Alie Ward - Host of Ologies; TV Host & Correspondent; Science Communicator - Manage the Moment: Conversations in Performance Psychology

Episode Transcript
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Dr. Shepp (00:08):
Thanks for tuning in to manage the moment
conversations in performancepsychology.
I'm Dr.
Sari Shepphird.

Alie Ward (00:16):
Having voice is such a privilege and I think that
using it authentically and usingit to maybe shine a light on
things that you don't want totalk about is is kind of a way
to honor that privilege becauseif you have the privilege of
having a platform and you have amegaphone and you don't say

(00:38):
anything risky into it, thatmegaphone is only serving you.

Dr. Shepp (00:45):
Alie Ward, or"Dad Ward", as she is affectionately
known to her listeners, is awriter, television host and
correspondent, sciencecommunicator, and the host of
the immensely popular podcastOlogies.
That may sound like a longresume of activities, but Alie
accomplishes them all withstellar flare and with great
comedic timing, a rare andwonderful combination.

(01:09):
On this episode, Alie sharesabout her performance world per
discovery of an internalmotivation from her work and the
rewards of being authentic, notjust in her personal life but in
her very public one as well.
Alie also talks candidly aboutthe perils and the privilege of
being in the public eye.
And she and I also talk candidlyabout setting the reset button

(01:29):
after challenging lifeexperiences.
I'm excited to share thesemoments with you and for you to
get to know Alie Ward.
Good morning, Alie.
Good morning.
Thank you so much for sittingdown with me this morning.
Or are you sitting down?
Because you're such a busywoman.
So I don't know.

Alie Ward (01:47):
I was sitting down at a standing desk, so a little bit
of both.

Dr. Shepp (01:53):
Well, the tables are turned.
We met on your podcast and youwere gracious enough to have me
on.
Thank you.
And I'm so excited to be able tosit down with you today and
learn a little bit more aboutyour world and the way you
approach your performancebecause you are involved in so
many different aspects of, um,of performance.
I think it's gonna make for agreat conversation.

(02:14):
So thanks again for being here.

Alie Ward (02:17):
Oh, I've listened to our episode in times when I was
having performance anxiety andso you have helped me like a
year after our episode.
I, I've, I've definitely satdown and re listen to it and
yeah, so much.

Dr. Shepp (02:30):
Oh that's great to hear.
I'm glad to hear that.

Alie Ward (02:33):
You should invoice me .

Dr. Shepp (02:38):
(laughs) Well you refer to yourself as a science
communicator and, and I can seewhy because you're involved on
so many different levels in, inscience and just being able to
help everyday people understandwhat science is about through
your role as on as acorrespondent and also on your
podcast.
Um, but it, you're more thanjust a science communicator
cause you're also a comedian.

(02:59):
I'm interested in how you cantake topics like scorpions and
bleach and, and make thosetopics really interesting and
also funny at the same time.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you approach just writing
the copy for your podcast and um, and making science really
interesting to people.

Alie Ward (03:20):
Oh, this is, this is so weird to have the tables
turned into, be interviewedabout vetted.
I'm so, I'm so honored.
I love what I do.
And you know, I, it's achallenge every week to take
something that people would notthink is funny and to try to
make it funny.
And I think that's kind of partof the challenge is what drives

(03:40):
me.
But I always loved comedy and Ialways loved writing and I also
loved science.
And so when I was in college Iwas really trying to figure out,
well, should I, should I be aperformer or should I be a
science person or scientist?
And I was a double major for awhile.
I was studying biology and itwas also studying film and

(04:00):
theater and studio arts.
And I really had a hard timebalancing it felt very much
either or.
It felt very binary.
You're either going to go intothe sciences, you're going to go
into the arts.
And um, so it took a long timefor me to kind of figure out
that I wanted to use art tocommunicate science.
And you know, I thought even ifI went into documentary

(04:23):
filmmaking, like that's notfunny usually.
So you know, like to be able totake a topic that most people
have been exposed to via a drydocumentary or via a textbook or
via a cautionary news articleand try to make it relatable and
funny is it's the ultimatechallenge every week.

(04:46):
But I'm kind of lucky becausenot a lot of people do that.
So the bar is set pretty lowbecause nobody else really does
it so well.
It's great.
There's no precedent.
I really have to, I have to liveup to,

Dr. Shepp (04:57):
well, it's, it is so entertaining because there's
topics that you address that arereally serious, like breast
cancer and um, the all theterrible things that can happen
to us as we age.
Um, but, but you can still laughout loud when you listen to
those episodes because you domake it really relatable.
And so is your goal to, to makeit entertaining and relatable,

(05:18):
uh, above and beyond theinformation that you communicate
or is, is it really your goalfor it to help us all understand
these really important topics?
First and foremost?
You know, I think it's

Alie Ward (05:29):
really just to get people to be more curious and to
embrace kind of the wonder thatwe had as kids.
You know, as kids, everything isso new, so of course you're
learning.
But I think a lot of times as weage, um, we turn off that
curiosity about the everydayworld.
And so I think it's like, italmost feels like, uh, you know,

(05:55):
when people, I'm trying to thinkof those cookbooks, someone like
grinds up broccoli and like putsit in a pan of brownies and then
like jokes on you kid.
You just say Florida broccoli.
Like I feel like it's a littlebit, a little bit of both.
Like I, I'm trying to get peopleentertained that way before they
know it.
They've absorbed a bunch ofinformation about the natural

(06:16):
world or about medicine.
So I think like there has to bea little bit of a tacit promise.
Like this will be a littleentertaining.
Don't worry, I'm not going tolike leave you high and dry
where you're just going to bebored.
You know?
They mean absolutely.
No, I've, I've never been boredlistening to one of your, your
episodes on the podcast.
In fact, I don't think you couldhave paid me money to listen to

(06:40):
40 minutes about bleach, but Ihave recommended that podcast
episode now to multiple people.
It's, it's just, it's fantasticpartly because listen to this
great episode and it's actuallyon bleach.
Um, but, but it is, it's aninformative and entertaining.
So you do a really great job.
Oh my God, thank you.
It's like, you know, there's,it's almost like a, I don't know

(07:02):
if you're a musician, clientsever feel this, but there's
almost like a, a music Allity toit.
There's almost like a rhythm,you know, where I'm in a song,
you might have a bridge and achorus and then you might have
the beat might drop.
And so I feel like when I'mmaking episodes, I'm, I really
have to like play out somescience before you feel almost
like this tension build and thenyou have to break it with

(07:23):
something funny or weird or aconfession of mine or a play on
words or something.
So it's almost like a, it's likedriving a clutch, like putting
the clutch down until, you know,you can shift gear.
Uh, it's kind of like that whenI'm writing the episode where,
okay, I think I've given them asmuch science as they can handle
and now I have to, I've got tobreak it with, uh, with

(07:45):
something stupid, you know?
But so you do approach your,your writing with that in mind
is, is you want to have kind ofa, not a formula, but a, a
process where you incorporateboth the science that you
research and then also a littlebit of levity and just humor to
it.
Yeah.
And it's funny because, youknow, one thing that you realize

(08:06):
with comedy is if you're tryingto find the thing that's really
funny, um, it's a lot easiersometimes than you realize cause
all you have to do is just findwhat's true.
Um, you know, if you're tryingto be funny, it's really hard if
you're trying to be honest.
That just takes a little bit ofbravery.
And so usually that comedy comesfrom me just being very honest

(08:31):
with what I didn't know aboutthe subject.
You know what I'm curious aboutyou even if it's, you know, kind
of gross or embarrassing or, oroff topic.
So a lot of times I just have tobe really honest with myself
when I'm writing and just kindof strip away any artifice.
It just, you know, let my mindbe kind of um, uh, exposed.

(08:54):
And that is usually where, wherethe easiest writing comes from.

Dr. Shepp (08:58):
Well, I'll let your listeners discover your story
about cutting off antlers with ahat.
[inaudible]

Speaker 4 (09:06):
I sat through some antlers once and I regretted the
decision immediately.
It smells real bad and whenyou're about one minute into it,
you're like a board, a board, aboard consult professional.

Dr. Shepp (09:19):
But that would be an example of honesty that turns
out to be really funny.

Alie Ward (09:27):
It's like, you know, when grandpa's on the porch and
he's telling the same storyagain, like, no, I've, I also
sometimes will have norecollection of what stories
I've told cause I'm a hundredepisodes deep.
What's is like a hundred hoursof content.
So I'm like, Oh yeah, that'sright.
I told people about that.
Um, but yeah, oof, don't do thatin a bathtub yet.

Dr. Shepp (09:57):
What you want it to be in, um, in film and
television since you were young.
And, and so where did thatdesire come from?
So as you're, as you're thinkingabout what you want to be, when
you're, when you grow up as alittle girl and you kind of
settled on TV and film, how didyou come to that?
You know, I think, I wonder too,

Alie Ward (10:15):
how many of your clients are in the youngest
children?
Um, I feel like there'ssomething with the youngest kid
where it's like the first kidhelps raise the other ones and
the middle kid is, uh, maybe hasa little bit more leeway to be
themselves, but the younger kidis just desperate for attention.
So I think, um, you know, my, myrole in my family was always

(10:38):
kind of, um, a little bit ofgoofiness and, um, spasming out
a little bit, you know, uh, tobreak tension.
And so I always had a really funtime, uh, like writing and
creating characters and I reallyloved theater and I really loved
performing when I was younger.
But, you know, I, I, at the sametime I got a microscope and I

(11:01):
was a kid.
And just looking at that andlooking at bugs and Moss and
pond water and dust bunniesunder this microscope, I just
was like, I fell in love withscience cause I realized that
there's this world that youmight take for granted without
understanding how it works.
You know, I remember learningabout photosynthesis and

(11:21):
thinking, wow, that we just walkby a lawn and don't even think
about all this magic that'shappening, you know?
And so I really kind of, yeah, Ihad, I had a problem deciding
between the two, but, um, butyeah, with, with performance and
with theater and with film, Ijust really loved the creative
process and I loved that youcould have an idea and it could

(11:44):
be as weird as you wanted it tobe and it might delight other
people and that, and it's alsoscary.
I mean, performing isterrifying.
I mean, I still get scared a lotand I think that there's
probably a little bit of a rushwhen it goes well that is really
gratifying.
You know, just like if you'regoing to go for a jog and, and

(12:06):
you hit a good time, you know,um, you break your last record,
there's a little bit of anaccomplishment there.
So I think that there'ssomething rewarding when you
perform that feels like anaccomplishment.
So I think I always kind ofliked that too.
But um, yeah, I always was.
Even in my family today, my, mysisters and my parents are super

(12:27):
funny so everyone just tries tocrack everyone up.
So I think this is a little bitof a culture of that in my
family.
Will you talk about yourcreative process and how much
you enjoy that and then thesatisfaction when it, when it
goes well you are, you'retalking about subjectively when
it feels like it goes well toyou or when you receive external
like validation and praise forwhat you do or a combination of

(12:49):
both.
I that's a such a good question.
Um, and that intrinsic versusextrinsic, that has been
something that I think about alot with my work.
And I think it really feels likewhen you feel like you're being
honest and, and it is wellreceived, that that is kind of

(13:09):
the golden pairing is when youfeel like you've really brought
yourself to her performance andyou brought all that you had.
And, uh, especially when itcomes to, you know, writing, you
really showed up kind ofstripped away from artifice and
it resonated with people andmade them feel more seen.
That is when it really feelsgratifying.

(13:32):
Um, you know, I've, I might haveepisodes that get more plays
than others or I've been onwhole TV series that didn't feel
like myself and that didn't feelgratifying, you know.
Um, so, you know, I found in mycareer having done, you know, I
work for cooking channel for abit and it was great and a lot

(13:52):
of that was really fun, but I atthe end of the day, didn't
necessarily want to be talkingabout cakes and cupcakes and
stuff I wanted to be talkingabout.
Yeah.
Like scorpion butts and uh, knowlike Eagle squawking and we're
lizard meeting and stuff.
I wanted to talk about thenatural world more so the
success that I get from mypodcast.

(14:14):
Um, I was worried I wouldn't beas successful as I was talking
about, you know, donuts andcupcakes.
And I've found two foldgratification that I've ended up
being more objectivelysuccessful.
But also for me it's felt muchmore gratifying cause I know I'm
bringing myself to the table ina way that's much more honest.

(14:36):
And so yeah, sometimes I have toget out of my head and, and
realize like, okay, if I'm downon myself for something, um, is
it external?
Is it external or is itinternal?
You know, did I, did I bringeverything I could to it and am
I happy with what I made?
Cause that's, that's what reallymatters.
And having other people, um,identify and feel kind of

(15:00):
delighted or seen is really,that's really when it feels the
best.

Dr. Shepp (15:04):
That's fantastic.
You found a way to merge yourpublic and personal personas.

Alie Ward (15:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
What a thing to cherish.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, it's really, there was areally big mental shift for me
when that happened because Ithink I felt like, well, I'm,
I'm on this TV show and I'm, Ihave this job that everyone is
saying, Oh, you're so lucky.
But, um, I'm hypoglycemic.
So for me I'm like, when I eatdonuts, I feel like I could have

(15:30):
a little bit, but when I'meating 17 donuts a day on
camera, I feel like garbage.
So it's like even the basic likephysiology of it, I was like, I
don't feel good.
So I hid that I was really intoscience for a long time cause it
just wasn't my brand.
And so, um, when I made, when Ikind of slowly made that shift
and especially starting makingologies and I felt like, okay,

(15:52):
this is what I'm into, anytakers?
And I found out that there weretakers.
I was like, Oh my God, I couldhave been doing this all along,
you know.
But I thought no one would careabout the stuff I cared about
and it turns out people do.
So that's a huge, that was ahuge relief for me.

Dr. Shepp (16:07):
Well you mentioned brand, which I think is
something interesting to talkabout as a performer because so
much so these days we focus onwhat someone's brand is and how
they come across and we, we liketo keep people in their boxes
and we want to know who theyare.
And if they vary from that, itmakes us uncomfortable.
Uh, so everyone, I think pigeonpigeonholes themselves more

(16:30):
these days because you kind ofhave to stick to your brand.
Yeah.
So as, as someone in the, in thepublic eye, how do you manage
being yourself, feeling like youhave the freedom to walk in your
own shoes and, um, show up asyourself everywhere you go, and
yet pay attention to what peopleare wanting from your brand.

Alie Ward (16:52):
Uh, you, you ask such great questions.
I mean, also you're like as a,you know, as someone who is on
the other side of the couch,you're, you're, uh, an expert at
X asks you a question, so you'reso good at this.
Um, but you know, and that is,that's a great question too.
I think that nowadays, um,curating a persona is part of a

(17:18):
lot of people in the public eyesjob, you know, and even if you
just look at an Instagramaccount, a lot of brands will
have a color scheme, you know,they'll have Pantone chips of
like everything is either goingto be a mossy green or a nice
delicate peach color.
So I mean things are curateddown to the pixel, you know, and

(17:38):
um, for so long for me I feltlike, um, I had to be very
polished online and I felt like,um, I had to always, you know,
kind of show up looking like atleast I'd showered and, um, and
I think that I found that kindof the more honest I was, the

(17:58):
easier it became for me becauseI never felt like there was a
gotcha moment waiting.
You know, I think, um, and Ithink shame plays a part of
that.
You know, I mean shame is a bigword and everyone has some kind
of degree of elemental shame ofI don't want anyone to see how
messy my offices are.
Well, I have a zit today and Idon't want a picture, you know,
whether it's big, big shame orwhether it's just little thing,

(18:21):
like I'm kind of embarrassed.
Um, you know, I think that thatis a stumbling block in our head
a lot because we don't realizethat the things that bring us
embarrassment or shame canactually a lot of times bring
other people peace and comfortbecause they realize, Oh, this
person is like me.
I'm not that weird.
You know?

(18:41):
And so when it comes to curatingan online persona, the more
tightly you try to control itand the more polished you try to
present, um, ends up being notgratifying internally because
you feel like whatevervalidation or praise you're
getting for it is for a falsepersona.
You know, if you get 100,000likes on a picture, that's
airbrushed.

(19:02):
Does it feel, does it feelgratifying?
You know, congratulations.
Someone liked artifice, youknow, but, um, but if you kind
of show up online in a way thatfeels authentic, you get that
gratification back that you'vebeen seeing and you might make
other people feel a little bitmore human too.
So I think, um, the hardest partfor me is that I, I try not to

(19:26):
swear as much online as I do inmy podcast.
And so, um, cause I work onkids' shows and so, you know,
for, for the sake of the kidsshows that I work on online is,
uh, as I tried to clean it up alittle bit and some, sometimes
that's a struggle, but, um, butyeah, I found that the selfies
with messy hair and, uh, aremore comforting to people then

(19:50):
than showing up like you've hada stylist.
So there's comfort in that forme.

Dr. Shepp (19:54):
Well, it's great that there's the two, the two sides
to that because you do helppeople to relate to you.
Um, and I think that probablycontributes to your success.
People want to tune into someonewho's relatable, I'm sure when
it comes to your podcast.
And, but at the same time youfeel like you have more freedom.
And I imagine your performancethen is also stronger because

(20:18):
you have the knowledge that ifyou just show up as yourself and
you don't try to have, um, thatartifice as part of what you
bring, then, then I imaginedthat it makes your performance
that much better.

Alie Ward (20:30):
I think it does.
And, um, I think that everyonewho writes, especially if you
kind of feel like you're writingin a vacuum, like, you know, for
my podcast, I write it andrecord it alone.
I put it out and, um, and I'mnot there watching people
listen.
So I don't always know whatlands.
But I think if you are a writeror a performer who puts things

(20:52):
out, recorded, doing some kindof live exercises or you know,
doing some kind of improv thatcan, that can be so helpful
because you get that immediatefeedback to understand what
lands.
And a lot of times what's beensurprising for me when I've
done, you know, livestorytelling or done monologues
at same upright citizens brigadefor their live shows.

(21:16):
Um, the things that I think aregoing to be funny or not what
people laugh at, it's theselittle moments that you look up
and you're like, Oh, I did that.
Get a laugh.
Cause it's you, you just saidsomething incredibly honest.
And that is what got people tolaugh and that's what got people
to see something in themselves.
And, um, I think that that is anincredibly painful

Dr. Shepp (21:38):
process by the way, is when you go on stage and you
deliver something you'd think isfunny and nobody laughs like
that.
It's just like, Oh, like I wouldrather get like a Dodge ball
lobbed at my head, but it'sreally informative because you
realize, Oh, these[inaudible]

Alie Ward (21:50):
little moments where I was just speaking super
myself, that that's, that's kindof what is valuable.
And so, um, so I think that whenyou're writing, yeah, you always
have to ask yourself, am Itrying to be funny or not?
Or am I trying to be honest?
And, um, and that's, that's areally good compass to have I

(22:11):
think, because you realize thatwhen in doubt, just say what
you're thinking.
And that's usually a really goodguidance.

Dr. Shepp (22:23):
That's a great point.
I also wanted to just circleback to something you, you said
about, um, when you deliver aline in it and it doesn't land
the way you wanted it to, yourperspective is that you learned
from that.
So I didn't hear you say thatyou felt shame or that you want
to walk away with, um, you know,your tail between your legs, it
feeling like a failure, but you,you learn from that, you learn

(22:45):
about yourself and also how to,um, improve your performance as
you go.
So you take something away fromthose experiences, which I think
is really wise.

Alie Ward (22:52):
Yeah, it's definitely a way to kind of sharpen your
skills or to walk away knowingsomething.
I mean, it definitely depends onwho's in the audience.
If you're dating someone andit's new,

Dr. Shepp (23:03):
don't invite them to a show.
You don't know how it's going togo.
But like a,

Alie Ward (23:09):
or maybe maybe it would, maybe it would keep you
on your toes.
But yeah, I mean, I think everytime you do anything that you're
passionate about, if you'repassionate about it, you can be
super grateful that you learnedsomething and you got better at
it.
And that's one thing aboutallergies I love doing is it,
you know, I talked to everyoneeach week who's really
passionate about what they do.

(23:30):
They've made a career out of it.
You know, like talking to you,I'm talking to you about how you
married psychology and sportsand that, that was kind of the
culture in your family too, andhow you really like helping
people get better at what theydo best.
And I love hearing from peoplewho love what they do because
it's also validation that you'regoing to be best at doing the

(23:54):
thing you love because you'renot going to want to get better
at something if you're not thatinto it.
But when you're reallypassionate about what you do,
you take those stumbles andthose, um, it pitfalls as a gift
to get better because all youwant to do is be great at what
you do because you love it, youknow?

Dr. Shepp (24:15):
No, that's fine.
That's fantastic.
It's great to hear that you'velanded on something that you
really love and that you'rereally passionate about.
But at the same time, you'vealso said that in the past that
you sometimes feel guilty fordoing that creative thing that
you really want to do and youfeel like it's almost a little
doughnut or reward at the end ofyour day because you kind of put
that off until everything elseis done.

(24:36):
So you're still kind of findingthat, that balance of being able
to give yourself permission todo what you're most passionate
about.
Yes.
Oh my God.
Your research goes deep.
You're going to, you have toinvoice me for this.
It's so true.
I mean,

Alie Ward (24:53):
I love writing and I love making the show.
And it's funny cause I end upbeing like, okay, I've got to do
billing.
I've got to, um, you know, uh,shoot an email to my accountant.
I've got to assemble the shelf Ibought from Ikea.
I've got to do all these thingsbefore I sit down to write.

(25:13):
And I, one thing that's changeda little bit that's helped is,
um, I just set up a home office,which I haven't had for 10
years.
Like I went freelance, I quit myjob at the LA times and I went
freelance in 2009.
This is, we're coming up likeliterally this week I think is
the anniversary.
Um, happy anniversary and thankyou.

(25:35):
And, um, and so I've beenworking at my kitchen table and
on my couch for a decade.
And so this is the first time Ihave like a little desk,
literally a desk to sit at.
And it's been really funnybecause in the past two weeks
I've been saying to myboyfriend, I'm like, I'm so
happy.
I'm like, I'm so happy I have adesk.

(25:56):
And he's like, why does thatmake such a difference?
I was like, I don't know.
I guess there's a, there was alittle bit of a shift between
like, okay, I'm working, I'm notjust, you know, sitting at my
kitchen table, um, stealingtime.
Like I'm showing up for work ina way that feels more legit, I
guess.
Um, but yeah, and I, I, uh, Ialso put up a big chalkboard.

(26:17):
Uh, one wall of the office is achalkboard.
And so I now have a schedule,I'm looking at it right now.
That's his Monday.
I do all the social media.
Tuesday I go through my firstpass on the episode, I write
Wednesday and Thursday.
So now I have it a little bitcore enough for myself, which
has been, um, which is reallyexciting cause yeah, I do love

(26:38):
it so much that I feel like itdoesn't feel like legit cause I
would be doing it for free.

Dr. Shepp (26:45):
That's awesome.
Yeah, that's great.
If you wake up in the morningand you found something that you
would, you would do for free andcan still earn a living at it,
that's, that's really hittingthe jacket.

Alie Ward (26:55):
Yeah.
I feel super lucky in the firstsix months I was losing money at
it.
So I was like, I remember I had,you know, paid my sound
engineer.
I'd bought equipment, I had, um,invested in artwork and, and I
invested in, you know, my themesong costs$1,500.
And, um, which I, you know, allof that.

(27:17):
I was like, what am I doing?
Am I doing, what have I done?
What have I done?
Why did I do this?
And I remember thinking, this isthe stupidest move I've ever
made.
And it ended up being this, thesmartest move.
My roommate, it started to getpopularity and I started to be
able to monetize it.
But, um, yeah, I was in that, Iwas bleeding out money in the
beginning cause it was justsomething I wanted to make so

(27:37):
much, you know.
So it's tough.
There's a leap

Dr. Shepp (27:40):
and now you're more than a hundred episodes into it.
And, and so far you've looked atthings like disasters and coral
and the constitution,reproductive health, addiction,
video games, aging, which was bythe way, a great episode.
Um, um, I love, I love how youhandled that because as I was

(28:01):
listening, I was getting alittle nervous at the way the
person you interviewed was, wasresponding and I was feeling a
little almost nervous for youand, and you handled that
really, really well.
Like you didn't break your format all.
Um, and, um, yet you managed tokind of break the tension and as
you went back and edited, um,your conversation and you added

(28:23):
in some of your own commentary.
So it, it made for a greatepisode.
But, um, Finch, the world'sleading

Alie Ward (28:31):
bio gerontologist, this guy is like the dude you
talk to.
I was so nervous.
I was so, I was so honored andthrilled.
I was getting to go meet him.
I was like, he, uh, I wouldn'tcall it, he's not fussy, he's
just very Curt and in, in themiddle of it I was just like, Oh

(28:51):
no, I think he hates doing this.
And so that's another way thatwhen it comes to writing, just
being honest about it was thebest thing to do.
Cause if I tried to just pretendlike it was a normal interview,
um, it would have kind of maybefallen flat.
But I heard from listeners thattheir favorite part of that
episode is just when I cut itand being like, does this guy

(29:12):
hate me?
It was great.
Same thing that was oneveryone's mind.
And so, um, that's anotherexample of just like say what's
real and that is, uh, that'syour compass.
You know,

Dr. Shepp (29:25):
I laughed out loud there and the laughter just, it
breaks the tension but, but thenit makes the, the rest of the
interview even more interestingbecause you kind of feel for
where you were when you wereinterviewing and um, yeah.
That's great.

Alie Ward (29:39):
You said so many nice things.
As soon as I turned off therecorder, he was like,
[inaudible] great interview.
That was great.
Great Christians.

Dr. Shepp (29:45):
I was like, you would just so you never know what's on
someone's mind.
Like I heard he was having aball and I just said no more.
That's great.
Oh, that's great.
That's great.
And some of your otherinterviews were on about things
like fear and beer and sex andvolcanoes and gut biomes and
beauty standards and theapocalypse.
I don't know, maybe some ofthose are linked to the, to the

(30:08):
last one actually.
But uh, but um, you are a womanbringing these topics and making
them really appealing andinteresting.
And it's, and it's interestingin and of itself that you are
women bringing these topicsbecause you've talked about how
many women might be afraid to bewrong when they represent their
gender in science.

(30:28):
And you make all of these topicseasy to understand and yet
really, really interesting.
And I think peak people'scuriosity.
So how is it that you feel, um,about the importance of being a
woman communicating thismaterial?

Alie Ward (30:44):
That's a, that's a really interesting question and
it's a great perspective.
I mean it's, it is tough becauseyou feel like a lot of people
can't name a female sciencecommunicator.
They go, Oh, don't lie.
There was no grass.
Dyson, um, Adam Savage who, whoelse, you know, so you feel like
you better, you better bring itwhen you represent it.

(31:04):
And, um, and I hear this fromalso people who are in, um, STEM
fields and might representdiversity among their lab.
You know, so that was a littlebit scary is saying, I don't
know things.
And I was talking to a friend ofmine who's also a science
communicator, Cara Santa Maria.

(31:25):
She hosts a talk nerdy.
She's incredibly smart and superconfident.
And we were having coffee onemorning and she said, well, the
great thing about what you do isit like you can kind of slip
into the role of the audienceand ask the questions that the
audience can't have.
And she's like, it's moredifficult for me as a
neuroscientist to fill that rolebecause people expect me to be

(31:49):
an authority.
And, um, I remember her tellingme that and it was a really
great relief for me because whatI held was some shame, which
was, I don't know everythingabout snails.
I don't know everything aboutlizards.
Um, I instead of having to hidethat, I could embrace that.
And again, it came down totruth.
Cause that was truth is I'm,instead of being a specialist

(32:12):
and an expert, I'm much more ofa generalist and I have enough
background in science to maybeknow what kind of questions to
ask.
But, um, but I can step into therole of the audience.
And I don't know if you've ever,if you ever saw, uh, do you ever
see California's gold with HuleHauser?
Do you remember that?

(32:32):
No, no, it was this shows, I'mlike PBS or something.
This guy named heal Hauser, thelate heal, the late, the great
fuel Hauser.
And he would just go aroundCalifornia with himself and a
camera man.
And he would ask things like,well, what are these rocks?
Wow.
Where's the water come from them.
Wow.
And everything was like, wow.

(32:54):
And, and so I think like, I kindof silently consider myself like
the heel Hauser of science wherelike no question's off limits.
And, uh, I think that being ableto come at it with that kind of
wonder and wow is, um, is veryhonest to me, you know?
And apparently that's resonated.
Go fake.
Yeah.
You know,

Dr. Shepp (33:13):
you do leave the episodes of your podcast with a
little bit of wow at some ofjust the most unappealing topics
on the surface of things.
You know, like again, I just, Igo back to the bleach episode.
It w I really didn't think I'dfind that very interesting, but,
um, but it was so interestingand so funny and you learn a
little bit each time or a loteach time depending.

(33:35):
So, um, it's, it's great.
It's a good, I think it's a goodservice to science that you do.
And I think as a woman, beingable to communicate it the way
you do is really helpful andimportant.
Uh, but it's also just a reallyentertaining listen.
So thank you.

Alie Ward (33:48):
And I realized I didn't totally answer that
question, but yeah, I think like, um, I, I had to consider
myself a human first.
Uh, you know, and I think as theresult, just coming at it with
that kind of like, uh, thatbrutal honesty of, I don't know
how this works, um, it'sprobably served me more than if
I pretended so.

(34:08):
And that way hopefully peoplenow know another science
communicator as a result, youknow?
Well, I'm hopefully,

Dr. Shepp (34:16):
yeah.
And I think it might interestmore people to get involved in
science and feel that they cancommunicate about topics that
you know, might seem kind ofgeekish or nerdish or whatever
it is.
Because now of course now it'smore more chic to be like in the
geek culture, but, but also Ithink it can seem like it like
an area people can venture intowithout being so intimidated by

(34:36):
it.
And I think that's a helpful,helpful.

Alie Ward (34:38):
And I think talking to scientists like you, I'm
talking to all these ologistswho will admit their failures
along the way, who admit thatthey started an experiment that
didn't work out because theystarted an entire field and
decided part way through medschool that they wanted to be a
field biologist.
I'm hearing that from scientistsI think and I hope is really

(34:58):
helpful for listeners that um,science isn't about having the
answers, it's about getting theanswers.
And um, I think that there's areally big misconception when it
comes to science that scientistsknow everything there is, it's
black and white and they don'trealize that experimentation
involves a lot of failure.
And that failure is iffundamental and a crucial part
of success.

(35:19):
No one who is successful hasn'tfailed and gotten up again and
learn from it.
And that is fundamental toscientific theory, you know, and
the scientific method.
And so I'm hoping that bytalking to people who study
bleach and the, and all thisstuff, hopefully not together
cause that's a terrible pairing.

(35:40):
But um, but those talking tothose people will maybe even if
they're not in the sciencefield, we'll give them a little
bit more of that confidence thatfailure is not a a culdesac
failure is just part of theroad.
You know, it might be a twisteror a turn, but it's not, it's
not a dead end at all.

Dr. Shepp (36:01):
That's a great point.
And I'm interested in hearing alittle bit about your own
experiment because at one pointin your life you started
volunteering at the naturalhistory history museum in part
as an experiment, I thinkbecause you had mentioned that
you were a little bit depressedin your life at that time and
wanted to connect with somethings that you were more
interested in.
So as a little bit of anexperiment, maybe you started

(36:23):
volunteering.

Alie Ward (36:24):
Yeah, yeah.
That was one of the best, uh,like potential failures that
I've ever parked on.
But I again, I thought this isgonna what if this is a waste of
time?
I shouldn't be doing this.
It's what I love, so I should, Ishould put it on the bottom of
the list.
But yeah, I had had a really,really difficult year.
This was 2013.
And, um, my boyfriend who I'm,we've gotten back together and

(36:47):
we've been together for yearsnow.
But, um, at the time we hadbroken up, he was going through
a really difficult periodmentally.
Um, he has ADHD and he had neverbeen diagnosed at that time and,
and he, he was having adifficult time.
So that was really Rocky for us.
And my dad had been diagnosedwith a blood cancer called

(37:08):
multiple myeloma, which he'sstill, he's still alive.
He's doing well.
But at the time, his prognosiswas only about two years.
Um, his brother had the samerare cancer and his brother had
just died.
So, um, of it.
So that was difficult.
Um, and, uh, throughout all ofthis I looked like I was having

(37:28):
the time of my life.
I was on a TV show, um, that wasa travel food show.
I, you know, had a spread andCosmo a fashion spread that, you
know, was all looked rosy andpolished and, um, you know, in
that fashion spread I waswearing heels that were not
mine, that were the mostuncomfortable things I have ever

(37:48):
put on my body.
So a lot of what looks greatisn't real and isn't true.
Um, but I, I was crying everyday.
Like I remember there were dayswhen I thought I, I only cried
once and it was a good day, butI would cry, break down crying
five, six times a day justbecause my dad was sick and, um,
and what my boyfriend was goingthrough was so difficult.

(38:11):
And so I was in a terrible stateand I, you know, I obviously was
started going to therapy, but Ihad on a whim just gone to visit
the museum.
And a friend of a friend who Ididn't even know, well, gave me
a little tour behind the scenesand I just said, God, I just
love being here so much.
It's just like Disneyland to me.
And she's like, you shouldvolunteer.

(38:31):
And I thought, I have a, youknow, I have this job working on
like, I've got so much going onmy life, how am I going to find
time to volunteer?
But it was three hours, one daya week in the morning that I
probably would be at home cryinganyway.
So I thought, well, I might aswell go to it.
Um, and the idea that it wouldmaybe maybe help people kind of

(38:52):
w was I think was the sugar, youknow, that made the medicine go
down.
I could justify it that way.
But really it was a helpingmyself.
I had kind of become one ofthose adults that didn't Marvel
as much at sciences I used to.
And so, um, it was a really,really big catalyst for me to
really connect with what broughtme a lot of joy.

(39:13):
And, uh, in a time when I wasfocused a lot on darkness, you
know, a lot on, on what couldhappen that was bad.
And, and it really helped mebecome more of myself.
Like I remember I posted apicture of my volunteer badge
the day that I, afterorientation I got my official
badge and I posted it on myInstagram thinking this is so

(39:36):
off brand.
Like they're, you know, um, arepeople going to be like, what is
this about?
You know, I come to you forpictures of donuts.
Um, and it was really sweetthat, that, uh, people were
supportive and it was like, Oh,I didn't know you liked science.
And I thought, wow, I, this hugepart of me I've been hiding.
Like my whole house is like abug collection and science books

(39:58):
and stuff.
That's a huge part of who I was.
People were like, Oh, I don'teven know this.
Oh, you like, like bugs.
And I was like, what am I doing?
Who am I being, you know, so itwas a really big catalyst for
that.

Dr. Shepp (40:09):
Do you, you just talked about connecting to
things that you honestly enjoyand finding that intrinsic
pleasure but also expressingwhat that is, not just to
yourself but others around you.
And you do that even on socialmedia, which I think I've found
is a trap for a lot of peoplethese days, especially those in
the public eye.

(40:29):
Because it can be as thoughthere's this unwritten rule that
you can only say certain thingsor talk about certain things or
only so much show so much ofyourself because you risk
backlash or somehow I'm beingpigeonholed into, you know, just
as a certain kind of personalityor somehow it affecting your

(40:50):
bottom line or your ratings.
And it seems to me any way thatyou don't shy away from
expressing yourself honestlythere.

Alie Ward (40:57):
Yeah, it's scary.
It's definitely scary because,you know, the F as an LA times
employee, when I was ajournalist, I was not allowed to
express anything politically.
Um, I couldn't even have abumper sticker on my car if I
wanted one.
Um, and so you can't, yeah, youcan't put up a, you know,

(41:17):
whoever for city council in yourfront yard, when you're an LA
times employee, you signed acontract.
And so, um, as someone who is nolonger a newspaper employee, I
realized I had a little bit morefreedom to use my voice.
And you know, I think anyonethat goes into performance and
goes into writing, um, whatthey're really seeking is

(41:38):
invoice.
And that's, you know, going backto being a woman and in
performance like that to me waswhat was the drivers.
I wanted to have a voice and youknow, I acted for a little bit
and I, I realized I was playingvictims a lot.
Um, and I was just saying otherpeople's words and I thought I,
this isn't the same as having avoice.
And so I think, um, having avoice is such a privilege and I

(42:06):
think that using itauthentically and using it to
maybe shine a light on thingsthat we don't want to talk about
is, is kind of a way to honorthat privilege.
Um, because if you have theprivilege of having a platform
and you have a megaphone and youdon't say anything risky into it
, um, that megaphone was onlyserving you, you know?

(42:28):
So I think that it does.
Social media does feel like thatamplification and, um, but it is
scary.
I mean, you know, I've, I, Itweeted something about body
shaming, um, that ended upgetting picked up by, um,
certain newspapers that maybedidn't align a lot with my

(42:49):
ideals.
And I got a ton of people sayterrible things about me.
Um, about how, uh, essentiallytried to tear me down for
defending people against bodyshaming.
It was like, it was very, like,it was kind of a, like a, a
weird tornado of, uh, um, peoplenot wanting someone to defend

(43:10):
other people.
But, um, you know, that's scary.
And, but at the end of the day,I think that the people who dig
what you do and who want to hearwhat you have to say only end up
kind of respecting you more.
So what you might, um, maybegain in some shade from people

(43:33):
who aren't into it.
You, you end up at the end ofthe day kind of, um, making your
bond with the people who get youa little bit stronger, you know,
but it is scary.
It is scary to say like, Hey, tocall things out and say, I don't
think this is cool.
You guys like, we all see this.
Um, that can be, that candefinitely be scary and it's a

(43:54):
lot easier just to be like, Ihad a great sandwich.
You know, it's a lot easier tolike when I shoot about like
hair, which, you know, wantingto be buried with a hair tie on
my wrist or when I tweet aboutit, you know, other things, it's
definitely a lot easier.
But, um, but you know, in thisday and age, I feel like if
you're a person who makes aliving being in the media, uh,

(44:15):
you have a little bit of aresponsibility, um, to try to
stay true to your own ideals.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
[inaudible]

Dr. Shepp (44:30):
that's an way of framing it because I think a lot
of people in the public eyewould feel the opposite about
it.
That instead of feeling a senseof responsibility to stay true
to themselves and their ideals,they feel as though they're kind
of in a, in a public cage, youknow, of course the, the
fishbowl idea, but, but morelike a fishbowl where people are

(44:51):
standing outside and justwagging their finger and
judging.
Um, because I think that's oftenwhat social media can feel like.
Yeah.
And I like the fact that youtake a different stance on, on
social media and how youapproach it and that you do see
it as an opportunity, um, and asan opportunity to help other
people kind of climb out oftheir shell rather than stay

(45:12):
more caged in it.
I mean, I do bet that you neverthought the words

Speaker 5 (45:19):
Oh no.
It was such a weird day I had.
Yeah,

Alie Ward (45:22):
I just thought these, um, yeah, I saw that.
I saw these plates in the windowof Macy's and I just walked by
and I thought, and I turnedaround and I thought, that
sucks.
That just, that just found meout.
That's antithetical ascientifically to eating, uh,
eating healthy.
And it's just, it's a, it's alow blow, you know, and, um,

(45:43):
it's terrible for women and theywould never have something like
this for men.
So I just took a picture of itand, um, yeah, I didn't expect
it to get to bake.
Literally like internationalnews.
I was on set for one of them forthe CBS innovation I was
shooting and was getting emailsfrom, you know, um, all these
different newspapers and some ofthem, you know, um, some of the

(46:07):
coverage of it was like, Ugh,this social justice warrior is
trying to take away our right tomake women feel bad.
And it was like, what you wouldspin, you know.
But, um, but I heard from somany, you know, on the other
hand though, I, I heard from away larger number of people
saying, Hey, thanks.
You know, that, that sucks.

(46:27):
And that's one of those thingsthat, you know, you might just
walk, who knows how manythousands of people walk by
stuff that makes them feel badall the time.
But, um, if you have a platformwhere you can, you can say, Hey,
are we okay with this?
Cause I'm not, you know, and itcomes down to relate ability to,
it's like, um, by me saying, Idon't like this.

(46:50):
It gives other people theopportunity to say thank you.
Yeah, I don't.
Or Hey, I like what this personis doing and maybe they're
underappreciated and otherpeople can say yes, I like that
too.
You know, you know, like they,they say, well behaved women
rarely make history.
I think you can say that, youknow, when it comes to you,
should I tweet this thing?
Sometimes you could say, well,yeah, sitting properly with our

(47:10):
hands folded in our labs doesn'tmove the needle at all.
So sometimes if you have a voiceand you have the privilege of
having a platform, um, I do feellike you're, you have some
responsibility to use it.
And you've

Dr. Shepp (47:23):
pointed out the hazards of social media too,
because you talk about how ourworth is being quantified in
ways that have, has neverexisted before.
When we grew up, you'vementioned that we didn't take
selfies, we took pictures ofthings that we saw and now we
not only take pictures ofourselves, but we post them and
then they're evaluated andjudged and, and the number of
likes or the number of followersthat we get is somehow being

(47:45):
equated with our worth, which isa really dangerous path to be
on, especially for those whodon't have the opportunity to
feel like they are in the publiceye or will ever be in the
public eye.
And they may never gain a largefollowing on social media and
they may never get a largenumber of likes.
And to somehow have that be ameasure of a person's self worth

(48:08):
or their value in the world isreally very dangerous.
Um, and you point out the risksand hazards of, of social media
as well.

Alie Ward (48:16):
Yeah, it's, it's weird.
It's, it's weird to be able tosay, I am this liked today.
Um, and it feels like, um,having a scale in your bathroom
and if you get on it everysingle day and you say, Oh, I've
gained a half a pound, Oh no,I'm, I might as well just eat
everything.
Or, um, uh, that kind of micromeasurement of something that

(48:40):
actually doesn't matter, youknow, um, I had a much better
relationship with my body theday that I literally took a
hammer to my scale and threw itin the garbage like 15 years
ago.
Um, for you, I mean, it wasreally liberating.
I, I thought that I was beingresponsible by like she, you
know, checking in and that,that's not, it doesn't equate to

(49:00):
our strength, you know?
Um, the more muscle we get, themore we weigh, the stronger we
are.
And I feel like the same is kindof with social media.
We judge ourselves based on thisnumber that doesn't actually
reflect our strength and ourstrikes are in the bonds that we
have with our people in reallife.
They're how we show up forfriends.

(49:21):
They are, how we let friendsshow up for us when we need
them.
Um, and so I feel like socialmedia is kind of like that.
That's that uh, scale trap whereit's not reflective of our
actual strength.
Um, I can say from someone whodidn't have a lot of followers
to having an audience base, Ican say from the other side that

(49:46):
that the number of likes you geton something feels a fraction is
good as when you sit down with afriend and hang out.
Like the feeling of it is, isuh, just, you know, you can't
compare that, um, that evenhaving, having a little bit of a
following doesn't feel as goodas having a friend who knows you

(50:08):
and cares about you.
You know?

Dr. Shepp (50:10):
Absolutely.
And that's a great perspective.
You've mentioned a number ofthings today that I think are
really helpful by way ofperspective because you do want
to fill your life with thingsthat are true, that make you
feel good, that give you thesense of, of freedom to be
yourself.
You want to have things inperspective where are enriching
your life through relationshipand through an endeavor in

(50:32):
pursuit that makes you happy.
Um, rather than just feelinglike you need to, you know, just
try to have a product.
You want to make sure that youbalance that.
You've mentioned a number ofthings that I think are really
helpful in terms of perspectivethat also probably have impacted
the way you approach yourperformance because life
happens.
Right.
And you mentioned your dad'sdiagnosis and I know you've also

(50:52):
been candid about some healthstruggles that you went through
and when life happens, itimpacts your mindset and your
approach to your own work.

Alie Ward (51:02):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and I, I've talkedabout this a little bit on the
pop Pat podcast, but I wentthrough ovarian failure and at,
uh, 15 years essentially likegoing through menopause 15 years
too early, which was likesurprise, um, your organs are
dying.
And I was like, Oh no, I didn'texpect to spend so much time and

(51:22):
energy trying to fix this.
So yeah, there are things that,yeah.
Disrupt you so much.
And, um, you just have to findthe bright spots that keep you
surviving.
You know, you know, for someonewho has anxiety, I think a lot
of people who have anxiety arelike, well, if I just keep
worrying about it, then when ithappens it won't hurt at all.

(51:43):
And it's like, no, that's nothow that works.
You know, with my dad'sdiagnosis, I remember just a, at
first it had felt like I wasdealing with all the emotions of
his passing and he's so he'sstill alive and he's kicking ass
six years later and, uh, it'sgreat.
You know, it was just like,thank God for modern medicine.
Um, and like to every oncologistand every hematologist out there

(52:07):
working, it's like, this is whyI get so excited talking to
different ologists cause theyare really changing the world,
you know, in ways that, um,might seem invisible to us.
But they're the person next tous in line at the grocery store
who was working on, um, youknow, a gene therapy that might,
you know, save your sister.
So these are, these are peoplewho are so exciting and such
heroes.
And so, um, you know, but thatkind of stuff happens in it for

(52:30):
someone that anxiety, we alwaysthink like, I'll just get it out
of my system now.
And that's just not how itworks.
And one thing, I learned a lotwith that really terrible years
that you literally have to takethings one day at a time.
And it sounds like such like a,a Pinterest thing that you would
like write on the wall andpretty script, but you really do
like, you could only take daysas they come.

(52:50):
Like if you know someone in yourfamily's having a good day,
that's a good day.
And if they're having a bad daytomorrow, you'll deal with it
tomorrow.
But deal with what you've got onyour plate, you know, day by day
and just take it, take it a dayat a time.
Um, when it comes to anxiety, atleast you know that you, uh, you
have to deal in the presentmoment with anxiety.
And if there's a problem that'scausing things to be bad, deal

(53:13):
with the problem.
But you know, for me whostruggles with worry, it's like
that's one thing I've had tolearn.

Dr. Shepp (53:21):
It's a great lesson to learn and it's great advice
and I do think it improves yourquality of life.
Um, if you're able to do that towhatever degree and, and it
helps performance of course tostay in the moment and just to
stay in whatever day you're in.
But it also helps just withquality of life because there's
only so much you can control inthe future is not one of those.

Alie Ward (53:40):
Yeah.
And you know, it's funny when Iwas, when I would go back and
listen to our episode, like Iwas where I was working on this
show that it hasn't come outyet, but it's a Netflix show and
I was shooting it for a year andthis was probably the biggest
job that I've ever reallyundertaken.
It was the hardest shoot I'veever done.
It was so fun.

(54:01):
It was bananas.
The show will be absolutelybananas.
But I was really, I had impostersyndrome going into it being
like, am I going to be okay?
Am I going to be okay at this?
Um, and I also had incredibleperformance anxiety because we
would get these really longscripts that we would have to
deliver verbatim right beforegoing on and we would get one

(54:22):
take and it would be in front ofa crowd of a hundred people.
I mean, it was like everytrigger you could have in terms
of a performer.
And it had to be funny and ithad to be scientifically
accurate.
It was like, so I just rememberbeing like, this is so
physically and mentally hard andI, and I would, I was really

(54:43):
worried about, I was having aton of anxiety.
I was telling my boyfriend,Jared, I was like, I really want
to do a good job.
I've never wanted to do a goodjob as much and I, and I don't
know how to do it.
And I remember, um, being like,I need to like talk to the
therapist about this.
And I was like, Oh, I alreadydid.
I was like, I'm going to go backand listen to our episode.
And I've listened to it severaltimes since, but, um, you were
telling me there, you weretelling listeners that

(55:04):
preparation can make you moreconfident in the moment.
And a lot of times you want tosay, I'm just gonna wing it.
This is too scary.
I'm going to wing it and see howit goes.
And you were saying, you know,just be prepared and practice,
practice, so the in the momentyou can just let yourself kind
of be.
And so, um, and I was using thatadvice and I was, I was
preparing as best I could and,um, and it ended up making me

(55:27):
much more confident.
I wanted to the next shoot daysinstead of maybe if I got the
script the night before beinglike, I'll deal with it when I
get to set.
I was like, no, I'm going tostay up for an extra hour.
I'm going to work on this.
And then it was, it was helpingme so much.
So, yeah, there was a lot thatum, there was a lot from that
episode that really got methrough the shoot, so thank you.

(55:47):
Yeah, it was a challenge butit's, yeah, it's tough when you,
when you perform cause you wantto just sometimes say I you
think, well I don't want toworry about it.
So in order to not worry aboutit, I'm just not going to think
about it.
And then you show up lessprepared than you want to be.
Right.
You know, and that is a, that'sa trap that, um, that you taught
me to really get out of.
And I was realizing that when Ithought that I was, I thought

(56:10):
that I was preparing by worryingand I wasn't, I was just doing
the worrying part.
So when if I just said, okayworry, go away now it's straight
preparation.
Then I was like, there we go.
Cause I I missed, took a handfor preparing worry and problem
solving are two very differentthings.
Yes.

(56:30):
Yeah.
That was huge for me.
It was like thank you.
Yeah.

Dr. Shepp (56:35):
Well, I'm going to move on just for the sake of
time and ask you some questionsthat I ask everyone.
Um, although I, I did, I didthink of one other question that
I wanted to ask you that I don'task everyone.
I'll only ask you, so I'll startwith that one.
And I don't know if you've beenasked it before, but, um, who
would be your dream ologist tointerview whether living or
dead?

Alie Ward (56:56):
Oh, that is a good question.
Um, I will say I'm about tointerview him in a week.
Great.
I know.
Can you believe it?
I think, well, Jane Goodall.
Okay.
I will say I'll diaper from himfor a second.
Jane Goodall would be amazing.
A living, I would love tointerview her.
I already did a primatologyepisode, so if I can think of a

(57:16):
different ology, I would love tointerview her.
But there is someone who's beenon my list, um, for two years.
His name is Merlin Tuttle, andhe is a bat expert.
He's a chiropractor ologist andhe works in Austin.
And for some reason that thefact that his name is Merlin
cuddle, I find like so endearingand um, he's been working with

(57:37):
bats for like 35 years.
The dude loves baths.
He has a conservation for them.
Like I'm, I've been so excitedto interview him for so long and
um, and so yeah, next weekendgoing to Austin for work and I,
and I booked an extra couple ofdays there so that I could go
and meet up with him.
So I'm very excited that's goingto come out and[inaudible] for

(57:59):
Halloween.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, but Jane Goodallwould also be amazing and if I
could go back and do cosmologyagain, which is, you know, the
study of the universe, I wouldinterview T Cobra.
Hey, who, um, was a, I believehe was a Danish astronomer who
had a brass or maybe it was aSterling silver, they're not

(58:22):
sure knows because his nose gotcut off in a duel, I think with
another astronomer.
He also lived in a castle and hehad a moose that would drink
beer and get drunk and stumblearound the castle.
And Tigo.
Bri has a, um, he has a craterin the moon named after him, the
big crater at the bottom thatlooks like a butt.
And um, he died of a rupturedbladder because he was at a

(58:46):
dinner party that was veryformal cause he was like
nobility and his bladder rupturebecause he was too polite to get
out.
My goodness.
So this guy, wow, I would needsome extra SD cards cause I
would just want to talk to thisguy for hours.
So yeah.
Tico Bri might be the oneunliving and I'd want to, and

(59:06):
I'd want to warn him ahead oftime.
It'd be like, dude, it's notabsolutely,

Dr. Shepp (59:14):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
It would be great to go back andhear from people like Marie
Curie or, or Leonardo DaVinciand these ologists

Alie Ward (59:22):
who changed the world and especially in their culture
and their timeframe and howradically, how radically they
transform things.
And I bet they got so much Shane.
I mean we hear all the goodparts, but they probably had so
many people throwing rockpeaches up and telling them they
were witches and stuff.
I mean, they probably were like,Oh, so what do people hate me?

(59:44):
They didn't realize that theimprint that they would leave, I
mean, um, so they dealt with,they dealt with their fair
amount of, of, um, spectacularfailures and uh, and, and hatred
from people.
So yeah, getting to hear thehuman story about it I think
would be really interesting.
Someday you'll probablyinterview, uh, uh, a time travel

(01:00:04):
ologist and then you can figureout, Oh my God, a Krono tech
technologist.
Right.
I just made that up, but I feellike they were more[inaudible]
technology.
I should do that for April foolsand just have a Kroto technology
episode and be like, Oh, I'minterviewing at time traffic.

(01:00:30):
I will, I'll schedule that on myH my next April, April, 2028.
Well, I know you're curiousabout many things, which is what
brought you to this point inlife.
Um, but what in life are youstill curious about?
Oh, uh, one thing I think I'mreally curious about, and this
seems so basic, but I'm verycurious about, uh, nutrition and

(01:00:53):
mental health.
I'm really curious about thetypes of, uh, mental health
concerns that a lot of peoplestruggle with and how much of it
might be environmental.
And so the gut biome episode wasreally interesting for me.
You know, hearing that like 90%of serotonin is made in the gut.
I'm really interested in the waythat we look at our mental

(01:01:15):
health now as opposed to how wewill look at it in the future
and we'll think, God, can youbelieve that this is what they
did?
Or can you believe that therewasn't a treatment for this?
Or can you believe that thismany people struggled with this?
Um, and I think that is going tobe really, really interesting.
I'm really curious cause thoseare things that affect us on a,
on such a base level and theyaffect our relationships and it

(01:01:37):
affects our work and it affectshow we see the world.
It affects politics.
Um, it affects how we treat eachother.
And I think that mental healthis so fundamental to so many, uh
, industries and so many humanissues that it'll be really
interesting when we understandthe brain better and to learn

(01:01:58):
about what we're putting intoour body and how it's affected
our, our neurons.
I'm sure it be very interesting.
Yeah.
Probably completely frightening,but also very interesting.
I know that that biome biomeepisode shook me.
I was like[inaudible] Oh man.
Like you just think like, youthink that your brain is just
this floating bubble at the topand you don't realize how

(01:02:20):
connected things are.
So I think it'll be interestingwhen we look at, Oh my gosh, I
mean I would never feed my dog adiet Pepsi and uh, in a Danish
for breakfast.
But I've sure I've eaten thatbefore and been like, what I'm
supposed to function.
So I think also as someone whostruggles with hypoglycemia and
knowing how that affects myenergy levels, I think I'm
always like, I'm just so curiousas to how the fuel we use for

(01:02:44):
our bodies affects theperformance of the machine and
how much we're going to knowabout that.
Right.

Dr. Shepp (01:02:49):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, and it can be distractingwhen your, your blood sugar is
much slower than it should be,of course, but onto it onto a
different distraction.
What is more distracting to youas a performer?
Is it praise or criticism?

Alie Ward (01:03:04):
Oh my God.
Oh, great question.
Um, you know what's funny is Ibelieve criticism that I don't
believe praise.
I mean, I think sometimes I takepraise with a giant grain of
salt, but sometimes I'll takecriticism, especially with all
the GS cause the people whocriticize all the cheese usually

(01:03:25):
, um, do it in like a caring waywith praise.
You don't have to address itboth criticisms sometimes.
Um, you either want to apologizeif you've, if you've missed
spoken or if you've, uh, ifyou've excluded someone.
So with criticism, a lot oftimes there's something to um,
ameliorate there.
There's something, there's mightbe a fixed or it's just me

(01:03:49):
criticism and you want to say,Hey, step up man.
So there's usually like a followup that sometimes I feel like
criticism necessitates it'sdistracting.

Dr. Shepp (01:03:58):
And I think as a, as a performer it can be a
combination of both.
You don't want to expectyourself to hit the same Mark
every time that, that peoplehave given you praise for.
You don't want to feel like youhave to bring it to the same
degree every time.
If you focus on the praiseyou've received.
Um, so I imagine it's a littlebit of both.

Alie Ward (01:04:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You want to, you keep you, I,especially if you love what you
do, you want to keep gettingbetter.
So sometimes you can, you canfocus on a criticism cause it
might be a clue or a very, noteven a clue, a very huge
billboard telling you what youneed to do better.
So I think in the spirit ofwanting to serve the project,
sometimes I give that moreweight.

Dr. Shepp (01:04:38):
As a performer.
You obviously prepare for everyepisode of your podcast and for
every broadcast yet at theunexpected can happen.
What is something unexpectedthat happened to you, whether as
a correspondent or podcast host?

Alie Ward (01:04:53):
Oh man, me and my equipment do not always show up
in the same place.
That is like, that is somethingthat is so basic.
You need two people and you needsome recording equipment.
And there have been a handful oftimes where I have left a hotel
and left my recordings.
But uh, I hope shown up withoutaid and an SD card or there's

(01:05:18):
been some issue with, withequipment.
And so that is always the mostembarrassing because when you're
like fumbling with a mic, youalways feel like not
professional at all.
And so I think sometimes inprinting out my questions and
doing research, I think I'm soprepared.
And then you forget like thebasic tools you need.
Some times you'll leave thehouse without batteries and

(01:05:40):
you'd be like, um, I rememberduring our interview I forgot to
put my phone on airplane modeand I was mortified.
I was trying to shove it underthe counter instead of, and at
the time now I'd probably justbe like, Oh man, my phone went
off.
But at the time I was like, justshove it under the couch.
Just shove it on.

(01:06:01):
I'm sure you noticed.
I don't remember that at all.
It was like, I was like, Oh, shecould hear it vibrating.
But yeah, but I'm, so equipmentfoibles are the worst because,
um, those are so out.
You can't proceed.
You can't fake your way throughfor getting a mic cable, you
know?
Right.
Well, I will share that in myfirst in-person interview for

(01:06:24):
this podcast.
Um, the batteries did go dead inmy[inaudible] so, so I had to go
back for a second, a secondvisit, although the second visit
turned out really well.
But, um, but yeah, that's,that's something that you just
don't want to have happen.
Oh my God, I'm so sorry thathappened to you.

(01:06:44):
It's the stuff nightmares aremade of and it's just, but you
had a great second talk andthat's what, that's what
matters.
Well, that's one instance whereI absolutely had to take my own
advice because there was nothingI could do.
The second half of the podcastwas just gone.
It was, you know, I couldn'tjust make it appear out of thin
air.
It was not recorded, so Icouldn't do anything about it.

(01:07:06):
I had to just control thecontrollables and make a phone
call and say, I'm really sorry,but I, I have to come back.
That's great.
I'm going to write control.
The controllables, control thecontrollables is going on my
chalkboard.
I just, you know, so, um, sothen what, what is one way that
you move on from failure?
How do you move on from failurealley?

(01:07:28):
Oh man, it can be really hard inthe moment.
And I have to, I, this is what Ido.
You ready for this?
This is so stupid.
I picture myself on my deathbedand I'm like under a nice quilt
or a calf can.
My family is surrounding me andI think, well, whatever, I'm

(01:07:49):
been out of shape about matteron my deathbed.
Like, well, I'd be on mydeathbed and I'll be like, so
and so didn't retweet me.
No, it's not gonna matter orwill I be like, Oh, I, you know,
I dropped a vase on my deathbed.
If it's a, if it's a main vaseand it's worth$1 million in
epilogue to someone else on mydeath bed, I might be like, that

(01:08:10):
was my biggest regret.
So yes.
Okay, fine.
I could freak, forget about it,but if on my deathbed I'll be
like, what?

Dr. Shepp (01:08:16):
Huh?
I don't even remember then Ishould just try to move on as
quickly as possible.
Time.
Time makes everything better.
Usually a week out from whatevercatastrophe you're having,
you're like, it's fine.
So I have to, I literally justvisualize myself typing and
shrugging it off, so I'm like,okay, that's fine.

(01:08:37):
Well, it's, it's funny cause I,I laugh and I make light of
that, but um, there's that oldproverb, something about teach
us to number our days because itdoes make a difference when you
think about what really matters.
What I learned now from anexperience that I went through
with some, um, with a healthcrisis a few years back when I
was in the hospital, I rememberthinking about what was

(01:09:01):
important to me and, and Idefinitely gained some
perspective through thatexperience that transformed my
life because so much of what Iconsidered to be important prior
to that absolutely doesn'tmatter to me anymore at all.
And other things that areimportant to me, I really do
cherish.
It's definitely informed my owndecision making, but it still

(01:09:24):
doesn't solve every problembecause sometimes you still have
to navigate when something isimportant to you that might not
be important to someone else ora decision that you might make
because you feel it feel reallystrongly about it and you feel
like it's important for you tolive it out.
And at the same time, it mightgo against what other people are
wanting to do.
So it doesn't solve everyproblem, but it definitely
transformed my own experiencefor sure.

(01:09:45):
Were you able to take some timeoff and just feel like after
that, just like, give me aminute.
I'm gonna switch some shit upright now.
Well I had to, I actuallycouldn't walk and I couldn't go
back to work for quite a whilebecause I just didn't have the
strength or the energy to, andpart of my own transformation
came from that period ofrecovery too.
Cause there's nothing to do butreflect and watch really bad

(01:10:08):
reruns of Christmas specials andholidays, holiday specials.
Um, lot of, lot of hallmarkholiday movies that I didn't
expect to watch.
Um, but, but yeah, I had a lotof time and so it helped me
reprioritize things and, anddefinitely transformed the way I
thought about things.

(01:10:29):
Um, and even just the way Ithink about rest and taking care
of myself.
Cause obviously as apsychologist I've always thought
it was important to practiceself care and, um, but the kind
of self care practice now isdifferent than before because,
um, when I faced a certain, um,situation that I didn't expect
like that it diff, it definitelyimpacted just the little things

(01:10:52):
about every day.
Do I really want to be upsetabout this?
Do I want to, um, feel as, asfrustrated as I feel right now.
Is this how I want to spend mytime?
So little things like that thatI didn't think about before I, I
definitely give more attentionto, Oh, what a great lesson to
have.
I mean the horrible experienceand I'm glad that you pulled

(01:11:14):
through because angles withoutyou would suck.
You guys used your wisdom, butwhat, uh, what are reset button
that you were kind of forced topush, you know?
Yeah.
And it's interesting how resetbuttons can, can really change
your trajectory, my trajectoryanyway, feeling like, you know,
we only have so much timewhether it's less time than we

(01:11:36):
think or more time than we thinkor it turns out to be about how
long we thought it would be.
We still only have so much time.
That's interesting too.
To think that everyone aroundyou probably has had a situation
similar to a reset button ofsorts.
You know, like that moment thatyou are in a crisis situation
and you are forced to kind ofpress it, um, a lot of times it

(01:12:00):
can, you can come out the otherside more you than when you
started.
Yes, very much so.
Yeah.
And it's still, there's stillthat challenge to be
authentically myself every daythe same way that everyone faces
that challenge.
And I try to navigate that tothe best of my ability and
hopefully I do a good job or atleast a good enough job on it

(01:12:22):
cause no one's perfect.
So hopefully I do a good enoughjob on it.
Um, it's still a moment bymoment choice to be authentic to
yourself and to the things thatyou want to, um, to, to do and
the ways you want to impactyour, your environment in your
world.
For sure.
And it's,

Alie Ward (01:12:40):
it can definitely be scary.
They can come with a risk, but alot of times that feeling of
authenticity is such a relief.
You know, it's just like, Ohwell you don't feel like, uh,
there's anything lurking, youknow?
And it can feel like such a, itcan in a way, it feels like

Dr. Shepp (01:12:59):
the Marie Kondo method where you're just like,
okay, just kind of purge theclutter and you're like, here we
go.
This is what I am.
And there's kind of a relief inthe simplicity of, of just being
your authentic self, you know?
Absolutely.
It is more simplified.
It doesn't make everything easy,but it is, it is more
simplified.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm definitely much happier

Alie Ward (01:13:20):
being, uh, being the person I am then the person I
was six years ago, you know.
Um, I think that that's onething that I, I've really loved
about doing the podcast and inlistening to interviews and
getting to meet all these peopleis, is learning that everyone's
story is, uh, has these ups anddowns and has these moments, uh,

(01:13:44):
of refocus and of discovery andof wonder.
Um, you know, it's really an alesson that what you're going
through is, um, is just part ofbeing a human and that is to be
[inaudible] appreciate

Dr. Shepp (01:13:58):
it, you know?
Absolutely.
So, uh, on my little storiesnote, uh, w have you ever had
what you would say was atransformative moment in your
work or in your life?
Um, and you've, you've mentionedsome things that have impacted
you, but,

Alie Ward (01:14:12):
but do you feel like there was a transformative
moment and, and if so, what wasit?
Oh, I think, I think startingthe museum volunteering was
hugely transformative.
Um, but when it comes to ologieshad a moment September 4th,
2017, I don't remember the exactmoment.

(01:14:33):
Um, I, I had been working onologies for about nine months.
I had done maybe six or seveninterviews.
I had been noodling withediting.
I had hired a sound engineer.
I had done the artwork and Ijust didn't, I, I didn't feel
right to put out yet.
I didn't feel like it was goodenough.

(01:14:54):
And I got a message on socialmedia, which can be helpful.
And, um, and so someone said,Hey, I listened to someone
else's podcast.
They were talking about doing apodcast about ologies.
Did you know that?
And I was like, Oh, no.
Like this is a really bigscience communicator.
A British guy with a bigfollowing and I had been working
on ologies for like almost ayear.

(01:15:15):
I had the social media handlesalready.
I'd been like teasing it topeople on Twitter being, you
know, I've been telling people Iwas recording it and I just had
this moment where all of thiswork, this dream that I've
always wanted to make a projectabout ologies just got taken
from under me just because of myown, my own fear of putting it
out is what you, of course it's,it's a, I thought it was a great

(01:15:38):
idea.
Of course someone else wouldcome up with the idea, they
would just beat me to the punchcause I was too fiddled with
anxiety to put it out.
And so, um, and so I reached outto the person and said, Hey, I
heard that you are thinkingabout this.
Just so, you know, I've beenworking on this for a while and,
and I'm, I'm crossing my fingershoping that, um, that, you know,

(01:15:59):
this isn't an imposition, butI'm, I'm hoping you decide to, I
hope he get bored of it and youdon't do it.
And he said, don't worry, I'm,I'm, I've run my mouth a lot and
I'm not actually gonna do it,but good luck to you.
And, um, but I put it, I put myvery first teaser episode up
that night cause I just had to,and I, I've probably would have,
would I, who knows, I maybenever would have put it up.

(01:16:21):
Um, and I maybe would haveabandoned the project thinking
it's not going to be goodenough.
But I, I had worked so hard onit, but just hadn't had the
courage to put it out.
And so it's a, but I rememberthe moment I got that, that a
message from someone letting meknow, I felt like I'd been
kicked in the stomach.
I was just like, Oh, this is allmy fault for just being, to

(01:16:42):
being a perfectionist with it.
And so that was a really biglesson for me, that
perfectionism is not as valuableas courage in that in that
sense.
Like, you know, doing a good job, um, can comes with experience.
And so, you know, it's a podcastis as I've done more and more,
I've maybe gotten better atcertain things, but, um, you
can't be, you can never perfectanything and you can only get

(01:17:05):
better by doing instead ofworrying.
And so I think I just, thescenes worried for a year almost
thinking I could make theperfect episode and I couldn't.
And so that was a moment,September 4th.
Um, so that, that was a hugelytransformative moment where I
understood that you justsometimes have to let things be
imperfect in order for them toflourish.

(01:17:27):
You know, perfectionism is notas important as courage.
That's what you just said.
And I think that's, that's greatadvice.
Yeah, it's really, uh, I, youknow, and I think people who
have anxiety or people who areperfectionist, they really think
that they can fix it all alonein their head and then spit out
something perfect.
And, uh, one thing I've learnedfrom doing this and from doing

(01:17:47):
innovation nation and from, uh,did I mention mention is that,
uh, tinkering is essential andyou will never get better at
something unless you do it.
And so, um, I used to think thatI can worry about things and fix
it that way.
And yeah.
Nope, very different.
Like you said, worry is reallydifferent from problem solving.
So, um, you know, and as I'vegone on to make, you know, to

(01:18:10):
make ologies make the project,I've, yeah, I've fixed things as
I've gone, but those are thingsI never could have fixed alone
in my head, you know, beingscared and put it out.
So that was, that was huge.
September four, I remember.
Well, happy anniversary.
That's, yeah, absolutely.
Well, you get a lot of commentsand feedback about your work.
Um, what is one comment thatstill stands out to you because

(01:18:32):
of its impact, whether that wasgood or bad or for whatever
reason?
Oh, you know, I think one thingthat always means a lot to me is
when people say that the podcasthas inspired them to do what
they really love.
That's, that's something that'sreally, really means a lot to
me.
Um, the other comment I get isthat I didn't think I'd be

(01:18:54):
interested in this episode and Iloved it.
That always means a lot to mejust cause I'm like, yes, I made
something weird, interesting.
But the people who say, um, youknow, I, I always wanted to be
in this other line of work or Ialways wanted to go volunteer
somewhere.
I think, um, that really makesme feel great cause it feels
like tangible change maybe that,um, that can happen just based

(01:19:20):
on conversations, you know, justhaving a conversation with
someone that I maybe neverwould've gotten to meet.
But I, I started looking up, youknow, cactus experts and found
them and traveled to them andtalk to them and their amazing
life story and their work, uh,has been able to change how
someone else lives.
And so being, um, a little bitof like an ambassador to all of

(01:19:42):
these amazing, you know, expertsstories has really meant a lot
to me cause I don't think it'sme that does it, but I think
it's just hearing the passion ofthe guests and, um, maybe maybe
a little bit hearing a littlebit of the passion that I have
for the project.
But yeah, thinking of peoplegetting to know themselves
better by asking themselves whatthey're really into, that I feel

(01:20:04):
like it means a ton to me forsure.
Um, and yeah, and when peoplesay that I feel like they're
weird uncle, I'm always like,thanks, that means a lot too.
Everyone's got that weird uncleis like, Hey, check out.
I find out wasps nest, you wantto go poke it like that one.
Although people try to avoidtheir weird uncle and I would

(01:20:27):
[inaudible] about you.
So maybe a weird cousin orsomething that's like, Hey,
check it out.
Let's go climb this tree you toout.
So yeah, I always, I feel likethat's, I love having that role.
I, and I, I call myself my, um,the listener's dad because I
never quite felt motherly towardthem, but it feels like, um,

(01:20:47):
cause motherly, I felt like ahad these connotations of, um, I
don't know, maybe of a controlor something, but I, I always
felt like this weird, like thisweird dad that's like, Hey,
let's go, you know, let's gomuck about and catch fish and,
you know, don't tell your mom weate churros for breakfast or

(01:21:07):
something.
So I know how I feel.
Or, or McNuggets CDs or McNuggetteenies for breakfast.
Oh God.
Hopefully never again, not, notadvisable for any person living
or dead.
Uh, I'm glad I got to work thatin somehow.

Dr. Shepp (01:21:26):
Um, well the last question in about 30 seconds or
less, what have you learnedabout yourself from your
particular work as acorrespondent and a science
communicator and podcast host?

Alie Ward (01:21:40):
I think I've learned that I'm enough so that in less
than 30 seconds, I'd have to saythat I'm enough.
I always thought I had to bedifferent.
I thought I had to be betterbefore I could be accepted or
good at what I do.
And I understood that I amenough and that being weird is

(01:22:01):
fine and that, yeah, so I couldjust show up, you know.
And the mantra for me is alwaysshow up like you belong and have
fun and um, and that's kind ofwhat I've learned to trust is
just that I don't have tochange.
Um, I just have to be me, whichis helpful.
Thank you.

Dr. Shepp (01:22:20):
Thanks Allie.
Thanks for showing up here withme today and thanks for, for
making this so fun for me.

Alie Ward (01:22:27):
Oh, yay.

Dr. Shepp (01:22:28):
I'm really glad you could take the time to do this.
So this is a great conversationand I really enjoyed it and um,
I'm really happy for you andthat you found what it is that
you love to do and I wish youcontinued success.

Alie Ward (01:22:39):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for being on.
It's one of my favoriteepisodes.
Are you kidding?
Like I thank you again everytime I listen, I just am going
to just send you, send you acheck.
Thank you so much for having meon you ask amazing questions.
You're awesome at this.
Oh, thanks so much.
Take care.
All right, bye.

Dr. Shepp (01:23:04):
This has been the moment with dr Shep.
Life is a collection of moments.
It's how you manage the momentsthat makes the difference.
My thanks again to Allie wardfor joining us for these moments
today and thank you forlistening.
Stay tuned for a preview of ournext episode.
You can subscribe to the managethe moment podcast for free just

(01:23:26):
by clicking the subscribe buttonwherever you're listening to
this podcast, and then you'll besure to get the newest episodes
as soon as they're uploaded andfor more information about
manage the moment podcast, youcan see the episode notes for
this broadcast.
You.
You'll also find us on socialmedia and I'm on Twitter and
Instagram at dr shell.
Thanks so much for listening andtaking the time to share these

(01:23:47):
moments with us.
Until next time

Speaker 6 (01:24:13):
on the next manage the moment we will hear from
Harrison funk, a photojournalist, film director and
portrait photographer of some ofthe world's most famous faces.
Yeah.
His work has been seen bybillions of people around the
globe.
I was, I was really fortunatebecause as I told you, the
stories, how I started, I wentright to the top.

(01:24:36):
You know, my clients were huge.
If you're a, if you're an artiston any claim, singer, painter,
composer, actor, it doesn'tmatter.
If you have that talent and youcan use it and you can, you can

(01:24:56):
draw on all those things thatmake talent do it.
That's next time on the managethe moment podcast.

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Alie Ward - Host of Ologies; TV Host & Correspondent; Science Communicator

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Alie Ward - Host of Ologies; TV Host & Correspondent; Science Communicator