Envisioning Possibilities: Imagination’s Role with Jay Ellis and Jason Reynolds

Actor and debut author Jay Ellis joins award-winning author Jason Reynolds for an engaging discussion about his new memoir, Did Everyone Have an Imaginary Friend or Just Me?: Essays. In this heartfelt and humorous reflection, Jay shares stories of his childhood and his imaginary friend, Mikey, exploring how imagination shaped his life. The conversation delves into the power of childhood creativity, the significance of literature and education, and the influence of pop culture in sparking innovation. The episode also honors the profound impact of James Baldwin on African American writers, offering a thoughtful tribute to his legacy. With audience Q&A woven throughout, this episode provides rich insights into the ways personal experiences and societal forces intersect in literature.

Episode Transcript

Briana Littlejohn (00:00):
Welcome to the Mahogany Books Podcast Network, your gateway to
the world of African American literature.
We're proud to present acollection of podcasts dedicated
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Immerse yourself in podcasts likeBlack Books Matter, the podcast.
Where we learn about the booksand major life moments that
influence today's top writers.

(00:22):
Or tune in to Real Ballers Read,where brothers Jan and Miles invite
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subscribe to the Mahogany BooksPodcast Network on your favorite
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(00:45):
how y'all feeling?

Ramunda Young (00:47):
How y'all feeling?
I'm so excited.
Okay.
Let me come on this side.
I'm so excited.
Um, but yes, as Ryan mentioned, myname is Ramonda Young and this is

Derrick Young (00:58):
Derrick, Derrick Young,

Ramunda Young (00:59):
Derrick Young, Ramunda Young, and we've owned
Mahogany Books, created it fromthe ground up, um, 17 years ago.
So can we give it up for black business?
August is actually officiallyblack business month.
So I'm excited to do that, um,to mention that, that today,
but 17 years in business.
And 22 years married.
So that's a whole nother thing.

(01:21):
Yes.
But really quickly, thank youall again for coming out today.
Thank you to the DC public library.
They're not just our venue, but theyare our partners when we come and have
these great events and they say, yes,and I don't take that for granted.
So let's give it up for theDC public library, please.
Yes.
Um, also the DC public libraryfoundation, where I'm just, I'm very

(01:42):
proud to be a board member, but theyhave been so supportive event after
an event after event, just generouswith their time and their donations.
So let's give it up for theDC Public Library Foundation.
Yes.
And just really quickly, if youtake photos today, please make sure
your flash is off, but also tag us.
Don't be stingy with the tags.

(02:03):
Tag Jason Reynolds, tag Jay Ellison,tag Mahogany Books, and please use the
hashtag, hashtag Black Books Matter.
So let's get into it.
I know y'all didn't come to hear Armanda.
That's all right.
But first, I'd love to introduce ourphenomenal moderator for the evening.
Our moderator is noneother than Jason Reynolds.
Yes.
Yes.
Some Jason fans in the building.

(02:25):
Jason is the number one New York Timesbest selling author of more than 20
books for children and young adults.
He is best known for his novels, AllAmerican Boys, co written with his
dear friend Brendan Kelly, The TrackSeries, and Long Way Down, which
received Newbery, and the Coretta ScottKing and Coretta Scott King honors.
Among Jason's, I thought that was me,Among Jason's many accolades, he was

(02:47):
named the National Ambassador for YoungPeople's Literature by the Library
of Congress for 2020 22, and he hasalso received, um, uh, uh, worked as
faculty at Lesley University for theWriting for Young People MFA program.
He lives right here in D.
C.
Did y'all know that?
Okay.
Y'all like, yeah.
Okay.
Just make sure.
Um, so yes, please helpme welcome up our friend.

(03:10):
Somebody very dear to us, Mr.
Jason Reynolds.
Yes.
Next up I am thrilled towelcome our author for today.
The other author I should say,born in Sumter South South
Carolina to a military family.
Jay Ellis spent his childhood inventingnew personas for every town he landed in.

(03:33):
Too many to count.
After college, he realized theNBA wasn't good enough for him.
And he didn't want to crush the otherplayers dreams as he dominated the league.
So he decided to take his oneman show to Hollywood, where he
got his start on BET's The Game.
I used to love The Game.
Now an accomplished actor, philanthropist,and entrepreneur, Jay is best known for
his role as Lawrence on HBO's Insecure.

(03:56):
Yes, I know y'all here.
Mm hmm.
Um, for which he won an NAACP image awardand he appeared alongside Tom Cruise
and the Oscar nominated film Top Gun.
Please help me welcome, put yourhands together for Jay Ellis.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

(04:20):
But before we get started, I'm going totake the liberty to do a couple of things.
One, does anybody, I needto see a show of hands.
Does anybody know what today is?
Does anybody know?
Aside from this dope event that'shappening, does anybody know what it is?
Shout it out with your chest.
What is it?
So to be in this space today, to be ablack bookstore, to, I mean, there's so

(04:46):
many emotions that I have when it comesto James Baldwin, what he has done, not
just for us as bookstore owners, butus as black people, for us as readers.
And so what I would love to do,we're going to sing happy birthday
and we're going to sing it.
The Stevie Wonder way, but first I wouldlove to turn the mic over to my amazing
husband Um, for him to share some words ofhow he feels about James Baldwin as well.
So yes

Derrick Young (05:09):
What's going on guys?
Um, so not gonna be long but we do whatwe do for Um, a very powerful reason.
Uh, all you guys in here are book readersYou're you're writers you're book readers
and the thing that we get from booksis a connection You Um, something that
helps us feel, uh, connected not justto ourselves, but the people around us.

(05:33):
Books, writers, the best of the writers,gives us a window and to other cultures,
other people, and also gives a, amirror for us to reflect on ourselves.
And when I think of James Baldwin,all the books I read of him,
uh, my favorite being, beginagain, written by Eddie Glaude.
about his time post MLK's assassination.

(05:55):
What it makes me think of is one, um, theurgency, the importance of loving yourself
as a black person, of being in thiscountry and being authentic about yourself
and being able to write that in a way toallow other people to feel the same way.
It also gave America permission tobe more empathetic with us as well.

(06:16):
And I think that's, what'simportant about today as we
celebrate James Baldwin's birthday.
And we have these incredible authorshere right now who are continuing in
that work, allowing us the chance tonumber one, be able to connect with
ourselves on a much more personal wayto understand what our weaknesses are,
what our strengths are, and how we cancontinue to become better people, but also
allow other people to connect with us.

(06:38):
To see into our culture and tolove us authentically as people.
And that's what, uh, thebest of what Baldwin did.
For me, at least.
Everyone else has their own story.
And I encourage you guys on today and intothe future for the rest of the year, read
Baldwin, think on it, share with otherpeople, because it's just that important,
the work that a black writer does.
Because again, today, we're nowcelebrating and remembering James

(07:01):
Baldwin for all that he did.
Thank you.

Ramunda Young (07:03):
Go ahead, husband.
Okay.
Okay.
That's my husband.
That's my husband.
So y'all know, don't they?
But anyway, on the count of three,we won't do the long whole entire
thing, but I want to make space.
I want to hold space becausethis is, it's a powerful day
and I don't want to tear up.
I got three eyelashes left.
Um, but I do want to make surewe make space on this day to

(07:24):
celebrate the amazing James Ball.
So on the count of three.
Three.
Three.
One, two, three, happy birthdayto ya, happy birthday to ya,
happy birthday, happy birthdayto ya, come on, happy birthday to

(07:45):
ya, happy birthday, ya'll ready?
Happy birthday, happy birthday, okay,that's it, that's it, let me stop,
okay, it's starting to get less,less, less voices, I was like, that's
enough, but please, please help me.

(08:08):
Put your hands together for thisamazing conversation with J and
J, J Ellis and Jason Reynolds.
Let's go.

Jason Reynolds (08:18):
So first of all, where y'all work at?
Cause
I'm from here and I knowthis is a working city.
I'm like, man, this is onlythree o'clock in the afternoon.
Ain't nobody finna behere, you know what I mean?
But, uh, I'm, I'm glad y'all madeit to celebrate, to celebrate,
uh, J Ellis's, J Ellis's book.

(08:39):
We don't, I want to make sure in theessence of time, I want to make sure that
we kind of get to it because there's alot of things that we, I want to get to.
Um, Backstage you were talking about a lotof things that you will never know about.
But the one thing that I was thinkingabout and that I was telling him was,
you know, I, uh, I watched Insecure.
We're not going to talkabout it, by the way.

(08:59):
Uh, y'all can ask whatever y'allwant to ask on y'all time, but I'm
going to make sure we honor this manin the book that he's made, right?
Um, that he's written.
But I was, I was telling myself when,when I got word that you had written
this book and they were asking me ifI wanted to be in conversation, if I
wanted a copy of it, so forth and so on.
I was thinking to myself, first I waslike, cause I'm a jaded writer, right?

(09:21):
So I'm like, uh, right?
Celebrities, right?
Actors.
And then, and then I thought to myself, Iwas like, what if, look, it's, it's a lot
of black people in the world and it's alot of ways to be a black person, right?
Like there is no sort of setway to be a black person.
But that don't mean that everyblack person is my kind of black

(09:42):
person, you know what I mean?
Some of us in here knowwhat I'm talking about.
And so I, so I, so I was like, what ifhe ain't my kind of black person, right?
But then I started reading the book andthere's a part that I wanted to talk about
right in the beginning in the introductionthat, that, that basically let me know
that he was my kind of black person.
So there's a part in the very beginningwhere he gets to, uh, He's talking about,

(10:08):
like, what was going on when you're bornin the 80s and raised in the 90s, right?
Anybody, 80s babies, who came upin the 90s, any of them folks?
So you know, we have a lot of thingsto, we went through a lot, right?
We went through a lot.
But he's, and he's listingall these things, right?
And then, he says, The real world,dial up internet, and then he says,

(10:33):
hey Macarena, and then he puts, All
and I thought to myself.
That's not the words to that song.
They say, they say, I, they don'tsay, all right, but he said, they
said, all right, which let me know.
He might kind of black person.

(10:55):
You know what I mean?
Cause if you ain't finna mess upthe lyrics, you know what I mean?
And not care.
He printed that in the book, right?
I'm like, you ain't researching.
He's like, I bet you'dprobably like, no, no, no.
That's just, in my mind,it's all right, you know?
So look, I have, I have questionsabout, about Mikey, about the book.
I, I think this is the perfectday to talk about this book.
You know, James Baldwin said, Theworld does not know it yet, but the

(11:18):
interior life is the real life, andthe imaginations and dreams of a person
has a tangible effect on the world.
Right?
You have written a book about theimagination, and the dreams, the
intangible parts of a person's psychethat had a tangible effect on your life.
Um, and I, and I, I want to talk first.

(11:41):
Um, does everybody knowwhat the book is about?
Can we skip that part?
If you don't know, say so andwe'll get you to, we'll get
you to once the one liner.
I appreciate that.
Thank you very much.
All right.
You were how I see.
She's embarrassed right now.
All right.
So can you, can you give, can you giveyour, your, your pitch right quick.
So Yeah,

Jay Ellis (12:02):
yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want you to, uh, to disappointed
when y'all walk out of here.
Uh, so, um, I was anonly child growing up.
I went to 12 schools in 13 years.
I moved around a ton.
My dad was in the Air Force.
And like Jason said, I, I am an 80sbaby who came of age in the 90s and
I was very, I moved around a lot.
And it was a very chaotic time.

(12:25):
And I have family who wasspread all across this country.
And my parents were teenagers when I wasborn and they would send me in the summers
cause they couldn't afford healthcare.
They would send me togo be with my family.
And all these things were happeningaround me, things I didn't know how to
process, things I didn't understand,things that no kid should probably see or
have to think about or have to process.
And I had this imaginary friend who cameto me, To help me through all of that

(12:49):
and for me, he was like a big brother Isay he was like Dwayne Wayne meets Fresh
Prince in the book like and I think theDwayne Wayne pieces because all of a
Sudden I was watching this black dudein college who kind of looked like me
with glasses and suspenders and I waslike, oh shit I want to be him when I
grow up and he came to me in a way thatfelt like a mentor It felt like a sereno.
It felt like a confidant.

(13:09):
It felt like a road dog and Helped methrough simulate situations at times.
So I wouldn't embarrass myself whenI got to school or we just went on
adventures together or help me stay outof trouble or even get into trouble.
And then as we get older andlife goes on, you lose that.
And when you are a person ofcolor, you tend to lose it
earlier than our counterparts.

(13:30):
And all of a sudden I was out here.
I didn't have the luxuryof imagination anymore.
I'm now in this worldand the shit is real.
And the loss of innocence is, is there.
And so now all of a sudden I'm tryingto process that, and I'm, I'm making
mistakes, and I'm bumping and falling anddoing all the things that everybody does.
But for me, when I started writingthis book, and what this book to me
is ultimately about, like, it's a loveletter to the 90s, it's a love letter to

(13:53):
the village that raised me, it's a loveletter to the cities I raised hell in.
But to me, this book is really a testamentto imagination, and how your imagination
gives you what you need when you need it.
And then we get older and welose that, and we gotta find
a way to get back to that.
It's, it's, yeah, absolutely.
You can clap for that.

Jason Reynolds (14:12):
I, you know, I, I, I'll tell you, you know, another moment
of honesty for me, you know, I, I,at first when I heard the premise of
the book, I thought you were right.
I thought you were using the imaginaryfriend as a device, as a literary device.
Um, and so for those of you whothink that, let me, let me sort of
clear, let me clear the deck for you.
He, he means this.

(14:33):
And I, and I, and when I started to readthe book and you were talking about this
very real thing that was happening, uh,not to you, but with you, right, this
very real person that was with you.
Um, first there was some, uh,embarrassment for me, uh, in
my reticence to the story andsort of being like, man, what?

(14:54):
Even though I work with kids every day,right, and make this work every day.
And I realized like, oh.
Oh, this is the point though, right?
Because, because, because I do knowMikey and I do know what it is to
imagine a world beyond my own or imaginea person beyond myself or my family.
My older brother had an imaginarygirlfriend named Petunia.

(15:17):
This is true.
Uh, shout out to my brother.
He'll never see this, but he had animaginary girlfriend named Petunia that
my father used to tease him about wheneverhe caught him humping the pillows.
And then I thought, this is true.
And, and I realized when I wasreminiscing about that, I was
like, looks like I probably hadsome imaginary girlfriends too.
Right.
. And I was going through all of my,and I was going through it is true.

(15:37):
Right.
And I was going through like, it'sa weird thing how we, how, how we
adult, how we adultified ourselves.
Yeah.
Unnecessarily.
Yes.
And so my question to you inthis moment is, is one, was it
uncomfortable to write a story?
Like, did, did you fear the judgment?
of your colleagues, friends, fans, right?
All these people.

(15:58):
And two, can you talk a bit aboutMikey and about sort of how Mikey
came to you, which is a funny scene,but how Mikey came to you and the
relationship that you had with this boy.
Who was a part of you?

Jay Ellis (16:13):
Yeah,

Jason Reynolds (16:13):
yeah.
I mean,
what was the first partof that real quick?
So, so was there any, was thereany embarrassment or insecurity

Jay Ellis (16:20):
around this?
There was a ton of insecurity aroundit because I've, I've, I've been
able to, you know, uh, I've had acareer as obviously an actor, right?
And so people see me in one wayand I'm actually pretty private.
Like I'm not, I don't share everything.
And some of that is some advice that Igot along the way, and some of that is
some things I had to learn along the way.
Um, about protecting what'ssacred to you, so that can re

(16:42):
continually refill your cup.
Because you constantly are given.
And when I wrote this book,there were many times, uh, where
I was like, what am I writing?
Like, people are gonna look at thisand think I'm absolutely crazy.
They're gonna think I'm on something.
They're gonna think I lost it.
They're gonna think I'mgonna be out there with Ye.
Like, they're gonna, like,you know what I'm saying?
Like, they're gonna be like,Jay started Sunday service.

(17:03):
We know what that mean.
You know what I'm saying?
And so, uh, I, we wanthim to come back though.
I do send, send in love and prayers.
We want him to come back.
We want him to come back,send in love and prayers.
But, but real talk, I did have thistrepidation a, because I'm typically not
that vulnerable in front of people, right?
I've understood the roles thatI've played and what people expect
of me because of those roles.

(17:25):
And there is a persona that I think weall wear, whether we know it or not.
And you put that up, uh, to some degreeto protect yourself, but also to some
degree to, um, To, uh, kind of meet theexpectations of what people may think
of you when, when they meet you, right?
Especially if you're aforward camera facing person.
And so I was like, oh, thisis, this is a horrible idea.
There's multiple times where Iwanted to back out of this book.

(17:46):
Um, I think the thing that,like, kind of kept compelling
me to write were the stories.
Like, I, I would find myself in themiddle of writing, and then it would
just click to me, like, oh, this iswhy I do that, or I think that, or
this is why Jordans are so importantto me, or, like, you know what I mean?

(18:10):
Like, just little things like that,that, that, I was like, I'm not the
only black boy who experienced this.
And even if I am the only blackboy who experienced this, fine.
My story still deservesto be told in some way.
And that still compelled me to, to kindof keep writing it, even regardless
of the, the fear of the trepidation.
And then to like, your second partof the question, Mikey, uh, uh,

(18:34):
my, we were in Tampa, Florida.
My dad pulled up on ahomie, uh, in a parking lot.
He was like, hey, I got a TV.
You trying to get this TV?
And so the dude like pops open the trunk.
He has a TV.
My dad opens the box.
And back in the day, TVs usedto have like a booty on them.
Y'all know what I'm talking about.
You know what I'm talking about.

(18:56):
Or a humpback, whicheverway you want to put it.
You know what I mean?
And so, my pops opens the box, he seesthe big, you know, glass screen with
the like, plastic casing around it.
Caches the dude out, takes the box home.
He gets home, he pulls, he goesto pull the, the, the box out.
And just the glass comes out andthe box is filled with bricks.

(19:20):
So now him and my mom are inthis very heated argument.
Cause my dad is like, I'm about togo out there and find his mother.
And she's like, you have a son.
You can't leave.
You're just going to go fightin the middle of the night.
What's wrong?
Like they sit in there arguing and I'm,I'm afraid of, of the, the, the, Not
the intensity of the argument becausethat that's not how they got down.

(19:42):
I'm more afraid of like the the Volume ofthe argument because that I was not used
to on top of that we were in Tampa andthere was a storm and so I My mind just
went to this place where like my bedroomhad become a swamp and there were like
crocodiles and alligators Swimming aroundmy bed, and I was too afraid to get out

(20:03):
of my bed and run to my parents room So,in this like moment of fear, Mikey kind of
pops over my shoulder and is like, Oh hellno, we ain't about to be no Crocs dinner.
And then from that moment on, like,we were friends, like I didn't, You
know, you were kids, so you can'tprocess that he's not really there.
I just had this experience with thisimaginary thing and that was it.

(20:25):
It wasn't until like, My parents had heardme talk about Mikey a few times and then
I'd be like, Oh, well, you can't see himbecause he doesn't want you to see him.
You know, I would make up the reasonswhy, but I still didn't fully understand
that I had an imaginary friend.
You know what I'm saying?
I

Jason Reynolds (20:40):
often, I love the part in the book too, as you're
sort of navigating your feelings.
familial elements of this, right?
Like your dad is way overMikey, way over it, right?
And because Mikey, cause you're gettinginto mischief is happening, right?
Your story reminds me a lot.
When I was reading it, all I kept thinkingwas, Oh, this dude is, is literally
Max from where the wild things are.
I'm like, this is, he's literally living.

(21:03):
He's having a wild rumpus time, right?
Like, he's, you know what I mean?
And so, like, talk a bit about, sort of,just how long it took your parents to sort
of be okay with the fact that their kidBy the way, which, at the time, we didn't
have as much language for mental illness.
No.

Jay Ellis (21:21):
No.

Jason Reynolds (21:22):
But had we had that language Yeah.
Yeah.
You may have been diagnosed asschizophrenic and medicated,
which would have been terrible.
And so can you talk a bit abouthow long it took your parents to
come around, if they ever did?
And also some of the research, becausethe part about the book that I really
also really respected was, was Jay back,I backed it up by saying like, hey,

(21:42):
there are studies and research that,that talk about young people and kids
with imaginary friends, that it actuallyisn't an abnormality, and it isn't a
mental illness, that it's a part of sortof maturation for a lot of young people.
Um, can you talk a bit about that?
Yeah, yeah, it took my parents a minute.

Jay Ellis (21:58):
Cause you was wreaking havoc.
Yeah, I was wreaking havoc, but also everytime I would say like, oh no, Mikey's in
my room, my parents would be like, where?
Is he under the bed?
Is he in the closet?
Like, where is he?
Is he, what does he look like?
Is there, and they, I think, and no,and I say this in the book, and like,
this is no joke when I say this.
My mom told me this, because I had to,as I went through this process, I would
talk to my mom, I'd talk to my dad,I'd talk to my grandmas, my cousins, my

(22:20):
aunties, and I would ask them questionsabout what they remember of me and my
relationship with Mikey, or me and anyevents or stories or things that happened.
And my mom was like, the first timeyou said it, your dad My dad has this
stick that he took the axe handle offthat he keeps with him at all times.
Like he keeps it, he keeps one inthe house, he keeps one in the car.

(22:41):
One of those men?
Yeah.
He calls it his, Be good stick.
Right.
Yeah, y'all know what I'm saying.
Got it.
Yeah.
Okay, so he was like he gonna be goodtoday So he's like walking through
the house My mom was like he's walkingthrough the house With this thing like
up on his shoulder because he thinksthere's actually somebody in the house
the way you're talking about this personSo obviously after like a day or so,

(23:05):
whatever they figured out like I'm justimagining this thing And then my mom kind
of leaned in they both kind of leaned in.
I think my dad was like, hey, he'sweird But he's weird, but, but
whatever, man, he's all right.
Yeah.
Uh, but my mom kind of leaned in andI think my parents, they very early
decided they only wanted to have one kid.

(23:26):
Like that's all they both wanted.
And they had me so young.
I don't think they could have evenbeen able to take on another child.
And so I, and we moved around so much.
I think my parents looked at it as anopportunity for me to, uh, to kind of, uh,
keep myself busy, keep myself occupied.
So they didn't have toentertain me all the time.
You know what I mean?

(23:46):
And then for the research part of thebook, you know, I kind of start the
book off and really started this wholeprocess with the question of like,
why do we have imaginary friends?
Why do kids have imaginary friends?
Why did I have an imaginary friend?
And my hope is that by goingthrough all these stories, I
kind of answer that for you.
If not, I think I try to tieit up very nicely at the end.

(24:08):
Uh, but in it, I did a bunch of research.
And like, I read it, there were abunch of papers I read, and articles,
and books, and all kinds of stuff.
And what you ultimately find outis there are quite a few behavioral
therapists out there who see childrenvery often with imaginary friends.
And one of the things that actuallycomes out of it is about 68 percent

(24:30):
of all kids have imaginary friends.
Thanks.
Which is a much larger number than whatI, as an adult, thought when I went
to go write this book, and I was like,Oh, people are gonna think I'm crazy.
The thing is, we lose it along theway, and the larger kind of definition
of an imaginary friend is like, ifyou put a personality into something,
if you make your pillow a person, orif your dog can talk, or if your G.

(24:53):
I.
Joe can blow something up, you are usingyour imagination to create that person.
a human in this thing or, oryou're personifying this thing.
And so it's part of the larger definition.
So that's something thatwe've all done along the way.
And I thought in order, as I was writingthis, I thought for myself in order
to understand it, but then also evenI was trying to think like forward

(25:18):
and think of the reader and be like,Oh, how do I get people to understand?
That this is actually, A, wildly normal,B, you most likely had it yourself and
you don't even know because you haven'ttalked about it, thought about it, asked
somebody who knew, and then C, kind ofdemystify and destigmatize what it is when
we think, like, the kid is crazy or weirdor, or schizophrenic or whatever it may

(25:41):
be because they have an imaginary friend.

Jason Reynolds (25:44):
You know, I was outside walking right here on the block.
I don't know what's goingon in the city this weekend.
There's a con, right?
There's a con this weekend.
And so people are cosplayingoutside the library.
And I just walked by and I waslike, Oh, this lady has a sword.
That's awesome, right?
And, and I was thinking about thisbook because it's, Because I, I would
imagine it not being the same, butthere is something about an act of

(26:05):
imagination when it comes to cosplay,or kids who wear Spider Man uniforms
to school, or like, are walkingaround doing this all day long, right?
It's like, you know what I mean?
It's like, uh, it's an interestingsort of thing that, that can
happen, and that does happen.
With one's imagination.
My question is, when I, when I personallythink of imaginary friends or even people

(26:27):
who cosplay, um, I, I often think thateither, either there is dissociation
happening or association happening, right?
Either I am trying to, to disconnectfrom myself or I am trying to better
connect to myself in a more whole way.

(26:48):
So for you, uh, with Mikey, Where doyou think you fall, or both perhaps,
right, depending upon context, wheredo you think you fall or you fell when,
when Mikey was in your life in that way?

Jay Ellis (26:59):
Yeah.
It's mad interesting, bro.
Um, I didn't know about thedissociating part of this and
there's this book out there calledthe boy who was raised as a dog.
Um, And I am losing myman's name right now.
Uh, he's a professor down in Texas.
He wrote this amazing book about howhe gets called in to often help unlock
trauma that people may have back herecompartmentalized somewhere and how that

(27:23):
trauma at times may actually be able toanswer clues to things that have happened.
Um, Like the children of, um, KingDavid and David Koresh, for example.
Not King David, what was it called?
The Davidians, Branch Davidians.
For example, the Branch Davidians,before the whole thing went up,
they released like eight or tenkids or something like that.

(27:45):
He was called in to talk to the kidsand ultimately he realized that like the
FBI wanted these answers to see what washappening in there, to see how dangerous
Branch Davidian and this guy actually was.
That's it.
But he couldn't get the answersout of them because he couldn't
just have a normal conversationwith them because they had been
dissociating for years, for years.
So what he realized is he had to putthem back in that same environment.

(28:09):
All of a sudden, they could wearwhat they want, they could eat
breakfast when they want, andthey could choose what they want.
That was nothing.
They didn't know how to react to that.
So they had to put them back inthe same environment to be able
to get the answers out of thosekids that they were looking for.
Well, what I ultimately kindof like learned from that read
was about the dissociating.
I didn't, I never thought aboutthat, which is then why now I can
say, like, your, your childhoodimagination gives you what you need.

(28:30):
If you were in a traumatic situation,Yes, sometimes it will, it will probably
become a core memory in some ways, butyes, I'm sure it will stick with you,
but your, your brain will also youryoung brain will try to make sense of
it as best as it possibly can to protectyou and to protect your innocence and
your childhood and all of those things.
It's survival.
It's your brain's version of survival.
I think I was associating.

(28:51):
Yeah,
I think I wanted to be this dude.
I think I ultimately Iwanted to be Dwayne Wayne.
I wanted to be, uh, Dwayne Wayne.
Excuse me.
I wanted to be the Fresh Prince.
I think I was, um, Trying, it'sinteresting because I think at
different times I was trying todo different things, but I think I
was trying to untap, um, who I was.
as we all are at that age oras you get a little bit older.

(29:14):
But I think I was also trying to tap who Iwas because I never felt like I had roots
because I constantly moved around so much.
And with each move, I felt like, Oh,well now I'm in a new, I'm in Texas.
So should I talk like I got,you know what I'm saying?
Or, or I'm in, I'm in California.
So I'm gonna hit these Rs real quick.
You know what I'm saying?
Like all of a sudden, like I feltlike I was grasping at like, who
am I supposed to be in this place?

(29:35):
And I think Mikey was kind ofthat grounding force for me.

Jason Reynolds (29:37):
Yeah, the anchor of it all.
Another thing I love about the book,and for those of y'all who are 38 and up
The book is also sort of acabinet of pop nostalgia.
Right.
So all the things thatyou miss is in here.

(29:59):
Like he is a lot of things, not all.
So you've missed a few.
I want to talk to you about,
but, but,
but there's, but there's a lot of just amazing,
like pop nostalgia from that time.
From, I mean, I guess all in, I mean,from old wrestling stuff to, you
know, what it was like being a kidwatching the Bill Clinton trials.

(30:23):
Um, and, and lots of other things.
My question about, about that timeand about sort of pop culture during
the 80s and 90s, um, do you think thatbecause of the way that the culture was
set up at that time that it makes, thatit made more space for imagination?
Now I only, I, I ask this becausein today's time young people do

(30:45):
not know what it is to be bored.
Right.
It doesn't exist anymore, right?
Boredom is not a thing that exists inthe world anymore because we always have
a distracting mechanism in our hands.
We have a machine thatis the boredom killer.
Sort of, right?
But, but it's not just killing boredom.
One could argue that it killsimagination because boredom is
oftentimes what sparks imagination.

(31:06):
If you don't have time to be bored,your brain never has a moment to do
the thing that it, that, that younormally wouldn't allow it to do.
And so my question isthinking about that time.
And thinking about the, the, the,there's a lot of terrible things
that were happening during this time.
HIV and AIDS, the crack epidemic,we can go on and on and on, right?
Reaganomics, right?

(31:27):
I mean, there's a lot,I mean, right here in D.
C., for those of y'all who arefrom here, it's a wild time, right?
Um, but on the positive side,there was a lot of fantasy, right?
You mentioned the Jordan 5s.
And for those of us who were therefor that, This is when the ad
campaigns changed and they startedto talk about those sneakers as if

(31:49):
they could actually make you fly.
Right?
Do you think growing up in thistime, so my question is, do you think
growing up in this time fosters animagination or fosters a Mikey, right?
Into a space.
And, and, and is that still fromwhat you know, is that still, do
you think it's still the same?

Jay Ellis (32:06):
It's interesting, bro.
I, I, um, I've read acouple of quotes on boredom.
And how like boredom actually leads tosome of the most wonderful works in the
world that we've ultimately seen becauseyou have to let your mind be able to,
you have to be bored to let your mindwonder to write, to, to imagine, to be
able to, to create at times, not all thetime, but a lot of times I think about my

(32:30):
childhood and we're, we're at that gap.
Since you said 38, we're in a crazy time,and I don't know that people will ever
be able to, the closest thing I couldmaybe think to people being able, being
able, excuse me, to understand it islike my great grandma who was born before
cars, and then died like in the 90s, andwas like pushing a Buick until she died

(32:51):
in her 80s, you know what I'm saying?
Like, that to me is theclosest thing I could think of.
I could think of.
I think, uh, when I was born, therewere a handful of television stations.
And when I say a handful, likethere might've been like 12.
There might've been 10.
There might've been eight.

Jason Reynolds (33:06):
You know

Jay Ellis (33:07):
what I'm saying?

Jason Reynolds (33:08):
Four, five, seven, nine.
You.
You.
Yeah.

Jay Ellis (33:11):
And so And I remember going like my, my maternal
grandma, her TV never even worked.
Like it was a, one of the big giantfloor joints and she was divorced.
So she couldn't move it at the house.
So it just sat there.
It was like, bro, it was a side table.
She had pictures all on thetop, you know what I'm saying?
She had draped, she had drapeda little, uh, uh, she had draped

(33:33):
a doily over it or something.
So, so.
And then I would go sit in Stockton,California or go sit in Youngstown,
Ohio or Sacramento or whateverand be bored all summer long, bro.
Like we would be told to go outside andplay, but there were also neighborhoods
that I couldn't like in Youngstown and inStockton, like I have family that lived
in neighborhoods where I could not gooutside and play because the block was

(33:55):
out for a completely different reason.
So boredom was just there.
And I do think to your point, that'swhere a lot of it comes from because
my imagination was just able torun wild with reckless abandon.
Now I got a four and a half year olddaughter who now all of a sudden her
favorite thing is to say, I'm bored.

(34:17):
We don't know where it came from.
It just started like in thelast six to eight weeks.
She's four and a half.
It just started in thelast six to eight weeks.
We have no idea where it came from.
And I go, cool.
Like, what do you wantme to do about that?
So find something to do.
Can I watch?
No, you can't.
Go find something to do.
Like, you're not goingto sit in front of a TV.

(34:38):
But then we're at that age where,like, all of a sudden now, we
have this boom of 24 hour newsnetworks and this big cable boom.
And so now you have this imaginationthat you had, that I had anyway as a kid,
and a lot of us, I think, had as kids.
But then you get thrown into, like,now you have all these things that
are constantly being thrown at you.
Yeah.
nonstop from the internet to, youknow, you know, to Jason's point,

(35:01):
like in, in, in the beginning ofthe book, I run all these things and
it's everything from like, PrinceCharles and Princess Diana getting
married, a billion people watched that.
So like, 83 millionpeople watched who shot J.
R.
Ewing.
Does anybody know?
I don't know who did it.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, but it was a crazy thing.
It like took over the world.
It was such a crazy thing.
But then you got the Bulls, youhave Team USA, you have, like

(35:23):
there's just so much stuff.
How about the Dominique Dawes?
Dominique Dawes.

Jason Reynolds (35:28):
And Simone

Jay Ellis (35:28):
Biles.
Yeah.
Uh, you got NAFTA.
You have the Cuban Adjustment Act.
You got like, there's just so manythings that were happening and
now it was all being televised.
And now as a kid, you'rejust consuming all of that.
And ain't nobody taught youhow to process all of that.
And you shouldn't be sitting infront of it, watching it all anyway.

(35:49):
And so I think that is like Mikeycame in because of the boredom.
And then now all of a sudden, as I gota little bit older and I am watching
a lot of TV, Mikey's still there.
And now I'm soaking up some of whatI'm watching and that's playing
in my mind in its own way as well.

Jason Reynolds (36:03):
It's like they don't, their kids don't, they
don't, unfortunately don'tknow what a power pellet is.
Let me explain it to you.
So a power pellet is any piece ofcandy, uh, that you could, when we
were kids, and I'm, and this is alot of, my whole neighborhood would
do this, like you'll go outside andplay, and it's like, well, do what?
It's like, well, just go out there, right?
Like, just go outside.
First of all, we were raisingthis time, you raised yourself.
That's the other thing thatwe've all learned, is that our

(36:25):
parents did not do much raising.
It's like, you got to go outside,And you don't, and don't come
back until it's dark, right?
Until it's almost dark.
But you better not gooff this block either.
But don't leave the block.
You better not go off this block either.
You need to be in voice range.
If I, if I scream your name,you need to get back to the, you
need to get back to the door.
But I think about it all the time,how we would just, me and my brothers,
we would all just go outside andjust, Try to make and make up

(36:47):
stories around like power pellets.
It could be peanuts, whateverwas small that we could eat.
And we'd be like, if I, if I eat this,you know what's going to happen, right?
I mean, that's my power pellet.
And then I'm going to be this,I'm going to be this, right.
And it's like, it's like,I'm going to be stronger.
I'm going to be faster.
I'm going to get on my bike.
I'm going to be faster than you on a bike.
I'm going to, it's going tobe like, you know what I mean?
Like, and I, and I, I, it makes mesad that kids today and not all of

(37:10):
them, because there are some parentswho are just old school and like,
nah, you're going to believe in magic.
Right.
Cause I think that's what it is.
It's like, I think kids don'tbelieve in magic anymore.
I, I, I miss, like when you were, when Ilooked at all the pop culture references,
and I want to ask you, what's one, what'sa pop culture reference that you didn't
put in the book, that you want to spot?
Because I was reading it, and I waslike, how you talking about imagination,

(37:31):
and he don't mention this one.
I know I got that kind of smoke for him.
I know it's not real smoke, but it's, youknow, it's like brother smoke, you know,

Jay Ellis (37:40):
imagination.
I missed it.
What did I miss?
I mean, I miss, I mean, I will say this,that list was cut down a little bit.
That list was trimmed a little bit andthat list almost didn't make it, which
is really, which is really interesting.
My editor and I went back and forthabout this and after she got a
couple of reads internally on it.

(38:01):
A couple of them came back and said thatlike they think that I should cut the list
and I was like not a list frames to me.
I got to set you in place in time.
And if I don't set you in place intime, if you're not familiar with it
by reading this list, You can stillsee how chaotic a lot of these things
were, that they were happening back toback to back to back to back on each

(38:23):
other, same month, same years, whatever.
Um, and ultimately I was justlike, it's gotta be in there.
But, but I think, I don't know, I'mtrying to think of what I missed.
I don't know.

Jason Reynolds (38:34):
Man, first of all, do you really, is The Rock
really your favorite wrestler?
I just, I'm curious.

Jay Ellis (38:37):
Alright.

Jason Reynolds (38:38):
Hold on, hold on.
Cause that part was wild.
Hold on, The Rock?
That part was a little wild to me.
Are you about to say Hulk Hogan, bro?
Nah, but from our generation,I'm 40, I know how old you are.
Right, we in the same range.
You really Sting?
No, that's a good answer though.
Boom.
That, he's the best.
Stone Cold?
He's the best.
And, and, and Ric Flair.

(39:01):
He's the best, he's the best.
Ric Flair is the best entertainer.
The best entertainer, the worst wrestler.
Worst wrestler, best entertainer, period.
And my favorite to watch was TheUndertaker, but if I should've
put The Undertaker, I should'veput The Undertaker there.
Come on man, Stone Cold, Steve Austinwith the big bomb, he like Bruh.
Come on man.
Stone Cold

Jay Ellis (39:17):
is a good one.
Come on.
Stone Cold is a good one.
The

Jason Reynolds (39:19):
Rock, The Rock is at the end of our generation.
He's at the end of that.
He's at the end of that.
He's not even ours for real, he like my

Jay Ellis (39:23):
little brothers.
But also, also, I was hoping thatI wish the Undertaker was in there.
I will say that because I loved theUndertaker bro with Paul Bearer, Paul

Jason Reynolds (39:32):
Bearer, singing all the notes.
And also I was like, yo, I don't knowhow you don't talk about Moonwalker.
Michael Jackson turned intoa Lamborghini and a panther.

Jay Ellis (39:46):
Can I tell you, can I tell you, can I tell you, you about to blow it.
I'm going to tell you three things thatwere actually were repeated in that
list multiple times that I took out.
I'd actually repeated, um, crack cocaine.
Yeah.
Multiple times throughout that list.
Yeah.
So people can have an understandingof how hard it actually hit our

(40:07):
communities and how present itwas, however present it was.
The second thing that was inthat list, there were multiple
Michael Jackson references.
I have Michael Jackson.
I have Michael Jacksonin a hyperbaric chamber.
I have Michael Jackson dark skinned.
I have Michael Jackson with a pet monkeyand I have Michael Jackson, light skin.
So I have multiple of them in there.

(40:31):
Because we went through, but also again in10 years we saw a very different Michael.
So like, oh, and that's culture.
Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
So like that was crazy.

Jason Reynolds (40:39):
It was, it was very strange, but our imaginations allowed us
to, our imaginations were like, it's fine.
Mike is Mike.
It's fine.
Right?
Like it's all good.
But speaking, but speaking of Mike,and speaking of sort of, speaking
of Mike and Mikey, for that matter,there's a part in the book where you
talk about sort of, where you're,you're speaking as your today self, and
you're talking about like, well, like,what exactly are imaginary friends?

(41:01):
And you start to sort of parse outhow they function, why they function
the way they do, so forth and so on.
There's a um, And, and you talk aboutlike celebrities and how like, you know,
it's, it's, it's no different than,than, than alter egos, perhaps, right?
We could argue that it'ssimilar to alter egos.
As the, as the child gets older, does theimaginary friend then become an alter ego?

(41:22):
Was Sasha Fierce somebody thatBeyonce knew 30 years ago, right?
Like, maybe.
Maybe, right?
And, and, and asking those questions.
There's an interview I read, uh, 15years ago, Lady Gaga and Rolling Stone.
And she talked about how she'svery private, she keeps everything
separate, and so forth and so on.
She said she learned to dothis from Michael Jackson.
And she said that when Michael Jacksongot his hair burned in a Pepsi commercial,

(41:46):
she said, when he falls through thebleachers, for those of you who are not
old enough for this, just, you, you,you get Googles, she falls, he, he falls
through the bleachers, And as the mad,the mad scramble happens, he puts one hand
in the air, but the hand he puts in theair is the hand with the glove, right?
So that people know that MichaelJackson, the, the, the entertainer,

(42:06):
this, this avatar is okay.
Michael Jackson, the man is okay.
is on fire, right?
But Michael Jackson, theavatar is okay, right?
And so my question is, as you as you lookback on Mikey and you and I'm trying my
best not to ruin some of the stories.
I really wanted to ask you to tellsome stories, but I actually think it's
better for people to experience it.

(42:27):
There are some really It's a, it's,this is a fire book about, you'll
learn a lot about him, and it'll makeyou, I don't know, all y'all love
him, it'll make you love him more.
Uh, ha ha ha, once you, once you reallyget to know, like, some of the things
he's been through, and also the kindof kid that he was, which actually is,
was really endearing and interesting.
Um, so I don't want to spoil that foryou, but what I will say is, Mikey was

(42:48):
there through, sort of, pep talks throughlove, Pep talks through violence and, and
gang stuff that y'all gotta read about.
Uh, Pep talks through, uh, uh,the, the moving back and forth
and all of that kind of stuff.
Pep talks through, I mean, hewasn't there as much as you got
to high school, but like thinkingabout who you were in that moment.
But he was there sort of in,in, in all these different

(43:10):
iterations of your young life.
But let's say, this is likea Drop Dead Fred moment.
Do you remember this?

Jay Ellis (43:19):
Of

Jason Reynolds (43:19):
course it is.
I was surprised you ain'tmentioned that in the book.
So let's say this is a dropdead Fred moment and Mikey walks
through the door and sits here.
What advice does Mikey get?
Like what does Mikey helpyou do in this moment?
And I'm asking you to dissociate.
So I'm asking you to dissociate.

(43:40):
Yeah.

Jay Ellis (43:40):
Yeah, that's interesting, bro.
I, um,
man.
That's interesting.
So interesting.
My first thought is he'd be like, damn,why are these people in front of us?
Are you famous?
What's happening?
Like, what did you do?
Or he'd be like, yeah, they,um, I, uh, I don't know.

(44:09):
That's such a good question, bro.
I think
he would tell me to remember toslow down I think he would tell
me to remember to be present.
I think, like, I move so fast sometimesthat, like, I don't take care of myself.
You know what I'm saying?
And not only that, but Idon't enjoy all of the moment.

(44:31):
And I think that's a very human thing.
I think we all do that.
But I think Mikey would be like,hey man, you gotta slow down.
And, and, and check,actually see where you are.
And don't mess it up.
No, don't fuck it up.
Well, you know, don't mess it up.
Excuse me.
But you know what I'm saying?
Like, you know, I think like, Ifeel like that would be like one
of the first things he would sayis like, yeah, you did the work.

(44:52):
Now slow down and enjoy it.
Also I think another thing he'dbe like, you wrote the book.
It's not yours anymore.
Let it go.

Jason Reynolds (44:58):
It's not yours.
It's definitely not yours anymore.
Would you, I often wonder, do you thinkhe would take credit for your career?

Jay Ellis (45:06):
Yeah.

Jason Reynolds (45:06):
Yeah.
Based on his personality in the book.
You're welcome.
So then, so then explain what, howdo you think he, and we're going
to take some questions in a second.
Was that right, Ramunda?
Okay.
We're going to, I got this question andI might ask one more short question and
we'll take some Q and A from you all.
Um, but, but do you think How doyou think that your relationship

(45:30):
with Mikey impacted who you became?
By the way, the, the impetus of youeven getting into all the tabloid
part is, it's brilliant because wewere all kids looking at that in the
grocery store and like, but, but howdo you think Mikey and having a Mikey,
um, contributed to you becoming J.
L.
S.
F.
Today, an actor and a person that a lot ofpeople have a lot of respect and love for.

(45:53):
And you play these rolesand you're doing your thing.
Thank you,

Jay Ellis (45:56):
bro.
Um, I talk about this in the book a littlebit, but because I moved around so much,
every school I would move to, I wouldadopt a whole new persona at that school.
Like if I didn't like How the lastpersona played out at the previous school.
Well, nobody knew him at the newschool, so I could do whatever I wanted.

(46:17):
The new school, nothingwas coming with me.
There ain't no Facebook.
Ain't no, ain't no black planet.
You know what I'm saying?
Ain't no my space.
You know what I'm saying?
So I get to start all over and Iconstantly found myself essentially
creating characters, essentiallyacting, essentially improv ing.
Uh, but I didn't know that at the time.

(46:37):
It made it.
You know, there was a stretch whereit very much felt like the only way we
could get out of our circumstance wasto play sports or sing, you know, right?
There was a, there was a time wherewe were kind of told or shown that
the only way that we could get outof our circumstance was those things.
And I being a boy of that time andhyper consumerism like gets pumped into

(47:00):
overdrive, I fall in love with basketball.
And I think like, thisis what I'm gonna do.
I'm gonna go play basketball.
And so, you know, So, that's kind of wheremy high school years took me, which then
ultimately got me a college scholarship.
And then when I was in college,all I could think about is how
jealous I was of the theater kids.
And like, I actuallywanted to be over there.
And I used a bunch of my electivesto take classes around the theater

(47:23):
program because I could never committo a production because I was hooping.
And so, I get done with school andI'm like, all right, well now what?
I wanted to move to NewYork to be in theater.
Alright, well now what?
Dude, you just want to be on TV, bro.
So just, like, you want to tell stories.
You want to be an actor.
Like, that's what you want to do.

(47:43):
So, like, go to the place to do that.
And I honestly don't know, I thinkwriting this book really helped me
understand that, like, oh, that is whatI was wanting to do and pretending to
do and playing at when I was a kid.
I just didn't really know what it was.
That's it.
And it was really this thing thatwas inside me the whole time.

(48:04):
I just had to go on ajourney to get back to it.
And fortunately I was able to getback to it and find it and then make
a living in a career as an actor.
So I think there's a profound effect ofMikey in my life for how I got here today.

Jason Reynolds (48:18):
Let's open it up.
I asked my last question later on.
Let's open it up.

Ramunda Young (48:22):
Yeah, so let's give it up.
Let's give it up.
Let's give it up.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes So what I want to give a coupleof just quick Instructions because we
want to make sure you get your booksigned get a quick photo all that
kind of good stuff So we'll open up myhusband's on this side with microphone.
I'm gonna do questions on this Iwill do about four questions two
over there and two over here, honey.

(48:43):
You want to start on your side?
Okay, so come on down come on down orif we need to come to you if there's a
there's a concern I'll come up to you, but
Hi, good afternoon.
Thank you so much.
Um, I have a quick question,just a quick comment.
Like, I'm African and I can't, can't evenimagine like telling my African parents
that I had like an imaginary friend.

(49:03):
They'd be like, blood of Jesus, youdo not have an imaginary friend.
Um, I think the closest I had was likewatching Mary Poppins and like trying
to jump into my mother's oil paintings.
Like that's, that's it.
But just, you know, kindof linked to my comment.
If a parent has a childand, you know, they're.
Talking about an imaginary friend,how would you recommend they, you

(49:23):
know, discuss that or, like, approachthat in a way, like, we have all this
language now and all these concerns.
What would you say is, like,the best way for them to talk
to their child about this?

Jay Ellis (49:33):
Yeah, this is, this is actually really fun, because
I'm in this world right now.
Uh, thank you for your question.
Um, My parents did pray for me.
I just want you.
There was anointing oils.
There's anointing oils right here.
I just want to be very clear.
There's a lot of praying.
You don't say it.
I want to be real oils.

(49:56):
But, uh, um, I'm kind of in this spaceright now cause my daughter has, friends,
but then she's at that age where kidsin her school have imaginary friends
and parents are always like, Oh myGod, my kid has an imaginary friend.
Is he going to be weird?
Does she going to be weird?
Like what's happening?
And I always pull them to the sideand I say like, let your kid be a kid.
Like let their imagination run wild.

(50:17):
Cause the minute you take thataway from them, what do you might
as well take all of it away?
You know what I'm saying?
If that's the case, then you mightas well just pull all the wool
away because you're asking themto be older than what they are.
And yes, There are times where likesome of our children may be a little
bit behind and, and we're, we're tryingto push them a little bit closer.
But for the most part, we'realways trying to push our kids.

(50:38):
Like, man, I can't wait tillshe's not wearing diapers no more.
Whoo!
Like, man, I can't wait.
And it's like, they're a kid.
Like, they're supposed to gothrough some of those steps.
And so I think we have toremember that and, uh, encourage
that and let them have that.
Because once it gets real, as weall know, It ain't no going back.
So let them have it because it'llonly serve them later in life.

(50:58):
And then I think the last piece of thatreal quick, sorry, is just, um, uh,
making sure that we are talking to ourkids about their imaginary friends in
a way that, um, doesn't let our kidsuse their imaginations to sometimes do
things that may not be safe for them.

(51:19):
Right?
I think we do have to make sure thatwe're like also being like, okay, well,
Billy tell you to go run in the street.
Don't listen to Billy.
Okay.
Like whatever that is, like I thinkwe have to make sure that we are
talking to our kids about safetystill, even with these imaginary
friends, because like I was doing dumbstuff with my imaginary friend that
could have gone sideways very fast.

Ramunda Young (51:39):
Question on this hand.
We're doing questions,comments, TED talks.
Not this
time.
Good question.
Hi Jason.
Hi Jay.
Thank you so much.

Jay Ellis (51:51):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Um, You spoke so much about creativityand imagination and I was wondering
if you could kind of break down how,um, the creative experiences and
differs from acting versus the actof writing and expressing yourself on
the page versus on stage or on film.
Yeah, uh, it was a weird, weird experience.

(52:15):
Uh, uh,
wildly being vulnerable as a performer
Chill.
Uh, but it's what I do every day.
In the same way that someone couldstand up in front of a group of people
and speak if they were a professor.
They're like, that's whatI do every day, right?
And I think, um, I have also had theluxury of having really great writing on

(52:41):
some of the things I've been able to do.
And I've also When I haven't hadgreat writing, I can hide behind that
and be like, well, I ain't write it.
Uh, my performance isgood, but I ain't write it.
So if you don't like thestory, that ain't on me.
This, for, for, this was thefirst, this is the first time
where it's like, it is me.
It's all me.
There's nothing to hide behind, but me.

(53:02):
Uh, and so I think there was a, there,that was a very sobering thing at
times because I was like, Oh, thisis, I have to put my all into this.
Yeah.
Nope.
Not going to say that, but there aresome folks, there are some folks,
there are some folks who writebooks and they don't spend a lot
of time in front of the computer.

(53:25):
It is true though.

Ramunda Young (53:26):
That's true.

Jay Ellis (53:27):
It's true.
And I couldn't imagine that.
I couldn't imagine that.
I understand why.
I understand how busy life can be.
I understand how, um, howafraid you can get doing it.
But I, when I realized that like, Oh,I don't get to hide behind anybody.
It had to be me.
Because then at least if it didn'twork out, I could say it's on me.
I can't blame it on nobody else.

(53:48):
And when you go and read it, Ican't be like, well, he did it.
You know what I mean?
I wrote it.
So it's on me.
And that was another thingthat like really woke me up.
It made me like fully focused.
Hi.
Oh, you got it.
I'm sorry.

(54:08):
I'm like, hi Jason and Jay.
Thank you so much.
My name's Elsie.
And I just have a quick question.
Um, you said 68%
Children have an imaginary friend cando you know what year it is has the
data increased throughout the year?
Do you think social media plays a rolein imaginary friends aren't decreasing?
Is there a support some kind of curious?

(54:29):
I am excited to read the book tonight.
It's my bedtime story But I dowant to know like with Like it's
a 68 percent currently as it isthis year 2024 or was that during
your time when you were growing up?
Is that your percentage and thenIs there a difference in data
now that we see social media?
Cause there wasn't social media atthe time that you were growing up.
Yeah.
So the, the studies that I use in thebook or articles, uh, or other books

(54:53):
that I cite range from like 1986 tolike 2022, there's a, there's about five
or six of them in there and they allhave a different, timestamp, obviously,
and they were done at different times.
So there's a bit of arange of data in there.
Uh, one of the things very specificallyto the 68%, which you will read tonight
when you go to bed, uh, because that'sin the first couple of pages, but, uh,

(55:16):
it tends to be between like four or fiveyears old and 10, 11 years old is when
most kids have their imaginary friend.
Um, It doesn't obviouslygo into worldwide.
It doesn't go into like differentcontinents or different cultures.
It's obviously a more general statement,but about five to 10, five to 11.

(55:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Ramunda Young (55:40):
Awesome.
Last question.
Hey, what's going on?
J Jason.
Um, so I've been doing a lot of researchabout speculative imagination and how
I'm in stories like Afrofuturism andeverything, our imagination, imagination.
Kind of creates these worlds,um, that can be a bit better
than the world that we're in.

(56:01):
Um, you talked a lot about how aschildren, we have our imagination, we get
older, we kind of lose that imagination,but it's very clear you still have yours.
So, um, if you and Mikey had anopportunity to use your imagination to
solve a problem in today's world to makeit a bit better, what might that be?

Jay Ellis (56:18):
Oh man.
Well, I mean, we are in a dumpster fireright now, so I guess we would just try
to put the lid on the dumpster so wecan put the flames out because we in it.
We in the eye of it.
Um, First of all, thankyou for your question.
Uh, and I lost my imaginationalong the way, by the way.
I think like, and I thinkit happens to all of us.

(56:39):
I think I found it because I cameinto acting and I got to play
in a different way, but then thebusiness of entertainment also
kind of takes that out of you.
And you get a little bit of jaded andyou just show up and you do it a job
and then you got to go fill your cupagain and find how you're inspired.
And so I do think it's a rollercoaster.
I don't think it's all or nothing.
Um, I would say, you know, in,in terms of a problem, man, I, I,

(57:02):
I don't know, man.
I, I, I think my firstthought would be education.
And when I say that, I think peopleforget how wildly important, not, not
necessarily the same people in thisroom, um, but I think people forget how
wildly important those years are and howthey will ultimately, not, ultimately,

(57:24):
Not that you will not change along theway, but they will set up so much of the
person that you are going to become andwhat you believe and how you move and
who you associate with in terms of, uh,race or religion or whatever it may be.
And I think there is this, um, opennessor curiosity or wonder that I would want

(57:44):
myself and Mikey to hopefully be able totackle and open up both in the adults,
Who teach children and then also makingsure that those children have it because
that's that that's who's gonna be takingcare of us Down the line, you know I
mean when we're sitting at the houseand they're running the world and and I
think we're in that place where we haveto Make sure we're constantly investing

(58:06):
and introducing and making sure they'rereading And also making sure that we're
using our emotional intelligence In a waythat allows them to be the fullest person.
They can be awesome.

Ramunda Young (58:20):
Awesome.

Jason Reynolds (58:22):
Do I get to ask my last question?

Ramunda Young (58:24):
Yes.
Come on brother.
Jason, you can ask your last question.
Yes.

Jason Reynolds (58:27):
My last question, which I've asked 1000 people
whenever I do these events.
Um, if you can go back to your10 year old self, what would
you think 10 year old J for

Jay Ellis (58:49):
still believing Still believing.
Cause when you kill hope,you know what I mean?
I do.
When you kill belief,when you kill imagination,
then what?
Then what?
You kill the spirit.
Then you kill the spirit.
You know what I mean?
Then what?
Um, and so I think it's that man.

(59:09):
I think I, I joke with people all thetime when they're like about me being
an actor and I go, look, I was juststupid enough to believe I could do it.
Yeah.
Like, We have to be able to believein something, something bigger than
us, a different world, a differentsituation, a different job, a different
life circumstance, whatever it may be,we have to be able to believe in that.

(59:29):
And if, if not, thenwhat are we doing here?
And so I, I think like there aresome things that by 10 years old,
there's some things that didn't makethe book that I don't talk about.
I didn't want to write a bookabout trauma necessarily, not that
there's anything wrong with that.
That's just not the story that Iwanted to write about imagination.
And.
Enjoy and creativity and play, butI think there are some things that
I saw and a lot of us see veryyoung in life that could kill that.

(59:54):
And the people around you because of thevery serious survival situation that they
are put in could kill that inadvertentlyand advertently depending on who it is.
And then you kind ofhave, you're just here.
So yeah,

Jason Reynolds (01:00:11):
the best of life is for the unreasonable.
Ladies and gentlemen, Pleasegive it up for Jay Ellis.

Ramunda Young (01:00:22):
Yes.
Yes.
Give it up for Jason Reynolds to

Jay Ellis (01:00:25):
give it up for Jason, please.

Ramunda Young (01:00:27):
Give it up for Mahogany books

Briana Littlejohn (01:00:29):
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