theother person.
And I'm just going to practicethat behavior.
And that's powerful because overtime one, it will change what
happens between the two.
Of you and two, it will createthis new habit and likely crowd
out the older habit of contemptand criticism and those sorts of
Matt Boettger (35:58):
things.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
I think it's just it's all goingback to the discovery.
I think, like you said, westarted off this idea of Prance
it practicing discovery where Ithink where we fall prey of
losing friendship, as we beginto determine who they are and
say, this is who they are to meis like the sense of polarity of
this is who I think they are.
This is what they stand for.
And in putting these notboundaries, but like these
(36:19):
walls, like the stonewalling.
But flipping it into the senseof discovery of like always
looking to like, what'sbeautiful about them.
What's great about them.
And then not just allowing thatto be your own treasure, which I
think sometimes we can fall preyto, we think about it.
We don't get beyond that, butthen they'd be bold and share it
with them.
And tell them, this is why Ilove you.
This is why I appreciate you.
This is what I see in you.
(36:41):
And it's a small things.
And I think, one thing you and Iwere talking about that, I think
it'd be fun.
So we'll commit to, this is I'ma big journaler.
I love journaling.
And I think it's fun.
It's been really.
It helps me to get into aroutine.
Like I said, I think it's thesmall habits you were saying
that build over time issomething great.
This small things alive to leadto transformation.
And in my life, unless I havesome system in place, I just end
(37:02):
up not, I don't do itfrequently.
I do it here and there.
It's like a vacation, but I'mnot, it's not part of my rhythm
of life.
If it's not on the calendar, itdoesn't get done.
So having a little template andthen maybe you and I coming
together, create a small littletemplate of a few questions to
ask to provoke, wonder andcuriosity in discovery about the
person, your child, your spouse,your girlfriend, your boyfriend
(37:24):
may be to help facilitate.
Discovering that reallybeautiful person in front of you
to cultivate a diff moreprofound friendships.
I know some people can be in sodeep.
They're thinking they'relistening.
I can't see anything.
I don't hear anything.
I don't see anything I give up.
But don't give up.
It's there.
And there's nobody on God'sgrace, outside of the, what you
(37:45):
were saying says violence, thesekinds of things.
That's a whole differentterritory, but in a neutral
terrain of just dysfunctionalpeople, trying to work together
and build a relationship.
It just takes habit andsometimes asking the same
question over and over and inlean discovery.
The first few days, weeks, theremay be very little on that
paper, but one day the font isgoing to be open and you're
(38:08):
going to see things like, Oh mygosh, I didn't recognize that
small thing.
She, every day she makes thebed.
I never do it and I never oncethanked her for it.
That's it's a little, it's alittle crack that begins to form
and turns into this huge,beautiful crevasse of like
really good, beautiful thingsyou see in another.
So you and I will commit to it.
So if you go to living thereal.com/friendship, You'll be
(38:30):
able to get that littledownload.
We'll do it as soon and get itsmall little template going to
give
Angie Long (38:33):
to you.
Add something there because Ilike what you're saying.
It's it's easy to notice thefaults and others, or what's,
what's wrong and intentionallyplacing your attention and
looking for the positives, whatyou value, what you appreciate,
what you enjoy is what I hearyou talking about.
And I think.
(38:54):
Like this template, I wouldalmost encourage it to be more
introspective and yeah.
How do I show up as a friend?
How do, how does that personsitting across from me, my
friend, while we're eatinglunch, view me, what do I think
they value?
And is that what I want toconvey?
And so it is about one, can Iappreciate the other instead of
(39:17):
focusing on their fault and theintrospective part is what's my
Either intention or valuesaround friendship.
And am I showing up in the wayas a friend that fits for me
with all of that?
That's great.
Matt Boettger (39:33):
This is why we, this is where we have you on.
We're going to do that.
It's great.
So we're but add introspection alittle of both.
It's going to be awesome.
I'm going to start using it assoon as created.
So I'm excited.
So good.
Live in the real.com/friendshipSnagit.
My last question to you, thisis, we didn't talk about this,
but this is like the middleground.
I'm just curious.
I had.
Somebody come talk to me aboutthis.
And I think this is more commonthan the other things we talked
(39:53):
about, and that is your innerrelationship by which it's a
good relationship.
You feel good, except for thehusband, just doesn't like to
share their emotions whatsoever.
They just don't.
But they feel like they're in agood relationship.
They wish they could have that,but they're okay.
Letting it go because that'sjust how he is now.
Is that okay?
And what do you do in thosesituations and be like it's a
good relationship, but I wish Ihad that.
(40:16):
And I've asked him a couple oftimes to share, and he just says
good or whatever.
He doesn't say anything.
And he just allows it to be thatterrain.
Is that just okay?
Or do we, like, how do we helpsomeone like open that door a
little bit?
It's a good relationship.
Angie Long (40:29):
I've heard that a lot.
Yes.
Where maybe one doesn't really.
Talk about emotions and it tendsto be associated with men more
than women.
And so I think there's abalancing of acceptance, like
knowing who this person is andmeeting them there.
Well asking for.
Changes if those really are,would you think benefit or
(40:53):
valuable?
And so I don't know that it's aneither or answer, or I would say
bringing some of those and notin a giving up acceptances in
the giving up okay, it's aboutgoing, I know this, my partner
loves me and accepting that,this is how he engages.
But it's also, there are alsothings you can do again, it
(41:16):
requires both people to want tochange this.
It that can maybe lead to morecomfort.
One thing we did as a familythat our son who's now 18 w has
always loved is at some point wejust started doing our highs and
lows around the dinner table.
And you just say okay, what'sthe best part of your day?
High, the low and.
(41:37):
I just did it once or a fewtimes, and then our son just
loved it and we had to do it allthe time.
He still does it aftervacations.
What's high and low for youguys, just so we all know, but
it's interesting.
Like even that in where we allare all talkers in our family
and we share this is not anissue for us, but what I learned
things and I learned things Iwouldn't have.
(41:58):
Known if we hadn't had this,because you forget, it's dinner
time now, and that happened at9:00 AM and I'm actually over
and done with it.
But when you reflect back, so Ido think there are practices
that maybe don't feel quite as.
Maybe frightening to someonewho's not used to sharing that
you can start to build apractice and a language around
sharing.
(42:19):
In other ways.
There's games now, questionsthat have question prompts that
you can pull one Oh tabletopics, right?
You can have that on your dinnertable and pull on and just,
maybe especially if this issomething that person wants to
change and is willing to change.
Can join in.
So I think it's a balance of,accepting bringing acceptance
(42:41):
and then being able to go, isthis something we can look at
and try to create some changein?
And ideally both people say yesin that or get to that and then
maybe find out how to go aboutdoing that.
Matt Boettger (42:54):
Yeah, I love it.
Rejoice in the crack, you know,not to cry.
So people get a lot of confusedabout what crack we're talking
about, but rejoicing the crack.
And there's this one thing Isent you in, in, on this, that
this one part.
It said ego based relationships.
I love this.
He must love me in the exact wayI need heart-centered
(43:16):
relationships.
I learned to honor your uniqueways of loving me.
Now.
I think there's room for thereobviously room for both of these
things that there's people whohave needs and you need to help
fulfill those needs.
And that also looking by with,the unique ways by which people
are loving.
There was this one, Facebookpost from some girl from high
school.
I loved it.
She said for decades anddecades, she has been looking to
(43:37):
have her husband fulfiller andall of her needs.
And it wasn't until there's ahandful of years ago that she
began to see, Oh my gosh, I'mthinking of this wrongly, all
the along.
She's been loving me in thesetremendous ways that have been
just not seen.
And they just didn't fit mylittle cliche, my little bubble
of what it means to be loved.
And now her heart is just blownopen.
So again, lean into discovery,finding those ways by which
(43:59):
people really do love you.
It doesn't mean that's theexclusive way, but it helps to
find that little crack to openup and find the beauty in that
person.
And then allow that to expandbigger and bigger, hopefully for
a more profound and beautifulcreation.
Yes.
All right.
Angie Long (44:14):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on, I wastalking about this stuff with
you.
Take care.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
Matt Boettger (44:22):
I really hope you enjoy this episode with Angie
long and myself and hisconversation about how we can
establish deeper foundations offriendship in the context of
romantic love.
I know I needed this and I'msure at least a handful of you
really needed this episode aswell.
And I.
Really hope you snag this freetemplate to be used as a way to
(44:43):
cultivate a recurring sense ofawe and wonder with the people
around you that you love mostdearly.
Now, of course, this isexcluding those difficult
situations where you're involvedin relationships that revolve
around substance abuse andphysical violence.
And for that, I ask you toplease seek professional help.
But for the other circumstancesin life, by which we just have a
(45:04):
tough time seeing the people infront of us, seeing that real
person being stuck in regret andresentment and frustration and
judgment.
But overcoming that and seeingthe profound beauty of the
person before us.
I hope I hope this helps you tohave a more deeply, real
(45:25):
relationship with the people youlove most.
Oh, and by the way, if you couldhear a little rug rats in the
background of the episode, Itruly apologize, but that is my
real life.
And sometimes the middle of theconversation.
Our little boys get out of theirnap times and they run
downstairs and we have beautifulhardwood floors, and I record in
(45:46):
the basement.
So there you have it.
You heard probably a number ofsounds.
I hope you enjoyed them andwe'll see you next episode.
Or without the Rugrats takecare.
Bye-bye thank you for listeningto this episode of living the
real.
If you want to check out moreinformation, go to living the
real.com and sign up for mynewsletter.
If you want to support thispodcast, you do that at
patrion.com/ltr as well as onetime.
(46:10):
Payments at Venmo and PayPal inthe show notes.
See you all next episode.
Take care.
Bye.
Whether you are in a relationship right now, a
romantic relationship, or youwant to be in a romantic
relationship right now, you wantto listen to this episode, this
has incredible big, huge valuebombs.
I bring on someone who wasincredibly dear to my own heart
to talk about a really difficultand beautiful topic.
And that is love romantic loveand how we actually have that
(00:23):
kind of romantic love.
And how do we can groundourselves as something that it
can weather about anything inlife.
So stay tuned and stay to thevery end.
We promise to give you somethingfor free.
That if you are struggling rightnow in any way with a romantic
relationship and want to take itto the next level, we're going
to give you a free resource tohelp you step-by-step to slowly
(00:44):
move yourself into a more deeperand loving relationship.
Okay, let's get going.
Are you living the most reallife possible?
I ask myself this question allthe time.
Most of the time, the answer isI just don't know, but sometimes
(01:06):
the answer is definitely not.
This is why I have this podcast.
I'm Matt Boettger and welcome tothe show.
Two small things.
If you get a chance, pleaseleave a review like on Apple
podcasts and also check out mywebsite, live in the real.com
where I offer lots of resourceson how to live the most real
life possible now on with theshow.
(01:28):
Okay.
So I bring on my sister onceagain, Angie long, who is a
licensed marriage and familytherapist who has incredible
amount of years of experience totalk about a statement that I
saw a couple of months ago.
A statement about why marriages,why romantic relationships
ultimately fail.
(01:49):
And it's not because of a lackof love.
So I bring on Angie long to talkabout this, to see, to what
extent she sees this in her ownlife and how we can better our
most romantic relationships.
We can get the most value out ofthem in thrive, even in the
context of adversity.
So here's my conversation with.
(02:09):
Angie long.
Okay.
So I want to start with thisSIS.
So I got this like lectureabout, I think it was in
February and I was watchingthis.
See you, what do you know, DavidBrooks, by the way,
Angie Long (02:24):
I've read his articles.
He's a journalist, and anauthor.
And I've read one of his books.
Matt Boettger (02:29):
He's a commentator on New York times.
Right?
I was acquainted with him withthis book called the second
mountain.
Is that the one you read?
I
Angie Long (02:34):
think I read his book before that.
And I've heard you talk aboutthe second mountain before but I
don't believe I've read
Matt Boettger (02:42):
that battery.
The number one.
Okay.
So number one, you have to readthat.
And everyone who is listening tohas to read this book, it's a
really, really good book, butthat didn't come from the book.
So in, I think February, March,the university of Colorado,
Boulder had David Brooks comespeak well, in a pandemic come
speak means.
Zoom.
So, so the zoomed in and had totalk.
And so I was listening to it.
It was really, really good.
I might have to send it to youand I'll put in the show notes
as well.
(03:02):
If anybody else wants to watchit as a really, I think a good
he gave a good talk, but hesaid, there's one line that kind
of provoked me.
And I, and he said that I thinkit was out of the blue.
Hadn't been some context, but hesaid most marriages failed
because of a lack of friendship.
Over that of a lack of love.
And now I know I sent this toyou a bit earlier and I found
out, by the way, do you knowthat he's not the first one, the
first person to say this?
(03:23):
I'm guessing.
You're probably thinking no,duh, but did you know that?
I didn't know.
Angie Long (03:27):
I pulled up.
Yeah.
Even a quote from Aristotle thatI write.
This is like ancientphilosophers.
I believe you just taught me
Matt Boettger (03:36):
Aristotle.
Totally.
Yeah, that was way be fine to bebefore Tik TOK.
So Aristotle apparently saidthis is important thing.
So I want to start with this.
I like that.
Quote, what are you, first ofall, what comes to mind when you
hear that quote, do you thinkthat's an accurate, maybe you've
been in, this is another thingit's pretty good.
Having siblings on.
If you ever have a podcast,having siblings on a podcast is
(03:57):
probably a good idea because youactually get to know them a
little bit more because Irealized, Oh you're a therapist.
I've known that for a while.
So that's.
Not surprising, but the secondthing, I don't know what kind of
the therapist you are.
So I was thinking, okay.
So when you talk about marriagesfail because of lack of
friendship and love, I want toknow What do you think about
that?
What have you experienced thatin your own therapy and by the
way, do you do marriagecounseling?
(04:17):
I have no clue.
I just heard you just do likerandom,
Angie Long (04:20):
random therapy, a new approach.
No, I have worked with couples,but I don't do a ton of marriage
counseling by choice.
However, I'm a firm believerthat individual accounts.
When people come for individualcounseling relationship issues
are.
Almost always present andcertainly change can happen as a
result of individual counseling.
(04:41):
So I come through a lens of, ormy experience is mostly
individual, but I have workedwith some couples.
And where I see this, beyondworking with the couples is with
people in their twenties, whoare trying to decide is this
person that I've been with fortwo or three years?
I don't know.
How do I know when they're, ifthey're the one what is it
supposed to be like?
I don't know about marriage.
(05:02):
And so this in individualcounseling, this comes up with a
lot of younger people that Iwork with in their twenties who
are really contemplating thislong-term relationship.
Do I want to, are we taking thenext step?
And I wholeheartedly agree thatfriendship is something that
people often they don't thinkabout.
There's some other idea abouthow you're supposed to know when
(05:24):
you get married, but like thisidea of friendship, it often
comes up and I, wholeheartedlyagree that it's huge of huge
importance in marriages.
Matt Boettger (05:35):
So then.
Okay, so that's the w I think, Ithink I really, really agree
that friendship is prettyindispensable.
Part of love and relationships.
We can go down a lot of paths,you and I about where we
establish friendship.
But I just want to start withidea what is friendship?
Because.
In my mind, it's it can bedifferent.
There's people, I hang withthat, like a set of like dudes
that I hang with guys, and theiridea of friendship is just
(05:59):
hanging out, shooting thebreeze.
And there really is no emotioninvolved with it.
At least there's no overtemotion.
And because when I think of whatwe're going down a path with,
if, with, with David, Brookesaying that friendship is
indispensable for a goodmarriage, then the first thing I
think about is emotional, likeconnection.
And maybe that's not right, butlike emotional connection,
because I think I, men Tennesseehave a tendency not to be so
(06:22):
emotionally, maybe involved in arelationship.
So maybe that's the cultivationneeds to be happening.
But when you think aboutfriendship, I'm like, wait, what
do we mean by.
Cultivating a good friendship inthe context of love, I think
Angie Long (06:34):
affection.
Right?
So even though what you'retalking about is maybe you get
together with these friends andmaybe you're not like talking
about a bunch of emotionalstuff, but my guess would be is
that there's some affection youhave for one another, right?
Like that you show up and youmaybe enjoy maybe even some
oftentimes, I think there'sthis, like holding someone else
(06:56):
in maybe like a high esteem.
I think those can be factors offriendship and maybe emotional
trust, and sometimes there are,I've sometimes there's Outward
circles of friendship, right?
And sometimes the smallestcircle of holds all of these
things.
And then there are varyinglevels of this.
But I just think of a general,like a wanting the best for one
(07:17):
another and being on eachother's side, it doesn't have to
be, I think some people think,Oh we don't like to do the same
things.
I actually don't think thatparticularly matters.
I think it's about how yourespond to one another that's
most important.
And there's a John Gottman is afamous sort of researcher in
marriage.
He's a, I think he was atherapist, but he does a lot of
(07:38):
research.
He has a marriage lab up in theSeattle area and he.
Essentially done research thatsays he can predict with 90%
accuracy who will divorce andwho will remain together in
marriages after he has them,come into this marriage lab and
he has them talk about some areaof conflict and then observes
how they respond to that.
(08:00):
And so he is come up with it.
And I think this ties in well,because he has said there's four
sort of deadly horsemen formarriages and that's contempt.
Criticism, defensiveness andstonewalling.
Now a brief quick stonewallingis what it sounds like.
I'm literally like putting up awall between you and I, and it
comes out of maybe because I'moverwhelmed and I'm just
(08:22):
withdrawing, shutting down, notengaging with you.
So that's what stonewalling is.
But, I think this is a niceexample because he's found out
these things are huge detrimentsto marriages lasting often lead
to divorce when they're mostprevalent.
And so I think you can flip thatand it connects with what
friendships is.
Like you often don't havecontempt and criticism for your
(08:45):
friends, or you're probably justlike they're going off the
friends list.
It's just,
Matt Boettger (08:49):
it's a lot easier that way.
You can.
That's why it's hard to it'slike we're alone with a friend.
Maybe that's not the right thingto do, but this is where I think
not to go down like a reallydeep rabbit hole of trying to
make terms be everything.
But one of the books I read along time ago, relationships
talk to that idea aboutsympathy.
I don't know if I put this onein the notes, but by the idea
that there's sympatheticrelationships, which is a real,
what he calls it like a rawmaterial of love, but it's just
(09:11):
a raw material and sympathy isjust basically like mutual
experience.
It's so Hey SIS, let's go to aMarvel movie and we're like,
okay, let's go.
So we go and we both have areally powerful fun experience.
We both experienced passively areally good movie.
We bond over the experience.
And so then we end up thinkingthat we're bonding and we are,
but it's very immature.
(09:31):
It has nothing, there's nothingactive about it.
It's just us.
We both happen to be in the sameenvironment.
Same time, both enjoy the samething.
And that was the bond.
It's still a bond, but it's notactive.
It's not like one pursuantanother the person.
And I feel like sometimes we getin this road of Oh, we
experienced somebody.
We both like each other, likeall of a sudden we're like, Ugh,
You feel icky and then you justdismiss them and move on.
You go, you find a new friend,so it seems like it's an easier
(09:53):
reality to deal with friendshipin that way.
But then my fear is when wetreat freshmen like that way,
then we get into relationshipsthat are love.
But then we feel like we have tostay in it.
But then we don't bring our agame.
We sit in this ah, you're icky,but then, and then we just stay
in that mode.
And I'm guessing that isprobably one of the elements of
that prevents us from movingfrom a deeper relationship and a
(10:14):
friendship, which so I'mwondering, like, how do you like
build a friendship with in thosesituations where you're feeling
really rubbed and in, in yourgo-to is maybe the Stonewall, or
I don't know what the otherones, you said, the other ones
where that's your defensemechanism, that's your safety
mode, right?
Or your self preservationdefensive, but now you're in
(10:34):
this relationship.
Yeah.
And now you want to like, try tomove into a place where ah, I
don't.
I can't cut this person off orobjectively.
I don't want to cut this personoff, but but my constant thing
is going to these particular.
Traits that aren't helping.
How on earth do I get myself outof that?
If in one of those relationshipsand begin to lean into possibly
(10:57):
a friendship, which you said haslike affection affection
Angie Long (11:00):
for someone, right?
It starts with.
You talk about this a lot.
I think like discovery, right?
Like I use the wordintrospection, like it starts
with awareness.
Well, to go, okay, how am Irelating to this other person?
And just, you can take a fewdays or a week and kind of
figure out how, Oh, wow.
(11:21):
As criticism in that remark, Ijust said it might've been
contempt.
Or we got a little defensivethere or I would drew like you
can, self-assess pretty easilynow what?
And just a little.
Sidebar is that oftentimes whatcouples, when they show up in
therapies, they want to tell mewhat the other person is doing
wrong.
And I encourage them not to go,don't go keep track of what your
spouse is doing wrong.
(11:41):
That is a dangerous road.
That's about blame that'scontempt criticism right there.
And so it's about, becomingintrospective and going okay.
If I, why don't I look at this?
How am I responding?
Especially around areas ofconflict.
And then once you recognize thatone, that in itself is powerful
just to go, Oh my gosh.
I didn't realize all the waysthis is showing up in my
relationship and what I'msaying.
(12:03):
And then you have tointentionally cultivate.
Something new.
Can I, when I noticed thatarise, I can choose not to act
on it.
I don't have to say the criticalthing.
I can, pause, be with that andchoose to say something
supportive.
And what we know is about changein general, like the best way to
change is through littlefrequent practices.
(12:24):
It's little and often it's.
Okay.
So it's not like I need some biginsight or some big
intervention.
It really is about going.
I'm going to bring my awarenessand my chin to this.
I'm going to look at myselfrather than through a lens of
what the other's doing wrong andthen go, what do I want to
invite in?
And inviting in.
(12:45):
Affection for the other issomething you can do.
And, we're designed to believewhat we tell ourselves.
So when you start talkingdifferently and start thinking
differently, you start feelingdifferently, you start acting
differently.
All these things are connectedand influence one another.
So even if you don't feel it,you can start the action and
you'll get to feeling at somepoint,
Matt Boettger (13:05):
this doesn't happen overnight.
Like a switch a couple thingsright.
Racing through my mind of thisidea of, well, okay.
Whenever I get triggered.
I'm going to default to my mostbasic instinct, which is
probably not, for some people,it might be a virtuous instinct
for other people's.
It might be.
I go back to my defensiveness.
So usually when I tell peopleabout trying to practice a
better sense of relationship orleaning into someone that
(13:27):
practicing in a moment of atrigger.
Is absolute futile and neverworks to your advantage.
So get to practice continuouslyoutside them in safe zone of
practicing, cultivating thesense of in the same way that I
probably got here, or we gothere in a certain way, in a
relationship, not because ofparticularly the unique.
Relationship, maybe that's partof it, but also a lot of things
(13:48):
that predated that go from yourwhole history and your past.
And so get this question oflike, when it comes to
facilitating relationships anddeepen relationships, you said a
Gottman can predict 90%accuracy, whether a marriage is
going to fail.
Now, where does that stuff comefrom?
How much of is it, how much ofit is nature and how much of it
is nurture?
Because I think we, I feel likewe live in this gap, at least me
(14:11):
and you, I don't know about likegeneration Z and that kind of
stuff, where.
There, we lived in a transitionperiod of our, the ideas of
marriage began to shift andchange.
And the values you mentionedthis time, how like the emphasis
on friendship and marriage, itsounds weird, but isn't it a
relatively new concept?
Angie Long (14:27):
I think it would be, I think it could be because I
think there are generationalthings and I'm thinking about
parents, say our parents, ourgrandparents, and maybe what
they learned about marriage.
And just the realities that,that they experienced.
I think for some sometimes Ithink maybe they maybe looked
more towards like I'm thinkingof the woman in the marriage,
(14:50):
looked more towards femalefriends for friendship, sort of
things.
And also another factor that Ithink contributes is.
Our parents and ourgrandparents, for example, got
married, much younger ages andwe did.
And so, they were, I wonder howthat just impacts your view of a
marriage.
I can't even imagine, justfinishing, being a teenager and
(15:11):
then you're, you're married andhow you navigate, what are my
beliefs and ideas about who myspouse is and how that's
supposed to look versus.
Friendship.
And so I think that there canbe, and probably is some
interesting information outthere about sort of general
generational differences aboutit, and if, I think if you go
(15:33):
back, I'm just thinking, youhave the fifties family what
was, you almost said stereotype,but it was true.
And so I'm just wondering if.
If people who are in those kindsof marriages, where maybe you're
not happy and maybe you don'thave a lot of choice to make
changes, then you know, I don'tknow how friendship gets brought
(15:55):
even into that.
I think back to when womencouldn't really work outside the
home or couldn't have their owncredit card, this was like,
Yeah, around when I was born,like this was, so this isn't
that long ago.
Okay.
And how would that impact, yourview?
Because there was a powerdifferential, and so how does
that impact friendship inmarriages that, that, that.
(16:17):
Existed or in let's still existtoday in many I'm sure.
Matt Boettger (16:22):
Yeah.
In different ways.
No, it blew my mind now.
I might pretty taken this toofar, of course, but I haven't
tended to exaggerate anythingbecause for the sake of
simplicity, but it reminds me ofKate.
We live in this era now bywhich, Oh my gosh, women have a
voice and it was so muchsimpler, epics and quotation.
When one person didn't have avoice.
And the other one, did you knowhow much easier to keep
(16:43):
stability in the marriage?
And now when you have two peoplewho are actually human beings
equals come into relationship,no wonder divorce is maybe like
increasing because now it'sharder because now you actually
have to deal with a relationshipversus a power struggle.
And that's the beauty of itright now, we have to learn.
So I feel like we're late to thegame there we're actually at the
(17:03):
cutting edge is believing thatwe're both equals.
In the relationship.
And so how do we come togetherand not feel okay.
When we're in a household we candisagree.
But as soon as we disagree, theman's decision overtakes, I've
heard these traditional models,right?
Well that, that's an easy way ofdoing things, but now when
you're coming together and no,we work together and we find a
solution it's a lot harder.
(17:24):
It's a lot harder to be able tonavigate this train and having
we need all the more we needresources because this is the
opportunity to cultivate.
Like a real friendship, and, andlean into each other's worlds
versus one person's worldbecomes the other person's
world, which I feel like thathas a tendency to be the case.
Angie Long (17:41):
Well, if that was your model and then you're in
something different, you get Youbump up against beliefs that you
never really looked at veryclosely, right?
Oh, I realized, I assumed this,I thought this, or I have this
belief about this.
And so that, that shows up andagain, if you're willing to.
(18:02):
Give it time and attention andexplore it.
That's the opening, the gap.
I'll use your word.
That's the opening for changefor introducing something new.
Matt Boettger (18:12):
And it just really is a kind of like I tell
people over and over that itwasn't until, marriage that I
realized My inability to havereally intimate friendships.
I think I realized, Oh, becauseof marriage.
Cause it keeps you in a positionwhere like you're forced to be
able to be with someone and youhave to be vulnerable or there
has consequences.
If you just keep, if you giveyour a lock of vault, there's
just consequences that areunhealthy.
(18:33):
It's easy.
It's like I said, to be able tobe in a friendship and ah, it's
just not working and then youleave, but this is a friendship
you're trying to cultivate.
You just don't leave.
And so then it really opens upyour the lack of friendship, the
lack of vulnerability andprevents new opportunities to
really grow in friendship.
So get into that you weretalking about before we got on
about models.
(18:53):
So I don't know how much you gotinto Gottman that because I'm
curious.
Cause he talks about You can, ifhe can, if he keeps any 90%
accuracy of determining whichrelationships fail and which
ones succeed, like what are someof the common denominators that
cultivate a really healthy.
Romantic relationship.
Angie Long (19:09):
So what he's saying, what he's looking for, so he
would have them talk about anarea of conflict and a quickest
side.
These are like, what do you callit?
I think I'm not sure the word touse.
It's perpetual conflicts, a lotof conflicts in marriages.
Aren't solvable.
They don't necessarily go on andon and on.
And so it's not that you have tosolve the conflict.
I think that's sometimes, I justwant to put that out there that
(19:33):
these often are recurrentarguments or conflicts.
So it's about how they talkabout him.
And he said in stable marriagesthat there was like A positive,
there was some sort of positiveeffect.
So there might be humor.
There might be understanding,showing up there's empathy.
There's just a positive, a wayof interacting that doesn't
(19:54):
involve contempt, criticism,defensiveness, and stonewalling.
And he went so far as to say instable marriages, that, that
ratio, he does this, the ratiosis five to one.
So for every criticism.
There's five positiveinteractions and by positive I'm
meaning, just this okay, I'mtrying to understand doesn't
(20:16):
mean I'm not mad and I'm allhappy, but maybe it just means I
inject some humor into it, or Itry to understand what the other
person's saying, or I reflectthat back to them.
But so it's a very differentfeel.
And then he said an unstablemarriages.
That ratio is 0.8 to one.
(20:36):
You're talking about almostequal, negative to positive sort
of interactions.
Again, talking about almostequal criticism, as opposed to a
positive reference towards yourspouse in some way.
That's a big
Matt Boettger (20:53):
difference.
Framing this for our listeners,they're like, okay, there's one
set.
There's those who aren't marriedin it, not a romantic
relationship.
In many looking to be in arelationship and they want to
have a successful relationship,which we're saying that, okay.
According to Brooks court, ineach acorn, Aristotle accord,
that friendship is, it's likethe foundation stone to really
cultivate a good romanticrelationship.
(21:13):
I was thinking about this idea.
Now I'm throw his pass.
I like, I love imagery.
Of this idea of, okay, wellthere's raw materials are all
relationship.
There needs to be desire.
Like you need clearly anyrelationships needs to, you need
a desire to want to be with theperson that's your own kind of
desire, your own self-interestthe other side.
And the raw material isGoodwill, like actually wanting
their wellbeing.
And then there also is sympathyby having a mutual experience
(21:34):
and it's powerful.
So all of these kinds of thingsare the raw material.
And I feel like romantic love islike the reason why we've been
making homemade bread lately.
So it's like that yeast, likethe, they put in the raw
material, like particularmaterial, they make it rise and
make it really bigger than thesum of it.
Parts, right?
Because romance is a prettyprofound and a big reality that
it feels almost, it feels almostmystical at times.
There's such a connection.
So deep spiritual that reallytranscends any kind of
(21:58):
friendship that you have.
And all of my only bestequivalent is that it's not like
romantic relationship becausethis is where I want to make
this caveat, because I feel likeworking in a college level, I
feel like sometimes they treat.
Really romantic relationships issomething other it's my
friendship.
And then there's something otheras if it has its own criteria by
which to measure something,because sometimes they skip the
(22:20):
friendship and go right into theromance.
The at least it'd besimultaneous at the friendship
is so powerful and needed andthat romance is that yeast or
whatever that 11th, it makes it.
Big and profound.
If th the question is how thenin one context of people who are
looking for a bromance in theirlife, how can they build good
habits to be able to have agood, solid friendship, or at
(22:43):
least try to pursue that in themidst of the romance?
Because.
I know this, like when I firststarted dating Jean, my world
revolved around Jan, I left allmy friends, all my
circumstances, and every wakingmoment was about hanging out
with her, which of course isnormal.
It's infatuation.
That's the first step.
But some of that can be a littlebit of a slippery slope because
then you don't get that chanceto really cultivate maybe a deep
(23:04):
friendship right on, becauseyou're not introducing them to
your world.
That was before Jan or before,which is part of your life and
vice versa.
So you don't get that chance tocommingle with all these other
life circumstances and be like,Oh, that's cool.
That's neat.
So in the context of singlelife, what are some good habits
that we can take to reallystrengthen their capacity, to
(23:25):
build a good friendship in thecontext of romantic
Angie Long (23:28):
love, the friendship?
Has to come first.
It can be that those romanticlove strong feelings are the
initial attraction.
And that makes sense.
I'm just thinking aboutoftentimes like one hallmark of
adolescence is intensity offeelings.
And so and there's that sameintensity when you're meeting
(23:50):
someone and falling in love.
And so these one, if we'reyounger, when that happens or
that's just how it works.
And so it doesn't mean I shouldbe friends first.
That's certainly a very solidfoundation to have, so I
wouldn't discourage it, but Idon't think it's necessarily a
negative or some sort ofpredictor if it's really
(24:10):
romantic love.
Initially, because that's oftenhow it looks and what happens.
I think what comes is.
I think a way to think aboutthis.
One thing I think is how younavigate areas of conflict is
this is where this could showup, right?
Because that's where a lot ofthese, I'll just say the uglier
stuff is going to present.
(24:30):
It's going to present itself.
And so being able to almostconsider how to do that
intentionally and to how to.
To have in the back of your mindthat it's, there's, it's not
either, or it's not romanticlove or friendship, but maybe
both.
And these are not mutuallyexclusive.
And shouldn't be as what we'resaying that, bringing in and
thinking about, having afriendship and in addition to a
(24:53):
romantic love, it's like afoundational piece, since Things
change.
We don't maintain that intensityof feelings in those early
stages of dating and meeting for50 years, I would personally
argue that what develops is alot more powerful in a lot of
ways, like a deeper, moreintimate love or someone sees.
(25:15):
All of you, even the not sopretty stuff and loves you
anyway and loves you with all ofthat.
I think that's more powerful,but and so this, recognizing
okay, there's something here Ican tend to and pay attention
to, which is, friendship.
And when I think of that it'sthis Positive sort of in your
(25:35):
corner affection, trust of oneanother.
And, and to bring that in arounddifferences, or for example,
what you said earlier is like,when you're triggered, that's
hard, but if you start to knowwhat triggers you and those
early signs of being triggered,there's an opportunity there.
(25:56):
To do something differently.
Whether it's simply okay, I'mhaving a strong reaction right
now and I want to be supportiveand I'm just going to go take a
10 minute break right now.
You know that's an option
Matt Boettger (26:08):
call to mind this, again, working on college
scenes is this idea where.
There's a, there's a falsereality that somehow romantic
love will eclipse all theshortcomings that I'm dealing
with life.
And I think that's one of thethings I'm like where I've, I
felt I've fallen prey to this inmy own life where you just, you
have such a romantic version ofromance, which is great, but.
(26:29):
It's a powerful reality, but itdoesn't overcome your weaknesses
just by default that you stillbring your weaknesses with you.
But in fact, believe it or not,it's going to magnify them down
the road.
It's going to magnify them inone way or another.
So working on a deep sense ofself-awareness I think what you
were saying is so incrediblyimportant that if your tendency
(26:49):
is to deeply avoid conflict todeeply, to not really share your
feelings, if that's yourdefault.
You're a gravitational force.
It's really good to be awarefrom that because it's not going
to go away.
When you enter into a romanticrelationship, now it'll be
ignored because the romance isso intense and so wonderful.
You'll forget about it.
You'll be all the moreagreeable.
(27:10):
Oh, whatever you want to do.
But then eventually your ownhumanity is going to take hold
and you're gonna be like, Oh, Iwant to be seen too.
Not that it's anybody's fault.
It may be just the environmentof the romance, but then great.
Guess what?
That baggage that we all have.
It's still there and it's goingto be magnified.
It has been magnified in thedating and a magnified if you
(27:30):
get married tremendously,because now, cause I'm thinking
of Renee Brown.
Of course we had to bring her inbecause she's wholeheartedness I
broke it down to these two areasthat this is, I feel like
there's two areas ofwholeheartedness in my brother's
tenderness.
And then there's vulnerability.
There is a tenderness which hasme working to be my response to
somebody else's with tenderness.
And that means, not Stonewall injudging that kind of stuff.
(27:52):
Can you be tender with someonewhen it's painful, right.
And be with them and take ontheir realities to, to help them
and assist them without losingyour own.
And then the other side isvulnerability.
That is like me showing up andbringing my stuff to the table,
even though it might hurt.
I think that is the strongcultivation that needs to be
practiced.
(28:13):
Outside the context and insidethe context, but at least be
aware of I have this tendency,it can vex well, anything.
Any friendship, definitelyromance that if you can't come
to the table and bring your truecolors, or at least begin to
show like, this is how I reallyfeel, because I'm afraid of
being judged.
This is not going to go away inromance.
This is going to be double.
Angie Long (28:34):
I'm just thinking like, how can you be vulnerable?
Yeah.
With someone, if you're gettingmore criticism back then
kindness, so to speak.
And so that's part of beingvulnerable.
Is there needs to be someemotional trust.
I won't, that person will hurtme with this.
They won't criticize me.
(28:55):
I won't be shamed or judged orand so in order to bring that.
In order to be able to like,bring that cause it takes an act
of courage, I think, to bevulnerable with one another in
it.
And personally I'm notvulnerable with people who I
know very vulnerable with thosepeople who I know are ready to
experience are going to becritical or turn it around on me
(29:17):
in some unhelpful way.
And so if you're, thattenderness and vulnerability,
it's if one's.
Being vulnerable than trying tomeet whether you use tenderness
or just, trying to at leastmaybe, maybe the, if you have a
tendency towards contempt andcriticism and thing, and these
things, then maybe the firststep is how do I.
(29:37):
Respond neutrally, so I'm not,and then from there I can maybe
start to add in, Oh, how do Irespond in w that is an empathic
response?
How do I respond in a supportiveway?
Can I bring humor in it?
Can I show that I understand.
Stand in these statements.
And there's, if we look atthings on a continuum, there's a
lot of space for movement andmaybe the best first step is
(30:01):
okay I'm just going to try torespond with, with, I'm going to
leave this and just try to beneutral if it's too great of a
jump to get all the way overhere, even that could make a
difference in movement andmomentum.
But, I think it's powerful to,be vulnerable there, there needs
to be some trust that I won'tbe.
Like hurt back, and again, if ithappens occasionally that's not,
(30:22):
it's not like this can neverhappen.
It's that if that happens, whatGottman is seeing that predict
stable marriages is that there'sfive other positive interactions
that it's like covering it orsurrounding it with love.
You know, if there's this onehurt, but the rest of it is all
affection, friendship, love,tenderness, whatever we want to
call it, that doesn't become thedominant narrative of the
(30:47):
exchange or even the
Matt Boettger (30:48):
relationship.
That's great.
It reminds me of that.
I just show you that pyramidthat I created.
I don't have that.
I put it into one of the notesthat I gave to you, but I called
the behavioral pyramid where itreally is like, there's the
result.
It's a great way.
I think it's helped me toreflect a little bit more of
like I had these results in mylife.
The things that I have, themaybe the not so good things in
my life, like where are theycoming from?
Why do I end up being in thesesituations and having these
(31:10):
kinds of results?
And that comes from my actions,but of course my actions come
from something else.
But come from those beliefs thatI have.
But those beliefs come from mythoughts and my thoughts come
from my emotions and my emotionscome from the base layer, which
is the experience.
And that experience is thefoundation by which we live our
life for better, for worse.
And so when we think about man,my relationship is not where I
(31:30):
want it to be.
It's not maybe the ideal, that'sthe result, that's the outcome.
But then where did it come from?
There's lots of good resourcesthat you're saying providing,
but at the same time, There'sthat experience and that
experience as if I'm in arelationship, experience of
level of criticism that'sdisproportionate to then you're
just not going to feel safe.
So then the result most likelythat you'd be in to close
(31:51):
yourself up and that's not theright way to go.
So my question to you, as webegin to close this up is, two
things.
If you have a tendency to bethat person.
That Stonewall, that judgment,that criticism.
What's one thing that somebodycan do starting this week to
begin to open their heart alittle bit more, to be able to
be a little bit lessstonewalling, a little bit less
(32:12):
judgmental towards that person.
And then the other question is,but if you're on the other side
and you're a victim of that, andyou're the one being stonewalled
being criticized.
So now you're in this vulnerablesituation at different level,
what's one thing they can do tohelp them get a sense of
creating a safe environment,which I think is the most
difficult, because this is thewhere you're more the recipient
(32:33):
of something to begin to createan environment, help create an
environment.
To provide better trust andfriendship.
Angie Long (32:41):
If we start with the person who feels like I'm
criticized, I just want toacknowledge, there are some
situations where I don't knowthat it would even be the best
first step to try to changethis.
If there's like substance abuseproblems or actual.
Emotional violence or physicalviolence.
Let's you know, I w I want toacknowledge it, that there, it
could be that that's the truth.
(33:01):
This isn't a safe relationship.
And then that is something thatis, I would encourage someone to
get some help for so that theycan navigate that.
So if we take out that that'snot the case, then how might
you.
If your spouse is potentiallyopen to it, you might say, I
feel criticized, given examples,when you say this I, messages
(33:22):
sharing a feelings, make arequest, very basic,
communication.
And, I'd like you to be moreaware of, w when you're
criticizing me and not do thatso much.
And then there's this, sothere's feedback of course, and
sharing, and then there's this.
If I make a change, like if Ieven started to look at, if I
was on that side of theequation, I started to look at
(33:44):
well, am I, where can I.
Increase friendship.
Where can I offer that?
Sometimes that, individualchanges have an effect on
bigger, institutions.
They have a a, can change itbecause when someone's meeting
you differently, it does changeone's behavior.
So again, if it's a safe yeah.
Place that, these other sort ofmore extreme things are not
(34:07):
present where you really areunsafe.
Then I think it's starting withgetting feedback.
Maybe go into counseling,getting some support, whether
that's couples or individual,and also starting to go, okay
what if I respond in new waysoften that starts to create a
change.
Now don't just do it once andthen go.
It didn't work.
This happens it's again, littleand often.
(34:28):
Small changes that are sustainedover time, that can have an
impact.
So that's what I would suggestfor the person on that side of
it.
The person on the other side hasto one, the first step in
change, you gotta acknowledgeit's a problem.
So you got to recognize yourown, what's coming across in, in
how you're communicating anddecide to work on that in order
to make a change.
(34:49):
And, you can do simple thingslike even.
Yeah.
As long as you can put likesomething little in your pocket,
maybe you have a little stone orsomething, or in every time you
touch it, that's a reminder tosay something kind to your
spouse.
Or like your child, for example,you if that's what you're
working on, so you can createsome sort of physical.
Reminder where, Oh, every time.
(35:11):
Yeah.
I, I have this reminder that'sin my pocket and I put my hand
and feel it.
Yeah.
It's my reminder to say that.
And so you just practice it anddon't wait to practice it in an
argument, because like you weresaying, when you're triggered.
No, no, no.
It's way harder to access doingthat.
And get there, but you can justsay, I'm going to, try shoot for
five things today to say thatexpress friendship, affection,
(35:35):
like a positive regard for theother person.
And I'm just going to practicethat behavior.
And that's powerful because overtime one, it will change what
happens between the two.
Of you and two, it will createthis new habit and likely crowd
out the older habit of contemptand criticism and those sorts of
Matt Boettger (35:58):
things.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
I think it's just it's all goingback to the discovery.
I think, like you said, westarted off this idea of Prance
it practicing discovery where Ithink where we fall prey of
losing friendship, as we beginto determine who they are and
say, this is who they are to meis like the sense of polarity of
this is who I think they are.
This is what they stand for.
And in putting these notboundaries, but like these
(36:19):
walls, like the stonewalling.
But flipping it into the senseof discovery of like always
looking to like, what'sbeautiful about them.
What's great about them.
And then not just allowing thatto be your own treasure, which I
think sometimes we can fall preyto, we think about it.
We don't get beyond that, butthen they'd be bold and share it
with them.
And tell them, this is why Ilove you.
This is why I appreciate you.
This is what I see in you.
(36:41):
And it's a small things.
And I think, one thing you and Iwere talking about that, I think
it'd be fun.
So we'll commit to, this is I'ma big journaler.
I love journaling.
And I think it's fun.
It's been really.
It helps me to get into aroutine.
Like I said, I think it's thesmall habits you were saying
that build over time issomething great.
This small things alive to leadto transformation.
And in my life, unless I havesome system in place, I just end
(37:02):
up not, I don't do itfrequently.
I do it here and there.
It's like a vacation, but I'mnot, it's not part of my rhythm
of life.
If it's not on the calendar, itdoesn't get done.
So having a little template andthen maybe you and I coming
together, create a small littletemplate of a few questions to
ask to provoke, wonder andcuriosity in discovery about the
person, your child, your spouse,your girlfriend, your boyfriend
(37:24):
may be to help facilitate.
Discovering that reallybeautiful person in front of you
to cultivate a diff moreprofound friendships.
I know some people can be in sodeep.
They're thinking they'relistening.
I can't see anything.
I don't hear anything.
I don't see anything I give up.
But don't give up.
It's there.
And there's nobody on God'sgrace, outside of the, what you
(37:45):
were saying says violence, thesekinds of things.
That's a whole differentterritory, but in a neutral
terrain of just dysfunctionalpeople, trying to work together
and build a relationship.
It just takes habit andsometimes asking the same
question over and over and inlean discovery.
The first few days, weeks, theremay be very little on that
paper, but one day the font isgoing to be open and you're
(38:08):
going to see things like, Oh mygosh, I didn't recognize that
small thing.
She, every day she makes thebed.
I never do it and I never oncethanked her for it.
That's it's a little, it's alittle crack that begins to form
and turns into this huge,beautiful crevasse of like
really good, beautiful thingsyou see in another.
So you and I will commit to it.
So if you go to living thereal.com/friendship, You'll be
(38:30):
able to get that littledownload.
We'll do it as soon and get itsmall little template going to
give
Angie Long (38:33):
to you.
Add something there because Ilike what you're saying.
It's it's easy to notice thefaults and others, or what's,
what's wrong and intentionallyplacing your attention and
looking for the positives, whatyou value, what you appreciate,
what you enjoy is what I hearyou talking about.
And I think.
(38:54):
Like this template, I wouldalmost encourage it to be more
introspective and yeah.
How do I show up as a friend?
How do, how does that personsitting across from me, my
friend, while we're eatinglunch, view me, what do I think
they value?
And is that what I want toconvey?
And so it is about one, can Iappreciate the other instead of
(39:17):
focusing on their fault and theintrospective part is what's my
Either intention or valuesaround friendship.
And am I showing up in the wayas a friend that fits for me
with all of that?
That's great.
Matt Boettger (39:33):
This is why we, this is where we have you on.
We're going to do that.
It's great.
So we're but add introspection alittle of both.
It's going to be awesome.
I'm going to start using it assoon as created.
So I'm excited.
So good.
Live in the real.com/friendshipSnagit.
My last question to you, thisis, we didn't talk about this,
but this is like the middleground.
I'm just curious.
I had.
Somebody come talk to me aboutthis.
And I think this is more commonthan the other things we talked
(39:53):
about, and that is your innerrelationship by which it's a
good relationship.
You feel good, except for thehusband, just doesn't like to
share their emotions whatsoever.
They just don't.
But they feel like they're in agood relationship.
They wish they could have that,but they're okay.
Letting it go because that'sjust how he is now.
Is that okay?
And what do you do in thosesituations and be like it's a
good relationship, but I wish Ihad that.
(40:16):
And I've asked him a couple oftimes to share, and he just says
good or whatever.
He doesn't say anything.
And he just allows it to be thatterrain.
Is that just okay?
Or do we, like, how do we helpsomeone like open that door a
little bit?
It's a good relationship.
Angie Long (40:29):
I've heard that a lot.
Yes.
Where maybe one doesn't really.
Talk about emotions and it tendsto be associated with men more
than women.
And so I think there's abalancing of acceptance, like
knowing who this person is andmeeting them there.
Well asking for.
Changes if those really are,would you think benefit or
(40:53):
valuable?
And so I don't know that it's aneither or answer, or I would say
bringing some of those and notin a giving up acceptances in
the giving up okay, it's aboutgoing, I know this, my partner
loves me and accepting that,this is how he engages.
But it's also, there are alsothings you can do again, it
(41:16):
requires both people to want tochange this.
It that can maybe lead to morecomfort.
One thing we did as a familythat our son who's now 18 w has
always loved is at some point wejust started doing our highs and
lows around the dinner table.
And you just say okay, what'sthe best part of your day?
High, the low and.
(41:37):
I just did it once or a fewtimes, and then our son just
loved it and we had to do it allthe time.
He still does it aftervacations.
What's high and low for youguys, just so we all know, but
it's interesting.
Like even that in where we allare all talkers in our family
and we share this is not anissue for us, but what I learned
things and I learned things Iwouldn't have.
(41:58):
Known if we hadn't had this,because you forget, it's dinner
time now, and that happened at9:00 AM and I'm actually over
and done with it.
But when you reflect back, so Ido think there are practices
that maybe don't feel quite as.
Maybe frightening to someonewho's not used to sharing that
you can start to build apractice and a language around
sharing.
(42:19):
In other ways.
There's games now, questionsthat have question prompts that
you can pull one Oh tabletopics, right?
You can have that on your dinnertable and pull on and just,
maybe especially if this issomething that person wants to
change and is willing to change.
Can join in.
So I think it's a balance of,accepting bringing acceptance
(42:41):
and then being able to go, isthis something we can look at
and try to create some changein?
And ideally both people say yesin that or get to that and then
maybe find out how to go aboutdoing that.
Matt Boettger (42:54):
Yeah, I love it.
Rejoice in the crack, you know,not to cry.
So people get a lot of confusedabout what crack we're talking
about, but rejoicing the crack.
And there's this one thing Isent you in, in, on this, that
this one part.
It said ego based relationships.
I love this.
He must love me in the exact wayI need heart-centered
(43:16):
relationships.
I learned to honor your uniqueways of loving me.
Now.
I think there's room for thereobviously room for both of these
things that there's people whohave needs and you need to help
fulfill those needs.
And that also looking by with,the unique ways by which people
are loving.
There was this one, Facebookpost from some girl from high
school.
I loved it.
She said for decades anddecades, she has been looking to
(43:37):
have her husband fulfiller andall of her needs.
And it wasn't until there's ahandful of years ago that she
began to see, Oh my gosh, I'mthinking of this wrongly, all
the along.
She's been loving me in thesetremendous ways that have been
just not seen.
And they just didn't fit mylittle cliche, my little bubble
of what it means to be loved.
And now her heart is just blownopen.
So again, lean into discovery,finding those ways by which
(43:59):
people really do love you.
It doesn't mean that's theexclusive way, but it helps to
find that little crack to openup and find the beauty in that
person.
And then allow that to expandbigger and bigger, hopefully for
a more profound and beautifulcreation.
Yes.
All right.
Angie Long (44:14):
Thanks.
Thanks for having me on, I wastalking about this stuff with
you.
Take care.
All right.
Thanks for having me.
Matt Boettger (44:22):
I really hope you enjoy this episode with Angie
long and myself and hisconversation about how we can
establish deeper foundations offriendship in the context of
romantic love.
I know I needed this and I'msure at least a handful of you
really needed this episode aswell.
And I.
Really hope you snag this freetemplate to be used as a way to
(44:43):
cultivate a recurring sense ofawe and wonder with the people
around you that you love mostdearly.
Now, of course, this isexcluding those difficult
situations where you're involvedin relationships that revolve
around substance abuse andphysical violence.
And for that, I ask you toplease seek professional help.
But for the other circumstancesin life, by which we just have a
(45:04):
tough time seeing the people infront of us, seeing that real
person being stuck in regret andresentment and frustration and
judgment.
But overcoming that and seeingthe profound beauty of the
person before us.
I hope I hope this helps you tohave a more deeply, real
(45:25):
relationship with the people youlove most.
Oh, and by the way, if you couldhear a little rug rats in the
background of the episode, Itruly apologize, but that is my
real life.
And sometimes the middle of theconversation.
Our little boys get out of theirnap times and they run
downstairs and we have beautifulhardwood floors, and I record in
(45:46):
the basement.
So there you have it.
You heard probably a number ofsounds.
I hope you enjoyed them andwe'll see you next episode.
Or without the Rugrats takecare.
Bye-bye thank you for listeningto this episode of living the
real.
If you want to check out moreinformation, go to living the
real.com and sign up for mynewsletter.
If you want to support thispodcast, you do that at
patrion.com/ltr as well as onetime.
(46:10):
Payments at Venmo and PayPal inthe show notes.
See you all next episode.
Take care.
Bye.
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