Warren & Christine: Love Beyond Bars

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Warren and Christine's love story defies every expectation of what a prison relationship "should" be. Their connection began with a simple but profound question on a pen pal website: "When was the last time you had a great conversation with someone?" Christine, running a pen pal service from Germany, was immediately struck by the thoughtfulness behind Warren's words—a refreshing departure from the typical messages she received.

What started as emails and letters quickly evolved into daily phone conversations that have continued uninterrupted for over six years. They speak multiple times daily, sharing everything from mundane moments to profound realizations, creating an extraordinary intimacy despite the physical distance between a German household and an Ohio prison cell.

The remarkable aspect of their relationship isn't just its existence despite barriers—it's their refusal to accept limitations. "We've never looked at each other as being in a prison relationship," Warren explains, describing how they hold each other to the same standards of honesty, accountability, and growth they would in any relationship. This foundation allows them to navigate conflicts with unusual grace and wisdom.

Their approach to disagreements reveals the depth of their connection. They never end conversations in anger and have developed specific phrases to help de-escalate tense moments. When Christine feels herself becoming upset, Warren gently says, "We ain't doing that," instantly diffusing tension. Their philosophy is beautifully simple yet profound: when facing challenges, you can either wait for your partner to catch up, go back for them, or carry them until they can stand on their own—but leaving is never an option.

Beyond their present connection, Warren and Christine have created a shared vision for their future—planning to move to Egypt once Warren completes his supervision. Christine has expanded Warren's worldview beyond America's borders, transforming his mindset from merely surviving to truly living. Their story proves that when two minds with different backgrounds come together, entirely new possibilities emerge that neither could have imagined alone.

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(00:21):
joined by my co-host, dj, whojust so happens to also be my
awesome sauce wife.
I also have a couple of closefriends that are still
incarcerated who will be regularcontributors, and together we
will bring you the real ondealing with the criminal
justice system from multipleangles.
A lot of what we share will bereal experiences from both
currently and formerlyincarcerated people like myself,

(00:43):
along with current events thataffect those impacted by the
legal system.
So thank you for tapping in,thank you for sticking with us
from season one.
Now let's get to it.

(01:04):
Hey everybody, welcome back toanother episode of Locked on the
Legacy.
I'm your host, remy Jones, andtoday I have a very special
episode for you guys.
Today, warren will be joiningus, but with a little bit of a
twist, we will also be joined byChristine, and for those of you
who, of course, don't knowChristine or haven't heard of

(01:26):
Christine, christine is Warren'slady.
They are a rock for each otherand I'm telling you, man, like
their story is so insightful andimpactful, inspiring, that
we've always said, like, man, wegot to have this episode where
you guys just tell us aboutyourselves and what it takes for

(01:48):
you guys to be together andwhat it means for you guys to
help each other through thisjourney, and so it's long
overdue, but it's finally here,and I also, before we get to it,
want to say thank you to bothWarren and Christine for being
so vulnerable and so open bysharing this part of their

(02:09):
relationship with all of us,because they thought it was
important too.
So, without further ado, let mesay welcome, warren and
Christine.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Welcome Warren and Christine.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Hello.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
This is a bit strange , eh.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, talk about I wasn't going to be here at 2.30.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
I told you, I was going to be here.
She was asking whether I wasgoing to make it on time.
I told her I was going to behere at 2.30 here today.
Well, how do you know I'll bethere?
You gonna make it?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
yeah, I knew you'd come, okay okay, I'm the only
one that was uh late.
I was actually um down herewatching a movie, and then I
looked at my watch.
I was like oh crap, and so Iran upstairs.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
You better not forget , otherwise I would come over
there personally to kick yourass.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Oh, I do not want that problems.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
I do not want to smoke.
Oh, it's so nice to talk to youguys.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
I'm glad to have you both here and.
I'm glad it's working out asfar as technical.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I can hear you nice and clear,and that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Great, I got this fancy new piece of equipment.
Great, I got this fancy newpiece of equipment.
It runs my phone call throughthe soundboard and then I just
talk to the microphone.
So I'll be sure to give you allthe details.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
That's a bit nice, isn't it?
It is yeah, so how do you wantto go forward with this?

Speaker 1 (04:06):
You know, I don't know, you guys are such big
deals that I'm all nervous now.
I never be nervous to talk toanybody.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
What are you like?
You're not nervous.
You're the coolest dude I'veever come across.
Oh, that's such a complimentWhoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Well, beside you, of course.
Okay, there's such a compliment.
Whoa whoa, whoa whoa.
Well beside you, of course.
Okay, there you go there you goOkay, put it out there, Dan Put
it out there.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
I mean, we're so much alike that you know I would
take that as a compliment comingin a second a close second.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, yeah, of course , absolutely, and there's miles
and miles of space between theone and the two.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Absolutely, there you go, butter me up, butter me up,
all right.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
So I guess, to start it off, we'll have you introduce
yourselves, or maybe I'llintroduce you.
These are my two good friends,mr Warren and Miss Christine.
For those of you who don't know, of course everybody knows
Warren.
He has been a regularcontributor to the podcast.
And Chris, of course, is hisother half Better half, I don't

(05:20):
know.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
We'll leave that up for debate.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, that's it.
But the one compliments the twoand the two shall be one and
there we go, that's all we'llleave it at.
But so we know a lot about you,warren, and we know about you.
Know you're always on the move,you're always trying to help
people, you always got your handin something.
But what people don't know isyou know, even the strong folks

(05:44):
got to have somebody to keepthem strong right, keep them
grounded, absolutely.
You tend to have that same mind, that, uh, that over analytical
mind, and often need people tobring us back home.
You know, bring us back down toearth.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
And so that's what Christina is for you yes,
absolutely, she, she definitelyis.
Is is for you yes, absolutely,she definitely is my balance.
It's strange because a lot ofpeople always say to me that
they never see me frustrated orthey never see me lose control,
or it's like I'm always calm andI say yeah, because I give it
all to Christine my crazy, mywow, my frustration.

(06:27):
I give it all to her.
So by the time I'm done withher and bleed her ears, then I'm
ready to be calm with the worldagain.
And I always give the analogyof the duck on the water, where
you see the duck sliding alongsmoothly but you see underneath,
the feet are battling likecrazy.
That's normal.
But Christine is my calm, sheis the place that I go to when

(06:50):
everything else is having me.
At that tipping point I cantalk to her and by the end of
the call I know I'm going toreach that calm place again,
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
That's a good compliment and where he is, like
you said, the logical personand I'm always you know, he's
always how can I say it?
I used to call himself iRobotwhen I first met him and yeah,

(07:21):
he is very logical.
I'm the opposite, I'm moreemotional.
Yeah, so we complement eachother greatly in that aspect, I
think, where I am much more atouchy-feely kind of person and
I am highly emotional, as Warrensaid, and that brings a nice

(07:41):
balance every time.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, I can tell you guys from my experience that I
am very much the rationalthinker in my relationship and
Debbie is very much theemotional one, and it does bring
great balance.
You know, somebody can alwaysbe the one that takes the lead
in different situations, whichis very much necessary because,

(08:08):
especially with parenting, youknow, we have different kids,
different personalities, and I'malways like teach the lesson
and she's like calm down.
You know, sometimes it's notabout the lesson.
We got to check on the personRight and I'm like I'll be in
another room when the lessonneeds to be taught.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, but the lesson still needs to be taught.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
So yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Well, first off.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
I would like, having gotten a chance to meet you,
christine, in person we'll talkmore about that later chance to
meet you, christine, in person?
We'll talk more about thatlater.
I gotta say how thankful I amfor your presence in his life as
a good friend.
It makes me happy to know thatyou're there.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Oh, thank you.
That's a nice thing to say.
Thank you so much.
Juan tells me that all the time, but then he's biased so I
can't open it.
Sometimes I think you know, isthat really what you mean?
But thank you so much for that.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
So I don't know which one of you guys want to go
first, but I got a bunch ofquestions.
I mean, we all got a bunch ofquestions and I know that they
can benefit everyone.
So I would like to know how didyou guys meet.
Tell me about how yourrelationship started and how has
it evolved over the amount oftime.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Right, okay, my daughter and me, many years ago
we started to run a penthouseservice.
We started to run a pen palservice because I was in contact
with I had 10 friends on deathrow in America and I've been in
contact with them for many, manyyears.
And my daughter also had 10friends in prison in America and

(09:57):
when her friends found outabout, told their cellmates
about their friendship, they allwanted to get pen pals oh, can
she find me somebody?
And so we came up with thisidea to start a pen pal service
and that's what we did.
We ran it for about four and ahalf years and during that time

(10:25):
we were also in contact withmany other pen pal services on
the internet and we allexchanged with each other
whatever, whoever, we had on ourbooks.
And one day this picture came upwith this beautiful post.
And to tell the truth, I wasn'tlooking so much at the picture.

(10:48):
It was the words of the postthat touched me deeply.
It was so different to whatnormally.
You know the guys who were intouch with us.
They used to write us and say,right, this is what I want to
say to women, to introducemyself on my pen, on my pen pass
.
And it was always the same Yomama, what's up?

(11:10):
How's it hanging, All that kindof stuff.
And yeah, you get kind of numbto that kind of introduction.
And then all of a sudden therewas this introduction, so
completely different toeverything else I've ever
experienced.
I thought, wow, that is so nice, and then I closed it down.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
It was in a form of a question.
I started it as when was thelast time you had a great
conversation with someone?

Speaker 4 (11:41):
Yeah, with someone.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
The whole ad was about the feel, the texture, the
wanting of having thisconversation again and again,
and again.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
And so I went about my business and it wouldn't let
me go.
I thought I need to find thatadvert again.
I couldn't find it.
I looked for it for two days.
It was gone and I couldn'tremember what website it came
from.
Oh, I was so frustrated.
And then, all of a sudden, onthe third day, oh, there it was

(12:17):
again.
Oh, my goodness me, yeah, thatwas it.
I took a screenshot of it and Ithought I'm not going to let it
go and I did something I'dnever done.
I wrote an email and then, as Isent that off, I thought maybe
I should write a letter, becausehe said in the post you know,
there's nothing nicer thanwriting letters.

(12:38):
So I wrote a letter and sentthat off, but obviously that
takes about 10 days to go get toAmerica.
And then, all of a sudden, thenext day I got an email back and
he was very happy to hear fromme.
And yeah, that was it.
The rest is history.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
We've been in touch with him ever since.
Let me give the listeners somebackground information.
Okay, so, first, christine isfrom Germany.
Second, there's a large age gapbetween Christine and myself
and I remember when I was on thepen pile site, I was writing
and I specifically told themthat I didn't want to hear from

(13:22):
anyone under 40.
I kept getting 20 and30-year-old responses and it was
clearly where 20 and30-year-olds were mentally and
where I was at mentally.
We were just in two differentplaces.
But I had noticed that they hada group from NASA come in and

(13:42):
they were a young woman fromNASA and an older woman from
NASA.
But I connected more with theolder woman and then we had a
reentry fair and again there wasa young woman who came in and
there was an older woman whocame in and I connected more
with the older person and Istarted telling myself the
problem that I'm having is I'mfishing in the wrong pond.
I'm not dealing with the agegroup, the appropriate age group

(14:03):
.
Now, this is what I knew priorto meeting Christine, and so
when Christine wrote me, she andI had that same kind of
connection.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
And she didn't want to tell me how old she was at
first, but she eventually toldme she did.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
She eventually told me, she eventually told me and I
thought I said it strangebecause I'm realizing that I
don't really have a lot ofconnection or things in common
with younger women.
It's the older women that I'mable to connect to more and once

(14:43):
I alleviated that fear in herme and her just been rolling
ever since, and that was back in2018.
And we've been going strong forthe last six and a half years.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yes, and yesterday we were there.
That half year was up See.

Speaker 4 (14:55):
I just remember that Six and a half years.

Speaker 3 (14:58):
That's right yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
That is great man.
It's interesting, though, that,even though technology is
limited inside of prisons, youguys met, just like anybody else
nine days man on the Internet.
Yeah, if I had to take a wildguess, I'd probably say, like

(15:22):
85% of people nine days that are, you know, maybe 40 and under
are probably meeting on theinternet of some form.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
So you know, same old thing, man.
No shame in it at all.
I mean, I met my wife on theinternet.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, and one of the one of the things that, jeremy,
is that Christine and I havenever looked at each other as
being in a prison relationshipand we felt that limited us in a
lot of manners.
We hold each other to the sameresponsibility, same
accountability and even treateach other the same way as if I

(16:04):
was home.
And the reason why that'simportant to me to bring that
out to your audience is becausethere were certain things that
she and I had went through withother individuals in
relationships that we toldourselves that we were no longer
going to settle for, and itdidn't matter whether I was out

(16:25):
there or in here, whether noneof that mattered to us.
There was still foundational,core things that we said we get
involved with the next personthis person will have, and
neither one of us was lookingfor a relationship.
She wasn't looking for arelationship, I wasn't looking
for a relationship, I was justlooking for someone that would
be in my corner.
So when I went to the paroleboard, they could say, listen, I

(16:45):
know this man, I know this mancharacter, I'm going to speak up
for him.
That's all I was looking for.
And she was looking for someoneto have a good conversation
with.
And 18 days after we met eachother.
We just knew that this is aperson I wanted to be with, and
we always said that there'sstill criteria you have to meet.
You have to be honest, and wealways said that there's still
criteria you have to meet.
You have to be honest, you haveto have integrity, you have to

(17:06):
be able to commit, you have tobe someone that I can grow with.
You have to be someone I like.
It was that all the requirementswere still there and we told
them if you cannot do this,that's cool, we can be cool.
We don't have to do anythingelse.
I respect your choice, yourespect my choice.
But the idea that we didn'tcome in here thinking and some
people still thought you know,but you guys ain't really in a
relationship because you're allin prison and you don't really

(17:27):
know what it's like, that's whatthey think.
We didn't approach ourrelationship that way.
We approached it in the samestandard.
I would hold to you out here,I'm going to hold to you in
there, and that is one of thereasons why we're so strong in
what we do and why we have theconversations, reasons why we're
so strong in what we do and whywe have the conversations and

(17:47):
we plan our futures based on notsomething that's in a fantasy,
but something that we're livingright now.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
Well, I know from my personal experience, especially
my experience with pen palwebsites in there, I know that a
lot of guys in there approachthe website as in it's going to
alleviate some fantasy and Iheard you mention that Right so

(18:16):
pretty quickly it usually goesto a sexual conversation and I
don't know if that has to dowith how much time they've done
or how much they're doing, but Iknow there was a point in time
where I didn't want to talkabout anything sexual anymore.
I was like bro, I want a deeperconversation.

(18:37):
I wanted somebody who wouldjust let me break out the big
words or deep concepts and wecould have a great conversation.
And I remember thanking peoplewho provided that for me and
they felt so awkward.
I was like man, just thank youfor this conversation, like you
don't know how.
To be honest, man, because ofprison, I started talking to

(18:58):
myself a lot.
Yeah, because I couldn't talkto other people, you know,
especially not about anythingemotional, about anything on a
deep thought level.
Me and Warren had many, manydeep conversations and it was
like we don't have many outletsfor that, you know, and we would
have to catch ourselves becausewe just be seeing each other in

(19:19):
passing, and if we didn't likebe mindful, we'd be standing
there for 20 minutes like, ohman, I'm supposed to be going to
this thing, and so it's notsurprising to me that you guys
connected on that level and thatother people were shocked or in
denial of it.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
You know, when we first met I need to quickly come
in and say something I workedin prison in england, in london,
for six years and I I was soaware my office was on the wing
with the men.
I saw the men.
There was 300 odd men on thatwing and I was in contact with
them all every day, throughoutthe day, and I saw the way they

(20:04):
were oh, I've got've got a newwoman.
You know, I'm writing to her,she's sending me money, blah,
blah, blah.
So I was used to all theseshenanigans that went on in the
prison.
And then when we did the penpal site, you know, we were in
touch with all our customers viaemail on a daily basis and they
were always saying, oh, youknow what?
Yeah, this woman, oh, she's hot, I'm going to write to her,

(20:26):
chris, can you get me on?
And all this.
And so when I first met Warren,I thought, yeah, I need to have
a look at this first, because Iwas very what's the word?
I was very cautious initially.
Yeah, that's another word.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so I approach this all.

(20:49):
No, let's see how it pans out.
And I just got deeper and Ikept thinking, oh, I'm not sure
if I can even go there.
Oh, I'm not sure this is.
Oh, that, that was a dailything with me and yeah, we we
had some hurdles to climbinitially.
Like Juan said, it was hardyeah.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's good though.
So I know that obviously,communication has, like media is
totally important to you guys.
You know, is it phone calls, isit letters?
I know the value of a letter,so I want to know which do you
guys gravitate more towards?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Well, when we first started, Christine used to write
emails and letters.
She was sweet like that, butonce we started talking on the
phone I was like I don't needthem anymore.
I want my phone calls.
You know I am a person that'sconstantly writing emails and
letters.
I have been.
I'm lying, it's phone calls,Emails are too slow.
Christine and I talk everysingle day.

(21:53):
We've been talking every singleday since 2018.
And then she was coming overhere to visit me at least once a
year, and then COVID hit and so, when her visits were
restricted, we started doingvideo visits.
So every single day we talkfirst thing in the morning for
an hour and a half, and then atnight we talk for two hours

(22:14):
every day, and on the weekendswe talk for an hour and a half.
We have an hour and a halfvideo visit Saturday and Sunday.
Saturday and Sunday and she andI have been doing the video
visits since COVID, and we'vebeen talking every day that many
times since 2018.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
That's awesome, man.
Now I want to put some morebackground out there.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
That is absolutely necessary yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
I know back in the earlier years of my 10 years in
prison, man phone calls was hard, you know, especially if you
weren't like calling somebodylocally.
This is before the days of.
You know the Google phonenumbers and the.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
They're not necessary for overseas calls.
Globaltel or GTL, I will givethem this credit.
They've dropped prices on thephones.
They reduce the prices sogreatly that you can talk to a
person um affordably.
So right now a call is like 33cents for 30 minutes and, oh my

(23:20):
goodness, christine's all theway across, all the way across
the ocean.
So she gets, she has a localnumber.
So our calls is only 33 cents acall for half an hour.

Speaker 1 (23:32):
Now.
I got to put some perspective tothat, because when I talk about
how phone calls were expensiveback in the beginning of my bit,
it used to cost me, I think,$18 to call my dad in Virginia
and it was only 15 minutes $18for 15 minutes back then and if
it was local it was like $7.

(23:54):
So $7 was a lick because if youwas calling somebody, even on
the other side of the state, itwas a $10 call.
So when the Google numbers andall that first started, you know
we had to get them because $7 acall was a steal.
And of course I don't know.
I think it was like a what wasit?

(24:14):
Like a class action lawsuit orsomething that caused the phone
calls to drop.
Because the average person, ifyou got no outside help, you
make 17, 18 dollars a month offthe state for your job as you
work in prison.
So obviously that was not fairbecause you still got to get
your hygiene, any food items youcan afford to get.
So I'm really glad to hear 33cents for 30 minutes, because
you still got to get yourhygiene, any food items you can

(24:35):
afford to get and whatnot.
So I'm really glad to hear 33cents for 30 minutes.
That's amazing.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, I was just going to say when we first
started, video calls used tocost $9, you know Now they only
cost $4 something.
So that was such a blessingthat they cut all those prices
down.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
And it's necessary, especially for relationships
like ours, where communicationis so key, and she and I need
that constant communication.
I tell her our communication isthe lifeblood of our
relationship.
Without that we cannot survive.
And so, yeah, the fact thatthey, they, have made it

(25:20):
affordable and it's stillexpensive, but it's, it's
something that, that, that thatwe're capable of doing.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, you guys are have been a great rock for each
other.
You know I'm sure you each gotyour own stuff going on and
you're there for each other indifferent ways, but who's being
there for you, who's the supportsystem for you guys in all of
this?

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Honestly, we are each other's support system.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
I mean, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
I have my family, you know my family there.
But my family tells Christineall the time we're glad you're
there for him.
They're like.
I remember my sister had oncetold me the guy got upset
because you know she was havingbabies and boyfriends.
And I'm like you know I alwaysbeen, you know I always been the
center of your attention.
And she told me.
She said well, warren, you haveto understand.
At one time you were the maincharacter in my life, but now

(26:18):
you have fell back into asupporting role, still important
, but not the main focus.
And that's kind of how myfamily sees me.
Christine is the main characterin my life.
They're just there to supportus.
And so every single thing thatgoes on in my life, every up,
every down, every conflict,every situation, I go to

(26:40):
Christine and I remember tellingguys here, like I talked to
this woman about everything,they were like oh man, you ain't
supposed to talk to your womanabout everything.
Man, you know it's going tocause friction, it's going to
cause fighting.
And I told her.
I said I'm not afraid to fightwith her, I'm not afraid to have
an argument with her, afraid tofight with her, I'm not afraid
to have an argument with her.
Those things aren't strongenough to break us.
But I know that any single timethat I have any dilemma, any

(27:02):
single time I have frustration,I can go to her and I know I'm
going to feel like it's going tobe alright or we're going to
work through it together.
So, we have become one.
Go ahead, Eddie.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
The same goes for me.
I don't have any support really, you know, because it's always
the same what You're writing toa prisoner.
Are you crazy?
You're mental, all this kind ofstuff.
So I have no support.
So Warren is definitely my onlysupport in that aspect and

(27:37):
whatever I go through in the day, you know buckling through by
myself, I know the moment hecalls it's all going to be okay.
He's been my rock and he willcontinue to be my rock and
that's wonderful.
I mean don't get me wrong I metsome of his family in my last
visit to Ohio and I'm in touchwith his sisters and his mom,

(27:57):
and so that's wonderful.
But ultimately, at the end ofthe day, it's just him and me
and it's just good like that,you know that is something that
I can say.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I agree with and, being from a perspective of a
person that has been there foryou and seeing now that Chris'
presence is in the picture, Ican't say that you don't come to
me for a lot of stuff, no more,man.
And I'm not offended, like Iknow some people might get

(28:34):
offended by that and be likedang bro, what happened?
Like stuff changed ever sinceshe came in the picture.
But I can honestly say, likeman, I'm glad that you have her
and I've had the struggle oftrying to convince her that I'm
here for her too.

(28:54):
So, no matter what, I'm alwayslike, hey, hey, chris, you can
reach out for me.
And she's like, oh, but I don'twant to bother.
And I keep trying to convinceher like no, no, I'm a support
person too.

Speaker 3 (29:05):
Right, we're on the same team yeah, but you also
need to understand, jeremy.
I hadn't met you personally andit was hard for me to do that,
because I know how peoplereacted, you know, when I came
and asked and oh yeah, this isgoing to last anyway, and how

(29:27):
long is this going to go on?
I needed to get to know you andonce I met you, everything
changed.
Once I met you and Debbie, itwas wonderful.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Hello.
Welcome back, sir.
Hello, Hello.
So yeah, we were talking abouthow Christine didn't want to
accept my support as genuine atfirst.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
And so you know it took some convincing.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
I didn't want to bother you too much.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
It took some convincing, but I'm glad that
you came through, and I thinkmeeting you in person did have a
lot to do with it.
The last time you came to visitOhio, I drove up there to visit
Warren and got to meet youafterwards, so that was awesome.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
The most beautiful thing of that day was when you
and Debbie took me back to theAirbnb where I stayed and I said
would you like to come in?
And you both went yes, we wantto spend some more time with you
.
Oh, wow, that was so wonderful.
That was a really great giftwhat you gave me that day, and I
was so grateful to you both forthat.
That was so wonderful.
That was a really great giftwhat you gave me that day, and I

(30:39):
was so grateful to you both forthat.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
It was just wonderful , that's all, and the fact that
you know what you and Debbieoffered Christine.
Again, I never really had agood idea of what a friend was
until you, like, I've hadindividuals who were friends.
I didn't really, I didn'treally grasp the concept because

(31:03):
most of my most of my friendswas based off a necessity we
were in the same place, so Iguess we was friends or we were
doing the same thing.
Hey, guess we're buddies.
But it was never to the pointto where I knew that an
individual was there simplybecause they wanted to be there.
And I told you this multipletimes.
The fact that you went out yourway to make me a part of the

(31:24):
family, to keep me involved, toshare your life, to share your
wife, to share your childrenwith me, that was something that
already put you head andshoulders over other people who
love and care and concern thatyou and Debbie showed Christine
when she came over here.
I'll forever be grateful to youguys for doing that for her,

(31:45):
not because you had to, butsimply because that's just the
kind of people you are and it'sgood for Christine that I'm
connected to.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
I mean, to be honest, it was just a matter of, you
know, you're my brother and thisis your lady, so automatically,
there's no, I don't know whatanybody else provided, whether
it was skepticism or you know,anything like that.
It was just like, hey, what'sup?
Like you're part of the family.
And then, on top of that, Imean the three people on this

(32:19):
phone and the fourth that'smissing, which is Debbie we're
all talkers, man, I'm justputting that out there for the
audience.
We're all talkers.
When we had a visit me and you,and then Debbie, of course, was
in the car doing school work andthen we met up with Christine.

(32:42):
We went out to eat.
We talked the whole time whilewe ate.
I mean, of course, we had toupdate about the visit and how
your visit went and everythinglike that.
But I mean, well, after we gotdone eating, we sat at the table
for about an hour.
Then we went back to the airbnband um, we're talking about, we

(33:05):
just sat there and talked forhours, man, hours.
Yeah, and it felt so naturalbecause, like I said, this is
like, you know, meeting anotherpart of the family, you know,
right, right.
So it wasn't like, oh, I got toget back down to Columbus.
Oh, I got somewhere to go,thanks for coming by.
It was like, forget what I gotto do, I could do that tomorrow.

(33:26):
And we just sat there and satthere and then we saw that it
was starting to get dim in theroom and we was like, oh crap.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
I think we might need to hit the road.
And this is the amazing thing.
Normally when I tell peoplethis, people always look at me
and think I'm kidding.
But I'm honest, I'm quite shyand it takes me a while.
You know, I usually sit backand listen to what people say
and give my little bit here andthere, but I'm the quiet one in
the room.
But when I met Debbie and you,it was none of that, it was just

(34:04):
the whole day and it waswonderful.
It was so great.
I felt so at ease with the bothof you from the moment we met.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'll say this, Jeremy One of the things that
distinguished my relationshipwith Christine than any other
relationship was simply becauseI was younger.
She didn't feel like I couldn'tteach her anything, Because one
of the things that she and I Ihad to learn first, and then I
shared it with Christine wasneither one of us really

(34:33):
understood or knew what love was.
Neither one of us reallyunderstood or knew what love was
we had an inkling.
But we never really understoodwhat love was.
And when we start redefiningwhat love was, we start seeing
the errors that we made withother people.
But that wasn't enough.
It had to be demonstrated inour relationship.
You know.

(34:56):
We had to understand that lovecan never hurt you, because it's
always for your best interest.
Love is my contribution to herlife to help her reach the best
version of herself.
There's an emotional element toit, but it's more a spiritual
connection and a spiritualcontribution to another person's
life.
These things, and then for meto show her these things, and

(35:17):
then for her to come around thepeople who I love as family and
they show her the same thing, isreinforcing this understanding
that I am surrounded by love.
I am surrounded by people whocare about my routine.
I'm surrounded by people that Ican be safe around, because
everything they do is always formy best interest.
Why wouldn't I want to be apart of that or contribute into
that?
And that's another element thatmade our relationship so strong

(35:39):
is we don't rely on simply theemotion of the other person.
We look at more so theconnection of our contribution
into each other's life, becauseit's always for the other
person's benefit.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
I got to say sometimes, man, it's so shocking
how similar we are man, because, as you started saying that, I
was just highlighting the nextquestion I was going to ask on
my computer screen.
And the question I was going toask is has this experience
changed the way you view love,relationships or life?

(36:11):
And then, before I could evenask it, you already answered it.
Definitely.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Well, Christine can answered it.
Definitely Well, Christine cananswer it?

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Definitely no.
I mean, to me it is just howcan I say it?
I never viewed any of thosethree love, relationships or
life.
I never viewed them in the wayI see them now.
To me, love was always thisfluffy, romantic, movie-like

(36:42):
kind of stuff, you know.
And once it got normal, then Igot bored and I kept thinking
what am I doing wrong?
There must be something elseI'm missing.
I'm not doing it right.
Yeah, and that was basicallythe story of my life.
Then the same withrelationships, relationships.

(37:07):
I've never received this kind ofunderstanding and commitment
and when I look back, lookingback also, I was pretty selfish
myself at times and complicated.
I didn't really understand whatit takes and what I have to
invest to have a healthyrelationship.
I always thought it all came byitself.
No, it doesn't.

(37:27):
You have to work damn hard forit and you know, this time
around we have to work hard onwhat we've got every single day,
and that makes it so, so, soprecious and so enjoyable at the
same time.
As for life, I think I'vestarted to live much more in the

(37:49):
moment, because our separationstaught me just how vital and
precious these moments we havetogether are, and that has made
life so much more simple,because, in order to be happy
with each other, we requirenothing more than this

(38:10):
relationship, this connection,and that was the biggest thing I
learned.
I don't need all the trimmings.
You know, when I remember, backon the penthouse, I was going
to send her, you know, a hundreddollar perfume and she brought
flowers.
She got flowers and I'm doingthis and I'm doing that, and I

(38:31):
was all just fluff.
I didn't need any of that.
What I have now, that outweighsall of that, so, so much.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
Do you guys know that you have taught me something
about love and relationships.
What's that?
Well, I remember talking to youbefore, warren, and this was
maybe about a year ago, and youhad mentioned to me a method you
guys use for resolvingconflicts or expressing certain

(39:02):
things that have hurt you oroffended you, and I was like,
man, that's some profound shitright there, and so if you feel
comfortable sharing that, man, Ithink everybody can learn
something from that.

Speaker 3 (39:18):
What I feel with us communication and laughter,
understanding each other andbeing open and never ending the
day in anger.
We've never done that, you know.
We always.
We never put the phone down andgo screw you.
None of that.
Never, any talk and never swear.
And we always talk about it, nomatter how painful or how hard

(39:39):
it is.
And at first that was a strugglebecause I wasn't used to this
honesty.
You know, I'm telling you knowhow this is.
Well, don't talk to me likethat, that's not nice.
Well, I don't care, you need tohear this, and vice versa.
And then we established acertain saying Like Warren has

(40:00):
this thing when I say somethingand he can feel I'm getting into
my pissy mood, he says, no, weain't doing that.
And you know what?
Boom, it brings me right downand I'm back on track and we
talk.
Or when I start trying to getan argument with him, he has

(40:22):
this same thing.
He says, yeah, I ain't gettingon that bus with you and yeah,
it stops me straight away.
And then one taught mesomething really, really
important, and that's been, Ithink, one of the pillars.
There are only three optionsavailable to us at all times we

(40:45):
either wait for the other personto catch up with us if we don't
understand each other.
Or we go back for the otherperson, or we carry them until
they're able to stand on theirown again.
Leaving the other person, or wecarry them until they're able
to stand on their own again,leaving the other person behind
in their misery and theirconfusion or pain, is never,
ever, an option, and that hasbeen a great lifesaver for us.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
I think those three things One of the biggest things
that we had was my friendshipwith this woman named Tina, and
Tina and I had been involved ina relationship before, but by
the time you got to startgrumbling I know it's a sore
issue, let me just get throughit when Christine and I was

(41:26):
involved, tina and I was nothingmore than friends, but
Christine didn't believe thatshe was like.
I always know that woman'strying to get back in.
I'm like Christine.
Tina owes you no fidelity.
Only person is loyal to you orowe you any fidelity is me.
But she kept saying well, Itrust you, I just don't trust
her.
And I used to piss me off likevery little.

(41:52):
But what I came to understand isand this is one of the things
that helped me learn aboutChristine, or just anyone when
Christine was upset with me atthat time because maybe I was
talking to Tina or somethinglike that, she wasn't seeing war
, she was seeing every otherperson who had betrayed her
trust.
That made her feel humiliated,that made her feel like there

(42:16):
was a potential of her gettinghurt and I had to help her see
me again.
But then I also had tounderstand this on my part
Christine had a right to feelwhatever she needed to feel,
because I'm the one that causedher to feel it.
I can never fault her or blameher for how she felt.
Why would I?

(42:36):
Something caused her to feelthat, and normally it was my
behavior or my action.
So the only thing I would tellChristina I'd say listen, I will
never fault you for how youfeel.
Just help me understand what Idid or how you came to that
feeling, because that's maybewhat we can work at it on.
But you're allowed to feelwhatever you want to feel,
because I had to realize I hadto honor how she felt.

(43:01):
I had to honor what she wasthinking.
Honor doesn't mean I have toagree with it, but respected
enough to give it the space,because it wasn't created out of
nothing.
Something created that,something created that fear,
something created thatinsecurity, something created
that doubt.
And if I know, somethingcreated, if she helped me
understand how it is, then I canfix it or I can make sure I
don't do it again, but I willnever fault her for having it.
Oh, you always hope to be doingthis again.

(43:23):
I would never do that to her,because now I'm not honoring the
woman, I'm honoring what I feelthat she should be thinking or
doing because I didn't do whatshe said I did.
So there's a lot of littlethings that she and I have added
and built our relationship uponthat keeps us solid.
Because if I tell you I love you, I can't just love you when

(43:43):
things are going right.
I can't just love you when I'min a good mood.
I can't just love you when Idon't, when I like you.
I got to love you too when Idon't like you, but love is
always.
Are you born with speed?
What needs to be done in thebest interest of her, even when
I'm upset, when I'm frustrated?
Or will I be calling her allkind of bitches and stupid
motherfuckers and all that otherstuff?

(44:03):
Like would I disrespect her?
In that moment I can't possiblylove you.
Because how is that working toyour benefit?
How is that teaching that Ilove you?
How is that teaching you?
Teaching you that a person canto be empathetic towards you?

Speaker 4 (44:13):
It can.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
You're a very wise person.

Speaker 1 (44:18):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
It took me a while to understand that, because, you
know, every time he called andsaid, oh, I spoke to Gina, I
said, oh, not her again, forfuck's sake.
And I was.
And then he said, well, forfuck's sake, and I was.
And then he said, well, she'smy friend, you're not making me
stop, nobody tells me what to do.
And immediately I was up inarms.

(44:45):
You know, yeah, you don'tunderstand me.
Well, you don't understand meeither, and I always felt he was
protecting her and attacking me, and it took me ages to
understand that was not the case.
That was just my fear, myinsecurity.
I was just always on thewarpath.

(45:07):
As soon as that name came up,my hair started curling up and I
was ready for a fight.
You know, it was horrible.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
And that's why I had to understand.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
The only thing that saved us was communication.
Sorry, go on.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
No, and that's what I say A lot of times when people
are in that situation where youfeel like you're on the right,
you think that the only thingthat needs to change is the
other person, and I was neverthinking that Christine was the
only one.
That needs to change is theother person, and I was never
thinking that Christine was theonly one that needed to change.
And that's when I realized thatit wasn't about.
It wasn't that she didn't trustme, but I was doing things that

(45:46):
mimicked or reflected otherpeople who hurt her.
So why wouldn't you respondthat way?
But again, we don't leave eachother.
That is something she and I donot do.
We do not believe in it, we donot practice it, and if I have
to sit on this phone for hoursuntil she and I can get, I think

(46:06):
only one time, once or twice,where I said you know what?
We're not getting anywheretoday, I'll just call you back
tomorrow, but just hanging upthe phone, we don't do that that
is a no-no.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
No, never.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
That's deep, no.
So I know that you guysmentioned that you've learned to
live more in the moment, but Iknow from being in prison a lot
of my thoughts have focused onthe future.
Do you guys do any type offuture planning together?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Absolutely Egypt.

Speaker 3 (46:44):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Don't tell them.
Egypt is Always warrants answerto everything.
Egypt, Well, I lived in Egyptfor years and I lived in Kuwait,
in the Middle East, and I lovedit out there.
And every time I used to tellWarren about Egypt oh, I would

(47:06):
love to go there, oh, thatsounds so great, oh, my God.
And then I showed him picturesand I told him what it was like.
And yeah, and then we decidedone day why don't we go Once
you're off papers?
Why don't we go to Egypt?
Yeah, let's.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
And that was it, and I've still got friends out there
, so you know go on and, jeremy,you know this is our five-year
plan.
We plan on because I'm going tobe on papers for five years.
For five years we're going towork and we're going to save,
and after five years then we'releaving the country and Egypt is
our first destination.

(47:48):
That's one of the things thatChristine does is she sends me
places that I never even thoughtof living before.
When I first met Christine, theidea of moving out of the
country was like why would Iever leave America?
What's outside of America?
She's like there's a wholeworld out here.
You didn't know that Americawas where the world is.
And so she started introducingme to all these other places.

(48:11):
And the more places I startedseeing, the more I started
saying I want to go there, Iwant to see those places.
So, yeah, she opened my eyes tothe possibility of something
beyond what my mind was limitedto.
And so, yeah, after my 50 yearsup, and they give me my paper
saying you know you are nowformally off of all kind of

(48:32):
supervision, you know you haveyour freedom, go live your life.
That day after I get mypassport, we're leaving the
country.
There's a lot of people whodon't believe me and I keep
trying to tell them.
you better appreciate me now,because when I'm gone, I'm gone,
so they will see after fiveyears what would that be?

(48:52):
Baby 2032?
2032, I will be moving to Egypt.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
I'm not mad at all because, you know, I went to
Christine for some Egyptsuggestions myself when we were
planning that vacation, and Iknow also how people can kind of
try to throw a damper on yourplans, man especially you know
in there, but it's because theylive life through their own

(49:22):
level of understanding and evenout here, you know, people out
here don't know everything.
So by the time I got out and Iwas like, man, I'm, I'm trying
to lead a country, people arelike, oh, you can't get a
passport.
I'm like I already got apassport, you know so.
And and I once I told people inprison that it blew everybody's

(49:43):
mind and kind of had to breakyears of misinformation where
they're like, oh, once you're afelon, you can't get a passport,
once you're a felon, you can'tdo this.
I'm like, bro, stop listeningto that.
Let me tell you something.
You know.
You told me I got off papers Ayear later we were supposed to
go to Egypt.

(50:03):
Everybody know how that went.
If you don't, you know, tapinto that episode Unbeliezable.
You know that was our trip toBelize instead of Egypt.
But yeah, you know, people wereamazed and they thought that it
was me, like something amazingabout me that allowed me to do
this, and I'm like, no, you justgot to stop listening to people

(50:25):
talk and find the informationfor yourself, and so I try to
give that information back topeople in there like you, like
Wise, and like other people thatI know.
Y'all going to spread thepositive information of the
possibilities and stop tellingpeople what they can't do.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
Do you remember what you told me that one time, when
you and I were sitting in D2 andI was like man, I'm just going
out there to survive.
Man, Remember what you told me.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
I said, man, I don't want to survive, I'm going out
there to live.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
I'm going out there to live and that has always
stuck with me.
That idea of surviving is notworthy of my life.
My life is worth more than justsurviving.
My life is worth more than justexisting.
And I connected with a womanthat says my life is worth more
than just surviving.
My life is worth more than justexisting.
I want to live.

(51:17):
I want to see the world, I wantto still explore.
I want to see the world, I wantto still explore, I want to be
still fascinated, I want to seethe culture and I want to be in
it.
I don't want to just visit itin an Airbnb or a hotel.
I want to be immersed.
And she woke up a part of myspirit that I didn't even know
was dormant.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Well, that's why I say I'm happy that you have her,
because I understand through alot of retrospection and
introspection, that we grew upnot only in prison but before
prison.
We grew up on survival.
So to hear you say I'm justtrying to go out there and

(51:57):
survive, I didn't look down onyou or anything for saying that
because that was normal.
I just so happened to have donea lot of thought about that at
the time and was like man, I seea lot of people out here just
surviving.
People tell me all the phone onthe time, all the time, all the
phone.
They're like oh man, I'msurviving, I'm out here doing
this, I'm doing that the phone.

(52:18):
They're like, oh man, you knowI'm surviving, you know I'm out
here doing this, I'm doing that,I'm surviving.
But I'm like it's got to bemore than survival out there.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
I gotta find that, and once I find that, you know
what is so sad about all of this, what's that just surviving?
You know, why do people have solittle trust in their own?
You know in their own abilities, and you know there is so much

(52:46):
to see out here in this worldand we're just so happy, you
know, to stay in the same spotour entire life and be around
the same people our entire life,and we're missing out on so
much.
And to me that's something Icould never understand, because

(53:06):
you know we have the ability toconquer the world and we just
don't do it.
And that's terrible, I think.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
We restrict ourselves all the time.
Yeah, and so, Jeremy.
One of the nicknames I giveChristine is called Fugle Franny
right, Because Christine willwatch a penny like a hawk.
I can't even believe you'rebringing that up right now.
I'm making a point, baby, I'mmaking a point, oh my God.
Point the reason why, the reasonwhy the point is relevant is
because Christine showed me thatthe life that we want to live

(53:45):
is not that expensive to live it.
I think that's one of themisconceptions a lot of people
have is that in order to livethat life is going to take a lot
of money.
She starts showing me listen,if we save this amount of money,
if we do this, we can liverelatively comfortably in this
country because the US dollar isso much greater over there.
Or we can live this well in thecountry because we're going to

(54:07):
be living in a certain type ofway that's not going to require
all the kind of money thatpeople think it is.
She showed me that any singlething that we wanted to do, if
we work to do it, we canaccomplish it.
And again, having that kind ofperson every single day,
whispering a truth greater thanthe lies that you've been

(54:27):
telling in your head and to yoursoul.
It starts making you believethat I can accomplish anything
with this person, and that'swhat I tell her.
I say listen, as long as it'syou and the Father, me and you,
good.
If anyone else decides to helpus, great, but as long as we

(54:47):
have me, you and the HeavenlyFather, then I'm not concerned
about anything else.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Sounds like that.
That's great.
I know that you guys come fromtwo vastly different backgrounds
and I remember the moment.
I remember a lot of moments,but I remember the moment when I
decided, man, I don't want tobe with anybody.
That's from where I'm from, youknow, and you know.

(55:16):
Of course, at first I tried tocome home and make it work
locally and I was like so me andDebbie met online and she was
from a small town I never heardof and, of course, I was from,
you know, living in Akron, whichis another small town, and if
you heard of it it's probablybecause of LeBron James.
And so we was like man, howabout we both move to Columbus?

(55:38):
I had wanted to, she had wantedto.
So we was like man, how aboutwe both move to Columbus?
I had wanted to, she had wantedto.
So we're like let's do it.
You know, right, but by uscoming together with such vast
background differences, all of asudden it opened each mind up
to thinking differently, outsideof what we had normally thought
.
So her thought processes alone,I thought, was amazing.

(55:58):
I'm like damn, you think likethat've done what right?
Hers was like no, you, you'vedone this and you think like
that.
But when we got together all ofa sudden, now we have this
third unexplored area ofthinking and we have all these
first time experiences togetherand it's amazing.

(56:19):
I don't think I would have anyof these experiences had it been
, had it not been for me gettingout of that area where I was,
you know that, that pond that Iwas normally living in, yeah,
you know.
And so now I have all theseexperiences that I am set an
example for other people, andpeople are amazed Can't imagine

(56:43):
that that would be my existenceright now if it wasn't for me
getting out of that small pond,even if I was the biggest
thinker in that pond, you know,yeah, yeah, I've lived in Hawaii
and I've lived in Florida andI've lived in Kentucky and I've
lived all these places, but I'vealways found myself in a

(57:05):
similar situation in each ofthose places.
So, yeah, I got the experienceof going there, but once I met
Debbie, it was like we can livein the same place.
But now our minds have cometogether to where we don't think
anything like what's going onaround us.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Everything becomes possible.

Speaker 1 (57:22):
We had to battle so many naysayers and I know that's
what you guys are going throughso many non-believers, so many,
you know.
So much skepticism, so manypeople just like, bro, that's
not going to work.
I know what you're thinking.
That sounds crazy.
No, I'm just pushing you.
Just got to be like hey, listen, I ain't ask for your opinion.

(57:44):
You know just like.
Hey, I ain't ask for youropinion, just sit back and watch
me work.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:54):
Well, listen, I have to go oh yeah, I love you baby.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
I'll talk to you later, I will.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Brother, I love you baby, I will Brother, I love you
.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
I love you too, Okay, and I'll talk to you later okay
.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
All right, man Love you too, bro Later.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
The Lockdown to Legacy podcast is proud to be a
part of the Buzzsprout PodcastCommunity Network.
Audio engineering is done byour very own Remy Jones.
You can reach out to us withany feedback, questions,
comments or share the love byemailing stories at
lockdown2legacycom Stories atlockdown2legacycom.

(58:37):
You can reach out there too,too, for a free sticker, and you
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Please don't forget to rate,review and subscribe.
Thanks for listening.