Non-Monogamy & Open Relationships: Nonsense or a Better Approach to Love

Episode Transcript
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Annette Benedetti (00:03):
Hi, this is Annette Benedetti, your hostess
for a locker room talk and shots, the podcast that likes to
think of itself as the queer NPRof raunchy women's sex talk.
You are about to sit in on thekind of conversations women have
on their girls' nights out orbehind closed doors, while
enjoying delicious drinks anddishing about sex, think fun,

(00:26):
honest and feminist as fuck, andalways with the goal of
fighting the patriarchy oneorgasm at a time.
Welcome to the locker room.
Today's locker room talk andshots topic is non-monogamy and

(00:47):
open relationships nonsense or abetter approach to love.
Listener, you've been around fora while.
If you've been around for awhile, then you're well aware
that over the last 10 to 15years of my life, I have
primarily been in non-monogamousrelationships, with some
monogamy mixed in, and over thejourney of my own relationship

(01:10):
life, I have been faced with alot of scrutiny.
I've been faced with a lot ofquestions and, to be frank, I
have been in community withPolly people and people involved
in open relationships,especially recently and in
situations that made me questionnon-monogamy.
Now here's the good news I havea guest today who specializes

(01:33):
in non-monogamous relationshipsand alternative relationship
style, and I feel fairlyconfident that she is going to
be able to help us answer thequestions we have about it.
My guest today is Effy Blue.
She is a relationship coachspecializing in supporting
people who are curious abouttransitioning into, or who have

(01:55):
hit roadblocks in,non-traditional relationships.
Her coaching philosophyrelationships by design as
opposed to relationships bydefault encourages folks to
consciously and dynamicallydesign their relationships with
the goal of everyone thriving.
She is also the co-host ofCurious Fox podcast for those

(02:16):
challenging the status quo inlove, sex and relationships, and
if this podcast is aboutanything, it is about
challenging the status quo.
So, effy, could you take amoment to introduce yourself to
my listeners?

Effy Blue (02:30):
Absolutely.
My name is Effie Blue.
Like you said, I'm arelationship coach.
I've been doing this for aboutseven years.
Prior to that I was in thecorporate world.
I had my experience in that andthen I pivoted at a time in my
life where I was also figuringout my own relationship
structures and I had alreadybeen through my life and came up

(02:54):
with this idea of life bydesign.
I just realized that at thatpoint in my life I was doing
really well in my career.
On paper I should have beenthriving, I was earning a lot of
money At status, I was veryhigh up in my career, I was
traveling the world and I wasn'tcontent and I couldn't really

(03:15):
figure out why.
And it just culminated withagain another period of my time
I'd moved to New York City and Imet some people that were
living these different type ofrelationships and I was in a
position where I could justpress pause, take a sabbatical
and really kind of rip my lifeapart to really understand where

(03:37):
was this contentment comingfrom.
And with that I came up withthis idea of really for my own
work, a life by design.
What would happen if I designedeverything from scratch for
myself and I made decisionsreally with this one idea of
will I thrive If I do this?

(03:57):
Will I thrive If I do this?
Will this nurture and support astate of thriving for me?
And I was able to do that.
And the one part that I reallywasn't getting it is the
relationship part.
So I honed in on that.
And I'm a nerd I'm naturally anerd.
I was the kid whose homeworkyou copied at school, who did

(04:20):
extra credit, who read the extrabooks, was a head in class.
I'm a nerd by nature.
So I just took this deep diveinto relationship relationship
psychology.
I went back to school retrainedand came out the other side as
a relationship coach and Ireally wanted to understand and

(04:42):
help people who the one sizefits all prescription from
society around relationships,the relationship by default
model wasn't working for becauseit wasn't working for me.
And then, once I figured outthat I could also have a
relationship by design, then itwas a big revelation for me and
it was a big passion for me tothen spread that word and
support people to do the samefor themselves.

Yeah, that's wonderful and I think that
resonates with me and I imagineit will resonate with a lot of
my listeners.
So, listener, I want you to stayto the end, because as always
at the end, I'm going to giveyou your takeaways with Effie,
and if you are thinking abouttrying a new relationship model,

(05:28):
stepping into thenon-traditional, then by the end
of this podcast you are goingto have sort of a starter
package to launch that, ifyou're already well on your way
or have been giving non-monogamya try, you're also just, I
think, going to get a lot ofinformation that's going to help
solidify your movement forwardin those relationships.

(05:52):
As always, if you havequestions, I want you to scroll
down to the description of thispodcast.
There is a link and you canleave me a voicemail with your
question.
I can get answers from Effie.
I will give you your answerseither in another podcast or an
article, but leave me yourvoicemail.
You don't have to leave yourname, you can be anonymous, so

(06:14):
do that as well.
Effie, I am excited about thisconversation.
I got coffee over here.
What time you are in Turkey?
What time is it there?

Effy Blue (06:25):
It is 7.15 pm in the evening.

We're at opposite ends of the day.

Effy Blue (06:30):
We are, we are exactly, exactly, but I will
join you with a cup of tea.

I love it.
All right.
Well, cheers.
Let's talk about sex andrelationships.
I just want to start thisconversation.
For those who are completelynew to the concept of
non-monogamy, can you justdefine what non-monogamy is as a
relationship style?

Effy Blue (06:54):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It's funny If you asked me thisfive years ago people really
didn't understand, butdefinitely have noticed in the
last five years it's become ahuge part of the zeitgeist, it
has become a very legitimaterelationship structure and it is
non-monogamy.
It's kind of defined itself inthe negative right.

(07:17):
It's not monogamy.
Monogamy is two people at atime.
It used to be two people forlife and these days it's two
people at a time, so a couplethat is in an intimate, close
relationship and not datinganybody else or not seeing
anybody else.
One monogamy on the other sideis when you are open to having
multiple relationships at thesame time and it can look in so

(07:41):
many forms, right?
This is not linear, but just togive you sort of two different
styles that it might look like.
So you can have something likemonogamy-ish, right, which is
something that Dan Savage cameup with, and this idea is that
you are in a monogamousrelationship.
Maybe you're a couple and thenevery now and then you'll double
.
You will maybe go and have athreesome with somebody, or

(08:03):
you'll go and hang out at a sexparty, or on your birthday you
get a whole pass for someone,right?
So you're a monogamous, there'sjust the two of you and then
every now and then you'redoubling outside right.
Now you're sort of moving moreto the middle.
Maybe you're an openrelationship, so you recognize a
core relationship, or somepeople call it a primary

(08:26):
relationship my language that Ichoose is really core
relationships so you kind ofrecognize the couple of them
that you're in while making roomand space and time for having
other relationships right, whilerecognizing that there's one
core relationship.
Now we're moving sort of to theother side of that.
Now we are in the realm ofpolyamory.

(08:48):
Like poly, many amory, manyloves.
So polyamory you're looking atlong-term, involved, intimate
relationships with multiplepeople where you may or may not
recognize the core relationship,but you're really looking at
long-term, invested, lovingrelationships with more than one
person.
That's kind of what the veryroughly the lay of the land

(09:10):
looks like in non-monogamy.

Right.
So that was interesting andanswered one of my questions I
always was curious about when doyou go from non-monogamy to
calling yourself polyamor?
Yes and it sounds like youdefine that as when you really
move into multiple long-termrelationships that have more of

(09:34):
an equal status.

Effy Blue (09:37):
Sure.
So this is just a technicality.
But every polyamorous person isnon-monogamous, right?
So non-monogamy is almost likean umbrella term.
So you have as an umbrella youhave monogamy, and then you have
non-monogamy, and then underthe non-monogamous you know
broad umbrella term, you haveopen relationships, you have
polyamory, you have swinging,you have monogamy-ish, you know,

(10:00):
and then you have differenttypes of these relationships.
You have non-hierarchicalpolyamory, where everyone's kind
of there's no recognized onerelationship but everyone's on
the same footing.
You have parallel polyamory,where people are in long-term
invested relationships thataren't connected to each other.
You have kitchen tablepolyamory, where everyone's kind

(10:22):
of is able to sit around thetable and break bread and get to
know each other.
So it really depends on whatyour relationship looks like and
it's kind of what you want tocall it.
It's really, you know, it'sreally up to you, just from a
terminology point of view, ifyou think of non-monogamy as an
umbrella term and theneverything else is like versions

(10:43):
of non-monogamy.
I hope that helps.

Yes, it does, and I mean I think one thing
that has always drawn me tonon-monogamy is that it doesn't
feel like there's this rigid setof rules around what you have
to call it or how it'sstructured.
And while it's something thatdraws me to it, I think it's

(11:06):
also something that makes raisesan eyebrow from people.
And when I first came tonon-monogamy it was people
always called it ethicalnon-monogamy and I have moved
away from that because in mymind I feel like it is ethical.
Non-monogamy is ethical bynature, Whereas I question

(11:30):
sometimes how ethical monogamyis, because it feels very like
forced and oftentimes unhealthyand controlling and stuff like
that.
So I don't use ethicalnon-monogamy, I just call it
non-monogamy.
But yeah, I think the lack ofrules sometimes people are like,

(11:50):
assume it's like this, free forall where people can just fuck
whoever they want to, withoutworrying about how it makes some
sense.
They're just worrying about howit makes someone else feel.
Can you address that topconcern that comes up?

Effy Blue (12:06):
Absolutely.
And also I want to just joinyou in.
I am the same.
I feel very strongly about notcalling ethical non-monogamy
ethical non-monogamy, becausenon-ethical non-monogamy is
cheating and any healthyrelationship, regardless of the
structure, monogamy ornon-monogamy, is ethical in its

(12:26):
design.
So I don't necessarily thinkmonogamy isn't ethical.
I think there are ethicalmonogamy and then if it's not
well managed it's not ethical.
But I think as long asrelationship is healthy and
thriving and considered in mybook, it's ethical by nature.
So I don't necessarily believein saying ethical non-monogamy

(12:47):
either.
I think the reason why we sayit actually my theory on this
and I talk about this a lot isbecause it's still scary and it
is a pre-qualifier to kind oftell people no, no, it's okay,
it's okay, it's ethical.
I think just we have to somehowqualify this idea of
non-monogamy because the initialidea of it is like it's wrong,

(13:11):
it's dirty, it's immoral.
It just still carries all theseconnotations.
So I think the ethicalnon-monogamy piece is to kind of
appease the people who arejumping into conclusions to
think exactly what you're sayingis you're just like fucking
around all the time, nobodycares about anybody, nobody
cares about the other person orthe relationship and all that
kind of stuff, which is not thecase.

(13:31):
But I think that's where theethical piece comes from and I
don't use it either for thisreason and around what it looks
like.
So this is the way I thinkabout it.
Monogamy comes out of thepackage with what I call default
settings.
Like your phone comes out ofthe box and it has got default
setting pre-installed.
You can very much just use itas it's.

(13:53):
Somebody thought about a userexperience.
Somebody installed a bunch ofsettings and it works and it
functions and it is same acrossthe board.
So anybody my 80-year-old momcan get an iPhone out of a bag,
out of a box, and use it and itwill function.
I think that's what Monogamy is.
Society has come up with a setof default settings, if you will

(14:17):
, around relationships and theycall it Monogamy and you can use
it out of the box.
It is fine.
When you cross over tonon-monogamy, you are now
customizing your relationship.
You can think about it as that.
You can think about it as I'mnow going to go through my
settings and see how do I wantit to work for me.
Like for me specifically, like,how do I want it when I look at

(14:39):
my phone.
What do I want it to say?
Like all that kind of stuff.
Translate that intorelationships.
Or you can look at that as paintby numbers monogamy versus a
blank canvas non-monogamy andyes, it can be really exciting
to have a blank canvas that youcan come up with your own design
.
It could also be scary, likemost of us who write know how

(15:03):
scary a blank page can be.
And then when you are thentalking to people who are
talking about non-monogamy andthey're saying there are no set
rules, you make up your ownrules.
Now it's exciting and scary atthe same time.
So, yes, that is very real.
What it means is that you thenhave to become very conscious.

(15:25):
So the relationship by designidea is rather than this it's
about consciously anddynamically designing your
relationship Consciously,meaning what do I want from a
relationship Like, what do Iwant a relationship to afford me
?
Right, and I don't mean thattransactionally, but I am
co-creating a relationship witha person or persons, right?

(15:46):
Why am I doing that?
What is the purpose of this?
How do I want to feel in thisrelationship?
Right?
And then dynamically designingall the features of a
relationship to really supportthat idea of what do I want and
to support this idea of thriving, like, are we all thriving in

(16:07):
this co-creation that we've comeup with?
And no rules, free for all.
You fuck who you want, you letgo of your boundaries and you
let go of your responsibilities?
Is a design Right?
No judgment.
If it works for you and yourpartner or partners, sure.
If everyone's thriving in thiskind of abandoned, nihilistic

(16:27):
way of looking at relationships,good for you.
But there's no judgment, right.
What tends to happen isactually people kind of sit
around the table and go okay,now we have this blank canvas.
What do we want it to look like?
The big topic is like what areour boundaries Right?
Like, what are the things thatare not okay?
That's kind of where we moststart with.
And then what I reallyencourage people to do to spend

(16:49):
as much time on boundaries aswhat do I want it to be Like?
How do I want to feel?
How do I then want to translatethese desires, these the way
that we're going to thrive, intoa relationship structure?
Does that make sense?

Yes, yes.
So it involves a lot ofcommunication, where you're
listening to what each personyou are in a relationship with
wants out of a relationship,needs out of a relationship, and
figuring out how do we createthe relationship that supports
all of our needs and wants.

Effy Blue (17:25):
Yes, To the best of our ability.
You are, first and foremost,yes, and first and foremost,
you're listening to yourself,right, right, because now you're
saying monogamy.
I'm not just adhering to themonogamy, but I actually have to
now tap into myself and decidewhat is it that I need?
What is that I want?
What is it that I desire?
I seek that.
I'm curious about Right, andthat piece comes first.

(17:47):
And then, once you get clearabout that, then you put that on
the table and the people thatyou want to be in a relationship
with do the same, hopefully,and then you co-create something
that works for you.

It sounds amazing.
It has been amazing for me forthe most part.
But the question that comes upand I think everyone probably
deals with at some point is whatabout jealousy?
People will say to me all ofthe time I could never be
non-monogamous, I could neverhave my partner with somebody
else.
I'm just too jealous, I justcouldn't do it.

(18:18):
Like I couldn't do it.
It would.
I wouldn't trust them, I'd beworried about them leaving me
for someone else.
That is such a big piece thatfor most everybody and I know
not everybody, but mosteverybody that is ingrained into
us because we have been borninto a society for the most part
most of us where monogamy isthe default and we are taught to

(18:41):
get and keep a partner at anycost and to see all the other
threats out there, right, andsomehow fight them off and keep
this person.
So what is your response tothat?

Effy Blue (18:56):
For sure, I think jealousy is like in the top
three questions that get askedwhen you talk about non-monogamy
.
So I'm not surprised you'regoing there and absolutely
jealousy is very real.
Honestly, I haven't met anybodywho's healthy and sane who does
not feel jealousy.
It is an emotion just likeanything else.
It is like fear, it's likesadness, it's like joy, it's

(19:19):
like nervousness.
It is an emotion that we allfeel.
It is a composite emotion.
So it's not sort of your sortof more primary emotions like
fear or love.
You're sort of jealousy is acomposite emotion and the
research says that jealousyoccurs when we perceive a

(19:41):
significant threat to asignificant relationship.
This is the very simple sort ofdefinition of how jealousy
occurs.
This is what the research sayswhen we perceive a significant
threat to a significantrelationship.
So if you bring this like,break this down, this idea of
perceiving a significant threatto a significant relationship
can happen in any relationship.

(20:02):
Because now you're sayingsignificant relationship, that
could be a monogamousrelationship just to one person.
It could be parental, it couldbe friendship, it could be any
relationship that you have.
It could be any relationshipthat you feel significant to.
Now a significant threat.
That's also very relative.
What is a significant threat,right.
Some people can see theirpartner's promotion in their

(20:24):
career a significant threat,right, it doesn't have to be
another person, right?
Or they can think of a newinterest in a new hobby as a
significant threat Because ittakes them away from the
relationship.
It takes away from that, right?
So that's also a big topic nowand it's being perceived.

(20:45):
So it's real or perceived, wedon't know.
As long as we're perceiving it,this idea of this feeling of
jealousy is triggered.
Right.
And yes, in non-monogamousrelationships there are more
obvious and societallyreinforced threats that can come
up.
Right, there's no story, forexample, in our broader society,

(21:11):
around two women who love thesame man and get along.
All the stereotypes that wehave out there is that mother
and daughter or mother anddaughter-in-law, all these sort
of couplings.
When you have two women lovinga man, regardless of the type of
love, we are being told thereshould be conflict, right?

(21:34):
So in our social consciousnesswe think that if two women love
one man, there should beconflict, right?
So all these ideas that arewhat we call in the show the
noise, right?
So this idea of a threat is outthere and what we've been told
should be scary the idea that ifour partner's interest in

(21:55):
someone else, they areinevitably going to leave us.
Right Again, that is an ideathat's just in our noise.
It's like it's not confirmed.
One of the things I say topeople why would anybody leave a
happy, healthy, thrivingrelationship, especially if it's
an open one, right?
So let's just look at wherethese fears are coming from.

(22:16):
Are they coming from the ideathat you're now non-monogamous
and all these people might stealyour partner?
Or, on some level, are youaware that there are some cracks
in your core relationship andyou haven't addressed it?
And now that those guardrailshave been taken off, you can't
avoid seeing those things Right?
Because what tends to happenwith non-monogamy especially if

(22:37):
you're transitioning into itfrom monogamous structure, it's
like stadium-sized floodlightsget turned on onto the
relationship.
So things that were once likedim-lit in the corners, that you
don't really address, suddenlyall those things are loud,
bright and clear that you haveto deal with that jealousy and

(22:58):
fear is not rooted necessarilyin the reality that someone else
might steal your partner.

It's that there is something going on in
that core relationship that youknow on some level is
problematic, that you're notdealing with and taking care of,
and so it's not a securerelationship.
It is in an insecure place, forsure or you're insecure within

(23:26):
yourself.

Effy Blue (23:27):
You have some limiting beliefs about yourself
that are saying something likeyou're not good enough, that you
don't matter enough, that theydon't care about you enough,
that you're not lovable enough.
So suddenly these negativeself-beliefs are also bringing
fear into the relationship.
So jealousy is really aboutfear.

(23:47):
It's a perceived significantthreat to a significant
relationship.
Essentially, it's about fear.
Yeah, so when jealousy comes up, my invitation to people is
pause, take some breaths.
You know truly like.
Sit down, feel your feet on theground, feel your seat, your
butt on the seat.
Take ID to 10 breaths that's alifetime for some people like

(24:12):
five breaths.
That will regulate youremotional, your nervous system.
And then ask yourself what am Iafraid of?
And keep asking until you peelback the layers.
Do you really get to the issue?
And I think you'll find youknow that is what you need to
deal with.
Your partner showing interestin somebody else is triggering a

(24:33):
fear.
So you need to get to the fearto understand what's going on
for you.

I don't think of jealousy as this bad emotion
.
A lot of people frame jealousyas it's this bad thing you have
to get rid of.
I've always thought of jealousyas a guide.
It's just another emotion thatgives me information, right For
sure.
It gives me information aboutmyself, it gives me information

(24:57):
about my relationship.
It gives me information abouthow I feel about the other
person, and then the trick islike being honest with yourself
about that information you getand then taking action right,
whether it's I've got to fixsomething with myself, or I need
to fix the relationship, or Ineed to address something

(25:18):
directly with my partner.

Effy Blue (25:20):
Yes, absolutely.
And I think it's also worththinking about envy as well,
because I think envy comes uptoo.
So with envy, so with jealousy,is like I don't want you to
have that thing.
Envy is I want that too, right?
That's the difference.
And sometimes envy comes up insituations like this.

(25:42):
Let's say you and your partnerhave a great relationship.
They're now dating somebodyelse and as a part of that
relationship, they're nowembarking on something like new,
fresh and exciting.
They are starting.
They've taken up a hobbytogether, right?
They've started sailingtogether.
I'm living by the sea right now, so, like, sailing is on my
mind.
So they've started sailingtogether and you're noticing

(26:05):
that.
You know that's bringing joy toyour partner's life and they're
growing.
And there's this connection.
Is it jealousy, is it envy, oris it both?
Is it telling you that actually, you're envious of what they're
doing and you want that too,right?
So if that is the case, what isthe conversation you're having

(26:25):
with your partner around?
Hey, I'm really loving thisconnection, this new thing, this
newness that you'reexperiencing.
I really would like that for ustoo.
Like what can we do, right?
So I think that's reallyimportant too.
Just realize that jealousy isone thing.
It's more about fear, and whatyou're afraid of and envy is
about what is it that you wantthat you're not?

getting, and it's important to be able to
tell the difference betweenjealousy and envy.
Is there a trick to being ableto tell which one you're
experiencing?
I guess, as it can still beconfusing, right.

Effy Blue (26:58):
Oh, of course, these things are very confusing.
These are very nuanced feelingsand also you're experiencing
these feelings in a time ofconfusion because there's new
people coming in and maybeyou're transitioning and you're
activated.
These are activated feelings soit can get very difficult to
tell them apart and get clear.
I would say I would really goback to what I was saying, which

(27:19):
is try to identify, try toidentify the base feeling right.
So if it's about fear, right,I'm going to be left, I'm not
good enough.
You know, most of the timeyou're coming down into fear of
abandonment, fear of rejection,like those are.
Like you dig, dig, dig, dig,dig.
Mostly you're coming down toI'm not good enough or they're

(27:43):
going to leave me, like thoseare often where we come down to.
And if you're dealing with that,if you're dealing with that,
you're in the realm of jealousyand the work is about, you know,
getting to a secure place,finding self-confidence, being
able to get to know yourself,being self-expressed and all
that kind of stuff.
Right, envy is when you dig,dig, dig, dig, dig and it's

(28:06):
about wanting a yearning andlike I want that too.
Right, and it doesn't come fromfear, it's more like it can
actually feel like.
On the negative side, it canfeel like resentment this is the
thing that I want and I'm notgetting.
It could be a yearning.
Oh, I wish I had that thing too.
The work around that is verydifferent.

(28:27):
It's about getting clear aboutwhat you want, negotiating the
things that you want, making arequest, actually figuring out
how you're going to get thething, the feeling or the
connection that you're yearningfor.
Those are the ways to do someself inquiry and tell the
difference.
Does that?

help.
It's very, very helpful.
I want to shift gears a littlebit.
I would say throughout mydating experience, when I've
connected with people oftentimesmen, more often men than women,
because I date both I have runinto people who use non-monogamy

(29:05):
in what I would say I wouldconsider sort of abusive ways,
meaning they say that they'renon-monogamous but instead of
creating non-monogamousrelationships, it feels more
like they're just trying to beable to have sex with as many
people as they want.

(29:26):
Or they have a primaryrelationship and they're like oh
, we're non-monogamous and mywife is fine with this, and it
really becomes more of a justtrying to see how many people
they can hook up with, typething.
And suddenly you're wrapped upin this relationship.
You think you're in and you'reactually just dating someone

(29:46):
who's kind of using it in thisharmful way.
And I think it's one of theways that non-monogamy gets
again a bad reputation.
People who are like oh, there'snon-monogamy, so I guess I can
be in this relationship and thenI can do whatever I want.
Can you speak to that at allFor sure?

Effy Blue (30:09):
I wonder if it's just non-monogamy, because I can
definitely see how monogamy isweaponized too, that it's a
weapon for control, a weapon foroppression.
I'm not saying non-monogamy isthose things.
That's not what I'm saying,absolutely not.
What I'm saying is it can beused as tools for control and

(30:29):
oppression, in a way thatnon-monogamy can be used to
avoid intimacy and closeness andconnection and all those kind
of things.
So I think if you're not in agood place, you can weaponize
any relationship structure toand ends up being kind of

(30:50):
harmful to you and you don'treally realize, but it's being
harmful to you as well and thepeople that you're connecting
with as well.
So I think it's really aboutthe people who are dating to be
conscious and have goodcommunication, to get clear
about all these things andasking questions like what is
available in this relationship?

(31:10):
How do you want to have thisrelationship?
If they're saying to you, oh,my wife and I were in open
relationships, she's OK with it.
And if it doesn't feel right toyou, just ask the questions how
long have you beennon-monogamous?
What does that look like foryou?
How often do you date?
Does she date, does he date?
And having the confidence torealize.

(31:31):
I think some people don't askthose questions either because
they don't want to upset thesituation and two they want to
avoid.
They want to think about thefact that this person they're
dating has another partner, andI would discourage people from
both of those things.
You go into any relationshipwith confidence that is

(31:54):
important and confidence to takecare of yourself, to really
understand what kind ofrelationship that you're walking
into.
And if you find yourself notwanting to think about the
person having another partner,you probably shouldn't be dating
them.
And I think hopefully you'reover those things and you're at
a dating stage with this person.
Just ask the questions and doyou just want to have fun, sexy

(32:17):
one-time experiences?
And if you do, that's OK.
I just need to know, because Imight want those and I can then
come into this relationship inthat mode, versus thinking
there's going to be somethingmore and bigger than that.
And this really just goes backto this communication around.
Tell me what kind of arelationship you're looking for

(32:40):
and if you're in an existingrelationship, what does that
look like?
What are your boundaries, whatare your agreements, what's OK,
what is not OK, what isavailable in this relationship.
So just to really ask what Ithink to be sensible questions,
as you're dating people.

Yeah, it sounds to me like communication
ahead of time is the big piecehere, of course.
You're like decisions can't bemade in a moment.
It's like at the beginning whatare you looking for, what are
you OK for, when you're bothclear-minded and sitting down
and talking about what you'redoing?
And I think what happensoftentimes is people just jump

(33:20):
into things without thoseconversations and without having
time to really get in touchwith what I want and what really
stands out.
That you said is that bothnon-monogamy and monogamy are
weaponized for control in verydifferent ways.
In very different ways.

(33:42):
I chose after being in a verylong marriage and a series of
monogamous relationships thatfelt very controlling.
I chose non-monogamy because Ididn't want to feel controlled
and I wanted to feel like Icould choose what my
relationships looked like and,generally speaking, I feel like

(34:04):
that has been a better route forme.
I mentioned at the beginning ofthis podcast I was recently in
community with a group of peoplewho defined themselves as
polyamory and it really was thefirst time since I began my
non-monogamy journey that I wassort of jarred and questioned.

(34:27):
This community of queer peoplereally had this form of
non-monogamy where you neverknew what was going on and we'd
all go out dancing and thenpeople would end up making out
but then go back to whatevertheir relationships were.

(34:47):
And there wasn't really likethere weren't conversations
taking place between peopleahead of time.
And I had a night where I wasout with a date and it was like
fresh meat in the water and Iwas really jarred by it.
Having sort of my people Ithought were my friends and
community descend on this personand we had been consuming

(35:12):
alcohol and stuff like that andin the moment, well after I'd
had drinks, people asked meconsent oh, do you mind if I
make out with your date?
And I wasn't able to expressmyself fully.
Right, I consented to thesituation but then had feelings
the next day and the response Ilargely would get from people

(35:34):
while in this community, ifanyone was upset with something
that happened on the night out,it was like well, I thought you
were poly, why do you have aproblem with that?
You're supposed to be poly.
And I think this conversationreally helps clarify Polyamory
non-monogamy isn't.
It's not a free for all, it'snot kissing whoever you want or

(35:56):
out with whoever you wantwithout conversations that
really take place ahead of time.
And I think you'd agree in aconsensual situation, right?
Sure, and this has to be asituation where everyone's
clear-minded and able to reallyget in touch with what do I want
and what do I need out ofrelationships, and that's

(36:18):
relationships with yourself,with an intimate partner, and
with friends, right andcommunity.

Effy Blue (36:24):
Sure, absolutely Listen.
There are free for all veryfluid polyamorous collectives,
micro communities that work,right, and it feels like no
one's having conversationsworking.
And they do exist, and thething that they have had a
conversation about at some pointis that that is how they're

(36:46):
going to roll.
That's the nature of that group, right?
But I think, yes, there arecertain polyamorous
relationships where people talkabout every single detail, every
single agreement, every singleboundary, and everything is
processed and detailed and maybeeven written down.
They exist.

(37:07):
And then, on the very, veryother end, you get people who
are, like you know, relationshipanarchists or like this
non-hierarchical, fluid polywhere minimum conversation is
had is just that everybodyagrees that everyone's going to
do whatever they want to do andthat is OK for everyone, right?
There is no better or worse.
There is no one of thestructure that I champion over

(37:29):
another one or recommend overanother one.
It just needs to work for you.
It just needs to be therelationship that you're going
to thrive in, and only you willknow if you're going to thrive
in that kind of relationship andwhat kind of relationship that
you will thrive in, right?
Somebody who is deeply attachedto their autonomy, deeply
attached to their independence.

(37:50):
You know, fluid personality,even fluid agenda, and doesn't
want any constraints or whateverreason might actually thrive in
that kind of open polyamoryversus they might find the kind
of the structure that a lot ofcommunication polyamory stifling
right.
So it's just reallyunderstanding, like you said.

(38:10):
Going back to what you'resaying is you need to understand
what is it that you need?
There was that you want what isit that you want a relationship
to afford you and then pick thepick the style that really
supports that as much as it can.

Right, because within non-monogamy and
polyamory there are multiplestyles and different.
For sure it's a spectrum.
And I guess that's the beautyof relationship styles is that
there is a spectrum.

Effy Blue (38:39):
Spectrum, I would go as far as to say more of a
constellation.
That's the way I think about it, because I think spectrum then
puts everything on a linear kindof form as well, and it's
pretty hard to putnon-monogamous structures in a
linear form.
I tried, and it's really hardbecause I was using it in my
practice to get people toexplain, and it's really kind of

(39:00):
hard.
There is actually, if you lookup a non-monogamy Venn diagram
online, you'll see this crazyVenn diagram that somebody has
created of how these differentrelationships interlocked with
each other and called what it'sthis crazy thing that you can do
For me.
What I find is easier to thinkabout is a constellation.

(39:20):
There are all these differentexpressions of relationships and
they're kind of connected toeach other and you just find
your constellation in the nightsky.
That works for you.

Yeah, I like that.
I like that.
It sounds like it's mostimportant to figure out from the
get-go, and maybe this is agood segue into people who are
listening and really wanting todip their toe in non-monogamy
but feel fearful of maybe endingup on the wrong constellation.
I was in the wrongconstellation and had a wake-up

(39:57):
call right.
I was like this does not makesense to me, nor does it feel
good.
I'm unsettled constantly and Ididn't have the education that I
just received in that there aremany constellations and that if
this is unsettling, it doesn'tmean that I'm not non-monogamous

(40:17):
.
It doesn't mean thatnon-monogamy isn't for me.
It's just that planet maybeisn't my planet.
Exactly and I can see how, forsomeone who's just been
ingrained in monogamy from theget-go but wanting to try
something else, could beintimidated at the idea of

(40:39):
dipping their toe in the waterand trying out non-monogamy.
So maybe we can start talkingabout four beginners, or even
people who are early in theirjourney.
What are some things to do toset yourself up for success in
non-monogamy?

Effy Blue (40:58):
Yes, if you're somebody who's solo and is
looking to venture intonon-monogamy and currently
you're not in a relationship andyou're a solo person that's
venturing, I would say do someresearch, read some books,
listen to some podcasts.
You're listening to one rightnow.
There are a bunch of other onesthat are specifically for

(41:18):
non-monogamy.
Definitely.
My podcast is with my co-host,jekka Misla.
It's called the Curious Foxpodcast.
Multiamary is a.
I think.
Multiamary has been around forabout seven years.
That is an enormous amount ofresource around non-monogamy and
there are a bunch of other ones.
So if you're listening to this,you're probably a listener.

(41:38):
So maybe find some otherpodcasts that are specifically
talking about non-monogamy.
There's some great books outthere.
I'm a big fan of Polysecure.
It's my most recent.
It's the book that I recommendto everyone, of course, the
Ethical Slut, which is themanifesto that is out there, and

(41:59):
what I say about the EthicalSlut is it is not the Gospel,
but it is a book that Irecommend that everybody reads
and has an opinion about.
Your opinion could be it's theworst book that I've ever read
and I don't agree with anythingthat it says.
Totally fine.
Or you could be like oh my God,I'm enlightened, I have a

(42:19):
paradigm shift in my life.
I'm going to change my entirelife because of it.
Right, you're probably going tobe somewhere in the middle.
So my invitation is not to havea specific feeling about it,
but to have an opinion on thatbook.
So the ethical side is a goodone.
So do some research right,understand the bigger concept of
non-monogamy and what's outthere.
Then I would say, before weeven begin dating.

(42:41):
Next I would say, see if you canfind your local community.
Non-monogamous people often bynature are social.
That's one of the reasons whythey non-monogamy appeals to
them.
They like connection, they likepeople, they like variety,
especially on the polyamorous,and they will be your local
community.
I know you're in Portland,definitely Many in Portland.

(43:03):
I'm usually in New York, plentyin New York.
So if you're in a metropolitanarea, I can guarantee that you
have a polyamorous community, anon-monogamous community, and
they're socializing.
And they're not justsocializing over sex parties and
orgies.
They're socializing over gamenights and drinks and book clubs

(43:24):
and things like this, becausethey are people of connection.
So I would really recommend thatyou go and find your local
community and have conversationsabout people's experiences and
ask questions, with consent, ofcourse, what does your
relationship look like?
Why are you choosing that?
What makes you thrive, what aresome of the things that you
struggle with?
And really familiarize yourselfwith people's experiences and

(43:47):
over time, as you read andlisten and connect, it will
reveal for you.
The right constellation willcall you, and I don't mean that
in a spiritual way that soundsreally spiritual, but in a very
practical way.
You will find out oh, thissounds great and this.
I don't know how they do that,I can't imagine myself doing

(44:09):
that.
But as you hear the differentvariations of it, it will reveal
to you what we'll call you.
And that's kind of what I wouldsay.
If you're in a solo journey, ifyou're a couple and you're
interested in opening up, prettymuch the same steps.
Again, do some research, havebroader conversations about it

(44:34):
before you bring it down to yourown relationship.
So, instead of talking aboutwhat does non monogamy like, how
do we open up, who do we date,zoom out and just talk about non
monogamy as this thing, as thisbig topic, right.
So talk about how do you feelabout it, where do you see it
working, where do you see it notworking?
So start big before you bringyou know, come right down to

(44:56):
your relationship.
Similarly, do some research anddiscuss, meet your community
and get some you know, connectand have some conversations Same
and then, before you date,start to design a relationship
that you think you're going tothrive.
So get clear about why do youwant to open this relationship
right.
Get very clear about what'sworking and what you're
celebrating in this relationship, and also get very clear about

(45:19):
what you're looking for as youopen the relationship.
So have those conversations aswell, and then, before you date,
this is something that Irecommend to people and those
who do it really really benefitfrom it, and those who don't do
it come back to me and say Iwish we did this.
So, for about a couple likethis is about discipline that is
going to help you with yourjourney and also just was going

(45:41):
to work with you on a very corenervous system level.
Start to design time veryspecific intentional time, like
you can call it dates right, andI would really recommend you
design three types of time.
One is connection time right,so get into the habit of going
on intentional dates date nights, date days, whatever it is but

(46:02):
set times.
We're going to do this for usto connect.
Talk about what kind ofconnection and how do you want
to feel, right?
Do you want to connect and feelexcited?
Do you want to connect and havea sense of accomplishment?
All these dates are going tolook different, but be really
intentional about thisconnection, the intentional

(46:23):
connection time, because you'regoing to need it, right?
The ability to get reallyconnected.
Next is what I call togetheralone time.
Right, and this is when you areconnecting with yourself and
intentionally temporarilydisconnecting with your partner.
Right, this could look like I'mgoing to do an hour of yoga and
the other person is going tocatch up with reading that

(46:45):
they've been putting up for awhile Now.
What this isn't is I'm going tobe on my phone here and you do
the dishes over there.
Right, this is intentional timethat is set that I'm going to
connect with myself, with mypartner that is separate from me
, but in the same space.
This is going to allow you totolerate this connection and

(47:07):
separateness, and you're goingto need that muscle, right?
So you?
You know something that I dowith with my partner we go out
dancing together and we danceseparately, so we'll go to a
club or we'll go to a danceclass.
We do a lot of intentionalmovement and dance and then
we'll say, okay, this is atogether alone time, so we'll be
in the same club or we'll be inthe same dance space and we'll

(47:28):
dance separately.
We'll have our own time.
Maybe we'll dance with otherpeople, but we're intentionally
not connecting with each otherand we also not making bids for
connection.
We're tolerating thisconnection and actually seeing
if it's an opportunity to findconnection with ourselves, maybe
some self reflection, you know,like something, something good,

(47:49):
right, we're looking for thejoy in the disconnection.
And then, of course, we weconnect back again.
So that's your together alonetime.
And the third is alone time.
Again, this is intentional timethat you spend with yourself,
separate from each other.
You go and take up a hobby, yougo and discover a new museum,
you connect with friends thatyou haven't in a long time

(48:11):
because you've been in this, inthis duo.
And that's really important,because it is going to be almost
impossible for the two peopleto go and date at the same time.
The chances are one person isgoing to be on a date and the
other one the other person isgoing to be at home, right,
you're going to have to get usedto spending time on your own
that feels good.
You don't want to be sittingaround yearning for the other

(48:34):
person, worried about the otherperson you know, engulfed in
kind of about the other, whatthe other person is doing.
You got to get used to spendingquality time with yourself,
doing things that feed you, thatyou can thrive, right?
So you do that before you evenstart dating.
This is a discipline about howyou manage your time and how you
manage your connection anddisconnection.
Once you've done that for acouple of times ideally on

(48:56):
weekly basis right, your nervoussystem is going to look very
different than before.
You do that.
You are going to get used tothis idea of connection,
disconnection, connection,disconnection without the world
falling apart.
Because where I see what peoplestruggle the most when we dig,
dig, dig down all the stories isconnection with disconnection,
the pain of this connection,inability to tolerate this

(49:20):
connection and not being able toconnect with themselves or not
being able to connect with theother person after they've been
connecting with somebody else.
Right, these are the coreemotional muscles that's
required for any relationshipand absolutely essential for non
monogamy.
Once you've done that, there'salso a bonus in that.
What you've done is you'vecarved out some time.

(49:43):
The time that you carved outfor yourself is the time now you
can allocate to dates.
Because what happens is, if youdon't do that, when you start
dating you go to carve out timefrom somewhere and you
immediately start to carve outtime from your core relationship
.
What does that do?
Upset people, of course, but ifyou have actually carved that

(50:06):
time out throughout this process, it doesn't feel so painful, it
doesn't feel so urgent, itdoesn't feel like someone's
being wronged or being takenfrom.
Then you can start to say okay,during my alone time I'm
actually going on a date and theother person is like oh great,
in my alone time I'm going toconnect with an old friend.
Does that make sense?

No, it makes a ton of sense.
I think that taking time fromsomeone that has existed would
be painful and feel like you'regiving them less and nobody
wants to feel like suddenly I'mgetting less in a relationship.
Nobody wants to feel like that,right?

(50:48):
Of course that makes a lot ofsense Also building those
muscles of feeling secure anddisconnection, Because, and
perhaps where things go wrong ina monogamous relationship, we
disconnect.
We have to do life, havemoments of disconnection and

(51:12):
that can be.
I know for myself, I have a lotof abandonment issues.
So when I and I'm very aware,yes, I'm doing therapy around
them, but I'm very aware of them, and so disconnection can send
me into high anxiety Like this,feels like someone's leaving me
right, and so learning and doingthe work, the self soothing and

(51:36):
reassuring and finding joy,even in those moments and in my
own like, instead of it justbeing disconnection, this is
time to reconnect with myselfand, hey, maybe get to do some
of those things I can't do whenI'm with my partner, right, yeah
, and finding those moments ofdisconnection exciting, building

(51:57):
that tool, those tools, thosemuscles.
It makes a lot of sense to me.

Effy Blue (52:02):
Yeah, just so that you know, people say I have
abandonment issues all the time,right, yeah, and we kind of
like we joke about it or we sortof brush it off.
Let me just put context, andyou feel this.
So I'm just going to providecontext for people to understand
what that means.
When people struggle withabandonment, they're struggling

(52:23):
with a nervous system thatequates abandonment with literal
death, like only because so itis.
The attachment is our corenumber one, first ever defense
mechanism we're born with.
A human infant is born 100%dependent, with zero boundaries.

(52:43):
That is just how humans aremade, right.
Then we?
The only thing that we know isthat in order to survive crime
directive, survival we need toattach to somebody, a caregiver.
We know that this ispre-programmed to us as a
survival mechanism and thatattachment, that first
attachment, is what keeps usalive.

(53:04):
Literally, a human infantmatures way too slowly.
Three, four, five year old,total dirt cannot take care of
itself.
If you abandon that child, it'sgoing to die, right?
So in our nervous system wehave a very clear message of
what I call a piece of code inour operating system that says
abandonment at a certain age isdeath, and we come up with all

(53:26):
sorts of strategies to maintainthat attachment right.
And when somebody has anabandonment issue and I'm
throwing air coats here it isthat they have a struggle with
that very core piece of code andas an adult it's still
triggering like a child.
So when they think ofabandonment they think they're
going to die.
So we just need to be reallycompassionate with those people.

(53:47):
We need to understand thatthey're not doing the things
they're doing because they wantto be difficult or demanding or
evil or spoiled.
They're doing it because theythink they're going to die on
some level and it just needs ourextra compassion, extra
attention to help them heal andsupport them.

I really appreciate it.
I guess I've never had the wordsto explain it that way and I do
think that it's probably a termthat gets overused, but it's
also severely misunderstood.
When my abandonment issues aretriggered, my body goes into
fight or flight and even that'soverused.
But I try to explain it to mypartner as it's suddenly like my

(54:29):
body is reacting on a level oflike bombs are dropping around
me.
Right, I feel like somethinghorrible and nightmarish is
about to happen and learning tooverride that and realize, well,
I'm going to be safe and I'mgoing to be fine and life is
going to go on and nothinghorrific is happening.

(54:49):
And turning that reaction offis very hard and I think that it
is something, a muscle that canbe built, and I'm learning how
to do that, which has beenamazing.
Like for a long time, assomeone with those issues, I
just assumed we all reacted thatway when relationships were
struggling or coming apart.

(55:10):
And then one day I woke up andI'm like oh no, not everybody
feels this way.
It's unique to my situation andin non-monogamous relationships
, I think it's super importantto know what your stuff is and
to be able to communicate thatwith your partners.
So they understand how to beconscious of your stuff and also

(55:33):
I think, like I feel like it'svery important for me to take
accountability for my own stuffand ask for what I need, and if
I'm with a partner who cannotgive that to me, then that is
not a relationship that I canmaintain.

Effy Blue (55:51):
And I think it's important to diversify your
support system If you haveabandonment struggles or any
kind of relational struggles.
But abandonment is a big oneand, by the way, if we all react
to abandonment, it is in ourcore system.
It is a very human thing.
So, in a similar way, if we gointo a personal development, if
we go species development,abandonment and rejection from

(56:15):
the pact meant that you died inthe wild because you couldn't
sleep so early human majority ofour human species development,
abandonment and rejection alsomeant death because you couldn't
survive in the wild.
So it's very much wired intoour evolutionary system that
abandonment is scary and it hasconsequences.

(56:36):
So some people feel it a lotmore severely, like it sounds
like you do.
Some people don't feel it.
But nobody's blasé aboutabandonment.
No one's like I'm going to beokay.
Some people tolerate it a lotbetter.
But it is not something thatyou just like brush off easily,
just to give you some context.
And the other piece I wanted tosay is also, if you are somebody

(56:59):
who feels it acutely, likeyou're saying you do, one of the
things that I really recommendis to diversify your support
system.
Your partner cannot be the onlyperson, because that's actually
counterintuitive.
You want to be connected tomultiple people so that
abandonment from one persondoesn't feel so severe.

(57:19):
You can have all sorts ofrelationships.
You can have friendships, youcan have close to your family if
this is available to you.
Mentors, mentees, colleagues,peers, whatever those
relationships are.
It's really important to have adiverse set of relationships in
your life that will support youwith your abandonment issues,
more than having one partner whoyou have said I need you to

(57:42):
support me with this.
They're your only source ofsupport, because that's going to
kick back, because anythingthey do, then you're just going
to be carrying that relationshipwith kid gloves, because that's
going to be the most importantrelationship for your existence
and you don't want that.

I agree.
Yeah, that resonates and in someways, I think, is also why I
have been attracted tonon-monogamous relationships.
Right it oddly enough and Iguess not oddly enough now that
you explain it it felt moresecure to me and I have other.

(58:20):
I'm very fortunate.
I'm very fortunate in thefriend and community department,
but I feel like you've given areally fantastic starter pack
for people, whether they aresingle and wanting to try
non-monogamy, or couples andtrying to open up, which are two

(58:41):
very different experiences andtwo very like totally different
podcasts, as well episodes andtopics, because it can be very
difficult if you started out ina monogamous relationship to
open up and it can be verytouchy and a fragile

(59:02):
relationship can be fractured bythat, but sometimes it's also,
I think, the thing that can helpa relationship become healthy
or healthier.
So, listeners, if you havestayed till now, which I hope
you have this would be anexcellent opportunity for you to
send me questions aboutspecifically that are you in a
relationship and you wanna openup and I know some of you are,

(59:26):
because I have gotten messagesfrom you in the past.
What would you wanna ask Effieabout that?
What are some questions youhave?
Are there any final thoughtsyou want to leave my listeners
and me with before we wrap thisup.

Effy Blue (59:43):
Here is what I wanna say Among the myriad of
relationships non-monogamy canafford, the most important of
them all is the one withyourself.
So cultivate that relationship,above all, and then approach
your relationship from thatplace.
And that relationship withyourself is not going to be

(01:00:05):
fixed, right, because we get tothis idea of this idea of a love
yourself, which is somethingthat I question a lot.
We get a lot of this messagelike you must love yourself, you
must love yourself, you mustlove yourself.
There's a big fee.
It's not that available to us,especially for women in a
capitalist, patriarchal society.

(01:00:25):
Loving yourself is not an easyfeat, right?
What I really encourage peopleto do is develop a relationship
with yourself.
Start with tolerating yourself,start with being compassionate
with yourself.
Start with imagining what itwould be to love yourself and
realize that some days you'renot gonna love yourself, some
days you are.
Sometimes you're not gonna likeyourself and sometimes you're
gonna adore yourself and thinkyou're the best things in sliced

(01:00:48):
bread.
Right, it is just allowing anongoing relationship and not
judging.
That is really important placeto start.
And then from that, with thatmuscle, that understanding, that
insight, that self-connection,you can go into all sorts of
relationships that will makesense for you.
Monogamous, non-monogamous,open polyamory, whatever,

(01:01:11):
whatever calls you, you willthrive in If you cultivate that
relationship muscle withyourself, first and foremost.

Annette Benedetti (01:01:18):
That's relationship with yourself.
That's one that can be achallenge, but I think is a
worthwhile endeavor for sure.
I often tell people that mymost important relationship is
the one that I have with myself.
That's been a journey.

Effy Blue (01:01:34):
So there's Tina Horn, which is a great.
She's a sex educator and shedoes a lot of talks.
She has a whole talk on howeverybody's polyamorous because
our relationship with ourselvescounts, so that I find a kind of
an interesting twist on thingsas well, and the point that
she's making is that therelationship with ourselves

(01:01:55):
should be as important any otherrelationship.
Therefore, we are allpolyamorous, so that's just
something to leave you with.

I love that.
Thank you for sharing that, andcan you give my listeners,
before we wrap this up, arundown on how they can get in
touch with you, how they canwatch you, how they can connect
with you virtually?

Effy Blue (01:02:15):
EffieBullewcom is my website.
That's EFFY blueliketheskycom.
Have a look through the site Ifyou're interested in looking
for support around yourtransition into a version of
non-monogamous relationship andit's a non-traditional
relationship, so I work withpeople who are transitioning
into non-monogamy also blendedfamilies, platonic co-parenting

(01:02:36):
anything that is not yourtraditional sort of couple
though I do have a lot of thoseclients as well, but that's kind
of where my passion is.
So, effiebullewcom from there,you can book a 20 minute mutual
assessment call so we can talkabout what's going on with you.
And, if I can help, I alsoreally recommend you check out
the Curious Fox podcast.
We cover love, sex andrelationships week after week.

(01:02:58):
We talk a lot aboutnon-monogamy.
My co-host and I are both queer,non-monogamous women who both
do this stuff from aprofessional point of view but
also live it in our lives and weshare a lot of that stuff.
And then that's we are.
Curiousfoxescom is the websitethat goes with the podcast and

(01:03:19):
we have a lot of blog articlesthere.
We have a lot of videos.
Curious Fox used to be anin-person community in Brooklyn,
new York, and we used to do alot of events and socials and
workshops and that kind of stuffand we recorded a bunch of that
and that's all on the websiteand those are, I would say, the
main spaces.

(01:03:40):
So for me, feblucom for endlessresource on this stuff.
We are curiousfoxescom orCurious Fox podcast wherever you
listen to podcasts.

Yeah, check it out.
I did check out the website andit's pretty awesome.
So take some time to go there.
Take some time to listen.
If you guys want to connectwith me, you know where to find
me.
I'm on Instagram and Facebook.
Locker Room Talk and Shots.
She explores life.
You can find me on TikTok atLocker Room Talk podcast website
Locker Room Talk what is it?

(01:04:10):
Lockerroomtalkpodcastcom.
And don't forget to watch thispodcast on YouTube at Annette
Benedetti.
You can listen and watch andyou can actually see who we are
and send me your voicemail.
Thank you so much for joiningme today, effie, and I look
forward to talking to you in thefuture and to my listeners.

(01:04:32):
I'll see you in the locker room.
Cheers my loop.

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