“I’m a lawyer by trade, politician by practice, and an academic by accident.” These are the musings of the remarkable, and I have to say, charming, Max Sherman.
In Episode 89, we interviewed a young and energetic 89 years old, Max Sherman. Max's life has been significantly influenced by women. But one in particular has shaped who he is today. In 1953 Max was among 4 high school boys conducting a church service at a local jail when he first laid eyes on a Gene Alice, who was there with her fold up field organ. And their love affair still thrives to this day...
In 2002 Gene Alice started noticing that something was different and soon after was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. Through the inevitable progression of the disease Max and Gene Alice’s journey together is now chronicled in the beautiful and poignant memoir, “Releasing the Butterfly: A Love Affair in Four Acts”. It's a caregiver's story and journey. An honest, heart wrenching and insightful look at not only the disease but of a bond that could not be broken.
Max shares many of the insights he has gained as a caregiver, and thoughts on how to maintain connection even while grieving the losses of the fading abilities of a spouse living with Alzheimer’s.
Max boasts a rather formidable body of work which includes: Texas State Senator, President of West Texas State University, and Dean of the LBJ School of Public Affairs. His leadership roles also include President of the National Association of Schools of Public Affairs and Vice President of the Harry S. Truman Scholarship Foundation. AND recently he was honored as an 80 over 80 recipients.
Don and I had the best conversation chatting with the author of this ode to a 70 year love-affair that will warm your heart and make you want to fall in love all over again!
Be a ROAR-ior!! JOIN THE R.O.A.R. MOVEMENT for quality long term care! Visit the No Country For Old People Website for more information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Don Priess (00:00):
When the world has gotcha down, and Alzheimer's
(00:04):
sucks. It's an equal opportunitydisease that chips away at
everything we hold dear. And todate, there's no cure. So until
there is we continue to fightwith the most powerful tool in
our arsenal. Love. This is LoveConquers Alz, a real and really
positive podcast that takes adeep dive into everything.
(00:25):
Alzheimer's, The Good, the Bad,and everything in between. And
now, here are your hosts Susiesinger, Carter, and me, Don
Priess.
Max Sherman (00:40):
Good afternoon. I'm Susie Singer Carter.
Don Priess (00:43):
And I'm Don Priess.
And this is love conquers allcalls. Hello, Susan.
Max Sherman (00:48):
Donald, how you doing?
Don Priess (00:50):
I'm swell. What is the word? What do you don't?
Well, you know, I mean, that's amatter of opinion. But I think
I'm swell. So
Max Sherman (01:00):
I am. I am swell ish. Yeah, yes. I'm swell ish.
Yes. Yeah. Well, it's been anonstop and busy and busy doing
things and like, we're we areboth busy. But let's see what we
had. We had my two Rugrats forthe weekend. I had. I was, I had
(01:22):
a three year old, four year oldand my 16 month old
granddaughters for the weekend,and I am exhausted and and like
the house was like a, like ahurricane happened. Like, I
don't know what happened, Ithink is it possible to have too
many toys? Apparently,
Don Priess (01:43):
it's not. The amazing thing is it's literally
a disaster area within the first11 seconds that distribute the
toys at a rate that is actuallyhumanly impossible.
Max Sherman (01:57):
And yet, and yet it's done before our very eyes
before our very eyes. But um,yeah, it's pretty extraordinary
and skillful. I might add. Yeah,so but but loads of fun. We had
a slumber party. We had, youknow, so all those fun things,
girly girl stuff, and, you know,all that things. So I enjoyed
(02:18):
that. And on the on the businessside, where we're, we're at the
finish line of our documentary,No Country for Old people. And
we're at that point where we're,you know, bravely taking notes
from strangers and others. Andso difficult, so difficult to
(02:41):
hear other people's, you know,it's like writing a book or like
our our guests. That's going tobe on in a couple of minutes.
I'm sure he's had the samefeeling when people come in and
start chopping your your babyup. And you're like,
Don Priess (02:57):
wow, stop. And that's your opinion.
Max Sherman (03:00):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, yeah. But, but that'swhere we're at. And we're being
brave. We're being brave biggirls and big boys and listening
with open ears, and open mindsish. And that's what we're
doing. Absolutely. What I willremind you that we're still
raising money for the finishingfunds, and it's all tax
deductible. If I'm sure you're,you know, if you listen to us,
(03:23):
you probably know this already.
But, you know, we would, we'retaking donations still through
the national consumer voice forlong term care. And they are
incredible. And they are ourpartners, and it's 100% tax
deductible. And, but we're veryclose to getting this out there
(03:45):
for everybody. We hope that itmakes a big huge change. And
we're proud of our work. So
Don Priess (03:51):
absolutely. Because we're not doing this for
ourselves. We're doing this foryou know, the we're trying to
everybody, save the saveeveryone from going through what
Susie went through and what whatcountless people are going
through right now, every minuteso as
Max Sherman (04:07):
as we speak, we need to change our long term
care system. Now, so stat,right, but that's what we do.
It's like what when somethingwhen you go through a crisis of
any kind or a challenge, andthen you know, you learn then
you I think that that isimportant to pay it forward.
(04:28):
Right? And so that other peoplecan benefit from your
experience, like, guard nextguest right,
Don Priess (04:37):
indeed. So
Max Sherman (04:38):
Don, why don't you?
I know, why don't you do alovely introduction, and then
we'll get into it.
Don Priess (04:45):
I will do that.
Right now. I'm a lawyer by tradepolitician by practice and an
academic by accident. These arethe musings of the remarkable
Max Sherman, a former TexasState Senator president of West
Texas State University and Deanof the LBJ School of Public
Affairs. His leadership rolesalso include President of the
National Association of Schoolsof Public Affairs and vice
(05:08):
president of the Harry S. TrumanScholarship Foundation. And
recently, he was honored as an80 over 80 recipient. Now a
young and energetic 89 years oldMax Sherman's life has been
significantly influenced bywomen, but one in particular has
shaped who he is today. In 1953,Max was among four high school
(05:29):
boys conducting a church serviceat a local jail when he first
laid eyes on Jean Alice, who wasthere with her fold up field
Oregon, and their love affairstill thrives to this day. But
in 2002, Gene Atlas startednoticing that something was
different and soon after, wasdiagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Through the inevitableprogression of the disease Max
(05:50):
and Gene Alice's journeytogether is now chronicled in
the beautiful and poignantmemoir, releasing the butterfly,
a love affair in four acts. Andhonest, heart wrenching and
insightful look at not only thedisease, but a bond that could
not be broken. And we are soexcited to have the author of
this ode to a 70 year loveaffair with us today. So let's
say hello to Max Sherman. Hello,Max. Hello, Max.
Max Sherman (06:17):
Hi, Don says we I'm delighted to be with you.
Thank you, we're delighted to bewith you. Everything about who
you are, and your your love yourincredible love. lifelong love
resonates so deeply with withus. And in your compassionate
(06:40):
caregiving is just so beautifulto to read about and to learn
about and, and just just reallygoes with our, our show love
conquers all, because that'sreally what you did, you use the
love, and you're still using thelove, right?
Unknown (06:57):
When we were together just a short time before, we're
talking here. And we weresitting there and she has her
head there and, and so I'velearned if in my raspy voice, I
would sing to her. So I wassinging old song that everybody
knows, and I'm not very good atit. But I said morning as
(07:18):
Robocon in the first morning,she likes or even raises it up
and opens those hazel eyes, andI just melt. And then we've
learned in Alzheimer's, you haveto read different signals. And
one of the signals that we'velearned is that the way that we
(07:38):
kiss now is a little differentthan when we used to kiss on the
lips. And really, anybodytalking to it, she will. That's
three big kisses. I got five ofthose big kisses this morning
after singing that song. Livestill goes on. And it's great.
(07:58):
We've learned to make love in adifferent way. And absolutely
every moment is just as preciousas it was when we first started.
And I had that first little peckon the lips that she gave me
when we were just a bunch ofkids
Don Priess (08:15):
definition of a silver lining,
Max Sherman (08:18):
ya know, it's, it's so beautiful. And it's such a
great, it's a it is the, the itsopponent your poster child for
for the best kind of approach tothis kind of journey. You know,
and it took and I know fromreading your book and also
listening to you talk on otherinterviews, you know that it is
(08:41):
a learning curve, right? Andthat, you know, we and it takes
it takes that, you know, thetripping over ourselves and
realizing that okay, this isn'tworking. Because, you know, I
always say that when my mom wasdiagnosed, I was I was certain
that I was going to be the onethat cures this for you other
people can't but I will writeuntil you realize that that
(09:03):
monster is way stronger than allof us. And now I'm you know
going to have and then I figuredout how to lean into my mom into
every stage and learn how to recommunicate with her like you're
doing with with Jean Alice,which is like it is so rewarding
and so beautiful. And yeah, Ijust really, really compliment
(09:25):
you on on going going thedistance the way you are.
Unknown (09:30):
She could I maybe just pick up on that because is I've
been asked to talk about thebook with different groups
senior citizens and and we livein a senior retirement
community. It's a wonderfulplace. But most people probably
here because somewhere in theirlives, either a parent or
grandparent or someone close hasbeen touched by Alzheimer's and
(09:54):
everyone's afraid Well, it mighthappen to me or it might happen
close to me. And so I I don'tthink we're ever prepared for
it. And in is I met with thesegroups. That chapter I think is
chapter 46. And it's one page inthe regular page books. And it's
an another in the large printedbook. But it's only about three
(10:17):
pages. It's very short. But it'smakes the point that you were
just talking about, because Iwas making all the decisions. I
picked out the clothes she wore,I pick the food that we ate, I
took us wherever we needed togo. I chose what we watched on
television, I was really tryingto be the fixer. And I can fix
(10:38):
this Well, I'm not going to fixit, I finally realized. And I
said that what was happening isthat I was stealing my love from
her nibble by nibble little bylittle by doing that every time.
And I had to learn that I wasnot the drill sergeants. I was
not the one who said Get In Linestep up, you're going too slow,
(10:59):
you're going too fast. And allof a sudden, it just shocked me
that all I needed to do was justshift gears. Nothing big. It's
like making love and then theworld of Alzheimer's is shifting
yours. And mine was Jeannie,would you like chocolate or
vanilla ice cream? Would youlike to watch the news? Or would
(11:21):
you like to watch a musicaltonight? Would you like to wear
this blouse or this blouse? Italmost always she would say, Oh,
you decide. It wasn't up. Butthe most important thing, the
most important thing, theheadline of that chapter is she
wanted to be asked, because shewas cine she was teen Alice. She
(11:44):
was not a child. She was not aperson in the army 100, the
drill sergeant, she hit herunique personality. And that to
me is the chapter in the bookthat was my wake up call that I
had to do it differently. Andall it was is shifting gears in
love making is shifting yours.
And the little is a kiss just asmuch as a big smack around the
(12:09):
lips. It's a beautiful kiss. Ilove every one of them. I would
not ever take one of them back.
And it's different than it wasbut you put your finger on it.
Max Sherman (12:23):
I love that. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I think I think
there's a lot of consistency inthat journey with people that
have, you know, decided to stepback. And really take a look at
at how we're interacting withour person with the person that
we love. And looking to findthem at the stage that they're
(12:44):
at, like I could find my mom, Icould still, you know, we shared
music too. My mom was a singer.
And so music became reallyimportant like you did with you.
And Jean. So I think that, youknow, I related to that as well.
And that it is like you saidit's magic. And you know it is
it lasts till the very bitterend. And and it made my mom so
happy. And it really was our ourlove talk, you know, and then we
(13:11):
also shared a sense of humor.
And so we, I would always comein with something, you know, to
catch her off. And she'd give methat big old smile, like, you
know, even when she lost herability to just to articulate
words. But she was talking tome, I saw it. I knew it. I just
(13:31):
I would I became I became thewords for her. Right? Yeah. And
that's and that is it. There'snothing more beautiful than
that. Because, you know, when weaccept as we accept the person,
and also what you said, likeacknowledging that they are
still who they are, is theirsoul as who they are inside. And
(13:54):
so we need to we can respect it.
We don't need to, but we can,and it's better.
Unknown (14:00):
When you know you, again, you've probably had this
experience with your mother. Butone of the things even again
this morning, when we have thesemoments where we're really
connecting in that way, and it'sall of a sudden, she doesn't
talk now. But all of a suddenshe's really talking, making
attempts to talk gettingsomething out there. Because you
(14:22):
can tell that you've resonatedyou touch something. And the
same is true. And the reasonthat I started this morning by
saying to her is that she's apianist. She's an organist.
She's a beautiful musician, andmusic actually reaches in and
when those things happen, sheresponds. In our senior living
(14:44):
facility last night a woman dida series of things, composers
and played the beautiful pianoand finished up with a Scott
Joplin number 10 He used to playScott Joplin all the time. And I
would always ask her what playthe entertainer in Boy, she
would pound that piano and playthe entertainer. And probably
one of the, if we play theentertainer, she perks up and
(15:07):
gets up and looks in the mirrorlooks at me, and she's right
there with you. And I think thatI think we don't always grasp
the potential of music isreaching into mind that we don't
understand. As I understand it,we don't now know how it all
works. We have some ideas andsciences worked on it. But we're
(15:29):
still trying to figure it out.
But you do know, there arecertain things that connect, and
those are there be treasured.
Max Sherman (15:37):
I agree. You know, I loved what you in your book,
when you talk about, you know,there's parts that you spoke
about your wife on in thebeginning stages, and her
experience of the thosebeginning stages and how she
described them. And I alwaysfind it fascinating because I
used to say, my mom and I wereso close. And I would I wanted,
(16:00):
I missed I kind of missed mymoment, because I was such an
throes of it have to really sitdown and say, What are you
feeling? Like? What is this?
Like? You know, and you talkedabout the fog and that
connection? You know? Can youtell our audience like that part
of it? What, what's your wife inthe beginning stages she
(16:21):
starred, she really articulateda lot of what it felt like when
she would get lost, or right.
And that I found that I thinkthat's so important for us who
don't have to really understandthat the fluidity of it because
it comes and goes in thebeginning, correct? Well,
Unknown (16:40):
I think so I think, you know, she really was the one who
put her finger on it about 12 to14 years before it hit like a
tsunami. And just overpowered asshe said, you know, we we built
a new home when we both came toAustin, Texas. I was needed the
LBJ School and she was head ofthe Conference Center. And we
(17:03):
had very active lives. So we inDecember usually had about five
different events in our homewhere we had different groups in
from academia from, frombusiness from law, because I was
a lawyer in the early days, onand on. So we had these
different groups in largenumbers, and the house was built
to entertain. And after we satdown to have a glass of wine,
(17:28):
about New Year's Eve of 2002.
She said, You know, it's thefirst time that I've had time
trouble remembering all thenames, and she could remember
hundreds of names and new peoplecome in, she would greet them by
their names have their firstname. And she said all of a
sudden is the first time. Andit's the first time I've felt
the pressure of getting preparedfor these events. Because she
(17:50):
used to just love it as we hadour assignments. And she did get
put the food together. And myjob was to clean the windows and
polish the floors and do allthat. But she said it's the
first time so we were able toget an appointment at the Brain
Health Center in Dallas, in 2003in January. And we went up and
(18:12):
they did a two, two dayevaluation. And so they had all
this material. And the maindoctor, there is a very
distinguished doctor atSouthwest medical school. And
he's the one that supervise andso out of that we started doing
regular checkups, but she wouldalways every year we would met
(18:33):
with Dr. Hart. And he'd beenasked questions and he had about
four interns with him to teachhim how to work with people who
were struggling with dementiaand Alzheimer's. And he's a
great, great, great doctor. Andso I got a chance to watch it
over the years a very thing youasked him about. And one of the
things he said that to me iscritical is he said, you know,
(18:56):
she shouldn't be getting worse,but she's not. She still has
impeccable appearance. When Iasked her a question, she looks
me right in the eye. And he saidas long as that's there, they
said we're rare, maybe issueswhere she takes the
grandchildren to school and getslost. Or she's going to meet
(19:18):
some friends and takes a turnthe wrong way. So those were the
little signals and she talkedabout those. But in by and
large, she felt competent. Andthen she is an organist in our
church. The Oregon there isactually named for her because
it's a big, big beautiful Oregonand she was a great church
organist. And we dedicated it onher birthday in 2014. And we had
(19:41):
the fella who does a Watermakerorgy at Oregon and Philadelphia
it came down to play for it. Andshe was in the audience of
church was full of peoplefriends from yours from our
church. She was in her elementand And we did two events with
friends musicians, one timefriends and x. And then one
(20:03):
month later, is when all hellhit. And then suddenly, the
ticker flare up because she hadbeen Ojai going strong, loving
every moment of it, boom, all ofa sudden, that whatever triggers
in the mind hit and that's whenI shattered a femur and had to
(20:25):
go to the hospital for three orfour weeks to recover. And get
back to it, our kids had to makethe decision for her to. And I
think it's important for yourlisteners, because I think I am
a person who's done things I ama fixer. And I probably if I
hadn't shattered the femur, wemight not have made the move we
(20:47):
did for her to have goodprofessional care, I might have
tried to put it off and put itoff and put it all. But all of a
sudden, I'm not there, that ourkids had to deal with it. So I
think one of the dangers for forall of us here are caregivers is
that we think we can fix it. AndI will have to admit, I plead
(21:07):
guilty. I plead guilty. I pleadguilty. I thought I could fix
it. And, and all of a sudden, Ihad to realize I could not fix
it. But I had to live with it wehad to live with we had to love
with it. And you talk yourprogram is about love. Love is
so critical, absolutely criticalto how you deal with a person
(21:30):
who's struggling as you'restruggling. In many ways. We
both thought that maybe life wasover. And maybe I'm talking too
much. But the first thing Iwrote very first thing I wrote.
I'm on hospice, I'm on herdeathbed. My family's all around
me, because I thought our liveswere over. And and they asked me
(21:54):
some question. And I'm notreally sure what I'm saying. And
this is all fictional. It's justin my mind. And all of a sudden
I see a stage floating overhead.
And I say, Well, maybe that'sit. And all of a sudden, I
decided I can write about it infiction is not in reality. So I
(22:17):
took the stage and I tookThornton Wilder's play our town,
and I created myself as George.
And I created Jean, Alice'sEmily. So almost everything that
was written originally waswritten for fictional
characters. And the psychiatristor the therapist was really the
stage manager out of our town,never dreamed it, never thought
(22:39):
I would do that. And all of asudden, it becomes the vehicle.
And you have to find a vehicle,that how you live with it, and
how you make it work. And itevolved. And maybe a little
later, as we talk, I'll tell astory because one of the things
that scares the hell out of meExcuse my language, is that the
(23:00):
stigma that no one wants to talkabout it. No one wants to talk
about it. So we say oh, she'sjust forgetting, oh, she didn't
remember. And we kind of put itoff and we put it off. And then
all of a sudden, you realizeit's more than that. I can't fix
it. And I'll come back to thestigma question in a moment. But
(23:21):
I'm gonna rattled on for awhile, but I just think those
are critical, critical issues.
Max Sherman (23:30):
Right? No, and that's exactly why I made my mom
in the girl because I was therewas. I mean, and I think also
there's the stigma comes frommisunderstanding and a lack of
education, and a lot and thatlack of education comes from
ageism, and because people don'twant to look at it, and it
frightens them. And so it'seasier to just to
(23:52):
compartmentalize it and say,well, they don't remember. So
that's it, you know, I mean, Italked about my brother when
Mama was first diagnosed, andyou know, he would say, I'd say,
why don't you come and see hermore often what she doesn't
remember, you know? Well, I'msure you understand how silly
that is, you know, it's like,yeah, and it's, they they do
(24:15):
remember, they remember here,and so, it's very important for
them to have that support. Butbut it's also so misunderstood.
You know, it's just looked at insuch a surface way. And so that
it's easy to dismiss and it'salso I you know, and I
understand that it is difficultfor people to face it. Some
(24:38):
people aren't strong enough, Iguess right. Now give
Unknown (24:42):
you an example if I may, because it's a different
area they were talking about,but it was my wake. It was what
helped me to work through it. Iwas asked to moderate a panel
between Bill and Judith moreyears in there. nerves are set
and cope. And it was at the LBJLibrary here in Austin, at the
(25:05):
LBJ School in LBJ Library. Andwe had 1000 people in the
audience. And they were in therethat evening, the issue was to
talk about addiction. And howpeople become addicted because
Coke, Moyers and becomingaddicted, almost died in Harlem
in a crack house. And he'swritten books about it. It was
(25:26):
all their own the point ofstigma. Judith Moyers told a
story that night, that was awake up call for me. When she
talked about breast cancer. Shesaid for many, many years, no
one would talk about breastcancer. And all of a sudden,
people did. Eddie Ford, GeraldFord's wife talked about having
(25:48):
breast cancer. Judith Moyerstalked about having breast
cancer. So what happens today,we have six granddaughters, no
grandsons, all granddaughters.
We have one more in the hopperright now, a great grand coming.
Another girl have all thesegirls. What did those young
girls do to whoever may havejust finished college last year,
they come out and putfundraisers on, they put on
(26:10):
their pink sweaters, they pinkshirts, and they have a month,
and they dedicated to raisingmoney for breast cancer. And
there was not there was a timewhen no one would talk about it.
If you can get if you can get itout of the closet and get it out
there, then I believe it's goingto be up here. I think I commend
what you guys are doing and beendoing it for 25 years, get it
(26:33):
out of the closet, talk aboutit. And you're gonna help find
ways eventually to deal with itfor the caregiver, and also for
the person needing the care.
Max Sherman (26:46):
Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I mean,
that's, that's what we aim todo. And I think there's a lot of
us now than there ever wasbefore. You know, I know, my mom
had Alzheimer's for 16 years.
And when I first you know, heardof it, I was I had preconceived
ideas and stereotype, you knowabout it. And I thought, Oh, my
God, my, my, I thought I had toprotect my mom, they people
(27:10):
would not be understanding. And,you know, I, I learned, it took
me a little while but I learnedthat people you know, when you
when you educate people, they'remuch more they there. They are
understanding they can beunderstanding and more than you
think that they are or wouldever be. And so that was very,
(27:30):
that was enlightening and alsoreconfirming for me to find out
how many people were actuallymuch more empathetic and
compassionate than I thoughtthat they would be. And I think,
you know, so it really showed methat if you educate people give
them opportunity to to step up,they will.
Unknown (27:54):
I think it may be in in the book. But one of the another
wake up call for me is that whenJean Alice was first down there,
I was told to follow in I'm alawyer, I've given a lot of
advice to people that theydidn't follow. And then they got
in trouble. And then they reallyneeded me and I made a lot more
money. But because they didn'tfollow professional advice. So
(28:18):
when I was advised not to seeJean Alice when she went down to
memory care. So for threemonths, I did not see her three
months. In later when COVIDcomes along, we go six months
without seeing each other sixmonths. It's one hell of a life
to have to live through. That onthe first go round. I called
(28:38):
every morning at 10am Everyevening and 6am what I was told
what happened happened, oh, Max,Max, Max, you got to come and
get me I shouldn't be here, Ishould be with you. I have to
get my clothes packed. Icouldn't be with you. And
there's a story in there by ajudge who had with his mother,
she wanted to be birth. So youhave to learn to let it happen
(29:00):
and let her realize that that isher home. We still are there
every moment in love and spirit.
But you have to learn that, thatthat's where she is. But when I
used to go down there were threewomen who said in wheelchairs.
And they always had their headsdown. And you thought well,
they're, they're notincompetent, or they're sleeping
or whatever. And we had a littleShih Tzu dog. And so the church
(29:22):
organist in our church got herto go down and play the piano
with him one time when she wasmuch earlier stages. And so
they're playing the piano tohave them sitting side by side
in the activities room. And I'msitting by one of those women
who never raised her head. I'venever seen an eraser head. Do
(29:43):
you not know when she can raiseher head? And I'm holding this
little black lemon pounds hitsthe dog in my arms. And all of a
sudden, someone is petting thedog. There's a hand petting the
dog, and I'm scared to death, noidea what's going on. And it's
that woman who did not raise herhead, how she knew that dog was
(30:06):
there, I do not know. Butthere's something going on in
the mind of all those peoplethat we do not understand. And I
think if you can allow yourselfto experience the mystery, of
not knowing, because we'repeople who want to fix things,
but if you can allow yourself toexperience it, let them pet the
(30:28):
dog, all of a sudden, they petthe dog, all of a sudden, the
music comes on and they pop upin the head comes up, they heard
music, they didn't know. Or ifthey like visuals, when maybe
they see a picture they didn'tknow. So be open to the
possibilities, I just think it'scritical aspects that I've
(30:48):
learned is to be open to thepossibilities of the unknown.
Max Sherman (30:54):
Right? Right.
That's great. That's such greatadvice. How did you find, you
know, how did you personallyfind your strength during during
all of this, like resilience,because, you know, it can be
really just debilitating attimes, you know, when, you know,
the disease can manifest indifferent ways. And as much as
(31:17):
we love the person that we'retrying to understand, but you
know, there's agitation, there'sthese kinds of, you know, even
just simply like not recognizingyou for a second or not, you
know, I remember my mothersaying, when, when I had her
when she was living with me, andmy daughters were there, and she
said, Oh, I'm, I'm sorry, youhave friends over, I won't
(31:38):
bother you. I was like, Mom,these are your granddaughters.
You know, for that moment, shedidn't see them as
granddaughters. She saw them asmy friends. And so those are
things right, that you have tofigure out. How do we start
breaking? It is? How did? Howdid you find your strength?
Unknown (31:59):
Well, you know, the way that the way that releasing the
butterfly starts, is that we'resitting there watching
television, and when we've had aglass of wine, and we've just
had a good evening, and all of asudden she looks over at me and
says, What are you doing here,you shouldn't be here, you're
not my husband. And she justexploded and starts rushing to
(32:22):
the door. And, and I started tohave socks on. That's when I
shattered the femur and had togo to the hospital. And there
were a number of we were in afavorite place of ours in
Montana. And we rushed out tosee the birds fly. And all of a
sudden, she looks at me andsays, Who are you? What are you
doing here? So those are momentsthat would crush you. Unless you
(32:46):
need no. And I think it's thegreat thing about your program.
Love conquers. And I think ifyou realize and you reach out
with love, because, you know, inthe next moment, she says, Would
you hug me? Would you give me akiss? And it's not? It's not the
end of the world? It's
Don Priess (33:08):
a moment. It's a moment that Yeah, and you just
have to know it will pass. Andthere'll be more, but you can't
let it define your relationshipor who they are defined.
Max Sherman (33:19):
Or defined the person. Right? Yeah. You know,
because I remember telling mymom later, when she was, you
know, out of the agitationsaying, Mommy, you know, that
hurts the girl's feelings. Whatdid I say? I tell her Oh, I
would never say that. And shewould cry. Make it it made her
very, very upset. So number one,note to self never tell mom
(33:42):
again when she did somethingbecause that was hurtful. She
can't help it. Right. And soyeah,
Unknown (33:50):
I think that's an excellent point. Because I think
we all owe you remember, so andso? Or, Oh, you haven't seen
this or why? You don't? You justlive in the moment. And you
realize that in my judge friend,he wrote the deal. I learned the
value of the little white lie.
You know, when I was talking toher on the phone, and she wants
(34:11):
me, you gotta come pick me up. Isaid, Well, you know, I'm still
in rehab. I mean, I've got toget my leg fixed. So I've got a
doctor's appointment. I didn'thave it was a lie. And then I
have another friend who came inthis is not didn't make it into
the book, but she always herhusband was in dimension
Alzheimer's for eight or 10years. She would come in every
(34:33):
week and get his clothes and getthem cleaned and pressed and
everything. And one day shebrought them in, but I'm not
wearing those anymore. Those arenot my clothes and she was just
stunned. And all of a sudden thelight flicked in her mind. And
she says, Well, let me get somemore she walks out in the hall,
(34:55):
waits for about two minutes orthree brings the same clothes
in. And he hugs her and kisses.
And it's okay. So you begin torealize that this moment may be
hell. And the next moment may beresurrection. And so I think he
just want to keep those thingsin mind as you work through it,
(35:17):
because and then there may be amoment where it doesn't recover,
as he thought it would have beenrecovering. As you may recall,
in the book, we have talks himwe're having a good visits, and
we have breakfast, and we havemeals, and they go on and all of
a sudden, begins to deteriorate,it's not going to be a long
meal. And all of a sudden,instead of a 45 minute meal, you
(35:40):
know, it's gonna be fiveminutes, and you better call
helper to come and take her backto memory care. And so it
evolves, both negatively andpositively. And I think on the
positive side is what we'rehaving right now. We meet every
morning and every afternoon,twice a day. And some moments
(36:02):
aren't as good as others. Youdon't want to expect today, what
you had yesterday. And I thinkit takes for the caregiver, it
takes the ability to let go. Andjust just to let go and expect
the impossible. And, you know,whenever the curtain comes down,
(36:26):
it's down. And that's okay. Andthat's where it will be. But I
think up until then you say thecurtain may come up tomorrow, it
may rain tomorrow, the butterflyfly may fly tomorrow. And so
hold open the possibility.
Right,
Max Sherman (36:43):
right. And
Don Priess (36:44):
that's so and that's so healthy for not only them,
but for the caregiver, it takesout that insanity, which you
feel like sometimes you're in itnormal, it's like it's taking
away all expectations of whatshould be of what's going to
come next what makes sense,taking all of that out of the
(37:04):
equation. And that takes away.
So all of that confusion thatcall that the caregiver, and
frustrated frustration, andtherefore in that and that and
your attitude. Now, they cansense that they can sense when
you're upset or agitated. And soit's a win win for everybody.
Yeah,
Unknown (37:24):
I had to make a little talk recently. And I can't do it
from memory too well, but a verygood friend of mine. He's
president of a small liberalarts university college,
university. And his father waswas a oilfield worker, not a
writer. And he read the book.
And he determined that, thathead of that his mother had a
(37:45):
right for a variety ofAlzheimer's. And he had taken
care of her for years, she's nowbeen dead for a long time. So
here's his father, who has neverwritten anything. He writes two
beautiful poems that he talkedabout was going to the doctor
and how it wasn't hisexperience. It was hers probably
(38:05):
from 20 years before, when hetook her there because he was
putting it into a poem. And thenhe talks about what it is to be
in that and, and so all of asudden, he just realized that
even even the caregiver who'slost a spouse lives with it
after it's over, you know, soyou've got to be prepared to
(38:27):
allow for that possibility tobecause you may not right now,
we're fortunate, we're bothalive. I'm 89 and Jenny's 86.
And we've been married almost 63years. And we still are
together. But when we're not,we're still together. And I
think whatever your religiousbelief is, there's some way that
that that mystery takes place,and you still have that
(38:52):
beautiful love that held youtogether, keep you together will
hold you together. And I thinkthat's extremely important.
Right?
Max Sherman (39:04):
Yeah. And, to Dan's point, it's like, it really is
the the epitome of this bit ofliving Zen, because you're
living in the moment. And that,you know, really, you know, on a
spiritual level, that's reallythe highest way you can live is
to live in the moment and enjoyeach moment. And because that's
(39:25):
all we have is this moment, thismoment, this moment. And so, you
know, and as hard as we tried tohold on to it, it's gone. It's
gone, right? So we can only justkeep that moment that we are in
now and treasure that andbecause my mom is and you know,
I've said this before, but mymom when I would go to visit her
(39:47):
even in her late stages, and I'dsay mommy, how are you? Today?
She go, I am great. I'm alive.
And the alternative sucks,right? So because she was she
loved life. And she was verymuch in the zoo. And I thought
that was such a beautifulsentiment because it is really,
it's beautiful to be alive. It'sa gift. And here we are the
(40:07):
three of us and we arecommunicating. And you know, and
this is it's this is what it is,it's now. And that's what it was
with my mom. And that's how itis with you and G now is that we
you go in and you just embraceit for that
Unknown (40:23):
season,
Don Priess (40:24):
you probably take the worst moment, you probably
take the worst moment with yourmom right now, wouldn't you?
Over? Oh, yeah. Not happy? Yeah,you know, you have to realize
that when you're alsoexperiencing those horrible
moments, that this is betterthan the alternative, you know,
Unknown (40:39):
let me share one experience because I said, we've
been here now 13 years, and it'san absolutely fantastic
retirement place. And so butmemory care, we've had friends
and people who've been there,they're no longer with us. And I
think it's not only you and yourmom and me and Jean Alice, but
(41:02):
you also could be available forsome of the other people there
that may not have you and haveme. And I think of two instances
of people that I got to knowbecause I would never have known
them had done that been in thesame area that my wife was. And
so on two different occasions,they were both women. And I only
(41:24):
knew them casually from beingdown there. And, and they had
been ill. But what I remember sovividly is one of them, both of
them in different ways. Butsimilarly is that they weren't
talking and they weren't, Iwasn't her husband. And I would
hold her hand in his I wouldtalk she would squeeze my hand,
(41:48):
she squeezed my hand, squeeze myhand. So even though I was a
stranger in one way I was there.
And I think that it's notinsignificant, to be there to be
there not only for your mom, andnot only for me to Jean Alice,
but to be there. For others whomay be there may be for the
caregiver, not we're talkingabout it because we can, there
(42:10):
are a lot of caregivers thatcan't adult, and they may just
need someone to hold their handand to be there. And I think
that's where ministers andpriests and people of all
various backgrounds who helpedpeople is this to be there in
the presence and maybe the holdthe hand and feel it squeezed
(42:30):
and say you knew something wasgoing on because if I went and I
was just jabbering, I know howto jabber and, and all of a
sudden, she squeezed my hand,squeeze my hand, squeeze my
hand. So I think the squeeze ofthe hand is is a very good
symbol because it tells someoneis there. There's someone there.
(42:51):
Yeah.
Max Sherman (42:53):
Yeah. 100% Yeah, I mean, and that's, that's the
that is that's the way that'sthe language, right? That's the
language that that person wascapable of. And she's telling
you so much and that squeezesthe hand. You know, and I would
my mom would do that towards theend she would squeeze and you
(43:14):
know, she would smile and I go Ihear ya, I hear ya. I hear those
words coming. I know what youthink. And you know, I would try
to fill in for her because shecouldn't say the words so I
would really pay attention andalso you're so right and you
know when it comes to beingthere for other people and I
also think that it it not onlyserves them it serves us because
(43:38):
there's nothing better thanmaking you know that feeling
when you're there you walk outand you realize like you just
made so many people feelacknowledged and feel you know
that they're alive and they areyou know, you're giving them
(43:59):
you're justifying them and it'sbeautiful and you you can't have
a better feeling than that I'mtelling you I highly recommend
it. I do it i mean i Who wouldhave thought that you could feel
so good leaving you know afacility even a nursing home
where there's very you know,people with high acuity but you
sing songs and people are sohappy and and by the way you
(44:22):
don't have to be the best singerthey'll be appreciative. That's
like you know join in everybodyand it's it is a beautiful
thing. Really.
Don Priess (44:33):
And Max's Cat Stevens is on point let me tell
you his this morning Yeah, we'llcheer up everybody so well
morning is broken
Max Sherman (44:43):
is is is a old it's actually an old where does it
come from the original? Do youknow Max?
Unknown (44:50):
I don't really know for sure No. Okay. Because
Max Sherman (44:52):
I know it's like I think it is some it's from a it
might have been from a Areligious poem or something I
just I know he wasn't originalwhen
Unknown (45:05):
we're talking about the music, but in the early stages
it's not as true now, althoughabout every once in a while I
try to because when I was tryingto court Jean Alice when we were
college students, I knew shewould love to English literature
and music and and so when wewould meet I actually memorized
(45:27):
Shakespeare sonnet and then theShelley cited, you know,
Shakespeare sonnet. Let me notto the marriage of true minds
admit the impediments. Love isnot love which alters which in
alterations finds, or bends withthe remover to remove all No, it
is an ever fixed mark, thatlooks on Tempest, and remains
(45:50):
unshaken is the start everwondering Bard whose worst said
known, although his high betaken, love alters not with his
brief hours and weeks, thatstretches out even to the edge
of doom. But if this be era, andupon me proved, and ever read,
No man ever loved, but I thinkthat's one of the classic pieces
(46:14):
of poetry. But what does itfocus on? Love, love. And it
tells you that love is sopowerful. I don't think we ever
realize how hope and love andpeace are things that reach
deeply into the soul of a humanbeing in a way that you can't
explain. It's a mystery. And Ijust think we don't give it
(46:39):
enough credit.
Max Sherman (46:40):
I Amen. Amen. Amen to that. We really believe that.
Wow, this, this was so fast.
She's, do
Don Priess (46:48):
you want to, you know, I just want to touch on
the fact that, you know, you'vetook everything that you have
learned and experienced over theyears, and you did create this
amazing book, releasing thebutterfly, a love affair and
four acts. And I mean, I think Ithink you told me before we
started, actually, that you, youwrote this for yourself
(47:10):
initially. Correct? Right? Itwas nothing you were planning on
letting the world see.
Unknown (47:18):
Yeah, it was my therapy. It was for me. And it
evolved. And as people learnedthat I was doing it, they asked
me, How are you dealing with thequestions when they ask and I
try to relate or maybe inanswering your question. I would
tell them I've written somethinglast night about the horror of
it. And you know, I don't knowthat. There's a chapter that I
(47:39):
wrote in there that it was basedupon a really life experience of
ours. But when we were leavingAmarillo, Texas, where we had
lived for many years, and ourmutual friends all came
together. And they had a quiltand they each had a square and
the quilt and some memory of ourtime there. And we had the quilt
(48:02):
and they gave it to us. And thiswas a true story. All really
true. But I kept trying tounderstand what, what's going
on. Yeah, I was still trying tobe the lawyer and they figure it
out. And so we take the quilt,and we fold it up and take it
out of town, a little Volkswagenand put it in the backseat, and
(48:23):
I reach in to get my car keys.
And I don't have them. So Ithink well, these are very close
friends. We've been here I goback in there probably for
somewhere. So I go to the door,and all the lights are out. No
one answered the door. No onehears the knock. There's no one
there. And that was my fictionalway of trying to understand
(48:51):
where Jean Ellis was. And Ithought that wouldn't be one
hell of a position to be in whenthere's no one there. And what
we're talking about here, andwe've talked about the last
several minutes, is it'sabsolutely critical to be there
for someone to be there. Becausein that mind, which I don't
(49:14):
understand, I'm not a scientist.
Oh, I read tons and tons ofstuff, but I'll never understand
it. But I think it's the thehorror. And there's no one
there. It says he was there fora mother and their preteen
Alice, I was there for twostrange women that I didn't know
well except casually, but tohold the hand. And so I just
(49:38):
think that that's something wedo not want to lose.
Max Sherman (49:43):
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. That's a
beautiful metaphor that you justsaid because that is I mean it
is the to think about knowingyou forgot something but then
not knowing where it is or whatit is that you know, I think at
some point in Alzheimer's itbecomes what is what is it? Even
(50:03):
right? And then having no onethere to, to help you through
that is is so frightening it youknow that? I mean, I get
frightened, I'm sure you havethe feeling to if you forget a
word, or you forget somethingthat you know, you know. And you
know I as the daughter, thegenetic daughter of my mom, I
(50:24):
think it's happening. That's it.
That's all. And my daughtershave to remind me, Mom, we
forget every day, don't worry,we forget things every day. You
know, so but you know, justimagine if you could if it was
you were in that situation, Iagree with you how frightening
it would be to be alone? No, itwould be so frightening. I
(50:47):
agree. You're a tremendous humanbeing will
Unknown (50:55):
read to get to know you. I've had a lot of good
opportunities, or blue collarkids who grew up in a blue
collar town and it hadopportunities we never dreamed
we would have. And this is oneof them. We never dreamed we
would live this long. And wenever read we will be talking
about this subject. And we are.
And I hope that somebodybenefits and says yeah, there's
(51:16):
a way we can make this thingwork.
Max Sherman (51:20):
I love it. I love it. And I love how vibrant you
are and how you just, you justdid a wonderful role model and
your romantic to boot. And yousay and you do a great guy, you
know anybody's gonna doShakespeare for me? I'm in?
That's good. Of course, ofcourse, is there any last piece
(51:43):
of advice that you want to givethe audience if they are dealing
with somebody, or maybe at thebeginning stages, something that
you said you garbage dropped alot of beautiful things, but
anything else we didn't? Youwanted to say?
Unknown (51:57):
I would just say that.
I think we undervalue the valueof a great big O genuine hug.
Just hug me. Put your armsaround me.
Max Sherman (52:11):
Yep. I'll go with that. Well, you've
Don Priess (52:13):
heard us today. I mean, yeah, you've hugged us and
our whole audience, I tell youdefinitely. Definitely. You can
just feel it. You just emanatelove. And that's, you know,
that's everything. Iseverything. That's, that's why
you know why,
Max Sherman (52:30):
Susan? That's because,
Don Priess (52:34):
well, love is powerful. Love is contagious.
And love conquers all. So wethank everyone for watching,
listening today. We thank ourvery, very special guests, Matt
Sherman. Please do go look forhis book, releasing the
butterflies, a love affair andfor x. And we'll have all that
information online. like us,share us love us. Absolutely.
(52:59):
See you next time. Subscribe.
Take care. Thanks again forlistening. Take care everybody.
Max Sherman (53:05):
Bye bye. Bye bye
When the world has gotcha down, and Alzheimer's
(00:04):
sucks. It's an equal opportunitydisease that chips away at
everything we hold dear. And todate, there's no cure. So until
there is we continue to fightwith the most powerful tool in
our arsenal. Love. This is LoveConquers Alz, a real and really
positive podcast that takes adeep dive into everything.
(00:25):
Alzheimer's, The Good, the Bad,and everything in between. And
now, here are your hosts Susiesinger, Carter, and me, Don
Priess.
Max Sherman (00:40):
Good afternoon. I'm Susie Singer Carter.
Don Priess (00:43):
And I'm Don Priess.
And this is love conquers allcalls. Hello, Susan.
Max Sherman (00:48):
Donald, how you doing?
Don Priess (00:50):
I'm swell. What is the word? What do you don't?
Well, you know, I mean, that's amatter of opinion. But I think
I'm swell. So
Max Sherman (01:00):
I am. I am swell ish. Yeah, yes. I'm swell ish.
Yes. Yeah. Well, it's been anonstop and busy and busy doing
things and like, we're we areboth busy. But let's see what we
had. We had my two Rugrats forthe weekend. I had. I was, I had
(01:22):
a three year old, four year oldand my 16 month old
granddaughters for the weekend,and I am exhausted and and like
the house was like a, like ahurricane happened. Like, I
don't know what happened, Ithink is it possible to have too
many toys? Apparently,
Don Priess (01:43):
it's not. The amazing thing is it's literally
a disaster area within the first11 seconds that distribute the
toys at a rate that is actuallyhumanly impossible.
Max Sherman (01:57):
And yet, and yet it's done before our very eyes
before our very eyes. But um,yeah, it's pretty extraordinary
and skillful. I might add. Yeah,so but but loads of fun. We had
a slumber party. We had, youknow, so all those fun things,
girly girl stuff, and, you know,all that things. So I enjoyed
(02:18):
that. And on the on the businessside, where we're, we're at the
finish line of our documentary,No Country for Old people. And
we're at that point where we're,you know, bravely taking notes
from strangers and others. Andso difficult, so difficult to
(02:41):
hear other people's, you know,it's like writing a book or like
our our guests. That's going tobe on in a couple of minutes.
I'm sure he's had the samefeeling when people come in and
start chopping your your babyup. And you're like,
Don Priess (02:57):
wow, stop. And that's your opinion.
Max Sherman (03:00):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, yeah. But, but that'swhere we're at. And we're being
brave. We're being brave biggirls and big boys and listening
with open ears, and open mindsish. And that's what we're
doing. Absolutely. What I willremind you that we're still
raising money for the finishingfunds, and it's all tax
deductible. If I'm sure you're,you know, if you listen to us,
(03:23):
you probably know this already.
But, you know, we would, we'retaking donations still through
the national consumer voice forlong term care. And they are
incredible. And they are ourpartners, and it's 100% tax
deductible. And, but we're veryclose to getting this out there
(03:45):
for everybody. We hope that itmakes a big huge change. And
we're proud of our work. So
Don Priess (03:51):
absolutely. Because we're not doing this for
ourselves. We're doing this foryou know, the we're trying to
everybody, save the saveeveryone from going through what
Susie went through and what whatcountless people are going
through right now, every minuteso as
Max Sherman (04:07):
as we speak, we need to change our long term
care system. Now, so stat,right, but that's what we do.
It's like what when somethingwhen you go through a crisis of
any kind or a challenge, andthen you know, you learn then
you I think that that isimportant to pay it forward.
(04:28):
Right? And so that other peoplecan benefit from your
experience, like, guard nextguest right,
Don Priess (04:37):
indeed. So
Max Sherman (04:38):
Don, why don't you?
I know, why don't you do alovely introduction, and then
we'll get into it.
Don Priess (04:45):
I will do that.
Right now. I'm a lawyer by tradepolitician by practice and an
academic by accident. These arethe musings of the remarkable
Max Sherman, a former TexasState Senator president of West
Texas State University and Deanof the LBJ School of Public
Affairs. His leadership rolesalso include President of the
National Association of Schoolsof Public Affairs and vice
(05:08):
president of the Harry S. TrumanScholarship Foundation. And
recently, he was honored as an80 over 80 recipient. Now a
young and energetic 89 years oldMax Sherman's life has been
significantly influenced bywomen, but one in particular has
shaped who he is today. In 1953,Max was among four high school
(05:29):
boys conducting a church serviceat a local jail when he first
laid eyes on Jean Alice, who wasthere with her fold up field
Oregon, and their love affairstill thrives to this day. But
in 2002, Gene Atlas startednoticing that something was
different and soon after, wasdiagnosed with Alzheimer's.
Through the inevitableprogression of the disease Max
(05:50):
and Gene Alice's journeytogether is now chronicled in
the beautiful and poignantmemoir, releasing the butterfly,
a love affair in four acts. Andhonest, heart wrenching and
insightful look at not only thedisease, but a bond that could
not be broken. And we are soexcited to have the author of
this ode to a 70 year loveaffair with us today. So let's
say hello to Max Sherman. Hello,Max. Hello, Max.
Max Sherman (06:17):
Hi, Don says we I'm delighted to be with you.
Thank you, we're delighted to bewith you. Everything about who
you are, and your your love yourincredible love. lifelong love
resonates so deeply with withus. And in your compassionate
(06:40):
caregiving is just so beautifulto to read about and to learn
about and, and just just reallygoes with our, our show love
conquers all, because that'sreally what you did, you use the
love, and you're still using thelove, right?
Unknown (06:57):
When we were together just a short time before, we're
talking here. And we weresitting there and she has her
head there and, and so I'velearned if in my raspy voice, I
would sing to her. So I wassinging old song that everybody
knows, and I'm not very good atit. But I said morning as
(07:18):
Robocon in the first morning,she likes or even raises it up
and opens those hazel eyes, andI just melt. And then we've
learned in Alzheimer's, you haveto read different signals. And
one of the signals that we'velearned is that the way that we
(07:38):
kiss now is a little differentthan when we used to kiss on the
lips. And really, anybodytalking to it, she will. That's
three big kisses. I got five ofthose big kisses this morning
after singing that song. Livestill goes on. And it's great.
(07:58):
We've learned to make love in adifferent way. And absolutely
every moment is just as preciousas it was when we first started.
And I had that first little peckon the lips that she gave me
when we were just a bunch ofkids
Don Priess (08:15):
definition of a silver lining,
Max Sherman (08:18):
ya know, it's, it's so beautiful. And it's such a
great, it's a it is the, the itsopponent your poster child for
for the best kind of approach tothis kind of journey. You know,
and it took and I know fromreading your book and also
listening to you talk on otherinterviews, you know that it is
(08:41):
a learning curve, right? Andthat, you know, we and it takes
it takes that, you know, thetripping over ourselves and
realizing that okay, this isn'tworking. Because, you know, I
always say that when my mom wasdiagnosed, I was I was certain
that I was going to be the onethat cures this for you other
people can't but I will writeuntil you realize that that
(09:03):
monster is way stronger than allof us. And now I'm you know
going to have and then I figuredout how to lean into my mom into
every stage and learn how to recommunicate with her like you're
doing with with Jean Alice,which is like it is so rewarding
and so beautiful. And yeah, Ijust really, really compliment
(09:25):
you on on going going thedistance the way you are.
Unknown (09:30):
She could I maybe just pick up on that because is I've
been asked to talk about thebook with different groups
senior citizens and and we livein a senior retirement
community. It's a wonderfulplace. But most people probably
here because somewhere in theirlives, either a parent or
grandparent or someone close hasbeen touched by Alzheimer's and
(09:54):
everyone's afraid Well, it mighthappen to me or it might happen
close to me. And so I I don'tthink we're ever prepared for
it. And in is I met with thesegroups. That chapter I think is
chapter 46. And it's one page inthe regular page books. And it's
an another in the large printedbook. But it's only about three
(10:17):
pages. It's very short. But it'smakes the point that you were
just talking about, because Iwas making all the decisions. I
picked out the clothes she wore,I pick the food that we ate, I
took us wherever we needed togo. I chose what we watched on
television, I was really tryingto be the fixer. And I can fix
(10:38):
this Well, I'm not going to fixit, I finally realized. And I
said that what was happening isthat I was stealing my love from
her nibble by nibble little bylittle by doing that every time.
And I had to learn that I wasnot the drill sergeants. I was
not the one who said Get In Linestep up, you're going too slow,
(10:59):
you're going too fast. And allof a sudden, it just shocked me
that all I needed to do was justshift gears. Nothing big. It's
like making love and then theworld of Alzheimer's is shifting
yours. And mine was Jeannie,would you like chocolate or
vanilla ice cream? Would youlike to watch the news? Or would
(11:21):
you like to watch a musicaltonight? Would you like to wear
this blouse or this blouse? Italmost always she would say, Oh,
you decide. It wasn't up. Butthe most important thing, the
most important thing, theheadline of that chapter is she
wanted to be asked, because shewas cine she was teen Alice. She
(11:44):
was not a child. She was not aperson in the army 100, the
drill sergeant, she hit herunique personality. And that to
me is the chapter in the bookthat was my wake up call that I
had to do it differently. Andall it was is shifting gears in
love making is shifting yours.
And the little is a kiss just asmuch as a big smack around the
(12:09):
lips. It's a beautiful kiss. Ilove every one of them. I would
not ever take one of them back.
And it's different than it wasbut you put your finger on it.
Max Sherman (12:23):
I love that. Yeah, wow. Yeah, I think I think
there's a lot of consistency inthat journey with people that
have, you know, decided to stepback. And really take a look at
at how we're interacting withour person with the person that
we love. And looking to findthem at the stage that they're
(12:44):
at, like I could find my mom, Icould still, you know, we shared
music too. My mom was a singer.
And so music became reallyimportant like you did with you.
And Jean. So I think that, youknow, I related to that as well.
And that it is like you saidit's magic. And you know it is
it lasts till the very bitterend. And and it made my mom so
happy. And it really was our ourlove talk, you know, and then we
(13:11):
also shared a sense of humor.
And so we, I would always comein with something, you know, to
catch her off. And she'd give methat big old smile, like, you
know, even when she lost herability to just to articulate
words. But she was talking tome, I saw it. I knew it. I just
(13:31):
I would I became I became thewords for her. Right? Yeah. And
that's and that is it. There'snothing more beautiful than
that. Because, you know, when weaccept as we accept the person,
and also what you said, likeacknowledging that they are
still who they are, is theirsoul as who they are inside. And
(13:54):
so we need to we can respect it.
We don't need to, but we can,and it's better.
Unknown (14:00):
When you know you, again, you've probably had this
experience with your mother. Butone of the things even again
this morning, when we have thesemoments where we're really
connecting in that way, and it'sall of a sudden, she doesn't
talk now. But all of a suddenshe's really talking, making
attempts to talk gettingsomething out there. Because you
(14:22):
can tell that you've resonatedyou touch something. And the
same is true. And the reasonthat I started this morning by
saying to her is that she's apianist. She's an organist.
She's a beautiful musician, andmusic actually reaches in and
when those things happen, sheresponds. In our senior living
(14:44):
facility last night a woman dida series of things, composers
and played the beautiful pianoand finished up with a Scott
Joplin number 10 He used to playScott Joplin all the time. And I
would always ask her what playthe entertainer in Boy, she
would pound that piano and playthe entertainer. And probably
one of the, if we play theentertainer, she perks up and
(15:07):
gets up and looks in the mirrorlooks at me, and she's right
there with you. And I think thatI think we don't always grasp
the potential of music isreaching into mind that we don't
understand. As I understand it,we don't now know how it all
works. We have some ideas andsciences worked on it. But we're
(15:29):
still trying to figure it out.
But you do know, there arecertain things that connect, and
those are there be treasured.
Max Sherman (15:37):
I agree. You know, I loved what you in your book,
when you talk about, you know,there's parts that you spoke
about your wife on in thebeginning stages, and her
experience of the thosebeginning stages and how she
described them. And I alwaysfind it fascinating because I
used to say, my mom and I wereso close. And I would I wanted,
(16:00):
I missed I kind of missed mymoment, because I was such an
throes of it have to really sitdown and say, What are you
feeling? Like? What is this?
Like? You know, and you talkedabout the fog and that
connection? You know? Can youtell our audience like that part
of it? What, what's your wife inthe beginning stages she
(16:21):
starred, she really articulateda lot of what it felt like when
she would get lost, or right.
And that I found that I thinkthat's so important for us who
don't have to really understandthat the fluidity of it because
it comes and goes in thebeginning, correct? Well,
Unknown (16:40):
I think so I think, you know, she really was the one who
put her finger on it about 12 to14 years before it hit like a
tsunami. And just overpowered asshe said, you know, we we built
a new home when we both came toAustin, Texas. I was needed the
LBJ School and she was head ofthe Conference Center. And we
(17:03):
had very active lives. So we inDecember usually had about five
different events in our homewhere we had different groups in
from academia from, frombusiness from law, because I was
a lawyer in the early days, onand on. So we had these
different groups in largenumbers, and the house was built
to entertain. And after we satdown to have a glass of wine,
(17:28):
about New Year's Eve of 2002.
She said, You know, it's thefirst time that I've had time
trouble remembering all thenames, and she could remember
hundreds of names and new peoplecome in, she would greet them by
their names have their firstname. And she said all of a
sudden is the first time. Andit's the first time I've felt
the pressure of getting preparedfor these events. Because she
(17:50):
used to just love it as we hadour assignments. And she did get
put the food together. And myjob was to clean the windows and
polish the floors and do allthat. But she said it's the
first time so we were able toget an appointment at the Brain
Health Center in Dallas, in 2003in January. And we went up and
(18:12):
they did a two, two dayevaluation. And so they had all
this material. And the maindoctor, there is a very
distinguished doctor atSouthwest medical school. And
he's the one that supervise andso out of that we started doing
regular checkups, but she wouldalways every year we would met
(18:33):
with Dr. Hart. And he'd beenasked questions and he had about
four interns with him to teachhim how to work with people who
were struggling with dementiaand Alzheimer's. And he's a
great, great, great doctor. Andso I got a chance to watch it
over the years a very thing youasked him about. And one of the
things he said that to me iscritical is he said, you know,
(18:56):
she shouldn't be getting worse,but she's not. She still has
impeccable appearance. When Iasked her a question, she looks
me right in the eye. And he saidas long as that's there, they
said we're rare, maybe issueswhere she takes the
grandchildren to school and getslost. Or she's going to meet
(19:18):
some friends and takes a turnthe wrong way. So those were the
little signals and she talkedabout those. But in by and
large, she felt competent. Andthen she is an organist in our
church. The Oregon there isactually named for her because
it's a big, big beautiful Oregonand she was a great church
organist. And we dedicated it onher birthday in 2014. And we had
(19:41):
the fella who does a Watermakerorgy at Oregon and Philadelphia
it came down to play for it. Andshe was in the audience of
church was full of peoplefriends from yours from our
church. She was in her elementand And we did two events with
friends musicians, one timefriends and x. And then one
(20:03):
month later, is when all hellhit. And then suddenly, the
ticker flare up because she hadbeen Ojai going strong, loving
every moment of it, boom, all ofa sudden, that whatever triggers
in the mind hit and that's whenI shattered a femur and had to
(20:25):
go to the hospital for three orfour weeks to recover. And get
back to it, our kids had to makethe decision for her to. And I
think it's important for yourlisteners, because I think I am
a person who's done things I ama fixer. And I probably if I
hadn't shattered the femur, wemight not have made the move we
(20:47):
did for her to have goodprofessional care, I might have
tried to put it off and put itoff and put it all. But all of a
sudden, I'm not there, that ourkids had to deal with it. So I
think one of the dangers for forall of us here are caregivers is
that we think we can fix it. AndI will have to admit, I plead
(21:07):
guilty. I plead guilty. I pleadguilty. I thought I could fix
it. And, and all of a sudden, Ihad to realize I could not fix
it. But I had to live with it wehad to live with we had to love
with it. And you talk yourprogram is about love. Love is
so critical, absolutely criticalto how you deal with a person
(21:30):
who's struggling as you'restruggling. In many ways. We
both thought that maybe life wasover. And maybe I'm talking too
much. But the first thing Iwrote very first thing I wrote.
I'm on hospice, I'm on herdeathbed. My family's all around
me, because I thought our liveswere over. And and they asked me
(21:54):
some question. And I'm notreally sure what I'm saying. And
this is all fictional. It's justin my mind. And all of a sudden
I see a stage floating overhead.
And I say, Well, maybe that'sit. And all of a sudden, I
decided I can write about it infiction is not in reality. So I
(22:17):
took the stage and I tookThornton Wilder's play our town,
and I created myself as George.
And I created Jean, Alice'sEmily. So almost everything that
was written originally waswritten for fictional
characters. And the psychiatristor the therapist was really the
stage manager out of our town,never dreamed it, never thought
(22:39):
I would do that. And all of asudden, it becomes the vehicle.
And you have to find a vehicle,that how you live with it, and
how you make it work. And itevolved. And maybe a little
later, as we talk, I'll tell astory because one of the things
that scares the hell out of meExcuse my language, is that the
(23:00):
stigma that no one wants to talkabout it. No one wants to talk
about it. So we say oh, she'sjust forgetting, oh, she didn't
remember. And we kind of put itoff and we put it off. And then
all of a sudden, you realizeit's more than that. I can't fix
it. And I'll come back to thestigma question in a moment. But
(23:21):
I'm gonna rattled on for awhile, but I just think those
are critical, critical issues.
Max Sherman (23:30):
Right? No, and that's exactly why I made my mom
in the girl because I was therewas. I mean, and I think also
there's the stigma comes frommisunderstanding and a lack of
education, and a lot and thatlack of education comes from
ageism, and because people don'twant to look at it, and it
frightens them. And so it'seasier to just to
(23:52):
compartmentalize it and say,well, they don't remember. So
that's it, you know, I mean, Italked about my brother when
Mama was first diagnosed, andyou know, he would say, I'd say,
why don't you come and see hermore often what she doesn't
remember, you know? Well, I'msure you understand how silly
that is, you know, it's like,yeah, and it's, they they do
(24:15):
remember, they remember here,and so, it's very important for
them to have that support. Butbut it's also so misunderstood.
You know, it's just looked at insuch a surface way. And so that
it's easy to dismiss and it'salso I you know, and I
understand that it is difficultfor people to face it. Some
(24:38):
people aren't strong enough, Iguess right. Now give
Unknown (24:42):
you an example if I may, because it's a different
area they were talking about,but it was my wake. It was what
helped me to work through it. Iwas asked to moderate a panel
between Bill and Judith moreyears in there. nerves are set
and cope. And it was at the LBJLibrary here in Austin, at the
(25:05):
LBJ School in LBJ Library. Andwe had 1000 people in the
audience. And they were in therethat evening, the issue was to
talk about addiction. And howpeople become addicted because
Coke, Moyers and becomingaddicted, almost died in Harlem
in a crack house. And he'swritten books about it. It was
(25:26):
all their own the point ofstigma. Judith Moyers told a
story that night, that was awake up call for me. When she
talked about breast cancer. Shesaid for many, many years, no
one would talk about breastcancer. And all of a sudden,
people did. Eddie Ford, GeraldFord's wife talked about having
(25:48):
breast cancer. Judith Moyerstalked about having breast
cancer. So what happens today,we have six granddaughters, no
grandsons, all granddaughters.
We have one more in the hopperright now, a great grand coming.
Another girl have all thesegirls. What did those young
girls do to whoever may havejust finished college last year,
they come out and putfundraisers on, they put on
(26:10):
their pink sweaters, they pinkshirts, and they have a month,
and they dedicated to raisingmoney for breast cancer. And
there was not there was a timewhen no one would talk about it.
If you can get if you can get itout of the closet and get it out
there, then I believe it's goingto be up here. I think I commend
what you guys are doing and beendoing it for 25 years, get it
(26:33):
out of the closet, talk aboutit. And you're gonna help find
ways eventually to deal with itfor the caregiver, and also for
the person needing the care.
Max Sherman (26:46):
Definitely, definitely. Yeah, I mean,
that's, that's what we aim todo. And I think there's a lot of
us now than there ever wasbefore. You know, I know, my mom
had Alzheimer's for 16 years.
And when I first you know, heardof it, I was I had preconceived
ideas and stereotype, you knowabout it. And I thought, Oh, my
God, my, my, I thought I had toprotect my mom, they people
(27:10):
would not be understanding. And,you know, I, I learned, it took
me a little while but I learnedthat people you know, when you
when you educate people, they'remuch more they there. They are
understanding they can beunderstanding and more than you
think that they are or wouldever be. And so that was very,
(27:30):
that was enlightening and alsoreconfirming for me to find out
how many people were actuallymuch more empathetic and
compassionate than I thoughtthat they would be. And I think,
you know, so it really showed methat if you educate people give
them opportunity to to step up,they will.
Unknown (27:54):
I think it may be in in the book. But one of the another
wake up call for me is that whenJean Alice was first down there,
I was told to follow in I'm alawyer, I've given a lot of
advice to people that theydidn't follow. And then they got
in trouble. And then they reallyneeded me and I made a lot more
money. But because they didn'tfollow professional advice. So
(28:18):
when I was advised not to seeJean Alice when she went down to
memory care. So for threemonths, I did not see her three
months. In later when COVIDcomes along, we go six months
without seeing each other sixmonths. It's one hell of a life
to have to live through. That onthe first go round. I called
(28:38):
every morning at 10am Everyevening and 6am what I was told
what happened happened, oh, Max,Max, Max, you got to come and
get me I shouldn't be here, Ishould be with you. I have to
get my clothes packed. Icouldn't be with you. And
there's a story in there by ajudge who had with his mother,
she wanted to be birth. So youhave to learn to let it happen
(29:00):
and let her realize that that isher home. We still are there
every moment in love and spirit.
But you have to learn that, thatthat's where she is. But when I
used to go down there were threewomen who said in wheelchairs.
And they always had their headsdown. And you thought well,
they're, they're notincompetent, or they're sleeping
or whatever. And we had a littleShih Tzu dog. And so the church
(29:22):
organist in our church got herto go down and play the piano
with him one time when she wasmuch earlier stages. And so
they're playing the piano tohave them sitting side by side
in the activities room. And I'msitting by one of those women
who never raised her head. I'venever seen an eraser head. Do
(29:43):
you not know when she can raiseher head? And I'm holding this
little black lemon pounds hitsthe dog in my arms. And all of a
sudden, someone is petting thedog. There's a hand petting the
dog, and I'm scared to death, noidea what's going on. And it's
that woman who did not raise herhead, how she knew that dog was
(30:06):
there, I do not know. Butthere's something going on in
the mind of all those peoplethat we do not understand. And I
think if you can allow yourselfto experience the mystery, of
not knowing, because we'repeople who want to fix things,
but if you can allow yourself toexperience it, let them pet the
(30:28):
dog, all of a sudden, they petthe dog, all of a sudden, the
music comes on and they pop upin the head comes up, they heard
music, they didn't know. Or ifthey like visuals, when maybe
they see a picture they didn'tknow. So be open to the
possibilities, I just think it'scritical aspects that I've
(30:48):
learned is to be open to thepossibilities of the unknown.
Max Sherman (30:54):
Right? Right.
That's great. That's such greatadvice. How did you find, you
know, how did you personallyfind your strength during during
all of this, like resilience,because, you know, it can be
really just debilitating attimes, you know, when, you know,
the disease can manifest indifferent ways. And as much as
(31:17):
we love the person that we'retrying to understand, but you
know, there's agitation, there'sthese kinds of, you know, even
just simply like not recognizingyou for a second or not, you
know, I remember my mothersaying, when, when I had her
when she was living with me, andmy daughters were there, and she
said, Oh, I'm, I'm sorry, youhave friends over, I won't
(31:38):
bother you. I was like, Mom,these are your granddaughters.
You know, for that moment, shedidn't see them as
granddaughters. She saw them asmy friends. And so those are
things right, that you have tofigure out. How do we start
breaking? It is? How did? Howdid you find your strength?
Unknown (31:59):
Well, you know, the way that the way that releasing the
butterfly starts, is that we'resitting there watching
television, and when we've had aglass of wine, and we've just
had a good evening, and all of asudden she looks over at me and
says, What are you doing here,you shouldn't be here, you're
not my husband. And she justexploded and starts rushing to
(32:22):
the door. And, and I started tohave socks on. That's when I
shattered the femur and had togo to the hospital. And there
were a number of we were in afavorite place of ours in
Montana. And we rushed out tosee the birds fly. And all of a
sudden, she looks at me andsays, Who are you? What are you
doing here? So those are momentsthat would crush you. Unless you
(32:46):
need no. And I think it's thegreat thing about your program.
Love conquers. And I think ifyou realize and you reach out
with love, because, you know, inthe next moment, she says, Would
you hug me? Would you give me akiss? And it's not? It's not the
end of the world? It's
Don Priess (33:08):
a moment. It's a moment that Yeah, and you just
have to know it will pass. Andthere'll be more, but you can't
let it define your relationshipor who they are defined.
Max Sherman (33:19):
Or defined the person. Right? Yeah. You know,
because I remember telling mymom later, when she was, you
know, out of the agitationsaying, Mommy, you know, that
hurts the girl's feelings. Whatdid I say? I tell her Oh, I
would never say that. And shewould cry. Make it it made her
very, very upset. So number one,note to self never tell mom
(33:42):
again when she did somethingbecause that was hurtful. She
can't help it. Right. And soyeah,
Unknown (33:50):
I think that's an excellent point. Because I think
we all owe you remember, so andso? Or, Oh, you haven't seen
this or why? You don't? You justlive in the moment. And you
realize that in my judge friend,he wrote the deal. I learned the
value of the little white lie.
You know, when I was talking toher on the phone, and she wants
(34:11):
me, you gotta come pick me up. Isaid, Well, you know, I'm still
in rehab. I mean, I've got toget my leg fixed. So I've got a
doctor's appointment. I didn'thave it was a lie. And then I
have another friend who came inthis is not didn't make it into
the book, but she always herhusband was in dimension
Alzheimer's for eight or 10years. She would come in every
(34:33):
week and get his clothes and getthem cleaned and pressed and
everything. And one day shebrought them in, but I'm not
wearing those anymore. Those arenot my clothes and she was just
stunned. And all of a sudden thelight flicked in her mind. And
she says, Well, let me get somemore she walks out in the hall,
(34:55):
waits for about two minutes orthree brings the same clothes
in. And he hugs her and kisses.
And it's okay. So you begin torealize that this moment may be
hell. And the next moment may beresurrection. And so I think he
just want to keep those thingsin mind as you work through it,
(35:17):
because and then there may be amoment where it doesn't recover,
as he thought it would have beenrecovering. As you may recall,
in the book, we have talks himwe're having a good visits, and
we have breakfast, and we havemeals, and they go on and all of
a sudden, begins to deteriorate,it's not going to be a long
meal. And all of a sudden,instead of a 45 minute meal, you
(35:40):
know, it's gonna be fiveminutes, and you better call
helper to come and take her backto memory care. And so it
evolves, both negatively andpositively. And I think on the
positive side is what we'rehaving right now. We meet every
morning and every afternoon,twice a day. And some moments
(36:02):
aren't as good as others. Youdon't want to expect today, what
you had yesterday. And I thinkit takes for the caregiver, it
takes the ability to let go. Andjust just to let go and expect
the impossible. And, you know,whenever the curtain comes down,
(36:26):
it's down. And that's okay. Andthat's where it will be. But I
think up until then you say thecurtain may come up tomorrow, it
may rain tomorrow, the butterflyfly may fly tomorrow. And so
hold open the possibility.
Right,
Max Sherman (36:43):
right. And
Don Priess (36:44):
that's so and that's so healthy for not only them,
but for the caregiver, it takesout that insanity, which you
feel like sometimes you're in itnormal, it's like it's taking
away all expectations of whatshould be of what's going to
come next what makes sense,taking all of that out of the
(37:04):
equation. And that takes away.
So all of that confusion thatcall that the caregiver, and
frustrated frustration, andtherefore in that and that and
your attitude. Now, they cansense that they can sense when
you're upset or agitated. And soit's a win win for everybody.
Yeah,
Unknown (37:24):
I had to make a little talk recently. And I can't do it
from memory too well, but a verygood friend of mine. He's
president of a small liberalarts university college,
university. And his father waswas a oilfield worker, not a
writer. And he read the book.
And he determined that, thathead of that his mother had a
(37:45):
right for a variety ofAlzheimer's. And he had taken
care of her for years, she's nowbeen dead for a long time. So
here's his father, who has neverwritten anything. He writes two
beautiful poems that he talkedabout was going to the doctor
and how it wasn't hisexperience. It was hers probably
(38:05):
from 20 years before, when hetook her there because he was
putting it into a poem. And thenhe talks about what it is to be
in that and, and so all of asudden, he just realized that
even even the caregiver who'slost a spouse lives with it
after it's over, you know, soyou've got to be prepared to
(38:27):
allow for that possibility tobecause you may not right now,
we're fortunate, we're bothalive. I'm 89 and Jenny's 86.
And we've been married almost 63years. And we still are
together. But when we're not,we're still together. And I
think whatever your religiousbelief is, there's some way that
that that mystery takes place,and you still have that
(38:52):
beautiful love that held youtogether, keep you together will
hold you together. And I thinkthat's extremely important.
Right?
Max Sherman (39:04):
Yeah. And, to Dan's point, it's like, it really is
the the epitome of this bit ofliving Zen, because you're
living in the moment. And that,you know, really, you know, on a
spiritual level, that's reallythe highest way you can live is
to live in the moment and enjoyeach moment. And because that's
(39:25):
all we have is this moment, thismoment, this moment. And so, you
know, and as hard as we tried tohold on to it, it's gone. It's
gone, right? So we can only justkeep that moment that we are in
now and treasure that andbecause my mom is and you know,
I've said this before, but mymom when I would go to visit her
(39:47):
even in her late stages, and I'dsay mommy, how are you? Today?
She go, I am great. I'm alive.
And the alternative sucks,right? So because she was she
loved life. And she was verymuch in the zoo. And I thought
that was such a beautifulsentiment because it is really,
it's beautiful to be alive. It'sa gift. And here we are the
(40:07):
three of us and we arecommunicating. And you know, and
this is it's this is what it is,it's now. And that's what it was
with my mom. And that's how itis with you and G now is that we
you go in and you just embraceit for that
Unknown (40:23):
season,
Don Priess (40:24):
you probably take the worst moment, you probably
take the worst moment with yourmom right now, wouldn't you?
Over? Oh, yeah. Not happy? Yeah,you know, you have to realize
that when you're alsoexperiencing those horrible
moments, that this is betterthan the alternative, you know,
Unknown (40:39):
let me share one experience because I said, we've
been here now 13 years, and it'san absolutely fantastic
retirement place. And so butmemory care, we've had friends
and people who've been there,they're no longer with us. And I
think it's not only you and yourmom and me and Jean Alice, but
(41:02):
you also could be available forsome of the other people there
that may not have you and haveme. And I think of two instances
of people that I got to knowbecause I would never have known
them had done that been in thesame area that my wife was. And
so on two different occasions,they were both women. And I only
(41:24):
knew them casually from beingdown there. And, and they had
been ill. But what I remember sovividly is one of them, both of
them in different ways. Butsimilarly is that they weren't
talking and they weren't, Iwasn't her husband. And I would
hold her hand in his I wouldtalk she would squeeze my hand,
(41:48):
she squeezed my hand, squeeze myhand. So even though I was a
stranger in one way I was there.
And I think that it's notinsignificant, to be there to be
there not only for your mom, andnot only for me to Jean Alice,
but to be there. For others whomay be there may be for the
caregiver, not we're talkingabout it because we can, there
(42:10):
are a lot of caregivers thatcan't adult, and they may just
need someone to hold their handand to be there. And I think
that's where ministers andpriests and people of all
various backgrounds who helpedpeople is this to be there in
the presence and maybe the holdthe hand and feel it squeezed
(42:30):
and say you knew something wasgoing on because if I went and I
was just jabbering, I know howto jabber and, and all of a
sudden, she squeezed my hand,squeeze my hand, squeeze my
hand. So I think the squeeze ofthe hand is is a very good
symbol because it tells someoneis there. There's someone there.
(42:51):
Yeah.
Max Sherman (42:53):
Yeah. 100% Yeah, I mean, and that's, that's the
that is that's the way that'sthe language, right? That's the
language that that person wascapable of. And she's telling
you so much and that squeezesthe hand. You know, and I would
my mom would do that towards theend she would squeeze and you
(43:14):
know, she would smile and I go Ihear ya, I hear ya. I hear those
words coming. I know what youthink. And you know, I would try
to fill in for her because shecouldn't say the words so I
would really pay attention andalso you're so right and you
know when it comes to beingthere for other people and I
also think that it it not onlyserves them it serves us because
(43:38):
there's nothing better thanmaking you know that feeling
when you're there you walk outand you realize like you just
made so many people feelacknowledged and feel you know
that they're alive and they areyou know, you're giving them
(43:59):
you're justifying them and it'sbeautiful and you you can't have
a better feeling than that I'mtelling you I highly recommend
it. I do it i mean i Who wouldhave thought that you could feel
so good leaving you know afacility even a nursing home
where there's very you know,people with high acuity but you
sing songs and people are sohappy and and by the way you
(44:22):
don't have to be the best singerthey'll be appreciative. That's
like you know join in everybodyand it's it is a beautiful
thing. Really.
Don Priess (44:33):
And Max's Cat Stevens is on point let me tell
you his this morning Yeah, we'llcheer up everybody so well
morning is broken
Max Sherman (44:43):
is is is a old it's actually an old where does it
come from the original? Do youknow Max?
Unknown (44:50):
I don't really know for sure No. Okay. Because
Max Sherman (44:52):
I know it's like I think it is some it's from a it
might have been from a Areligious poem or something I
just I know he wasn't originalwhen
Unknown (45:05):
we're talking about the music, but in the early stages
it's not as true now, althoughabout every once in a while I
try to because when I was tryingto court Jean Alice when we were
college students, I knew shewould love to English literature
and music and and so when wewould meet I actually memorized
(45:27):
Shakespeare sonnet and then theShelley cited, you know,
Shakespeare sonnet. Let me notto the marriage of true minds
admit the impediments. Love isnot love which alters which in
alterations finds, or bends withthe remover to remove all No, it
is an ever fixed mark, thatlooks on Tempest, and remains
(45:50):
unshaken is the start everwondering Bard whose worst said
known, although his high betaken, love alters not with his
brief hours and weeks, thatstretches out even to the edge
of doom. But if this be era, andupon me proved, and ever read,
No man ever loved, but I thinkthat's one of the classic pieces
(46:14):
of poetry. But what does itfocus on? Love, love. And it
tells you that love is sopowerful. I don't think we ever
realize how hope and love andpeace are things that reach
deeply into the soul of a humanbeing in a way that you can't
explain. It's a mystery. And Ijust think we don't give it
(46:39):
enough credit.
Max Sherman (46:40):
I Amen. Amen. Amen to that. We really believe that.
Wow, this, this was so fast.
She's, do
Don Priess (46:48):
you want to, you know, I just want to touch on
the fact that, you know, you'vetook everything that you have
learned and experienced over theyears, and you did create this
amazing book, releasing thebutterfly, a love affair and
four acts. And I mean, I think Ithink you told me before we
started, actually, that you, youwrote this for yourself
(47:10):
initially. Correct? Right? Itwas nothing you were planning on
letting the world see.
Unknown (47:18):
Yeah, it was my therapy. It was for me. And it
evolved. And as people learnedthat I was doing it, they asked
me, How are you dealing with thequestions when they ask and I
try to relate or maybe inanswering your question. I would
tell them I've written somethinglast night about the horror of
it. And you know, I don't knowthat. There's a chapter that I
(47:39):
wrote in there that it was basedupon a really life experience of
ours. But when we were leavingAmarillo, Texas, where we had
lived for many years, and ourmutual friends all came
together. And they had a quiltand they each had a square and
the quilt and some memory of ourtime there. And we had the quilt
(48:02):
and they gave it to us. And thiswas a true story. All really
true. But I kept trying tounderstand what, what's going
on. Yeah, I was still trying tobe the lawyer and they figure it
out. And so we take the quilt,and we fold it up and take it
out of town, a little Volkswagenand put it in the backseat, and
(48:23):
I reach in to get my car keys.
And I don't have them. So Ithink well, these are very close
friends. We've been here I goback in there probably for
somewhere. So I go to the door,and all the lights are out. No
one answered the door. No onehears the knock. There's no one
there. And that was my fictionalway of trying to understand
(48:51):
where Jean Ellis was. And Ithought that wouldn't be one
hell of a position to be in whenthere's no one there. And what
we're talking about here, andwe've talked about the last
several minutes, is it'sabsolutely critical to be there
for someone to be there. Becausein that mind, which I don't
(49:14):
understand, I'm not a scientist.
Oh, I read tons and tons ofstuff, but I'll never understand
it. But I think it's the thehorror. And there's no one
there. It says he was there fora mother and their preteen
Alice, I was there for twostrange women that I didn't know
well except casually, but tohold the hand. And so I just
(49:38):
think that that's something wedo not want to lose.
Max Sherman (49:43):
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. That's a
beautiful metaphor that you justsaid because that is I mean it
is the to think about knowingyou forgot something but then
not knowing where it is or whatit is that you know, I think at
some point in Alzheimer's itbecomes what is what is it? Even
(50:03):
right? And then having no onethere to, to help you through
that is is so frightening it youknow that? I mean, I get
frightened, I'm sure you havethe feeling to if you forget a
word, or you forget somethingthat you know, you know. And you
know I as the daughter, thegenetic daughter of my mom, I
(50:24):
think it's happening. That's it.
That's all. And my daughtershave to remind me, Mom, we
forget every day, don't worry,we forget things every day. You
know, so but you know, justimagine if you could if it was
you were in that situation, Iagree with you how frightening
it would be to be alone? No, itwould be so frightening. I
(50:47):
agree. You're a tremendous humanbeing will
Unknown (50:55):
read to get to know you. I've had a lot of good
opportunities, or blue collarkids who grew up in a blue
collar town and it hadopportunities we never dreamed
we would have. And this is oneof them. We never dreamed we
would live this long. And wenever read we will be talking
about this subject. And we are.
And I hope that somebodybenefits and says yeah, there's
(51:16):
a way we can make this thingwork.
Max Sherman (51:20):
I love it. I love it. And I love how vibrant you
are and how you just, you justdid a wonderful role model and
your romantic to boot. And yousay and you do a great guy, you
know anybody's gonna doShakespeare for me? I'm in?
That's good. Of course, ofcourse, is there any last piece
(51:43):
of advice that you want to givethe audience if they are dealing
with somebody, or maybe at thebeginning stages, something that
you said you garbage dropped alot of beautiful things, but
anything else we didn't? Youwanted to say?
Unknown (51:57):
I would just say that.
I think we undervalue the valueof a great big O genuine hug.
Just hug me. Put your armsaround me.
Max Sherman (52:11):
Yep. I'll go with that. Well, you've
Don Priess (52:13):
heard us today. I mean, yeah, you've hugged us and
our whole audience, I tell youdefinitely. Definitely. You can
just feel it. You just emanatelove. And that's, you know,
that's everything. Iseverything. That's, that's why
you know why,
Max Sherman (52:30):
Susan? That's because,
Don Priess (52:34):
well, love is powerful. Love is contagious.
And love conquers all. So wethank everyone for watching,
listening today. We thank ourvery, very special guests, Matt
Sherman. Please do go look forhis book, releasing the
butterflies, a love affair andfor x. And we'll have all that
information online. like us,share us love us. Absolutely.
(52:59):
See you next time. Subscribe.
Take care. Thanks again forlistening. Take care everybody.
Max Sherman (53:05):
Bye bye. Bye bye
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